This debate was probably a DRAW.....

[BigBadBrian]

John Kerry was on the defensive most of the evening.

[ELVIS]

George Bush was very good on things he knew about and is compassionate about, such as education...

[JCOOK]

Yeah I would say a draw now LETS' GET IT ON!

[Cathedral]

Draw my ass, Bush cleaned the floor with Kerry. Kerry didn't help himself by bringing Cheny's daughter into it.

Look, I don't understand by what measure some people judge these debates by, but I listen to what the candidates say as opposed to how they look or how they say it.

Bush lacks style, but when he opened his mouth it was all substance, baby.
If i weren't already a Bush supporter, i would be at this point because George W. Bush has done a great job considering what we as Americans have gone through the last 3 years.

9-11 cost our Nation hundreds of billions of dollars, along with over a million jobs as a direct result of it. So how on God's green earth can anyone say that our current economic successes are not the results of Bush's leadership?
To say that he has failed is so wrong on a partisan level it should make you dizzy.

Take off your Democrat glasses and see the cup as half full, not half empty as Kerry tried convince everyone it is.

We have come through a lot in a short time, and i'm hard pressed to believe that Bush failed the American People the way he has been painted to have.
He earned my vote...

[Lqskdiver]

Well said, Cat. I think Bush has offered more solutions and positive scenario's than KKKerry. Hell, ever der Schlickmeister Clinton could paint a more positive picture by building his goddamn bridges to the 21st century.

[Pink Spider]

I turned it off after the first 30 seconds. Therefore, I won the debate.

:)

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Cathedral
9-11 cost our Nation hundreds of billions of dollars, along with over a million jobs as a direct result of it.

Funny how that is the same number of lost jobs Kerry blames on the president...

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
I turned it off after the first 30 seconds. Therefore, I won the debate.

:)


I don't believe you...

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Funny how that is the same number of lost jobs Kerry blames on the president...

That doesn't even count the jobs in-directly lost since then based on economic stresses in the first year after the attack.

Some comanpies that tried to hold on, but were weaker and unable to service their clients as they normally did ended up effecting the bottom lines of companies that relied on their services.

The whole thing was like a snowball effect, and it could have been a ton worse than it was if not for Bush taking action in Afghanistan, and providing economic stimulus with tax cuts which were also aided by lower interest rates. which by the way kept people buying homes in record numbers. Those are New Construction homes at that, with lowest average home being sold at $150,000.00 plus.
Even the older home market was stimulated.

Now i know Kerry's argument is that only the top 1% got $89 Billion in tax cuts, which is very false since the cut i got helped me quite a bit.
And since that same top 1% pays 49% of the tax burdon in this country, I am all for them getting a break as well.

There are also a lot of Americans with incomes so low that they are not required to pay tax, yet still get a refund because they have children. I've gotten back over $3,000.00 in a single year where i only paid in half that.
problem is, most of the people i hear bitch about taxes don't even pay any, lol.
And those who pay the most remain silent, now why is that?

Shit, if you weigh only the facts, President Bush might just have the best record in Presidential History. (This is directed at Republicans because i know all too well what Dems think on this, and they're wrong)

[ELVIS]

Nice...;)

[JCOOK]

When I say draw I mean Bush had more substance, but he has a bad habit of scowling or frowning at his opponent.I wish GW would walk up and call Herman A FUCKING LIAR!

4 more years!

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by JCOOK
When I say draw I mean Bush had more substance, but he has a bad habit of scowling or frowning at his opponent.I wish GW would walk up and call Herman A FUCKING LIAR!

4 more years!

My girlfriend was screaming that very thing at the TV.
"Call him a liar, let him have it on all his inconsistancies"

I almost had to watch in another room because she was getting pissed at Kerry, lol.
I kind of like the reaction shots myself.
It gave me a sense that he has actual passion for the job he is doing and wishes to continue.
I was making the same faces as Kerry spoke. The man seriously has no clue about how things really are today.

