You might be a LIBERAL If...

[DaveIsKing]

You might be a liberal if . . .

You think that consenting adults can engage freely in every activity except capitalism.

You named your children Moonglow and Arizona.

You think the really alarming violence takes place outside the abortion clinic.

You’ve ever referred to the “root cause” of something.

You pray to “The Woman Upstairs.”

You think we never gave peace a chance.

You had to be told that “Manhattan,” “menopause” and “boycott” were not sexist words

You begin sentences with the words “I feel.”

Your driver’s license has a hyphen because for you one last name just isn’t enough.

You don’t think “All in the Family” is a very funny program, but watch it anyway because Meathead makes a lot of sense.

You think OJ is out looking for the real killers.

You think Julia Sugarbaker is an astute social commentator.

You think it takes a village.

You think that the words “to promote the general welfare” in the Constitution mean to promote welfare generally.

You think that, even though more people voted against him than for him in both the 1992 and the 1996 presidential elections, Bill Clinton had a mandate.

You think that conservatives, like preservatives, ought to be federally regulated.

You ever wore earth shoes.

You have ever wondered out loud, “Why can’t we all just get along?”

You think the New York Times prints all the news that’s fit.

You think that Rush Limbaugh is just an entertainer.

You spent Columbus Day reading Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee.

You reach the limits of your talent and then complain that you ran into a glass ceiling.

You wear more ribbons on your lapel than in your hair.

You think that the really dangerous McCarthy was Joe, not Eugene.

You blame the Unabomber’s parents.

You fail to see the connection between Lenin and Lennon.

You have ever agreed with Martin Sheen or Barbra Streisand.

[Jesus Christ]

Judge not lest ye be judged -

From the true founder of Liberalism, ME!:mad:

[DaveIsKing]

So, you and Satan are on the same side.

[Jesus Christ]

Satan is a neoconservative. For it is the Devil who created selfishness and greed, which is the basis of all neoconservative thought.

[Snow Ho]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Judge not lest ye be judged -



what is that supposed to mean anyway?

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
So, you and Satan are on the same side.

Satan...also known as "Lucifer"...also known as "Morning Star" - translating into "Light Bringer", roughly...original position in Heaven? Bring mankind closer to God by testing his virtue and putting him through tribulations.

Now, riddle me this:

Don't you think Satan STILL works for God in an abject sense? :)

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Satan is a neoconservative. For it is the Devil who created selfishness and greed, which is the basis of all neoconservative thought.

I thought you created everything.

Contradiction?

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by Snow Ho
what is that supposed to mean anyway?

Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Snow Ho
what is that supposed to mean anyway?

It means "He who is without sin among you, let him cast the first stone."

In a nutshell.

[DaveIsKing]

In a nutshell...it's bullshit.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by bueno bob
I thought you created everything.

Contradiction?

Dad and I did not create sins. These were given unto man from the Devil, who roameth around like a lion, seeking whom he may devour with sin and evil.

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
You might be a liberal if . . .

You think that consenting adults can engage freely in every activity except capitalism.

You named your children Moonglow and Arizona.

You think the really alarming violence takes place outside the abortion clinic.

You’ve ever referred to the “root cause” of something.

You pray to “The Woman Upstairs.”

You think we never gave peace a chance.

You had to be told that “Manhattan,” “menopause” and “boycott” were not sexist words

You begin sentences with the words “I feel.”

Your driver’s license has a hyphen because for you one last name just isn’t enough.

You don’t think “All in the Family” is a very funny program, but watch it anyway because Meathead makes a lot of sense.

You think OJ is out looking for the real killers.

You think Julia Sugarbaker is an astute social commentator.

You think it takes a village.

You think that the words “to promote the general welfare” in the Constitution mean to promote welfare generally.

You think that, even though more people voted against him than for him in both the 1992 and the 1996 presidential elections, Bill Clinton had a mandate.

You think that conservatives, like preservatives, ought to be federally regulated.

You ever wore earth shoes.

You have ever wondered out loud, “Why can’t we all just get along?”

You think the New York Times prints all the news that’s fit.

You think that Rush Limbaugh is just an entertainer.

