Who Do You Think Will Win..and By How Much

[scorpioboy33]

Unfort. I think Bush will win by 10 points......

[Switch84]

:confused: :p Why would Bush being re-elected be 'unfortunate'? Slick Willie wasn't such a stellar Prez, either, but his good qualities (and I use the term loosely) outweighed the bad, and his bitch-ass was re-elected!


Jesus, I NEED SOME COFFEE!!!!! It's too early in the morning for political football without a cup of joe...


LMMFAOBT!

[ELVIS]

It's spelled u n f o r t u n a t e l y...

And yes, Bush will win, but by a lesser margin, I'm guessing four points...


:elvis:

[BigBadBrian]

Bush will win by a comfortable margin. :gulp:

[Dr. Love]

Bush will win, I believe. I also agree that it's unfortunate he'll win, but I only think it's unfortunate because there's aren't any better choices (or even a variety of choices) to choose from other than Bush.

[Switch84]

Originally posted by Dr. Love
Bush will win, I believe. I also agree that it's unfortunate he'll win, but I only think it's unfortunate because there's aren't any better choices (or even a variety of choices) to choose from other than Bush.



;) DAVID LEE ROTH FOR PRESIDENT!!!!


LMMFAOBT! Wouldn't THAT be wild?

[Cathedral]

Bush will win by such a large margin in most states that i predict a landslide victory.

Pack your bags, border jumpers, it's gonna be a long 4 years for you.
But when that time is over there will be such a sense of pride restored to this country, you'll come back saying how wrong you were for ever supporting a man like Kerry,er, a, opposing a man like Bush.

I wouldn't vote for Kerry simply based on his choice of spouses, and we all know that was a business move for Kery anyhoo.

His focus group advised him not to let that "thing" get away.
First Lady material, she ain't, period...

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Cathedral
you'll come back saying how wrong you were for ever supporting a man like Kerry,er, a, opposing a man like Bush.



No they won't...

Only real men and women with integrity admit when they are wrong...

[FORD]

In a legitimate election, Junior wouldn't have a prayer. Fraud will be widespread on the part of the traitorous neocon shitbags, and the results will be very close. I sincerely pray that they do not succeed, or America as we know it is truly dead.

That fucking moron has done NOTHING worthy of being elected. His foreign policy has been a failure. His domestic policy is the worst since Herbert Hoover. The deaths of at least 4000 Americans and about 30,000 foreign civilians can be laid directly at his feet.

The bastard belongs in Hell, not in the White House.

[Sgt Schultz]

Seriously FORD, what will you do if Bush wins? Inquiring minds want to know.............

Isn't the Unabomber's shack still available?

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS

Only real men and women with integrity admit when they are wrong...

And that says it all about Junior, who has never admitted a mistake in his fucking worthless life.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Sgt Schultz
Seriously FORD, what will you do if Bush wins? Inquiring minds want to know.............

Isn't the Unabomber's shack still available?

I can't wrap my mind around that horror enough to plan just yet. Let's hope I don't have to.

[DrMaddVibe]

Oh...you will!

Start digging your hole!

[YEAHIMROTH!]

YEAH! DAVID LEE ROTH IS WASHED UP! YEAH!

[Sgt Schultz]

Originally posted by FORD
I can't wrap my mind around that horror enough to plan just yet. Let's hope I don't have to.

Well hopefully you won't have to be on suicide watch.

[FORD]

Originally posted by YEAHIMROTH!
YEAH! DAVID LEE ROTH IS WASHED UP! YEAH!

Three people are washed up, sheep.

1) Sammy Hagar
2) George Bush
3) Yourself

Only one of those 3 is relevant to THIS forum. Please keep that in mind, thank you.

[DrMaddVibe]

Ford...a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

I'll "loan" you some to get you over the hump though!

[Warham]

Bush will win by 5% points.

[FORD]

I'd seriously like to know how you Busheep really believe Junior can legitimately win.

Remember that he LOST last time.

