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Nickdfresh
11-18-2004, 11:55 AM
Getting the Bible back to its roots
New Pentateuch translation from original Hebrew meanings
Thursday, November 18, 2004 Posted: 9:49 AM EST (1449 GMT)


LOS ANGELES, California (Reuters) -- It is considered the most magisterial opening in English literature: "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."

But now a major revisionist translation of the Bible would have the cosmos begin with a more conversational clause: "When God began to create heaven and earth ... "

And where the King James translation of Genesis had the earth begin "without form and void," the new translation of the Hebrew Bible says that the earth was "welter and waste."

Biblical scholar Robert Alter's major new English translation of the first five books of the Hebrew Bible -- alternately called the Five Books of Moses, the Torah or Pentateuch -- has some critics manning the barricades while others are applauding his efforts to return the work to its original Hebrew meanings and majestic repetitions.

A professor at the University of California at Berkeley, Alter says since he has never found a biblical translation that he liked or could recommend to his comparative literature students, he decided to do his own, starting with the story of Genesis and ending with the death of Moses.

His argument is that past translations either get the Hebrew wrong or mangle the Bible's syntax or lose the power of the work or even are so up-to-the-minute that they become too conversational to be accurate or interesting.

He was also determined to get back into the book every single "and" that other translators left out, saying that part of book's majesty is built by its use of repetitions.

The 1611 King James version, perhaps the most famous book ever written by a committee, may reach poetic heights, but Alter says it is fraught with "embarrassing inaccuracies" and often substitutes Greek or Latin words and Renaissance English tonalities and rhythms for biblical ones.

'Concrete images'
"Reading through this book is a wearying, disorientating and at times revelatory experience," said noted author John Updike in a review of Alter's 1,063-page translation of "The Five Books of Moses" (Norton) for the New Yorker magazine in which he complained about page after page of footnotes that often explain obscure points.

Updike also took exception to some of the translation. For example, he is a lot happier with the King James version in which "the spirit of God moved upon the face of the water" than with Alter's version of the same sentence: "God's breath hovering over the waters."


Biblical scholar Robert Alter decided to translate the Torah himself after he couldn't find a translation that satisfied him.
But Alter, in an interview with Reuters, said he used the phrase "God's breath" rather than the "spirit of God" for a simple reason: "The Hebrew word means life's breath, a constant moving of oxygen in and out. The body-soul split of early Christianity is something not imagined in the early Hebrew."

Alter said his task was to find the English equivalents of the Hebrew. "Hebrew is filled with concrete images. For example, the King James translates the famous lines of Ecclesiastes as 'vanity of vanities ... all is vanity' but the closest word in English to the Hebrew is 'vapor, vapor, all is mere vapor.' "

Washington Post reviewer Michael Dirda said that some Bible translations are so simple-minded that Adam and Eve might as well be called Dick and Jane, but "Alter will have nothing to do with (such) dumbing-down.

"This makes reading his version of the Torah ... thrilling and constantly illuminating: After the still, small voices of so many tepid modern translations, here is a whirlwind."

Alter said he was especially pleased with restoring all the "ands" back in a passage where Abraham's servant is sent on a mission to find a wife for Isaac and encounters Rebekah:

"And she came down to the spring and filled her jug and came back up. And the servant ran toward her and said, 'Pray, let me sip a bit of water from your jug.' And she said, 'Drink, my lord,' and she hurried and tipped down her jug on one hand and let him drink. And she let him drink his fill and said, 'For your camels, too, I shall draw water until they drink their fill.' And she hurried and emptied her jug into the trough, and she ran again to the well to draw water and drew water for all his camels."

The 15 "ands" manage to build a picture of what Alter calls "the closest anyone comes in Genesis to a feat of 'Homeric' heroism" -- especially when one considers how much a camel drinks.

Alter added: "I began this translation as a kind of dubious experiment asking, 'Is there some (method) of getting Biblical Hebrew into modern English in a way that would be readable but not be too contemporary sounding and reproduce many of the stylish effects of the Hebrew?' "

Some critics think he found the way. And how.

Copyright 2004 Reuters. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

FORD
11-18-2004, 12:01 PM
Oy vey, yet another translation?

Good thing we can go directly to the source here.None other than JC Himself. :)

Denny
11-18-2004, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Oy vey, yet another translation?

Good thing we can go directly to the source here.None other than JC Himself. :)

Thanks to your split personality!!!!!

:(

bueno bob
11-18-2004, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Oy vey, yet another translation?

Good thing we can go directly to the source here.None other than JC Himself. :)

Unfortunately, Jesus isn't much one for direct confrontation on the double-standards and mysteries in his book, so I really wouldn't recommend it - would you? ;)

secrets
11-18-2004, 03:44 PM
The best part in the new addition is at the beginning on page one:

"All characters in this publication are fictitious and any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental."

They left that out of the original translation.

ELVIS
11-18-2004, 03:54 PM
That sounds awesome!

Good find, Nick...


:elvis:

Jesus Christ
11-18-2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by secrets
The best part in the new addition is at the beginning on page one:

"All characters in this publication are fictitious and any resemblance to real persons, living or dead, is purely coincidental."

They left that out of the original translation.

**prepares a plague of locusts......***

:mad:

Jesus Christ
11-18-2004, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by bueno bob
Unfortunately, Jesus isn't much one for direct confrontation on the double-standards and mysteries in his book, so I really wouldn't recommend it - would you? ;)

There are no double standards with Me. Only misinterpretations, My son.

bueno bob
11-18-2004, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Jesus Christ
There are no double standards with Me. Only misinterpretations, My son.

