Vote Recount to Settle Doubts?

[DLR'sCock]

http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65736,00.html


Vote Recount to Settle Doubts?
By Kim Zetter
Wired News

Wednesday 17 November 2004

A vote recount in New Hampshire on Thursday could shed light on anomalies with election results in that state, voting activists say. And if the recount finds problems with voting machines there, it could open the way for recounts in other states, such as Florida.

Presidential candidate Ralph Nader requested the recount, which will include only a small percentage of voting districts in the state where anomalies appeared in the election results. New Hampshire uses a combination of traditional paper ballots and optical-scan machines -- where voters mark a paper ballot with a pen before officials scan it through an electronic infrared reader. The anomalies occurred mostly in districts that used optical-scan machines.

Nader spokesman Kevin Zeese said the campaign was closing up shop and paying off its debts when it received several requests to look at data from a number of New Hampshire voting districts. "There was enough to it that made it worthwhile to at least check it out," he said.

The data came from Ida Briggs, a Michigan voter with 20 years of experience as a software programmer, including eight years as a statistical analyst of databases for the telecommunications industry. Briggs compared this year's New Hampshire votes with those cast in 2000.

Most people would have expected John Kerry's performance at the polls this year to be similar to Al Gore's in 2000. And in 229 out of 300 voting districts, or wards as they're called in New Hampshire, that was the case. Kerry either matched the percentage of votes that Gore received in 2000 in those wards or did better than Gore. But in 71 wards, Briggs found, Bush did better in 2004 than he did in 2000.

When Briggs broke the 71 wards down by voting equipment -- separating wards into those that used traditional paper ballots and those that used optical-scan machines -- she discovered that 73 percent of the wards used optical-scan equipment, while only 27 percent used traditional paper ballots. Even more interesting was the breakdown per brand of voting equipment. New Hampshire wards used optical-scan equipment made by Diebold Election Systems and Election Systems & Software. About 62 percent of the wards with anomalous results used Diebold machines.

"Which is pretty high," Briggs said. "Especially in comparison to hand-counted paper ballots, which accounted for only 27 percent of the out-of-trend wards."

In one ward in the city of Manchester, the change was remarkable. In 2000, Gore beat Bush 49 percent to 48 percent. But this year Bush carried the ward with 53 percent of votes. In another Manchester ward where Gore won 52 percent to Bush's 44 percent in 2000, Bush won with 50 percent to Kerry's 49 percent this year.

"The numbers could be real," Briggs said. "But to be this dramatically outside of the trend raises some red flags."

Some people have explained away the numbers as a result of affluent Massachusetts voters moving to New Hampshire to take advantage of its tax system. These transplants would be more likely to vote for Bush. But Briggs thinks this is too anecdotal and shouldn't be used to dismiss the numbers.

"It's also anecdotal that urban voters tend to vote more liberal than rural voters, but in New Hampshire we see that trend reversed," she said.

Briggs said the wards with surprising numbers account for about 235,000 votes, at least 200,000 of which are in wards that used Diebold machines. This is significant because earlier this year, activists found security flaws in the Diebold counting software that could allow someone with access to the system to alter votes.

But Briggs stressed that there was nothing to indicate fraud.

"My take is this could simply be a glitch. And if someone made a mistake, then it's an easy find," she said. "Thank God New Hampshire has a paper trail so we can just sit down and count the paper ballots."

Unlike states and counties using paperless touch-screen voting machines, New Hampshire passed a law in 1994 requiring all voting machines to produce a paper trail, so the paper can easily be used to verify the vote results.

But this isn't why Briggs chose to examine New Hampshire's machines. She chose the state because Kerry won there, with 50 percent of the votes to Bush's 49 percent, and people would be less likely to view her examination as a partisan tactic to overturn Bush's victory.

The recount will consist only of 11 wards, taken from a list of wards that Briggs supplied to the Nader campaign. Because state officials are already busy conducting 15 recounts in close local races, they will only be able to count five of the wards Thursday and will do the remaining six wards at a date to be determined.

Nader paid a $2,000 deposit to secure the recount and will have to pay an additional amount once the state determines the full cost, though it isn't expected to cost much more. If the 11 wards indicate problems with the machines, Nader officials will likely ask to widen the recount to include 44 wards.

