Economic 'Armageddon' predicted

[Pink Spider]

Boston Herald | November 24 2004

http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=55356

Stephen Roach, the chief economist at investment banking giant Morgan Stanley, has a public reputation for being bearish.

But you should hear what he's saying in private.

Roach met select groups of fund managers downtown last week, including a group at Fidelity.

His prediction: America has no better than a 10 percent chance of avoiding economic ``armageddon.''

Press were not allowed into the meetings. But the Herald has obtained a copy of Roach's presentation. A stunned source who was at one meeting said, ``it struck me how extreme he was - much more, it seemed to me, than in public.''

Roach sees a 30 percent chance of a slump soon and a 60 percent chance that ``we'll muddle through for a while and delay the eventual armageddon.''

The chance we'll get through OK: one in 10. Maybe.

In a nutshell, Roach's argument is that America's record trade deficit means the dollar will keep falling. To keep foreigners buying T-bills and prevent a resulting rise in inflation, Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan will be forced to raise interest rates further and faster than he wants.

The result: U.S. consumers, who are in debt up to their eyeballs, will get pounded.

Less a case of ``Armageddon,'' maybe, than of a ``Perfect Storm.''

Roach marshalled alarming facts to support his argument.

To finance its current account deficit with the rest of the world, he said, America has to import $2.6 billion in cash. Every working day.

That is an amazing 80 percent of the entire world's net savings.

Sustainable? Hardly.

Meanwhile, he notes that household debt is at record levels.

Twenty years ago the total debt of U.S. households was equal to half the size of the economy.

Today the figure is 85 percent.

Nearly half of new mortgage borrowing is at flexible interest rates, leaving borrowers much more vulnerable to rate hikes.

Americans are already spending a record share of disposable income paying their interest bills. And interest rates haven't even risen much yet.

You don't have to ask a Wall Street economist to know this, of course. Watch people wielding their credit cards this Christmas.

Roach's analysis isn't entirely new. But recent events give it extra force.

The dollar is hitting fresh lows against currencies from the yen to the euro.

Its parachute failed to open over the weekend, when a meeting of the world's top finance ministers produced no promise of concerted intervention.

It has farther to fall, especially against Asian currencies, analysts agree.

The Fed chairman was drawn to warn on the dollar, and interest rates, on Friday.

Roach could not be reached for comment yesterday. A source who heard the presentation concluded that a ``spectacular wave of bankruptcies'' is possible.

Smart people downtown agree with much of the analysis. It is undeniable that America is living in a ``debt bubble'' of record proportions.

But they argue there may be an alternative scenario to Roach's. Greenspan might instead deliberately allow the dollar to slump and inflation to rise, whittling away at the value of today's consumer debts in real terms.

Inflation of 7 percent a year halves ``real'' values in a decade.

It may be the only way out of the trap.

Higher interest rates, or higher inflation: Either way, the biggest losers will be long-term lenders at fixed interest rates.

You wouldn't want to hold 30-year Treasuries, which today yield just 4.83 percent.

[sambo]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
Boston Herald | November 24 2004

http://business.bostonherald.com/businessNews/view.bg?articleid=55356

But they argue there may be an alternative scenario to Roach's. Greenspan might instead deliberately allow the dollar to slump and inflation to rise, whittling away at the value of today's consumer debts in real terms.

Inflation of 7 percent a year halves real'' values in a decade.

It may be the only way out of the trap.

That's been done before... Germany, after the war, let inflation spiral upward and it virtually wiped out all debt.

[FORD]

Thanks for waiting until AFTER THE ELECTION to mention the economic failures of the BCE, Steve. :asshole:

[ELVIS]

This has nothing to do with your makebelieve "BCE"...

[FORD]

No, of course not. Record deficits, insane spending, and tax cuts to people who don't pay taxes have no impact on the economy at all. What could I have been thinking?

Between another Hitler and another Great Depression (or worse) those of you who still have living grandparents might want to take notes on just how shitty of a time we're in for :(

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by FORD
Between another Hitler and another Great Depression (or worse) those of you who still have living grandparents might want to take notes on just how shitty of a time we're in for :(


The fun thing would be if the depression makes the people in America so weak that we can't do anything against gw&friends. The stupid amongst us will beg for his help while he cruises in his yacht.

