Which bands have started good but gotten even better?

[Golden AWe]

This has been up in many conversations lately. Most bands only manage to make great albums early in their careers, and then sink, or do good stuff later on but not as good as in the beginning, like Metallica, AC/DC, Def Leppard, Black Sabbath, Eddie Van Halen, Aerosmith...

Which bands have managed to get better after a few albums/later in their careers?

I'd say Pink Floyd started good, some of the Syd Barrett-stuff is very good, but they reached their absolute prime later on, "Wish you were here", "Dark side of the moon", "Animals", "The Wall".

Deep Purple was great in the beginning, but didn't reach their prime until a few albums and some changes in the line-up.

How to avoid the slump? Who has managed to do that?

Discuss. :cato:

[VanJay011379]

These bands/artists are very few and far between.

I would say the following:

Zakk Wylde's Black Label Society (1919 Eternal and Blessed Hellride own even though Hangover Music was kind of a dud)

Bruce Dickinson of Iron Maiden (Chemical Wedding is one of the best albums period and his early solo efforts were mediocre)

Guns N Roses (started with Appetite for Destruction and went to write the Use Your Illusions, which are the last real rock albums ever made)

Ted Nugent (his latest offerring Craveman drips with attitude and leaves no apologies. Even his previous Spirit of the Wild was cool and the Live album Full Bluntal Nugity is my favorite live album ever)

I agree with Pink Floyd

[Coyote]

ZZ Top, Cheap Trick, Budgie, Hendrix, etc...

[Golden AWe]

It's my own fault I didn't make it clear enough but I meant bands/artists with longer careers, I mean GNR and Hendrix f.e. didn't make that many albums so it's hard to tell if they could've managed to keep it up longer.

Led Zeppelin, in my opinion, could be one of them, considering Physical Graffiti and Houses Of The Holy are probably even better than the first four albums...if that is possible. They did do worse with Coda with their last few albums...

[lms2]

Well, since we have yet to see what Van Halen can do with Dave some 20 years later... I will have to wait to comment!

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by lms2
Well, since we have yet to see what Van Halen can do with Dave some 20 years later... I will have to wait to comment!

Yup...well, that's why I've put Eddie Van Halen on the NOT-list...his productivity went down after the first six albums and he became repetitive...

[lms2]

But you didn't say they to had to get contiually better... you just said they had to get better.

Does that include better from where they are right now, or from where they started out at?

Anything would be an improvement from right now... meaning the three new songs, not that one in particular.

[Golden AWe]

i don't exactly know what i meant really, anymore.

i think i meant that they have managed to do good stuff after "the old stuff" too, you know, Van Halen managed to keep up the level all thru the six albums, but Eddie started stinking after that...

[nosuchluck]

i'd say Savatage - they've aged really well.
and Freak Kitchen - Swedish band with a monster of a guitarist Mattias IA Eklundh. their albums have progressively gotten better.
Rush is another great band that has kept its legacy intact.

[Mr Badguy]

Yeah, I would say Rush.

Their early albums were alright but "2112" was a quantum leap in terms of material.

And Queensryche, ditto "Rage for order", although they have fallen by the wayside slightly.

[Matt White]

Gov't Mule
The Byrds
Stevie Ray Vaughan
Johnnie Cash(The last 10+ years of his life were BRILLIANT!)
Wilco
The Drive-By Truckers
Alice in Chains
Dream Theater
MOTORHEAD
Neil Young

[Golden AWe]

yesss, Johnny Cash, he made some bad poop in the 80's but came back with some really goo material after that...R.I.P.

I'd add Black Crowes to the list...I have enjoyed all their albums, except for Three Snakes and One Charm, which only had a few grate songs...

Alice In Chains - well, Jerry Cantrell has always been productive but poor Layne didn't make that many albums...

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by Mr Badguy
Yeah, I would say Rush.

Their early albums were alright but "2112" was a quantum leap in terms of material.

And Queensryche, ditto "Rage for order", although they have fallen by the wayside slightly.

I don't own a single Rush-album, I have liked what I've heard from them, but I haven't had time to get any of their albums - there's never time to check out all the grate artists...where should I start?

I do enjoy a lot of progressive rock so I'd like to expand to Rush now...