Oh, and all I have heard from Kerry is "I have a plan"...well, I have yet to hear it in it's entirety, lol.
It's sooo cool that he tells us to read more about it online.

And another thing, I hope Cheny busts Kerry in the nose when he sees him for bringing up his gay daughter. That was classless when Edwards did it, and it was classless tonight.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
I turned it off after the first 30 seconds. Therefore, I won the debate.

:)

HA! I beat you. I had the Yankee game on.

Nawh, I'm only foolin'. Actually forgot there was a debate tonight. I'll see it tomorrow in class, though.

[ELVIS]

Forgot ???

[Ally_Kat]

yeah. i knew there was one more, but i thought it was later

[ELVIS]

I skipped church tonight to watch it...

[Ally_Kat]

church on wed?

[ELVIS]

Yes indeed...

Worship and bible study...

Two hours...


:D

[Ally_Kat]

haha - bible study. I had to do that one my excursion to the south. Weird church services y'all have

[Big Train]

What I found to be most telling was Kerry's views on affirmative action. The whole night Kerry was trying to paint every issue as a class warfare issue except one which he made a racial issue. This issue is the ONLY one that actually is a class warfare issue.

The issue isn't what a person's origin is, it is what level of schooling they were exposed too. If you had shitty schools, which most blacks and latinos have to attend, you get shitty results, which affirmative action is a band aid over. Kerry could have swayed me if he had called it a class warfare issue, that is a part of a larger problem, but he went the obvious useless racial way.

The only thing I totally disagree with both of them on is the border issue. They both utterly ignore the largest border issue...Mexico itself. Until the US gets tough with Mexico to get their house in order, the border problems we have will not cease. MIllions of Mexicans have no choice but to leave their country and come here to make a living for their families. Yet the US refuses to put economic pressure on the border. You could pay for hundreds of thousands of border agents and they will still get through. Until you remove the ceaseless demand for a better live, there is no way the borders will become manageable. It either misses both these guys or it doesn't make sense for them politically to do the right thing.

[diamondD]

I gotta agree with Cat on the Cheney's daughter thing. Everyone that cares knows about her and they keep trying to bring it up to turn the Christian right against them. It's classless and desperate.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Cathedral
And another thing, I hope Cheny busts Kerry in the nose when he sees him for bringing up his gay daughter. That was classless when Edwards did it, and it was classless tonight.

No, what's classless is supporting your party line over the freedoms of your own daughter. It's blatant hypocrisy at it's finest. And all done just to create a bullshit issue they could argue from.

[Cathedral]

Kerry and Edwards are going to get flak for those moves. There was no reason other than political posturing for either of them to mention what they assume Cheney's daughter would say, or to even make her an issue at all.

It was truly a low blow and i hope it bites them liberal assholes in the butt.

Dirty Politics at it's finest.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Kerry and Edwards are going to get flak for those moves. There was no reason other than political posturing for either of them to mention what they assume Cheney's daughter would say, or to even make her an issue at all.

It was truly a low blow and i hope it bites them liberal assholes in the butt.

Dirty Politics at it's finest.

It's post like this that illustrate to me that some people see issues from a completely different perspective than I do.


Cat', I agree with a lot of your posts, but I think you are completely off here. Just my opinion.

[franksters]

How can you guys like bush, he is a dictator, soon enough you will be force to join the military...

he is such a liar and that reflect on american, he is a crook, why dosn't he go to war with saoudie arabia, women have no rights overthere and they are the country that execute the most people in the world they also finance the hamas and other extrmist group... on top of it it's with your own money that they do it with...

USA buy 35% of it's gas overthere that's why.

why usa doesn't sign the kyoto accord which 86 other country signed it's only because of bush the dictator.

USA with bush = puritain ho my god we've seen janet's boob but you can go buy an ak-47 almost at the grocery store and you can also visualize live killing on tv everyday but janet's boob that is so immoral...

please please please don't you want freedom of everything!

and don't you hate to know that the rest of the world don't like the american's political way...

ciao for now

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
It's post like this that illustrate to me that some people see issues from a completely different perspective than I do.