[blueturk]

Dubya had to take geography lessons from Condi Rice,Dick Cheney,and George Schultz when he was elected in 2000.You would think that he might have absorbed some knowledge of foreign affairs from his father,but it's painfully evident that this is not the case.
Keeping that in mind,do you really expect for Dubya to have any realistic perspective about money?He's coasted through life,pretty much doing as he pleases,and he's taking the same approach with the budget.

[Big Train]

Yadda Yadda Yadda....

All Bush talk aside (we can talk about that latter), this genius ENTIRELY fails to mention the fact that this a WORLD economy. Meaning that if our levels hit too low, other economies, namely Europe and the Far East will take a huge hit as well. WHY? Cause we buy their goods and services. As the world's largest consumer, if all of that dries up all of a sudden, goodnight yen and Euro.

This is alarmist nonsense, as is most of this "crisis"....Bullshit...

[blueturk]

The US collected about the same amount of taxes in 2004 as it did in in 1999,but we spent 34 per cent more.The total national debt has risen 30 per cent in the last four years.The 7.384 TRILLION dollar debt limit was breached in October.This is nothing less than a fiscal orgy.Now we are about to bring in thousands of "illegal immigrants" to do "the jobs Americans won't do",whatever that means.I can understand your reluctance to discuss Dubya,but it's obvious that the man doesn't have a clue.

[Big Train]

I'm not reluctant at all and I appreciate your invitation. I just wanted to make the point that all this alarmist stuff is pure bullshit, by using pure economic sense to disprove it.

The situation with the taxes has primarily to do with the war and the trade defecit. We aren't collecting as much in taxes because not enough trade is going on. When goods and services don't move, there is nothing to tax.

The war and Homeland security are the newest large burdens on our tax system. I don't feel that there is anything wrong with the system or even Dubya's tax policies themselves, it's that we aren't moving enough stuff period. It's just funny to me that people blame bush, "Anybody But Bush" has morphed into "It's Bushes Fault". Yet, whenever discussing money, never a single solitary fucking word about Greenspan, the primary source of our fiscal policy. NOT ONE. There obviously need to be cuts made somewhere.

My REAL solution is to make one small change to the way our Congress operates. No adding on to bills. If a bill goes to a vote about road construction in Colorado, it should not have an attachment about schoolbooks in Oklahoma. This is where the "bloat" comes from that makes senators "scratch each other's backs" and generally the only way to get things done across party lines. I don't appreciate that either party does it.

[ODShowtime]

he's a bum too

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train
I'm not reluctant at all and I appreciate your invitation. I just wanted to make the point that all this alarmist stuff is pure bullshit, by using pure economic sense to disprove it.

The situation with the taxes has primarily to do with the war and the trade defecit. We aren't collecting as much in taxes because not enough trade is going on. When goods and services don't move, there is nothing to tax.

The war and Homeland security are the newest large burdens on our tax system. I don't feel that there is anything wrong with the system or even Dubya's tax policies themselves, it's that we aren't moving enough stuff period. It's just funny to me that people blame bush, "Anybody But Bush" has morphed into "It's Bushes Fault". Yet, whenever discussing money, never a single solitary fucking word about Greenspan, the primary source of our fiscal policy. NOT ONE. There obviously need to be cuts made somewhere.

My REAL solution is to make one small change to the way our Congress operates. No adding on to bills. If a bill goes to a vote about road construction in Colorado, it should not have an attachment about schoolbooks in Oklahoma. This is where the "bloat" comes from that makes senators "scratch each other's backs" and generally the only way to get things done across party lines. I don't appreciate that either party does it.

The pork that you speak of is only a small part of the problem.Dubya's corporate tax cuts will deprive the government of roughly $100 billion in future revenues,and we all know that someone making $200,000 a year is taxed less percentage-wise than someone who makes $40,000 a year.Of course,there was that "rebate" check check a while back,and I've talked to people who were ecstatic that they received a check for $300.Give me a fucking break!Dubya's "base" would use a $300 check for toilet paper.These aren't Greenspan's tax cuts,these are Dubya's.Bush is blatantly looking after his own kind,at the expense of the working stiff that will have to pay for this shit in the future.

[ELVIS]

Not true...

