Is Bonds still a shoe-in HOF'er, and Rose still isn't ??

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Discuss, you bastards.... ;)

[POJO_Risin]

Hmmm...if Bonds is doing whatever everyone else is doing in San Francisco...would that make him a faggot as well?..that's just a ridiculous statement...

He cheated...he's a big part now of baseball's most sanctimonious records being under a cloud of doubt...

he...and everyone else they catch....should be banned...and that's that...

and fuck Rose...

[lucky wilbury]

i think there is a difference here. rose like many other players bet on games and there is no evidence of them tanking the games to cover the spread. bonds on the other hand did something to increase his performance in his favor and by doing so tilted the game his way and increased his numbers that way. without the juice would he have hit 500 hr maybe? 700? no way

[Snoo]

500? Yes, along with 58,000 career strikeouts. Before he left the Pirates, he averaged about 35 homeruns and everything else a strikeout, a year. Not literally, but close. A big reason (Bonilla was similar) that the Pirates never got past the Reds or Braves in the playoffs.

[POJO_Risin]

I just don't see steroids making you a better hitter...and striking out less...

The real question?

How many games were won by the Giants because of Bond's dingers?

[POJO_Risin]

You're average may go up a bit because some long flys turn into dingers...but it doesn't make you hit the ball better...or else everyone would be batting .330...

[lucky wilbury]

here are his stats from espn. compare his stats to his pics for the years they go with. go to espn.com and on the right click the photos:human growth and you'll see something ain't right

1988
.283, 24 HRs, 58 RBI

1989
.248, 19 HRs, 58 RBI

1990
.301, 33 HRs, 114 RBI

1991
.292, 25 HRs, 116 RBI

1992
.311, 34 HRs, 103 RBI

1993
.336, 46 HRs, 123 RBI

1994
.312, 37 HRs, 81 RBI

1995
.294, 33 HRs, 104 RBI

1996
.308, 42 HRs, 129 RBI

1997
.303, 37 HRs, 122 RBI

1998
.262, 34 HRs, 83 RBI

1999
.306, 49 HRs, 106 RBI

2000
.306, 49 HRs, 106 RBI

2001
.328, 73 HR, 137 RBI

2002
.370, 46 HR, 110 RBI

2003
.341, 45 HR, 90 RBI

2004
.362, 45 HR, 101 RBI

[POJO_Risin]

Yeah I saw that Wilbury...it's something...

[Bob_R]

I wouldn't piss on Barry Bonds if he was on fire.

[Lou]

"Rose deserves to be in the HOF, his actions took place off of the field, Bonds can rot in hell"

That's what I picked. Rose didn't fuckin' TAINT THE RECORDS OF THE GAME.

Rose is a despicable human being to be sure but he didn't cheat on the field.

What Bonds did is cheating. Bonds is a phenomenal player but how will we ever know what his stats would have been if he didn't juice up? How many of those homers wouldn't have been w/o the juice? Babe Ruth and Henry Aaron didn't cheat their way there. The home run record is the most prestigious in all of baseball, and you have fuckin' jokers like McGwire and Sosa passing by REAL ballplayers who didn't cheat like Mike Schmidt and Ted Williams.

Fuck Barry Bonds. What he did, unlike Pete Rose, will taint the records of the game for years to come.

[TLR]

I can't stand Bonds. I cannot view anything he does objectively. My intense dislike for him taints everything he has done/will do...

I'm a purist, so I don't think Rose should be in the HOF. He broke a rule that is POSTED in EVERY clubhouse in the bigs: Do NOT gamble on the game or you will be banned. Period...

[TLR]

Originally posted by EVH FANATIC
I wouldn't piss on Barry Bonds if he was on fire.

Couldn't have said it better myself...

[CROWBAR]

Neither one should be in period!

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by Lou
Rose didn't fuckin' TAINT THE RECORDS OF THE GAME.

Well, that's your opinion, and while we'll probably never know, who knows how many times he tanked games for the Reds with cash on the line....

The thing with Rose is that MLB took the stand in it's actions that players with numerous drug suspensions can still be at least eligible for the HOF....

Now for most of the players in question, that's a non-issue, 'cause they weren't HOF material.... But if Strawberry and Gooden had kept their nose clean (no pun intended ;) ), that's the point I was trying to make....

