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Nickdfresh
11-16-2004, 08:44 AM
As a former soldier I can see why this happened. Dead and wounded insurgents are often booby trapped or use grenades to kill themselves and approaching enemies.


Military investigates shooting of wounded insurgent
Commanders fear tape will discourage surrendering
Tuesday, November 16, 2004 Posted: 3:07 AM EST (0807 GMT)

U.S. Marines arrive at the mosque in Falluja on Saturday.

FALLUJA, Iraq (CNN) -- The U.S. military is investigating whether a Marine shot dead an unarmed, wounded insurgent during the battle for Falluja in an incident captured on videotape by a pool reporter.

The man was shot in the head at close range Saturday by a Marine who found him among a group of wounded men. The wounded men were found in a mosque that Marines said had been the source of small-arms and rocket-propelled grenade fire the previous day.

The Marine in the videotape has been removed from his unit and taken to the headquarters of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, and the Navy's Criminal Investigative Service said it plans to question one of the other wounded Iraqis as part of the probe, according to the pool reporter embedded with the unit.

"Let me make it perfectly clear: We follow the law of armed conflict and we hold ourselves to high standard of accountability," Marine Lt. Gen. John F. Sattler said Tuesday. "The facts of this case will be thoroughly pursued to make an informed decision and to protect rights of all persons involved."

The investigation will determine whether the Marine violated any rules or should be charged with any crime. Lt. Col. Bob Miller, a staff judge advocate for the 1st Marine Division, said wounded insurgents who pose no threat generally "would not be considered hostile."

The Marine seen shooting the man was part of a squad from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marine Regiment, which had been part of intense house-to-house fighting in southern Falluja.

U.S. rules of engagement prohibit American troops from killing any prisoner who does not pose a threat, and commanders say they are worried the video might encourage more insurgents to fight to the death rather than surrender.

The military asked that networks obscure the names and recognizable faces of the Marines inside the mosque when they broadcast video of the incident. The request came from Marine judge advocate Col. John Weil to NBC News, which videotaped the killing, and was based on privacy concerns.

Friday, the Marines were fired upon by snipers and insurgents armed with rocket-propelled grenades from a mosque and an adjacent building. The Marines returned fire with tank shells and machine guns.

They eventually stormed the mosque, killing 10 insurgents and wounding five others, and showing off a cache of rifles and grenades for journalists.

The Marines told the pool reporter that the wounded men would be left behind for others to pick up and move to the rear for treatment. But Saturday, another squad of Marines found that the mosque had been reoccupied by insurgents and attacked it again, only to find the same wounded men inside.

Four of the men appeared to have been shot again in Saturday's fighting, and one of them appeared to be dead, according to the pool report. In the video, a Marine was seen noticing that one of the men appeared to be breathing.

A Marine approached one of the men in the mosque saying, "He's [expletive] faking he's dead. He's faking he's [expletive] dead."

The Marine raised his rifle and fired into the apparently wounded man's head, at which point a companion said, "Well, he's dead now."

When told by the pool reporter that the men were among those wounded in Friday's firefight, the Marine who fired the shot said, "I didn't know, sir. I didn't know."

The Marines said they are investigating why the wounded Iraqis were left behind for 24 hours and whether the man was killed illegally. Navy investigators said they believe they have located the fifth Iraqi -- the only one not wounded a second time -- who said he wanted to provide information about the killing.

Before the Marines entered the mosque Saturday, a lieutenant from one of two squads involved in the fighting was told that there were people inside.

"Did you shoot them?" he asked.

"Roger that, sir," one of the men replied.

"Were they armed?" the lieutenant asked. The other Marine shrugged.

The Marine who shot the Iraqi man had reportedly been returned to duty after suffering a minor facial wound Friday.

About a block away, a Marine was killed and five others wounded by a booby-trapped body they found in a house after a shootout with insurgents.

The human rights organization Amnesty International raised concerns about violations of the rules of war last week, after a British news program broadcast video of what it said was the killing of another wounded insurgent by U.S. troops.

Amnesty also noted reports that insurgents have used mosques as fighting positions, and in one incident appear to have used a white flag to lure Marines into an ambush.

"All violations of international humanitarian law and human rights law must be investigated and those responsible for unlawful attacks, including deliberate targeting of civilians, indiscriminate and disproportionate attacks, and the killing of injured persons must be brought to justice," the group said in a statement issued Thursday.

To see the video click on this link:

http://www.ogrish.com/a/us_marine_fatally_shoots_wounded_pow_in_fallujah_m osque-11-16-2004.html

WACF
11-16-2004, 10:36 AM
Stressful situation....

John Ashcroft
11-16-2004, 12:02 PM
Fallujah Marine in Trouble for Pulling a Kerry

The television press was awash Monday night with video of a U.S. Marine entering a Fallujah terrorist nest filled with dead snipers, who moments earlier were shooting at his unit.

Upon discovering that one of the snipers is still breathing, the Marine shouts a warning to his buddies, the screen goes dark and a gunshot his heard - suggesting the Marine finished off the wounded terrorist.

Iraq war critics are already salivating at the prospects of another Abu Ghraib-like military fiasco.
Not so fast, say the folks at FreeRepublic.com, who point out that John Kerry got a Silver Star with Combat V [for valor] for committing the same sort of "atrocity."

In fact, the Feb. 1969 incident was considered by Kerry supporters to be his finest hour.

Patrolling the Bay Hap River, Kerry and his crew discovered they were about to be ambushed by a Vietcong soldier who had just popped up at the shoreline with a loaded rocket launcher in his hands. With the VC about to fire, Kerry crewmate Thomas Bellodeau shot and wounded the attacker, saving the entire boat.

Only then did Kerry leap to the shore to chase the wounded enemy down - finishing him off behind a hootch.

When critics suggested that Kerry's actions that day were something less than heroic, they were hooted down by the press.

Certainly the as yet unnamed Marine in Fallujah deserves, if not the Silver Star, the same slack the press cut Kerry.

link: here (http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/11/16/92057.shtml)

Nickdfresh
11-16-2004, 12:05 PM
Everything leads back to Clinton/Gore/Kerry doesn't it. We'll have to nominate Der Securocrat the Ken Starr Monomania Award.

Sgt Schultz
11-16-2004, 12:05 PM
War is hell.

The "insurgents" (terrorists) had already siplayed a pattern of booby trapping dead and woudned bodies so as far as I'm concerned any terrorist assface still alive is a legitimate target - end of story.

ODShowtime
11-16-2004, 12:12 PM
If I was soldier in a war zone with my life on the line, shoot first, ask questions later. period.

WACF
11-16-2004, 12:15 PM
Not saying what he did was right but....a marine was just killed by a boobytrapped insurgent previously to this.

How would you react....

fanofdave
11-16-2004, 12:16 PM
he wanted to see allah so the soldier arranged
the meeting....

smoke 'em all.

Nickdfresh
11-16-2004, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by ODShowtime
If I was soldier in a war zone with my life on the line, shoot first, ask questions later. period.

I agree. These insurgents in Falluja were violating the laws of war by pretending to surrender, under white flags, then whipping out AK-47's and shooting at Marines as the popped up to take them prisoner.

Unfortunately the dumb fuck shot him on TV, and unlike the "Kerry" incident, there were no weapons present in the Mosque.

BigBadBrian
11-16-2004, 02:11 PM
Let's send him to the International Criminal Court for a fair trial.


:gulp:

John Ashcroft
11-16-2004, 03:45 PM
Careful Brian! Idiots like these actually take that shit seriously.

Don't want to fan the flames of idiocy...

Nickdfresh
11-16-2004, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Careful Brian! Idiots like these actually take that shit seriously.

Don't want to fan the flames of idiocy...

Why not, you pour gasoline and diesel fuel on it daily!

ELVIS
11-16-2004, 04:52 PM
No thoughts on this from FORD ??

Sarge's Little Helper
11-16-2004, 04:52 PM
No thoughts on this from FORD ??

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Nickdfresh
11-16-2004, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Sarge's Little Helper
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Fuck you Bot! I hate bots. Next thing you know Sarge's Little Handjob is going to try to get me to go to her webcam.

ELVIS
11-16-2004, 05:17 PM
What makes you think it's a her...

Nickdfresh
11-16-2004, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
What makes you think it's a her...

Chat room bots are ususally "her" but I don't know, maybe Sarge is gay. Whatever his thing is.

