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FORD
10-20-2004, 09:51 AM
Why I'm Voting for George
By Dave Joyce
t r u t h o u t | Letter

Wednesday 20 October 2004

This is going to be a mite long winded, but by the time you get to the bottom, you'll understand, so lean on back, take your shoes off and sit awhile. And ah ... no peeking.

Many have asked where I am in Maine. And while I don't have the GPS co-ordinates handy, I can say a little something about my place in the backwoods. Our town's name is something the local natives once said. Not the guys that came over on those rickety, leaky sailing ships, I mean the ones who answered the doorbell and met the boats. The word, quite frankly, has just too many c's, k's, t's, p's, and w's for one human mouth to even try to muckle on to. And as far as spelling it, as a former systems analyst I know that certain combinations of keystrokes can unlock hidden programs that will wipe your hard drive faster than a skunk can raise his tail and say "Hello," so that ain't gonna happen. But what the dang thing means, well that's another story.

Not too many of the original inhabitants are around anymore, so the current natives aren't sure what the thing really means. Ed down at the corner claims it means "Moose too damn heavy," because for the original folks here, when a hunter killed one, rather than drag it back to camp, they dragged the camp to it. Nowadays, during the one week when Moose hunting is allowed, we currents use backhoes, skidders, and the like (I've heard tell of a chainsaw or two being involved) to bring them out of the backwoods. To me, seeing these sizeable critters on an almost daily basis, the originals had it right.

Dalton, down the road the other way, says it refers to some sort of ritual the originals had, a religious thing involving gourds and riverbank mud. Don't know as if I buy it, because, to be honest, I think Dalton's opinion on the matter might be a tad tainted by his father Sam, and that man was a bit peculiar when it came to the originals that once inhabited these parts.

A few decades back, when a ruckus broke out between the originals and the currents over who owned which part of the state, Sam made his opinion known on the matter. He attended one of those public discussion meetings on the various land claims that occurred around this area during that time. Seated in the room were not only the town elders of several towns, but representatives of those originals, and a large number of local citizens who also wanted to be heard. The meeting went back and forth all night, each side presenting its case and neither making any sense to the other. Finally, Sam couldn't take it any more and got recognized to speak. He got up and proceeded to calmly explain with his loud booming voice how no finer friend of the originals existed here in the valley. Why, he boasted, as a young lad, he had acquired his very first hunting rifle by trading a pint of store bought whiskey to Old Indian Joe who lived out by himself on an island in the middle of the river, and that out of the goodness of his heart it was a full pint except for that small sip he had taken to make sure it was indeed the "real stuff," so as far as he was concerned, all this talk of who owned what was a bunch of crap that stank just as bad as the black gunk the mill flushed into the river out where Old Joe used to live. Barely pausing for breath, he then proceeded to go on with his version of the area's history in which, while the originals had fought bravely to hang on to the land, they lost because there were more of "us folk than them folk" and therefore it had all been decided way back when anyways, so we should just all go home and be done with it. The silence that greeted Sam's message was such that Sam figured he had single-handedly stopped what would later become a landmark Supreme Court ruling dead in its tracks, and deciding to set an example by his way of thinking, he promptly left the meeting.

On the other hand, I think Carl, over on the south side of the hill, has it about right. His translation is "Place Too Small for Post Office and Therefore Does Not Exist." You see, a while back we were an independent town. We weren't big, just a few square miles in the woods. We had a post office, a general store, and with a couple of two-story buildings at the crossroads, we considered this our "downtown." But a couple of decades ago or so, the Postal Service decided our Post Office needed to become undeliverable. When that happened, the general store went under, and our town was absorbed into a bigger town nearby. Most, but not all, folks at the time voted for the consolidation and while it passed, it was not without a struggle. And the tale of that struggle involves a now deceased relative of Carl's, his uncle Barney.

Barney had fought WWII in the navy, and had gotten into UDT (Under Water Demolition). He'd been part of a team clearing obstacles on various Pacific island beaches prior to the Marines going ashore. When he came back, he bought himself a parcel of land out in the woods, set up a cabin, got hitched, and raised a packet of kids. But when talk of consolidation started, Barney would have none of it. So on the night of the big vote, Barney didn't bother to go. He decided, instead, to strike a blow for Liberty and Independence.

Our town was separated from the larger one by a small bridge crossing a small rocky creek. The middle of the bridge was the dividing line between us and them. About a mile or so upstream exists a dam owned by a local sawmill owner whose mill was, at that time, on the other side of the bridge in that other town. Now, the dam had been built a few years after Barney had built his place, and the resulting 150-plus acre pond came close to Barney's land, but was not actually on it. Barney didn't mind the dam and pond - its pickerel, bass, and other fish were a good addition to his family's diet.