[Big Train]

A very Democratic way to look at the argument. He is trying to stimulate the economy as a whole. What is it we are really arguing here?

The plight of the working stiff? That is a different argument.

We are in a depression right now that has nothing to do with George Bush. It is the remains of an overheated economy that burst in 2000, before he was there. I NEVER say that it was Bushes fault, or Clinton's, or Bush Sr or Reagan. No one man or administration has that great an effect on the economy. They can make certain things harder or easier, but the economy works under it's own ways. We are in a depression and trying to battle out of it.

This statement I didn't know and I'd love to know where you got the following fact :

We all know that someone making $200,000 a year is taxed less percentage-wise than someone who makes $40,000 a year.

Why so reluctant to discuss Greenspan?

[blueturk]

I'm listening.....

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train


I don't feel that there is anything wrong with the system or even Dubya's tax policies themselves, .



Wha???????????????????


BT, seriously.

You're bright, articulate, and pretty damn well informned

NOTHING WRONG WITH SHRUBS TAX POLICIES?

Jesus H Christ.

I need a drink

[Big Train]

Have a drink on me. I don't think it's the policies, I think it is the execution.

Taxes are raised on goods and services being sold. If those goods and services arent sold, there are no taxes. The problem with this economy is two fold and it falls more on the "working stiff". Excessive debt and lack of dominating industries. America doesn't do shit anymore. We don't dominate anything in particular and we don't make much. We are an intelluctal property economy and those ideas are rarely protected (I'm in the music business, nobody IN THIS COUNTRY gives a fuck about our intellectual property). With nothing tangible to do or sell, we are having problems getting things moving again. You don't create new industries however, by taxing those who finance the new industries.

I will throw you a bone however. I did say nothing is wrong with his TAX policies, but I do have a problem with his Immigration policies as it relates to taxes (after my first cup of java). The problem with mexican workers isn't that they take away jobs, it's that the tax base they create isn't enough to offset costs (something we know a great deal about in So cal). So there, I disagree with him there. Happy?

[blueturk]

[i]

This statement I didn't know and I'd love to know where you got the following fact :

We all know that someone making $200,000 a year is taxed less percentage-wise than someone who makes $40,000 a year.

Why so reluctant to discuss Greenspan? [/B]

[blueturk]

[i] by BIG TRAIN

This statement I didn't know and I'd love to know where you got the following fact :

We all know that someone making $200,000 a year is taxed less percentage-wise than someone who makes $40,000 a year.

Why so reluctant to discuss Greenspan? [/B]

[blueturk]

[i] by BIG TRAIN

This statement I didn't know and I'd love to know where you got the following fact :

We all know that someone making $200,000 a year is taxed less percentage-wise than someone who makes $40,000 a year.

[/B]

OK,I was wrong.Actually someone pulling in $203,700 will get 59.9% of the new tax cuts,raising their income by 3.3%.Somebody making $38,100 will get 8.3% of the cut,raising their income by 2.2%.I won't even start on the top 1% who will get 70 TIMES the tax cut that the middle fifth will get.And PLEASE don't tell me that this money will trickle down to ME.As for the immigration policies,I think a LOT of people (pro and anti-Bush) are scratching their heads and wondering what's up.And don't ask me how I ended up posting 3 times either.Sorry about that!

[ELVIS]

You people need to learn how to quote...

[blueturk]

Originally posted by ELVIS
You people need to learn how to quote...


Nobody's perfect....

[ELVIS]

:D

[BIG GOOSE]

Originally posted by FORD
Thanks for waiting until AFTER THE ELECTION to mention the economic failures of the BCE, Steve. :asshole:

It's been out there for ages just the mainstream press couldn't give a shit 'til now.

[Big Train]

This is whats wrong with America financially:

From an AP story this morning on Wal Mart's opening early..


By the time Wal-Mart's store in a Buffalo, N.Y. suburb of Hamburg opened its doors at 6 a.m., 1,000 people had formed a lined that spanned the entire store front, despite temperatures of 31 degrees.

"It's our tradition," said Ruth Pompeo, of Lackawanna, N.Y, who was up at 3 a.m. and in line by 4:30 a.m. with her 11-year-old niece Shelby Strack. "I don't know what I'm here to grab, actually, " she said. "Whatever I can."