You spent Columbus Day reading Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee.

You reach the limits of your talent and then complain that you ran into a glass ceiling.

You wear more ribbons on your lapel than in your hair.

You think that the really dangerous McCarthy was Joe, not Eugene.

You blame the Unabomber’s parents.

You fail to see the connection between Lenin and Lennon.

You have ever agreed with Martin Sheen or Barbra Streisand.

Very funny, btw!

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Dad and I did not create sins. These were given unto man from the Devil, who roameth around like a lion, seeking whom he may devour with sin and evil.

AH, but you created Morning Star as your perfect angel, erego you two (or one, however you'll choose to define your duality) are half responsible for dropping the ball in that regards.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
In a nutshell...it's bullshit.

Ye are accusing Me of "bullshit"??

[bueno bob]

Had you not created Morningstar (and, arguably, KNOWN what his eventual rebellion would lead to - the creation fo sin and evil), then you could have washed your hands of the whole mess of it and mankind would have been a lot better off in the long term of it, no?

[DaveIsKing]

He's got a point there, Nazarene

[bueno bob]

Either you're omnipotent or you're not. If you're NOT, than there's a religious contradiction to be gained, but you're off the hook so far as the responsibility for the creation of sin and evil is concerned.

However, if you ARE truly omnipotent, then you KNEW before hand that Morning Star would revolt against your kingdom, and by still creating him, virtually paved the way for the creation of sin and deceit. Your Godhead's description to mass of people familiar with you is accurate, and you DO truly know all things and ARE the alpha and omega - however, you're still on the hook for getting us into a lot of this shit in the first place.

Jesus, when I pass on, you and I are going to have to do some SERIOUS brainstorming on this issue.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by bueno bob
AH, but you created Morning Star as your perfect angel, erego you two (or one, however you'll choose to define your duality) are half responsible for dropping the ball in that regards.

Lucifer was created as the brightest of the angels. Pride was his original sin and the one which made him think he knew better than Dad. But it was not Us who caused him to sin. At the time, his transgression saddenned Me. He was the first musician. Taught the other angels how to play the harp, and even created Gabriel's trumpet. But, verily, he chose his own path, and his eternity in Hell :(

[DaveIsKing]

He's cooking your ass, Nazarene

[Warham]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Matthew 7
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

It doesn't mean that you can't tell somebody that they are wrong about something. I believe Jesus was saying here that we should not have a judgemental attitude, because that is how He will judge us on the last day. It is still perfectly acceptable to point out if somebody is wrong in doing something, but not to be judgemental about it. Many Christians condemn people to Hell for their actions when they do not know what is in the hearts of these folks. Only the Father knows their hearts. I believe that if you point out somebody's misdeeds, do so in an nonjudemental way. That is what I believe Jesus was saying here.

Also, when Jesus speaks of casting your pearls before swine, I believe he is saying to pick your spots when you point out flaws in someone else. Certain offenders do NOT want to hear it, and will mock you in return, but others do not even realize when they do something wrong. These are the people to cast your pearls to.

Very wise words by Christ.

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Lucifer was created as the brightest of the angels. Pride was his original sin and the one which made him think he knew better than Dad. But it was not Us who caused him to sin. At the time, his transgression saddenned Me. He was the first musician. Taught the other angels how to play the harp, and even created Gabriel's trumpet. But, verily, he chose his own path, and his eternity in Hell :(

Point, but that doesn't really answer the question.

IS THERE FREE WILL OR NOT?

Moreover, if Lucifer had the alternative to choose his own free will and you DIDN'T see it coming, then you're NOT omnipotent and that totally wrecks your Godhead mythos and history right there and proves that you lied when you said "I am the Alpha and Omega...the beginning and the end", because, in truth, you WOULDN'T be.

If there's some logic I'm missing, feel free to fill in the blanks, because I've had a good many years to think about it. Now that we're actually chatting, I'd LOVE your input as to the X factor I may be missing in my train of thought.

[DaveIsKing]

Vader is on a roll.

[bueno bob]

There's just a lot of grey area that you never really cleared up here...and if you're seeing the eventual outcome without the grey in the middle, well...