[POJO_Risin]

Rose certainly tainted the game by betting on baseball FROM THE DUGOUT...perhaps not the records as in all-time records...but who knows what moves you make on purpose...or even subconsciously you make if you are betting on the game you are playing in...

as for Bonds...he DID TAINT THE RECORDS OF THE GAME...and here we are not only talking about all-time records...but team records as well...

both should be out...period...

[Lou]

Now don't demean me, but did he bet on the other team? His story has been that he bet on his own team. Is there any evidence that he bet on other teams?

[POJO_Risin]

That's what he has said...that he didn't bet on the other team...and I believe that...but there's no difinitive proof...

and proof that he was betting on other teams not playing in the games he was involved in...since he said that as well...

either way...

[DLR7884]

Besides 73 homers in 2001.....I'd say he's been pretty consistant since 1990.

Yes, Bonds is an asshole, but why do you buttplugs decide to single him out and not Sammy Sosa or McGwire?

DLR7884
McGwire cheated, and Sosa uses corked bats....that's just as bad as the juice.

[Lou]

Well I think both of their records should be taken away too. And McGwire and Sosa are doing the juice as well. Sosa especially is just a joke. He exemplifies everything NOT to do in order to win. You talk about a "me" player, that's Sammy Sosa. I was very upset to see him pass real ballplayers on the home run list.

[DLR7884]

So basically.........all stats that have been accumulated since 1990 for 80% of MLB players should be erased?

DLR7884
That's not too logical.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Snoo
500? Yes, along with 58,000 career strikeouts. Before he left the Pirates, he averaged about 35 homeruns and everything else a strikeout, a year. Not literally, but close. A big reason (Bonilla was similar) that the Pirates never got past the Reds or Braves in the playoffs.

Wrong. His first four seasons that was kinda the case, but from 90-99(before the increase in size) he was the overall best player in the game(along with Griffey). You obviously dont know jack shit........

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by EVH FANATIC
I wouldn't piss on Barry Bonds if he was on fire.

I'm sure he feels the same way about you.

[Lou]

Originally posted by DLR7884
So basically.........all stats that have been accumulated since 1990 for 80% of MLB players should be erased?

DLR7884
That's not too logical.

Ideally, I think yeah that's what you'd have to do. Realistically, no. But anyone who's on the juice, their stats should be wiped. We'll have no way of knowing what the stats would have been off the juice. But in any event, it's a joke.

How far is Sammy Sosa away from 600 HR's? I don't think it's that far. What a joke, Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro and all these other jokers passing by Stan Musial, Mike Schmidt, Ted Williams, ugh.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Lou
Ideally, I think yeah that's what you'd have to do. Realistically, no. But anyone who's on the juice, their stats should be wiped. We'll have no way of knowing what the stats would have been off the juice. But in any event, it's a joke.

How far is Sammy Sosa away from 600 HR's? I don't think it's that far. What a joke, Sammy Sosa and Rafael Palmeiro and all these other jokers passing by Stan Musial, Mike Schmidt, Ted Williams, ugh.


Listen Lou, I'll be honest here. I'm a life long Giants, and HUGE Barry Bonds fan. You at least have to admit Barry is a hall of famer.........I actually preferred Barry when he was the complete package. Speed, power, defense..........

[Lou]

OK I looked it up, Sosa has an astounding 574 HRs. That's 86 away from tying Willie Mays. He just turned 36. So if he has three more seasons @ 29 HR's a season, he'll pass Willie Mays.

Anyone find anything disturbing about that? That SAMMY SOSA will likely pass Willie Mays, a REAL ballplayer, probably the 2nd or 3rd greatest ballplayer of all time?

[Lou]

Originally posted by Bill Lumbergh
Listen Lou, I'll be honest here. I'm a life long Giants, and HUGE Barry Bonds fan. You at least have to admit Barry is a hall of famer.........I actually preferred Barry when he was the complete package. Speed, power, defense..........

Yes, without the juice he'd have 500 HR's and he is a HOF caliber player. If he didn't cheat, he'd still have had a great career, no question. I'm saying he should be disqualified because he cheated.

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Lou
Yes, without the juice he'd have 500 HR's and he is a HOF caliber player. If he didn't cheat, he'd still have had a great career, no question. I'm saying he should be disqualified because he cheated.


I disagree, because MLB didnt have a clear cut policy about steroids, even though he knew it was wrong.

