Putin launches unconstitutional coup d'etat

[Pink Spider]

Haven't seen anything about this on here yet...

http://english.pravda.ru/main/18/88/350/14215_constitution.html

While using the war on terrorism as a mere excuse, Russian president Vladimir Putin has decided to strengthen his personal powers.

President's newly-developed plan entails that governors should no longer be elected by those people who live in the regions, but by delegates instead. President himself will provide the candidates. Political analysts are skeptical as to the fact that such drastic measures will aid to combat terrorism; they also doubt that such measures have in fact been conducted in accordance with the Constitution.

The other day, during a government"s meeting Vladimir Putin has made the following statement: "To ensure unity of the governmental authorities and a step-by-step development of federalism it is important that the Federation and its units will act together in the formation of executive governmental bodies on the territory of the Russian Federation. In this regard, I assume that high-ranking officials of the units of the Russian Federation will ought to be elected by Legislative Assemblies of those territories."

Some critics have already announced last night that those amendments to the system proposed by the president regarding regional elections appear to be contradictory to the Russian Constitution. Independent delegate of the State Duma Vladimir Ryzhkov states that Putin"s initiative deviates from the resolution passed by the Constitutional Court on 18 January 1996 according to which election of a high-rank official of any unit of the Federation by delegates of a regional parliament contradicts the Constitution. Back then, the court constituted that head of a region had to acquire his mandate from residents.

Georgy Satarov, head of the INDEM Fund states: "Thing is, Putin"s proposition concerns not only his personal relationships with the governors. There exists another, perhaps quite meaningless for Mr. Putin, but surely important detail as the Russian citizens. 55th clause of the Constitution clearly states no law significantly diminishing citizens" rights can be adopted in Russia. It appears obvious first of all that Putin simply robs Russian people of their right to vote. Second of all, there is a fundamental 3rd clause of the Russian Constitution that reads that all authority in the country belongs to the Russian people: they exercise it through delegates or by means of a referendum. It used to be that people had exercised their power through their representatives i.e. governors. But it appears that the president intends to remove them and suggest that those governors and heads of the republics became representatives of the president himself, not the people. Finally, Constitution also mentions that Russia is a federative state. Putin and the governors possess different mandates; Putin has a federal mandate, whereas the governors possess a mandate to manage Federal units. And this is where the mix up occurs, which inevitably leads to the destruction of federalism.

This is a drastic change of the country"s political system in general which will quite obviously result in rather unexpected consequences. This is in fact an unconstitutional upheaval if you want."

A source from the president"s administration presumes that the new election system will take effect only after terms of acting governors expires.
According to another source, the new system poses certain risks for Federal government and for the president. "Whereas today governors are held responsible for the situation in the regions, afterward, all those problems will strike the president directly," states the source. "As far as politics go, this move may have negative consequences for Federal government and the president in the long run."

[ODShowtime]

Well I've never seen an elected official use a terrorist attack as an excuse for a power grab before. Those Russians sure are on the vanguard of political thought.

[Pink Spider]

The terrorists obviously hated their freedom so they had to get rid of it. If it can work here...

[ODShowtime]

Yeah, that's why terrorists toss away their own lives and those of innocents. Because they hate freedom. They don't know what it means, but they hate it.

[Big Train]

so what exactly are you fishing for? I generally don't comment on the affairs of other countries (ask the canadiens around here).

[Sgt Schultz]

++Yawn++ ..oh..what? Oh, wake me up when this has anything to do with Bush.

Night night.

[Pink Spider]

So, democracy being destroyed bores you? That's all I need to know about the blind following Shrubites. Go ahead and defend the Patriot Act some more like a good little fascist worshipper.

[ODShowtime]

ouch a spider bite :)

[Sgt Schultz]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
So, democracy being destroyed bores you? That's all I need to know about the blind following Shrubites. Go ahead and defend the Patriot Act some more like a good little fascist worshipper.

No, your post headline relates this to Bush so I'm wondering just how.

You can also regale us with the complaints SPECIFICALLY related to the passage of the Patriot Act of how U.S> citizens civil rights have been violated. Be careful now.

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by Sgt Schultz
No, your post headline relates this to Bush so I'm wondering just how.

You can also regale us with the complaints SPECIFICALLY related to the passage of the Patriot Act of how U.S> citizens civil rights have been violated. Be careful now.

It's been banned from hundreds of cities. They're complaining quite nicely.

What part of this being a blatent repealment of the 4th amendment do you not understand? Are you against the constitution?

[Sgt Schultz]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
It's been banned from hundreds of cities. They're complaining quite nicely.

