A Question for the guys [Archive] - The Diamond David Lee Roth Army

Northern Girl

12-04-2004, 11:09 AM

Tell me what is on a guy's mind when he sends a lady a drink at the bar without any contact whatsoever. What is he expecting? Especially not knowing if you are available or not. Would he be more offended if I said "No take it back" or if I accept it but don't go over and talk to him. It's an ackward position to be in, and I feel bad accepting if I'm really not interested. But it seems rude not to accept either, and it would be embarrasing to the guy for the bartender to go back and say "she didn't want it."

If a bartender comes over, and says "Hey, that guy wants to buy you a drink" and I accept; then that's a different story. Then I'm saying it's okay and I will go over and talk to him.

Can I get a male perspective on this?

Fairwrning

12-04-2004, 11:14 AM

Accept the drink...go talk to the guy..and if he is an ass...give him back his 3 bucks:D

Northern Girl

12-04-2004, 11:17 AM

What if you're not available, and the guy honestly doesn't have a chance?

Fairwrning

12-04-2004, 11:20 AM

well..you basically tell him that..carry the drink over..tell him he has no chance..and offer to give him the drink back..chances are you will keep the drink and no feelings are hurt...

Northern Girl

12-04-2004, 11:34 AM

Originally posted by fairwrning
well..you basically tell him that..carry the drink over..tell him he has no chance..and offer to give him the drink back..chances are you will keep the drink and no feelings are hurt...

Well, that's a good answer. It's still ackward to have to reject someone to their face for whatever reason. But not available is definitely the easiest reason.

Fairwrning

12-04-2004, 11:35 AM

Originally posted by Northern Girl
Well, that's a good answer. It's still ackward to have to reject someone to their face for whatever reason. But not available is definitely the easiest reason. I have heard it many times:D

POJO_Risin

12-04-2004, 11:38 AM

Well...wrning's advice is solid...but...

if a guy doesn't have the balls to walk up to you and offer you a drink...you shouldn't be expected to walk up to him to say no...

give the bartender a note on a napkin that says...thanks...but I'm taken...leave the drink next to you...and order another one...

if he doesn't look offended...take both...;)

Northern Girl

12-04-2004, 11:54 AM

Originally posted by POJO_Risin
Well...wrning's advice is solid...but...

if a guy doesn't have the balls to walk up to you and offer you a drink...you shouldn't be expected to walk up to him to say no...

give the bartender a note on a napkin that says...thanks...but I'm taken...leave the drink next to you...and order another one...

if he doesn't look offended...take both...;)

I like that too. You're a wise one, Pojo.

David Van Via

12-04-2004, 12:11 PM

chunkashin!!

12-04-2004, 12:56 PM

Originally posted by Northern Girl
Tell me what is on a guy's mind when he sends a lady a drink at the bar without any contact whatsoever. What is he expecting? Especially not knowing if you are available or not. Would he be more offended if I said "No take it back" or if I accept it but don't go over and talk to him. It's an ackward position to be in, and I feel bad accepting if I'm really not interested. But it seems rude not to accept either, and it would be embarrasing to the guy for the bartender to go back and say "she didn't want it."

If a bartender comes over, and says "Hey, that guy wants to buy you a drink" and I accept; then that's a different story. Then I'm saying it's okay and I will go over and talk to him.

Can I get a male perspective on this?

DONT TAKE IT!!!, suppose its spiked, the guy gould be a rapist!!, Well in that situation the guy is just looking for a one night stand. Its clearly obvious. depends if you want a shag or not.

lms2

12-04-2004, 01:55 PM

How about a female perspective?

Do you want the drink or not? Thats the real question! If a guy smiles and says hi, do you feel the need to smile and say I am taken? Or do you wait for an advance?

The guy is not offering anything but a drink at this point. :D

Northern Girl

12-04-2004, 02:03 PM

Originally posted by chunkashin!!
Well in that situation the guy is just looking for a one night stand. Its clearly obvious.

Out of the mouths of babes! See you are all bringing up good points, and that's why I don't know what to think. I suppose it is an individual thing what he is expecting.