Cat', I agree with a lot of your posts, but I think you are completely off here. Just my opinion.

Well, i respect your opinion, but i really don't see how that trick was designed to do anything else but damage the Christian support for Bush.

Two debates it was brought up in, and why?
Cheney's daughter certainly didn't like what was said about her.

I am totlly against homosexuality, but what Cheney's daughter does with her life is not reflective of where Cheney stands politically.
It was a low blow, and they both wanted that issue thrust into the spotlight in a cheap attempt to tarnish the support for Bush/Cheney.

If my daughter were to grow up and tell me she was gay, I wouldn't love her any less, but i wouldn't support gay rights because i simply do not believe in that life style.
It's an abomination in my opinion and quite frankly none of Kerry or Edwards business.

Besides man, it is just wrong to go after a candidates family in that fashion.
Sorry, but it made me a tad furious along with a lot of people.
Some of which may have actually been leanibng towards Kerry up until that point.

[Figs]

It was a loss for both Texas and Massachusetts in my opinion..

[Figs]

oh sorry, i thought this was the baseball playoff thread...

[Sgt Schultz]

Originally posted by franksters
How can you guys like bush, he is a dictator, soon enough you will be force to join the military...

he is such a liar and that reflect on american, he is a crook, why dosn't he go to war with saoudie arabia, women have no rights overthere and they are the country that execute the most people in the world they also finance the hamas and other extrmist group... on top of it it's with your own money that they do it with...

USA buy 35% of it's gas overthere that's why.

why usa doesn't sign the kyoto accord which 86 other country signed it's only because of bush the dictator.

USA with bush = puritain ho my god we've seen janet's boob but you can go buy an ak-47 almost at the grocery store and you can also visualize live killing on tv everyday but janet's boob that is so immoral...

please please please don't you want freedom of everything!

and don't you hate to know that the rest of the world don't like the american's political way...

ciao for now

Dictator? Where did you get your education? Do you even know what a Dictator is? Apparently not. The United States does know a hell of a lot about fighting and dieing to free the world of THEIR dictators though.

Your point about Saudi Arabia is absolutley clueless. You think we should wage war against them becasue their women don't have equal rights? Because they have capital punishment? There are many individuals in many countries that finance terrorists, you think we should invade them all? You are an ignoramus. Get your argument straight before spouting your bilge.


The United Sates won't sign the Kyoto treaty for several reasons. THe science is based on theory, not on fact. Also the Kyoto treaty is simply a money grab - from the United States to other countries. In case you didn't know the money of the U.S. comes from it's people. Did you know that any treaty also needs to be ratified by the Senate - and that the Senate will not do that even if the President wanted it? There goes your Dictator theory.

Dude, you are so brainwashed with idiot crap about the United States that I don't even know where to begin. The public airwaves in the U.S. belong the the American people, therefore they are restricted regarding nuduty and obscenity. There are PLENTY of outlets for AMERICANS TO GET ALL THE NUDITY AND OBSCENITY THEY WANT, AND THEY DO. But, people are not going to allow Janet Jackson to use a loved sporting event of theirs so she can show her boobie in a flagrant publicity stunt. The idea of a breast isn't the problem and never was - you people in the rest of the world have it totally wrong - AS USUAL.

You also have no idea who the Puritans were to compare their ideas with Bush's religious beliefs.

Sales of automatic weapons in the U.S. are illegal. Real AK-47s are fully automatic. The AK-47s that people can buy in the U.S. are not automatic. People who buy such weapons have to have a criminal background check and a waiting period to pick up their weapon. Did you know that ?

We know that "the rest of the world" doesn't like Bush - sorry, we don't care. It's a simple reason why they don't like him. They are either from Socialist countries, or anti-American Islamofascist coward countires. Why don't you go worry about your own sorry-assed countries instead of screaming that the U.S. is the source of all your problems?