Jesus, I whipped your ass so hard the last time we debated religious theory you ran off with your tail between your legs!

HAIL SATAN! :killer:

ELVIS
11-18-2004, 05:37 PM
That, I highly doubt...

FORD
11-18-2004, 05:49 PM
Verily...

bueno bob
11-18-2004, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
That, I highly doubt...

He disappeared in a cloud of dust the last time I discussed several of the numerous inconsistancies in Christian dogma...oh, but I'm sure the great Lord has better things to do with his glorious time than to actually debate someone with intelligence and be confronted with specifics, hmm? :)

DrMaddVibe
11-19-2004, 07:36 AM
Bob, an empty wagon makes a lot of noise.

Know what I mean?

bueno bob
11-19-2004, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Bob, an empty wagon makes a lot of noise.

Know what I mean?

And Christian fundamentalists make NO noise when confronted on the blatant gaps with their dogma. I don't really think they actually like the confrontation...they shy away from intelligent debate...BELIEVE OR GO TO HELL, that's the motto that should be hung over the doors to pretty much every church so far as I'm concerned...none of them really has anything better to offer.

Know what I mean?

Seshmeister
11-19-2004, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Jesus Christ
**prepares a plague of locusts......***

:mad:

Which strangely never arrives.

Meanwhile millions of innocent children die of starvation and disease in Africa.

Funny that...

Jesus Christ
11-19-2004, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
Which strangely never arrives.

Meanwhile millions of innocent children die of starvation and disease in Africa.

Funny that...

No it's not funny, My son. But it is the way that I told you it would be......

Matthew 24
1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

secrets
11-19-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by bueno bob
And Christian fundamentalists make NO noise when confronted on the blatant gaps with their dogma. I don't really think they actually like the confrontation...they shy away from intelligent debate...BELIEVE OR GO TO HELL, that's the motto that should be hung over the doors to pretty much every church so far as I'm concerned...none of them really has anything better to offer.

Know what I mean?

5 star vote. That is pure poetry.

bueno bob
11-19-2004, 02:07 PM
Thanks, Secrets :) Here's a five star your way as well.

bueno bob
11-19-2004, 02:12 PM
Originally posted by Jesus Christ
No it's not funny, My son. But it is the way that I told you it would be......

Matthew 24
blah blah blah...
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Easy to see why God's so loving, isn't it? "Since I love you, you just suffer all this shit gladly and I'll reward you in Heaven; how do you know Heaven actually exists and there is a God and I'm His son? Well, just take my word for it, OK? That's all ya need...trust me..."

Essentially, that's what it all boils down to when you get right down to it, IMO.

Switch84
11-19-2004, 02:58 PM
:( Ok, so you religion haters don't dig the Bible, Koran, or the Torah. Fine.

Attacking believers of these religions/doctrines is just as intolerant and dumb as you claim we are of your secular lifestyles and/or beliefs.

My relationship with God (in the Christian faith) is personal and my choice. I don't care what other folks do with their lives; I can only answer for my life. Neither do I try to force my beliefs onto others. If folks are interested in Christianity and ask me about it, I'll tell them what it means to me.

It should be like that across the board with any lifestyle choice.

Warham
11-19-2004, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Oy vey, yet another translation?

Good thing we can go directly to the source here.None other than JC Himself. :)

The only problem is FORD, when you assume your Jesus identity you trash the Old Testament when the real Jesus would never do such a thing.

Warham
11-19-2004, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by bueno bob
And Christian fundamentalists make NO noise when confronted on the blatant gaps with their dogma. I don't really think they actually like the confrontation...they shy away from intelligent debate...BELIEVE OR GO TO HELL, that's the motto that should be hung over the doors to pretty much every church so far as I'm concerned...none of them really has anything better to offer.

Know what I mean?

I'll always try to debate you intelligently, Bob. At your discretion, of course. I don't shy away from debating my beliefs. :D

YAWN
11-19-2004, 06:00 PM
Time to break out the Buddy Christ and a New American Version translation...

"First, there was, like, space an' stuff. Then teh 1337 G-Unit went all BOOMSHAKALAKA and made teh waturz and the beach, but it was all plain an' stuff, like level 3 in Quake, without trees or people or Starbucks."

Ally_Kat
11-19-2004, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Jesus Christ
**prepares a plague of locusts......***

:mad:


Originally posted by Seshmeister
Which strangely never arrives.



Locusts plague southern Israel

Fri Nov 19, 2:11 PM ET Mideast - AFP

JERUSALEM (AFP) - Swarms of locusts descended over the southern Israeli town of Eilat, official sources reported after night-fall.


The authorities had expected the insects to swarm in over the farming belt in the Negev, north of Eilat, and dozens of residents telephoned the local municipality to alert the council to the unwelcome migrants.


The agriculture ministry told army radio that it was ready to enact its emergency anti-locust plan and scramble aircraft to spray insecticide.


In Rome, the UN Food and Agriculture Organisation warned earlier Friday that a small number of locust swarms could cross from northern Egypt into Israel and the Palestinian territories.


The crop-ravaging insects, which have this month been reported in Cyprus, northern Egypt and Lebanon, were last seen in Israel in the 1950s.


http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041117/i/r1686657149.jpg
Swarms of locusts obscure the Giza pyramids near Cairo, November 17, 2004. Swarms of pink locusts swept through Cairo on Wednesday that recalled the plague of biblical Egypt, flying high above tall towers and scaring pedestrians who stamped on them or ran for cover. REUTERS/Aladin Abdel Naby

Seshmeister
11-19-2004, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Switch84
:( Ok, so you religion haters don't dig the Bible, Koran, or the Torah. Fine.