But Barney was a stubborn cuss and no way, no how, was he going to allow the place where he was born, grew up, lived, and was going to die, to just up and disappear. Plus he was not about to let some "big city types" tell him what size to make and where to put his outhouse. And if he had to make another sacrifice for his independence, so be it. Being a former UDT man, he figured half a stick of 40% would be about right. So while everyone else was at the meeting, Barney was out by the dam reliving his youth.

Barney figured that by blowing the dam, a resulting wash of water would take out the bridge downstream, cutting us off, and as a by product, giving the owner of the mill (and one of the biggest supporters of the consolidation movement) an extra kick in the pants. Things didn't quite work out that way. The pond was lower than normal that year - dry summer - and the frothing churning mass of rushing angry water he envisioned smashing into the bridge was a single wave just barely able to wet the upper supports.

None the less, he was proud that his mission was accomplished, and rather than hightail it back to his cabin, he stood by until the Sheriff arrived, accompanied by the local Game Warden (who thought someone was night fishing), and thus managed to parlay his deed into a county-paid vacation trip. But, in spite of Barney's valiant attempt to defend his independence and his way of life, the outcome of the vote was never really in doubt. Our small place with the weird name disappeared; we lost our autonomy, our independence, and our "dot" on the map of Maine.

Fighting for independence is strong up here. Maybe it has to do with the fact that many of the families in this area have direct ties to veterans of the War of 1812, who, as pay for their service during that war, were given land grants up here. And as each generation passed, folks in this area contributed sons to all the different fights that followed. Back in the woods, there are old graveyards, some tended and some forgotten, with members of entire families listed on the headstones. In just about every case, you'll find a name or two of someone in the family that died during the Mexican War, the Civil War, the Indian Wars or some such. In a lot of cases, it's just the names; the remains are buried somewhere else.

A lot of veterans live in these parts. And if you travel the back roads a bit, sooner or later you'll come across a VFW or American Legion hall. It's usually a larger than normal building, either a remodeled farmhouse or a spec steel frame structure of some sort. There'll be a parking area, tarred or dirt, and flag poles that proudly fly both the American and State of Maine flags. Sometimes there'll even be a cannon or two out front between those poles. And pretty much at most times of the day there'll be a couple of cars or a truck or two in the parking lot.

One such hall I would pass by occasionally when I was working for a nearby paper mill. My commute to and from work was about 45 minutes each way, and there were a number of slightly different routes I could take depending on the weather, time of day, or season of the year. A couple of years back, my choice of travel that day took me by this particular VFW. As I drove past, I noticed the 37mm anti-tank cannon between the poles had been replaced by a US Army surplus M48 Main Battle Tank. And because such a tool of war seemed so incongruous on a peaceful back woods road, I pulled in and stopped.

After getting out and walking around to the tank, I stood there trying to figure out its pedigree, when out from the VFW hall stepped an older gent. He saw me standing there and came over. He was dressed typical backwoods Mainer style: green work pants, red and blue checked flannel shirt, open so that the frayed upper front rim of his whitish undershirt peeked out. His shirt was covered by a blue windbreaker with a faded Red Sox emblem on one side and a shoulder seam that was torn open, a tuft of white insulation exposed, on the other side. His shoes were brown work boots, badly scuffed, the right shoe's tip showing a bit of steel cap through the worn leather. In his right hand was a polished wooden cane (I had noticed a limp as he walked over).

He was a little shorter than my 5' 11" height. The white hair on his head was topped with a grease and oil stained, faded, well worn green John Deere baseball cap. Brown eyes, set in a wrinkled, weathered face, complete with grayish stubble and silver wire frame glasses, looked me over.

"Nice tank," he said.

"Sure is, just trying to figure out what version it is, A1 or A3"

"A1." He paused, "You know who the tank is named after?"

At first I thought he was talking about the personal name combat crews sometimes put on their vehicle, and then I realized he was talking about the official name.

"George S. Patton, too bad he never had a chance to take these babies up against some Mark V's or T-34's," I said.

He laughed, "Yeah, George would have enjoyed that rumble." Then tilting his head and cracking a smile, he asked, "You a tanker?"

"Nope, never had the honor, got 4F'd by the draft board on account of my legs."