Since then, he's pissed off several core Republican constituencies, from Fiscal Conservatives, to "Big Government haters", to Buchanan/Barr type non-interventionists who have called him out on Iraq and the PNAC agenda, to the more rabid of the religious reich who don't think he's done enough to oppress homosexuals, even to some of his corporate boosters who know that 4 more years of a BCE economy will even hurt them, and yes, even the military who are understandably feeling betrayed by a Commander in Thief who won't keep his word on when a contracted committment ends.

Now I'm not going to say that every member of every one of those constituencies is going to defect, but for someone who is already behind by a half million votes anyway (based on 2000) he obviously has NONE to spare from his own side.

Add in the wayward "Democrats" who in a momentary lapse of judgment voted Junior over Gore. They won't be making that mistake again (except for Zell Miller and Ed Krotch and who gives a fuck what they think).

Add the majority of the Nader voters from 2000, who still aren't happy with the DLC direction of the Democratic party (who is?) but will vote to remove Junior and the BCE, knowing that things can only get worse.

Add voters who either went with other minor parties or sat out in 2000. They may not all show up, but even a small percentage of them is enough to make a difference.

Simple mathematics. There is no way that Junior can win a legitimate election. Fuck the polls, stick with a calculator.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by FORD
I'd seriously like to know how you Busheep really believe Junior can legitimately win.

Remember that he LOST last time.



Damn, I was seriously hoping you'd have given up this argument by now.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Damn, I was seriously hoping you'd have given up this argument by now.

Give up what? Numbers don't lie......

http://logo.cafepress.com/3/2952.9793.gif

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by ELVIS
No they won't...

Only real men and women with integrity admit when they are wrong...

Elvis, do you understand how ironic that sounds coming from a bush supporter?

[Warham]

1. You libs need to learn how the electoral college works.

2. Al Gore had Bill Clinton's 'feel-good' administration effect his candidacy. Since all those soccer moms loved Clinton because he was so charismatic, they probably voted for Gore. Kerry is not charismatic. In fact, he's anti-charismatic.

3. You libs need to realize that fraud can occur on both sides in an election. Kennedy won in 1960 due to voter tampering in Chicago, Bush won in Florida despite the fact that Democrats had registered in both New York and Florida, and that CBS and other liberal-leaning networks had called the state for Gore BEFORE the fucking polls closed, causing voters in the Republican-heavy panhandle to be disenfranchised.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by FORD
Give up what? Numbers don't lie......


No, numbers don't lie, but you do. Repeatedly.

Bush lost the popular vote, but he won the electoral vote, which is the only thing that matters under the law.

Admit that, and you'll earn back some of the respect I once had for you. :)

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by FORD
I'd seriously like to know how you Busheep really believe Junior can legitimately win.

Remember that he LOST last time.

Since then, he's pissed off several core Republican constituencies, from Fiscal Conservatives, to "Big Government haters", to Buchanan/Barr type non-interventionists who have called him out on Iraq and the PNAC agenda, to the more rabid of the religious reich who don't think he's done enough to oppress homosexuals, even to some of his corporate boosters who know that 4 more years of a BCE economy will even hurt them, and yes, even the military who are understandably feeling betrayed by a Commander in Thief who won't keep his word on when a contracted committment ends.

Now I'm not going to say that every member of every one of those constituencies is going to defect, but for someone who is already behind by a half million votes anyway (based on 2000) he obviously has NONE to spare from his own side.

Add in the wayward "Democrats" who in a momentary lapse of judgment voted Junior over Gore. They won't be making that mistake again (except for Zell Miller and Ed Krotch and who gives a fuck what they think).

Add the majority of the Nader voters from 2000, who still aren't happy with the DLC direction of the Democratic party (who is?) but will vote to remove Junior and the BCE, knowing that things can only get worse.

Add voters who either went with other minor parties or sat out in 2000. They may not all show up, but even a small percentage of them is enough to make a difference.

Simple mathematics. There is no way that Junior can win a legitimate election. Fuck the polls, stick with a calculator.

Don't forget the millions of people who never voted before and are not being polled at all...

[FORD]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
No, numbers don't lie, but you do. Repeatedly.

Bush lost the popular vote, but he won the electoral vote, which is the only thing that matters under the law.