POJO_Risin

12-04-2004, 02:58 PM

Hell no...if I'm buying anyone a drink...it's for a sure thing...lmfao...or myself...

hell if I'm wasting $3 on someone who may have a drunken 300 .lber in the bathroom waiting to kick my ass...or worse yet...

drink a drink I bought for her...

If I wasn't set to walk up to the lady myself...and trust me...after the 6th or 7th beer...that wasn't an issue...I sure as fuck wasn't going to take a drink out of my own pocket...lmfao...

Full Bug

12-04-2004, 03:05 PM

Be glad that you are attractive enough to get a guys interest, could be worse.....
You are likely hot, deal with it, lol.....

Fairwrning

12-04-2004, 03:08 PM

ya know..after thinking...if i were female and a guy bought me a drink..i would drink it and not say shit..i would not approach his ass if he didnt approach me first..and then i would say i was taken and laugh

lms2

12-04-2004, 03:09 PM

Pojo, I believe you are an exception to most every rule. LMAO...

I had a guy buy me dinner once just for smiling at him... and no, he didn't "expect" anything in return. Matter of fact... he left without even saying hi! That sucked.

I had a guy buy me a t-shirt at a concert one time and when I looked up to thank him... he was gone.

I have had more drinks sent to me with the instructions not to say who it is from, than I have had drinks sent to me saying this is from that guy right THERE! (The suspense is fun-I have done it to guys myself just to see them start checking out the women around...)

And just for the record.... if a girl returns a drink to a guy and says "No thanks I am taken" or "No Thanks, I am not interested" it gets met with a "Bitch" comment. If you just take the drink and go your merry way... everyone is happy. Well, okay, maybe the guy could be happier, but hey, if he is gonna sweat the cost of $3.00 drink... let him. He shouldn't have assumed it was gonna get him anything anyway. :D

Full Bug

12-04-2004, 03:11 PM

Well NG, since your nips are always hard you cant blame the guys ya know.......

Northern Girl

12-04-2004, 05:44 PM

Originally posted by Full Bug
Well NG, since your nips are always hard you cant blame the guys ya know.......

I'm not blaming or complaining, just trying to understand what goes on in those male minds. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt not everyone is just looking to score.

MAX

12-04-2004, 05:52 PM

Hmmmmm..........

That's an interesting question cos I rarely used that approach back in the day. If I was in a bar and there was any sort of eye contact or smiling, I'd usually go over and introduce myself and start a conversation. If she seemed interested, then I would offer to buy her a drink. If there were no sparks, I'd just say "It was nice meeting you" and move on. Sorry, I'm not sure if that's any sort of an answer that you were looking for? :confused:

scottydabodi

12-04-2004, 05:56 PM

The last time a dude tried to buy me a drink, I threw his fuckin ass through the front window... but I kept the damn drink!!

MAX

12-04-2004, 05:58 PM

Originally posted by scottydabodi
The last time a dude tried to buy me a drink, I threw his fuckin ass through the front window... but I kept the damn drink!!

ROTMFFLMMFAO!!!!!!

BARE BONE

12-04-2004, 06:02 PM

Flip this question around say a not so attractive woman sends you a drink. You accept, then she comes down and starts talking to you. Then your fucked because every woman in the bar is going to think your with her.I've seen it happen before. To answer your question is if you don't want the drink don't accept it (unless your short on money), you don't know him or owe him anything. so fuck him. He'll get over it. What do care what he thinks of you.

BARE BONE

12-04-2004, 06:04 PM

Originally posted by scottydabodi
The last time a dude tried to buy me a drink, I threw his fuckin ass through the front window... but I kept the damn drink!!

lol

MAX

12-04-2004, 06:15 PM

I'll tell you one of the most balsy moves I ever did though. I knew this one girl (she was hot but not very bright) from one of my classes. Not very well but we'd chit chatted a bit in a study group. Anyway, I was at a bar with a couple of buddies and low and behold she came in with what appeared to be her boyfriend. Well, she and I exchanged a couple of smiles and I sent a drink over to her right in front of her boyfriend. He gave me a dirty look and I just raised my glass as if I was toasting them LOL!!!! Before they left, she walked over, thanked me for the drink and gave me her number RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER BOYFRIEND!!!!

Northern Girl

12-04-2004, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by MAX
Hmmmmm..........

