PDA

View Full Version : Bush A No-show At Alabama Base



FORD
02-12-2004, 08:54 PM
http://www.memphisflyer.com/content.asp?ID=2834&onthefly=1

BUSH A NO-SHOW AT ALABAMA BASE, SAYS MEMPHIAN
FedEx Pilot Bob Mintz, backed up by a Carolina colleague, recalls no Dubya at Dannelly AFB in 1972.

JACKSON BAKER | 2/13/2004
Print this Article
Copyright 2004 The Memphis Flyer

MEMPHIS – Two members of the Air National Guard unit that President George W. Bush allegedly served with as a young Guard flyer in 1972 had been told to expect him and were on the lookout for him. He never showed, however; of that both Bob Mintz and Paul Bishop are certain.

The question of Bush’s presence in 1972 at Dannelly Air National Guard base in Montgomery, Alabama – or the lack of it – has become an issue in the 2004 presidential campaign.

Recalls Memphian Mintz, now 63: “I remember that I heard someone was coming to drill with us from Texas. And it was implied that it was somebody with political influence. I was a young bachelor then. I was looking for somebody to prowl around with.” But, says Mintz, that “somebody” -- better known to the world now as the president of the United States -- never showed up at Dannelly in 1972. Nor in 1973, nor at any time that Mintz, a FedEx pilot now and an Eastern Airlines pilot then, when he was a reserve first lieutenant at Dannelly, can remember.

“And I was looking for him,” repeated Mintz, who said that he assumed that Bush “changed his mind and went somewhere else” to do his substitute drill. It was not “somewhere else,” however, but the 187th Air National Guard Tactical squadron at Dannelly to which the young Texas flyer had requested transfer from his regular Texas unit – the reason being Bush’s wish to work in Alabama on the ultimately unsuccessful U.S. Senate campaign of family friend Winton "Red" Blount.

It is the 187th, Mintz’s unit, which was cited, during the 2000 presidential campaign, as the place where Bush completed his military obligation. And it is the 187th that the White House continues to contend that Bush belonged to – as recently as this week, when presidential spokesman Scott McClellan released payroll records and, later, evidence suggesting that Bush’s dental records might be on file at Dannelly.

“There’s no way we wouldn’t have noticed a strange rooster in the henhouse, especially since we were looking for him,” insists Mintz, who has pored over documents relating to the matter now making their way around the Internet. One of these is a piece of correspondence addressed to the 187th’s commanding officer, then Lt. Col. William Turnipseed, concerning Bush’s redeployment.

Mintz remembers a good deal of base scuttlebutt at the time about the letter, which clearly identifies Bush as the transferring party. “It couldn’t be anybody else. No one ever did that again, as far as I know.” In any case, he is certain that nobody else in that time frame, 1972-73, requested such a transfer into Dannelly.

Mintz, who at one time was a registered Republican and in recent years has cast votes in presidential elections for independent Ross Perot and Democrat Al Gore, confesses to “a negative reaction” to what he sees as out-and-out dissembling on President Bush’s part. “You don’t do that as an officer, you don’t do that as a pilot, you don’t do it as an important person, and you don’t do it as a citizen. This guy’s got a lot of nerve.”

Though some accounts reckon the total personnel component of the 187th as consisting of several hundred, the actual flying squadron – that to which Bush was reassigned – numbered only “25 to 30 pilots,” Mintz said. “There’s no doubt. I would have heard of him, seen him, whatever.” Even if Bush, who was trained on a slightly different aircraft than the F4 Phantom jets flown by the squadron, opted not to fly with the unit, he would have had to encounter the rest of the flying personnel at some point, in non-flying formations or drills. “And if he did any flying at all, on whatever kind of craft, that would have involved a great number of supportive personnel. It takes a lot of people to get a plane into the air. But nobody I can think of remembers him.

“I talked to one of my buddies the other day and asked if he could remember Bush at drill at any time, and he said, ‘Naw, ol’ George wasn’t there. And he wasn’t at the Pit, either.’”

The “Pit” was The Snake Pit, a nearby bistro where the squadron’s pilots would gather for frequent after-hours revelry. And the buddy was Bishop, then a lieutenant at Dannelly and now a pilot for Kalitta, a charter airline that in recent months has been flying war materiel into the Iraq Theater of Operations.

“I never saw hide nor hair of Mr. Bush,” confirms Bishop, who now lives in Goldsboro, N.C., is a veteran of Gulf War I and, as a Kalitta pilot, has himself flown frequent supply missions into Iraq and to military facilities at Kuwait. He voted for Bush in 2000 and believes that the Iraq war has served some useful purposes – citing, as the White House does, disarmament actions since pursued by Libyan president Moammar Khadaffi – but he is disgruntled both about aspects of the war and about what he sees as Bush’s lack of truthfulness about his military record.