That was true. As a young lad, my legs tried to occupy a point in space-time that was also occupied by a moving car. The result of this experiment in quantum mechanics was a fast trip to several medical establishments and a long period of recovery. So when my turn came for a draft physical back in the days of LBJ, old Doc Bessin, who had been treating my colds, sniffles, and other assorted childhood illnesses and was well aware of my leg's reassembled condition, didn't bother with a thermometer, a tongue depressor or any such, he simply looked at me, looked at my legs, wrote "4F" on my form, and told me to go home and have a long and healthy life.

"So how come you know tanks?" he asked.

"Been a World War II buff ever since I was a kid," I said. "Grew up on tales from my relatives that fought in that war."

"Yeah, what part?" he asked.

"My uncle Bobby was a bombardier on 17s over Europe. Got shot down during the Schwienfort raid and spent 2 years as a POW. My other uncle Frank served in the Marines and fought in just about every Pacific battle from Guadalcanal to Iwo Jima, where he got wounded and shipped home. I got a second cousin that fought in France, but never made it back."

His smile widened, "Well it sounds as if your folks did ok, then." He shifted the cane to his left hand and stuck out his right, "George Akers is the name."

I grabbed the offered hand and shook it while saying, "Dave Joyce, pleased to meet you George."

"Likewise," he said. Then, dropping the handshake, he switched hands on the cane once again and turned towards the tank.

"Yup, ol' Blood and Guts would have loved this one. Did I mention I served under General Patton during WWII?"

"No. Really?"

"Yup, came ashore with the Third Army, chased the Krauts across France, Belgium, and clean into Germany. That's where I got this." His hand struck his right leg with a soft dull thwack.

"You saw a lot of history then," I replied.

"And a lot of good men die too," he said sadly, then brightening up he added, "You being a history buff and all, you might want to take a look at my collection of photos and stuff from the war up to the house," and pointed towards a trailer with an attached shed, a type of homestead common in these parts, perched on the hillside just above and a short distance from where we stood.

Since I had left work a few hours early that Friday fall afternoon, I was in no real rush to get home. It had been a long week of late nights as we computer geeks finished updating the mill's inventory system. The job was finally done, the programs doing their thing seemingly without a hitch, and the boss was in a good mood, so a slightly longer than normal weekend awaited me. And the offer did intrigue me.

"Sure," I said and pointed at my truck parked nearby. "Hop in."

We drove across the parking lot, around the right side of the hall, and crossed over on to George's driveway. His trailer sat in a small clearing on the hillside, overlooking the VFW hall and the nearby tarred road. The trailer was a single wide that had a fairly new wooden roof supported by posts at each corner. What had appeared to be an adjoining shed from the parking lot was in fact a large addition that was cleanly affixed to the trailer's side wall. An insulated chimney pipe with cap jutted above the roofline, lazily discharged a thin stream of wood smoke. A couple of rusting lawn chairs sat outside, placed around a small circle of stones, the inside of which contained the cold charred embers of a past campfire.

As we pulled into the yard and he was directing me where to park, the door to the trailer opened and a short, white haired woman stepped out and walked towards the truck.

"Well, George," she said, "how many this time?"

"Just one like I promised," George said as he swung himself out of the truck and on to the ground. It took him a few seconds to get his land legs and steady himself with his cane before turning and pointing at me. "This young fella was admiring Bessie down there and I invited him up to take a look at my collection."

She looked me over. She stood there wearing a faded blue and white house dress, its floral print long ago washed into obscurity. Around her waist was a lime green apron whose tint hinted of a brighter past. Covering her shoulder and arm was a dark blue sweater, unbuttoned, but held together at the top with a gold chain clipped onto the sweater collar. The face was wrinkled and well worn with a hint of youthful beauty and grace. What was most remarkable were the two bright blue eyes that shown out from behind a pair of slightly tinted frameless glasses. Those eyes had the same look as a Mother Bear with cubs spotting a potential threat for the first time: situational awareness. And standing there, with her short stocky frame and hands on hips, the resemblance to such a critter at such a time was uncanny.

"And you being?" she said, in a tone that was both defiant and friendly.

"His name's Dave and he works up to the mill, Martha. Just stopped by to look at my collection," George said and headed off towards the trailer.

I introduced myself a little more proper, shook hands, and turned to follow George, all the while answering her questions of where I lived, what I did at the mill, as we strolled up the short walkway and into the trailer. I could sense an ease in her attitude towards me and my intrusion into her life as we talked. But there was still something about her voice that bothered me, something that still did not quite click.

Inside was the typical single wide layout. A kitchen to the right of the front door with a half bar wall dividing it from the living room. Off to the left, a narrow hallway ended with the door to the master bedroom. Two doorways along the hallway's right side showed where a spare room and the single bathroom lay.