Listen, either you see all/know all or you don't, there really aren't any other ways around it - UNLESS -

You created Morning Star as AN ABSOLUTE EQUAL to your own self, with the same powers and the same infinity and the same omniscience.

And if THAT'S the case, then everything written in your book of Revelation is NOT canon, just a best educated guess - and if THAT ends up being the case, then NOTHING ELSE in your entire book can be considered as canon, either.

You see the paradox we're faced with here, Lord?

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
Vader is on a roll.

Thank you kindly :)

I've had a good many years to think of this, but I'm certain the Nazarene well knows that.

Maybe.

Depending on how He answers...

[Warham]

Originally posted by bueno bob
Either you're omnipotent or you're not. If you're NOT, than there's a religious contradiction to be gained, but you're off the hook so far as the responsibility for the creation of sin and evil is concerned.

However, if you ARE truly omnipotent, then you KNEW before hand that Morning Star would revolt against your kingdom, and by still creating him, virtually paved the way for the creation of sin and deceit. Your Godhead's description to mass of people familiar with you is accurate, and you DO truly know all things and ARE the alpha and omega - however, you're still on the hook for getting us into a lot of this shit in the first place.

Jesus, when I pass on, you and I are going to have to do some SERIOUS brainstorming on this issue.

God doesn't deserve the blame for sin being created. You could say that He is responsible in that He created Lucifer, the first sinner, and all those who followed, but that would be akin to blaming you if your child committed a felony.

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Warham
God doesn't deserve the blame for sin being created. You could say that He is responsible in that He created Lucifer, the first sinner, and all those who followed, but that would be akin to blaming you if your child committed a felony.

Not unless my child CREATED the whole concept of "crime" and the world had been utterly peaceful prior to that.

You can't judge this by a human standard, because we're not dealing with human limitations, here. We're talking about the infinite, and by putting a human limitation on it, the problem cannot be solved.

[Warham]

So what's the question then Darth?

I can try to answer it for you, if you want the imput that is.

[bueno bob]

Well, let's for a moment then put a human spin on the immortal issue:

I'm hanging out in my apartment. I sees my son come into the living room with a ski mask on and an AK47 in his hands, says he's going to go the bank.

If I saw my kid doing that, well, I'd certainly stop him, regardless, because it's not only to HIS betterment that I do so, but it's to his prospective victims betterment that I do so as well. I do the right thing, stop my son from robbing the bank, and not only does my kid get to keep his ass out of the sling, but I just made the bank workers day A LOT better in the process. Plus I don't have to deal with the heartache that my son went astray and broke the laws, so it works out in my favor as well - doesn't split my family up - everybody wins.

Back to the infinite problem now: Let's say I knew in advance, PRIOR to my son even being conceived, that he was going to turn out bad - rotten - worse than any other human could ever possibly hope to be and the amount of damage he was going to do to the human race would make Hitler, Stalin and every other dictator/mass murder/et al PALE in comparison for the ENTIRE HISTORY of mankind.

I wouldn't be bothered to create him. Not at all. My wife's just going to have to close her legs that night and deal with masterbation or something because, being infinite, I can determine whether or not I want to have ANY children, especially THIS particular child.

Now, Christianity would have us believe that God is infinite, and I can accept that. Christianity would also have us believe that God, in addition to being infinite, is also infinitely loving, compassionate, merciful, and wants nothing more than THE BEST for every human being. Ever. I can accept that as well.

Now, slight of being infinite BORED, I can't see any reason to create Morning Star knowing full well in advance that the eventual outcome of his existance is to solely throw a wrench into the works of the machinery.

Mankind, without Satan's influence, would live today in the Garden of Eden, all of our wants and desires would not exist because everything would be provided for us - we would walk in the presence of God, know Him, love Him, and be able to communicate DIRECTLY with Him at any time our hearts so desired.

All due to Satan's intervention in the Garden of Eden, this is shot and unobtainable until we die and meet our reward, so long as we accept Christ into our hearts and make our lives decisions accordingly.

I can understand the creation of free will among humanity - omniscience on the part of God would require nothing less, because otherwise there'd be no purpose to the point of the human experiment anyway, not so far as my understanding (human understanding, thus meaning "limited") would be concerned.