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train
This is whats wrong with America financially:

From an AP story this morning on Wal Mart's opening early..


By the time Wal-Mart's store in a Buffalo, N.Y. suburb of Hamburg opened its doors at 6 a.m., 1,000 people had formed a lined that spanned the entire store front, despite temperatures of 31 degrees.

"It's our tradition," said Ruth Pompeo, of Lackawanna, N.Y, who was up at 3 a.m. and in line by 4:30 a.m. with her 11-year-old niece Shelby Strack. "I don't know what I'm here to grab, actually, " she said. "Whatever I can."

I don't think that this admittedly empty-headed individual is representative of everybody who goes through this ritual.Some people are just on tight budgets and need the big discounts that can only be found at an ungodly hour on the day after Thanksgiving.

[Cathedral]

The sky is falling, the sky is falling!

I live within my budget, finally, and i am able to save money after all my bills are paid...In my opinion we have it much better than any era before us.
Also, tax cuts put more money in the consumers pockets which in turn allows them to spend more, which keeps the machine rolling.

But nothing lasts forever, so prepare for hard times as in the past, they will surely come again.

[FORD]

Originally posted by BIG GOOSE
It's been out there for ages just the mainstream press couldn't give a shit 'til now.

Exactly.... and the fact that you know more about Bush's failures in Sydney Australia than the Busheep in the US do is proof enough of that.

You must still have a free press down under. Don't let Murdoch buy any more of it!

[FORD]

Originally posted by Big Train
This is whats wrong with America financially:

From an AP story this morning on Wal Mart's opening early..


By the time Wal-Mart's store in a Buffalo, N.Y. suburb of Hamburg opened its doors at 6 a.m., 1,000 people had formed a lined that spanned the entire store front, despite temperatures of 31 degrees.

"It's our tradition," said Ruth Pompeo, of Lackawanna, N.Y, who was up at 3 a.m. and in line by 4:30 a.m. with her 11-year-old niece Shelby Strack. "I don't know what I'm here to grab, actually, " she said. "Whatever I can."

Won't get any argument from me about Wal Mart sucking. Aside from Halliburton, they're probably the most vile corporation on the planet.

As far as the Black Friday shopping nightmare itself, that's become as much of a holiday tradition as turkey itself. Not that I endorse it, and sure as Hell don't participate - in fact you will not find me anywhere near a mall on the weekends anytime between now and the middle of January - but enough people do to keep the practice a viable one.

Actually, in communities where something other than Wal Mart exists, Black Friday is probably a benefit to the local economy, since the benefits of 3-5 extra hours of morning business will also bleed over into gas stations, fast food joints that serve breakfast, and even cops who are usually bored shitless at 5:00 AM, now get to ticket speeders trying to get to the mall before anyone else.

All of which contributes tax revenue of course. So though I despise the whole idea of the day personally, I can't say Black Friday's bad for the economy.

[Big Train]

To me, it just reminds me of all that I don't like. People talk about how strapped they are and how the working man gets stiffed, then you see something like that. Most of them probably drove there in SUV's, getting 10 MPG, bought big ticket items on credit cards @ 18% and usually much worse and will be paying off this morning of gluttony for the rest of the year. No planning ahead, no budgeting. I watched a program on PBS the other night on credit cards. The avg. American family has 8K in credit card debt. The average American family has 90% of their net worth leveraed. BY way of comparision, the average Russian has just 20 dollars of debt and the average chinese 200 dollars. This lack of debt is helping to fuel their economy. It's a cash and carry economy, but as long as they can keep working and retain their cash, the need to consume will continue. We as a nation need a serious lesson in financial planning and restraint.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
This is whats wrong with America financially:

From an AP story this morning on Wal Mart's opening early..


By the time Wal-Mart's store in a Buffalo, N.Y. suburb of Hamburg opened its doors at 6 a.m., 1,000 people had formed a lined that spanned the entire store front, despite temperatures of 31 degrees.

"It's our tradition," said Ruth Pompeo, of Lackawanna, N.Y, who was up at 3 a.m. and in line by 4:30 a.m. with her 11-year-old niece Shelby Strack. "I don't know what I'm here to grab, actually, " she said. "Whatever I can."

I sometimes shop there and I hate that fucking store. Shit in the isles, you can't get around stuff and people, a very poorly designed store.