ELVIS
11-16-2004, 05:22 PM
I don't know anything about chat room bots...

Sarge is not gay...

Nickdfresh
11-16-2004, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
I don't know anything about chat room bots...

Sarge is not gay...

I'll take your word for it.

ELVIS
11-16-2004, 05:30 PM
Actually he's newly married to a very nice looking gal...;)

Nickdfresh
11-16-2004, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
Actually he's newly married to a very nice looking gal...;)

I was actually thinking Sarge was some sort of nebulous Roth Army concoction, I forgot about the real Sarge who now apparently has a hot wife---send him my congrats!

BITEYOASS
11-16-2004, 05:52 PM
Fuck, I would have just thrown a grenade in that mosque if I was shot in the face the day prior.

Kristy
11-16-2004, 05:54 PM
That was the most beautiful thing I ever saw.

Nickdfresh
11-16-2004, 06:52 PM
Beautiful?:rolleyes:

BigBadBrian
11-16-2004, 07:11 PM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Careful Brian! Idiots like these actually take that shit seriously.

Don't want to fan the flames of idiocy...


I just planted that little seed of a thought to see what kind of responses we'd get. Let's see.....

John Ashcroft
11-16-2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Why not, you pour gasoline and diesel fuel on it daily!

Heh heh heh... 5 points for a clever comeback.

I knew it was coming, but it still made me laugh. Good one!

Nickdfresh
11-16-2004, 07:55 PM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Heh heh heh... 5 points for a clever comeback.

I knew it was coming, but it still made me laugh. Good one!

Thank you sir:D I aim to please even the opposition.

JCOOK
11-17-2004, 02:38 AM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Everything leads back to Clinton/Gore/Kerry doesn't it. We'll have to nominate Der Securocrat the Ken Starr Monomania Award.

Hey Nick what would you have done?;)

Nickdfresh
11-17-2004, 05:36 AM
Originally posted by JCOOK
Hey Nick what would you have done?;)

I don't know what I would have done. Maybe the samething. Maybe I would have tried to keep my composure and self-discipline and checked for weapons rather than assuming these guys had reinfiltrated the Mosque, which had been cleared out the day before which is why these wounded insurgents were left behind. I don't know. I wasn't there in that situation. You?:rolleyes:

Nickdfresh
11-17-2004, 05:39 AM
November 17, 2004 E-mail story Print latimes.com

Shooting Spurs Iraqi Uproar, U.S. Inquiry
Marine may be charged in the Fallouja killing of an unarmed fighter. The footage airs on Arab TV, further tarnishing America's image.

By John Hendren and Elizabeth Shogren, Times Staff Writers

BAGHDAD — Television images of a Marine fatally shooting an unarmed, wounded insurgent in a Fallouja mosque were repeatedly broadcast on Arab television Tuesday, enraging Iraqis and prompting calls from human rights groups for a broad investigation into U.S. conduct during the war.

The footage shows the Marine screaming that the insurgent is faking death. He then raises his rifle and fires into the insurgent's head at point-blank range.

"Well, he's dead now," another Marine says.

For many Iraqis, the shooting evoked the same sentiments as the Abu Ghraib prison abuse photos, which showed U.S. troops torturing Iraqi prisoners, forcing them to simulate sexual acts and otherwise humiliating them.

Some Iraqis called the killing an example of U.S. war crimes that routinely go unreported.

"If they are capable of doing this in front of the camera, then imagine what they have done behind it," said Niran Mohammed, 53, who was visiting a Baghdad ice cream shop with her children Tuesday night.

"It goes to show that [Marines] are not any better than the so-called terrorists. Their true intentions are getting clearer by the day," she added.

The Marine suspected of shooting the unarmed militant has been removed from his unit pending an investigation, U.S. officials said. The military declined to identify him.

Military legal experts said mitigating circumstances might have been a factor in the incident.

A Marine spokesman said the Marine in the video had been shot in the face the previous day but had returned to the battle, and a friend of his had been killed by a booby-trapped corpse.

"Tapes and pictures can be misleading. They can depict events in a false light," said Eugene R. Fidell, president of the National Institute of Military Justice and a partner in a Washington law firm that specializes in defending military personnel.

Chuck Blanchard, a former Army general counsel, said the military would consider the dangerous nature of the combat in Fallouja.

But he added, "If they believe it was a violation of what every Marine is told about how to treat prisoners on the battlefield, they're going to be very harsh on this Marine."

The shooting was videotaped Saturday by an NBC television crew traveling with the Marines' 3rd Battalion, 1st Regiment, which was among the many battalions trying to recapture the rebel-held city.

NBC correspondent Kevin Sites reported that a different Marine unit had stormed the mosque Friday, killing 10 insurgents and wounding five. The unit treated the wounded men before moving on.

Some reports said that four of the five wounded men may have been shot again Saturday by members of the squad that he accompanied.

In an account on NBC's website, Sites said a Marine noticed that one of the wounded men was still breathing. On the videotape, the Marine could be heard using an expletive as he said: "He's … faking he's dead — he's faking he's … dead."

The Marine then fired the fatal shot.

Sites said that when he told the Marine that the man he shot was a wounded prisoner, the Marine responded: "I didn't know, sir. I didn't know."

The U.S. military promised a thorough investigation.

"We follow the Law of Armed Conflict and hold ourselves to a high standard of accountability," Lt. Gen. John F. Sattler, commander of the 1st Marine Expeditionary Force, said in a statement. "The facts of this case will be thoroughly pursued to make an informed decision and to protect the rights of all persons involved."

Human rights groups called on the military to expand its inquiry to cover more broadly how it has conducted the war in Iraq.

Amnesty International urged the military to investigate an earlier incident, reported recently by Britain's Independent Television News, in which an American serviceman appeared to have fired at a wounded insurgent who was off-screen, and then said, "He's gone."

"We're very concerned about what the footage apparently depicts," said Alistair Hodgett, an Amnesty spokesman. "The laws of war are very clear that wounded and unarmed fighters cannot be shot. If indeed this was a deliberate shooting of a fighter who posed no threat, it would qualify as a war crime."

Under the Geneva Convention and U.S. military law, a soldier who shoots an unarmed, wounded combatant can be found guilty of murder. But the soldier can argue that he had a "reasonable fear" that he was about to suffer death or grievous bodily harm, experts said.

But M. Cherif Bassiouni, professor of law at DePaul University in Chicago, said the video suggested an open-and-shut case.

"There is no indication that at the time this Marine saw that this injured person was armed or constituted a threat to the Marine or his unit, and as a result it is plain and simple murder under the Uniform Code of Military Justice," said Bassiouni, who headed the United Nations commission investigating war crimes in the former Yugoslavia.

One analyst expressed concern that the shooting would further tarnish the United States' image among Iraqis and other Arabs. News coverage of the shooting overshadowed the Marines' assertion Tuesday that they were in control of Fallouja and needed to deal with only small pockets of resistance.

"Especially after Abu Ghraib, we don't have a level of trust and credibility with many people inside the Arabic and Islamic world," said Charles V. Pena, a military analyst with the libertarian Cato Institute. "This certainly doesn't help us make our case with them."

Hodgett, the Amnesty spokesman, faulted the Bush administration for not strictly adhering to Geneva Convention guidelines in its pursuit of extremists after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

That attitude "filtered downward" through the ranks of the military and "sent a message that the United States was not going to be bound by the full letter and intent of these laws," Hodgett said.

Historically, battlefield commanders have faced the difficult task of motivating troops to kill their adversaries while ensuring the lawful treatment of prisoners.

Before the Marines launched the assault on Fallouja, U.S. military leaders and Iraqi government officials used fiery language. The town was "being held hostage by mugs, thugs, murderers and intimidators," Sattler, the Marine general, told troops at a base where several thousand were preparing for battle.

Interim Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi told his soldiers that "the people of Fallouja have been taken hostage, and you need to free them from [the insurgents'] grip."

"May they go to hell!" the soldiers shouted.

Allawi replied: "To hell they will go."

Hendren reported from Baghdad and Shogren from Washington. Staff writers Ashraf Khalil in Amman, Jordan, and Maggie Farley in New York and special correspondent Said Rifai in Baghdad contributed to this report.