The living room and kitchen were clean, neat, and dust free. A three person sofa sat against one wall with a recliner on the right hand side. A coffee table sat on an oval, green and yellow braided rug in front of the sofa. Upon the table's shining surface sat framed photos, both new and old, of young children. In one corner of the living room was a small television. The other corner, the one closest to the front door, contained a small table with a vase of colorful but artificial flowers. The trailer had that comfortable, lived in look.

Where a normal single wide rear entrance would be - the upper left corner of that living room - a darkly stained, highly polished six panel wooden door with a gleaming brass doorknob now stood.

I stood inside their home, feeling a little awkward, when George walked over to the wooden back door. Flicking a light switch on the wall and opening door, he turned his head over his shoulders and said, "Here it is."

As the flickering light from a couple of four foot florescent strips took hold, I could see another room, this one slightly larger than the living room, through the doorway. As I came across the living room and into this new space, I could see it was filled with shelves of books, framed photos, newspaper clippings, flags, pennants, and other memorabilia. A leather recliner, a smaller sofa and a couple of small tables filled the rest of the room. In one corner sat a small TV with an attached VCR, a rack of tapes perched on the wall above.

One wall, however, was nearly unadorned - five framed photos, one centered, with four others aligned to its corners surrounding it. Below, a small table stood against the wall. A miniature flagpole with a granite base and American flag lay on top towards the back of the table. Just in front of that was a highly detailed scale model M4 Sherman tank and in front of that, a small rectangular velvet box displaying a Purple Heart.

George motioned me to have a seat on the sofa. As I sat down, he asked, "So what d'ya think?"

I smiled and said, "Impressed."

Just then Martha put her head in the doorway and asked, "Would you care for a cuppa tea or coffee?" It was the way she said it that caused me to realize what it was that had bothered me about Martha: she wasn't from Maine, she was British.

George and I talked for several hours that day. He told me of growing up on a farm up in potato country and his handiness with farm machinery. When Pearl Harbor happened, he wanted to join up right away, but his mother made him promise to finish high school. So the day after graduation, he hitch-hiked down to Bangor and joined the Army. After Basic, the Army, in a rare fit of sanity, assigned him to tank school because of his mechanical abilities. He trained in Texas and California before being shipped to England, and ended up as the assistant driver/hull gunner in a Sherman tank assigned to Patton's Third Army.

"There were five of us in that tank. Sergeant Bill Puller was the commander. We just called him Sarge," he said with a smile. "And there was Corporal John Nast. Nasty was his nickname. He was our gunner. Bob Swan, the loader, was called Swami, 'cause Bob always seemed to know which kind of shell to grab before Sarge or Nasty could tell him. Dan Black was the driver; "Shifty" we called him because he could never get comfortable in his seat, always moving around trying to get set whenever we were on the road."

Pointing towards the wall with the five pictures, he said, "That's them over there, the lower left hand one."

I got up and looked at the pictures. They were old, faded from black and white into a brownish white. The picture George directed me to displayed 5 uniformed individuals standing along side a Sherman tank festooned with sleeping bags, knapsacks, shovels, and spare treads. Across the turret were the words "Squirrel Huntin' II." The three other photos surrounding the center one showed pretty much the same, but in those photos, the tank and the items strapped to its sides, as well as the men in the photos, were caked with mud or covered with snow, unlike the pristine condition that had existed in the first photo.

As I looked at the photos, George said, "See the one in the middle?"

I looked. Two GIs were standing side by side by a large river. The far bank could be seen in the distance. Both men had their backs to the camera and were looking back over their shoulders. "Yes," I responded.

"That's me and Shifty pissin' in the Rhine just after we crossed in March of '45."

As I stared at the photo, he added, "That was taken about a week before I got hit and Shifty bought it."

I asked him if he minded telling me how it happened.

"No, don't mind at all. We had crossed into Germany and at that time a lot of Germans were just plain giving up. We had fought our way across Europe and them Nazis (he pronounced it like Churchill did, "Nazzis") had put up a hellva fight. About 3 or 4 days earlier, our tank platoon commander had been killed and we got a freshly caught shavetail (2nd Lieutenant) as a replacement."