[blueturk]

Your disdain for the working stiff is showing.I was at K-Mart at 5:15 to buy a trampoline for my kids for half price,which was only available from 6:00 am to 11:00 am.,and they only had ONE.I didn't drive an SUV and I didn't charge it.God knows I didn't want to be there,but I saved probably $100,if not more.What's gluttonous about that? As I recall,you are not exactly a "working stiff",being in A & R,and I don't begrudge you that.It's just that like your president,you are totally out of touch with the average American.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Cathedral


I live within my budget, finally, and i am able to save money after all my bills are paid.

The problem is that Bush doesn't and is pissing money away all over the place.

There is no global depression just in the US at the moment.

I can get $1.85 for a UK pound just now, it used to be $1.45.

As a previous post said if the US goes into freefall it brings the rest of us down too.

I dunno it's all pretty confusing. If you get 10 macro economists in a room you get 11 different opinions but common sense says that wasting 100s of billions on a stupid war as well as a bunch of other stupid projects while at the same time cutting taxes is all going to end in tears.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by blueturk
Your disdain for the working stiff is showing.I was at K-Mart at 5:15 to buy a trampoline for my kids for half price,which was only available from 6:00 am to 11:00 am.,and they only had ONE.I didn't drive an SUV and I didn't charge it.God knows I didn't want to be there,but I saved probably $100,if not more.What's gluttonous about that? As I recall,you are not exactly a "working stiff",being in A & R,and I don't begrudge you that.It's just that like your president,you are totally out of touch with the average American.

Fucking hell.This was a response to Big Train.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train

This is whats wrong with America financially:

From an AP story this morning on Wal Mart's opening early..


By the time Wal-Mart's store in a Buffalo, N.Y. suburb of Hamburg opened its doors at 6 a.m., 1,000 people had formed a lined that spanned the entire store front, despite temperatures of 31 degrees.

"It's our tradition," said Ruth Pompeo, of Lackawanna, N.Y, who was up at 3 a.m. and in line by 4:30 a.m. with her 11-year-old niece Shelby Strack. "I don't know what I'm here to grab, actually, " she said. "Whatever I can."



I sometimes shop there and I hate that fucking store. Shit in the isles, you can't get around stuff and people, a very poorly designed store.

When I say I shop at that store, I don't mean Walmart in general, I mean I literally have shopped at that Hamburg Walmart store. And it really does suck even more than your average Walmart.

[Switch84]

:D Wal-Mart. YUCK! I'm a Target grrl, actually.

Ok, all joking aside, could any of you Kerry fans tell me how a fat cat fellow Yale boy with the Ketchup Queen as his wife be more in tune with the so-called "Little People"?

What goes up, must come down, and we were riding at incredible highs during the Slick Willie years. Towards the end of his 'reign' is when it began to slip (unnoticed) by the masses.

We're just going to have to tell little Dick & Jane that they can't have the Xboxes and Timberlands they want for Christmas. It's time to 'batten down the hatches' and ride this storm out.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by blueturk
Your disdain for the working stiff is showing.I was at K-Mart at 5:15 to buy a trampoline for my kids for half price,which was only available from 6:00 am to 11:00 am.,and they only had ONE.I didn't drive an SUV and I didn't charge it.God knows I didn't want to be there,but I saved probably $100,if not more.What's gluttonous about that? As I recall,you are not exactly a "working stiff",being in A & R,and I don't begrudge you that.It's just that like your president,you are totally out of touch with the average American.

Blue, try not to take this personally, but fuck you. I come from a working class family from Boston. I am the youngest of 7 children. My father worked three manual labor jobs EVERYDAY for 27 years to provide for us. I starting working for my own money when I was 8 and have never looked back. I got to where I am by taking my own advice (even though somehow common sense makes me "out of touch" with the working stiff. I don't work in an ivory tower and my job is not as glamorous as people try to make it out to be,nor does it pay as well).

If your taking what I said about customers at WalMart personally and it doesn't apply, great. You are the exception that proves the rule. I say it not out of disdain for the working stiff, but because I care about them. What they are doing is self-defeating. If pointing it out is wrong, then so be it.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by Seshmeister


There is no global depression just in the US at the moment.

As a previous post said if the US goes into freefall it brings the rest of us down too.