JCOOK
11-17-2004, 05:49 AM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I don't know what I would have done. Maybe the samething. Maybe I would have tried to keep my composure and self-discipline and checked for weapons rather than assuming these guys had reinfiltrated the Mosque, which had been cleared out the day before which is why these wounded insurgents were left behind. I don't know. I wasn't there in that situation. You?:rolleyes:

Any thing that fucking moves dies I dont't know where you get your news but these"freedom fighters" have killed or wounded a lot of your brothers;) ;)

Nickdfresh
11-17-2004, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by JCOOK
Any thing that fucking moves dies I dont't know where you get your news but these"freedom fighters" have killed or wounded a lot of your brothers;) ;)

I've never thought of them as "freedom fighters" but they are enemy combatants which entitles them to varying protections under the Geneva Conventions, whether you like them or not. By your logic, we should kill all POW's taken in any war. Besides, how the hell will you get intelligence if you have no one left to interrogate?

JCOOK
11-17-2004, 06:31 AM
AAAAAAGHGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!

Sgt Schultz
11-17-2004, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I've never thought of them as "freedom fighters" but they are enemy combatants which entitles them to varying protections under the Geneva Conventions, whether you like them or not. By your logic, we should kill all POW's taken in any war. Besides, how the hell will you get intelligence if you have no one left to interrogate?

If BOTH sides adhere to the Geneva Convention, then fine. But if only one side is adhering to it then they are fighting at a disadvantage. Has al Queda agreed to follow the Geneva Convention.....? Nope. So it is perfectly fine for Marines to kill wounded terrorists while still in combat. If they have already been deprocessed and are sitting in a rear area with their hands bound and a hood over their head - obviously it would be stupid to just shoot them. THis goes with your point about interrogation, it's good to take some prisoner just to get some intelligence.

Nickdfresh
11-17-2004, 11:13 AM
I thought the difference between freedom loving peoples like us and despotic fascist cults like al-Qaida is that we (generally) follow the law (i.e. the Constitution, Geneva Conventions, town ordinances, etc.) and fuckwads fascists like Bin Laden make it up as they go. We won WWII mostly following the GC, why change now?

I understand there are gray areas, and sometimes prisoners will be killed in the heat of battle, and we have the right to shoot "spies" (enemy combatants wearing civilian cloths) after they have been given a trial, but you can't just go around and do whatever you feel like.

Sgt Schultz
11-17-2004, 11:31 AM
The Geneva Convention works only when both sides agree to adhere to it. When only one side does, it gives a battlefield advantage to the side that is not adhering to it. The rules of the BATTLEFIELD vs the rules of the REAR AREA of a battlefiled (or a prison camp of some kind) are totally different. When a soldier is ON the battlefield, and engaged with the enemy, unless he is holding BOTH hands up and trying to surrender - he is a legitimate target - WOUNDED OR NOT - wounded soldiers can still kill you. And, even IF he's holding up his hands and trying to surrender (and this one was no) if HIS SIDE is not adhering to the Geneva Convention he can be shot at the discretion of the soldier.

Nickdfresh
11-17-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by Sgt Schultz
..he is a legitimate target - WOUNDED OR NOT - wounded soldiers can still kill you. And, even IF he's holding up his hands and trying to surrender (and this one was no) if HIS SIDE is not adhering to the Geneva Convention he can be shot at the discretion of the soldier.

I think I missed that part in The Law of Land Warfare Class. I think if he poses no threat to you, you're not supposed to kill him. Period. If the Marine says, "I thought these pricks were wounded by tank fire and the guy was playing dead 'cause I thought he had a grenade on him"--okay, soldiers and Marines get trigger happy in stressful situations.

But I don't not think it is alright to arbitrarily execute people if they clearly pose no threat. In the context of this case, it was clear to me there may have been a threat from the Marines' point of view. But the first thing the kid's Lieutenant asked him was, "did you see any weapons?" So it is a consideration!

If this shit gets out of hand, there will be no prisoners period!

Sgt Schultz
11-17-2004, 12:24 PM
I understand what you are saying, but I think in the case of being engaged in combat, against terrorists - who commonly fake surrenders, use women and children as shields, and wrap explosives around themselves under their clothing - the rules have to be different if one is to survive. If an al Queda punk holds his hands up, says "I surrender" and you see NO weapons it does not mean that he won't blow himself and 1/2 your squad up. I think we all have to really reexamine what battling terrorists entails. It's much different that battling Germans.

Nickdfresh
11-17-2004, 12:36 PM
To ABC News' credit, they ran a "package" on Fallouja showing just that. A group of insurgents came out with their hands up and white flags out, then the camera drops and you just hear firing as the dicks whipped out AK-47's and began firing at the Marines the camera crew was embedded with after they popped up to take them prisoner.

ODShowtime
11-17-2004, 01:04 PM
They really do make me sick. We need to avoid engaging with them in close combat whenever possible.

Big Train
11-17-2004, 01:12 PM
These people need to get a grip....these were both combatants and one of them made a choice. It the media guy who has no business being there, putting it all out in a way that CAN'T look good for them.

The muslim people are twisted. THey allow countless atrocities to happen unchecked, unquestioned by their own people, yet this sets off alarm bells. The international community and those calling for "sweeping investigations" can go fuck themselves. Let the military get about the business of what they do.

The US can't win in these situations, cause we have to fight with our hands behind our back to please some international body who considers us to much of a bully. Fuck them all....

ODShowtime
11-17-2004, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Big Train
The muslim people are twisted. THey allow countless atrocities to happen unchecked, unquestioned by their own people, yet this sets off alarm bells.

Fuck them all....


They love killing each other, it's traditional. They just don't like it when other people kill them.

Nickdfresh
11-17-2004, 05:23 PM
Probe of Marine's disappearance re-opened
New evidence found in Falluja
From Barbara Starr
CNN Washington Bureau
Wednesday, November 17, 2004 Posted: 2:02 PM EST (1902 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Military investigators have re-opened the case of U.S. Marine Corps Cpl. Wassef Hassoun after several personal items -- including his military ID and civilian passport -- were found in Falluja, the city where he disappeared in June.

Hassoun reappeared July 7 in Lebanon, where he was born and has relatives.

What happened to Hassoun during that time has been a mystery to military investigators who recently closed two separate investigations into the disappearance.

Because of the new evidence, the case of Hassoun's disappearance is unexpectedly open again. Investigators are assessing the evidence found in Falluja.

After the initial report that Hassoun was missing, military officials assumed he had walked away from camp. He was listed as a deserter.

His status was changed to captured after the release of a videotape that showed him blindfolded with a sword suspended over his head. A few days later, a posting to three Islamist Web sites claimed Hassoun had been beheaded.

Hassoun denied being a deserter and staging his own kidnapping.

A Marine Corps official said representatives of the Naval Criminal Investigative Services did not interview Hassoun until after he completed his 30-day home leave, following his repatriation back to the United States.

Hassoun may now be interviewed again, the official said.

Hassoun's civilian passport, military identification card and his military uniform were all found, sources said.

The uniform was described by those familiar with the case as being in "remarkably good shape."

Other items with Hassoun's name on them, but which the sources declined to describe, were also found. It appeared that some items of identification were altered, the sources said.

Hassoun's personal weapon disappeared from the camp just outside Falluja at the same time he did. It was never recovered.

Also, an amount of cash he had has not been found, sources said.

Two weeks ago, the NCIS presented its findings on two ongoing investigations into Hassoun's disappearance.

One investigation was a missing-person case. The other was a criminal probe into whether there was a breach of national security or classified information.

Marine Corps officials would not say what those findings were. The findings were presented to the top commander of the 4th Marine Expeditionary Brigade at Camp Lejeune, Hassoun's unit.

Wassef Hassoun shown in a video which appeared after his disappearance near Falluja.
Image:

Switch84
11-17-2004, 06:29 PM
:mad: That piece of shit faked his 'kidnapping'! How convenient that he ended up in Lebanon chilling with family members.

This is a prime example of why foreign born motherfuckers should NEVER be allowed to become President of our country! They shouldn't even be allowed to enlist in our armed forces. Their loyalties will always be in question.

I sure as fuck wouldn't want to be President of France. I wouldn't love them like I love the United States. That's why I shouldn't be eligible to hold that position.

Seshmeister
11-18-2004, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I thought the difference between freedom loving peoples like us and despotic fascist cults like al-Qaida is that we (generally) follow the law (i.e. the Constitution, Geneva Conventions, town ordinances, etc.) and fuckwads fascists like Bin Laden make it up as they go. We won WWII mostly following the GC, why change now?

Why are people talking about al Queda and Bin Laden in this thread?

What have they to do with the Iraqi resistance?

ELVIS
11-18-2004, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
Why are people talking about al Queda and Bin Laden in this thread?

What have they to do with the Iraqi resistance?



Abu Musab al-Zarqawi - Iraq’s new Bin-Laden claims responsibility for six-city offensive killing more than 100 and injuring more than 320
Sudhir Chadda, Special Correspondent

June 24, 2004 (http://www.indiadaily.com/editorial/06-24d-04.asp)

The most feared in Iraq is happening! Saddam is replaced by an unknown-unseen-monster called Abu Musab al-Zarqawi who is leading an Al-Queda local cell to behead human beings without any human consideration and attacking civilians any time anywhere.

Insurgents set off car bombs and seized police stations Thursday in a six-city offensive aimed at creating chaos ahead of next week's handover of power to a new Iraqi government. U.S. and Iraqi forces took back control in heavy fighting that killed more than 100 people and wounded about 320.

Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's terror network claimed responsibility for the offensive. Most of the casualties were Iraqi civilians. Three American soldiers were killed and at least 12 were wounded.
The heaviest fighting raged northeast of the capital in Baqouba, where American tanks and aircraft drove back black-clad guerrillas who seized a government office complex and roamed the deserted streets brandishing rocket launchers and automatic weapons.
Two American soldiers died in the Baqouba fighting, the 1st Infantry Division said. U.S. aircraft dropped three 500-pound bombs on insurgent positions near the soccer stadium, Maj. Neal O'Brien said.
But the worst bloodshed came in Mosul, the country's northern metropolis often touted as a success story in restoring order in Iraq where four car bombs killed 62 people, including a U.S. soldier, and wounded more than 220, according to the U.S. military.
The ferocity of the assaults shocked the outgunned Iraqi police and their American military partners, and the extent of the fighting was a clear sign of the power of the insurgency. Coalition officials said the offensive could augur escalated attacks in Baghdad in coming days.
"We underestimated the nature of the insurgency that we might face during this period, and so the insurgency that we are looking at now ... has become a serious problem for us," Secretary of State Colin Powell told the British Broadcast Corp.
U.S. officials have been warning that al-Zarqawi's followers — who were responsible for the beheadings of American businessman Nicholas Berg and South Korean hostage Kim Sun-il — would likely step up attacks to try to disrupt the transfer of sovereignty to the interim Iraqi government.
On Tuesday, U.S. air strikes against alleged al-Zarqawi hideouts in Fallujah killed more than 20 of his fighters, American officials said.
Al-Zarqawi's followers claimed responsibility for Thursday's attacks in a statement posted on an Islamic Web site often used by his Tawhid and Jihad movement. The statement said the "occupation troops and apostates" — meaning Iraqi police — "were overwhelmed with shock and confusion."
American and Iraqi officials insisted the transfer of power would proceed as planned June 30. On Thursday, the coalition turned over the last 11 government ministries to Iraqi officials.
During the handover ceremony, interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi said the attacks were "only acts of disturbances conducted by cowards" meant "to foil the democratic process."
Besides Mosul and Baqouba, attacks occurred in Ramadi, Fallujah, Baghdad and Mahaweel. Hostile fire near Fallujah forced a U.S. Marine Cobra helicopter gunship to make an emergency landing, but the crew escaped injury, a senior coalition official said.
In Mosul, at least four car bombs rocked the police academy, two police stations and the al-Jumhuri hospital. U.S. troops recaptured the Sheik Fathi police station in a hail of gunfire, and Iraqi troops raided a nearby mosque used by the insurgents, the U.S. military said. Mosul's governor imposed an overnight curfew, and the city television station urged people to stay home for the "general good."
Only four days ago, the U.S. Army handed over security duties in the Baqouba suburb of Buhriz after hammering insurgents there in heavy fighting. U.S. military officers said then that they were confident the Iraqis could control the security situation.
But on Thursday, American M1A1 tanks — machine guns blazing — rolled down the deserted streets of Baqouba — once better known as the center of Iraq's commercial orange groves.
Harried doctors, some working in bloodstained white coats, struggled to cope with a stream of wounded brought to Baqouba's hospital in civilian cars and pickup trucks. Corridors in the emergency room were spattered with blood. The Health Ministry said 13 people were killed and 15 wounded.

The wounded screamed in agony, and many of their friends and relatives directed their anger at the Americans, whom they blamed for destroying the order imposed by Saddam Hussein.
"May God destroy America and all those who cooperate with it!" one man screamed in the corridor. Another carried the body of a young man shot in the back of the head. "Oh God! Abbas is dead!" he cried.
Outside, U.S. Army helicopter gunship swooped low over Baqouba, occasionally firing at suspected guerrilla hideouts in palm groves. Some motorists flew white flags from their car antennas. Iraqi police guarded several key government buildings — including the local coalition office — but they were not seen on the streets.
In Ramadi, an insurgent stronghold 60 miles west of Baghdad, black-clad, masked gunmen barraged a police station with rocket-propelled grenades, destroying the building.
"We were inside the station and suddenly there was a very heavy explosion," police 1st Lt. Ahmed Sami said. "We discovered later on that the station was attacked from all around."
The gunmen also attacked another police station and the governor's residence with rocket-propelled grenades. At least 20 people were killed in the city, according to the Health Ministry.
In the Doura area of Baghdad, someone dressed in an Iraqi police uniform carrying a suitcase or a briefcase blew himself up near a U.S.-Iraqi checkpoint, killing four Iraqi soldiers and wounding at least one American, U.S. soldiers said.
Insurgents attacked four Baghdad police stations with mortars, hand grenades and Kalashnikov rifles. Police successfully defended the stations with "minimal assistance from coalition forces," a U.S. statement said.
In Mahaweel, south of Baghdad, a bomb exploded outside the police station, killing one officer and wounding six.
U.S. Marines and insurgents traded gunfire on the outskirts of Fallujah, the rebellious Sunni city and al-Zarqawi stronghold which American forces handed over to a local Iraqi force following a three-week U.S. siege in April.
Late Thursday, Fallujah Mayor Mahmoud Ibrahim al-Juraisi announced a cease-fire and the Marines pulled back to their bases just outside the city. Motorists who drove through Fallujah earlier said insurgents and uniformed Iraqi police appeared to be cooperating, chatting amiably on the street corners.




:elvis:

Sarge's Little Helper
11-18-2004, 11:24 PM
I agree!

twonabomber
11-18-2004, 11:32 PM
i ain't reading all that so maybe this has already been said.

if anyone gets disciplined, it should be the guy who shot the insurgent in the first place, because he obviously isn't doing his job. the insurgent was only wounded, not dead. ;)

ELVIS
11-18-2004, 11:36 PM
I'm not following you...

twonabomber
11-19-2004, 12:34 AM
the first guy shoulda killed the insurgent!

ELVIS
11-19-2004, 12:41 AM
I hear ya!


:elvis:

Nickdfresh
11-19-2004, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by Switch84
:mad: That piece of shit faked his 'kidnapping'! How convenient that he ended up in Lebanon chilling with family members.

This is a prime example of why foreign born motherfuckers should NEVER be allowed to become President of our country! They shouldn't even be allowed to enlist in our armed forces. Their loyalties will always be in question.

I sure as fuck wouldn't want to be President of France. I wouldn't love them like I love the United States. That's why I shouldn't be eligible to hold that position.

Actually their not so sure now. His stuff turning up in Falluja COULD mean he was genuinely kidnapped and released.

Nickdfresh
11-19-2004, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
Why are people talking about al Queda and Bin Laden in this thread?

What have they to do with the Iraqi resistance?

I don't regard "foreign fighters" from Chechnya, Syria, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, and France as part of the legitimate resistance. Nor do I think that decapitating a bound hostage to be resistance activity anymore than you think the Provisional IRA setting off bombs in London as part of a legitamate resistance activity. Besides, are they really fighting for "freedom." Is that their goal?

ODShowtime
11-19-2004, 10:08 AM
I love how France is lumped in there now. I still haven't heard anything about that except for the article I posted.

Nickdfresh
11-19-2004, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by ODShowtime
I love how France is lumped in there now. I still haven't heard anything about that except for the article I posted.

To be fair, the men in question were as about as "French" as that Saudi Arabian guy captured in Afganistan who was born in the U.S. to Saudi parents and raised back in the Kingdom is an "American."

France has a huge problem with militant Muslim immigrants who came from Northern Africa, especially Algeria. Which is one of the main reasons that French wanted no part of "Gulf War Part Deux."

ODShowtime
11-19-2004, 10:19 AM
Yeah, you are right about that. It's still funny though.

BrownSound1
11-20-2004, 02:42 AM
I'm almost positive that given the situation I would have busted a cap off in that motherfucker's ass as well. I know you are not supposed to kill prisoners or wounded like that, but let's get real here folks. If I thought for a second that he had the slightest possibility of being booby trapped...well you shoot first and ask questions later. Nothing should be done to that Marine. I wonder how many times that happened in WWII or Korea or Vietnam...I'd bet it happened a lot.

Switch84
11-20-2004, 03:25 AM
Originally posted by Brownsound1
I'm almost positive that given the situation I would have busted a cap off in that motherfucker's ass as well. I know you are not supposed to kill prisoners or wounded like that, but let's get real here folks. If I thought for a second that he had the slightest possibility of being booby trapped...well you shoot first and ask questions later. Nothing should be done to that Marine. I wonder how many times that happened in WWII or Korea or Vietnam...I'd bet it happened a lot.


:( I'm with ya on that one, Brownsound! Some Marines were killed in a booby trapped injured dude attack the day before this shooting.

In Vietnam, women and children were used as booby traps for chrissakes!

It's all fine and good to follow the 'Rules of War' if everyone's playing the same game, so to speak. This isn't the case in Iraq. It wasn't the case in Vietnam or Korea, either (I'm still reading up on WW2 atrocities and chatting with WW2 vets when I go to the VA Hospital to volunteer.)

ELVIS
11-20-2004, 04:15 AM
That's exactly why I'm against arm chair quarterbacking this stuff...

ODShowtime
11-22-2004, 01:58 PM
War correspondent Kevin Sites, in his own words about his Falluja shooting video

Kevin Sites: 11/21/04

To Devil Dogs of the 3.1:

Since the shooting in the Mosque, I've been haunted that I have not been able to tell you directly what I saw or explain the process by which the world came to see it as well. As you know, I'm not some war zone tourist with a camera who doesn't understand that ugly things happen in combat. I've spent most of the last five years covering global conflict. But I have never in my career been a 'gotcha' reporter -- hoping for people to commit wrongdoings so I can catch them at it.

This week I've even been shocked to see myself painted as some kind of anti-war activist. Anyone who has seen my reporting on television or has read the dispatches on this website is fully aware of the lengths I've gone to play it straight down the middle -- not to become a tool of propaganda for the left or the right.

But I find myself a lightning rod for controversy in reporting what I saw occur in front of me, camera rolling.

It's time you to have the facts from me, in my own words, about what I saw -- without imposing on that Marine -- guilt or innocence or anything in between. I want you to read my account and make up your own minds about whether you think what I did was right or wrong. All the other armchair analysts don't mean a damn to me.

Here it goes.

It's Saturday morning and we're still at our strong point from the night before, a clearing between a set of buildings on the southern edge of the city. The advance has been swift, but pockets of resistance still exist. In fact, we're taking sniper fire from both the front and the rear.

Weapons Company uses its 81's (mortars) where they spot muzzle flashes. The tanks do some blasting of their own. By mid-morning, we're told we're moving north again. We'll be back clearing some of the area we passed yesterday. There are also reports that the mosque, where ten insurgents were killed and five wounded on Friday may have been re-occupied overnight.

I decide to leave you guys and pick up with one of the infantry squads as they move house-to-house back toward the mosque. (For their own privacy and protection I will not name or identify in any way, any of those I was traveling with during this incident.)

Many of the structures are empty of people -- but full of weapons. Outside one residence, a member of the squad lobs a frag grenade over the wall. Everyone piles in, including me.

While the Marines go into the house, I follow the flames caused by the grenade into the courtyard. When the smoke clears, I can see through my viewfinder that the fire is burning beside a large pile of anti-aircraft rounds.


I yell to the lieutenant that we need to move. Almost immediately after clearing out of the house, small explosions begin as the rounds cook off in the fire.

At that point, we hear the tanks firing their 240-machine guns into the mosque. There's radio chatter that insurgents inside could be shooting back. The tanks cease-fire and we file through a breach in the outer wall.

We hear gunshots from what seems to be coming from inside the mosque. A Marine from my squad yells, "Are there Marines in here?"

When we arrive at the front entrance, we see that another squad has already entered before us.

The lieutenant asks them, "Are there people inside?"

One of the Marines raises his hand signaling five.

"Did you shoot them," the lieutenant asks?

"Roger that, sir, " the same Marine responds.

"Were they armed?" The Marine just shrugs and we all move inside.

Immediately after going in, I see the same black plastic body bags spread around the mosque. The dead from the day before. But more surprising, I see the same five men that were wounded from Friday as well. It appears that one of them is now dead and three are bleeding to death from new gunshot wounds. The fifth is partially covered by a blanket and is in the same place and condition he was in on Friday, near a column. He has not been shot again. I look closely at both the dead and the wounded. There don't appear to be any weapons anywhere.

"These were the same wounded from yesterday," I say to the lieutenant. He takes a look around and goes outside the mosque with his radio operator to call in the situation to Battalion Forward HQ.

I see an old man in a red kaffiyeh lying against the back wall. Another is face down next to him, his hand on the old man's lap -- as if he were trying to take cover. I squat beside them, inches away and begin to videotape them. Then I notice that the blood coming from the old man's nose is bubbling. A sign he is still breathing. So is the man next to him.

While I continue to tape, a Marine walks up to the other two bodies about fifteen feet away, but also lying against the same back wall.

Then I hear him say this about one of the men:

"He's fucking faking he's dead -- he's faking he's fucking dead."

Through my viewfinder I can see him raise the muzzle of his rifle in the direction of the wounded Iraqi. There are no sudden movements, no reaching or lunging.

However, the Marine could legitimately believe the man poses some kind of danger. Maybe he's going to cover him while another Marine searches for weapons.

Instead, he pulls the trigger. There is a small splatter against the back wall and the man's leg slumps down.

"Well he's dead now," says another Marine in the background.

I am still rolling. I feel the deep pit of my stomach. The Marine then abruptly turns away and strides away, right past the fifth wounded insurgent lying next to a column. He is very much alive and peering from his blanket. He is moving, even trying to talk. But for some reason, it seems he did not pose the same apparent "danger" as the other man -- though he may have been more capable of hiding a weapon or explosive beneath his blanket.

But then two other marines in the room raise their weapons as the man tries to talk.

For a moment, I'm paralyzed still taping with the old man in the foreground. I get up after a beat and tell the Marines again, what I had told the lieutenant -- that this man -- all of these wounded men -- were the same ones from yesterday. That they had been disarmed treated and left here.

At that point the Marine who fired the shot became aware that I was in the room. He came up to me and said, "I didn't know sir-I didn't know." The anger that seemed present just moments before turned to fear and dread.

The wounded man then tries again to talk to me in Arabic.

He says, "Yesterday I was shot... please... yesterday I was shot over there -- and talked to all of you on camera -- I am one of the guys from this whole group. I gave you information. Do you speak Arabic? I want to give you information." (This man has since reportedly been located by the Naval Criminal Investigation Service which is handling the case.)

In the aftermath, the first question that came to mind was why had these wounded men been left in the mosque?

It was answered by staff judge advocate Lieutenant Colonel Bob Miller -- who interviewed the Marines involved following the incident. After being treated for their wounds on Friday by Navy Corpsman (I personally saw their bandages) the insurgents were going to be transported to the rear when time and circumstances allowed.

The area, however, was still hot. And there were American casualties to be moved first.

Also, the squad that entered the mosque on Saturday was different than the one that had led the attack on Friday.

It's reasonable to presume they may not have known that these insurgents had already been engaged and subdued a day earlier.
Yet when this new squad engaged the wounded insurgents on Saturday, perhaps really believing they had been fighting or somehow posed a threat -- those Marines inside knew from their training to check the insurgents for weapons and explosives after disabling them, instead of leaving them where they were and waiting outside the mosque for the squad I was following to arrive.

During the course of these events, there was plenty of mitigating circumstances like the ones just mentioned and which I reported in my story. The Marine who fired the shot had reportedly been shot in the face himself the day before.

I'm also well aware from many years as a war reporter that there have been times, especially in this conflict, when dead and wounded insurgents have been booby-trapped, even supposedly including an incident that happened just a block away from the mosque in which one Marine was killed and five others wounded. Again, a detail that was clearly stated in my television report.

No one, especially someone like me who has lived in a war zone with you, would deny that a solider or Marine could legitimately err on the side of caution under those circumstances. War is about killing your enemy before he kills you.

In the particular circumstance I was reporting, it bothered me that the Marine didn't seem to consider the other insurgents a threat -- the one very obviously moving under the blanket, or even the two next to me that were still breathing.

I can't know what was in the mind of that Marine. He is the only one who does.

But observing all of this as an experienced war reporter who always bore in mind the dark perils of this conflict, even knowing the possibilities of mitigating circumstances -- it appeared to me very plainly that something was not right. According to Lt. Col Bob Miller, the rules of engagement in Falluja required soldiers or Marines to determine hostile intent before using deadly force. I was not watching from a hundred feet away. I was in the same room. Aside from breathing, I did not observe any movement at all.

Making sure you know the basis for my choices after the incident is as important to me as knowing how the incident went down. I did not in any way feel like I had captured some kind of "prize" video. In fact, I was heartsick. Immediately after the mosque incident, I told the unit's commanding officer what had happened. I shared the video with him, and its impact rippled all the way up the chain of command. Marine commanders immediately pledged their cooperation.

We all knew it was a complicated story, and if not handled responsibly, could have the potential to further inflame the volatile region. I offered to hold the tape until they had time to look into incident and begin an investigation -- providing me with information that would fill in some of the blanks.

For those who don't practice journalism as a profession, it may be difficult to understand why we must report stories like this at all -- especially if they seem to be aberrations, and not representative of the behavior or character of an organization as a whole.

The answer is not an easy one.

In war, as in life, there are plenty of opportunities to see the full spectrum of good and evil that people are capable of. As journalists, it is our job is to report both -- though neither may be fully representative of those people on whom we're reporting. For example, acts of selfless heroism are likely to be as unique to a group as the darker deeds. But our coverage of these unique events, combined with the larger perspective - will allow the truth of that situation, in all of its complexities, to begin to emerge. That doesn't make the decision to report events like this one any easier. It has, for me, led to an agonizing struggle -- the proverbial long, dark night of the soul.

I knew NBC would be responsible with the footage. But there were complications. We were part of a video "pool" in Falluja, and that obligated us to share all of our footage with other networks. I had no idea how our other "pool" partners might use the footage. I considered not feeding the tape to the pool -- or even, for a moment, destroying it. But that thought created the same pit in my stomach that witnessing the shooting had. It felt wrong. Hiding this wouldn't make it go away. There were other people in that room. What happened in that mosque would eventually come out. I would be faced with the fact that I had betrayed truth as well as a life supposedly spent in pursuit of it.

When NBC aired the story 48-hours later, we did so in a way that attempted to highlight every possible mitigating issue for that Marine's actions. We wanted viewers to have a very clear understanding of the circumstances surrounding the fighting on that frontline. Many of our colleagues were just as responsible. Other foreign networks made different decisions, and because of that, I have become the conflicted conduit who has brought this to the world.

The Marines have built their proud reputation on fighting for freedoms like the one that allows me to do my job, a job that in some cases may appear to discredit them. But both the leaders and the grunts in the field like you understand that if you lower your standards, if you accept less, than less is what you'll become.

There are people in our own country that would weaken your institution and our nation –by telling you it's okay to betray our guiding principles by not making the tough decisions, by letting difficult circumstances turns us into victims or worse…villains.

I interviewed your Commanding Officer, Lieutenant Colonel Willy Buhl, before the battle for Falluja began. He said something very powerful at the time-something that now seems prophetic. It was this:

"We're the good guys. We are Americans. We are fighting a gentleman's war here -- because we don't behead people, we don't come down to the same level of the people we're combating. That's a very difficult thing for a young 18-year-old Marine who's been trained to locate, close with and destroy the enemy with fire and close combat. That's a very difficult thing for a 42-year-old lieutenant colonel with 23 years experience in the service who was trained to do the same thing once upon a time, and who now has a thousand-plus men to lead, guide, coach, mentor -- and ensure we remain the good guys and keep the moral high ground."

I listened carefully when he said those words. I believed them.

So here, ultimately, is how it all plays out: when the Iraqi man in the mosque posed a threat, he was your enemy; when he was subdued he was your responsibility; when he was killed in front of my eyes and my camera -- the story of his death became my responsibility.

The burdens of war, as you so well know, are unforgiving for all of us.

I pray for your soon and safe return.

Nickdfresh
11-22-2004, 07:58 PM
Excellent post ODShow! Compelling story on what is clearly not a black and white issue regardless of perspective!

John Ashcroft
11-22-2004, 08:41 PM
So who do you consider "legitimate resistance"?

And do you hope they win?

Seshmeister
11-22-2004, 09:05 PM
You can only win if you achieve your goals.

Our goals were

1) To destroy Iraqs WMDs

They didn't have any to destroy

2) To reduce the terrorist threat to the West

The war has galvanized opposition to the US and UK in the region converting many moderates to fundamentalism.

3) To improve the lot of the Iraqi people

10s of thousands of civilians killed and their infrastructure destroyed.
Anarchy or at best a foreign powers puppet running their country.

How can we win?

Cheers!

:gulp:

Nickdfresh
11-22-2004, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
So who do you consider "legitimate resistance"?

And do you hope they win?

Me? I don't consider them "freedom fighters" if that's what you mean. Because they are not fighting for freedom!

That's a good question, I wish I had a simple 7 quick answer, because there are serveral different groups with different motivations (these are not your fathers Viet Cong). The main group I would like to completely exterminate are the foriegn fighters and the Al-Zarqawi (al-Qaida wanna be) beheading crew. These people can only be dealt with at the barrel of a gun and have no real business there.

But, inevatibably, we are going to have to negotiate with certain indigious (I mean actual Iraqi) insurgants and come to some negotiated settlement because right now we are in a stalemate that I can't see ending unless the US sends in a significantly greater number of ground troops.

John Ashcroft
11-22-2004, 09:31 PM
The indigenous insurgents are former baath party loyalists who personally benefitted by the operation of Saddam's torture chambers. And they happen to be a destructive minority in the country.

Should we have negotiated with active SS troops post WWII?

But at least we agree that foreign insurgents must be dealt with at the barrel of a gun. We've got a start here.

Nickdfresh
11-22-2004, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
The indigenous insurgents are former baath party loyalists who personally benefitted by the operation of Saddam's torture chambers. And they happen to be a destructive minority in the country.

Should we have negotiated with active SS troops post WWII?

But at least we agree that foreign insurgents must be dealt with at the barrel of a gun. We've got a start here.

Some are Baathists.

And some are just pissed off because we failed to provide adequate security, power, and relief to their country. They may see us as just using them to take their oil and not really provide relief.

The minority Sunnis fear the same repression under a democracy will happen to them since they are the minority and will lose power.

We didn't negotiate with the SS per se, but we did use a lot of ex-Nazi's in the German post-war gov't.

And some Iraqi insurgents would even agree that the Foriegn fighters are useless, I even heard a report that a number were summarily executed by Iraqis for fleeing the battle in Falluja.

John Ashcroft
11-22-2004, 09:50 PM
I saw that too. A great sign if you ask me.

All I can say is Iraq will be better off in the long run as a democracy. That much is for sure.

Nickdfresh
11-22-2004, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
I saw that too. A great sign if you ask me.

All I can say is Iraq will be better off in the long run as a democracy. That much is for sure.

I agree, but it might not end up as we pictured it in the beginning. In fact I think it already hasn't.

Cathedral
11-23-2004, 02:21 AM
Democracy will not settle in overnight, regardless.
Keep in mind that they have never lived under law in a democratic society, and it will take years for it to calm down even if the war ended tomorrow.
The first thing each and every one of them has to learn, is the value of human life.
That, in and of itself, may be a tougher task to pull off than the war itself.

Until then, I would plug any insurgent i find hanging on the edge of death for two reasons:

1) To protect my platoon

2) To put the miserable scab out of his misery so he doesn't end up killing more Americans later.

As brutal as the incident in question appears to some, there is no telling how many lives could have been saved by that act.
I wouldn't say he deserves a medal for it if there were no weapons found in that building, but he isn't a criminal if his actions only equal those of the enemy.

It's not as if he went walking down the street shooting anything that moved, meaning women and children.
The man was the enemy, and the enemy cannot be trusted...case closed.

Seshmeister
11-23-2004, 06:55 AM
Spoken like a true christian...:)

Nickdfresh
11-23-2004, 07:16 AM
November 23, 2004

THE CONFLICT IN IRAQ
Marines Take Aim at a New Hot Spot


By Bruce Wallace, Times Staff Writer


JABELLA, Iraq — U.S. Marines accompanied by Iraqi security forces launched a new offensive early today aimed at regaining control of northern Babil province, a region just south of Baghdad beset by kidnappings, shootings and carjackings for more than a year.


Backed by helicopters and airplanes, the combined forces raided more than a dozen homes in this small market town and arrested 32 men who they believe have been involved in the long-running series of attacks on Iraqi national guardsmen, U.S. troops and civilians.

Over the next few days, officials said, more than 5,000 American and British troops, along with 1,200 Iraqis, were expected to take part in the offensive, dubbed Operation Plymouth Rock.

Terming it their first major post-Fallouja campaign to regain control of an insurgent-riddled area outside Baghdad, officials said they would continue a series of preplanned raids in towns and farming areas largely within a so-called "death triangle" of cities bordered by Latifiya, Mahmoudiya and Yousifiya. U.S. troops have also engaged in a series of counterattacks to quell resistance in Mosul, Baghdad and other towns in the wake of their offensive to regain control of the rebel stronghold of Fallouja.

"We are going to push the fight back out to the enemy while he's reeling," said Capt. Tad Douglas, 28, who led an elite reconnaissance platoon of the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit in the raids. "We've seen fighters from Fallouja filtering down here, and we're going to take the offensive while they're still licking their wounds."

The operation began in the predawn darkness less than a day after Iraqi security forces recovered 12 bodies in Latifiya, about 20 miles south of Baghdad, where kidnappings of highway travelers have been commonplace for months. Five of the bodies had been beheaded, and one was identified as that of an Iraqi national guardsman kidnapped from a nearby town several weeks ago.

Earlier this month, U.S. Marines found the bodies of about 20 Iraqi national guard recruits, some in civilian clothes, who had been killed execution-style in a mosque and elsewhere west of Latifiya.

The largely Sunni Muslim towns and small cities in this rural region just a short drive south of Baghdad are home to an estimated 1 million people and were a stronghold of deposed President Saddam Hussein's Baath Party.

The region is also home to many of Hussein's Fedayeen fighters and elite Republican Guards, who were among the greatest losers in last year's U.S.-led invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq as Hussein's armed forces were defeated and then disbanded.

American officers believe Sunni rebels are also responsible for blowing up bridges and planting the roadside bombs that make north Babil a terrifying gantlet for anyone traveling between Baghdad and the Shiite Muslim cities to the south.

With operations in nearby Fallouja winding down, the Marines say they are now turning their attention to the problems south of Baghdad, where thousands of U.S. troops are being assisted by about 850 British soldiers who were recently dispatched from bases in southern Iraq to relieve U.S. forces preparing for Fallouja.

To succeed, the Marines, assisted by the British and Iraqi troops, will have to root out the insurgents among residents of the farming towns and villages that run along the Euphrates. Fed by the river and a network of canals, the land is a lush plain of farms and market towns, a landscape of high grass and deep ditches that provide cover for rebels setting up fake checkpoints or firing on convoys along the highway.

The area was also a center of Hussein's military industries and munitions plants and remains awash in explosives and skilled workers who know how to use them. Among the facilities in the region is the Al Qaqaa ammunition site, where about 380 tons of high-grade explosives were believed to have been looted after the fall of Baghdad in April 2003.

Marines have uncovered several weapons caches in northern Babil province buried in dirt fields. The arms include mortars, rocket-propelled grenades and 500-pound bombs. At this point, though, they believe they have made only a dent in the supply.

In undertaking the operation, Marine Col. Ron Johnson said the aim was to squeeze the insurgents by taking territory and freedom of movement from them. Johnson's 2,200 Marines at Forward Operating Base Kalsu have already increased their presence in the province through more aggressive patrolling of towns and back roads.

The heightened tempo is aimed at the insurgents or criminals who had grown accustomed to moving through the province with near-impunity. Marines have detained more than 600 Iraqis in raids or at roadblocks since early August.

"There are multiple factions competing for power with a multitude of interests — some of them are no more than thugs — and they want to take advantage of the chaos," said Johnson, who declared that "there will be no place my men won't go" in north Babil.

The insurgents have fired back on patrols and on low-flying helicopters backing up the ground forces. They have also planted more homemade bombs along the province's roads. The number of such explosive devices that have gone off or been defused has more than doubled since early fall.

It is not known how many of the fighters who fled Fallouja have retreated to north Babil. The Americans say they have received sketchy reports of sightings of Abu Musab Zarqawi, the Jordanian-born militant who has taken credit for the beheadings of hostages and numerous attacks on U.S. and Iraqi forces.

As much of a prize as Zarqawi would be to the Marines, the American and British troops here say the fight in north Babil goes deeper, touching the heartland of the well-armed and desperate former fighters for Hussein's regime.

"You can't have a functioning country where Shiites cannot drive from their cities to the capital," said a senior military officer at Kalsu. "The insurgents know it. And everyone in Baghdad knows it."

Wallace is traveling with the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit. Times staff writer Ashraf Khalil in Baghdad contributed to this report.

latimes.com/news/nationworld/iraq/la-fg-assault23nov23,0,4403931.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Nickdfresh
11-23-2004, 07:20 AM
November 23, 2004 E-mail story Print

THE CONFLICT IN IRAQ
This Time, Iraqis Fought a Good Fight in Fallouja
U.S. forces give proteges kudos for digging up intelligence, storming mosques and other tasks. But the baton won't be passed soon.


By Patrick J. McDonnell, Times Staff Writer


FALLOUJA, Iraq — Upon his triumphant entry into this former rebel bastion following a U.S.-led assault, the top American commander in the country singled out Iraqi troops for special tribute.

"Iraq needs leaders like you," Army Gen. George W. Casey declared last week to the U.S.-trained officers arrayed before him.

About 2,000 Iraqi soldiers, police and special forces fought alongside 10,000 U.S. Marines and soldiers in the battle for Fallouja. The Iraqis' role was comparatively modest in what was clearly a U.S. show, but top American commanders were upbeat about the results.

For one thing, there have been no mass desertions since the operation began Nov. 8, unlike what occurred during an aborted Marine assault on the city in the spring. Many members of Iraqi security forces walked away from the earlier fight, embarrassing officials with the U.S. occupation.

This time around, U.S. officials, mindful of what is often referred to as putting an "Iraqi face" on events here, accent the positive. They say the Iraqis were especially useful here in unearthing intelligence, identifying non-Iraqi insurgents, clearing homes of enemy fighters, searching for weapons caches and staffing humanitarian aid sites. At least one specially trained police unit, working with U.S. "mentors," was used to storm several mosques.

"The Iraqis have been a tremendous asset," said Maj. Gen. Richard F. Natonski, commander of the 1st Marine Division.

Privately, some commanders and experts on military issues said they were less confident that Iraqi troops were ready to take on a more independent role in providing security for the country.

"The big test is when the Iraqis have to do something like this by themselves — and not with Marines helping them out," said one U.S. officer who was involved in the Fallouja assault. "Let's see how they get from point A to point B then."

That the Iraqis' role was limited in the large-scale operation was not surprising. Iraq's army, once the largest in the Middle East, remains a work in progress that lacks manpower, weapons, training, air power and armored units.

Although the three Iraqi battalions fighting here had been battle tested in clashes with insurgents, only one attacked independently, commanders say. The others were directly attached to U.S. units. Even the quasi-independent battalion was guided by U.S. advisors and was part of a larger command reporting to a Marine colonel.

"They can't do what we did here by themselves," acknowledged Army Maj. Hunter Floyd, a senior advisor to one of the Iraqi battalions deployed here. "They don't have tanks…. They don't have the armor that we have. But they're getting there. The master plan has all that stuff."

Paul Beaver, a British defense analyst based in London, said the Iraqi national guard was hampered by insufficient training and a lack of experience working from an American military perspective.

"They've done as well as can be expected under the circumstances," he said. "The problem was the Americans didn't organize them soon enough."

An Iraqi force that is able to undertake such operations on its own may be a long time in coming, said Andrew Krepinevich, an expert in counterinsurgency warfare and executive director of the Center for Strategic Budgetary Assessments in Washington.