That's an interesting question cos I rarely used that approach back in the day. If I was in a bar and there was any sort of eye contact or smiling, I'd usually go over and introduce myself and start a conversation. If she seemed interested, then I would offer to buy her a drink. If there were no sparks, I'd just say "It was nice meeting you" and move on. Sorry, I'm not sure if that's any sort of an answer that you were looking for? :confused:

No that didn't help at all, but thanks for playing. LOL.

What a sweet guy. Actually that would be the ideal scenario IMO, but ...

scottydabodi

12-04-2004, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by MAX
I'll tell you one of the most balsy moves I ever did though. I knew this one girl (she was hot but not very bright) from one of my classes. Not very well but we'd chit chatted a bit in a study group. Anyway, I was at a bar with a couple of buddies and low and behold she came in with what appeared to be her boyfriend. Well, she and I exchanged a couple of smiles and I sent a drink over to her right in front of her boyfriend. He gave me a dirty look and I just raised my glass as if I was toasting them LOL!!!! Before they left, she walked over, thanked me for the drink and gave me her number RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER BOYFRIEND!!!!

THAT WAS YOU?!??!!?? Grrrr!!!!!

BARE BONE

12-04-2004, 06:20 PM

lol

MAX

12-04-2004, 06:21 PM

Originally posted by Northern Girl
What a sweet guy. Actually that would be the ideal scenario IMO, but ...

Well..........

What are you drinking? ;)

Ally_Kat

12-04-2004, 06:22 PM

Originally posted by lms2

And just for the record.... if a girl returns a drink to a guy and says "No thanks I am taken" or "No Thanks, I am not interested" it gets met with a "Bitch" comment.

OMG, that is so true for many many things.

At school I'll get random guys coming up and trying to get me to go with them to this winter dance that's coming up. Keep telling them I'm sorry, I'm taken, planning on getting married, and when they think I'm lying I point out the ring. Then they ask me what he has to do with them, that he'll never know, and that I know that I want their long, hard dicks. When I tell that I'm not that type of girl, I get called everything from bitch, cunt, slut (the irony!), and flaming lesbo. The lesbo was a new one for me. Poor guy. I was drinking when he yelled that at me and my beer ended up all over his face cuz I couldn't help laughing, which didn't make him any happier with me. lol

Randomly, when I'm on yahoo messenger, I get guys who live near me IMing me like crazy on how they'd like ot meet up and 'have some fun'. After a while, I got tired of the random IMs, so I filled my profile out and put on it that I was in a long-term relationship. They didn't stop. So then I put a disclaimer in it that I didn't cyber, I wasn't horny for them, and there was no chance in hell I was going to leave my man for them. And yes, I've been asked to. Random strangers who don't even fucking know me!

Did they stop after the disclaimer? No. So then I put that if they IM me anyway, I have the right to mock them. So now I usually get, 'Hi, you horny? Want to go out tonight baby? BYE.' Crackes me up each time I get it.

I had one guy from down under who honestly thought he would be able to convince me to leave my boyfriend, hop on a plane to Aussieland (he claimed he would pay), and be his sex slave. Started telling me that my man didn't know how to satisfy me and didn't have enough experience as him. I must have asked him a million times if his name was Mark cuz I thought it was Panamark playing a joke on me. Oh man, good times. :D

But yeah, do guys really think that approaching a gal in such a manner -- either online or in person -- puts them in a good light? Even if I was single, I wouldn't dare consider anyone who approached me that way. I dunno. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but it just seems crude and disrespectful to me.

Bob_R

12-04-2004, 06:22 PM

Ally_Kat

12-04-2004, 06:24 PM

Viking

12-04-2004, 06:24 PM

I couldn't answer that..........I never hung out in bars, unless a couple of us went there after work. Luckily, I've always seemed to find plenty of willing beavage out there when I'm on the hunt. Or between marriages. :p

MAX

12-04-2004, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by EVH FANATIC
On a side note: Max, you da man!

Thanks buddy! I used to be a cocky little shit back in the day.