He paused to take a sip of tea. "We got word from some German civilians that there was a group of SS up the road wanting to give up. Sarge tried to talk this new LT into not going right in, with bands playing and all, to accept their surrender. But the young kid wouldn't listen to any of the more experienced guys, and besides, he was in command and orders are orders. So we headed up the road, the Lieutenant in the lead tank, us second, with a couple of half-tracks carrying a platoon or so of GIs in each behind us. No sooner did we round the corner on this narrow road, when an 88 anti-tank gun opened up, nailing the lead tank with his first shot. The crew of that tank got out before she blew and we fired at where we thought the gun was, but missed. The Germans fired a second shot, hitting us. It was a dud, went right through our armor like a hot knife through butter, in one side and out the other, clean as a whistle. But rather than argue the point with the other fellows, Sarge, because knew we were out-gunned, ordered us to bail out. I went out the hatch above my head, fell to the ground and scrambled behind a nearby tree. The third shot the Krauts fired wasn't a dud; it blew our tank to hell and back. That's when a piece of shrapnel just about took my leg off. I lay there on the ground screaming like the dickens, bullets and what all flying around me, when I realized I wasn't the only one screaming. That first 88 round to hit us had done some damage after all, it had jammed Shifty in his seat; he couldn't get out and was screaming as he burned in the remains of our tank."

He paused, wiping a tear from his eye. "Sorry, even after all these years...." He took a deep breath and a sip of what was now cold tea.

"I got hauled out of there, back to an aid station, and then back to England. They took what remained of my leg off, and taught me how to walk with a new one. That's where I met Martha. When came time for me to go back stateside, I didn't want to leave her, so I upped an' married her. She's been taking care of me ever since."

After a couple of minutes, he said; "Dave, you know why we won?"

I wasn't quite sure what George was getting at, but before I could answer, he pointed to the video tapes in the rack. "Ever see Frank Capra's 'Why We Fight' movies?"

I said I did and owned a copy of the series myself. He smiled. "Kinda figured you had seen it. Actually Capra didn't quite get it right. Look over there," he said, and pointed to a spot on the wall between two bookshelves. Three framed documents hung on the wall.

"Those are why. The one on the right, that's my enlistment papers, the one on the left is my discharge papers. In the middle is a copy of the United States Constitution. You see when you swear into service, you're swearing to defend that document, the Constitution, against all enemies foreign or domestic. Them Nazis, they swore an oath to a man, Adolf Hitler; we swore an oath to an idea. That's why we won."

At this point Martha stuck her head in the room and said that dinner was almost ready and I was welcome to stay if I wanted. I begged off and said I had to be going. We exchanged pleasantries and I promised to come back.

I did too. Over the past years I've visited George and Martha, spending hours with George listening to him relive his youth, his tales of the good fight and the men who fought it with him. But when I stopped working at the mill, my times over there were fewer than they should have been. I'd come on by after a fishing trip and drop off some of my catch, or just drop by when I was in the area and usually end up visiting for a couple of hours or so.

As the years have gone by George and Martha have endured. George's leg started to give him some pain and in the past few months he started to have some trouble with his heart. About a month ago, I stopped by and was greeted with an offer I couldn't refuse, a chance to join him in his one and only, if Martha had anything to say about it, daily beer down at the VFW hall.

We sat at the bar sipping our brew, with a television softly playing in the background, and it was then that I heard George make the only "political" comment I ever heard in the short years since I first met him. A commercial for the ACLU was on; you know the one, the one that talks about the Patriot Act. It has a line in it that goes something like "The government can search your home without ever telling you."

George heard that, shook his head slowly and said, "That's plain just not right."

My wife and I returned from George's funeral a few days ago. He died before the VA could get him booked into Boston for a bypass. The service was at a church down the road from his trailer, and his resting place is up the road from it, in one of those small cemeteries that will someday be hidden back in the woods. The small procession from the church to the cemetery passed by the VFW hall, and they stopped the hearse carrying his flag-draped coffin directly in front of the hall and its tank for a moment. While we waited there for the procession to continue on to the burying ground, I made a decision. I'm voting for George.

When I make my mark for John Kerry, it won't be so much for his positions or plans for America. It won't even be to get Bush out of office. It will be for George ... and Shifty. For Uncle Bobby, and Uncle Frank and even stubborn ol' Barney and all the others that left homes and farms, gave blood, sweat, tears, limbs, and lives in order to protect our Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic. They did their duty; on November 2nd, I'll do mine.


Dave Joyce is a retired systems analyst living in the Great North Woods of Maine where he enjoys all of nature's bounty except the black flies. He can be reached via his moose and squirrel powered backwoods dialup connection here: drjoyce_301@hotmail.com.

Warham
10-20-2004, 09:57 AM
It's idiotic to not take the candidate's positions and plans (even the thousands that Kerry has) into consideration when you vote. He might as well say he'd vote for Hitler with that mentality.

FORD
10-20-2004, 10:02 AM
I see you missed the point entirely.

Warham
10-20-2004, 10:11 AM
No, there was no point to that story, other than the guy has no idea why he's voting, other than to keep the Constitution alive.