What part of this being a blatent repealment of the 4th amendment do you not understand? Are you against the constitution?

How are your 4th Ammendment rights being violated?

I'd much rather live in a city that has not passed meaningless resolutions about the Patriot Act which are symbolic only and waste taxpayer money.

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by Sgt Schultz
How are your 4th Ammendment rights being violated?

I'd much rather live in a city that has not passed meaningless resolutions about the Patriot Act which are symbolic only and waste taxpayer money.

Well, for one probable cause is no longer needed under the Patriot Act.
But, you should go read it for yourself to get a scope of what it does.

This is not a conservative/liberal issue to agree with because your favorite politician endorses it. This is the constitution and it's not something to take lightly.

A waste of taxpayer money? :rolleyes: The future of freedom...actual freedom, not political rhetoric is on the line here.
Real conservatives and liberals are united to stop the erosion before it's too late.

[Sgt Schultz]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
Well, for one probable cause is no longer needed under the Patriot Act.
But, you should go read it for yourself to get a scope of what it does.

This is not a conservative/liberal issue to agree with because your favorite politician endorses it. This is the constitution and it's not something to take lightly.

A waste of taxpayer money? :rolleyes: The future of freedom...actual freedom, not political rhetoric is on the line here.
Real conservatives and liberals are united to stop the erosion before it's too late.

Probable casue is still needed.

"As was true before the USA PATRIOT Act was enacted, the probable cause standard in a criminal case is probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and that the person is using the facilities sought to be monitored or searched in connection with the crime; in a foreign intelligence case, probable cause that the target is an agent of a foreign power and that the facilities sought to be monitored or searched are being used by an agent of a foreign power. In both types of investigations, probable cause must be established to obtain a wiretap order or search warrant. As was true even before the USA PATRIOT Act, lesser intrusions, such as requests for records from third parties, require a lower standard. "

And yes, the job of a city council is to pass binding measures within THEIR JURISDICTION of matters pertaining to that locality - like roads, liquor licenses, taxes etc - city councils have no business wasting taxpayer money by spending their time passing MEANINGLESS non-binding measures so that they may vent their collective spleens against the Evil Bush.

[ODShowtime]

You'd never know about real violations of the Patriot Act because they're kept secret.

[ODShowtime]

where'd you even get that quote from?

[Sgt Schultz]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
where'd you even get that quote from?

USDOJ website - yes i know, can't trust that source, right?

[ODShowtime]

Trust the real Ashcroft? Hell no. That is the worse source possible!

[Big Train]

You'd never know about real violations of the Patriot Act because they're kept secret.

Well, MOST crimes are kept secret. However, unlike the chop shop or crackhouse around the corner, real abuses of the Patriot Act are MUCH more likely to be heard about. You think if someone just disappeared talking to the Feds, the family wouldn't have something to say about it or for sure the local CBS anchorman who wants to make a name for himself?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Sgt Schultz
No, your post headline relates this to Bush so I'm wondering just how.



Well, Junior said after his first meeting with "Pooty-poot" back in 2001, that he looked into Vladdy's soul and found a kindred spirit.

And now that Putin is essentially replicating the post-terra power grab strategy from Junior (which he replicated from his granddad's buddy Adolf) it would appear that Junior was actually right about something.

They are kindred spirits after all. Two power mad fascists, using a manufactured crisis to rape democracy.

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by Sgt Schultz
Probable casue is still needed.

"As was true before the USA PATRIOT Act was enacted, the probable cause standard in a criminal case is probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed and that the person is using the facilities sought to be monitored or searched in connection with the crime; in a foreign intelligence case, probable cause that the target is an agent of a foreign power and that the facilities sought to be monitored or searched are being used by an agent of a foreign power. In both types of investigations, probable cause must be established to obtain a wiretap order or search warrant. As was true even before the USA PATRIOT Act, lesser intrusions, such as requests for records from third parties, require a lower standard. "

And yes, the job of a city council is to pass binding measures within THEIR JURISDICTION of matters pertaining to that locality - like roads, liquor licenses, taxes etc - city councils have no business wasting taxpayer money by spending their time passing MEANINGLESS non-binding measures so that they may vent their collective spleens against the Evil Bush.

Bullshit.

Section 216

"The government is now allowed to tap your phone and computer without probable cause. Under this section, a judge has NO CHOICE but to okay any warrant law enforcement certifies as surveillance "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation." No probable cause of criminal activity is required to issue the warrant. Also, The government can now serve a single wiretap on ANY person or entity nationwide, even if that person or entity is NOT named in the order. The government need not make ANY showing to a court that the particular information or communication to be acquired is relevant to any criminal investigation. This means ANYONE might have their phone tapped. This also means that the government now can spy on the internet habits of ANY American, even when not suspected of ANY crime. The government is also NOT obliged to report back to the court, OR inform YOU, at all."

