Netherlands Hospital Euthanizes Babies

[McCarrens]

Source: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041130/D86MEAA80.html


AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (AP) - A hospital in the Netherlands - the first nation to permit euthanasia - recently proposed guidelines for mercy killings of terminally ill newborns, and then made a startling revelation: It has already begun carrying out such procedures, which include administering a lethal dose of sedatives.

The announcement by the Groningen Academic Hospital came amid a growing discussion in Holland on whether to legalize euthanasia on people incapable of deciding for themselves whether they want to end their lives - a prospect viewed with horror by euthanasia opponents and as a natural evolution by advocates.

In August, the main Dutch doctors' association KNMG urged the Health Ministry to create an independent board to review euthanasia cases for terminally ill people "with no free will," including children, the severely mentally retarded and people left in an irreversible coma after an accident.

The Health Ministry is preparing its response, which could come as soon as December, a spokesman said.

Three years ago, the Dutch parliament made it legal for doctors to inject a sedative and a lethal dose of muscle relaxant at the request of adult patients suffering great pain with no hope of relief.

The Groningen Protocol, as the hospital's guidelines have come to be known, would create a legal framework for permitting doctors to actively end the life of newborns deemed to be in similar pain from incurable disease or extreme deformities.

The guideline says euthanasia is acceptable when the child's medical team and independent doctors agree the pain cannot be eased and there is no prospect for improvement, and when parents think it's best.

Examples include extremely premature births, where children suffer brain damage from bleeding and convulsions; and diseases where a child could only survive on life support for the rest of its life, such as severe cases of spina bifida and epidermosis bullosa, a rare blistering illness.

The hospital revealed last month it carried out four such mercy killings in 2003, and reported all cases to government prosecutors. There have been no legal proceedings against the hospital or the doctors.

Roman Catholic organizations and the Vatican have reacted with outrage to the announcement, and U.S. euthanasia opponents contend the proposal shows the Dutch have lost their moral compass.

"The slippery slope in the Netherlands has descended already into a vertical cliff," said Wesley J. Smith, a prominent California-based critic, in an e-mail to The Associated Press.

Child euthanasia remains illegal everywhere. Experts say doctors outside Holland do not report cases for fear of prosecution.

"As things are, people are doing this secretly and that's wrong," said Eduard Verhagen, head of Groningen's children's clinic. "In the Netherlands we want to expose everything, to let everything be subjected to vetting."

According to the Justice Ministry, four cases of child euthanasia were reported to prosecutors in 2003. Two were reported in 2002, seven in 2001 and five in 2000. All the cases in 2003 were reported by Groningen, but some of the cases in other years were from other hospitals.

Groningen estimated the protocol would be applicable in about 10 cases per year in the Netherlands, a country of 16 million people.

Since the introduction of the Dutch law, Belgium has also legalized euthanasia, while in France, legislation to allow doctor-assisted suicide is currently under debate. In the United States, the state of Oregon is alone in allowing physician-assisted suicide, but this is under constant legal challenge.

However, experts acknowledge that doctors euthanize routinely in the United States and elsewhere, but that the practice is hidden.

"Measures that might marginally extend a child's life by minutes or hours or days or weeks are stopped. This happens routinely, namely, every day," said Lance Stell, professor of medical ethics at Davidson College in Davidson, N.C., and staff ethicist at Carolinas Medical Center in Charlotte, N.C. "Everybody knows that it happens, but there's a lot of hypocrisy. Instead, people talk about things they're not going to do."

More than half of all deaths occur under medical supervision, so it's really about management and method of death, Stell said.

[FORD]

I can think of at least three Dutch adults that should be euthanized ;)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by FORD
I can think of at least three Dutch adults that should be euthanized ;) :D

[McCarrens]

I love how liberals defer the topic away from stuff they know is bad and can't explain by talking about shit that doesn't matter.

I see it everyday on these boards, on the news, talking to people.

Liberals can't defend their position because deep down, in some very deep down, they know they are wrong.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by McCarrens
I love how liberals defer the topic away from stuff they know is bad and can't explain by talking about shit that doesn't matter.

I see it everyday on these boards, on the news, talking to people.

Liberals can't defend their position because deep down, in some very deep down, they know they are wrong.

I love how you leave out the fact that the babies are terminally ill. Maybe they should suffer in agony.

Did you know that the U.S. ranks 27th among industrialized nations in infant mortality? That's among the worst of all industrialized western powers. Yet all you can focus on is your retarded abortion fixation.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I love how you leave out the fact that the babies are terminally ill. Maybe they should suffer in agony.

Did you know that the U.S. ranks 27th among industrialized nations in infant mortality? That's among the worst of all industrialized western powers. Yet all you can focus on is your retarded abortion fixation.