Nader spokesman Zeese said New Hampshire officials have been very cooperative. He said his group also evaluated information about anomalies in Florida that were uncovered by a mathematician, but found no reason yet to call for a recount there.

"We're open-minded about looking at any evidence that raises suspicions that has legitimacy," he said. "But we're not going to just jump in and do a recount without reason." He said they looked at data showing that in Florida counties using optical-scan machines numerous Democrats had voted for Bush. But he concluded, as several academics did, that "it's not unusual," since many Democrats in Florida had been voting Republican for years.

But if the New Hampshire recount uncovers problems with the machines, the Nader campaign will consider seeking a recount in Florida, since the state uses many of the same Diebold and ES&S optical-scan machines as those in New Hampshire. The process in Florida, however, would be more complicated and expensive.

"New Hampshire makes it very easy to ask for a recount. But Florida requires you to file a lawsuit. You have to get a court order," Zeese said. "And we need to have a compelling reason to request a recount."

Briggs said that interesting data has also shown up in Ohio and New Mexico, though she has not yet been able to examine all of the figures she needs from those states. She said states vary in the level of data they make public and that finding numbers for individual voting districts rather than for whole counties has so far been difficult to do in Ohio and New Mexico. But at least two candidates are already seeking a recount in Ohio.

Anthony Stevens, New Hampshire's assistant secretary of state, said he thinks the recount in his state is a good thing.

"It will put people's minds at ease," Stevens said. "It will assure (voters) that things are being done right. It also may discourage any future tampering of the machines (if people see that the machines will be examined). So it's a good check and balance of the process."

Both Zeese and Briggs said whatever the recount results, the outcome would be positive.

"It will either show that there wasn't a problem with the machines or we'll find a problem and raise issues that need to be raised," Zeese said.

"Whenever there is even a perception that there is a problem, then there is a problem," Briggs said. "If people are raising questions then by God you sit down and you prove it so nobody has to take anyone's word for it. Why have four years of bitterness and doubt?"

-------

[DLR'sCock]

Interesting how again the anomalies that occured, occured in districts using optical scanning machines, just the same way as in Florida where the exit polling data and the results in the districts using optical scanning machines were way way off....


A pattern??

A trend??

we will see....

[Guitar Shark]

Kerry lost. Get over it people, Jesus.

[FORD]

One thing's for sure...

Nader, Cobb, and Badnarik seem to care far more about Democracy and the will of the people than either the Kerry camp or the BCE.

None of those three have a snowball's chance in Hell of winning. So why are they leading the effort?

Even if Junior succeeds in stealing this election, it's starting to look like the minor parties might emerge the true winners.

[Carmine]

Ford, I like the post-election map! And yes, I still live in America!!!!

[FORD]

Yeah, but you guys need to get rid of Pa-tacky and Mayor "turned Republican when he got rich"

[alsip]

The election returns illustrate what real trouble the Democratic party is presently in--indeed, we run the risk of effectively becoming a de facto one-party system over the next 20 years if the Democrats do not bring themselves to the center. This is very dangerous for the country. Reflect on the fact that an unpopular president with a two-digit IQ, a known hothead who is proud of the fact that he never seeks outside advice, just won re-election by 3.5 million votes. This is largely because the Democrats fielded an incredibly weak ticket, and were once again radicalized and perceived of a party of the extreme left.
(Interestingly, I would submit that someone like Joe Lieberman, a cautious and thoughtful moderate, would likely have won this election--he would have carried the following states: California, New York, Massachusetts, Ohio, Florida, Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, Connecticut and Rhode Island.)
But Kerry--who was really perceived of as having few principles and simply being yet another pandering politician--chose to play to the Dean-led left and radicalize the party. And yet even as weak a candidate as Kerry probably could have won had he moderated his viewpoint--e,g., by acknowledged that low taxes benefit productivity and wealth-creation, which benefits everyone--and played to the center.
This is all dangerous because the more the Democratic party is marginalized, the more nutty things the Republicans have license to do--such as (1) configuring the Supreme Court, which will have a 30-year impact, (2) retarding scientific development, a la stem cell research, (3) pushing a gay marriage ban, (4) overturning Roe v. Wade, etc., and (5) accelerating the trend to making America a Christian theocracy; whereas a centrist and robust Democratic party would at least keep these baser Republican tendencies in check.
Unless the Democrats "get" this, the country will continue to drift to a far right posture, including, most importantly, the further weaving of (the Christian) religion into our cultural fabric (e.g., evidence the composition of the two new loonies in the Senate) which is both terrible for all of us and contrary to the principles upon which this country was founded.