[Sgt Schultz]

http://newrepublic.cjb.net/kerry.jpg

[Seshmeister]

I watched it this morning and I have to say that how anyone could consider voting for Bush is beyond me. The minute he went off script he was completely fucking useless.

My favourite line was "and that's why the US has a Healthcare system that is the envy of the world"

I actually burst out laughing aloud at that one...:)

[ODShowtime]

I liked when Kerry said:

"the president is lying to you"

I died laughing. No shit!

[Steve Savicki]

Joe Lockhart speaks:

"A few minutes ago, the third and final presidential debate came to a close. Once again, I am about to head over to the "spin room," and once again I am going to have the chance to talk about a victory for John Kerry.

During these debates, John Kerry has left no doubt that he has the strength and character we need in a commander in chief. He has shown the American people his command of the facts, steady demeanor, and well reasoned arguments. He offered hope and optimism, and showed that he will fight for middle class families.

The Bush campaign has tried to lower the bar for each debate. But the bar can only go so low.

The bottom line is, when it comes to the concerns of the middle class, George Bush just doesn't get it -- doesn't know how to talk about it -- and has no way to fix it. While he offered nothing but more of the same tired rhetoric -- John Kerry presented real solutions to real problems. That's the reason why John Kerry won and George Bush lost -- lowered expectations and spin from the Bush campaign will not change this.

Tonight George Bush's denials further damaged his credibility. He denied we have problems with immigration, No Child Left Behind, equal pay for women and the minimum wage. Bush pretends our problems don't exist, and he won't level with the American people.

[franksters]

so you are telling me that saoudie arabia is a good democratic country
and that everyone is free overthere?

what I meant by dictator was WORLD dictator and that's why there are almost no allies with the US.

but in the end I respect your opinion, I just don't agree that bush went against the decision of UN to not go to war against irak even if I don't like the politics of the muslim countries.

this war is like the war on drugs or on prostitution you will never win it!

period, you are beating a dead horse!

[ELVIS]

Saoudie ??

:D

[ODShowtime]

they spell that shit like 18 different ways...

[McCarrens]

Originally posted by Sgt Schultz
http://newrepublic.cjb.net/kerry.jpg

That's a great pic there!

[DLR'sCock]

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/special/polls/images/likely.voters.gif

[DLR'sCock]

Who do you think won the debate?

George W. Bush 29% 719,590 votes

John Kerry 71% 1,747,213 votes

Evenly matched 0% 1534 votes
Total: 2,468,337 votes

:)

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/

[DLR'sCock]

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Art/MSNBC_TV/Evergreen/QOD_Debate_Pres.standard.jpg


Who won the debate? 2,212,670 responses


Pres. Bush 39%

Sen. Kerry 61% :D


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036697/

[DLR'sCock]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/10/13/debate.main/index.html

Bush, Kerry hit each other on domestic issues
Battleground states ahead after candidates' final debate
Thursday, October 14, 2004 Posted: 8:31 AM EDT (1231 GMT)





TEMPE, Arizona (CNN) -- President Bush and Democratic rival Sen. John Kerry met on Wednesday for their final debate, clashing on issues ranging from the economy to jobs, taxes and same-sex marriage.

With the three debates over, the candidates planned to visit several battleground states to hammer home their messages in the final weeks before Election Day. National surveys show the candidates running neck-and-neck, intensifying the importance of the campaign's home stretch.

Like the previous two presidential debates, the tone Wednesday was cordial yet spirited, as Bush accused Kerry of doing little but listing complaints and Kerry accused the president of failing to act on matters such as health care and jobs.

The debate hall was filled with a flurry of facts and figures this time, more so than in the previous debates. At least one viewer said she went away confused.

"I wanted to hear some specifics, but what they say doesn't make any sense," Connie Narduzzo, 84, of Syracuse, New York told The Associated Press. "They just seem to go back and forth, throwing numbers at each other."

Also like the previous face-offs, a poll of viewers indicated that Kerry did a better job of debating.

