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FORD
12-04-2004, 01:38 AM
Friday, December 03, 2004

God is killing American Christianity... and we GODDAMN well DESERVE it!
There. Always wanted to paraphrase Stanley Hauerwas. Today I finally get my chance... which ain't the easiest thing to do considering that Hauerwas' language can be salty enough to restock a brine factory.

Hauerwas actually said "God is killing the church, and we goddamn well deserve it!" but I've been thinking lately about how God is letting one of the larger shoots of this vine wither and die on its own. I wouldn't have understood that except for discovering Stanley Hauerwas years ago: it was in a college class on modern Christian thinkers that I read his books Resident Aliens and Unleashing the Scripture. I'd only been a Christian for a little less than a year at that point, after a lifetime of being told what Christianity was by people who didn't understand what it was about at all. Hauerwas and other theologians forced me to reconsider everything that I'd come to to accept about this faith, compelling me to take nothing at face value, especially if it was something that man insisted upon. From that time on my growth in Christ has depended upon actively crucifying my own understanding of things so that His truth, whatever it may be and regardless of how I desire to accept it, might take precedence in my life. I want to progress as a Christian according to His will, not my own. Certainly not what any number of "Christians" who make spectacles of themselves would have me become.

To wit: Christians in America are a decadent and lazy lot that - with very few exceptions - have no notion whatsoever about what it means to REALLY surrender all to God's will. I know: no one can do that perfectly. I sure as Hell can't. But most Christians in the "civilized" world and America in particular don't even give a flying rat's butt about yielding anything to Christ at all! The institution of the church in America is a flaccid, useless organ that does little about the malignancy beneath this country's boastful veneer: heck, if anything complacent Christians are helping to spread it.

You know what scares me? That so many Christians in America don't give a damn about the freedom that Christ died to give them. They don't want to think for themselves. They fear being apart from the comfortable patterns of this world. Fercryinoutloud, most "evangelicals" can't even THINK on their own enough to NOT vote for whoever it is that their "Christian leaders" and the Republican party put before them. These people aren't worthy of being considered American citizens... and much less bold witnesses for Christ. You don't show much boldness by letting your personal character get raped without lubricant while Jerry Falwell tells you to lay back and enjoy it 'cuz yer assailant can be forgiven since he's got an "R" or a "W" stamped on his forehead.

The church institution dying in America? Let it die. Let this country die with it too. It was only really alive so long as it had a humbleness before God fueling her vitality: minus that, it's as when Jesus said that salt which loses its taste is useless. Why should we keep propping it up with desperate measures that trash the Constitution and destroy our freedoms? I mean how the Hell do I, as a Christian and a patriot, dare be persuaded that this nation's current state is anything comparable to what our fathers fought and died for?

I can't because it ain't. I'd rather see America die an honest death than let her linger in indignity on life support. Come to think of it, now's as good a time as any - I'd even say it's downright obligatory - for a Christian guy who's been labelled a "conservative" by most to take an American flag and burn it to cinders. Hey, why not? It's just a piece of cloth, after all. It doesn't really stand for anything. Not anything worth putting into routine practice, anyway.

Don't think that the thought of publically burning the American flag hasn't crossed my mind lately. 'Twould be my own protest against nationalism. That's not protesting "patriotism" folks, and we need to differentiate here. Real patriots are children who are too ashamed to simply do nothing while an alcoholic parent drinks himself and his family to ruin: they're gonna tell that parent how bad he's become, no matter how much it hurts doing so. Nationalists are the kids who help themselves to Daddy's bottle while he's passed out in a stupor. They don't CARE if he gets better, or even WANT him to: it's their way of controlling and exploiting him.

Nationalists are the ones who've created a bastardized Christianity where both God and State demand our unquestioning loyalty. And unfortunately, it's this damnable syncresis that "has the reins" of American government right now. Patriots - the true patriots - will be the ones who contest this. They will condemn the dogma that the President of the United States, the Congress and the courts are divinely anointed to be over the people, as though they were priests acting on our behalf. Bullcrap to that: God gave authority over this country to We the People, not to a would-be Caesar and his court of patricians. And the common citizen owes not any man, or political party, or judicial decree any allegiance or respect in the slightest, when those things violate the authority that God has set.