[Carmine]

Originally posted by FORD
Yeah, but you guys need to get rid of Pa-tacky and Mayor "turned Republican when he got rich"

Its being handled....Mayor "turned republican when he got rich" made alot of enemies here! Pa-tacky will live or die on the min. wage increase, and so far he is dying!

[Switch84]

Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
Ford, I like the post-election map! And yes, I still live in America!!!!


:D Big Ragoo Baby, we ALL still live in America! Ford's map is just as funny as the "Jesusland" map.

LOL! Michigan is my homestate and I recently moved to Georgia (my Mom's homestate.) So, am I an 'American' or a 'Dummystanian'?

This is FUN! I needed that laugh, y'all!

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
Ford, I like the post-election map! And yes, I still live in America!!!!

I think the map sucks, but it shows what kind of person FORD really is...

You can feel the love and compassion pouring out from FORD's heart every time you look at it...

[Carmine]

Originally posted by Switch84
:D Big Ragoo Baby, we ALL still live in America!


I know its funny, but...the second term has not even officially begun and....

already....boy it sucks to be a Major Airline employee!( they have asked Federal Judges to TERMINATE existing Union contracts)

This guy will undo the last 100 years worth of Labor legislation!

and that shit hits me hard!

[Switch84]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I think the map sucks, but it shows what kind of person FORD really is...

You can feel the love and compassion pouring out from FORD's heart every time you look at it...


:( No kidding, Elvis Baby! He'd probably advocate nuking the red states...........

[FORD]

Originally posted by alsip
The election returns illustrate what real trouble the Democratic party is presently in--indeed, we run the risk of effectively becoming a de facto one-party system over the next 20 years if the Democrats do not bring themselves to the center. This is very dangerous for the country. Reflect on the fact that an unpopular president with a two-digit IQ, a known hothead who is proud of the fact that he never seeks outside advice, just won re-election by 3.5 million votes. This is largely because the Democrats fielded an incredibly weak ticket, and were once again radicalized and perceived of a party of the extreme left.
(Interestingly, I would submit that someone like Joe Lieberman, a cautious and thoughtful moderate, would likely have won this election--he would have carried the following states: California, New York, Massachusetts, Ohio, Florida, Illinois, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, New Hampshire, Vermont, Maine, Connecticut and Rhode Island.)
But Kerry--who was really perceived of as having few principles and simply being yet another pandering politician--chose to play to the Dean-led left and radicalize the party. And yet even as weak a candidate as Kerry probably could have won had he moderated his viewpoint--e,g., by acknowledged that low taxes benefit productivity and wealth-creation, which benefits everyone--and played to the center.
This is all dangerous because the more the Democratic party is marginalized, the more nutty things the Republicans have license to do--such as (1) configuring the Supreme Court, which will have a 30-year impact, (2) retarding scientific development, a la stem cell research, (3) pushing a gay marriage ban, (4) overturning Roe v. Wade, etc., and (5) accelerating the trend to making America a Christian theocracy; whereas a centrist and robust Democratic party would at least keep these baser Republican tendencies in check.
Unless the Democrats "get" this, the country will continue to drift to a far right posture, including, most importantly, the further weaving of (the Christian) religion into our cultural fabric (e.g., evidence the composition of the two new loonies in the Senate) which is both terrible for all of us and contrary to the principles upon which this country was founded.

First of all, let me say I'm shocked to actually read a post from you that acknowledges what a joke Junior is, which seems to be a 180 from everything you have written in the past.

Though your choice of Joe Lieberman as the answer doesn't quite work. Joe's about as right wing as one can be and still claim to be a Democrat. I'm not sure where Joe is on stem cells, but he's no fan of gay marriages or Roe vs Wade, and as far as theocracy goes, I think Joe would be all for it, given his past pro censorship views on music, movies, video games and so forth. Joe's only problem with theocracy would be the label "Christian", but since most of the radical right's agenda comes from the Old Testament anyway and virtually ignores the teachings of Jesus Christ, then it's really not all that "Christian" after all.

Howard Dean, on the other hand is a true moderate. Fiscally conservative, common sense viewpoints on what wars this country does and does not belong in, recognizes the need for stem cell research, as a doctor who understands medical science. And yes, the first governor in this country to sign a civil unions law, allowing gay couples to have the legal rights they deserve, while leaving issues of religious ceremonies to the churches, synagogues, etc, as it should be.

And he's got a Jewish wife and kids too ;)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
Its being handled....Mayor "turned republican when he got rich" made alot of enemies here! Pa-tacky will live or die on the min. wage increase, and so far he is dying!

Eliot Spitzer in 06'!

[Switch84]

Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
I know its funny, but...the second term has not even officially begun and....

already....boy it sucks to be a Major Airline employee!( they have asked Federal Judges to TERMINATE existing Union contracts)

This guy will undo the last 100 years worth of Labor legislation!

and that shit hits me hard!

:( Fuck, sorry about your woes, Ragoo Baby! I'm job hunting again, looking to change careers for the umpteenth time! I'm in Transportation, so I feel ya.

Unfortunately, unions as we know it have been slowly turning into an elitist fraternity rarely caring about their 'brothers in arms'. My former union president attended more high priced 'Grand Poobah' jaunts with fat cat business CEOs than addressing the needs of us workers!

Jimmy Hoffa died in more ways than one; his fight for the worker ideology has died, too.

[alsip]

Ford, For once we agree. Dean would have been a much better choice.

[DLR'sCock]

I thought they would have tore Dean apart, maybe I was wrong....


I disagree about the label of being Lefty Loon, blah blah bullshit, he's a moderate....in my eyes...

The repukes are experts at DEMONIZING people.....


Dvivide and conquer, so they can't say see where your swinging that chainsaw at next...

[Warham]

Howard Dean is a nutjob.

The conservative talkers in this country would have ripped him to shreds as soon as the primaries were over.

The whole Democratic field was weak.

The only hope that the libs have in '08 is Hillary, and that's just because Bill is at her side. She still won't win though.

[ELVIS]

Demonizing ??

[Warham]

Originally posted by DLR'sCock
I thought they would have tore Dean apart, maybe I was wrong....


I disagree about the label of being Lefty Loon, blah blah bullshit, he's a moderate....in my eyes...

The repukes are experts at DEMONIZING people.....


Dvivide and conquer, so they can't say see where your swinging that chainsaw at next...

Experts at demonizing you say?

Who's responsible for the slanderous attacks over the last two years on George W. Bush? Calling him an idiot and a corrupt puppet of Dick Cheney's who's only ambition was to go into Iraq for revenge while Halliburton was reaping the benefits of it all? Which by the way, are all lies. Who was responsible for those 527 ads?

[DLR'sCock]

Whatever, maybe you guys will get everything you want.....you know all of that stuff like......overturning Roe vs Wade, bringing back slavery, sending all of the good paying jobs overseas, invasion and annihilation of any nation that looks at the US funny, kicking every rational thinking person out of the country, making the US an official state of the neo-Christian doctrine, sending gays to prison camps, sending people that are looking to help out the average worker to death camps, burning and destroying every liberal and progressive leaning book, dismantling social security, dismantling public education, making joining the military mandatory.....etc etc etc....all ofthe fun stuff you monkeys dig....


hip hip hooray!!!!

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by DLR'sCock
Whatever, maybe you guys will get everything you want.....you know all of that stuff like......overturning Roe vs Wade, bringing back slavery, sending all of the good paying jobs overseas, invasion and annihilation of any nation that looks at the US funny, kicking every rational thinking person out of the country, making the US an official state of the neo-Christian doctrine, sending gays to prison camps, sending people that are looking to help out the average worker to death camps, burning and destroying every liberal and progressive leaning book, dismantling social security, dismantling public education, making joining the military mandatory.....etc etc etc....all ofthe fun stuff you monkeys dig....


hip hip hooray!!!!


Dude, you are further off the deep end than our resident nut case, FORD !!

Not one of your suggestions resemble the truth regarding conservatives...

[ELVIS]

Bringing back slavery ??

You are insane...

We're in an era where Condi Rice could be president in 2008, and you utter this nonsense ??

[DLR'sCock]

what, I can't present an extreme case of change over time by using sarcasm......???

do I really think this of the people in here???


no....

are there people that think this way in this world???

i bet there are....

[ELVIS]

Ok...

Answer me this...

Who do you think is responsible for, as you say "sending all of the good paying jobs overseas"...

How, from your perspective, does this happen ??

[Warham]

Originally posted by DLR'sCock
Whatever, maybe you guys will get everything you want.....you know all of that stuff like......overturning Roe vs Wade, bringing back slavery, sending all of the good paying jobs overseas, invasion and annihilation of any nation that looks at the US funny, kicking every rational thinking person out of the country, making the US an official state of the neo-Christian doctrine, sending gays to prison camps, sending people that are looking to help out the average worker to death camps, burning and destroying every liberal and progressive leaning book, dismantling social security, dismantling public education, making joining the military mandatory.....etc etc etc....all ofthe fun stuff you monkeys dig....


hip hip hooray!!!!

Hate to break this to ya Cock, but this country was founded with the Judeo-Christian theology in mind.

[4moreyears]

Presidential candidate Ralph Nader requested the recount,

Good idea Ralph, demand a re-count. You probably won the election. The bush campaign stole it from you. What a dumb ass.


sending all of the good paying jobs overseas

The republican party did that!!! Hey dumb ass business is global whether union card toten people like it or not. If someone can produce a higher quality product over seas as a business owner I have to go there because if I do not, my competition will. Don't be naive and blame the president. Blame the marketplace.

JH

[FORD]

I think corporate CEO pigs who pocket billion dollars salaries (plus bonuses and tax loopholes up the ass) can afford to pay American employees a liveable wage and not outsource their labor to overseas sweatshops.

[4moreyears]

I think corporate CEO pigs who pocket billion dollars salaries (plus bonuses and tax loopholes up the ass) can afford to pay American employees a liveable wage and not outsource their labor to overseas sweatshops.

If they are doing everything legally why are they entitled to pay someone more than someone else? I think the market place should determine someones wage. the value they bring to the workforce and market place. It is obvously that many CEO's can get multi million dollar salaries; because they provide value to the stockholders. As unfortunate as it is; the guy in the back swinging a hammer or manufacturing a product provides the value for which he is paid. YOu can hate it but that is the way it is; and the way it should be.

JH

[FORD]

It shouldn't be legal. That's the first problem. The raping of a country is just as much of a crime as raping a woman.

[4moreyears]

What is so illegal? Outsourcing? If that is your answer; then how can our companies compete with global companies who take advantage of lower labor costs to provide goods and services to the global market place?

JH

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Warham
Hate to break this to ya Cock, but this country was founded with the Judeo-Christian theology in mind.

No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Say it isn't so!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[FORD]

Crime #2 - the existence of "global" companies who believe themselves to be above all governments, all laws, and probably God Himself.

If you are a US company, you hire a US workforce, you pay them a liveable US wage (including reasonable benefits) you do your manaufacturing in the US, you pay your taxes in the US - not dodge them by making your corporate HQ a PO Box in the Cayman Islands.

What's so complicated about that?

[Switch84]

Originally posted by 4moreyears
If they are doing everything legally why are they entitled to pay someone more than someone else? I think the market place should determine someones wage. the value they bring to the workforce and market place. It is obvously that many CEO's can get multi million dollar salaries; because they provide value to the stockholders. As unfortunate as it is; the guy in the back swinging a hammer or manufacturing a product provides the value for which he is paid. YOu can hate it but that is the way it is; and the way it should be.

JH


That has got to be the most heartless, asinine statement I've seen posted today, Dude! If it weren't for the 'guy swinging the hammer' or manufacturing the product, the elitist CEOs wouldn't have the billions they horde. You're not going to see William Clay Ford Jr. working on the assembly line.

What you're advocating is slavery, pure and simple. If the so-called 'little people' were to walk out from every job nationwide for ONE DAY, this country would shut completely down! There isn't enough illegals to work it (or even have the skills) before you go there, baby!

[4moreyears]

If you are a US company, you hire a US workforce, you pay them a liveable US wage (including reasonable benefits) you do your manaufacturing in the US
All it takes is one company to go overseas and they get the market share while companies manufacturing products in the USA will close there doors. In some cases the US workers will not take some of the lower wage jobs and those that do are sometimes over paid for the job they do. Sometimes with shipping costs included it is less expensive to get product overseas and quality is much higher. If that is the case why would I higher and American worker. TO pay him more money for a lower caliber work? Would you pay steak prices for a McDonalds hamburger? In some cases that is what you get!!!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Hate to break this to ya Cock, but this country was founded with the Judeo-Christian theology in mind.

Actually it was founded on the age reason and based on the principles of the enlightenment which sought to minimize religious affiliations between church and state in order to prevent the abuses taking place in England and other European countries. Which founding father was a big Christian? George Washington? No. Ben Franklin? No. Thomas Jefferson. Definitely not.

I really wonder where the origin of this myth comes that somehow all the founding fathers where seeking to set up a Christian theocratic state and somehow all these pinko-Liberals came in to subvert this and started an official Satan worshipping policy.

What specifically makes you believe that America was to be a state-sanctioned Christian nation?

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
No!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Say it isn't so!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well if only it were so....

But considering the country was founded with slave labor on stolen land, the theology wasn't exactly "Christian" even then.

Ironically, the most obvious example of someone following JC's teachings back then was probably the Native Americans of the Plymouth Colony who fed the Pilgrims and taught them how to survive winter on this continent (a timely reminder, given the season)

Like I said, there's the irony... the "heathen savages" who had never even read the Bible were living the teaching "do unto others as you would have them do unto you". If they would have known what the Pilgrims descendants would later do, ya think they might have let them starve?

[4moreyears]

That has got to be the most heartless, asinine statement I've seen posted today,

I personally have nothing against the working man. But they have no control over the situation. It is that simple. I am just making an observation that is reality. Look at the following examples and it will tell you what I mean.

Situation 1

In 1995 I own a company that has a statisical annalysis department which employs 10 people. because business is becoming more global; I need to be able to compete with overseas competition who most likely does not play by the same rules we do. Then I find a new software program that in 3 years allows me to get the same output of work done by 6 people. Continuing upgrades to the software; and additional advances in computer technology allow me to trim my manpower to 4 in another 3 years. When it gets cut in half in another 2 years.

Situation 2

A doctor who used a dictation device to record notes sends out the tapes to be typed and for his records. These notes are needed for reference for the benefit of the insurance companies. Advancements to technology introduce him to a MP3 format dictation device where he can upload the files to his pc for easy storage than the paper copies. Then he realizes he can e-mail these files anywhere in the world for their translation from voice to data. Continuing financial pressures from the Insurance companies force the doctor to e-mail the files overseas because he can get the translations done for a fraction of the price that he was paying for the same service to get done in his same town.

In my opinion this is what is happening to the jobs in this country. Paul Zane Pilzer predicted this in his 1991 best seller Unlimited Wealth. If you are not familiar with Paul's work it is fascinating and I highly recommend you try to find his book on Amazon. You will mostly have to find a used copy because I think it is out of print. These types of scenarios are happening all over the country. This can not be stopped. Our country is the greatest country in the world, but if you are in a position that can be out sourced; plan on it. I think this is why the President said in the third debates that if you are worried about your job, get more education. He knows he can't stop the advancement of technology and globalization of business.
JH

[Switch84]

Originally posted by 4moreyears
I personally have nothing against the working man. But they have no control over the situation. It is that simple. I am just making an observation that is reality. Look at the following examples and it will tell you what I mean.

Situation 1

In 1995 I own a company that has a statisical annalysis department which employs 10 people. because business is becoming more global; I need to be able to compete with overseas competition who most likely does not play by the same rules we do. Then I find a new software program that in 3 years allows me to get the same output of work done by 6 people. Continuing upgrades to the software; and additional advances in computer technology allow me to trim my manpower to 4 in another 3 years. When it gets cut in half in another 2 years.

Situation 2

A doctor who used a dictation device to record notes sends out the tapes to be typed and for his records. These notes are needed for reference for the benefit of the insurance companies. Advancements to technology introduce him to a MP3 format dictation device where he can upload the files to his pc for easy storage than the paper copies. Then he realizes he can e-mail these files anywhere in the world for their translation from voice to data. Continuing financial pressures from the Insurance companies force the doctor to e-mail the files overseas because he can get the translations done for a fraction of the price that he was paying for the same service to get done in his same town.

In my opinion this is what is happening to the jobs in this country. Paul Zane Pilzer predicted this in his 1991 best seller Unlimited Wealth. If you are not familiar with Paul's work it is fascinating and I highly recommend you try to find his book on Amazon. You will mostly have to find a used copy because I think it is out of print. These types of scenarios are happening all over the country. This can not be stopped. Our country is the greatest country in the world, but if you are in a position that can be out sourced; plan on it. I think this is why the President said in the third debates that if you are worried about your job, get more education. He knows he can't stop the advancement of technology and globalization of business.
JH


:( Yeah, we are turning into the "Matrix" and "The Terminator" in the computer technology sense. We want convenience and that means accomplishing more with less. I'm 100% behind the education angle, which is why I'm upgrading my skills now.

We're at the 'sink or swim' point in the employment pool, and noone is drown proof.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Actually it was founded on the age reason and based on the principles of the enlightenment which sought to minimize religious affiliations between church and state in order to prevent the abuses taking place in England and other European countries. Which founding father was a big Christian? George Washington? No. Ben Franklin? No. Thomas Jefferson. Definitely not.

I really wonder where the origin of this myth comes that somehow all the founding fathers where seeking to set up a Christian theocratic state and somehow all these pinko-Liberals came in to subvert this and started an official Satan worshipping policy.

What specifically makes you believe that America was to be a state-sanctioned Christian nation?

I never believed that the government was to sanction any religion, including Christianity. That's why the separation of church and state exists in the first place.

After I did some research just now, I realize what I posted before was a bit hasty. It seems that some of our founding fathers were a bit 'nasty' in regards to the Bible.

Please pardon that error on my part.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
I never believed that the government was to sanction any religion, including Christianity. That's why the separation of church and state exists in the first place.

After I did some research just now, I realize what I posted before was a bit hasty. It seems that some of our founding fathers were a bit 'nasty' in regards to the Bible.

Please pardon that error on my part.

They were products of their time learning from the mistakes of those that used religion to consolidate their political power while not abiding it.

That does not mean the founding fathers were anti-religious or non-spiritual, merely that they believed that one's beliefs and spirituality should be reflected in one's actions, not in one's political rhetoric or institutional foundations. That's my belief anyway.

[Warham]

Your beliefs seem to be correct on this matter.

:D

[ELVIS]

Hmmm...

[Warham]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Hmmm...

What can I say?

John Adams:

"I almost shudder at the thought of alluding to the most fatal example of the abuses of grief which the history of mankind has preserved--the Cross. Consider what calamities that engine of grief has produced!"--John Adams in a letter to Thomas Jefferson

"But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legaends, hae been blended with both Jewish and Chiistian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed.--John Adams in a letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_, John A. Haught

"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity." --John Adams

Benjamin Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"I cannot conceive otherwise than that He, the Infinite Father, expects or requires no worship or praise from us, but that He is even infinitely above it." -- Benjamin Franklin, _Articles_Of_Belief_and_Acts_of_Religion_, Nov.20, 1728

"I wish it (Christianity) were more productive of good works ... I mean real good works ... not holy day keeping, sermon-hearing ... or making long prayers, filled with flatteries and compliments despised by wise men, and much less capable of pleasing the Deity." -- Benjamin Franklin , _Works_ Vol.VII, p.75