What I don't understand is allowing the road to become difficult when the aim is to get everyone home in the first place. It's much like knowing you have half a tank left in the car, yet you're pretty sure it's going to take more than that to get to your driveway. You might make it, you might not...those are not good odds to me, and I can't understand why the infinite, compassionate, loving God that we've all been raised on would intentionally allow the path to Him to become littered with tribulations when it wasn't really necessary in the first place, considering that the eventual aims could have been accomplished just as easily.

Defeating that, if Satan's the control factor in the experiment, then I can't see why a the universes ultimate scientist would sabotage his own petrie dish.

[bueno bob]

Unless, of course, omniscience over infinity beyond measure had made Him infinitely bored and the results of doing so would prove "interesting".

If that's the case, I can accept that, but in doing so it certainly changes my view of the infinitely loving God...I'm forced to see Him more as a scientist that's interested in the eventual outcome of the project, without so much care for the individual test results as much as the overall ending summary, and not as the compassionate Big Daddy that the churches project His image as.

[bueno bob]

Now I've asked those things of church heads, made many of the same arguments - mostly what I've got are a lot of exasperated looks and a lot of "Be faithful and God will provide you the answers when you're ready."

That, to me, is a cop-out of an intelligent, civil discussion, based on my opinion that many church heads don't have a good answer for them and are too quick to anger when confronted by the possibility of a good clean argument (and I don't mean argument in the yelling sense, I mean it in the debatorial sense).

I think mankind has perverted the original message terribly over the years. The message is still a good one, whether you're a faith-based individual or not, but the concept of "blind faith" is destructive; the only thing more destructive than that is the precept of self interpretation, which the churches invite when they ignore or try to write off logical arguments like this.

[Warham]

I believe that God is JUST more than he is loving or compassionate.

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Warham
I believe that God is JUST more than he is loving or compassionate.

OK, well and good. But...we're still not at the heart of the issue, are we?

The heart of the issue is, is God infinite? Does He see all/know all, beginning, middle, end, the number of hairs on your head, etc? If so, why create Lucifer in the first place knowing full well the trouble that He KNEW Lucifer was GOING to cause for all of mankind? Wouldn't He therefore be responsible for the suffering that Lucifer's caused over the last millenia due to his foreknowledge of the problem and STILL allowing it to progress?

If he's NOT infinite (which would mean we can't blame Him for what his any of His angels did, Lucifer or the ones that joined with him), then what else are we missing from what we've been told? How are we certain that Satan and evil will be defeated? It opens up a whole new can of worms just by that one concession.

How do you know He's even paying attention anymore, if the issue of infinity is broken down by this reasoning? How do you know He hasn't moved on to another project on some other plane of reality and just abandoned the whole of the human race entirely? If infinite boredom as the result of infinite knowledge is the reasoning behind the creation of free will, what's to stop an infinite being from just packing up and moving on to something more interesting when the mood strikes?

Moreover, as a side note, isn't it said of angels that they were created perfectly? If that was the case, then why did they go unto mankind to procreate? That being the case, as it is written that they did so, I can only consider the possibility that angels are indeed fallible and prone to human wants/needs or desires...and what's to stop yet another one from rebelling? Or another legion? It's a definite possibility, due to the point that they're obviously fallible and prone to human drives as well as we are. Why would Lucifer find the need to rebel against the throne in the first place? How was he able to take so many angels to his side for his rebellion? If Heaven's indeed a perfect place, the pinnacle of immortal existance, paradise to a definition, wouldn't that absolutely by definition negate the need or any possible desire to attack the thone?

We always say "in a perfect world"; well, if Heaven was that perfect world, Lucifer's desires, EVIL by definition, would never have existed unless they were put there by someone in the first place.

Hmm?

I am more than willing to listen to ideas on these things, trust me...

[Warham]

I don't know if you want me to expand on that thought.

[DEMON CUNT]

Ha! You believe in god! What a simple little creature you are.

http://www.albertmorse.net/cal-folsom/pair-fags.jpg

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Warham
I don't know if you want me to expand on that thought.

I edited, you might want to re-look it over.