[Matt White]

2112, Hemispheres, Moving Pictures, & Signals are all very good.
RETROSPECTIVE I & II are a good place to start.

[Mr Badguy]

Yeah, I started with "2112".

The 20 minute title track is awesome, although the other tracks aren`t as strong.

It is hard to pick a "definitive" Rush LP as they are all so varied.

I would agree with "Hemispheres", "Signals" or "Moving pictures" but also "A farewell to kings" and I loved their latest CD "Vapor trails".

Anything between 1976-1988 is from the golden age of Rush, nine studio albums and three live albums and none of them are less than very good.

[Wayne L.]

The Beatles, the Stones & the Who started good & got even better.

[Don Corleone]

No one has mentioned The Beatles yet. They stated off good (With the Beatles, Beatles for Sale), and just got kept on getting better (Sgt Pepper, Revolver, The White Album)

[nosuchluck]

also Iron Maiden - they've kept it together quite well.

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by nosuchluck
i'd say Savatage - they've aged really well.

No, they haven't. Those worthless assholes have given up on their fans, their original base of music, touring like a REAL outfit, and even their own careers in favor of side-projects. Savatage is over and has been over since Criss died. Too bad Jon's just been too fucking ignorant to see it.

[bueno bob]

My vote? Opeth.

[nosuchluck]

dont want to get into any arguments, but i quite liked Post- Criss Oliva Savatage. Criss will always definitely be one of my all-time favs though.

[Mr Badguy]

Hey, how about Journey?

There early stuff was unlistenable jazz/rock fusion before they started turning out platinum AOR albums.

[Nickdfresh]

U2- "Achtung Baby"- 'knuff said.

[rustoffa]

Black Flag and the Damned are good examples of change, the argument for the better or not is completely subjective.

Black Flag's early output was pretty much socal hardcore compared to extremely heavy later stuff like "Process of weeding out", "In my head", etc. I personally think the later stuff is brilliant and greatly underrated.

The Damned were the first British "punk" band, and in true "punk" fashion made fun of their own genre. It's amazing the band even survived with the constant lineup changes. (Lemmy was actually there briefly)

"The Black Album" and "Strawberries" are incredibly complex recordings compared to the early "punk" stuff while flashes were still there.

After that, Vanian and Sensible single-handedly created Goth as an inside joke to piss Scabies off. (That's an extremely subjective personal opinion)
:D

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by nosuchluck
dont want to get into any arguments, but i quite liked Post- Criss Oliva Savatage. Criss will always definitely be one of my all-time favs though.

Here's why I HATE Savatage.

I supported Savatage DIE HARD since 1987..."Hall of the Mountain King"...I turned them onto more people than the fucking radio did over the years...

The problems that I had with Savatage really began in 1993, right after Criss' death. Wes Garren and Andy James were really fucked out of their jobs, which kinda pissed me off, but I was still EXTREMELY happy to see Savatage continuing, in whatever form. "Handful of Rain" was a great record, by all means, and I thought a very fitting way to send off the band, which is what I figured they were doing - a final album with one of Criss' fans (Alex Skolnik) on guitar, and HoR was going to be a "farewell" to Criss and the band. Very fitting, I thought.

But - they didn't do that.

Instead of continuing Savatage "for the fans", they got Al Pitrelli to play guitar. My immediate problem with that was that Al DIDN'T EVEN KNOW Savatage from jack shit...was never a fan, didn't understand the music, etc. Great guitarist, but flaky and unreliable when it came to being with bands. However, Biff Ranger (Chris Caffery) had came back, so I wasn't too overwhelminly concerned - I figured this was going to be the big tour (I hadn't been able to see them live since the "Streets" tour, for reasons that were totally reasonable). "Dead Winter Dead" came out, and it wasn't really a very great album.

Instead of the big tour that was promised, they took a bus trip down the east coast then headed to Europe for a few months to tour with other bands before calling it good. OK, whatever.

Trans-Siberian Orchestra (AKA Sava-Lite) came around thereafter and they had a great deal of success with it. Sweet! We finally got some recognition after all the years of basically ZERO coverage. Maybe it would be a good launching pad for getting Savatage some credibility in the world.

Nope.