"The tension is, can the indigenous Iraqi forces take on a large enough role in the defense of their own country before the U.S. Army begins to run into severe problems with respect to recruiting and retaining soldiers? And right now, it looks as though it's going to be quite some time. You've got to be concerned. At some point the Army, which has performed remarkably well, will begin to show the stresses and the strains."

Casualty figures underscore the comparative role of the two forces in Fallouja. U.S. troops suffered almost 10 times as many casualties — 51 killed in action and 425 wounded — as their Iraqi counterparts, authorities said late last week. The fighting left eight Iraqi soldiers dead and 43 wounded.

U.S. forces also appeared to have been taken out of the fight by their injuries at a higher rate. More than 90% of the Iraqi wounded returned to the battlefield compared with fewer than one-third of injured U.S. troops.

Among U.S. forces, there was much eye-rolling about some of the Iraqis' undisciplined habits: eschewing helmets at times, not handling weapons by the book, firing rocket-propelled grenades when smaller arms would suffice. Several of the Iraqis' injuries were said to have resulted from negligent discharges of their own weapons.

"They don't seem to know what a safety [setting] is on their AKs," one Marine said, referring to assault rifles.

Remarked another Marine who fought alongside the Iraqis, "I was afraid the whole time they were going to shoot me."

But U.S. forces here also paid homage to their comrades in arms. In fact, Marines put up a billboard at the entrance to the city extolling a former Iraqi national guard commander who is believed to have been killed by insurgents this summer.

Iraqi troops interviewed here displayed great pride about their part in the operation, eagerly recounting their exploits.

Staff Sgt. Adel Ahmed led a reporter to a spot outside a yellow schoolhouse in central Fallouja. There, he said, his troops had finished off a fighter carrying Syrian identification. The Iraqis pointed to a protruding mound of earth behind the school where, they said, the Syrian was buried.

"We are fighting to save our Iraq from foreigners and terrorists," Ahmed declared.

Most Iraqi troops here appear to be either Shiite Muslims or Kurds. Both groups are rivals of the minority Sunni Muslim Arabs who have long dominated Iraq and constitute the majority of Fallouja's population.

At one base, Kurdish could be heard spoken along with Arabic.

Many Iraqi fighters here are former peshmerga, as Kurdish guerrillas were known. For many Kurds and Shiites, long repressed by the regime of Saddam Hussein, there is a special satisfaction in fighting to crush a Sunni Arab stronghold where many people still support the ousted president.

"We were all more motivated when we saw the evidence showing these fighters were killing innocent people," said Lt. Col. Ali Naeem, a Shiite from the southern city of Basra who headed the 1st Battalion of the 1st Brigade of the Iraqi Intervention Force, the semi-independent unit that invaded Fallouja with U.S. advisors. "The insurgents kicked people out of their homes and took over their houses."

But the preponderance of Shiites and Kurds also points to one of the Iraqi army's potential weaknesses: The failure to attract sufficient recruits from Sunni cities, where hostility toward America runs high and many young men choose to enlist in guerrilla forces instead.

Naeem's battalion attacked the northwest corner of the city, in what is known as the Old Jolan neighborhood. It is a stronghold of two pillars of the insurgency: religious militants and nationalist stalwarts of the old regime. Searches yielded a potential intelligence bonanza, commanders say.

The Iraqis are said to have uncovered extensive information about insurgent networks, notably that of Abu Musab Zarqawi, the notorious Jordanian-born militant said to have operated out of Fallouja.

"They see a lot of things we just pass over," said Marine Capt. Ken Gardner, an Arabic speaker working with Iraqi troops here. "They'll look underneath some books or some innocent-looking papers and find lists of fighters for mooj [mujahedin] cells or foreign fighter cells. They found a lot of stuff."

From his military-issue sport utility vehicle, the intelligence officer for the Iraqi battalion working in Old Jolan pulled out a pair of bloody surgical gloves, stored in a plastic bag that once held U.S. military rations. He then brandished a handcrafted, 2-foot knife, curved like a scimitar and bearing ochre stains on its dark blade.

"This is dried blood," said the officer, who declined to give his name, citing fear of assassination. "They used it for beheadings. We found it at a terrorist's home."

The officer then produced two more long knives found in homes in the neighborhood along with a flag for Zarqawi's organization and other incriminating material. All would be turned over to U.S. intelligence authorities, he said.

The Iraqi forces in Old Jolan are also responsible for preventing guerrillas who escaped during the fighting from returning from neighboring farmland.

In the view of the American troops, the quicker the Iraqi forces get up to speed for such tasks, the better. The emergence of effective Iraqi forces, they say, is the only way to guarantee that large numbers of U.S. troops do not have to keep coming back to Fallouja.

"Hopefully, we can make the Iraqis understand it's their city to fight for," said Marine Staff Sgt. Ben Sturges, a reservist and power-plant engineer from San Francisco. "That way we won't have to spend the next 20 years here."

Times staff writers Emma Schwartz in Washington and Janet Stobart in London contributed to this report

Nickdfresh
11-23-2004, 07:24 AM
Originally posted by Cathedral

Until then, I would plug any insurgent i find hanging on the edge of death for two reasons:

1) To protect my platoon

2) To put the miserable scab out of his misery so he doesn't end up killing more Americans later.

As brutal as the incident in question appears to some, there is no telling how many lives could have been saved by that act.
I wouldn't say he deserves a medal for it if there were no weapons found in that building, but he isn't a criminal if his actions only equal those of the enemy.


You may end up causing Americans to die if the insurgents refused to surrender as a result.

"Equel to that of the enemy?":confused:

ELVIS
11-23-2004, 07:40 AM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
Spoken like a true christian...:)

C'mon man...

What's your idea of a good christian response ??

Cat said:

1) To protect my platoon

2) To put the miserable scab out of his misery so he doesn't end up killing more Americans later.


Should it have been:

1) Explain to the insurgent how Jesus is real and how he died for his sins

2) Let him kill me and as many other americans as he can


C'mon Sesh...


:elvis:

ODShowtime
11-23-2004, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Excellent post ODShow! Compelling story on what is clearly not a black and white issue regardless of perspective!

I guess I can understand that his journalistic integrity would be questioned if he decided not to report the story. I don't think that equates to the outrage in the muslim world from the story. But then again, we've already invaded an sovereign country based mostly on lies and deception and been implicated in a deeply offensive sexual torture scandal, so I don't think our PR campaign was really winning over any hearts or minds.

I found it intriging that the reporter had previously saved the lives of the soldiers around him my alerting them to the fire near the AA ammo. He sounded like a class act, other than questionable judgement on releasing the tape.

The bottom line is that war is fucked up. We don't need to get up to the minute updates from every platoon. Millions of people around the world just aren't intelligent or informed enough to be able to understand the mitigating circumstances surrounded such an event. I'm just glad this offensive didn't bog down. I guess it never does with the Marines.

Seshmeister
11-23-2004, 08:37 AM
Originally posted by ELVIS
C'mon man...

What's your idea of a good christian response ??

Cat said:

1) To protect my platoon

2) To put the miserable scab out of his misery so he doesn't end up killing more Americans later.


Should it have been:

1) Explain to the insurgent how Jesus is real and how he died for his sins

2) Let him kill me and as many other americans as he can


C'mon Sesh...


:elvis:

That's definitely closer.

Show me where Jesus approves of murder even in a percieved self defense?

Just because Christainity has been used as tool for murder and destruction for hundreds of years doesn't make it right.

Nickdfresh
01-13-2008, 12:10 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Me? I don't consider them "freedom fighters" if that's what you mean. Because they are not fighting for freedom!

That's a good question, I wish I had a simple 7 quick answer, because there are serveral different groups with different motivations (these are not your fathers Viet Cong). The main group I would like to completely exterminate are the foriegn fighters and the Al-Zarqawi (al-Qaida wanna be) beheading crew. These people can only be dealt with at the barrel of a gun and have no real business there.

But, inevatibably, we are going to have to negotiate with certain indigious (I mean actual Iraqi) insurgants and come to some negotiated settlement because right now we are in a stalemate that I can't see ending unless the US sends in a significantly greater number of ground troops.

Hmmmm....

hideyoursheep
01-19-2008, 08:43 PM
Man, this is old...

That shit Asscroft posted about "pulling a Kerry" pisses me off .

What? No mention of GWB ever "pulling a Houdini"?