Ozzy Fudd

12-04-2004, 06:34 PM

Originally posted by Viking
I couldn't answer that..........I never hung out in bars, unless a couple of us went there after work. Luckily, I've always seemed to find plenty of willing beavage out there when I'm on the hunt. Or between marriages. :p

Now that's A Fuckin Fact Bro Amen

scottydabodi

12-04-2004, 06:37 PM

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
But yeah, do guys really think that approaching a gal in such a manner -- either online or in person -- puts them in a good light? Even if I was single, I wouldn't dare consider anyone who approached me that way. I dunno. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but it just seems crude and disrespectful to me.

Ally's right(again). Y'know, I don't get it where guys think that this kind of behavoiur is a good idea... My rule for buying a girl at a bar a drink is FIRST checking to see if they're not with any other guy(cuz MAX doesn't mind it!! HAHA!!), then approaching them(not like a stalker, but just NICELY), introducing my self("Hi, I Scotty from TheRothArmy":-)), and asking her if she'd mind if I bought her a drink... If you're nice, sincere, and not creepy, then they'll usually accept the drink, and ensue with idle chatter. Sometimes she's got a boyfriend, if that's the case, just be polite, and understanding about it... don't give her the "I'm better than HE is" rap cuz that's fucking BULLSHIT. If you are "better" than her boyfriend, then IT'S HER CHOICE. Insulting another man in front of his girlfriend is FUCKING RETARDED. If she refuses the drink, just say "Sorry for bothering you" and move on... there are plenty of other girls in the bar. If you're a gentleman(I know that's a stretch for some of the ruffians we have here:-)), and RESPECTFUL, you'll have a fair amount of success without looking like an asshole. In other words, guys: DON'T BE A DICK... it makes all the guys out here who AREN'T dicks look bad.

MAX

12-04-2004, 06:43 PM

Originally posted by scottydabodi
My rule for buying a girl at a bar a drink is FIRST checking to see if they're not with any other guy(cuz MAX doesn't mind it!! HAHA)

Hey now, that happened ONCE!!! I already explained how I used to be regarding this subject and it's pretty much the way you are bro.

scottydabodi

12-04-2004, 06:45 PM

Originally posted by MAX
Hey now, that happened ONCE!!! I already explained how I used to be regarding this subject and it's pretty much the way you are bro.

Well, now, you see.... ah fuck it- when you're right you're RIGHT!!

MAX

12-04-2004, 06:56 PM

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
Classic! Giving the number like that sounds like something I would do if I was pissed off at mine. But I'm evil like that... :D

Hahahaha!!!!

Hey Ally,

I just made an ice cream base this afternoon. I don't know if you would like it but it's the season. I made an egg nog base but I added a bit of cloves, cinnamon and Meyer's Dark Rum. Don't worry, it will not get the kiddies sauced cos the alcohol boils out. I'll turn it into ice cream tomorrow.

Northern Girl

12-04-2004, 07:01 PM

Originally posted by MAX
I just made an ice cream base this afternoon. I don't know if you would like it but it's the season. I made an egg nog base but I added a bit of cloves, cinnamon and Meyer's Dark Rum. Don't worry, it will not get the kiddies sauced cos the alcohol boils out. I'll turn it into ice cream tomorrow.

That sounds wonderful. I'm impressed.

Ally_Kat

12-04-2004, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by MAX
Hahahaha!!!!

Hey Ally,

I just made an ice cream base this afternoon. I don't know if you would like it but it's the season. I made an egg nog base but I added a bit of cloves, cinnamon and Meyer's Dark Rum. Don't worry, it will not get the kiddies sauced cos the alcohol boils out. I'll turn it into ice cream tomorrow.

Christmas ice cream!

MAX

12-04-2004, 11:36 PM

Originally posted by Northern Girl
That sounds wonderful. I'm impressed.

Thanks but it's not hard to do at all. Seriously, you should get the ice cream maker that I told you about. :)

DLRDUDE

12-05-2004, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by Full Bug
Be glad that you are attractive enough to get a guys interest, could be worse.....
You are likely hot, deal with it, lol.....