Between DWD and "The Wake of Magellan", there was a pretty significant wait while nothing was happening, other than a few best-of imports, which I bought as they had unreleased tracks on them. TWoM wasn't exactly a great album, either...getting ENTIRELY too Broadway with it's approach and abandoning the metal that Savatage was known for almost entirely. However, this time (1998), there was a promised MASSIVE WORLD TOUR, etc, to make up for the dropped ball on the DWD leg.

Nope again! Just kidding!

After about 13 U.S. shows (all on the east coast), they again hightailed it to Europe to play with other bands (usually opening) and called it good after a few months of that. "Sorry guys - we'll see you all next time!" More of the bullshit that accompanied the DWD failure to actually tour.

By now, I was starting to get slightly pissed and starting to feel kinda shafted, especially after their so-called "fan club" ripped me right the fuck off for a LOT of money...sent them a TON of cash for Savatage merchandise (which is harder than shit to find, anyway), and they got it, cashed the check, and promptly closed their doors. That wasn't the first time I had been fucked over by their fan club - back in 1988, I sent a bunch of money for shit and all I got in return for my trouble was a letter from the drummer's (Steve Wacholz) mother telling me to call MTV and request the video for "When the Crowds Are Gone". And that was ALL I got. Sent a letter back to complain and it came back to me about 2 weeks later as "undeliverable".

Savatage then promptly proceeds to do nothing...Al Pitrelli goes to tour for Megadeth during the down time, and ends up quitting Savatage outright at the end of that jaunt to join Megadeth full time (Al Pitrelli joining ANOTHER band? Go figure!). Zak Stevens quits and goes to form Circle II Circle, leaving Savatage as a four piece again. TSO keeps doing it's Christmas thing and does it's 2000 "Beethoven's Last Night" album, which totally sucked. Atlantic finally drops them and they sign to Nuclear Blast, which at the time I was in support of - a lot of support from a little label is better than no support from a monster label, right?

I got REALLY stoked when that happened and 2001 had "Poets and Madmen" showing up with Jon singing lead full-time again. The most immediate problem was that Poets and Madmen was virtually fucking UNAVAILABLE in the U.S. thanks to NB for months, and I had to import a copy from Germany (at the cost of about $35). Big massive world tour planned, etc etc...they hired two guys into the band to replace the departed Zak and Al, Damond Jiniya to sing and Jack Frost to pick up guitar duties - I was glad. Damond sounded like a great vocalist with an extremely good range (wouldn't know for sure, though) and Jack Frost had been a professed fan of Savatage for a LONG time.

No big world tour followed, just another bus trip down the east coast and then off to Europe to open for Judas Priest. The usual "Sorry guys, catch you next time!" shit followed...of course, you could go see TSO play live, but tickets for that will run you at least $45 and you won't hear any Savatage material at all, so...that was even worse then the last couple of blown tours, because after all the great talk about how wonderful a singer Damond was, practically fucking nobody outside of the east coast or Europe has had a chance to hear him.

What really pissed me off, though, was when, after announcing that Jack Frost and Damond Jiniya were PERMANENT replacements, Al Pitrelli found himself out of a job when Dave decided Megadeth was over and one phone call later - Jack Frost is out of a job and Al Pitrelli gets his gig back. That just struck me as low class, and I didn't really care for the lame-ass excuses Chris Caffery or Savatage.com had to offer for it.

The usual bullshit has followed...TSO taking center of the priorities, everybody's involved in hundreds of side projects, blah blah blah...we came up to the 10th anneversary of Criss' death, and instead of doing something (like a REAL TOUR) for THE FANS WHO SUPPORTED HIM FOR ALL THOSE YEARS, they decide to play a one-off oddball show in Florida to celebrate it...and "If you're a TRUE Savatage fan, you'll find a way to get to Florida to see it!" was pretty much the response when anybody NOT in Florida said "WHAT THE FUCK???"