I guess people are voting for Bush to get that nasty Constiution removed from hearts and minds.

:rolling eyes:

Nice slip in there of the Patriot Act. Not accurate.

What if Kerry's plan was to get rid of our Constitution? By that guy's admission, he doesn't really even pay attention to Kerry's plan.

John Kerry
10-20-2004, 10:32 AM
Originally posted by Warham

What if Kerry's plan was to get rid of our Constitution? By that guy's admission, he doesn't really even pay attention to Kerry's plan.

I have a plan.

FORD
10-20-2004, 10:35 AM
Fact remains that the BCE have proven themselves to be domestic enemies of the Constitution, and of this nation, and therefore anyone who votes for them knowing this is a partner to their treason.

There is no proof of Kerry doing such things. But if he does, I'll be the first to be in his face about it.

John Kerry
10-20-2004, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by FORD
There is no proof of Kerry doing such things.

That's because I covered it up... I mean... nevermind!

Warham
10-20-2004, 10:42 AM
I don't know.

I'd say Kerry going to the U.N. for a global test wouldn't necessarily jive with our Constitution.

John Kerry
10-20-2004, 10:44 AM
Originally posted by Warham
I'd say Kerry going to the U.N. for a global test wouldn't necessarily jive with our Constitution.

I didn't actually mean global test. That's simply a distortion from the Bush/Cheney camp.

I promise to only ask for permission from France and Germany.

BigBadBrian
10-20-2004, 10:47 AM
Originally posted by John Kerry
I didn't actually mean global test. That's simply a distortion from the Bush/Cheney camp.

I promise to only ask for permission from France and Germany.

:D :D :D

FORD
10-20-2004, 10:56 AM
:rolleyes:

John Kerry
10-20-2004, 11:05 AM
FORD, have you tried Heinz's delicious tomato ketchup?


http://www.cookiejars.net/heinz.jpg

frenchie
10-20-2004, 11:13 AM
bush is the tool of the evangelist church!!!!
usa must be a democraty and not a theocraty. is church and state separated??????

ELVIS
10-20-2004, 11:23 AM
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041015/i/r1549424839.jpg

I have a plan...

frenchie
10-20-2004, 11:25 AM
good, this guy plays soccer! great sport!

ODShowtime
10-20-2004, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by ELVIS
http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041015/i/r1549424839.jpg

I have a plan...

E, I love when you step in and straighten us out with some real insight!

ELVIS
10-20-2004, 11:32 AM
Thankya very much...

FORD
10-20-2004, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by John Kerry
FORD, have you tried Heinz's delicious tomato ketchup?


http://www.cookiejars.net/heinz.jpg

Yes I have, Mr. President. Even on chocolate chip cookies once. Though that was more or less on a dare, and didn't think the practice was common enough to warrant the sale of Heinz Ketchup cookie jars.

Kristy
10-20-2004, 02:23 PM
That hairstyle is YOU, baby!
http://home.earthlink.net/~srsejda/Lurch_Kerry.jpg

BigBadBrian
10-20-2004, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by frenchie
good, this guy plays soccer! great sport!

Yeah, even little girls and Frenchmen can play it. No offense against women, of course. Offense against Frenchment intended, of course. :gulp:

BigBadBrian
10-20-2004, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by frenchie
bush is the tool of the evangelist church!!!!
usa must be a democraty and not a theocraty. is church and state separated??????

:rolleyes: You're a tool of your liberal media. Try again.

frenchie
10-20-2004, 04:37 PM
bush have been saved from alcool thanks to god! let me laugh.....
i hope eddie van halen will drink again and again

Cathedral
10-20-2004, 04:49 PM
K-K-K-Kerry don't cry, K-K-K-Kerry goodbye!

10 years ago, politics were at least civil, now they are verging on civil war.
That ain't smart considering most Dems are against owning firearms.

wraytw
10-20-2004, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
now they are verging on civil war.
That ain't smart considering most Dems are against owning firearms.

:lol:

:gun:

ODShowtime
10-20-2004, 04:55 PM
wouldn't you guys just love it too

wraytw
10-20-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by ODShowtime
wouldn't you guys just love it too

Oh yeah. Definitely. That would be so much fun. :rolleyes:

Cathedral
10-20-2004, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by ODShowtime
wouldn't you guys just love it too

Not in the least, bro.
Just making an observation based on the political hatred for the man in office.
Both sides are engaging in verbal battles that are starting to equal the rage often found in religious discussions.

Love it? Not hardly, I find it to be very sad and ultimately disasterous to our country as a whole.