Attacking believers of these religions/doctrines is just as intolerant and dumb as you claim we are of your secular lifestyles and/or beliefs.

My relationship with God (in the Christian faith) is personal and my choice. I don't care what other folks do with their lives; I can only answer for my life. Neither do I try to force my beliefs onto others. If folks are interested in Christianity and ask me about it, I'll tell them what it means to me.

It should be like that across the board with any lifestyle choice.

Religionists, or superstitious people more accurately, have persecuted a hell of a lot more people over the years than atheists.

When you think about it Atheist actually is a dumb term as it means someone that doesn't believe in God yet there is no word for someone that doesn't believe in elves and pixies.

Switch84
11-19-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
Religionists, or superstitious people more accurately, have persecuted a hell of a lot more people over the years than atheists.

When you think about it Atheist actually is a dumb term as it means someone that doesn't believe in God yet there is no word for someone that doesn't believe in elves and pixies.


:p Atheist isn't a term I use. Condescendingly ridiculing people's beliefs isn't something I do, either. You seem to have issues with people that practice a religion, which isn't any of your concern, just like you rant about people choosing a sexual preference isn't of anyone else's concern (outside of the parties involved.)

Mankind in general has been cruel to all, regardless of how you pray (or not), fuck (or not), and vote (or not.)

Now quit your bitching and fix DDLR, DAMN IT!


ROFLMMFAOBT!

ELVIS
11-19-2004, 09:34 PM
I find the term "superstitious" slightly offending, but, that's ok...

I assure you, Sesh, that God, as is all supernatural, is real...

Nickdfresh
11-19-2004, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
I find the term "superstitious" slightly offending, but, that's ok...

I assure you, Sesh, that God, as is all supernatural, is real...

It also implies a certain arrogent school of thought that nothing beyond your immidiate senses can exist or be real.

ELVIS
11-19-2004, 09:37 PM
Correct...

Seshmeister
11-19-2004, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Switch84
:p Atheist isn't a term I use. Condescendingly ridiculing people's beliefs isn't something I do, either. You seem to have issues with people that practice a religion, which isn't any of your concern, just like you rant about people choosing a sexual preference isn't of anyone else's concern (outside of the parties involved.)


Not at all, I would be much more polite in real life than the internet.

Hell I have an old friend that's a minister that stays with us often.

I'm just playing devils advocate here. Too many people seem to buy into religion as a wholesale package, put it in a box and then think good I don't need to worry about life the universe and everything any more.

I can appreciate that stance since life can suck and we all need our crutches.

The downside is one day a bunch of folk start crashing planes into buildings because they think they'll get to fuck the brains out of virgins.

Or applying their faith to running the most powerful country in the world. Just because I have no proof of something I believe it exists even if it's WMD's.

Cheers!

:gulp:

ELVIS
11-19-2004, 10:01 PM
Hmmm...

ELVIS
11-19-2004, 10:11 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
Not at all, I would be much more polite in real life than the internet.

I believe that...:D

Hell I have an old friend that's a minister that stays with us often.

If he's a real man of God he should try to rerach you in some aspect...

I trust he probably has...

I'm just playing devils advocate here.

I hear ya...

Too many people seem to buy into religion as a wholesale package, put it in a box and then think good I don't need to worry about life the universe and everything any more.

Please do not put me in that category...

I can appreciate that stance since life can suck and we all need our crutches.

That's where we differ, It's not a crutch...

The downside is one day a bunch of folk start crashing planes into buildings because they think they'll get to fuck the brains out of virgins.

I don't have the answer to that, but I do believe that it was not of Gods will...

Or applying their faith to running the most powerful country in the world.

???

Just because I have no proof of something I believe it exists even if it's WMD's.

???

Cheers!

:gulp:



:elvis:

Nickdfresh
11-19-2004, 10:16 PM
Just curious Seshmeister, are you and atheist, agnostic, or a believer (even a believer in a unconventional "low church" sense).

Switch84
11-19-2004, 10:25 PM
:) LOL! Sesh, the folks that give up all reasoning and use religion as a 'crutch' got lost in the translation! Thinking for yourself and being responsible for the choices you make in life is what you have 'free will' for. That old excuse 'the Devil made me do it' is utter and total BULLSHIT! Nobody (or entity) makes you do shit.

Those folks use religion to escape from reality. I use it as a spiritual resource library to assist me when I need it.

Seshmeister
11-19-2004, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Just curious Seshmeister, are you and atheist, agnostic, or a believer (even a believer in a unconventional "low church" sense).

I've gone from agnostic to atheist over the last few years.

To be honest it sucks but there you go. Noone is more disappointed about it than me.

I read a lot of science and theology and religion is a house of cards.

I have my moral code and I think I'm nicer to my fellow man than your average person...:)

I've only met a few 'real' Christians in my time and I admired them. I'm talking the guys that really go for it in their actions. If everyone was like that the world would be a much better place whether there was any truth in it or not.

Funnily enough the ones that did the whole soup kitchen, turn the other cheek, easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle people never tried to preach to me...

Cheers!


:gulp:

SensibleShoes
11-19-2004, 11:50 PM
Now there's a wise man. You're closer to God than you know. Some of the worst Christians I know belong to churches. Sometimes the biggest thing wrong with faith is organized religion.