I have three fuckin' kids, a job, and a life here. I spent a LOT of my youth (and money) trying to do my best to support that band and their complete dismissal over the years of me and the fans like me was just more than I was willing to tolerate, so I signed off of the Savatage message board (their website hasn't been updated in ages and the message board has been closed even longer) for the last time and basically gave Savatage Inc. the middle finger on my way out. I'd just fucking had it with being treated and told that "I wasn't as good of a fan as the people in Florida and Europe and the east coast". Fuck them. I've got other bands I could support, bands that are actually willing to fucking appreciate it to a degree by bothering to tour when and where they say they're going to. A few years back, I even went as far out of my way as to organizing money for transportation, food, free lodging and payment for their time IF they'd come out to play a show. Had an interested venue that was willing to talk to them. Myself and about 20 others were going to cover ALL the expenses, JUST so we could see them. The response I got said, simply, "Sorry, tours over - see you next time!" Nothing more, no "Thanks for the effort", nothing. But for that, I got the fun of listening to them harp on about how IMPORTANT other members of their community were - the members that lived within driving distance, anyway. At that point, I pretty much decided they were just assholes, plain and simple. Realistically, there wasn't any other conclusion to arrive at. Why support a band when everywhere you turn, you're confronted with evidence that they don't WANT your support?

Jon Oliva just recently made the statement that Savatage won't do ANYTHING until at least 2007, the 25th anneversary. Now how much do you wanna bet that's going to be a one-off show in Florida at this point? Myself, I'd bet a LOT because it's smart money.

I am truly saddened that Savatage didn't split up after Criss' death. Criss was SO MUCH a lifeline to that band, and they've never been the same after that. I tried for a LONG time to reconcile all of the bullshit I saw going on within the ranks, but eventually I just grew so frustrated I couldn't deal with it anymore. They've completely insulated themselves in their own private universe and alienated everyone out here who supported them for years on end. It was a really rough transition to make, because I loved that band for so many years...but now, they can stay in that little private universe and go to fuck-all for all I care.

[guwapo_rocker]

Originally posted by Mr Badguy
Yeah, I would say Rush.

Their early albums were alright but "2112" was a quantum leap in terms of material.

And Queensryche, ditto "Rage for order", although they have fallen by the wayside slightly.

But RUSH went in the toilet after Moving Pictures IMO.

[Mr Badguy]

Originally posted by guwapo_rocker
But RUSH went in the toilet after Moving Pictures IMO.

Yes, if you don`t like keyboards.

I loved their experiments with synths on "Signals", "Grace under pressure" and "Power windows" althought they may have went too far on "Hold your fire".

I don`t think Rush would be around today if they didn`t make those albums the way they did.

[nosuchluck]

@bueno bob - wow, thats a whole lot of shit i didnt know abt Savatage. I guess i don't look at it from more than musical stand point cos no International rock band ever plays out here( i'm from India) and also i heard the later Savatage albums(which i liked) before the Criss-era ones.
but yeah, if i were in ur place, i'd feel the same way abt them too.

[Big Troubles]

Originally posted by guwapo_rocker
But RUSH went in the toilet after Moving Pictures IMO.

:D LOL

Rush was shit after 2112 IMO.
Scorpions were crap in the early years of their career, then got better ten fold. ZZ Top is the opposite for me. They were better "back in the day". In other words everything they did before Eliminator was Gold and everything after that album was silver at best. Nice pic Guwapo!

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by nosuchluck
@bueno bob - wow, thats a whole lot of shit i didnt know abt Savatage. I guess i don't look at it from more than musical stand point cos no International rock band ever plays out here( i'm from India) and also i heard the later Savatage albums(which i liked) before the Criss-era ones.
but yeah, if i were in ur place, i'd feel the same way abt them too.

From a musical standpoint solely, I'd say they've gone in a vastly different direction more than improving outright...but it's a bit of a more mature direction, I'll admit that much :) Savatage always has been about top of the line musicianship, there's no arguing that.

[Rikk]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
I'd add Black Crowes to the list...I have enjoyed all their albums, except for Three Snakes and One Charm, which only had a few grate songs...

I love AMORICA. That record is perfect from beginning to end. And the last one was also very good.

[VHII]

id say aerosmith

[ODShowtime]

Beastie Boys got a hell of lot better by their second album and just keep getting better and better.

Fleetwood Mac sure changed a lot. And sold a fuckload more records with Stevie Nicks than they did with the genius of Peter Green.

George Clinton got a lot crazier through the years...

And the Grateful Dead too. They sucked some balls in the mid 60s and the 90s, but they kicked ass in the 70s.