United we stand, divided we fall, and it's a long long way down.

ODShowtime
10-20-2004, 05:10 PM
Thanks for the clarification Cat. The vast majority of posts I read from you seem intelligent and rational.

I have never experienced such political polarization in my lifetime.

wraytw
10-20-2004, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by ODShowtime
I have never experienced such political polarization in my lifetime.

The polarization has been there for a while, now. It's just the utter hatered that makes it so much more prevalent.

Cathedral
10-20-2004, 05:17 PM
Didn't mean to come off as a "Militia Man".
Which by the way, I know a few of and the weapons they have makes my stash look like a Lone Ranger playset.

They are well prepared with maps and agendas, two of them are divorced because their wives were terrified of them and their hatred for ALL things political.

Honestly, I don't think it matters much which one wins the election.
We are involved in something that is bigger than our country alone, which is why i support our country going on the offensive as opposed to sitting back and waiting.
If nothing else, our short comings within our own Intelligence agencies proves that.
It failed on 9-11, and was failing for many years before that.

MY view goes way deeper than G.W. Bush, or any President for that matter.

FORD
10-20-2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
K-K-K-Kerry don't cry, K-K-K-Kerry goodbye!

10 years ago, politics were at least civil, now they are verging on civil war.
That ain't smart considering most Dems are against owning firearms.

If you had been called every name from "unpatriotic" to "America hater" to "terrorrist" you probably wouldn't feel very optimisitic about this country's chances should such behavior continue.

4 more years of the BCE would be the end of this country. It's going to take much longer than 4 or even 8 years to completely repair the damage Bush and PNAC have caused, but at least at this point I believe it IS still repairable.

Find an American who has lived abroad for the last 20 years or even the last 10. There's gotta be some out there. Bring them back here, and then listen to them when they tell you for a fact that this is not the same country it was when they left.

And you cannot use the events of one day as an excuse for that. It simply doesn't work that way.

Think about it -- who was more diobolical? Frankenstein's monster, or was it Dr Frankenstein for creating him in the first place?

Al Qaeda is the Frankenstein's Monster created by the BCE.

If you took an oath to protect this country from ALL enemies, foreign and domestic, then it's important to know who the enemies are. And you simply cannot go after Al Qaeda without going after those who created them in the first place. And that is the Bush Criminal Empire.

Warham
10-20-2004, 05:30 PM
Nonsense.

Al Qaeda is the result of muslim extremists becoming terrorists.

George Bush can't give them the 72 virgins they expect when they get to heaven for blowing up a van in a market place, or landing a plane in the 80th floor of a skyscraper. Only Allah can.

This behavior is the result of regilious fanaticism to the Nth degree.

Cathedral
10-20-2004, 05:39 PM
WoW, that actually made sense.
But in my opinion, the changes in this country happened from the years 92-2000.

We became passive...and that is exactly what our enemies wanted.

ODShowtime
10-20-2004, 05:40 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
Didn't mean to come off as a "Militia Man".
Which by the way, I know a few of and the weapons they have makes my stash look like a Lone Ranger playset.

I'm glad you got my gist there :)

If nothing else, our short comings within our own Intelligence agencies proves that.
It failed on 9-11, and was failing for many years before that.

MY view goes way deeper than G.W. Bush, or any President for that matter.

I agree, and you have to chip away at the stone. gw is the facade.

Cathedral
10-20-2004, 05:41 PM
Soory, my previous post was supposed to be a direct Ford quote, i hit the wrong damn button.

LOL, I bet you hope that happens when i go to vote, but it won't.

ODShowtime
10-20-2004, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Al Qaeda is the result of muslim extremists becoming terrorists.

And why are the muslim extremists so pissed off god damnit? Cue Ford:

Warham
10-20-2004, 05:44 PM
It's not because of Bush.

wraytw
10-20-2004, 05:46 PM
Originally posted by Warham
It's not because of Bush.

It is, partly.

Warham
10-20-2004, 05:46 PM
Israel is the answer.

ODShowtime
10-20-2004, 05:47 PM
gw didn't personally initiate anything to piss of the muslims. oh wait except when we took over two of their countries. But they were already pissed before that.

Poverty is the key and that is not entirely our fault...

ODShowtime
10-20-2004, 05:47 PM
Why are they mad at Israel?

Jerry Falwell
10-20-2004, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by ODShowtime
And why are the muslim extremists so pissed off god damnit? Cue Ford:

They don't even know why they are pissed off... they just are. I personally believe it's because they Hate Christians and Jews because everything we stand for contradicts their religion. I really think this is the root of all the hatred.