“I think a commander-in-chief who sends his men off to war ought to be a veteran who has seen the sting of battle,” Bishop says. “In Iraq: we have a bunch of great soldiers, but they are not policemen. I don’t think he [the president] was well advised; right now it’s costing us an American life a day. I’m not a peacenik, but what really bothers me is that of the 500 or so that we’ve lost almost 80 of them were reservists. We’ve got an over-extended Guard and reserve.”

Part of the problem, Bishop thinks, is a disconnect resulting from the president’s own inexperience with combat operations. And he is well beyond annoyed at the White House’s persistent claims that Bush did indeed serve time at Dannelly. Bishop didn’t pay much attention to the claim when candidate Bush first offered it in 2000. But he did after the second Iraq war started and the issue came front and center.

“It bothered me that he wouldn’t ‘fess up and say, Okay, guys, I cut out when the rest of you did your time. He shouldn’t have tried to dance around the subject. I take great exception to that. I spent 39 years defending my country.”

Like his old comrade Mintz, Bishop was a pilot for Eastern Airlines during their reserve service in 1972 at Dannelly. Mintz then lived in Montgomery; Bishop commuted from Atlanta, a two-hour drive away. Mintz and Bishop retired from the Guard with the ranks of lieutenant colonel and colonel, respectively.

Bishop, especially, is bitter about the fate of Eastern, which went bankrupt during the administration of President George H.W. Bush, the current incumbent’s father. “I watched my company dissolve under his policies.” Both Bushes were “children of privilege,” unlike himself and Mintz.

“Our fathers were poor dirt farmers. We would not have been given the same considerations he and his father were,” says Bishop, who maintains that the senior Bush used family and political influence during World War Two to jump himself into naval pilot training ahead of 500 other applicants. “I applaud him for volunteering, but he should have waited his turn like everybody else.”

But, says Bishop, “At least I can give him credit for serving his country.” That is more, he suggested, than can be granted the younger Bush.

Would he consider voting for the president’s reelection? “Naw, this goes to an integrity issue. I like either [John] Kerry or [John] Edwards better.” And who would Mintz be voting for? “Not for any Texas politicians,” was the Memphian’s sardonic answer.

BigBadBrian
02-13-2004, 03:00 PM
Sour grapes. You don't get an honorable discharge by being absent from your unit. Even the base commander there said it's possible Bush was there without him knowing it. Much ado about nothing. :gulp:

FORD
02-13-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Sour grapes. You don't get an honorable discharge by being absent from your unit. Even the base commander there said it's possible Bush was there without him knowing it. Much ado about nothing. :gulp:

If a base commander doesn't know who's serving in his unit, I would have to question whether the man was fit to serve in that position. Not saying he needs to be on first name basis with all of them, but he should have a list of all those in his unit and some documentation of whether or not they actually showed up.

As for the honorable discharge, maybe you or I couldn't get one under those circumstances, but then neither one of us would have gotten IN to the National Guard the way Junior or Dan Quayle did either. Poppy pulled some strings to get Junior in, no doubt he pulled some to get him out as well. Not a big mystery there.

Va Beach VH Fan
02-13-2004, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
You don't get an honorable discharge by being absent from your unit. Even the base commander there said it's possible Bush was there without him knowing it.

So wouldn't that also make it possible that he WASN'T there without him knowing it ???

I think we'd have to see how they're using the term "base commander" also fellas...

You know as well as I do Brian, if they're quoting the Commander of an entire base, that may have thousands of personnel onboard, it's not unrealistic at all that he didn't know Bush was there...

Now if they were actually quoting the Commanding Officer of his Unit, now that's something entirely different....

John Ashcroft
02-13-2004, 05:43 PM
The great thing is, this is all they've got.

Unbelievable that the party is so out of ideas that they are resting the entire election on this bullshit. You guys are so fucked...

knuckleboner
02-13-2004, 06:28 PM
well, mr. AG, believe it or not, the WMD issue will resonate with some voters. you know i don't think bush lied. but still, it will be an issue. much moreso in the election than this idiocy, which the democratic candidate won't bring up.

though, it's completely stupid and embarrassing that the DNC's hyping it. president bush should be judged on how he's run the country as president over his first term, not based on some shit that did or didn't happen 30 years ago...

ELVIS
02-13-2004, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
The great thing is, this is all they've got.