Oh lord , what will you be thinking abut all night

Take the drink. I personally have never done that(sent a drink) I guess because I didn't want the rejection. I have had a drink bought for me twice by females on two different occasions. One of which was a very nice girl but not my type and the other that was HOT but still in love with her ex. Glad I'm married and done with that bar scene...Good Luck

LookN4AMootBeat

12-05-2004, 08:49 AM

LOL this is a funny thread.......
Ally Kat, guys go under the assumption that if they have nothing else going for them, then in the end their persistance will get them far. And, for some women it works, so really you have them to thank for the hassle! And you'd probably never admit it, but if you were SINGLE and some dude came after you that way, you'd at least want to find out if you were attracted to him physically....so he'd have a slight chance in hell.
Not that i'm defending that behavior, lol. Just giving a guy's perspective.

diamondsgirl

12-05-2004, 09:50 AM

Originally posted by MAX
Thanks buddy! I used to be a cocky little shit back in the day.

Used to be??? LMAO! :D

j/k... cocky is sexy, IMO. ;)

Dan

12-05-2004, 12:37 PM

Originally posted by Northern Girl
Tell me what is on a guy's mind when he sends a lady a drink at the bar without any contact whatsoever. What is he expecting? Especially not knowing if you are available or not. Would he be more offended if I said "No take it back" or if I accept it but don't go over and talk to him. It's an ackward position to be in, and I feel bad accepting if I'm really not interested. But it seems rude not to accept either, and it would be embarrasing to the guy for the bartender to go back and say "she didn't want it."

If a bartender comes over, and says "Hey, that guy wants to buy you a drink" and I accept; then that's a different story. Then I'm saying it's okay and I will go over and talk to him.

Can I get a male perspective on this?

It's what you call a mind game.Should I take the drink yes no yes no.Some ladies will play with you untill something better comes along.
Please note Loser Dan has been there.

lms2

12-05-2004, 12:39 PM

So Dan, are you saying if you buy a woman a drink, without talking to her, that you expect something in return?

diamondsgirl

12-05-2004, 12:57 PM

Originally posted by Dan

Please note Loser Dan has been there.

Dan you are not a loser, you are very sweet. :)

and cute ;)

MAX

12-05-2004, 01:00 PM

Originally posted by diamondsgirl
Used to be??? LMAO! :D

j/k... cocky is sexy, IMO. ;)

Who Moi??????? NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

You think so? ;) :D

MAX

12-05-2004, 01:06 PM

Originally posted by diamondsgirl
Dan you are not a loser

Yeah, what she said. Listen to her Dan cos she has good taste. :)

diamondsgirl

12-05-2004, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by MAX
Who Moi??????? NOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

You think so? ;) :D

I know so. DLR is a cocky mo fo...hot as hell, too. I love the cocky 'tude.

Dan

12-05-2004, 04:06 PM

Originally posted by lms2
So Dan, are you saying if you buy a woman a drink, without talking to her, that you expect something in return?

The only thing I want in return is a Hello and Thanks that's all.
Maybe a hand job under the table.(Just joking).

Dan

12-05-2004, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by diamondsgirl
Dan you are not a loser, you are very sweet. :)

and cute ;)

Thank you D.G,you are also So Sweet.LOL

bueno bob

12-05-2004, 05:00 PM

Originally posted by Northern Girl
Tell me what is on a guy's mind when he sends a lady a drink at the bar without any contact whatsoever. What is he expecting? Especially not knowing if you are available or not. Would he be more offended if I said "No take it back" or if I accept it but don't go over and talk to him. It's an ackward position to be in, and I feel bad accepting if I'm really not interested. But it seems rude not to accept either, and it would be embarrasing to the guy for the bartender to go back and say "she didn't want it."

If a bartender comes over, and says "Hey, that guy wants to buy you a drink" and I accept; then that's a different story. Then I'm saying it's okay and I will go over and talk to him.

Can I get a male perspective on this?

I'd say not accept it - it sends a clear message real quickly without having to go through any of the bullshit that accompanies (taking the drink, going to talk to him because you feel obligated, finding out he's an ass, giving him a bogus phone number, seeing him in the bar again the following week, waiting nervously to see whether or not he's going to confront you, blah blah blah).

Just say no, the barkeep tells him you refused, he gets over it real quick and moves right along with his happy life.

My opinion.

bueno bob

12-05-2004, 05:03 PM

That's what I used to do, anyway, whenever a woman would buy me a drink from afar and I didn't want anything to do with her...I would go over and say "Thanks, but I'm driving, so...appreciate it," and just leave it at that.