[Switch84]

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
Vader is on a roll.


:p No, "Vader" isn't. Cyber-yapping with a person using the name "Jesus Christ" as his/her username and taking it literally is dumb at best.

You either have faith in the Holy Trinity or you don't. Simple as that, folks. And you don't have to believe at all.

Free will is real.

[Warham]

Humans would have sinned regardless of whether God had created Lucifer or not. Lucifer is a good example of somebody who had it all, beauty, brains, power and lost it all because of inherent pride, by placing himself above his creator. He was not humble.

I believe that sin is a part of God's plan. Without sin, nobody could love God in the way that he wants us to love Him.

Angels were created without imperfections yes. But that being said, it is still possible to sin, because of free will. God cannot sin because God was not created. He laid down the ground rules, in their best interests. They refused to follow these rules. That's when inequity began.

Some actually believe that Lucifer sinned after man was created, because he realized that in God's plan man would eventually be put on a higher pedestal than the angels. Lucifer could not believe that someone such as himself could be considered lower than these creatures God created, so he himself rebelled and then caused Adam and Eve to sin, hoping to destroy God's plan. But God saw this coming, and if you read Genesis 3:15, the Bible's first prophecy, he lays the smackdown on Satan, ensuring that a future messiah would crush him.

For your refence on the angels coming down during the days of Noah?

I believe this was actually a plan created by Satan to try to stop God from following through on His plan for a messiah as spoken of in Genesis 3:15. God insisted that the messiah would come from the seed of the woman (Eve). If Satan could somehow 'dirty up' the gene pool with having a horde of lusty fallen angels come down and interbreed with human women, then even the better. Only problem is, God had a plan for this too...the Flood. As this Godless behavior was going down, God chose a descendant of Seth (Adam's third son), Noah, and his family to go into the Ark. Now God chose Noah not just because he was a God-fearing man, but also because he and his family were without blemish, meaning that they hadn't had contact with these rogue angels. If you read any of the works of Enoch (which barely missed being part of the Bible), Enoch insisted that it was exactly 200 angels, that they were enticed and attracted by womens' long hair, and that they taught men the art of warfare, witchcraft, and vanity amongst women (by creating make -up and mirrors).

According to Genesis 6:1-4, the angels and women would breed and create a species called the Nephilim, who were giants (Goliath would be a descendant of one of these after the Flood). They were evil as well, and were likely to control the Earth if not for the Flood due to their size. God decided to wash away these creations and then put the angels in chains in Tartarus, as spoken of in Jude 6, and II Peter 2:4 (don't quote me on that) to await their judgement on the last day.

This sort of plan by Satan went on until Christ sacrificed himself on the cross thousands of years later, and even now he still tries.

First, he tried to destroy God's plan by corrupting Adam and Eve, then he tried to destroy the chance of a messiah by having the angels interbreed, then he would try later when Moses would almost be killed by the Egyptians as a baby (only to be placed in an 'ark'), with Abraham, etc. etc. It went on until Christ, and even now.

Sorry about running on so long. I don't know if you understood any of it, but I tend to let loose thoughts come together. It's from years of studying the Bible. It might not really have anything to do with your question, other to show how vile Satan actually is.

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Switch84
:p No, "Vader" isn't. Cyber-yapping with a person using the name "Jesus Christ" as his/her username and taking it literally is dumb at best.

You either have faith in the Holy Trinity or you don't. Simple as that, folks. And you don't have to believe at all.

Free will is real.

Listen, no offense, really - but the "believe it or not" business is really what I'm trying to avoid. This all started out fairly comical, true, but I think I've raised some excellent points here and I certainly don't think doing so has been "dumb". I'd like to consider myself intelligent and eloquent enough in my delivery to avoid being called "dumb" because I have certain questions in regards to the Christian dogma.

Being called "dumb" because I have serious questions about the dogma is, to me, blind faith Christianity at it's finest, and such name calling doesn't do a lot to endear me to the mass Christians.

On a rule, they ALL seem to react about the same way when I pose the unsolvable problem with the doctrine.