Unbelievable that the party is so out of ideas that they are resting the entire election on this bullshit. You guys are so fucked...

And that's the truth...:p

FORD
02-13-2004, 09:27 PM
The only way we're "fucked" is if the DLC, PNAC/PPI and FAUX news get away with installing their nominee who will likely lose and even if he wins, won't do anything different from his fellow Bonesman, whose fascist agenda he's voted FOR the last 3 years.

BigBadBrian
02-13-2004, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by FORD
If a base commander doesn't know who's serving in his unit, I would have to question whether the man was fit to serve in that position. Not saying he needs to be on first name basis with all of them, but he should have a list of all those in his unit and some documentation of whether or not they actually showed up.



This is where your lack of military experience comes into play. There are thousands of men on some military bases and even hundreds on smaller ones. Commanders ain't gonna know every one by name. You aren't familiar with the military culture, FORD, so accept that as fact and stop spewing of stuff you know nothing about.

rustoffa
02-14-2004, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by FORD
If a base commander doesn't know who's serving in his unit, I would have to question whether the man was fit to serve in that position. Not saying he needs to be on first name basis with all of them, but he should have a list of all those in his unit and some documentation of whether or not they actually showed up.

As for the honorable discharge, maybe you or I couldn't get one under those circumstances, but then neither one of us would have gotten IN to the National Guard the way Junior or Dan Quayle did either. Poppy pulled some strings to get Junior in, no doubt he pulled some to get him out as well. Not a big mystery there.
Hello???His daddy used to run the see-eye-aye.Dubya was deep cover in his parlous tenure there.My man was too busy running running sorties over Nicaragua to worry about any roll-call horseshit.....I bet he's got some killer "sandinista" jokes.:rolleyes:

FORD
02-14-2004, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
This is where your lack of military experience comes into play. There are thousands of men on some military bases and even hundreds on smaller ones. Commanders ain't gonna know every one by name. You aren't familiar with the military culture, FORD, so accept that as fact and stop spewing of stuff you know nothing about.

You misinterpret my response. Obviously the base commander is going to have several subordinates in charge of each unit, but ultimately, is he NOT responsible for the men under his command?

Let's put it this way... if we were to accept this base commander's dismissive answer at face value, then it's possible that he could have a dozen or more AWOL or deserting Guardsmen from his base. If the Pentagon hears about this and the shit rolls down hill, who's gonna get covered in brown first?

ELVIS
02-14-2004, 03:18 AM
Lets put it this way...

BUSH FULFILLED HIS DUTY REQUIREMENTS ADEQUATELY !!

You pussy loser homo marrying liberals are grasping at nothing...:rolleyes:

Va Beach VH Fan
02-14-2004, 09:44 AM
Originally posted by FORD
You misinterpret my response. Obviously the base commander is going to have several subordinates in charge of each unit, but ultimately, is he NOT responsible for the men under his command?


That's not necessarily true either FORD, moreover it's quite likely that the Base Commander wasn't even in Dubya's chain of command...

Many times the Base Commander is a administrative C.O., mainly responsible for the daily operations of the base itself, while the individual C.O.'s of the units would report on it's operational matters to their respective headquarters located elsewhere...

KANE
02-14-2004, 10:23 AM
Keep searchin ford, you'll find something that might hurt the Big Man's rep. someday, your still upset about that hangin chad shit almost fours years ago, lol...you were eatin chicken bologna and generic mac & cheese when slick willy was prez. just like you are now, and like i told ya 2 years ago, you need to quit chirpin and join the service or something, get a fuckin job, there's an idea, you know WORK, as a matter of fact i can give you a job startin around 20 bucks an hour plantin tulips, 2 lips around my johnson, bitch.that was for our commander in chief, you know, the BIG MAN, what your lover al gore never will be, nor lil cry fuck deany biscuit... enjoy life, bait your master..

ELVIS
02-14-2004, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Va Beach VH Fan
That's not necessarily true either FORD, moreover it's quite likely that the Base Commander wasn't even in Dubya's chain of command...

Many times the Base Commander is a administrative C.O., mainly responsible for the daily operations of the base itself, while the individual C.O.'s of the units would report on it's operational matters to their respective headquarters located elsewhere...
Don't try to explain it to him...

Whatever FORD dreams up is how it is...

:elvis:

Va Beach VH Fan
02-14-2004, 01:43 PM
I just try to explain the how military organizations usually run....

I've found that it's very commonplace that civilians, through no fault of their own, don't really understand how the military works....