Nice dodge. ;)

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by McCarrens
euthanasia cases for terminally ill people "with no free will," including children, the severely mentally retarded and people left in an irreversible coma after an accident.



Well, I think we need to define a few things here.

To what age does the term children apply? Are we saying that a 7-year-old with a case of lukemia has no free will and should have his/her parents decide when it's time to give up?

How ill is terminally ill? Are we talking just bedridden patients waiting for their deathbed or the ones with dieseases that can't be cured and will eventually lead to them to be bedridden?

How retarded is severely retarded? This one is scary because it could be abused by parents and family who do not want to accept someone with even a slight case into the family.

[Mezro]

If parents want to euthanize a terminally ill or severely retarded child they should have that right.

I love how people oppose this; easy to be an armchair quarterback when the emotional and financial burden isn't yours.

Mezro...I applaud the Netherlands for forward thinking that gives parents a choice under difficult circumstances...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Nice dodge. ;)

Dodge of what, the wider issue that you "conservatives" only care about American kids when their in the womb, but could give a shit about them once there out.

you are the ones that are dodging the real issues. You use abortion as your holy, feel good emotional crutch while you are busy pissing on poor children and making them suffer for the sins of their parents.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Dodge of what, the wider issue that you "conservatives" only care about American kids when their in the womb, but could give a shit about them once there out.

you are the ones that are dodging the real issues. You use abortion as your holy, feel good emotional crutch while you are busy pissing on poor children and making them suffer for the sins of their parents.

Sins of the parents? :rolleyes:

You're out of your liberal mind. Go think of something relevant to say on this topic and get back to me. :gulp:

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Mezro
easy to be an armchair quarterback when the emotional and financial burden isn't yours.


I have emotional and financial burdens from terminal illness within my family. Both children and adults. So trust me, I know the pain and drama. Don't assume everyone is armchair quarterbacking on every topic that comes thru.

[Warham]

It's a slippery slope and the Netherlands is about to slide off.

[Nickdfresh]

I am not sure how reliable the "apnews" service is. This article from CNN has a different slant.



Dutch ponder 'mercy killing' rules
Wednesday, December 1, 2004 Posted: 5:54 PM EST (2254 GMT)

The Netherlands has already legalized euthanasia.

(CNN) -- Dutch health officials are considering guidelines doctors could follow for euthanizing terminally ill people "with no free will," including children, the severely mentally retarded and patients in irreversible comas.

Netherlands was the first country to legalize euthanasia -- ending the life of someone suffering from a terminal illness or an incurable condition, with their approval.

In recent years there also have been reports of mercy killings of terminally ill babies, and officials at one hospital say a number have been carried out there.

The Royal Dutch Medical Association (KNMG) has asked the Netherlands Ministry of Health to create an independent board to evaluate euthanasia cases for each category of people "with no free will."

Doctors now follow legal standards regarding euthanasia, or assisted suicide, for patients who are able to make such a decision on their own.

Under the rules established by KNMG and the Dutch courts, the patient's decision must be freely made, well-considered and persistent; there must be unbearable suffering; and the attending physician should consult with a colleague.

There are no official guidelines for ending the lives of those who are unable to make their own decision, such as in the case of a baby, but Groningen Academic Hospital has conducted such procedures under its own, internal guidelines.

Dr. Eduard Verhagen, clinical director of the hospital's pediatric clinic, told NPR in an interview that the babies who had been euthanized were born with incurable conditions that were so serious "(we) felt that the most humane course would be to allow the child to die and even actively assist them with their death."

"They are very rare cases of extreme suffering. In these cases, the diagnosis was extreme spina bifada."

That disorder is marked by incomplete development of the brain, spinal cord and/or their protective coverings.

Because the procedure was not legal, Verhagen said, the hospital preferred that cases be assessed by a committee of experts. The Dutch parliament legalized euthanasia for adults in 2002.

"What we would like to happen here in Holland is that we put the spotlight on these decisions because they need to be extremely secure, and instead of taking these positions in a kind of gray area, we want them to be in the spotlight," the doctor said.

Eric Van Yijlick, project manager for SCEN (Support and Consultation on Euthanasia in the Netherlands), said the Groningen cases involving newborns should be referred to as "life ending without request" rather than euthanasia, because that term indicates the dying party has requested the procedure.

Van Yijlick said that to his knowledge, the killing of newborns is not common -- just a few cases yearly. No official statistics exist on terminally ill children's lives being terminated, he said.

New York Medical Producer Chris Gajilan contributed to this report.