If you get 10 macro economists in a room you get 11 different opinions but common sense says that wasting 100s of billions on a stupid war as well as a bunch of other stupid projects while at the same time cutting taxes is all going to end in tears. [/B]

This is the whole reason this argument is stupid. Any of our creditors will rework the arrangements in order to keep goods flowing into this country. If you fucks (meaning Europe pal, not you personally) bought some shit to begin with, the defecit wouldn't be so bad. THis is a world economy and if you guys can't sell to us, cause we can't afford to buy, your fucked too. So you guys will help stabilize us, the same way we have for you for years. Which makes this whole article pointless to begin with. He is probably talking crazy to drive prices down and make a killing himself is my guess (the guy in the article).

THe war is certainly a drain on the economy (although historically wars actually have BOOSTED the economy-back when we made shit). However, I disagree. Raising taxes does nothing ever but slow the economy.

[Nickdfresh]

So I guess the business cycle that hasn't seen a real depression in about 50-55 years can never see another one?

[Big Train]

Who said that?

[blueturk]

Speaking of Wal-Mart... http://news.foot.com/cms/s/40804c8c-4172-11d9-9dd8-00000e2511c8.html (news.foot.com/cms/s/40804c8c-4172-11d9-9dd8-00000e2511c8.html)

[blueturk]

Let's try that again...http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?...

[blueturk]

Son of a bitch!!!! Anyway,Wal-Mart's sales were not that great Friday. Fuck!!!

[FORD]

Maybe we're seeing a WalMart backlash? I sure as Hell hope so. If there was ever a company that deserved a backlash, it would be them.

While I can sympathize with those who shop there out of a lack of any practical alternative, the reasons WHY that is the case are where the problem lies. The typical WalMart plan is to build in or near the core of a small town and drive the local stores out of business, because they can't possibly match Wal Mart's volume buying power, and therefore, can't match their retail prices.

Sometimes they're even more pathetic. First time Wal Mart attempted a store here they wanted to evict a trailer court populated primarily by senior citizens, just so they could be exactly half way between the K-Mart and the Shopko, and close enough to the proposed Target store (which has since been built).

In addition to the just plain shitty business practice of evicting old people (who might otherwise be your customers) the property in question also happenned to be in one of the worst traffic zones in town, on a street that didn't even have center turn lanes at the time.

The old folks won, thank God, and eventually Hell-Mart managed to put in a store on the eastern extremities of town. I've never set foot in the store, and don't plan on it. And not just because there are other businesses much closer. I just can't reward them for being shitty corporate "citizens"

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by FORD
Maybe we're seeing a WalMart backlash? I sure as Hell hope so. If there was ever a company that deserved a backlash, it would be them.

While I can sympathize with those who shop there out of a lack of any practical alternative, the reasons WHY that is the case are where the problem lies. The typical WalMart plan is to build in or near the core of a small town and drive the local stores out of business, because they can't possibly match Wal Mart's volume buying power, and therefore, can't match their retail prices.

Sometimes they're even more pathetic. First time Wal Mart attempted a store here they wanted to evict a trailer court populated primarily by senior citizens, just so they could be exactly half way between the K-Mart and the Shopko, and close enough to the proposed Target store (which has since been built).

In addition to the just plain shitty business practice of evicting old people (who might otherwise be your customers) the property in question also happenned to be in one of the worst traffic zones in town, on a street that didn't even have center turn lanes at the time.

The old folks won, thank God, and eventually Hell-Mart managed to put in a store on the eastern extremities of town. I've never set foot in the store, and don't plan on it. And not just because there are other businesses much closer. I just can't reward them for being shitty corporate "citizens"

I have my political issues with Walmart. But if you ever happen to go into the Hamburg Walmart store cited by Big Train, you'll realize what a fucking horrid place it is to shop in. The compressed aisles alone make it not worth the "bargains."

Plus, that store is notorious for placing crippled employees at the entrance to show everybody what a charitable company they are hiring cripples as they underpay their workforce and blatantly discriminate against their female staff.

[blueturk]

I'm not too sharp today,but here we go....http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=businessNews&storyID=6933505 About time.

[John Ashcroft]

Heh heh heh..


You guys really need to ween yourselves off the smack!