Ya see, we as Christians in America used to understand that. Back when we were a free country. Back when we were free because we generally did let God have sovereignty over our individual lives. Then we chose to let the state have the sovereignty instead. We relegated God to second place or no place at all... and incrementally found ourselves a slave race for benefit of contemptible men.

This is why I have come to hate so much of American Christianity. Because it got trusted with a LOT of responsibility by God Himself... and it Screwed. It. All. Up. We were once the freest nation in history by the grace of God. Today many of our "Christian" leaders use the name of God to shackle us all the more. They distract us from our bondage by giving us idolatry: the images of the Strong Leader, the Powerful Missile, the Waving Flag... all of them tin gods that we have allowed to take the homage due the Lord Above All. They have converted the meaningless deaths of our soldiers during dubious conflict into a kind of sacrament: they are a blood offering on the altar of the dual figurehead of God and America.

To be blunt: American Christians, a whole sorry lot of 'em anyway, are a bunch of spiritual whores. And I defy any of 'em to declare that I'm being a "bad Christian" or a "traitor to my country" for pointing out their own wretched apathy. THEY are the ones who have let both God and this country down, and not all the bowing before the burning Bush in the world will tender that seared conscience into anything redeemable.

Lot of this stuff has been on my mind already since the start of this week. It was Kyle Williams' blog entry discussing Rick Mercier's article "If you read the Gospels, the Religious Right is most often wrong" in the Fredricksburg Free-Lance Star that prompted me to lay these thoughts out. And Mercier referenced Stanley Hauerwas in the piece... which REALLY got my theological juices pumping!

So for whatever it's worth, here's the thoughts that have been dwelling upon my mind lately. I hadn't posted serious stuff in the past week or so 'cuz I needed to "suss things out" a bit. I haven't quite finished that yet... but, here ya go.

By the way, I've met Stanley Hauerwas before: very, very interesting fella. You walk away with no doubt that this guy takes his Christianity dead serious. You also leave him with your own conceptions assaulted and flayed to the bone. Go listen to him speak sometime if he ever comes to town. Like I said, very neat guy. He even autographed my copy of Unleashing the Scripture when we met :-)


link (http://theknightshift.blogspot.com/2004/12/god-is-killing-american-christianity.html)

FORD
12-04-2004, 01:55 AM
Here's the article referenced towards the end of the above......

If you read the Gospels, the Religious Right is most often wrong


Date published: 11/28/2004

WAS JESUS a big winner in the last election? You'd sure think so. If the pundits and Religious Right zealots are correct, the Son of God scored a knockout victory on Nov. 2.

We've had it drilled into our heads that something known as "moral values" was decisive in the election. Some worked-up commentators have even said we're on the brink of a second Great Awakening.

All this hype about the God talk swirling around in our culture prompted me to do a little research (a big departure from how I usually prepare for writing a column). I cracked open my Bible and started rereading the Gospels.

And you know what? I can't see what all this sanctimonious values rhetoric has to do with Jesus. I've compared what I read in Gospels with what I've been hearing from the Religious Right, and I've concluded that the holier-than-thous must have traded in their red-letter editions of the Good Book for red-state versions that omit most of Jesus' teachings.

The truth is, if you depend on the Christian right for your theological sustenance, you probably won't recognize the Jesus of the Gospels.

Jesus was quite a troublemaker. In fact, I'm thinking the Bush administration would have a special place for Jesus were the swarthy Nazarene to take up his ministry today in the U.S. of A.--in a cell with other Middle Eastern men awaiting deportation.

Let's recall what the Jesus of the Gospels espoused. "When you give a banquet, invite the poor, the crippled, the lame, and the blind. And you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you," the sandal-wearing rabble-rouser was known to say.

That sounds pretty good, but it makes you realize that JC would never have reached "Ranger" or "Pioneer" status in the Bush fund-raising machine.

Then, of course, there's Jesus' encounter with the rich ruler who said he was a righteous man because he'd followed the Ten Commandments since his youth (though he gave no indication that he'd ever erected a monument dedicated to them in a public place).

Jesus told the ruler: "There is still one thing lacking. Sell all that you own and distribute the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me."

When the ruler started looking glum, Jesus responded with his famous kicker: "How hard it is for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God! Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God."

Holy class warfare! No wonder Republicans have switched out the Jesus of the Gospels for a low-rent moralizer preoccupied with what other people are doing with their bodies.

I've no intention of turning this column into a Sunday school lesson, so I'll ease up on the Bible quotes. But go ahead and read the Gospels for yourself, and see if you can reconcile the Jesus you encounter in those texts with the Jesus the Religious Right wields as a battle-ax.

If you're a thoughtful, independent-minded person, I'll bet you read the Gospels and wonder: Where in America does this Jesus dwell?

Where in America is the Jesus who sides with the poor and the outcasts? Where in America is the Jesus who disdains those who wear their piousness on their sleeves? Where in America is the the Jesus with the prophetic voice, the radical who dares to tell the powerful what they don't want to hear?

Is he in the pews that fill every Sunday morning with the smug and complacent? Is he in a political party that fights for tax cuts for the rich while neglecting the needs of decent, hard-working Americans? Is he among the "God-and-country" demagogues who push an idolatrous nationalism and who see military service as the supreme form of sacrifice?

Your questions might not end there. You may observe that other things are missing from our fashionable "moral values" rhetoric.

You may, for example, notice the absence of any critique of an economic system that turns Jesus' birthday into an opportunity to jump-start consumer spending. Or any critique of corporate control of the public's airwaves, which helps ensure the culture is saturated with sexuality and violence that appeal to the lowest common denominator but generate huge profits.

Where is the righteous conservative Christian politician who makes these things campaign issues, who talks about them as moral issues?

I have no doubt that the Christian right and their leader, George W. Bush, are sincere about their faith. But I also have no doubt-- to paraphrase one of America's pre-eminent theologians, Stanley Hauerwas--that sincerity has precious little to do with Christianity.

This "moral values" talk doesn't do much to sustain Christianity, either. The phrase is as banal as the hacks (of both the political and journalistic variety) who are busy fetishizing it.

For political operatives, the phrase's beauty lies in its meaningless. It can be made to mean anything, and, in a culture with no meaningful moral narratives, it can be turned into a cudgel that's useful for political ends but has nothing to do with any coherent religious tradition.

In the spiritual vacuum that exists in this country, the Christian right is well-positioned to argue that its menagerie of fears and chauvinisms--piled into a box labeled "moral values"--constitutes a serious moral narrative. It doesn't, but the Religious Right's contribution to the denigration of Christianity will continue unabated until other Christian communities come up with a compelling alternative.

The trouble is, our society seems to lack the kind of exemplars who could build that alternative. What we need are the spiritual descendants of Martin Luther King Jr. and Dorothy Day, people who are willing to endure the enmity and scorn of the political establishment and mainstream culture.

Maybe those people are out there, but I don't see them. That's why I'm not optimistic about the survival of the Christian tradition in our culture. What many view as a great spiritual revival looks a lot to me like another stage of rot in American Christianity's corpse.

Can the cadaver rise up? It doesn't seem hopeful. In contemporary America, the Jewish Palestinian whom many call their messiah has become just another Middle Easterner to be ignored or reviled.

RICK MERCIER is a writer and editor for The Free Lance-Star.

Date published: 11/28/2004

link (http://www.fredericksburg.com/News/FLS/2004/112004/11282004/1577602)

DLR'sCock
12-04-2004, 12:33 PM
It doesn't take much thought to realize how people in the US have warped the true meaning behind christianity, but alas such is the folly of man, over and over and over history repeats itself. So easily, so many people are weakened by the corruption of power that comes from making themselves "gods".....



and all the fools sailed away....

Seshmeister
12-04-2004, 09:44 PM
The whole thing is a sick joke.

If Jesus even had existed then he was a hippy communist.

Viking
12-04-2004, 09:57 PM
You know, you poor fuckers need a liberal dose of Thorazine......:rolleyes:

Nickdfresh
12-04-2004, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
The whole thing is a sick joke.

If Jesus even had existed then he was a hippy communist.

Jesus did exist, an he was a moderate-liberal American Democrat thank you very much!

Seshmeister
12-04-2004, 11:06 PM
Originally posted by Viking
You know, you poor fuckers need a liberal dose of Thorazine......:rolleyes:

Keep kidding youself if that helps you get through the day.:)

Viking
12-04-2004, 11:44 PM
Sesh, have you been drinking out of the bog again? :p

Warham
12-05-2004, 09:56 AM
Jesus is far from a liberal.

I don't know which Bible you read.

Point out the scriptures were Jesus was for abortions and gay marriage, and I'll say he's a liberal.

DLR'sCock
12-05-2004, 10:29 AM
typical and not surprising...

scam failin
12-05-2004, 12:21 PM
hi ford, i like very much what you have to say.where does jesus dwell in america? well..........as i found out some years ago by doing exactly what jesus said to do.the verse"will i find faith when i come back to earth?was the very sad reality.i found christ consciousness in people that are considered as bad or worse than adolf hitler.being as no one would be honest with me as a child growing up in a "religious" nazi christian home.so........who struck a chord in me was charles manson.DISMISS everything the media has said about him. i was lead by the spirit to find out the truth that was needed for me to know and understand about him and his "family".this is only one thing that helped me. the other was selling everything i had with my brother jay fixing up his van and traveling 10,000 miles across the united states reaching out to the homeless people on the streets and trying to understand people's realities like vietnam veterans and so forth with an open heart and mind.LISTENING.thus in time gaining awareness and understanding, realizing i am one with these people and am no different than anyone else on the planet.extremely humbling and painful to be reshaped or re-"programmed"if you will with LOVE being the motive and agenda for living.so.......... after awhile when i was completed and had the ability the power to help or enable people to come to this plateau...........basically they were to afraid to stand up and really do something for christ.i left back in 2001 nov after sept 11 because i was too disgusted to stay and sit in the apathy that now makes america so great???????? i live in bucharest romania for the past year and a half.it breaks my heart to see what is happening in america, but like you said, let it come, let it come quickly.BABYLON THE MOTHER OF WHORES.

Nickdfresh
12-05-2004, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by scam failin
hi ford, i like very much what you have to say.where does jesus dwell in america? well..........as i found out some years ago by doing exactly what jesus said to do.the verse"will i find faith when i come back to earth?was the very sad reality.i found christ consciousness in people that are considered as bad or worse than adolf hitler.being as no one would be honest with me as a child growing up in a "religious" nazi christian home.so........who struck a chord in me was charles manson.DISMISS everything the media has said about him. i was lead by the spirit to find out the truth that was needed for me to know and understand about him and his "family".this is only one thing that helped me. the other was selling everything i had with my brother jay fixing up his van and traveling 10,000 miles across the united states reaching out to the homeless people on the streets and trying to understand people's realities like vietnam veterans and so forth with an open heart and mind.LISTENING.thus in time gaining awareness and understanding, realizing i am one with these people and am no different than anyone else on the planet.extremely humbling and painful to be reshaped or re-"programmed"if you will with LOVE being the motive and agenda for living.so.......... after awhile when i was completed and had the ability the power to help or enable people to come to this plateau...........basically they were to afraid to stand up and really do something for christ.i left back in 2001 nov after sept 11 because i was too disgusted to stay and sit in the apathy that now makes america so great???????? i live in bucharest romania for the past year and a half.it breaks my heart to see what is happening in america, but like you said, let it come, let it come quickly.BABYLON THE MOTHER OF WHORES.

WTF! Who left the asylum door open!? PHIL!!

scam failin
12-05-2004, 12:30 PM
great picture of charlie...........you have any more?

Nickdfresh
12-05-2004, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by scam failin
great picture of charlie...........you have any more?

No, I have some really good Nazi pics if you'd like...wait! I'll get you something.

Click on this link to find out all you need to know about Charlie (Caution, not for the squeamish or work appropriate!)

:mad: :( :o

Nickdfresh
12-05-2004, 12:41 PM
The beautiful Sharon Tate before the Manson Fucking Cultist murderers killed her!

Now get your head out of your ass Scam Failin' and wake the fuck up!

scam failin
12-05-2004, 12:46 PM
hey no problem if you believe what the media has told you about charlie and the murders.i am not defending him or what those people did but to let you know,charlie never killed anyone.and if you believe what the DA said about "helter skelter" and how he used magic and so forth to orchestrate the whole thing.........well.........your not alone.most americans believe just like you. peace.

Nickdfresh
12-05-2004, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by scam failin
i am not defending him or what those people did...

Yes you are, you are an apologist that finds solace in the rankings of a murderous maniac!


but to let you know,charlie never killed anyone....

Neither did Hitler. He just gave "orders," like Manson, to underlings to do his dirty work for him.

and if you believe what the DA said about "helter skelter" and how he used magic and so forth to orchestrate the whole thing.........well.........your not alone.most americans believe just like you. peace.

Dude, stay out of my country. We have enough deluded crazy people here!

scam failin
12-05-2004, 01:00 PM
well......like i said i am not defending what those people did.but to have an understanding of something different than what you have been told since a child is not being asleep.or more importantly it is not evil. i am very awake bro..........i judge everything to get an understanding of myself. no one can teach you that. you have to find it out for yourself.

scam failin
12-05-2004, 01:03 PM
i couldn't of said it better myself."you have enough deluded crazy people in america".

Nickdfresh
12-05-2004, 01:19 PM
Originally posted by scam failin
i couldn't of said it better myself."you have enough deluded crazy people in america".

And you pick the craziest one of all to be your spirit guide. LOL

ELVIS
12-05-2004, 01:38 PM
This thread is a piece of crap!

FORD, you need help...

scam, you are beyond help...

BigBadBrian
12-05-2004, 02:54 PM
Was this article written by the same dude who played Peter in the BRADY BUNCH?

http://www.autographedtoyou.com/xq/asp/ssid.F8A67495734C4311A6F3AE0A6EB33651/parentid.455/id.1096/Christopher+Knight/qx/celebpics/christopher_knight1b.jpg

FORD
12-05-2004, 03:00 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Was this article written by the same dude who played Peter in the BRADY BUNCH?

http://www.autographedtoyou.com/xq/asp/ssid.F8A67495734C4311A6F3AE0A6EB33651/parentid.455/id.1096/Christopher+Knight/qx/celebpics/christopher_knight1b.jpg

I don't know. I was wondering the same thing, actually.

FORD
12-05-2004, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
This thread is a piece of crap!

FORD, you need help...


Care to tell me exactly where Knight is wrong?

Won't get any disagreement with me about the Manson shit though. That's way over the top.

Manson is a psychotic killer who used LSD to brainwash his zombie followers into committing murders. There isn't anything remotely Christ like about that.

Nickdfresh
12-05-2004, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by FORD
I don't know. I was wondering the same thing, actually.

I know the actress that plyed Alice is deep into Christianity and lives on a commune in Pennsylvania I think.

DaveIsKing
12-05-2004, 05:13 PM
SEE, this is why I worship the sun. It doesn't give a fuck.

YAWN
12-05-2004, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by DaveIsKing
SEE, this is why I worship the sun. It doesn't give a fuck.
LMAO!!

Hey, FORD... mind if I just start calling you Jeremiah? ;)

FORD
12-06-2004, 09:13 AM
Originally posted by YAWN
LMAO!!

Hey, FORD... mind if I just start calling you Jeremiah? ;)

Nah, you might want to go with Ezekiel. Bush & his so called "soulmate" Pooty-Poot are determined to bring the prophecies of Ezekiel 38-39 into reality.

BigBadBrian
12-06-2004, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by FORD
Nah, you might want to go with Ezekiel.



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