[Warham]

Eventually it's going to progress to the point where they want to euthanize kids with Downs Syndrome, etc. It's simply intollerable. Like I said, it's a slippery fucking slope, and eventually they are going to get to the point where if a kid's not born perfect, might as well start fresh. It's kinda like an abortion after 9 months.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Eventually it's going to progress to the point where they want to euthanize kids with Downs Syndrome, etc. It's simply intollerable. Like I said, it's a slippery fucking slope, and eventually they are going to get to the point where if a kid's not born perfect, might as well start fresh. It's kinda like an abortion after 9 months.


From CNN
"They are very rare cases of extreme suffering. In these cases, the diagnosis was extreme spina bifada."

I understand your fears and share your concerns, but we are not talking about kids that were born with a hangnail here.

The Netherlands would suffer harsh criticism in Europe if they went any further with this as it would be reminiscent of the early Nazi policies of killing the mentally retard and infirmed.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
This article from CNN has a different slant.


This is why --



New York Medical Producer Chris Gajilan contributed to this report.

They took the AP release and had their journalist rewrite/rework it.

[Seshmeister]

This happens every day all over the world with babies on ventilators.

I know it happens in the UK and I'm sure it does in the US.

If a baby on life support is in agony and cannot survive for more than a couple of months what do you do? It's not killing it's withdrawal of pointless treatment.

Sitting there making political capital about abortion when you're talking about the worst fucking decision a parent could ever have to make is not in good taste at all.

[Nickdfresh]

For more info on Spina Bifida, click on the link below:

[Seshmeister]

Spina Bifida is a grey area. It would have to be only in the most extreme cases.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
This happens every day all over the world with babies on ventilators.

I know it happens in the UK and I'm sure it does in the US.

If a baby on life support is in agony and cannot survive for more than a couple of months what do you do? It's not killing it's withdrawal of pointless treatment.



As long as the parents are in full control of the course of action, I can support this. The doctors need to be completely advisory. The minute a "medical board" overrules a parents wishes and does otherwise, charges need to be filed. :gulp:

[Lou]

Fuck you liberals, with absolutely ZERO respect for life.

"If parents want to euthanize a terminally ill or severely retarded child they should have that right.

I love how people oppose this; easy to be an armchair quarterback when the emotional and financial burden isn't yours."

Financial burden? So parents should have an executive decision to determine who lives and dies. FUCK YOU.

[Lou]

This is precisely why I will never, EVER vote for someone who's pro-choice (which is 99.9% of Democrats). I cannot bear to think of someone in office with these kinds of values.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Lou
Fuck you liberals, with absolutely ZERO respect for life.

"If parents want to euthanize a terminally ill or severely retarded child they should have that right.

I love how people oppose this; easy to be an armchair quarterback when the emotional and financial burden isn't yours."

Financial burden? So parents should have an executive decision to determine who lives and dies. FUCK YOU.

No, fuck all you hypocrites. The same people that sit here and decry abortion have no problem with the death and dismemberment of Iraqi children from "collateral damage." I don't need anybody lecturing me.

[Nickdfresh]

I guess this was okay because the kid was already born and his skin was brown huh Lou? Your tax dollars at work Lou!

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Lou
Fuck you liberals, with absolutely ZERO respect for life.

"If parents want to euthanize a terminally ill or severely retarded child they should have that right.

I love how people oppose this; easy to be an armchair quarterback when the emotional and financial burden isn't yours."

Financial burden? So parents should have an executive decision to determine who lives and dies. FUCK YOU.

What the fuck are you doing replyin in a thread about Europe you EUROPE HATER!

Ha!:)

[Drumvike]

Hey all.

Always good to see nice discussions like this, aspecially since the topic of this thread is taking place in my country of birth.

Basically this is a reply to the messages that LOU put in here.

Like everyone, I also have my opinions about this topic. However, I don't so much feel the need to express them in this thread. But it's a shame in my humble opinion that most people here seem to at least think about the subject before they write down their comments. LOU is, in this thread at least, unfortunately, the exception to the rule.

So, here goes:
Dear LOU, if you feel the need to express your views on this topic, please do so. It is your right to express your thoughts, like anyone else. However, it is a little bit poor to only come up with nasty language to people who have a different opinion than yours. And it's even poorer when you only say that something is bad, but you don't come up with your view.

Unfortunately, I am afraid that LOU is the kind of person who thinks that saying "F*** YOU" is enough to portray his opinion. If this is the case, at least I can say that I live in a country who has a good solution to get rid of these kind of narrow minded people. It's called 'Euthanasia'! :D

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Drumvike


Unfortunately, I am afraid that LOU is the kind of person who thinks that saying "F*** YOU" is enough to portray his opinion. If this is the case, at least I can say that I live in a country who has a good solution to get rid of these kind of narrow minded people. It's called 'Euthanasia'! :D

Fuck off. :gulp:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Drumvike


Unfortunately, I am afraid that LOU is the kind of person who thinks that saying "F*** YOU" is enough to portray his opinion. If this is the case, at least I can say that I live in a country who has a good solution to get rid of these kind of narrow minded people. It's called 'Euthanasia'! :D

Ignore Lou.

He's just worried that if euthanasia for retarded children becomes common place he'll get a knock at his door one night...:)

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Lou
Fuck you liberals, with absolutely ZERO respect for life.

Financial burden? So parents should have an executive decision to determine who lives and dies. FUCK YOU.

You're a gw supporter dude; listen to yourself. You personally validated a war in which uncounted 1000s have died. And you made it clear that you feel we should continue the crusade. That's what happened when you voted for gw, which you admitted to doing.

[Lou]

By voting for Bush it's not a mandate to continue the crusade. I refuse to put a pro-choicer in office. There is no meritorious defense for killing babies, none. I also never said I was for the war in Iraq.

[Lou]

Originally posted by Drumvike
Hey all.

Always good to see nice discussions like this, aspecially since the topic of this thread is taking place in my country of birth.

Basically this is a reply to the messages that LOU put in here.

Like everyone, I also have my opinions about this topic. However, I don't so much feel the need to express them in this thread. But it's a shame in my humble opinion that most people here seem to at least think about the subject before they write down their comments. LOU is, in this thread at least, unfortunately, the exception to the rule.

So, here goes:
Dear LOU, if you feel the need to express your views on this topic, please do so. It is your right to express your thoughts, like anyone else. However, it is a little bit poor to only come up with nasty language to people who have a different opinion than yours. And it's even poorer when you only say that something is bad, but you don't come up with your view.

Unfortunately, I am afraid that LOU is the kind of person who thinks that saying "F*** YOU" is enough to portray his opinion. If this is the case, at least I can say that I live in a country who has a good solution to get rid of these kind of narrow minded people. It's called 'Euthanasia'! :D

Hey ass pirate, here's my view: abortion and euthanasia are WRONG and disregard for human life.

[Lou]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
What the fuck are you doing replyin in a thread about Europe you EUROPE HATER!

Ha!:)

I know you're joking around but this is vastly different from continually bashing a country every day, which is what you do.

[Warham]

How many babies have been aborted since Rowe vs. Wade?

30 million maybe?

How many have died in Iraq so far? 50,000? 100,000?

I'll even give you 500,000, which I know is not accurate.

I don't need to be shown pictures by liberals of kids in Iraq when I can show you pics of viable kids being dismembered by a vacuum cleaner.

[ODShowtime]

Some of you people have your priorities messed up. It's as simple as that.

[Warham]

What should our priorities be, pray tell?

[ODShowtime]

I've laid it out plenty of times Warham. If you think stopping gays from marrying and stopping abortions is more important than stopping the military industrial complex from achieving a world hegemony, then your priorities are messed up.

Don't matta now, we're all fucked.

[Warham]

You are starting to sound like Nancy Pelosi.

Yeah, we're all fucked, but you'll still live to a ripe old age.

[ODShowtime]

Well, I'll give it to you that voting for Kerry may not have stopped the whole 'military industrial world hegemony' thingy.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
You're a gw supporter dude; listen to yourself. You personally validated a war in which uncounted 1000s have died. And you made it clear that you feel we should continue the crusade. That's what happened when you voted for gw, which you admitted to doing.

Is that any different than being against the war knowing that Saddam would have continued to butcher thousands upon thousands of innocent people? I think not. Maybe it helps you sleep better at night...a virtual Teddy Bear, maybe. :gulp:

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Is that any different than being against the war knowing that Saddam would have continued to butcher thousands upon thousands of innocent people? I think not. Maybe it helps you sleep better at night...a virtual Teddy Bear, maybe. :gulp:

The world isn't yes/no, black/white. For the record Vodka&Green is my virtual teddy bear these days.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Is that any different than being against the war knowing that Saddam would have continued to butcher thousands upon thousands of innocent people? I think not. Maybe it helps you sleep better at night...a virtual Teddy Bear, maybe. :gulp:

Or when George Bush Sr. allowed thousands of Shiites to get butchered by Saddam's regime when he called on them to rise up and then didn't lift a finger as they were massacred.

I guess it's just a matter of timing!

[ODShowtime]

Nice one Nick. That one is still coming back to bite us. At least that prick didn't get re-elected.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Or when George Bush Sr. allowed thousands of Shiites to get butchered by Saddam's regime when he called on them to rise up and then didn't lift a finger as they were massacred.

I guess it's just a matter of timing!

I had to slap your ass down on this one time.....;)