There was just a record set in consumer spending on the day after Thanksgiving. Something like 8 Billion spent in one day.

Is this part of the Armageddon? I'm confused again... I thought we were all standing in line for the soup kitchen!

[Switch84]

:p Wal-Mart is SHITE! The over-stuffed aisles are across the board, nationwide. I've bought better items at the local dollar store!

The thing I've noticed about Wal-Mart is their Pac Man consumption of the competition. They stock cheaper shit using under-paid employees, forcing the competitin to either catch up or go bust. K-Mart has been a staple of Michigan (and later nationwide) from its beginnings, yet it recently joined forces with another nearly bankrupt company, Sears.

Another Michigan-based Wal-Mart competitor, Meijer, is slowly being erased from the Michigan market. It doesn't have the money the Sam Walton Corp. has and is slowly dying.

When I see the Wal-Mart sheep lining up there, it sickens me.


So much for an economic 'Apocalypse'.......

[ELVIS]

I don't care...

If Walmart has something I need or want at the best price, I'm there...

Same goes for any place that I shop...

[Big Train]

And so goes the "micro" economic argument FOR Walmart vs. the overwhelming "macro" argument AGAINST it.

As a conservative and pro business to the hilt, Wal-Mart is now becoming anti-business and bad for the economy as a whole. Good prices may be great for you in the short term, but what it is taking out of the economy for what it is "giving" doesn't balance out. While I don't feel government regulation is the way to fix the problem, I'm glad to see that their numbers this week were short. There comes a point where "bigger is better" reaches the outer limits of it's upside and wal-mart is quickly finding that out. My hope is that customers keep getting disgusted with it and it comes down like a deck of cards.

[ELVIS]

That may be happening, time will tell...

Either way, the market will adjust itself...

Government regulation will do nothing but pour money on the problem...

[DrMaddVibe]

Ask yourself this...

Do you live above your means? Do you have a nestegg socked away for a "rainy day"?

Basic economics right there. Most Americans are caught up in a world of instant gratification and can't save for what they want. They want it NOW! Their parents finally paid off thier morgage and they want all of the thing they had...NOW! I want a new car...NOW! Who could blame them? They're bombarded every 20 minutes with commercials from everything from a longer lasting love life to a new Cadilliac (insert a shreiking Robert Plant for effect!)! The constant "dumbing down" of America is working and the bankers and fianciers will get theirs again and again. They're counting on personal bankruptcies increasing and people not learning their lesson with it.

Compound that as nation against nation and whammo...Will we have an "Armeggedon"...no. If we turn off the spigot then we will. Replacing the aging Fed Reserve Chairman would be a GREAT thing! His ghost chasing the spectre of inflation caused the most recent economic slowdown singlehandedly! Yet, everyone regards him in high esteem! I wouldn't let that codger near my checkbook or bank account!

In short...stop blaming a system of government or nations for something as basic as self-restraint. A little goes a LONG way!

[FORD]

Assvibe, if you think Greenspan is bad, who exactly do you think the BCE would replace him with that could do better?

How about Neil "Savings and Loan thief" Bush?

[DrMaddVibe]

You insane dribbler. You could do a better job than him!

Stop trying to blame EVERYTHING on Bush.

[FORD]

Funny that nobody complained about Greenspan when Clinton was in the White House and the economy was at unprecedented highs. Now when the Idiot Son of an Asshole drives the entire country into a ditch, it's Greenspan who gets the blame from the right wingers.

So again I ask. In this fraudministration headed by two serial failures who reward other failures (i.e. Condi Rice's promotion) which failure will they appoint to finish the destruction of the American economy?

[DrMaddVibe]

See my last response to your "question".

[Switch84]

;) :p So WHAT my rent may be late? I want tixs to Davy Baby's New Year's Eve gig NOW!


ROFLMMFAOBT!

[BITEYOASS]

Originally posted by Switch84
We're just going to have to tell little Dick & Jane that they can't have the Xboxes and Timberlands they want for Christmas. It's time to 'batten down the hatches' and ride this storm out.

Well if I had kids like Dick & Jane whining about an Xbox and Timberlands, I'd tell them this: "What am I made out of money? Go and play with that deck of cards and pair of dice I gave you last christmas! You should be thankful for having 3 meals everyday you whining little brats!"