I think it's especially important to understand that before making judgements such as Bush's ANG timeframe and the personnel involved...

ELVIS
02-14-2004, 01:47 PM
I agree...

I grew up on military bases...

Little Texan
02-14-2004, 06:18 PM
Originally posted by KANE
Keep searchin ford, you'll find something that might hurt the Big Man's rep. someday, your still upset about that hangin chad shit almost fours years ago, lol...you were eatin chicken bologna and generic mac & cheese when slick willy was prez. just like you are now, and like i told ya 2 years ago, you need to quit chirpin and join the service or something, get a fuckin job, there's an idea, you know WORK, as a matter of fact i can give you a job startin around 20 bucks an hour plantin tulips, 2 lips around my johnson, bitch.that was for our commander in chief, you know, the BIG MAN, what your lover al gore never will be, nor lil cry fuck deany biscuit... enjoy life, bait your master..

SAY IT!!!

diamond den™
02-16-2004, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by FORD
http://www.memphisflyer.com/content.asp?ID=2834&onthefly=1

BUSH A NO-SHOW AT ALABAMA BASE, SAYS MEMPHIAN
FedEx Pilot Bob Mintz, backed up by a Carolina colleague, recalls no Dubya at Dannelly AFB in 1972.

JACKSON BAKER | 2/13/2004
Print this Article
Copyright 2004 The Memphis Flyer

MEMPHIS – Two members of the Air National Guard unit that President George W. Bush allegedly served with as a young Guard flyer in 1972 had been told to expect him and were on the lookout for him. He never showed, however; of that both Bob Mintz and Paul Bishop are certain.

The question of Bush’s presence in 1972 at Dannelly Air National Guard base in Montgomery, Alabama – or the lack of it – has become an issue in the 2004 presidential campaign.

Recalls Memphian Mintz, now 63: “I remember that I heard someone was coming to drill with us from Texas. And it was implied that it was somebody with political influence. I was a young bachelor then. I was looking for somebody to prowl around with.” But, says Mintz, that “somebody” -- better known to the world now as the president of the United States -- never showed up at Dannelly in 1972. Nor in 1973, nor at any time that Mintz, a FedEx pilot now and an Eastern Airlines pilot then, when he was a reserve first lieutenant at Dannelly, can remember.

“And I was looking for him,” repeated Mintz, who said that he assumed that Bush “changed his mind and went somewhere else” to do his substitute drill. It was not “somewhere else,” however, but the 187th Air National Guard Tactical squadron at Dannelly to which the young Texas flyer had requested transfer from his regular Texas unit – the reason being Bush’s wish to work in Alabama on the ultimately unsuccessful U.S. Senate campaign of family friend Winton "Red" Blount.

It is the 187th, Mintz’s unit, which was cited, during the 2000 presidential campaign, as the place where Bush completed his military obligation. And it is the 187th that the White House continues to contend that Bush belonged to – as recently as this week, when presidential spokesman Scott McClellan released payroll records and, later, evidence suggesting that Bush’s dental records might be on file at Dannelly.

“There’s no way we wouldn’t have noticed a strange rooster in the henhouse, especially since we were looking for him,” insists Mintz, who has pored over documents relating to the matter now making their way around the Internet. One of these is a piece of correspondence addressed to the 187th’s commanding officer, then Lt. Col. William Turnipseed, concerning Bush’s redeployment.

Mintz remembers a good deal of base scuttlebutt at the time about the letter, which clearly identifies Bush as the transferring party. “It couldn’t be anybody else. No one ever did that again, as far as I know.” In any case, he is certain that nobody else in that time frame, 1972-73, requested such a transfer into Dannelly.

Mintz, who at one time was a registered Republican and in recent years has cast votes in presidential elections for independent Ross Perot and Democrat Al Gore, confesses to “a negative reaction” to what he sees as out-and-out dissembling on President Bush’s part. “You don’t do that as an officer, you don’t do that as a pilot, you don’t do it as an important person, and you don’t do it as a citizen. This guy’s got a lot of nerve.”

Though some accounts reckon the total personnel component of the 187th as consisting of several hundred, the actual flying squadron – that to which Bush was reassigned – numbered only “25 to 30 pilots,” Mintz said. “There’s no doubt. I would have heard of him, seen him, whatever.” Even if Bush, who was trained on a slightly different aircraft than the F4 Phantom jets flown by the squadron, opted not to fly with the unit, he would have had to encounter the rest of the flying personnel at some point, in non-flying formations or drills. “And if he did any flying at all, on whatever kind of craft, that would have involved a great number of supportive personnel. It takes a lot of people to get a plane into the air. But nobody I can think of remembers him.

“I talked to one of my buddies the other day and asked if he could remember Bush at drill at any time, and he said, ‘Naw, ol’ George wasn’t there. And he wasn’t at the Pit, either.’”

The “Pit” was The Snake Pit, a nearby bistro where the squadron’s pilots would gather for frequent after-hours revelry. And the buddy was Bishop, then a lieutenant at Dannelly and now a pilot for Kalitta, a charter airline that in recent months has been flying war materiel into the Iraq Theater of Operations.

“I never saw hide nor hair of Mr. Bush,” confirms Bishop, who now lives in Goldsboro, N.C., is a veteran of Gulf War I and, as a Kalitta pilot, has himself flown frequent supply missions into Iraq and to military facilities at Kuwait. He voted for Bush in 2000 and believes that the Iraq war has served some useful purposes – citing, as the White House does, disarmament actions since pursued by Libyan president Moammar Khadaffi – but he is disgruntled both about aspects of the war and about what he sees as Bush’s lack of truthfulness about his military record.

“I think a commander-in-chief who sends his men off to war ought to be a veteran who has seen the sting of battle,” Bishop says. “In Iraq: we have a bunch of great soldiers, but they are not policemen. I don’t think he [the president] was well advised; right now it’s costing us an American life a day. I’m not a peacenik, but what really bothers me is that of the 500 or so that we’ve lost almost 80 of them were reservists. We’ve got an over-extended Guard and reserve.”

Part of the problem, Bishop thinks, is a disconnect resulting from the president’s own inexperience with combat operations. And he is well beyond annoyed at the White House’s persistent claims that Bush did indeed serve time at Dannelly. Bishop didn’t pay much attention to the claim when candidate Bush first offered it in 2000. But he did after the second Iraq war started and the issue came front and center.

“It bothered me that he wouldn’t ‘fess up and say, Okay, guys, I cut out when the rest of you did your time. He shouldn’t have tried to dance around the subject. I take great exception to that. I spent 39 years defending my country.”

Like his old comrade Mintz, Bishop was a pilot for Eastern Airlines during their reserve service in 1972 at Dannelly. Mintz then lived in Montgomery; Bishop commuted from Atlanta, a two-hour drive away. Mintz and Bishop retired from the Guard with the ranks of lieutenant colonel and colonel, respectively.

Bishop, especially, is bitter about the fate of Eastern, which went bankrupt during the administration of President George H.W. Bush, the current incumbent’s father. “I watched my company dissolve under his policies.” Both Bushes were “children of privilege,” unlike himself and Mintz.

“Our fathers were poor dirt farmers. We would not have been given the same considerations he and his father were,” says Bishop, who maintains that the senior Bush used family and political influence during World War Two to jump himself into naval pilot training ahead of 500 other applicants. “I applaud him for volunteering, but he should have waited his turn like everybody else.”

But, says Bishop, “At least I can give him credit for serving his country.” That is more, he suggested, than can be granted the younger Bush.

Would he consider voting for the president’s reelection? “Naw, this goes to an integrity issue. I like either [John] Kerry or [John] Edwards better.” And who would Mintz be voting for? “Not for any Texas politicians,” was the Memphian’s sardonic answer.

ALBUM · Dream Police (1979)
· Greatest Hits (1991)


LYRICS Words and music by rick nielsen

The dream police, they live inside of my head.
The dream police, they come to me in my bed.
The dream police, they’re coming to arrest me, oh no.

You know that talk is cheap, and those rumors ain’t nice.
And when I fall asleep I don’t think I’ll survive the night, the night.

’cause they’re waiting for me.
They’re looking for me.
Ev’ry single night they’re driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.

The dream police, they live inside of my head.
(live inside of my head.)
The dream police, they come to me in my bed.
(come to me in my bed.)
The dream police, they’re coming to arrest me, oh no.

Well, I can’t tell lies, ’cause they’re listening to me.
And when I fall asleep, bet they’re spying on me tonight, tonight.

’cause they’re waiting for me.
They’re looking for me.
Ev’ry single night they’re driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.

I try to sleep, they’re wide awake, they won’t leave me alone.
They don’t get paid to take vacations, or let me alone.
They spy on me, I try to hide, they won’t let me alone.
They persecute me, they’re the judge and jury all in one.

’cause they’re waiting for me.
They’re looking for me.
Ev’ry single night they’re driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.

The dream police, they live inside of my head.
The dream police, they come to me in my bed.
The dream police, they’re coming to arrest me.


:)