A CNN/USA Today/Gallup poll released shortly after the debate indicated that more who watched it gave Kerry the edge. Among the poll's 511 respondents, 53 percent said Kerry did better, and 39 percent said Bush did. The poll's margin of error was plus or minus 5 percentage points. :)

The poll represents the views of those who watched the face-off only, not all Americans. Also, opinions of the debate may change within the coming days. The respondents were 36 percent Republicans, 36 percent Democrats and 28 percent independents -- the highest percentage of Democrats of any of the post-debate polls.

CBS News anchor Bob Schieffer was host of the 90-minute event held at Arizona State University.

Senior Bush campaign adviser Karen Hughes emerged from the debate pleased by the president's performance and critical of his opponent's.

"It became very clear tonight [Kerry] has no plans," Hughes said. "He has an interminable list of complaints. Complaint after complaint after complaint."

Kerry campaign manager Mary Beth Cahill said it was a "very bad night for President Bush."

"I think the president had a pretty rough time tonight because he can't acknowledge that any of the problems that the country has, from immigration to equal pay ... he was not able to one, acknowledge the problem, admit a mistake, or say where he wants to lead the country," Cahill said.

Beginning Thursday, Bush is to hit spots in Nevada, Iowa and Florida, according to the AP.

Kerry is scheduled to visit Nevada, Iowa, Wisconsin and Ohio, the AP reported.

On heath care, the president sought to explain the recent shortage of flu vaccines in the United States at the beginning of the flu season.

Kerry said the shortage "really underscores the problem with the American health care system. Five million Americans have lost their health insurance in this country."

After Kerry said he had a plan to expand health care, Bush said, "I want to remind people listening tonight that a plan is not a litany of complaints, and a plan is not to lay out programs that you can't pay for."

Kerry disputed that characterization.

"Every plan that I have laid out -- my health care plan, my plan for education, my plan for kids to be able to get better college loans -- I've shown exactly how I'm going to pay for those," Kerry said.

Jobs were also a focus at the debate Wednesday night.

"Mr. President," Schieffer asked, "what do you say to someone in this country who has lost his job to someone overseas who's being paid a fraction of what that job paid here in the United States?"

"I'd say, Bob, I've got policies to continue to grow our economy and create the jobs of the 21st century," Bush said. "And here's some help for you to go get an education. Here's some help for you to go to a community college."

Kerry has proposed corporate tax incentives that aim to lessen the movement of U.S. jobs to other nations.

"I want you to notice how the president switched away from jobs and started talking about education principally," Kerry said.

In responding to a question, Bush also lauded his budget proposal.

"It requires pro-growth policies that grow our economy and [creates] fiscal sanity in the halls of Congress."

Kerry countered: "Being lectured by the president on fiscal responsibility is a little bit like Tony Soprano talking to me about law and order in this country," Kerry said, reminding viewers of a ballooning federal deficit.

Bush responded: "My opponent talks about fiscal sanity. His record in the United States Senate does not match his rhetoric. He voted to violate the budget cap 277 times. You know, there's a mainstream in American politics, and you sit right on the far left bank."

When Bush accused Kerry of voting 98 times to increase taxes, Kerry implied that Bush was skewing the facts.

"Bob, anybody can play with these votes," Kerry said. "Everybody knows that. I have supported or voted for tax cuts over 600 times."

Dennis Nelson, 52, an Army Vietnam veteran, watched the debate in Tampa, Florida.

"I'm really worried about the economy, so I was impressed with what Kerry said," Nelson told the AP. "But I don't know if it's political rhetoric or [there's] something that he can do. I'm still undecided, and probably will be until I go to the polls."



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Copyright 2004 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press contributed to this report.

[DLR'sCock]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/10/13/opinion/polls/main649227.shtml


Uncommitted Voters Pick Kerry

NEW YORK, Oct. 13, 2004


CBS) A majority of uncommitted voters (39 percent) who watched Wednesday's third and final presidential debate felt Sen. John Kerry won, though nearly as many (36 percent) thought the result was a tie, and about one-quarter gave the debate to President Bush.