Seshmeister
11-19-2004, 11:51 PM
I saw a post here recently where they said "Hey I may be wrong about Christianity and it's all bullshit but if it exists I'm sorted and if it doesn't then I've lost nothing"

I thought that was funny. Kind of missing the point as I understood it but honest and probably the way most people are when you strip everything away.

I'm sticking my neck out here and saying bullshit...:)

Cheers!

:gulp:

SensibleShoes
11-19-2004, 11:59 PM
Heh. Cover your ass in all instances, eh?

I guess I just think that faith or God or whatever is much MUCH more simple than people think it is. The more you strip down your belief system and just go out and live every day, the closer you get to what it's supposed to be like We all think too fucking much.

I just really don't think any kind of supreme being would give TWO SHITS about being worshiped. If there is one, and he made the earth and made us - then the mandate is to go out and live in it - enjoy it - make the most of what you're given and procreate. Then you die. That ALONE is a hell of a thing.

If everybody would quit agonizing about a bunch of scrolls that are hopelessly outdated and badly translated, we'd all be a lot better off. 99 percent of it is just common sense anyway.

Nickdfresh
11-20-2004, 12:14 AM
Thomas Jefferson, the real father of America, was an agnostic. He didn't believe in standard Christian doctrine, but he believed that Jesus was a great philosopher even if he wasn't the son of God.

Seshmeister
11-20-2004, 12:14 AM
Yeah.

You don't need the cloud with the white beard you can do it logically with common sense.

Bastards are always intrinsically unhappy people.

People that are envious, or takers or bitches may end up monetarily richer but what's the point of the extra room in your house if you're worrying about the guy down the street with a pool.

I saw a documentary years ago about a computer competition. What they did was they got all these top programmers and gave them this scenario. They had to design a virtual person(bot) who had a limitless bag of cookies. When they encountered another person in the program they could either give them a cookie or not based on the code that they wrote. For example you could say my guy always takes but doesn't give or my guy always gives.

The winner was the one who got the most cookies.

They unleashed a couple of hundred of these into a virtual environment and let it run for a few days. All these brilliant computer scientists had come up with incredibly complex algorithms. The one that won by a mile had the least code.

All it did was always give the first time it met another bot. If it got a cookie back it would remember and give again to the same bot. If it didn't it didn't.

Morality can be logical without supernatural stuff.

This post was brought to you by Havana Club Rum.:)

Cheers!

:gulp:

Nickdfresh
11-20-2004, 12:20 AM
There's a book out called something on the order of "The God-Gene" that arrives to a similiar conclusion I think.

Seshmeister
11-20-2004, 12:22 AM
Shit you mean that you can get drunken ramblings published...?:D

Nickdfresh
11-20-2004, 12:30 AM
Drinking unleashes one's suppressed creativity!

Seshmeister
11-20-2004, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Thomas Jefferson, the real father of America, was an agnostic. He didn't believe in standard Christian doctrine, but he believed that Jesus was a great philosopher even if he wasn't the son of God.

""History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes" [Jefferson Letter to von Humboldt, [1813]."

I wonder what he would have thought of Mr Bush...

Abe Lincoln was not a Christian either.

Seshmeister
11-20-2004, 12:55 AM
A quick question for the church goers.

Is there a lightning rod on the spire of your church?

Ally_Kat
11-20-2004, 01:12 AM
no. why?

Switch84
11-20-2004, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by Ally_Kat
no. why?


:D Not on mine, either.

bueno bob
11-20-2004, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by Warham
I'll always try to debate you intelligently, Bob. At your discretion, of course. I don't shy away from debating my beliefs. :D

I totally respect you, dude! I'm getting ready for another round with ya soon :)

secrets
11-20-2004, 06:35 AM
Q: Which has caused more problems for mankind the Bible or the Karma Sutra?

ELVIS
11-20-2004, 06:42 AM
I'm inclined to say that our local pastor seems to be totally devoted to his relationship with Christ...

That's fine and awesome and whatever...

I'm more interested in how that applies to our everyday relationship with each other...

I believe that is what Christ is all about...


:elvis:

Switch84
11-20-2004, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by secrets
Q: Which has caused more problems for mankind the Bible or the Karma Sutra?

:p My college Spanish book has caused me more trouble. It delved into the Latin American dialects and my high school Spanish teacher (who is from Madrid, Spain) only taught us the Castillian Spanish dialects. She felt Latin Americans bastardized her native tongue.

LMMFAOBT!

Seshmeister
11-21-2004, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by secrets
Q: Which has caused more problems for mankind the Bible or the Karma Sutra?

To be fair I've never put my back out after reading the bible...

aesop
11-21-2004, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
I saw a post here recently where they said "Hey I may be wrong about Christianity and it's all bullshit but if it exists I'm sorted and if it doesn't then I've lost nothing"

I thought that was funny. Kind of missing the point as I understood it but honest and probably the way most people are when you strip everything away.

I'm sticking my neck out here and saying bullshit...:)

Cheers!

:gulp:

Thomas Jefferson was actually the first to say that. He had his own version of the bible whereby he crossed out the words he didn't like or thought didn't belong.

He was smart enough to understand that although we will not have all of the answers to life while on earth, to say there is no higher power in the universe than us is potentially morally irresponsible, since there is evidence throughout the universe as to the inclaclulatable grandeur of The Creator, and absolutely no evidence that one doesn't exist.

In fact, that only way to ever prove God doesn't exist would be to have some omnipotent power in the universe to unequivocally ask the question to, but in that case you'd ba talking to God! So as an Atheist you could not ever be too sure of you opinion, IMHO.