"You're not a Christian! You're just trying to make trouble!"
"Go away! You're not welcome here!"
"These aren't legitimate questions! If you REALLY wanted answers, you'd be more receptive to the TRUTH!"

That's just evading me. It's also bullshit. The basic precept of Christianity is to educate the unlearned, correct?

"Simple as that" is what the church has given me ALL MY LIFE, and it's just not that simple. Ignore it if you want, call it baseless if you want, accuse me of troublemaking and being a "bad person", I've heard it all before and from worse than you. Christ, I even had one pastor go so far as to call me "Demon Possessed" in the middle of a meeting!

I truly feel that Christians really aren't the best source to turn to when you have a question about Christian dogma anymore. Maybe they never were.

[Warham]

I was raised a Catholic, but I came to my senses at 22, and decided to start studying for myself. I decided what I had learned wasn't entiredly as the Bible teaches. I don't have all the answers but I try my best to give them.

I hope to help you out with some of your questions Bob, and I'd always insist to allow your faith to have reason behind it. No one should believe just to believe. I believe Christianity can be reason-based, and I'd invite reason into the discussion.

I had these free will questions myself years ago.

[DaveIsKing]

I don't think Vader is taking it seriously, but I do think he is taking what "Jesus" is saying seriously and wants to debate him on religious issues.

[Warham]

So he wants to debate FORD, is what you are saying?

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Warham
Humans would have sinned regardless of whether God had created Lucifer or not. Lucifer is a good example of somebody who had it all, beauty, brains, power and lost it all because of inherent pride, by placing himself above his creator. He was not humble.

I believe that sin is a part of God's plan. Without sin, nobody could love God in the way that he wants us to love Him.

Angels were created without imperfections yes. But that being said, it is still possible to sin, because of free will. God cannot sin because God was not created. He laid down the ground rules, in their best interests. They refused to follow these rules. That's when inequity began.

Some actually believe that Lucifer sinned after man was created, because he realized that in God's plan man would eventually be put on a higher pedestal than the angels. Lucifer could not believe that someone such as himself could be considered lower than these creatures God created, so he himself rebelled and then caused Adam and Eve to sin, hoping to destroy God's plan. But God saw this coming, and if you read Genesis 3:15, the Bible's first prophecy, he lays the smackdown on Satan, ensuring that a future messiah would crush him.

For your refence on the angels coming down during the days of Noah?

I believe this was actually a plan created by Satan to try to stop God from following through on His plan for a messiah as spoken of in Genesis 3:15. God insisted that the messiah would come from the seed of the woman (Eve). If Satan could somehow 'dirty up' the gene pool with having a horde of lusty fallen angels come down and interbreed with human women, then even the better. Only problem is, God had a plan for this too...the Flood. As this Godless behavior was going down, God chose a descendant of Seth (Adam's third son), Noah, and his family to go into the Ark. Now God chose Noah not just because he was a God-fearing man, but also because he and his family were without blemish, meaning that they hadn't had contact with these rogue angels. If you read any of the works of Enoch (which barely missed being part of the Bible), Enoch insisted that it was exactly 200 angels, that they were enticed and attracted by womens' long hair, and that they taught men the art of warfare, witchcraft, and vanity amongst women (by creating make -up and mirrors).

According to Genesis 6:1-4, the angels and women would breed and create a species called the Nephilim, who were giants (Goliath would be a descendant of one of these after the Flood). They were evil as well, and were likely to control the Earth if not for the Flood due to their size. God decided to wash away these creations and then put the angels in chains in Tartarus, as spoken of in Jude 6, and II Peter 2:4 (don't quote me on that) to await their judgement on the last day.

This sort of plan by Satan went on until Christ sacrificed himself on the cross thousands of years later, and even now he still tries.

First, he tried to destroy God's plan by corrupting Adam and Eve, then he tried to destroy the chance of a messiah by having the angels interbreed, then he would try later when Moses would almost be killed by the Egyptians as a baby (only to be placed in an 'ark'), with Abraham, etc. etc. It went on until Christ, and even now.

Sorry about running on so long. I don't know if you understood any of it, but I tend to let loose thoughts come together. If's from years of studying the Bible. It might not really have anything to do with your question, other to show how vile Satan actually is.