Section 218

"The government to now permitted to carry out secret searches and covert wiretaps without showing probable cause. They must merely 'certify' (NOT prove) that there is a "significant" foreign intelligence purpose. This evades Americans' protection under the 4th Amendment."

http://www.welcometothepatriotact.com/means.html

[ELVIS]

Well, if it does, what illegal activity are you conducting on your phone and computer ??

You can trust me, and the government already knows, right ??

God forbid, they might actually stop a terrorist act!

Oh, I forgot. Bush is the terrorist...:rolleyes:

[Pink Spider]

The 4th amendment was to prevent the state from becoming big brother before the term was coined.

It's not about stopping terrorist acts. The Patriot Act is a form of terrorism on the citizenry itself. A police state would be effective in curbing dissent, "terrorism", etc. There's proof of that in many countries. It doesn't mean that it should come to pass.

Do you want that here?

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
The 4th amendment was to prevent the state from becoming big brother before the term was coined.

I am aware of that...

The Patriot Act is a form of terrorism on the citizenry itself.

That is just plain silly. Lookup Terrorism...

A police state would be effective in curbing dissent, "terrorism", etc. There's proof of that in many countries. It doesn't mean that it should come to pass.

Do you want that here?

No, but what this entails is a far cry from that...

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by ELVIS


I am aware of that...

Then why don't you agree with it?

That is just plain silly. Lookup Terrorism...

There is no definitive definition of terrorism. It may come to a surprise to statists, but the government can terrorize the people. They have that in the Patriot Act.

No, but what this entails is a far cry from that...

Actually, it's not. It's a big first step into becoming like that when your rights against illegal search and seizure cease to exist.

[ELVIS]

Well, I'm not saying you're wrong, just a bit extreme...

Excuse the pun...:)

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Big Train
You'd never know about real violations of the Patriot Act because they're kept secret.

Well, MOST crimes are kept secret. However, unlike the chop shop or crackhouse around the corner, real abuses of the Patriot Act are MUCH more likely to be heard about. You think if someone just disappeared talking to the Feds, the family wouldn't have something to say about it or for sure the local CBS anchorman who wants to make a name for himself?

That's a good point, but I would imagine that a lot of the people who would dissappear were foriegners whose families wouldn't have a say in the US.

The bottom line is that power is made to be abused. When given new powers, authority stretches it as far as they can. Then there's no way left to get the freedom back.

[Sgt Schultz]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
Bullshit.

Section 216

"The government is now allowed to tap your phone and computer without probable cause. Under this section, a judge has NO CHOICE but to okay any warrant law enforcement certifies as surveillance "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation." No probable cause of criminal activity is required to issue the warrant. Also, The government can now serve a single wiretap on ANY person or entity nationwide, even if that person or entity is NOT named in the order. The government need not make ANY showing to a court that the particular information or communication to be acquired is relevant to any criminal investigation. This means ANYONE might have their phone tapped. This also means that the government now can spy on the internet habits of ANY American, even when not suspected of ANY crime. The government is also NOT obliged to report back to the court, OR inform YOU, at all."

Section 218

"The government to now permitted to carry out secret searches and covert wiretaps without showing probable cause. They must merely 'certify' (NOT prove) that there is a "significant" foreign intelligence purpose. This evades Americans' protection under the 4th Amendment."

http://www.welcometothepatriotact.com/means.html

Sorry, but I'm going to go with the DOJ source, you can stick with your left wing kook source.

[Sgt Schultz]

Originally posted by FORD
Well, Junior said after his first meeting with "Pooty-poot" back in 2001, that he looked into Vladdy's soul and found a kindred spirit.

And now that Putin is essentially replicating the post-terra power grab strategy from Junior (which he replicated from his granddad's buddy Adolf) it would appear that Junior was actually right about something.

They are kindred spirits after all. Two power mad fascists, using a manufactured crisis to rape democracy.

None of what you wrote means squat. Try something concrete, plausible, verifiable etc.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
Bullshit.

Section 216

"The government is now allowed to tap your phone and computer without probable cause. Under this section, a judge has NO CHOICE but to okay any warrant law enforcement certifies as surveillance "relevant to an ongoing criminal investigation." No probable cause of criminal activity is required to issue the warrant.
http://www.welcometothepatriotact.com/means.html

The distinction between the world "terrorist" and "criminal" in this passage cannot be ignored. This act was passed to prevent terrorism, or at least that's how they billed it. But using the word "criminal" means that these new powers will extend to all law enforcement. This bill was meant to be around for a long time and to have powers far broader than checking to see if Ibrahim d/l'd the Anarchist Cookbook at the local library.

And Elvis, for the record, there are plenty of things that are against the law in the US that are not morally wrong or harmful to society.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
That's a good point, but I would imagine that a lot of the people who would dissappear were foriegners whose families wouldn't have a say in the US.

The bottom line is that power is made to be abused. When given new powers, authority stretches it as far as they can. Then there's no way left to get the freedom back.

There is a distinction here then. If they are foreigners, they aren't having there Constitutional rights taken away, as they don't have any.

There is a certain fear here that I find very odd, not just from you, but from all opposed to the act. The ACLU makes it out to seem like we are giving the government the power to control us, which is just silly.People going missing in the night, is just another bogeyman theory.

As far as what the act actually states and does, I'm with Schultz, stick with the DOJ version, not the scare em sites.

[ODShowtime]

A couple of years into it is when we'll really start to see abuses. They won't abuse it when it still has an expiration date, right? Just like how the Marines cannot assault Fallujah until after the election.

This whole waiting to do shit until after the election is disturbing. At least IF bush gets elected there will be some very bitter "I told you so's".

[wraytw]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
A couple of years into it is when we'll really start to see abuses.

Silly assumptions don't put forth productive debate.

[ELVIS]

He's related to Mr's Cleo...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by wraytw
Silly assumptions don't put forth productive debate.


The Bill of Rights was created because our founding fathers assumed, and rightly so, that gov't would trample people's rights if it was given a chance. It's been proven thoughout history with every regime ever created. I guess that's not a good enough example. You think our country is different. THAT'S ONLY BECAUSE OF OUR CONSTITION AND OUR BILL OF RIGHTS. There is nothing inherently better about a person born in the US as opposed to China or where ever.

You need to learn more about basic human nature and less about the bullshit that the Bush PR machine puts out. Your little brainwashed nipping at my heels shows where you reside in the grand scheme of things - near the bottom.

And Elvis, oh enlightened one, it's Miss Cleo. She deserves more respect than that, she was in Vice City :). Why don't you post something useful and debate some of the shit I was spouting in this thread or another? I directly addressed you last night and you never replied. I'm not here to piss on your parade, but ruffling feathers is what makes this shit fun, which is the whole point. All you want is for everyone in here to agree with you.

[wraytw]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
You need to learn more about basic human nature and less about the bullshit that the Bush PR machine puts out. Your little brainwashed nipping at my heels shows where you reside in the grand scheme of things - near the bottom.

See what I mean about silly little assumptions? :) If you knew where I stood on every issue, I think your tone would mosty certainly change. But, as I pointed out, you just assume that because I'm to the right on one particular issue, I'm automatically "brainwashed by the Bush admin."

Frankly, I think you're just pissed off because I think you're an idiot.

[ODShowtime]

Frankly, I don't care about your opinion.

[wraytw]

Then why are you even engaged in these debates with me? Grow some hair on your balls and take things for what they are.

If you don't want to be called out on being an ignorant fool, then stop playing the part. :)

[ODShowtime]

Wray, I already told you, it appears to me that you either don't have the information or the brain capacity to properly understand the points I'm trying to make. What else can I do? "Ignorant fool" is not an accurate description of me.

"You have no frame of reference, you're like a child wandering into the middle of a movie..."

[FORD]

Originally posted by wraytw


If you don't want to be called out on being an ignorant fool.....

....Turn off FAUX News and Clear Channel radio and learn what's really going on in the world. :)

[wraytw]

I didn't expect you to think so, OD. You display your lack of critical thought more than enough.

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by Sgt Schultz
Sorry, but I'm going to go with the DOJ source, you can stick with your left wing kook source.

You go right to the official propaganda, the most biased source possible and don't question it. Yeah, like OD pointed out, John Ashcroft and his followers are such a reliable source of information. :rolleyes:

[ODShowtime]

The real John Ashcroft has no scruples man. NONE.

[Big Train]

Why are the actual statements from the doj the "most biased" source? Do think if a court case ever came around that they would quote the ACLU or some random blogger as the "truth"? I would like to think any competent lawyer would look at the actual language in the documents and make their case based on that.

[ODShowtime]

You're right.

I'm concerned because all the real problems I have with the Patriot Act occur before you ever make it to court.