Mulaka
11-21-2004, 04:17 PM
I don't believe in God. I have, however, witnessed the supernatural. I believe in supernatural aspects that provide proof....like what I have witnessed. The Christian God and his religion is ridiculous. Why? Well, christian Theism in its most basic sense entails observations that would necessarily be made by everyone everywhere and at all times, and thus it is as easily disproven as the alien in the bathtub is. For instance, God is theoretically omnipresent, and granted us the ability to know him (to feel his loving presence, etc.), yet I have absolutely no sensation of any God or anything that would be entailed by a God, even though by definition he is within me and around me wherever I go. Likewise, God is theoretically the epitome of compassion, and also all-knowing and all-powerful and beyond all injury, yet I know that what demonstrates someone as compassionate is the alleviation of all suffering known to them and safely within their power to alleviate. All suffering in the world must be known and safely within the power of God to alleviate, yet it is still there, and since the Christian 'theory' entails the opposite observation, Christianity is false. Likewise, God theoretically designed the universe for a moral purpose, but the universe lacks moral features--animals thrive by survival of the fittest, not survival of the kindest, and the laws of physics are no respecter of persons, they treat the good man and the bad man equally. Moreover, the universe behaves like a mindless machine, and exhibits no intelligent action of its own accord, and there are no messages or features of a linguistic nature anywhere in its extra-human composition or behavior, such as we would expect if a thinking person had designed it and wanted to communicate with us.
Christians attempt to preserve their proposed theory by moving it into the set of unprovables that lack all evidence. They do this arbitrarily, and for no other reason than to save the proposed theory, by creating impassable barriers to observation, just as requiring us to look in every corner of every universe creates an impassable barrier for one who is asked to decisively disprove the statement "there are big green Martians." For instance, the advanced theory holds that God alleviates suffering in heaven, which we conveniently cannot observe, and he has reasons for waiting and allowing suffering to persist on Earth, reasons which are also suitably unobservable to us, because God chooses not to explain them, just as he chooses, again for an unstated reason that is entirely inscrutable, to remain utterly invisible to all my senses, external and internal, despite being always around and inside me and otherwise capable of speaking to me plainly.
The problem is not, as some theists think, that we can find no explanations to "rationalize" a god in this world of hurt. I can imagine numerous gods who would be morally justified and even admirable, and others who would be neither evil nor good, and still others who are evil, but none of these would be the Christian god. The fact is that Christianity is the proposal of a theory, and like all theories, it entails predictions--but these predictions are not being born out. So Christians invent excuses to save the theory--excuses which have absolutely no basis in any evidence or inference, except the sole fact that they rescue the theory. This is Ptolemy's epicycles all over again: the motions of the planets and sun refused to fit the theory that they all revolve around the Earth, so Ptolemy invented numerous complex patterns of motion that had no particular reason to happen other than the fact that they rescue the theory of geocentricity. It is simply far wiser to conclude that instead of this monstrously complex and bizarre architecture of groundless saving suppositions, it makes far more sense, and uses far fewer suppositions, to simply admit that the universe doesn't revolve around the Earth after all. As for all the other theories--all the other possible gods--there is no more evidence for them than for this incredibly complex deity with a dozen strange and mysterious reasons that only too conveniently explain why we never observe him or his actions in any clear way.
Of course, even these groundless "solutions" to the Christian 'theory' do not really save the theory, because, to maintain it, at some point you must abandon belief in God's omnipotence--since at every turn, God is forced to do something (to remain hidden and to wait before alleviating suffering, etc.) by some unknown feature of reality, and this entails that some feature of reality is more powerful than God. And this feature cannot merely be God's moral nature, since if that were his only limitation, there would then be no barrier to his speaking to me or acting immediately to alleviate suffering or designing the universe to have overtly moral or linguistic features, since any truly moral nature would compel, not prevent, such behavior. Thus, the Christian hypothesis is either incoherent or improvable, and in the one case, it is necessarily false, while in the other it lacks justification, so we have no reason to believe it, any more than we have a reason to believe that there is a big green Martian on some planet in some corner of some universe.