First of all, THANK YOU for making a concerted effort to actually address the issues I've raised.

Very informative, and I thank you for your intelligent and thought-based answer. Before I can really continue on with the topic, I think it would be in my best interests to do some outside reading so that I have a firmer grasp of what you're speaking of and can draw some of my own conclusions, perhaps even raise a few more questions if they arise.

I guess, at the end of it, what I come down to is, where would Satans pride have come from if Heaven was indeed a place of perfection? I don't see how pride, the original sin, could have existed at all in a place that's by all accounts sin-free, unless the POTENTIAL for sin to exist there would have already been firmly in place - this, to me, deletes the concept of Heaven as a place of "perfection", because in truth it wouldn't be.

Having Satan rebel AFTER the events which transpired in the Garden of Eden would do a lot to offset my argument...and if he was indeed outside of the influence of God for an amount of time long enough to allow the influence of pride to intrude (possibly as a result of his interactions with Adam and Eve...whereas he'd have been doing his job, attempting to bring mankind closer to God through trials and temptations? Possibly...), I can probably go a bit further in accepting that.

Perhaps the failure of Adam and Eve in the garden (and, by default, his failure in the garden) was enough to anger him enough to look at himself and question the whole thing? Admittedly, the whole concept makes a lot more sense if Satan rebelled AFTER the events that occured in the Garden of Eden.

I'd like to pick this up again at a later time, Warham, if you're not opposed :) Let me do some outside reading first, and we'll go back into it, if you're game.

Again, thank you for sharing some intelligent debate with me.

[DaveIsKing]

How can one be "outside" of God when God is everywhere?

I don't even believe in God, but those who do say he is OMNIPRESENT.

[Warham]

Your welcome. Any time!

Keep on reading! It only helps.

:D

[Warham]

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
How can one be "outside" of God when God is everywhere?

I would only answer that and say that a sinner who has not repented is outside of God. It is said that Hell IS Hell because it is without God's presence. There's no need for flames or red hot coals. To be in true hell is to be devoid of any of God's blessings. All humans, even though they sin, share in some of these blessings because of being in God's physical creation.

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
How can one be "outside" of God when God is everywhere?

I don't even believe in God, but those who do say he is OMNIPRESENT.

From a personal standpoint, I've heard it said that one can be outside of God's influence if one chooses to be. Granted, it's a bit of a paradox right there, and an excellent point. I keep thinking of the movie "Dogma" where Ben and Matt are standing around talking about the humans...how they, as angels, cannot for ONE MOMENT be without the pain of being separated from God, but humans have the ability to not even notice, and they can choose to believe that He doesn't exist.

Perhaps that would be akin to this situation?

If we're going to argue that God is omnipotent, then perhaps it's a big eye in the sky watching all that you do and you're not even aware of it - that's always the impression I've gotten from the church, anyway.

I certainly know that he hasn't popped up on any rocks in person as of late, saying "Hey Bob, I'm God - let's talk for a bit, shall we?".

Outside of God? Perhaps that's the only way free will could potentially exist?

[DaveIsKing]

How can ANYWHERE be outside of Omnipresence? That is an impossibility.

[Warham]

God is everywhere, but he can cut off the blessings of his presence.

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
How can ANYWHERE be outside of Omnipresence? That is an impossibility.

Exactly why the existance of a Hell (by definition, a place "Outside of God's sphere of influence and without His presence") escapes me.

Either omnipresence is TOTAL or it's not omnipresence. This is where the whole thing breaks down for me.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
God is everywhere, but he can cut off the blessings of his presence.

We just got some great proof of that!

strap yourselves in and cash out those 401Ks people!

[Warham]

Voting for Bush or Kerry is not going to end the US or the world, OD.

I was against Kerry, but if he had won, I wouldn't have my box of tissues out today.

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Warham
God is everywhere, but he can cut off the blessings of his presence.

Which equates to Hell, and to a lesser degree Earth, I take it.

OK - done for now, folks, gonna go do some reading of the stuff Warham brought up - keeping pen and paper handy, because I'd like to pick this up again...also with you, King :) Thanks for the chat, guys. Gotta bolt for now, things to do.