[Carmine]

I don't know about the roids? I mean, you still gotta swing the bat, hand eye coordination has to tops, and you still need enough power to reach the seats, which Bonds has all of without "juice". Did it have an effect?, sure, but enough to question whether or not he still hits all the home runs. I don't think so, those home runs were hit with GOD GIVEN TALENT, not steroids. Pete Rose was a degenerate gambler, yes, but absolutely belongs in the Hall of Fame!

just my thoughts....

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
I don't know about the roids? I mean, you still gotta swing the bat, hand eye coordination has to tops, and you still need enough power to reach the seats, which Bonds has all of without "juice". Did it have an effect?, sure, but enough to question whether or not he still hits all the home runs. I don't think so, those home runs were hit with GOD GIVEN TALENT, not steroids. Pete Rose was a degenerate gambler, yes, but absolutely belongs in the Hall of Fame!

just my thoughts....

My thoughts exactly, on both matters.

[Brett]

Fuck them both. But I don't hold the same contempt for Rose that I do for that smug arrogant prick Bonds.

[DLR7884]

So, from what I'm reading....if Bonds wasn't such an asshole, you all wouldn't be making such a big deal out of this......would you?

DLR7884
Sammy lovers! (not Hagar, Sosa!)

[Bill Lumbergh]

Originally posted by DLR7884
So, from what I'm reading....if Bonds wasn't such an asshole, you all wouldn't be making such a big deal out of this......would you?

DLR7884
Sammy lovers! (not Hagar, Sosa!)


Of course, thats the whole point. Sheffield said the EXACT same thing Barry did(didnt know it was roids), and nobody really gave a fuck. Bunch of hypocrites.

[Bill Lumbergh]

And on another note, imagine if Barry had the corked bat............it wouldve been on ESPNNEWS 24 hours a day.

[Brett]

Sosa's a cheating prick too.

Sheffield is a cock-smoking piece of shit too. I have plenty to say about him? Where should I start?

[DLR7884]

Yep. He gets a bad rap because he doesn't kiss the asses of the press.

In turn, they fuck him over by trashing him and pointing out what a dick he is. I know he's a dick, but the press has it in for him.

DLR7884
It's bullshit.

[Lou]

Well I don't know you're pointing to but I'll make it clear:

ALL of them are jerk-offs, those that roided up. If it were possible I'd like to eradicate ALL of their stats from the record books. I hate Sosa more than Bonds. Sosa was nothing more than a nice player before he juiced up.

Every last one of them should be kicked out of baseball. My opinion, I think Rafael Palmeiro and Jeff Bagwell roided up too. Am I the only one who things Bagwell has a puffed up face? And there's no way Palmeiro has 550 HR's or whatever he has without roids.

[DLR7884]

Lou,

It's nice to know you aren't blind to the fact that many many players are doing that shit.

DLR7884
Unlike the rest of the fucksticks in here..... :)

[Lou]

Tell me he's not on roids:

[Brett]

They're all on the juice. Tarnished the game.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by DLR7884
McGwire cheated, and Sosa uses corked bats....that's just as bad as the juice.

Dude, you are simply 100 pct. wrong with McGwire....

Andro was completely legal at the time in '98....

And when asked about the supplements he was taking, he openly admitted that he was using them....

It was until well after that that MLB decided to ban it....

[Lou]

Hell yeah it was completely legal, because MLB wanted him to break that HR record to get people back in the game. But I doubt they anticipated others breaking it too. What a joke that was. How many times has 61 HR's been surpassed? At least five by my count.

[DLR7884]

You can say with 100% certainty that McGwire didn't use steroids?

DLR7884
Doubtful.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by DLR7884
You can say with 100% certainty that McGwire didn't use steroids?

DLR7884
Doubtful.

No, obviously I can't.... Is it out of the realm of possibility, of course not....

But at the same time I know you're not referring to anything else besides the Andro in this discussion when you state "he cheated"....

He was taking Andro, which had already been banned in the NFL, but was legal in the MLB....

Andro immediately became the controversial supplement.... As soon as that happened, he said right off of the bat that he was taking it.... THEN they banned it....

[Warham]

Roger Maris is still the all-time substance-free home run king!

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Warham
Roger Maris is still the all-time substance-free home run king!

In a season.Let's not forget that Hammerin' Hank is the all-time substance free home run king!

