No Child Left Behind

[SweetSecrets]

I'm just curious for all the teachers of America? Come on, Pojo? Your a teacher right?

Who thinks this is all fooked up, personally? I hate all this accountability for children!

I like Bush in a lot of ways, but seriously, his education policy blows! i don't know of ONE teacher that supports No Child Left Behind.

What do you guys think? Where are the teachers of the ARMY? Even if you aren't a teacher, what are your thoughts?

I teach second grade...and I saw second graders crying in my class this year because they are forced to take this stupid test to basically prove how much the DONT know. It totally freaks them all out in the beginning of the year! Not a good way to foster self-esteem and further motivation to learn. That is crucial at their age. :mad:

[SweetSecrets]

Originally posted by SweetSecrets
Your a teacher right?



Oops! I meant to say, "You're". What kind of teacher would I be if I didn't correct my grammatical errors?

[jcook11]

Sadly some children should be left behind....I know that sounds awful forgive me.

[SweetSecrets]

Originally posted by jcook11
Sadly some children should be left behind....I know that sounds awful forgive me.

Well, its kind of an ironic title they give it because he seems to be doing just the opposite....leaving children behind.

Every child should be given a fair chance to succeed.

[lms2]

So what are your ideas on this subject?

[Ally_Kat]

I thought testing was in grades 3-8?

In private school, they made us take a test each year in May. Reading, English, Math, and Science were all covered and the testing took two full school days. The results would come back in early June and if you were below grade level on the test but had high marks in class, you had to go get a month's worth of tutoring over the summer and your tutor reported back on where he/she thought you stood. If your class marks were low (75 and under) and you tested under grade level, you were held back. While I was there, no one was ever left back due to it, so we must have been doing something right.

And with the whole accountability thing, I know that locally, there are a lot of teachers who should step up to that plate. My brother has had a public school education for the last 4 years. In those years, his history classes have consisted of him watching movies (Pearl Harbor, The Patriot, Braveheart, Young Guns) to learn history. He thinks it's cool as all hell. Who wouldn't. I haven't even mentioned the times they've watched porno in class. (Male dominated school. Only about 1% of the school are female students)

[jcook11]

Parents are the ones who are responsible for their children last time i checked, sadly school has become a place where people drop their kids off for eight or more hours a day.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by jcook11
Parents are the ones who are responsible for their children last time i checked, sadly school has become a place where people drop their kids off for eight or more hours a day.

so then let's do away with the public school system and have everyone home-schooled.

Obviously parents are a part in this as are the children, but when there are entire schools or entire grades on the public level that fail tests schools on the private level pass with flying colors, then there's something not adding up. And it can't always be the parents' fault.

They have that test the 3rd graders take for reading here. There was a huge song and dance because the teachers and parents thought it was unfair. Why? A lot of kids came back that they could barely read. They screamed that no 3rd grader could pass it. Guess what -- they gave it to private school 3rd graders and they all passed it.

There's no reason that a public school education can't be as good as a private school education. Not is there a reason why it can't be held to the same standards that a private school education is. We learn the same topics at the same pace. So why this gap?

[jcook11]

I agree Kat but until parents get more involved and start teaching them at home and demanding more from the public schools we're in for the status quo

[Ally_Kat]

I thought it was the teachers' job to teach? Isn't that why they get licensed and paid? My parents never taught me at home. They made sure I did my homework and signed it (a requirement by all my teachers) and that was it.

[jcook11]

Its' also the parents job to "educate" their children at home.you can stick the best teacher in with a group of kids,but unless those kids want to learn said teacher will fail

[Ally_Kat]

now, now. Kids wanting to learn and parents teaching them at home are two different stories. A parent can try to educate them at home and if they don't want to learn, then that'll do jack shit.

I still find it hard to believe that entire schools and classes are failing cuz of that though.

[SweetSecrets]

Gosh...I wish it wasn't 1:30 AM here so I could just enrapture myself in this topic with you girls....

Here's the condensed version of my experiences with No Child Left Behind...

I know it was based upon good principles. Teachers should most definitely be held accountable! However, the way this is being conducted is highly ineffective and unsupportive for creating an environment in which children feel safe and secure and whose motivation to learn may be rooted in positive rather than negative foundations.

As for third grade...Yes, that is when the testing becomes crucial for children's ability to move forward. However, the effects of No Child Left Behind are seen as early as Pre-Kindergarten. What happens is...instead of teaching in a way that fosters the appropriate child construction of knowledge through self-discoveries manipulated by hands on teaching techniques (which, is highly crucial for children to find the MEANING behind the 5 times 6's, the subject and predicate's, and the idea of light refraction); teachers are forced to teach by the test. This destroys the idea of fostering child ownership in learning. I do not mean, children should be in complete charge of their own learning, but they should be given the chance to discover their innate curosities by which the curriculum may be centered to promost the most meaningful, and therefore, most powerful kind of learning. What I mean by this is, simply, children need to see the value of learning beyond performance. They need to see it as self-fullfilling not fullfilling to social standards. Once this occurs within the child, my friend, all academic standards will be met. Once teachers can create the stimulation of child-curiosity and discovery, the classroom can become a never-ending and fullfilling cycle of inquiry that will extend beyond the classroom and on into adulthood...leaving the child competent and engaged throughout life.

When I say that teachers are forced to teach to the test, I mean that rather than taking the children on a nature walk in the woods for a planned lesson on the various habitats found on Earth...he/she has to use that time to teach children how to interpret such un-familiar (due to lack of hands on representation) ideas in test-form. It's the, 'You see children...when you see this on a test...you must remember that this means this not that...and these directions mean do this not do that..."

As adults we forget the complexities of standardized test-taking as we have developed these skills with the competence of experience. However, much time is needed for children of such young ages to develop the persistence, patience, and interpretation of which these types of tests demand. I am not saying standardized testing should be done away with, but I do think that it should not be the end-all representation of child understanding of a topic or subject. Most importantly, children should be free of the idea that all learning that occurs within the classroom is really meaningless if they cannot pass one specific test. How many of us had to take the SAT or ACT over again? Think about it?? And we were fucking adolscents!

My point is...teachers (AND, YES, THERE ARE GOOD TEACHERS OUT THERE) are having a difficult time teaching in meaningful ways because they see and know the accountability the children will face if their own learning pace is not sufficent enough for government standards (which fail to understand the idea that children learn at different paces with regard to individual learning styles and representaions). A teacher would much rather beef up child interest on a topic, get them into it and excited because of the meaning they have found and the ownership they realize in learning, before throwing a test in their face and saying, "Here..pass this or forget success in life."

Although third grade is the pivitol point....teachers are forced to train and prepare students for these types of tests early on so that the shock will be less disturbing to them once entering grade three.

TCAPS are required in Tennessee as early as Kindergarten, which are directly linked to No Child Left Behind.


By the way....that's just the whole child-effect side of this issue. The school issue is another novel-worth of discussion for me.

In regards to parent accountability...Do not forget that most of us at the ARMY are intellectually gifted. Most of us probably remember someone close to us involved in our learning at home as well as at school. Not all children have the benefit of this, and, although the parent could be to blame, it is often situations in which the parent is unable to give the time that our parents were able to give to us. Time is a valuable resource that seems to be dwindling in today's society. Should we blame the single mom, struggling to support two children, after her husband ran out on her and the children, leaving her with nothing but a job that barely pays minimum wage. Oh yes!! So its her fault that she put herself in that situation! Why didn't she go to college and find success for herself?? Well, my friends, there is a cycle of poverty that exists in this country..and it starts with education and situations in which children find themselves helpless to such accountabiity standards...as repeated attempts and failure promote an idea that one can simply not excel beyond current status of flipping burgers and having babies.

I will tell you...so far in my college career in the field of education....I have become quite enlightened to such grim realities.


Don't worry, my fellow conservatives, I am still voting republican as I am conservative in nature....and because, well, Kerry simply terrifies me.

[SweetSecrets]

Originally posted by lms2
So what are your ideas on this subject?

Will that suffice for now, lMS??

Sorry I have not been around in awhile. I am deep in my graduate studies.

Peace :)

[jcook11]

Sorry Sweet Secrets but Iam not a girl... although I am a lesbian trapped in a mans' body.

[SweetSecrets]

Originally posted by jcook11
Sorry Sweet Secrets but Iam not a girl... although I am a lesbian trapped in a mans' body.

Yea.....sorry about that! I was thinkin about KAT and lMS.

Guys welcome to comment! Excuse my ignorance. :)

[SweetSecrets]

Goodnight GUYS AND GIRLS. Of I am to have four hours of sleep before waking up at 5:45 to try and teach second grade.

Rock and Roll!

[jcook11]

Good night Sweet Secrets I was informed Friday that i was being "let go" at my job,Im' taking a week off befeore I get back in to the race of the rats

[lms2]

Originally posted by SweetSecrets
Will that suffice for now, lMS??

Sorry I have not been around in awhile. I am deep in my graduate studies.

Peace :)

Oh... for now... :D

I was just curious. I have so many mixed emotions, and in some ways a lack of understanding, on this particular subject.

Mixed emotions. I gave quite a bit of consideration to being a teacher. I love kids... I hated school. Would I be able to be the kind of teacher that I wanted to be? I spent a year as a substitute (and was offered three teaching positions at three schools-but was unable to accept due to the fact I don't have a degree)... I enjoyed working with the kids. A lot of problems to be sure, but there is still potential in Americas children. the problem was I did not think I could work within the given parameters of the school system.

Home schooling. Yes, I have given this option much thought. My children have begged me to do it. I have wanted to so bad... I think their education would be much improved! However, life in our society revolves only partially around our "education". A great deal of it revolves around ability to adapt and interact. Those are not fostered in the type of "home school" environment I could provide. Two main reasons being the fact that I am quite anti-social, and my kids have inherited this trait from me. We are quite happy to exist in a world dedicated to us! They need the social interaction that schools, sports and other extra cirricular activities provide. The other is that I am quite a control freak. I value the ideas and input they receive from the public school setting... good, bad and otherwise. It is crucial in their forming "who they are" in a way they will be able to live with.

Private school.... the options are limited here where I live. Catholic Schools are an option up to 6th grade, but after that, there is no option. I am not catholic, nor can I afford the price tag attached to that type of education.

Now, as far as no child left behind. I am against mandatory education. I believe that an education is a privilege. If a child is 16, and is bound and determined they do not want to learn... you are not going to teach them. Where I live, and I am sure nationwide, overcrowding in schools is a problem. Does it make sense to force kids to remain in an environment they are hostile towards, and in which they contribute nothing, and gain very little from. I think it is not. It is easy for a child to stamp their foot, throw temper tantrums, and wreak havoc when they know someone is going to be standing there making them stay in such an "undesireable situtation". However, when someone is standing there saying, fine, get the f*ck out then.... and what are you going to do? The child must then make life decisions-and when faced with the possibilibities, yes some of them will choose to fail.... others however, will choose to suceed. So far mandatory education has not proved to be making all kids suceed, but does, in my opinion, weaken the strength and structure of our classrooms.

[lms2]

As far as accountability...

There are GOOD TEACHERS out there... there are also many bad ones. That problem needs to be addressed. But CRTs are not the answer. Memorization is cool, and comes in real handy when cramming for tests, but does not foster the learning process.

One of the problems I see with the No Child Left Behind act is that there is nothing in place to address the individual problems our schools are facing. The problems in New York are different from the problems in Kansas are different from the problems in Tennessee. The result may be be the same... some of our kids are graduating lacking very basic skills... However the WHYS are not being addressed. I don't think you can formulate a how to correct it until you know why it is happening.Teaching a dog to jump through a hoop is a cool trick, but our kids are not one trick ponies.

I wish we had more teachers that fostered the indivual learning process and inspired kids to quest for knowledge such as Sweet Secrets, but I am afraid we do not. What I have seen is that there are a lot of teachers who simply jump through hoops. WHY? I know where I live, there are so many "underprivileged children" it is difficult to attract teachers to the area. So, if a teacher agrees to teach for four years in certain of these schools, their student loans are forgiven. Do they TEACH for four years... unfortunately, many of them do not. They jump through hoops long enough to get their own eduation paid for before moving on to bigger and better things.

Another problem I see is that a few good teachers that do try to be innovative in their teaching meet with resistance from administrators who want a cookie cutter approach. They spend the majority of the day battling with administrators over form, and the rest battling with kids over content. The result is "burn out". Many teachers in my area that have been good, productive teachers for 10 or 20 years are seeking careers in other fields because they are no longer able to cope, or perhaps are do not receive any meaning or satisfaction, from their chosen careers....

Third grade has been mentioned as crucial... and I believe it is, and perhaps even younger... to ensure that kids are on the level they need to be on! I am not supportive of the methods... The problem I have is that I have no suggestions. I don't know the answers. I do know that substituting in a third grade classroom, with its own agendas, does not provide an environment wherein you can work with kids who are reading on a 6th or 7th grade level, as well as trying to play catch up with kids who cannot read. And YES that does happen. It is delightful to be presented with a child who is just bursting with enthusiasm to learn, and a parent who is eager, willing, and able to help them in problem areas to see that they can get to where they need to be. But that is rare. There are kids in third grade that are already exposed to drugs, gangs, violence... etc. I imagine that being in the same class with the same kids for an entire year, would present more opportunities than substituting, but from the rate of burn out I see in the schools, perhaps not enough...

People put your Run Spot Run primars away. Clear your field of vision and replace the shining visions of Dick in his short pants and smiling freckled face and Jane with her freshly pressed dress, and bouncy pigtails... and see for a moment Bobby with his pierced ear, and saggy pants, or Suzy who was up until midnight and hasn't had a decent sit down dinner for weeks...yes, in third grade. Our society has changed we still have the Dick and Janes... and we have just as many Bobby and Suzys...Dick and Jane will succeed. Their parents have been saving for college since they day they were born. But what to do with the Bobby and Suzy's?

Will that suffice for now? :D

[SweetSecrets]

Originally posted by lms2

Will that suffice for now? :D

Gosh, lMS!! I am suppossed to be doing my homework like a good little graduate student...:D

You are more aware of what's going on in education then you think you are! You are so right about the burn-out issue. The reason for this is the frustrations of accountability that have been placed on teachers because THERE IS NO CLEAR ANSWER TO ALL OF THESE QUESTIONS...and those, such as the creators of NO Child Left Behind, trust they have the answers...but in reality only create more questions.

One thing I am certain of, is that THE ANSWER to all of the questions remains within the child. School is not a factory assembly line to split out finished products according to unwavering corporate/governement standards. Children and their innocence to their situation, should not be subject to such approaches. They are human beings, and, most importantly.....individuals who can simply not be categorized into a concrete representation. We are complex beings, and although children often maintain an innocence that remains simple yet powerful, they are still complex...and we must strive to understand them. This is where the ANSWERS lie.

I agree with the fact that it is a different era, and children are exposed to much more than those of previous generations. HOwever, I refuse to believe that children can not find fulfillment in learning for the sake of learning. It is the context in which the aquisition of knowledge is presented that is to question, and it should remain in NEVER-ENDING construction. This is a continuous process of learning that has no final answers, but only a series of solutions that lead to further cycles of inquiry. That's a great thing though! Teachers need the freedom to delve into such cycles within their own understanding of child development and how it applies to his/her students....and should inspire the same types of inquiry in children relative to crucial yet meaningful content.

As for your idea of home schooling being a good idea. I must disagree with you on this one. So far in my studies, I have researched the effects of cooperative learning on child motivation and construction of knowledge. There are crucial elements to child learning that are necessary for children to develop appropriately. It is important for children to learn to be a part of a community of fellow learners, because nobody benefits from living in a box their whole lives....no matter how intelligent and full of creative ideas they are. Imagine what such ideas can become when others can involve their strengths. Children need to learn how to communicate and support one another for their own benefit and societies. If society is losing social values, the last thing we need to do is give up and promote social isolation. We must face the realities upon us, and teach our children how to reverse the negative aspects of society. IT CAN BE DONE!! Don't think your children will be better off in an environment that is free of such social stressors...because this is, simply, the world we live in! It is better to allow your children the chance to grow positively within it and bring influence and support to those around him/her.

Currently I am doing an action research project on the effects of child personality to the creation of the most compatible learning dyads. This is rooted on the proven fact often child-peers make the best learning mentors. Even if you child didn't need to be mentored and was excelling in understanding, his/her ability to teach and support those who do not maintain such luxuries is a whole other area of learning in which society needs to focus. It is important for children to see each other as a community that needs one another....and is appreciative of individual differences and learning styles. With this idea a part of every adult, half of the the problems in the world today would be resolved amidst cooperative collaboration.

Your children need the negative and positive aspects of cooperative learning to develop life skills that promote further understanding of the world as well as further learning for oneself and others.


By the way....Children can ALL be inspired to learn. THAT IS WHAT MAKES A GOOD TEACHER. I will die trying for the rest of my life. Besides my goal to form the most kick-ass rock band (with Mark) ever to come out of Australia, my passion is just that, inspiring children to see meaning in living...for them to seek meaning in themselves and their individual differences as well as in other's unique contributions, and to value these characteristics within the social context.

[BITEYOASS]

It's none of the federal governments damn business to oversee education. The parents should just get in the local school boards faces on a daily basis and picket at the schools if they want to do something about it. The government is inflated enough as it is.

Do you want someone who sits up in an ivory tower in DC to control your daily lives?

[lms2]

Sweet Secrets... You misread, or perhaps I did not make myself clear on my comment on home schooling. I am AGAINST it. Home schooling would provide my children with a safer environment-and they would undoubtedly learn more "book matters", but that is like building a glass house around them in a world full of stone throwers.


from that paragraph...I value the ideas and input they receive from the public school setting... good, bad and otherwise. It is crucial in their forming "who they are" in a way they will be able to live with.

Further, I am also of the opinion that all children can (and should) learn. All I am simply saying is that education today, is in many ways, similar to mass production. Assembly line education is not the answer, but what is a practical solution?

You speak of many wonderful solutions that I do not see in existence, nor do I see the possiblity of those coming into existence in light of the current problems facing education today. Of course, as Ally mentioned, Private Schools have a higher quality of education, and in a private school type of setting, you may see more of your goals for education achieved... but being a child of the streets, that is where my primary interest lies... in reaching those kids. The adversity in their lives has created some truly inspired children who will never be given the chance to explore their potential in our current school system. And yes, the standardized testing only stands to further ostracize them and set them even further apart from the peers we need to draw them more closely too.

Did you ever watch that show Different Strokes... do you remember that episode wherein Willis and Arnold fail the entrance exam to Mr Drummond's private school... not because they are not smart-but do to that their life experiences were so different from those of the children currently attending that particular school. The boys then got the chance to give the head master a "test" to show him how little he knew about their world?

If only the government were willing to spend money as freely to educate them as it does to "discipline" or "reform" them at a time when the crucial learning point for these kids has come and gone...

Again Sweet Secrets, I believe you and I feel basically the same way about education... teachers... and kids in general, however, you are still active in the school system, so therefore, I look to you (and people like you) for answers for our children. I myself hated school when I was in it, and dealing with even just the issues my two children face brings back many unhappy memories. I just could not do that on a daily basis on such a wide scale.

I am best left reaching out to the odd individual child and making a difference one child at a time... But I hope that YOU and others like you continue the good fight to reform our floundering system of education!

Now go do your homework like a good little school teacher... You are going to make me late for work!


:D