BigBadBrian
11-21-2004, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Mulaka
I don't believe in God. I have, however, witnessed the supernatural. I believe in supernatural aspects that provide proof....like what I have witnessed. The Christian God and his religion is ridiculous. Why? Well, christian Theism in its most basic sense entails observations that would necessarily be made by everyone everywhere and at all times, and thus it is as easily disproven as the alien in the bathtub is. For instance, God is theoretically omnipresent, and granted us the ability to know him (to feel his loving presence, etc.), yet I have absolutely no sensation of any God or anything that would be entailed by a God, even though by definition he is within me and around me wherever I go. Likewise, God is theoretically the epitome of compassion, and also all-knowing and all-powerful and beyond all injury, yet I know that what demonstrates someone as compassionate is the alleviation of all suffering known to them and safely within their power to alleviate. All suffering in the world must be known and safely within the power of God to alleviate, yet it is still there, and since the Christian 'theory' entails the opposite observation, Christianity is false. Likewise, God theoretically designed the universe for a moral purpose, but the universe lacks moral features--animals thrive by survival of the fittest, not survival of the kindest, and the laws of physics are no respecter of persons, they treat the good man and the bad man equally. Moreover, the universe behaves like a mindless machine, and exhibits no intelligent action of its own accord, and there are no messages or features of a linguistic nature anywhere in its extra-human composition or behavior, such as we would expect if a thinking person had designed it and wanted to communicate with us.
Christians attempt to preserve their proposed theory by moving it into the set of unprovables that lack all evidence. They do this arbitrarily, and for no other reason than to save the proposed theory, by creating impassable barriers to observation, just as requiring us to look in every corner of every universe creates an impassable barrier for one who is asked to decisively disprove the statement "there are big green Martians." For instance, the advanced theory holds that God alleviates suffering in heaven, which we conveniently cannot observe, and he has reasons for waiting and allowing suffering to persist on Earth, reasons which are also suitably unobservable to us, because God chooses not to explain them, just as he chooses, again for an unstated reason that is entirely inscrutable, to remain utterly invisible to all my senses, external and internal, despite being always around and inside me and otherwise capable of speaking to me plainly.
The problem is not, as some theists think, that we can find no explanations to "rationalize" a god in this world of hurt. I can imagine numerous gods who would be morally justified and even admirable, and others who would be neither evil nor good, and still others who are evil, but none of these would be the Christian god. The fact is that Christianity is the proposal of a theory, and like all theories, it entails predictions--but these predictions are not being born out. So Christians invent excuses to save the theory--excuses which have absolutely no basis in any evidence or inference, except the sole fact that they rescue the theory. This is Ptolemy's epicycles all over again: the motions of the planets and sun refused to fit the theory that they all revolve around the Earth, so Ptolemy invented numerous complex patterns of motion that had no particular reason to happen other than the fact that they rescue the theory of geocentricity. It is simply far wiser to conclude that instead of this monstrously complex and bizarre architecture of groundless saving suppositions, it makes far more sense, and uses far fewer suppositions, to simply admit that the universe doesn't revolve around the Earth after all. As for all the other theories--all the other possible gods--there is no more evidence for them than for this incredibly complex deity with a dozen strange and mysterious reasons that only too conveniently explain why we never observe him or his actions in any clear way.
Of course, even these groundless "solutions" to the Christian 'theory' do not really save the theory, because, to maintain it, at some point you must abandon belief in God's omnipotence--since at every turn, God is forced to do something (to remain hidden and to wait before alleviating suffering, etc.) by some unknown feature of reality, and this entails that some feature of reality is more powerful than God. And this feature cannot merely be God's moral nature, since if that were his only limitation, there would then be no barrier to his speaking to me or acting immediately to alleviate suffering or designing the universe to have overtly moral or linguistic features, since any truly moral nature would compel, not prevent, such behavior. Thus, the Christian hypothesis is either incoherent or improvable, and in the one case, it is necessarily false, while in the other it lacks justification, so we have no reason to believe it, any more than we have a reason to believe that there is a big green Martian on some planet in some corner of some universe.


How's your little boy, scumbag? :fu:

DLR'sCock
11-21-2004, 05:00 PM
I don't hate religion, I think it can serve very good purposes at times, but I just don't know if any religion is actually the "truth"....

Mulaka
11-21-2004, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
How's your little boy, scumbag? :fu:

Fuck you VHLINK pussy!

Seshmeister
11-21-2004, 09:47 PM
Mulaka that was very difficult to read without proper paragraphing.

aesop
11-22-2004, 12:33 AM
Mulaka -

To say you are an atheist because you have problems with Christians is like saying you don't believe in transportation because you hate rollerskates. For example, nearly all religions acknowledge that there is a 'God', not just Judeo-Christians. For that matter, even Satanists acknowledge that God exists...

Switch84
11-22-2004, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by aesop
Mulaka -

To say you are an atheist because you have problems with Christians is like saying you don't believe in transportation because you hate rollerskates. For example, nearly all religions acknowledge that there is a 'God', not just Judeo-Christians. For that matter, even Satanists acknowledge that God exists...


:D Kewl! Christianity, Judism and Islam have more in common than most realize. We all have the same roots. It's just more popular to mock Christians now.

I don't like peas. Others do. I'm not going on a hate campaign against people that eat them.

BigBadBrian
11-22-2004, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Mulaka
Fuck you VHLINK pussy!


Here's some interesting reading on this Mulaka character if anybody is interested on what kind of person he is:

This guy is the ultimate human trash. (http://www.vhlinks.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB12&Number=671193&page=6&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=1)

Nickdfresh
11-22-2004, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Here's some interesting reading on this Mulaka character if anybody is interested on what kind of person he is:

This guy is the ultimate human trash. (http://www.vhlinks.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB12&Number=671193&page=6&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=1)

Clear this up for me BigBad because this Mulaka ramables on like an insane homeless person. Did he lie about his wife and kid getting killed in an accident to "punk people" or to get attention?:confused:

Switch84
11-22-2004, 01:09 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Clear this up for me BigBad because this Mulaka ramables on like an insane homeless person. Did he lie about his wife and kid getting killed in an accident to "punk people" or to get attention?:confused:


:mad: If he did, that's pretty fucking LOW!

Seshmeister
11-22-2004, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Switch84
:D Kewl! Christianity, Judism and Islam have more in common than most realize. We all have the same roots. It's just more popular to mock Christians now.

I don't like peas. Others do. I'm not going on a hate campaign against people that eat them.

I'm happy to mock them all...;)

Did you know Mohammad was a pedophile?

Nickdfresh
11-22-2004, 01:30 PM
Originally posted by Mulaka
I don't believe in God. I have, however, witnessed the supernatural. I believe in supernatural aspects that provide proof....like what I have witnessed. The Christian God and his religion is ridiculous. Why? Well, christian Theism in its most basic sense entails observations that would necessarily be made by everyone everywhere and at all times, and thus it is as easily disproven...