[Snake]

Originally posted by Lou
Well I don't know you're pointing to but I'll make it clear:

ALL of them are jerk-offs, those that roided up. If it were possible I'd like to eradicate ALL of their stats from the record books. I hate Sosa more than Bonds. Sosa was nothing more than a nice player before he juiced up.

Every last one of them should be kicked out of baseball. My opinion, I think Rafael Palmeiro and Jeff Bagwell roided up too. Am I the only one who things Bagwell has a puffed up face? And there's no way Palmeiro has 550 HR's or whatever he has without roids.

Cuz Palmeiro looks so buff...

you're a blind dipshit

[Warham]

The only juice Palmeiro takes is Viagra.

Perhaps that helps him with his stick?

I'd think out of all those guys, Palmeiro's are the real deal.

[Snake]

either that or you just have it in for him for some weird, bizarre reason

[Snake]

Originally posted by Warham
The only juice Palmeiro takes is Viagra.

Perhaps that helps him with his stick?

I'd think out of all those guys, Palmeiro's are the real deal.

voice of reason

you're clearly not someone full of unreasonable hate for a great player

maybe its cuz he played in texas for so long

it all carries on to the cowboys thing with all their championships and the eagles' none

[DLR7884]

How can you guys say that Maris and Aaron were substance free?

DLR7884
No chance they used drugs or corked their bats at all? puh-lease.

[Warham]

I'd bet you a fair sum of cash that Aaron never used a corked bat or roids.

[DLR7884]

Originally posted by Warham
I'd bet you a fair sum of cash that Aaron never used a corked bat or roids.


Is that based on facts that you know or your educated guess?

I never said that he or Maris cheated in anyway...I'm just stating that you can't be ignorant to the fact that there is a possibility that it COULD have happened.

DLR7884
Open your eyes, and your mind.

[Carmine]

Originally posted by DLR7884
I never said Maris cheated in anyway...

Did you see 61*? He did eat those nasty BLACK eggs! :D

[DLR7884]

LOL.

DLR7884
:)

[Carmine]

The players Union head Don Fehr was interviewed yesterday. The Union plans to open their collective bargaining agreement to insert stricter testing policies, to include testing during the off season, with strict penalties on a first offense. The whole thing is unforunate for baseball, especially when your kid(my son is 9), sees it on tv, and you have to try to explain what steroids are, what they do, and why "the future home run king" is in trouble. Also, why his favorite teams(yanks) first baseman(Giambi) is in trouble as well!

[Warham]

Open my mind to what?

I already said the guys back then drank more than anything. They were no saints. But the last time I remember, alcohol doesn't exactly enhance your athletic performance.

[DLR7884]

That's fine that you recognize that people drink alcohol.

I just don't understand why you don't think it's possible that anyone before 1985 cheated?

DLR7884
That's all.

[Warham]

Cheated? Sure, pitchers have cheated since day 1 with vaseline, scuffing, etc. Batters have cheated by getting signals, using too much pine tar (if you call that cheating), etc.

All I said originally was that Babe Ruth didn't use steroids, specifically designer stuff like the 'cream' and 'clear' like that asshole Bonds does.

[DLR7884]

Ok, I agree with that since steroids weren't around.

But he COULD have gained an advantage in other ways.

DLR7884
Can we agree on that at least? :)

[Carmine]

Originally posted by DLR7884
Ok, I agree with that since steroids weren't around.

But he COULD have gained an advantage in other ways.

DLR7884
Can we agree on that at least? :)

Ruth got jacked up on Nathans Hot Dogs and beer, everybody knows that!

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Originally posted by Carmine Raguzza.
Did you see 61*? He did eat those nasty BLACK eggs! :D

Weren't they green ??

Great movie, by the way....

The guy who played Mantle was an uncanny resemblance....

[PenguinsKID1986]

Rose was the manager he was part of the team, you cannot bet on baseball he new that!. At the time were steroids illegal? if so did MLB test anyone? And as far as true homerun king for one season, Mairs had 162 games Ruth had 154 and Hank Greenberg would have passed Ruth but they would not pitch to him the last 3 games of the season, He was stuck at 58 some say they would not pitch to him because they didn't want a Jew to brake the record. Bonds holds the record at 73!

[Lou]

Boy now THAT was a brilliant post. :rolleyes: