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blueturk
02-03-2005, 02:24 PM
Leave it to Dubya to push for a plan that isn't even planned yet.


SOCIAL SECURITY
White House notes plan lacks solutions for shortfall
By Michael Kranish, Globe Staff | February 3, 2005

WASHINGTON -- The Social Security plan outlined last night by President Bush does not include any direct means of dealing with the projected $10.4 trillion shortfall that he and his advisers say is driving his desire to overhaul the system, and it leaves unsaid whether Bush thinks a cut in future benefits is necessary, White House officials acknowledged.


Bush did provide new details about the size of what he calls "voluntary personal retirement accounts." One-third of Social Security taxes could be invested in the private accounts and the plan would apply only to those younger than 55. Those and other details tracked what Bush and his aides have said for months, and build on a similar proposal put forward by Bush's handpicked Social Security Commission in 2001.

But Bush did not endorse the more painful aspects of his commission's recommendations, such as cutting future promised benefits by switching from wage to price indexing. Prices are rising more slowly than wages, so a switch to price indexing would reduce benefits. Instead, Bush left that politically difficult choice up in the air, saying: "Fixing Social Security permanently will require an open, candid review of the options. . . . I will work with members of Congress to find the most effective combination of reforms."

Bush also ruled out raising payroll taxes. But he laid out a number of options he said are "on the table," including raising the full-benefit retirement age, which tops out at 67, or changing the way benefits are calculated in a way that would reduce now-promised payments to future retirees. He said "none of these reforms would be easy," and he endorsed none, asking Congress for suggestions.

It is far from clear whether Congress will be eager to tackle those choices. Senate minority leader Harry Reid, who argued in the Democratic response last night that Bush's plan would result "in a benefit cut of 40 percent or more," has said he doubts any Democrat will support private accounts. Republicans, meanwhile, are not as united in favor of Bush's proposal as they were for earlier legislation for tax cuts, and some have said they were eagerly awaiting more details from Bush.

After weeks of internal White House debate, the White House decided that it was too risky politically for Bush to embrace any mention of benefit cuts. Instead, the White House talked specifically only about the need to pay for at least a 10-year period of transition to private accounts. The White House said that would cost $664 billion; other estimates for a longer transition period put the cost between $1 trillion and $2 trillion.

But Bush has said the total cost of fixing what he has frequently called a "crisis" is much higher -- $10.4 trillion to make the system permanently solvent. The White House yesterday made clear that Bush's plan for private accounts was not expected to make up for that shortfall. The White House official who addressed several dozen reporters yesterday was asked whether it was fair to say that plan had "no effect whatsoever on the solvency issue." The official replied: "That is a fair inference. We're not making representation that the personal accounts alone are fixing the system's finances."

Senator John E. Sununu, the New Hampshire Republican who favors larger personal accounts than proposed by Bush, said he liked the direction of Bush's plan and said it might negate the need for cutting benefits: "This program in and of itself could put us on the path to solvency." Sununu, who backs a plan allowing 6 percent of wages in private accounts -- two points higher than Bush -- thinks benefit cuts could be avoided by cutting the growth in federal spending and taking advantage of the profits of private accounts.

Bush viewed his State of the Union speech as an opportunity to spell out his belief in the merits of private accounts. Under his plan, workers could set aside as much as 4 percent of their wages -- out of the 12.4 percent already paid by workers and their employers for Social Security taxes -- into private investment accounts. Workers could put as much as $1,000 into the accounts in the first year, rising by $100 annually thereafter.

The White House said the amount of guaranteed benefits currently paid by the system would be reduced by the amount that goes into the private accounts. That might not have been clear to listeners who heard Bush last night say "the account will provide money for retirement over and above the check you will receive from Social Security." The amount above the current benefit comes from the potential profit of the private account's investment. Bush did not mention potential losses that could occur in an account invested in what he called a "conservative mix of bonds and stock funds."

Under Bush's proposal, an annuity plan would be established so that workers do not withdraw all their money in a lump sum from the accounts upon retirement.

Workers born in 1965 or earlier could contribute to the plan starting in 2009. The funds would not be available until retirement. Unlike a 401(k) retirement plan, which is sponsored by employers, workers could not withdraw money early in emergency or borrow against it. But the money could be passed on to heirs.

The voluntary plan would be modeled on a government retirement system known as the Thrift Savings Plan, to which federal employees can contribute in addition to paying Social Security taxes. That plan offers workers a purposefully limited range of options designed to be somewhat conservative. A website for the plan indicates that the funds provided a return similar to a stock index fund.

Steve Savicki
02-03-2005, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by blueturk
Leave it to Dubya to push for a plan that isn't even planned yet.
I guess it can't be defined as a plan then. At least not in a dictionary.

Warham
02-03-2005, 03:15 PM
If Bush never got a mandate, then what the hell did Clinton have when he didn't even get 45% of the vote?

Nickdfresh
02-03-2005, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Warham
If Bush never got a mandate, then what the hell did Clinton have when he didn't even get 45% of the vote?

He had a larger percentage due to the third party candidate Perot. And I don't recall him saying mandate either.

Warham
02-03-2005, 03:56 PM
Clinton only beat Bush I by 3% in 1992, if I'm not mistaken.

Nickdfresh
02-03-2005, 03:59 PM
In 96', Clinton trounced Dole by eight % points.

In 92', be beat Bush by 5.6 % points!

Link (http://www.australianpolitics.com/usa/elections/96-92electoral-college.shtml)

Warham
02-03-2005, 04:02 PM
What did Reagan beat Mondale by in '84? I seem to have forgotten.

Nickdfresh
02-03-2005, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Warham
What did Reagan beat Mondale by in '84? I seem to have forgotten.

I dunno'...What did FDR beat Hoover by in 32?' ;)

Warham
02-03-2005, 04:08 PM
:D

DLR'sCock
02-03-2005, 06:14 PM
Wasn't Social Security ok before the Bush Admin, because the Clinton Administration set up a plan that created an ongoing Surplus that could have been put into the Social Security???


Now we have a staggering 7 trillion dollar deficit?

Warham
02-03-2005, 06:16 PM
Sure, Clinton's plan was to have a giant surplus by taxing us all to death.

ODShowtime
02-03-2005, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Sure, Clinton's plan was to have a giant surplus by taxing us all to death.

and bang everyone's girlfriends first

Nickdfresh
02-03-2005, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Sure, Clinton's plan was to have a giant surplus by taxing us all to death.

Oh brother!:rolleyes:

Warham
02-04-2005, 07:26 AM
Highest tax rates ever in the 90's.

ODShowtime
02-04-2005, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by Warham
Highest tax rates ever in the 90's.


yeah and it just crippled the economy! :rolleyes:

LoungeMachine
02-04-2005, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by Warham
If Bush never got a mandate, then what the hell did Clinton have when he didn't even get 45% of the vote?

But Clinton, But Clinto, But Clinton..........:rolleyes:


jesus H christ when does it end?

LoungeMachine
02-04-2005, 09:26 AM
Originally posted by Warham
Sure, Clinton's plan was to have a giant surplus by taxing us all to death.

And Dubyas "plan" is to tax our children, and grandchildren to death by running up record deficits:rolleyes:


Can we focus on the IDIOTS IN POWER NOW????


Read a newspaper, Clinton's gone. I'm sure I read it somewhere

LoungeMachine
02-04-2005, 09:28 AM
Can one of you Busheep please explain something to me, because Junior sure hasnt spelled it out yet......


HOW DOES DIVERTING 2 TRILLION FROM THE TRUST FUND INTO PRIVATE ACCOUNTS STAVE OFF ANY "CRISIS" ???????

There is no crisis. And if there was, THIS surely isnt how best to avoid it.

fucking pathetic.

Warham
02-04-2005, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by ODShowtime
yeah and it just crippled the economy! :rolleyes:

Seeing as how we were going into a recession when Clinton was leaving office, you aren't too far off.

Nickdfresh
02-04-2005, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Can one of you Busheep please explain something to me, because Junior sure hasnt spelled it out yet......


HOW DOES DIVERTING 2 TRILLION FROM THE TRUST FUND INTO PRIVATE ACCOUNTS STAVE OFF ANY "CRISIS" ???????

There is no crisis. And if there was, THIS surely isnt how best to avoid it.

fucking pathetic.

THere is a crisis, with our 7.5 trillion dollar deficit!:rolleyes:

Nickdfresh
02-04-2005, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Seeing as how we were going into a recession when Clinton was leaving office, you aren't too far off.

Seeing as how we're still there after five years of Bush...

Big Train
02-04-2005, 07:22 PM
Lounge,

There IS a crisis. Diverting the funds is necessary now in order for the growing of the money to begin. Compound interest (as Im sure you know) takes time. Wasting time doesn't equal more money. Saving today averts a building crisis tomorrow.

Warham
02-04-2005, 08:42 PM
A 5.2% unemployment rate is a recession?

Nickdfresh
02-04-2005, 09:15 PM
Originally posted by Warham
A 5.2% unemployment rate is a recession?

Ohh...The unemployment myth! The jobless rate is much higher when you consider the gov't stops counting you as unemployed when your benefits run out after six months, and then you become under employed, if you're lucky.

Warham
02-04-2005, 10:36 PM
Well, if the economy is doing so poorly as you suggest, how come the unemployment rate is decreasing? How come every month, more new jobs have been created?

Are you going to try to tell me these jobs are minimum wage jobs flipping burgers at Wendy's, therefore they don't count? Perhaps Wal-Mart is hiring all these people, eh?

blueturk
02-05-2005, 01:29 AM
This whole "plan" is just more thinly disguised corporate cronyism from Dubya.

JANUARY 4, 2005
Business, free-market advocates face off against AARP, unions

JAMES KUHNHENN

Knight Ridder


WASHINGTON - Even before President Bush elevated Social Security to the top of his national agenda in his State of the Union speech, he'd roused two powerful lobbying forces that had been arming themselves for a fight over the nation's retirement system.

The struggle pits free-market advocates and a coalition from corporate America against organized labor and the country's leading elderly advocacy group, the AARP.

Each side is trying to define the debate. Bush's allies say Social Security will go bankrupt if changes aren't made; his opponents say the administration has fabricated the crisis and that its real aim is to bury the New Deal program, not to save it.

Bush proposes letting workers born after 1949 put part of their Social Security payroll taxes in new private investment accounts. In scope and daring, his proposal rivals President Clinton's ill-fated attempt to overhaul America's health care system in 1993-94.

This lobbying campaign promises to be as massive as the one over Clinton's health care plan. Special interests on both sides have been raising millions of dollars to persuade the public, as well as lawmakers in Washington.

"There are strong forces on both sides of this issue, and I think they're both influencing public opinion," said William Novelli, the AARP's chief executive officer.

Business interests have been awaiting this opportunity for years. More than six years ago, influential business and trade associations joined with corporations such as Hewlett-Packard and Pfizer to form the Alliance for Worker Retirement Security and push for changes along the lines the president now proposes.

Derrick Max, the alliance's executive director, is planning a beefed-up lobbying strategy that includes direct mail to voters and direct pressure on lawmakers.

"We did $5 million in 2002, and this will be multiples of the five," he said.

The alliance's top Social Security priority is ensuring that any remedy doesn't increase business' share of payroll taxes, currently 6.2 percent of wages up to $90,000.

Ideological groups will join in the push for individual accounts.

The Cato Institute, a libertarian policy group, has long been advocating a shift toward investment accounts. One of its biggest backers is the American International Group, an insurance and financial services company whose business includes managing U.S. retirement plans.

The AARP opposes any individual accounts that would divert payroll taxes from the federal trust fund that pays Social Security benefits -- a proposal that forms the core of Bush's plan.

AARP officials said their effort to block Bush's plan would eclipse the $20 million they spent lobbying for the president's Medicare prescription drug bill. Last month, the AARP launched a $5 million newspaper and magazine ad campaign that compared Bush's plan to gambling.

The AARP is getting substantial help from labor unions. The AFL-CIO contends that securities-industry support for Bush's plan is a conflict of interest because the industry would profit from private accounts. Financial services companies could earn anywhere from $40 billion to $280 billion in fees for handling the new accounts, according to various studies.

Union-sponsored pension plans control about $400 billion in assets, and AFL-CIO President John Sweeney has warned financial executives in letters that firms that support Bush's proposal could lose union business.

That arm-twisting may be working. Though the Securities Industry Association is a member of the Alliance for Worker Retirement Security, only a few financial services firms have joined the worker retirement group.

blueturk
02-05-2005, 03:44 AM
Wrong month. I know.