I'm sort of an agnostic myself, but this sounds like a lot of self-nullifying sophist bullshit.

BigBadBrian
11-22-2004, 01:50 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Clear this up for me BigBad because this Mulaka ramables on like an insane homeless person. Did he lie about his wife and kid getting killed in an accident to "punk people" or to get attention?:confused:


Take your pick. Either way, a sick joke. In the end, he's the punk. :gulp:

Nickdfresh
11-22-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Take your pick. Either way, a sick joke. In the end, he's the punk. :gulp:

He does sound like a self-important, attention-whore douche. I picked that up in his rambling God article.

Switch84
11-22-2004, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
I'm happy to mock them all...;)

Did you know Mohammad was a pedophile?


:p Yep. something about those '72 virgins' I presume. They had to be little girls, the sick fuck.

Seshmeister
11-22-2004, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Switch84
:p Yep. something about those '72 virgins' I presume. They had to be little girls, the sick fuck.

Mohammed's admiring Muslim biographers Abu Dawud and Tabari both record that in his first year at Medinah after fleeing from Mecca, Mohammed consummated his marriage to Ayisha, a young girl (jariyah) only 9 years old!

Mohammed is the only founder of a major religion who was himself a ruler, conqueror, enslaver, rapist, bandit, polygamist and pedophile.

Of course you could get your head hacked off just for mentioning it in some places these days.

On the other hand at least there is plenty of proof that Mohammed existed unlike JC who is a bit scanty in that area.

Switch84
11-22-2004, 05:24 PM
:eek: Mohammad was a sick fuck, wasn't he?

Ok, two down (Christianity and Islam), one to go, Sesh! Enlighten us on your views on Judaism!

LMAO!

Switch84
11-22-2004, 05:26 PM
:killer: :bananna: :bottle: Holy, SHIT!!! I'm a ROCK STAR!!!!!!!







Hehehehehehheeeeee!

Ally_Kat
11-22-2004, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Here's some interesting reading on this Mulaka character if anybody is interested on what kind of person he is:

This guy is the ultimate human trash. (http://www.vhlinks.com/forums/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=UBB12&Number=671193&page=6&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=1)

OMG SCUM!

How the fuck can anyone even joke that their wife and kid were killed?!

I saw we give Ford full rights to edit his posts :D

Ally_Kat
11-22-2004, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Mulaka
I don't believe in God. I have, however, witnessed the supernatural. I believe in supernatural aspects that provide proof....like what I have witnessed. The Christian God and his religion is ridiculous. Why? Well, christian Theism in its most basic sense entails observations that would necessarily be made by everyone everywhere and at all times, and thus it is as easily disproven as the alien in the bathtub is. For instance, God is theoretically omnipresent, and granted us the ability to know him (to feel his loving presence, etc.), yet I have absolutely no sensation of any God or anything that would be entailed by a God, even though by definition he is within me and around me wherever I go. Likewise, God is theoretically the epitome of compassion, and also all-knowing and all-powerful and beyond all injury, yet I know that what demonstrates someone as compassionate is the alleviation of all suffering known to them and safely within their power to alleviate. All suffering in the world must be known and safely within the power of God to alleviate, yet it is still there, and since the Christian 'theory' entails the opposite observation, Christianity is false. Likewise, God theoretically designed the universe for a moral purpose, but the universe lacks moral features--animals thrive by survival of the fittest, not survival of the kindest, and the laws of physics are no respecter of persons, they treat the good man and the bad man equally. Moreover, the universe behaves like a mindless machine, and exhibits no intelligent action of its own accord, and there are no messages or features of a linguistic nature anywhere in its extra-human composition or behavior, such as we would expect if a thinking person had designed it and wanted to communicate with us.
Christians attempt to preserve their proposed theory by moving it into the set of unprovables that lack all evidence. They do this arbitrarily, and for no other reason than to save the proposed theory, by creating impassable barriers to observation, just as requiring us to look in every corner of every universe creates an impassable barrier for one who is asked to decisively disprove the statement "there are big green Martians." For instance, the advanced theory holds that God alleviates suffering in heaven, which we conveniently cannot observe, and he has reasons for waiting and allowing suffering to persist on Earth, reasons which are also suitably unobservable to us, because God chooses not to explain them, just as he chooses, again for an unstated reason that is entirely inscrutable, to remain utterly invisible to all my senses, external and internal, despite being always around and inside me and otherwise capable of speaking to me plainly.
The problem is not, as some theists think, that we can find no explanations to "rationalize" a god in this world of hurt. I can imagine numerous gods who would be morally justified and even admirable, and others who would be neither evil nor good, and still others who are evil, but none of these would be the Christian god. The fact is that Christianity is the proposal of a theory, and like all theories, it entails predictions--but these predictions are not being born out. So Christians invent excuses to save the theory--excuses which have absolutely no basis in any evidence or inference, except the sole fact that they rescue the theory. This is Ptolemy's epicycles all over again: the motions of the planets and sun refused to fit the theory that they all revolve around the Earth, so Ptolemy invented numerous complex patterns of motion that had no particular reason to happen other than the fact that they rescue the theory of geocentricity. It is simply far wiser to conclude that instead of this monstrously complex and bizarre architecture of groundless saving suppositions, it makes far more sense, and uses far fewer suppositions, to simply admit that the universe doesn't revolve around the Earth after all. As for all the other theories--all the other possible gods--there is no more evidence for them than for this incredibly complex deity with a dozen strange and mysterious reasons that only too conveniently explain why we never observe him or his actions in any clear way.
Of course, even these groundless "solutions" to the Christian 'theory' do not really save the theory, because, to maintain it, at some point you must abandon belief in God's omnipotence--since at every turn, God is forced to do something (to remain hidden and to wait before alleviating suffering, etc.) by some unknown feature of reality, and this entails that some feature of reality is more powerful than God. And this feature cannot merely be God's moral nature, since if that were his only limitation, there would then be no barrier to his speaking to me or acting immediately to alleviate suffering or designing the universe to have overtly moral or linguistic features, since any truly moral nature would compel, not prevent, such behavior. Thus, the Christian hypothesis is either incoherent or improvable, and in the one case, it is necessarily false, while in the other it lacks justification, so we have no reason to believe it, any more than we have a reason to believe that there is a big green Martian on some planet in some corner of some universe.