By the way... it's pretty week to cue someone else to arfgue for you. No offense, but that's the way it appears at least.

Warham
10-20-2004, 05:48 PM
Originally posted by wraytw
It is, partly.

It is?

Then what were they mad at when they bombed the Cole and WTC in '93 when Clinton was in office?

Did they home omniscience and plan ahead of time, knowing Bush was going to win in 2000?

ODShowtime
10-20-2004, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Falwell
By the way... it's pretty week to cue someone else to arfgue for you. No offense, but that's the way it appears at least.

Thanks Jerry. I'll remember that next time before I go begging for Ford's help. :rolleyes:

FORD
10-20-2004, 05:50 PM
The CIA and the oil companies have a lot to do with it, and both have deep ties to the BCE. And obviously the one sided support (especially the illiegal arming part) of Israel hasn't exactly helped matters.

wraytw
10-20-2004, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by Jerry Falwell
They don't even know why they are pissed off... they just are. I personally believe it's because they Hate Christians and Jews because everything we stand for contradicts their religion. I really think this is the root of all the hatred.


That's part of it. The most prevalent part is our presence in the Middle East (Which goes way beyond G.W. Bush). When we can reduce our dependence on foreign sources of energy, we'll be much better off. In the short term and in the long term.

ODShowtime
10-20-2004, 05:52 PM
Thanks man you saved me there! :)

ODShowtime
10-20-2004, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by wraytw
The most prevalent part is our presence in the Middle East When we can reduce our dependence on foreign sources of energy, we'll be much better off. In the short term and in the long term.

I agree 100%

Warham
10-20-2004, 05:57 PM
The Middle East, specifically Iraq, has a long and bloody history going back thousands of years. George W. Bush is not the reason it started or the reason it continues. If Kerry is elected, it'll still continue. If there's a peace treaty in Israel, it might stop, but that will clue me in that something bigger is happening. I've always thought that no mere mortal was going to be able to keep the peace in that region. It's just not going to happen. You can only hope that it doesn't get more out of hand than it already is.

wraytw
10-20-2004, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Warham
It is?

Then what were they mad at when they bombed the Cole and WTC in '93 when Clinton was in office?

The same thing they are mad at Bush for. We are in their "Holy Land" and frankly, they are a little pissed off about it. Now don't think that I'm justifying anyone's actions. I'm not. What they are doing isn't right, but there is a reason for it. I don't think we are wrong, either. I agree with both the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. But we need to finish the job, get off the dependency of foreign oil, and do our best to work with other countries to solve the problem. This is a fine line, and it's most definitely not black and white.

Niether of these candidates seem to get the complete picture, but I'll take Bush's plan over Kerry's any day of the week.

ODShowtime
10-20-2004, 06:00 PM
Once we reduce dependence on their oil, we take away demand for oil and cut off the flow of their money.

They would then recede back into the desert and revert to being nomadic camel herders and date farmers, which is about all their backwards society can possibly support.

Cathedral
10-20-2004, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by ODShowtime
And why are the muslim extremists so pissed off god damnit? Cue Ford:

Good question, I just touched on this in another thread.

It is because throughout history we have appeased the dictators that have opressed them.
We made deals with them when we had the power to remove them.

This is the general consensus by interviews conducted in the countries where each of the 9-11 terrorists were from.

Liek i said, Terrorism is a broader issue than who we have in the White House.

ODShowtime
10-20-2004, 06:02 PM
The problem is that the root of this problem all goes back to the people who support gw and are trying to keep him in power.

FORD
10-20-2004, 06:12 PM
There's always been some animosity between the native populations of the region. But the major "terrorist" groups such as Al Qaeda and Hamas are a fairly new phenomenon. That's because these groups were deliberately created as weapons of government intelligence, with Hamas being created specifically as a tool of Israel to undermine Arafat's PLO. And Al Qaeda being an extention of Osama Bin Laden's "Mujahadeen", a CIA created and trained guerilla organization designed with the original purpose of driving the Soviets out of Afghanistan.

It's these "terrorist Frankensteins" that are causing the majority of the problems, not the usual tribal skirmishes over camel ownership or whatever.And the best thing that can be done about that is by dismantling the power structures that encouraged their creation and allowed for their continued existance. The Likud Party of Israel, and the BCE - neocon wing of the Republican party in the US. These are the true roots of terrorism, and they must be brought down and eliminated before any true war on terror can be won.

diamond den™
10-20-2004, 07:38 PM
I love to leech off the America

4moreyears
10-24-2004, 05:23 PM
MY view goes way deeper than G.W. Bush, or any President for that matter.

Amen to that brother.

JH