"If we look back into history for the character of the present sects of Christianity, we shall find few that have not in turns been persecutors and complainers of persecution. The primitive Christians thought persecution extremely wrong in Pagans, but practiced it on one another. The first Protestants of the Church of England blamed persecution on the Roman church, but preactied i on the Puritans. They found it wrong in Bishops, but fell into the practice both here (England) and in New England"--Benjamin Franklin, _Poor_Richard_, 1758

"When a religion is good, I conceive it will support itself; and when it does not support itself, and God does not take care to support it so that its professors are obliged to call for help of the civil power, 'tis a sign, I apprehend, of its being a bad one." -- Benjamin Franklin, _2000_Years_of_Disbelief_ by James A. Haught


"Religion I found to be without any tendency to inspire, promote, or confirm morality, serves principally to divide us and make us unfriendly to one another."--Benjamin Franklin

Thomas Jefferson

"Shake off all the fears of servile prejudices, under which weak minds are serviley crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call on her tribunal for every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God, because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blind faith." -- Thomas Jefferson

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition _, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281

"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."--Thomas Jefferson, _Notes_on_Virginia_, _Jefferson_the_President:_First_Term_1801-1805_, Dumas Malon, Boston: Little Brown and Company, 1970, p. 191

"...no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship ministry or shall otherwise suffer on account of his religious opinions or belief, but all men shall be free to profess and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise.. affect their civil capacities."--Thomas Jefferson, _Statute_for_Religious_Freedom_, 1779, _The_Papers_of_Thomas_Jefferson_, edited by Julron P. Boyd, 1950, 2:546

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
What can I say?

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."--Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association on Jan. 1, 1802, _The_Writings_of_Thomas_Jefferson_Memorial_Edition _, edited by Lipscomb and Bergh, 1903-04, 16:281


AMEN! Jefferson saw Jesus, first and formost, as a humanist philosopher.

[Carmine]

Originally posted by Switch84
:( Fuck, sorry about your woes, Ragoo Baby! I'm job hunting again, looking to change careers for the umpteenth time! I'm in Transportation, so I feel ya.

Unfortunately, unions as we know it have been slowly turning into an elitist fraternity rarely caring about their 'brothers in arms'. My former union president attended more high priced 'Grand Poobah' jaunts with fat cat business CEOs than addressing the needs of us workers!

Jimmy Hoffa died in more ways than one; his fight for the worker ideology has died, too.

I work for SEIU, Switch. I represent a variety of members in different fields. Public service, Private service, school districts, building service etc. What the concern is, Bush is the most anti-union president in a century! The reason he is is that where you said "unions are turning into an elitest fraternity rarely caring about their "brothers in arms", is not the case at all. Those "Fat Cat" presidents are mostly gone... either to jail or were just not reelected by their members. Those days are a thing of the past. Bush is for big business, we all know that, and the only way for those companies to make even more money is to crush the Unions that are negotiating fair wage, health insurance and pensions for the average worker. The labor movement as a whole has not been this focused in years, more workers are signing up for memberships because the "company" wont be fair. The more anti-union activism Bush and his gang put forth, the stronger the Unions get!
I feel for those airline workers, when your employer can ask for federal relief from a signed Union contract, and most likely get it, things in this country are way out of control. I went to Scranton PA on election day to walk the streets getting support for John Kerry. There were 1200 Union staff and members just at this one AFSCME local we went to. The "brotherhood" is alive and well! We have to be, our future and that of the people I am priveleged to represent every day, depends on it!:)

[Nickdfresh]

Part of the on-going Bush onslaught on the middle-class.

[Carmine]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Part of the on-going Bush onslaught on the middle-class.

And those airline workers that are about to get fucked over are the same people that received those better contracts as a result of 9/11!

Thanks for all you do on the job!
George W. Bush

P.S. Now surrender 20% of your wages, the health insurance coverage for you and your family, and I'll take your retirement pension too! Thanks again!~

[Nickdfresh]

No over-time for you!

[Carmine]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
No over-time for you!

Dont even get me started on that one!

Bush= Fargin Icehole!:D

[Carmine]

heres the boys now:

[Switch84]

:D Oh, damn.........LMAO!