Um...you forgot this part of the website --

Copyright 1999. Copying is freely permitted, provided credit is given to the author, and no material herein may be sold for profit.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/richard_carrier/theory.html

He copied starting from The Unbelievability of Christian Theism on and the author is Richard Carrier.

At least credit the source, scum. Not doing so is plagerism, especially when you post it as you did. ;)

Switch84
11-22-2004, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Ally_Kat
He copied starting from The Unbelievability of Christian Theism on and the author is Richard Carrier.

At least credit the source, scum. Not doing so is plagerism, especially when you post it as you did. ;)

:D Good call, Ally! This guy really IS a shithead!

Nickdfresh
11-22-2004, 09:46 PM
Originally posted by Switch84
:D Good call, Ally! This guy really IS a shithead!

I had a feeling this guy was a tool.

Ally_Kat
11-22-2004, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Switch84
:D Good call, Ally! This guy really IS a shithead!

After seeing his posting style in the thread Brian linked, I knew that it wasn't his work.

I mean, it's one thing to quote or post something as an idea you agree with, but to blatantly plagiarize something that is being said as your opinion to look uber smart for the God folk...tsk tsk tsk

:D

Altho the article came across, to me, as if Christianity follows the suit that we are all God's puppets. How come the original author never hit the deal with free will? The problem is choice :p

BigBadBrian
11-22-2004, 11:34 PM
Originally posted by Ally_Kat
After seeing his posting style in the thread Brian linked, I knew that it wasn't his work.

I mean, it's one thing to quote or post something as an idea you agree with, but to blatantly plagiarize something that is being said as your opinion to look uber smart for the God folk...tsk tsk tsk

:D

Altho the article came across, to me, as if Christianity follows the suit that we are all God's puppets. How come the original author never hit the deal with free will? The problem is choice :p

He also claimed to be a Marine with Force Recon in Gulf War I. He now says he's an attorney. Read his posts. He writes like an eighth grader. He's a fraud all the way around. :gulp:

Pink Spider
11-22-2004, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Ally_Kat
Altho the article came across, to me, as if Christianity follows the suit that we are all God's puppets. How come the original author never hit the deal with free will? The problem is choice :p

But, wouldn't everything be "God's will" if the deity was truly in control over anything at all? Obviously, the question is why would a perfect being give free will when it could just make everyone moral and be done with the whole mess? This would be the same god that would have thought up the ideas of murder, rape and war after appearing out of nothingness. ;)

Ally_Kat
11-23-2004, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by Pink Spider
But, wouldn't everything be "God's will" if the deity was truly in control over anything at all? Obviously, the question is why would a perfect being give free will when it could just make everyone moral and be done with the whole mess? This would be the same god that would have thought up the ideas of murder, rape and war after appearing out of nothingness. ;)

Which would you prefer, a bunch of zombies worshiping you or smiting people who talked shit all those years? I'd go with the smiting cuz I'm evil like that :D

Personally speaking just, I think that life is a learning experience. I do think there is something after this life and being that we are put here before there, whatever there may be, makes me think that we aren't ready when starting out to be there -- kinda like this free will conscious deal not only help define who we will be but helps prepare us for something over there. And I also don't think that there is a one-religion only club. I mean, in all seriousness, most religions and cultures have the same basic moral structures dealing with murder, stealing, and all that. The punishment might not be the same, but similar things were views as problems, for lack of a bettter word. I think there's something up with that. Either a large part of the population across the globe had the same crazy tendancies during evolution or something was set for us. But that goes into my whole Tower of Babel theory that everyone thinks I'm crazy for (like they don't have other stuff to use in order to label me that ;) :D)

But now that I've babbled and bored the masses --

yeah, I think it's because it means more if people choose it rather than just do it because this deity waves his/her hand and makes it so.

Seshmeister
11-23-2004, 07:02 AM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
He also claimed to be a Marine with Force Recon in Gulf War I. He now says he's an attorney. Read his posts. He writes like an eighth grader. He's a fraud all the way around. :gulp:

Half of me found the fake death thread pretty funny given how obviously fake it was.

Reading 10 pages of Linkers wailing and crying followed by 5 pages of them saying they knew it was a troll all along...:)

Nickdfresh
11-23-2004, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
Half of me found the fake death thread pretty funny given how obviously fake it was.

Reading 10 pages of Linkers wailing and crying followed by 5 pages of them saying they knew it was a troll all along...:)

I couldn't get the rest of those pages! I must suck at the internet. But that's such a shitty troll thing to do.

I liked Hitch1969's going into a alimony support chat room and telling the women there that he had nine kids with four different girlfriends and didn't feel he should have to pay for any of them despite the fact he owned his own construction company. The responses were really funny.:D