Women used to buy me drinks, anyway - it was all because I sang Dokken during Karaoke Fridays...

MAX

12-05-2004, 05:20 PM

NG and Ally,

Well, I finished the ice cream and it turned out really good but it sure is rich. :)

DaveIsKing

12-05-2004, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
Classic! Giving the number like that sounds like something I would do if I was pissed off at mine. But I'm evil like that... :D

Sounds like she cuckolded his ass. I wouldn't have been with a chick like that. But, then again, when I am with a chick she doesn't have time to flirt with other men, she's too busy taking pain medicine for a sore pussy. :eek: :D

And uh...if some stupid bitch DID happen to do such a disrespectful thing, I would have no alternative than to take her off, kill her and sacrifice her to Satan...oopss....:rolleyes:

MAX

12-05-2004, 05:28 PM

Originally posted by DaveIsKing
Sounds like she cuckolded his ass. I wouldn't have been with a chick like that. But, then again, when I am with a chick she doesn't have time to flirt with other men, she's too busy taking pain medicine for a sore pussy. :eek: :D

And uh...if some stupid bitch DID happen to do such a disrespectful thing, I would have no alternative than to take her off, kill her and sacrifice her to Satan...oopss....:rolleyes:

He was a dweeb and in a rival fraternity, so I figured "What the hell?" LOL!!! I only went out with her once after that anyway. It was more of an ego thing for myself. :)

DaveIsKing

12-05-2004, 05:34 PM

Originally posted by MAX
He was a dweeb and in a rival fraternity, so I figured "What the hell?" LOL!!! I only went out with her once after that anyway. It was more of an ego thing for myself. :)

Any man that would be a pussy in front of a woman, deserves to watch his lady become someone else's...up front and center.

Fuckin' shit happened to me twice since. BOTH TIMES with a married chick. She even told me right in front of her old man, "He's in the doghouse tonight." Then she said, "We all (our friends) need to get together sometime." Later she emailed me and told me she'd love to meet me "for lunch"...(in parenthesis..and with a smily wink).

She'd come onto me once before too.:confused:

There's no way I'd be a man if I allowed that shit to happen to me. No fucking way. Those guys are complete mice.

lms2

12-05-2004, 06:03 PM

Originally posted by Dan
The only thing I want in return is a Hello and Thanks that's all.
Maybe a hand job under the table.(Just joking).

Then maybe you should just start with a hello instead of buying her a drink. :D

Dan

12-05-2004, 06:36 PM

Originally posted by lms2
Then maybe you should just start with a hello instead of buying her a drink. :D

Hello then.

lms2

12-05-2004, 06:38 PM

LMAO. Hello Sweety. ;)

Reverberator

12-05-2004, 06:57 PM

I don't buy birds drinks .

They buy them for me .

Dan

12-05-2004, 08:29 PM

Originally posted by lms2
LMAO. Hello Sweety. ;)

Forget the drinks,lets go upstairs.

lms2

12-05-2004, 09:02 PM

Originally posted by Dan
Forget the drinks,lets go upstairs.

Does that line usually work for you?

MAX

12-05-2004, 09:05 PM

Hee hee!!!!!

lms and Dan are cracking me up. :)

Ally_Kat

12-05-2004, 09:21 PM

Originally posted by LookN4AMootBeat
And you'd probably never admit it, but if you were SINGLE and some dude came after you that way, you'd at least want to find out if you were attracted to him physically....so he'd have a slight chance in hell.

I've had it done to me when I was single, too. Didn't do anything for me then either. I don't like being approached as if the only thing I want/am good for is sex.

But what do you mean by wanting to find out of I was attracted to him physically? If he's standing in front of me trying to tell me how much of a sex god he is, I can see him. If you meant the guys that ask for my address online and then say they'll pick me up at 2 in the morning, the image of my cold, bloody body thrown on the side of the highway comes to mind and I don't even want to be bothered.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm picky when it comes to guys. Takes me forever to fall for a guy and even then it takes a lot of hold my interest. Plus, most guys don't want to be bothered with me after I tell them no nookie til the wedding day. Let me tell you -- that has been the best way for me to weed out wolves in sheep's clothing.