Immediately after the debate, CBS News interviewed a nationally representative sample of more than 200 debate watchers assembled by Knowledge Networks who were "uncommitted voters" - voters who are either undecided about who to vote for or who have a preference but say they could still change their minds.

During the debate, women frequently registered more positive reactions to Kerry, and the final poll results also indicate that. Men and women uncommitted voters each saw a different winner in tonight's debate. Half of women named Kerry the winner while men divided evenly – Mr. Bush 32 percent, Kerry 29 percent.

These uncommitted voters said the debates had helped them decide whom to vote for this year.

HAVE THE DEBATES HELPED YOU MAKE UP YOUR MIND?
(Uncommitted Voters Who Watched Debate)

Yes
71%
No
29%

While they came away from the final debate believing that both candidates had clear positions on the issues, for Kerry, those evaluations improved more dramatically. The percentage that thought he had clear positions almost doubled during the debate: beforehand, among these same respondents, just 31 percent said Kerry had clear positions on the issues, afterwards 59 percent did. Mr. Bush improved as well. After the debate, 64 percent said he had clear positions on the issues. 47 percent had thought so beforehand.

After the debate these voters overwhelmingly thought John Kerry cares about them and would protect Social Security. They were more mixed on whether Mr. Bush cares about people like them, although most said he did.

Seven in 10 uncommitted women voters who watched Wednesday said Kerry shares their priorities for the country. Men were evenly divided.

Both candidates gained in overall favorability, Kerry more than Mr. Bush. A majority of uncommitted voters came away from the third debate with more overall positive evaluations of Kerry. Four in 10 also came away with more positive views of Mr. Bush.

THE DEBATE'S EFFECT ON OPINIONS OF THE CANDIDATES
(Uncommitted Voters Who Watched Debate)

Better
Kerry
54%
Bush
39%

Worse
Kerry
9%
Bush
17%

No Change
Kerry
36%
Bush
44%

There were gender differences here, too. Forty-eight percent of male uncommitted voters said their opinion of Mr. Bush improved after the debate. Fifty-one percent of uncommitted women voters said their opinion of Mr. Bush didn't change. Kerry's image improved among both men and women.

Uncommitted voters in this poll graded the candidates with a sliding scale using their remote controls during the debate. In the real-time evaluations of tonight's debate:


Kerry scored a lot of points with the panel of uncommitted watchers on "kitchen table" issues: when he talked of job loss and American workers subsidizing the loss of their own jobs, and how he wanted to stand up for the American worker. Kerry got some of his highest ratings of the night when he said he would raise the minimum wage and would fight for women to have equal pay - this was especially highly rated among the women watching.


Kerry got high ratings when he said that peoples' health care should be as good as those of politicians. Kerry's discussion of his health care ideas garnered him generally high ratings (Mr. Bush's statements pointing out the potential costs of those plans did not meet with the same approval as Kerry's discussion of their benefits). Kerry scored high ratings on a personal matter at the end: discussing the women in his family, and the words of his mother.


Mr. Bush scored some of his highest ratings when he discussed his personal faith and said that he prays a great deal - especially when he said that his faith gives him strength and calms him in amidst the storms of the Presidency. Mr. Bush also got some of his highest ratings of the evening at the end of it - when he talked about his wife Laura and how they met.


Mr. Bush scored high points with the panel when he discussed his view on the sanctity of marriage, and as he discussed his stand against partial birth abortion the panel gave him consistently high ratings through that statement.


President Bush also scored points when he discussed prosecuting those committing crimes with guns. Kerry scored higher points in the area of gun control when he talked of going hunting and how he did not want criminals to have assault weapons.


Both got off to a slow start: neither candidate impressed the uncommitted much with their answers to the opening question of whether the nation would eventually be safer in the future.

[Warham]

All DLR'sCock poll numbers courtesy of Clinton News Network and msnBS.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Warham
All DLR'sCock poll numbers courtesy of Clinton News Network and msnBS.

http://img4.exs.cx/img4/8918/flip13.jpg