Admit that, and you'll earn back some of the respect I once had for you. :)

Sorry, the only vote Junior actually "won" is a 5-4 split of the Supreme Court. And even that was rigged.

The electoral vote was not legitmate in Florida because the Katherine Harris "certification" was not a complete vote count, which she, as BCE campaign chair knew very well - and was very well rewarded for, with a congressional seat, no less.

And one thing nobody can call me is a liar.

[DrMaddVibe]

LIAR!

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by FORD
And one thing nobody can call me is a liar.

"Liar" may be too strong of a word in this case. "Hopelessly deluded" works, however. ;)

[FORD]

There's no delusion at all in saying that Junior "won" a 5-4 vote of the Supreme Court. The fair thing to do would be to have eliminated Florida entirely from the electoral count if the ballots could not be counted in time.

[Warham]

That's disenfranchising Florida though, FORD. We can't do that. There's 50 states in the Union, not 49...and counting.

[diamondD]

Yes, there's plenty of delusion involved by not saying Bush won the last election. You can't prove shit about a rigged court and if it had been 5-4 in favor of Gore, you'd still be bragging about it. Just as delusional as the BCE hacking your PC, accusing people of being Carl Rove agents sent here, etc, etc, ect...

[FORD]

Originally posted by diamondD
Yes, there's plenty of delusion involved by not saying Bush won the last election. You can't prove shit about a rigged court and if it had been 5-4 in favor of Gore, you'd still be bragging about it. Just as delusional as the BCE hacking your PC, accusing people of being Carl Rove agents sent here, etc, etc, ect...

Not a valid speculation, Jeff...

See, it's not entirely conclusive evidence to say that an IP trace to Langley Virginia is the work of the CIA, but it's a damn good guess, given their presence in the area.

On the other hand, it IS a fact that the 5 Supreme Court "justices" who voted for Junior were appointed by BCE administrations. There's no disputing that at all.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
See, it's not entirely conclusive evidence to say that an IP trace to Langley Virginia is the work of the CIA, but it's a damn good guess, given their presence in the area.



You're psycho...

What time do the debates start ??

[Warham]

9 PM.

Those justices that the BCE have 'installed' have voted too liberal for my tastes.

If they were with the BCE agenda, they would've voted that way more than they have.

[FORD]

Poppy probably regrets the Souter nomination (the only BCE appointee NOT to join the Coup 2K) but the rest have pretty much towed the party line most of the time.

[lms2]

Originally posted by FORD
In a legitimate election, Junior wouldn't have a prayer. Fraud will be widespread on the part of the traitorous neocon shitbags, and the results will be very close. I sincerely pray that they do not succeed, or America as we know it is truly dead.

You say this, and you know its true, but yet you believe that America as we know it is not already dead? Rock the vote... it ain't gonna matter, but at least the fakers will have to work for it. Bush will win because Kerry is not the man who will bring about change in the fact of the above statement.


That fucking moron has done NOTHING worthy of being elected. His foreign policy has been a failure. His domestic policy is the worst since Herbert Hoover. The deaths of at least 4000 Americans and about 30,000 foreign civilians can be laid directly at his feet.

Policy in times of war suck. Bush will be around to get it straightened out, well, as straight as it has been in my lifetime, but you will still not give him any credit.


The bastard belongs in Hell, not in the White House.

His time will come.

Remember the election prophecies last election time about whether or not Bush would be assassainated?

[John Ashcroft]

Originally posted by FORD
Poppy probably regrets the Souter nomination (the only BCE appointee NOT to join the Coup 2K) but the rest have pretty much towed the party line most of the time.

Dude, you know that's not true. I've posted a story on the Supreme Court's ruling record, and it's 75% in toe with liberal ideology. Don't pretend you didn't read it either, because you responded.

[diamondD]

Originally posted by FORD
Here's a wild speculation, Jeff...

See, it's not entirely conclusive evidence to say that an IP trace to Langley Virginia is the work of the CIA, but it's a damn good guess, given their presence in the area.

It's also a well known fact that a lot of internet traffic is routed thru there, so you didn't even make a good guess, just a paranoid, tin-foil beenie wearing one.


On the other hand, it IS a fact that the 5 Supreme Court "justices" who voted for Junior were appointed by BCE administrations. There's no disputing that at all.

Guitar Shark's proven you completely wrong on this one as well. Just saying it over and over doesn't make it so. DAVE. ;)

[lms2]

Happy Birthday Diamond D.

[Rikk]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
No, numbers don't lie, but you do. Repeatedly.

Bush lost the popular vote, but he won the electoral vote, which is the only thing that matters under the law.

Admit that, and you'll earn back some of the respect I once had for you. :)

C'mon Sharky. This is friendly debate. FORD is a good guy.

I have to agree with Ford. But not on the popular vote section. I believe it's the law to that a President only wins by the Electoral vote. Of course, it does tell me that if Bush lost by popular vote, something is a little wrong with the system.

But I think it's also very hard to deny that tampering in Florida gave Bush that election. That was an illegal win.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Rikk
C'mon Sharky. This is friendly debate. FORD is a good guy.

I have to agree with Ford. But not on the popular vote section. I believe it's the law to that a President only wins by the Electoral vote. Of course, it does tell me that if Bush lost by popular vote, something is a little wrong with the system.

But I think it's also very hard to deny that tampering in Florida gave Bush that election. That was an illegal win.

I have attended concerts with FORD and have enjoyed beers with him. Have you? I agree, FORD is a good guy and I have nothing against him personally. He's hilarious in person, and often misunderstood on these boards.

I just get frustrated when he's been proven wrong time and time again on an issue, and he refuses to back down. I gave him the opportunity to acknowledge that at least part of his statement was a falsehood, but he declined the opportunity. He keeps spouting incorrect information as "fact," perhaps hoping that the truth will get obscured simply because those of us who care get tired of correcting him. It reminds me in many ways of a certain someone that you had a hand in removing from this site. (Which, btw, I would never advocate in FORD's case.)

I'll take your comments about the 2000 election with a grain of salt, given your Canadian citizenship. ;) That said, I agree with you that any electoral system is fucked up if it allows the winner to be anyone other than the person who received the most votes. I even wrote my dissertation on that very issue in college. But that's the system we operate under, and I don't agree that "tampering" played a role in the Florida election. You can probably point to isolated cases, but that happens in every election and frankly it goes both ways. There was nothing illegal about it here. You may disagree with the Supreme Court's reasoning but they had a basis for the decision they made.

And before you jump to any conclusions about my motives, you should know that I am voting for Kerry. I have never voted for Bush and never will. :cool:

[Warham]

Originally posted by Rikk
C'mon Sharky. This is friendly debate. FORD is a good guy.

I have to agree with Ford. But not on the popular vote section. I believe it's the law to that a President only wins by the Electoral vote. Of course, it does tell me that if Bush lost by popular vote, something is a little wrong with the system.

But I think it's also very hard to deny that tampering in Florida gave Bush that election. That was an illegal win.

Clipped from another site:

But something else played a hand in the fiasco of Election 2000: CBS News calling Florida for Al Gore at 7:50pm. Yes, the polls were closed in Florida's eastern time zone, but the votes hadn't been tabulated. Worse yet, the polls were still open in Florida's central time-zone panhandle! There, not a single vote had been tabulated. Over a half a million voters, from Pensacola to Panama City had not been heard from. For these people, the election was still very much in progress and with Rather claiming, for nearly an hour, that Florida was "too close to call", how on earth could he be calling Florida for Gore? Research conducted afterwards indicates that the blunderous calling of Florida for Gore cost Bush, in the panhandle, around 10,000 votes. But let's always focus on the voter "disenfranchisement race-baiting" angle. Nothing smells so liberal like the whipping out of the race card.

[diamondD]

Originally posted by lms2
Happy Birthday Diamond D.

Hey, just saw that, thanks! :)

[John Ashcroft]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
I have attended concerts with FORD and have enjoyed beers with him. Have you? I agree, FORD is a good guy and I have nothing against him personally. He's hilarious in person, and often misunderstood on these boards.

I just get frustrated when he's been proven wrong time and time again on an issue, and he refuses to back down. I gave him the opportunity to acknowledge that at least part of his statement was a falsehood, but he declined the opportunity. He keeps spouting incorrect information as "fact," perhaps hoping that the truth will get obscured simply because those of us who care get tired of correcting him. It reminds me in many ways of a certain someone that you had a hand in removing from this site. (Which, btw, I would never advocate in FORD's case.)

I'll take your comments about the 2000 election with a grain of salt, given your Canadian citizenship. ;) That said, I agree with you that any electoral system is fucked up if it allows the winner to be anyone other than the person who received the most votes. I even wrote my dissertation on that very issue in college. But that's the system we operate under, and I don't agree that "tampering" played a role in the Florida election. You can probably point to isolated cases, but that happens in every election and frankly it goes both ways. There was nothing illegal about it here. You may disagree with the Supreme Court's reasoning but they had a basis for the decision they made.

And before you jump to any conclusions about my motives, you should know that I am voting for Kerry. I have never voted for Bush and never will. :cool:

Hey GS, dittos to a bunch of what you just said.

But you do know that Bush also won the popular vote too, don't ya? If you did a dissertation on the subject, then you know very well that in most states, absentee ballots weren't even counted (because the margin of victory made it unneccessary). For example, California's absentee ballots weren't counted. Do you know how many that is? Do you know how many military personnel based in California vote absentee? Do you know the typical voting patterns of military voters?

Check your dissertation, because I'm quite sure it's all in there. So you already must know Bush also won the popular vote. ;)

[scorpioboy33]

hi ford not sure who you think will win it?

[DrMaddVibe]

Bush in a landslide victory.

[FORD]

Originally posted by scorpioboy33
hi ford not sure who you think will win it?

The only way Bush can "win" is through fraudulent means or by cancelling the election via a staged "terrorist attack".

Bush got less votes than Gore last time (I won't use the term "lost" because it offends the lawyers) Since then he has lost votes from all of the traditional Republican supporting constituencies, and certainly has not caused any Democrats to cross over to his camp. That alone makes it mathematically impossible for Bush to win this election.

Of the Republicans who left Bush, it's logical to conclude that 75% of them will vote for Kerry, and the others may vote for another rightist minor party (Libertarians, US Taxpayers, Constitution, etc) This is due to the practical reality of the duopoly system - whether we like it or not.

So subtract more votes for Bush and add them to Kerry's column.

Now take those people who voted for Nader in 2000. From what I have heard, 8 out of 10 of those voters have said they will vote for Kerry this time. Nader's average in 2000 was about 3.5% of the vote, which sounds like a small number, but in terms of an election which was decided within less than 1%, as 2000 was, it is indeed significant.

And then there's the people who sat out 2000 entirely. Some of them might have sat out previous elections as well. Because they haven't been on voter lists, they haven't been counted as "likely voters" by the pollsters. Obviously these people will not be voting for Bush. Again, this may not be a huge number, but one can hope. Because if the last three years didn't wake up the 50% of eligible voters who sat out the last election, I don't know what will. But for now, let's assume that even 25% of those people are driven to action, and removal of the BCE.

The potential for a Kerry Landslide is quite obvious. The potential for a Bush Landslide is entirely non existent except through the means of electrofraud manipulation.

[Wayne L.]

I think George W. Bush will defeat John Kerry by about 4 or 5 points in the presidential election with Kerry VP John Edwards going into obscurity.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Hey GS, dittos to a bunch of what you just said.

But you do know that Bush also won the popular vote too, don't ya? If you did a dissertation on the subject, then you know very well that in most states, absentee ballots weren't even counted (because the margin of victory made it unneccessary). For example, California's absentee ballots weren't counted. Do you know how many that is? Do you know how many military personnel based in California vote absentee? Do you know the typical voting patterns of military voters?

Check your dissertation, because I'm quite sure it's all in there. So you already must know Bush also won the popular vote. ;)

My paper was about the electoral college (I advocated abandoning it entirely), not the 2000 vote. I graduated from college in 1992 so it would have been kinda tough. ;)

Are you contending that Bush would have won California if the absentee ballots were counted (assuming they weren't)? Bwahaha, think again buddy. :D

[Guitar Shark]

Oh, and happy birthday diamondD. Sorry man, had no idea. :cool:

[DrMaddVibe]

Several elections have tested the Electoral College system. The first contested election was that of 1800 when both Thomas Jefferson and his running mate, Aaron Burr, received 73 electoral votes, throwing the election into the House of Representatives. (After 36 ballots, the House chose Jefferson.) The consequence of the 1800 election was the 12th Amendment, providing that electors vote separately for president and vice-president. The 1824 election saw a four-way split of electoral votes, with the House eventually choosing John Quincy Adams as president even though Andrew Jackson had received more electoral votes. The 1876 election was a true mess, with disputes over which slates of electors had won in four different states. The final determination as to which slates of electors had in fact been elected was made on an 8-7 vote by a congressional commission. The commission's decision gave Rutherford Hayes 185 electoral votes and the presidency. The winner of the popular vote, Samuel Tilden, finished with 184 electoral votes. (One cost of the 1876 election was the end of Reconstruction: to win Democrats' acceptance of the commission's decision, Republicans agreed to withdraw troops from the South, effectively trading the presidency for the disenfranchisement of blacks.) In 1888, Republican Benjamin Harrison lost the popular vote to Grover Cleveland, but won narrowly in the Electoral College. Then, in 2000, trouble brewed again when electoral victory hinged upon a terribly close and challenged fight for Florida's 25 electoral votes.

The fight for Florida's votes went twice to the U. S. Supreme Court. In the first case, Bush v Palm Beach, the Court vacated and remanded a Florida Supreme Court decision extending the deadline for certification. The Court wanted to know whether the Florida Court had reached its decision by interpreting legislative intent (permissible, the Court said) or instead had relied on its interpretation of the Florida Constitution (which would be a violation of Article II, which delegates to State Legislatures the power to determine how electors are selected.) In the second case, Bush v Gore, the Supreme Court effectively determined the outcome of the presidential race by reversing a Florida Supreme Court decision ordering a statewide recount of undervotes. The Court majority found that the recount scheme violated the Equal Protection Clause. Five justices went on to interpret Florida law as preferring a final certification by December 12 (the deadline for falling within the so-called "safe harbor" protection) to a more accurate recount by December 18 (the date that electors actually vote). That interpretation of Florida law by the five most conservative members of the Court handed the presidency to Gov. Bush, since the opinion was released at 10 pm on December 11 and no recount by the 12th was possible.

[John Ashcroft]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Are you contending that Bush would have won California if the absentee ballots were counted (assuming they weren't)? Bwahaha, think again buddy. :D

No no no... Not at all. Bush losing California by a wide enough margin to warrarnt not counting absentee ballots is my entire point. In fact, of the states he lost, most of them were by a wide enough margin that the absentee ballot count absolutely couldn't hand the state to him. Remember, with the Electoral College, it's winner take all. So, there's no need to count ballots that can't swing the state (for instance, if Bush lost California by a million votes (non-absentee), and there are only 800,000 total absentee ballots, there's simply no point in counting them). This is exactly what happened. But of those 800,000 uncounted absentee ballots in California alone, statistically speaking Bush would've gotten at least 500,000, probably closer to 650,000 judging by the past voting tendencies of absentee voters (I.E. military men and women). So what margin do the "Bush lost the popular vote" crowd claim? 500,000 and change? If the absentee ballots were counted in California alone, algore would most definitely have come out on bottom.

All I'm saying is that the myth that Bush lost the popular vote is just that, a myth. But it's all the liberals seem to have left to hang on to. They sure as hell don't offer any reason to vote for them, just against Republicans (and Bush in particular).

Oh, and not having a time machine available for your dissertation is no excuse! :D

[DLRDUDE]

Bush rules! One of the first things out of Kerry's mouth when he chose Edward's as his running mate was "now we'll get some neat hair in the White House" something to that effect. What a shmuck:rolleyes: In my opinion I don't feel that Bush will be given enough credit for what he has done or for what his plans were when he was elected. Only so much you can do when your country has been attacked. Yes, the focus was on Bin Laden but couldn't find him or so they say. Going after Saddam has always been on the "to do" list so that's where they went. Folks say GW only did that to finish what pops didn't get done. It's a fight on terror, plain and simple. Sure I wake up and see the awful things that are happening in Iraq but that is the time we live in. Anyway, Kerry voted for the war in Iraq and now he wants to retract it. Says it was a mistake. Just makes me wonder if I want a Commander-in-Chief that can't make up his mind. What if he pushed that lil red button sending nukes somewhere and thought Hmmh? maybe I shouldn't have done that.:rolleyes:

[DeadOrAlive]

A vote for you DLRDUDE!

[Rikk]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
I have attended concerts with FORD and have enjoyed beers with him. Have you? I agree, FORD is a good guy and I have nothing against him personally. He's hilarious in person, and often misunderstood on these boards.

I just get frustrated when he's been proven wrong time and time again on an issue, and he refuses to back down. I gave him the opportunity to acknowledge that at least part of his statement was a falsehood, but he declined the opportunity. He keeps spouting incorrect information as "fact," perhaps hoping that the truth will get obscured simply because those of us who care get tired of correcting him. It reminds me in many ways of a certain someone that you had a hand in removing from this site. (Which, btw, I would never advocate in FORD's case.)

I'll take your comments about the 2000 election with a grain of salt, given your Canadian citizenship. ;) That said, I agree with you that any electoral system is fucked up if it allows the winner to be anyone other than the person who received the most votes. I even wrote my dissertation on that very issue in college. But that's the system we operate under, and I don't agree that "tampering" played a role in the Florida election. You can probably point to isolated cases, but that happens in every election and frankly it goes both ways. There was nothing illegal about it here. You may disagree with the Supreme Court's reasoning but they had a basis for the decision they made.

And before you jump to any conclusions about my motives, you should know that I am voting for Kerry. I have never voted for Bush and never will. :cool:

A few things:

1) A great many things FORD posts are, in fact, true. And people will jump on him because they don't want to believe that their government would even conceive of doing something corrupt. So they claim that FORD is just "lying again" and, eventually, people feel that's the proper conclusion. Anyone who doesn't see the unbelievable corruption that's existed in the last handful of Republican governments should get a reality check. This isn't utopia we're living in. And it certainly ain't the best version of democracy one could picture. America is a good country...and a powerful one. But that doesn't make it flawless. And that doesn't take away the fact that America has done a great many disgusting things in this world, some of which have gained it enemies (not that the enemies are necessarily right either). What's more believable? The government is perfectly moral and always right OR the government will often do things that will benefit the actual politicians? Funny how people will almost always state that "politicians are scubmags", but once you actually throw a case or two in front of them, they refuse to believe it.

2) Who cares if I've had beer or not? Our personal relationships here have nothing to do with the rights or wrongs in debate.

3) I am an American citizen, actually.

4) I used to believe there was no tampering in Florida myself, until I saw forms with little rulings signed by Jeb Bush or his cohorts, finding an excuse to leave some region (with high minority population) out of the vote count. I don't believe what happened in Florida was honest. And I hope that asshole Jeb Bush doesn't get away with that crap again.

We're just debating here. I think you're a stellar guy, SHARKY! You know that.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Rikk
A few things:

1) A great many things FORD posts are, in fact, true. And people will jump on him because they don't want to believe that their government would even conceive of doing something corrupt. So they claim that FORD is just "lying again" and, eventually, people feel that's the proper conclusion. Anyone who doesn't see the unbelievable corruption that's existed in the last handful of Republican governments should get a reality check. This isn't utopia we're living in. And it certainly ain't the best version of democracy one could picture. America is a good country...and a powerful one. But that doesn't make it flawless. And that doesn't take away the fact that America has done a great many disgusting things in this world, some of which have gained it enemies (not that the enemies are necessarily right either). What's more believable? The government is perfectly moral and always right OR the government will often do things that will benefit the actual politicians? Funny how people will almost always state that "politicians are scubmags", but once you actually throw a case or two in front of them, they refuse to believe it.

2) Who cares if I've had beer or not? Our personal relationships here have nothing to do with the rights or wrongs in debate.

3) I am an American citizen, actually.

4) I used to believe there was no tampering in Florida myself, until I saw forms with little rulings signed by Jeb Bush or his cohorts, finding an excuse to leave some region (with high minority population) out of the vote count. I don't believe what happened in Florida was honest. And I hope that asshole Jeb Bush doesn't get away with that crap again.

We're just debating here. I think you're a stellar guy, SHARKY! You know that.

I agree that some of what FORD posts is fact. A lot of it, however, is opinion passed off as fact.

There's a big difference between a "sheep" who believes everything the government says, and a person who rejects anything and everything the government says if that government is of the opposite political party. FORD generally falls into the latter category. I fall somewhere in the middle, like most people do.

So do you drink beer or not? If so, let me know if you're ever up this way and I'll buy you one. Hell, maybe FORD will drive up from Olympia, assuming he's not buried by Mt. St. Helens ash from a freak easterly wind... :D

[Warham]

So the Clinton Administration wasn't corrupt in any way?

[Rikk]

Originally posted by Warham
So the Clinton Administration wasn't corrupt in any way?

Hell, of course they were. Very. But I do believe that administration had the long-term interests of the country in mind much more than this administration does.

What I can't stand is this attitude I see a lot in here that when someone questions or criticizes their government, they are bad and should leave the country. Or they should shut up and leave it to the Americans that love Bush. That's bullshit. It's those that feel one shouldn't question or criticize the President that are doing more harm. Democracy is based on leaders being accountable and not lying. Leaders should be criticized. There's too much at stake for them not to be. And if your leaders are lying to you because they've done something wrong, that's a big deal when you're dealing with the economy and global interests of a country like the United States. Freedom is about questioning your government and everybody being allowed to have an opinion. Those that wish other people would just shut up and leave the President alone are missing the whole point of democracy.

I've even heard the argument that America is a Republic, not a democracy. First off, when were the two mutually exclusive. Second, if you really mean that, I guess you don't agree with the freedoms America claims it is based on.

[John Ashcroft]

So why does the Democratic party propose at every opportunity feeding this untrustworthy government???

I share with you a general mistrust of Government, period. But the left side of the aisle want's to expand government control into healthcare and the market. They want to feed the beast with more tax money collected from you and I (and not them, check the facts on Edward's and Kerry's tax records if you don't believe me. They're taking advantage of every loop hole they can. In fact, it's reported that Theresa Kerry's effective tax rate is 15%...)

You mistrust government, great. But why would you ever empower the proponents of it's growth? Do you really trust the government with handling your health care?

And Rikk. We are a Republic. Thomas Jefferson was not fond of Democracies at all. In his words: "Democracy is three wolves and a lamb voting on what's for dinner". We are a Republic by design. And it's the best design for government ever devised by human kind. The problem is, we've figured out a way to vote ourselves money from the Treasury.

Another quote, this time from Alexander Tyler about the fall of the Athenian Republic:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's great civilizations has been two hundred years. These nations have progressed through the following sequence: from bondage to spiritual faith, from spiritual faith to great courage, from courage to liberty, from liberty to abundance, from abundance to selfishness, from selfishness to complacency from complacency to apathy, from apathy to dependency, from dependency back to bondage."

Wonder where Hillary would put us?

[FORD]

Originally posted by John Ashcroft

Another quote, this time from Alexander Tyler about the fall of the Athenian Republic:

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship. "

Wonder where Hillary would put us?

Hillary? I think you had better read that quote again and realize that the BCE and their corporatist-fascist friends have done exactly that - raided the public treasury for their personal profit leading us into a dictatorship in all but name.

[rustoffa]

Here we go.

I'm on ABC for no particular reason.

"Now reporting....Peter Jennings".

:monkey: :elvis: