Life without college

[academic punk]

This scares me more than anything else in this forum...

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/15/life.without.college/index.html

A new survey of young adults on their plans after high school finds they understand the limitations of life without a college degree, but often lack the money, motivation or guidance to pursue higher education.

The survey, conducted by the nonpartisan research group Public Agenda, also shows that most young people who forgo college find themselves falling into jobs by chance. Nearly half of the respondents who didn't attend college said their current job was "just a job to get by" and only 15 percent viewed their jobs as promising careers.

The decision not to attend college carries more significance in a shifting economy with fewer well-paying jobs available for less-skilled workers. Manufacturing jobs have been steadily declining, and in fact, the economy has lost more than 2.5 million manufacturing jobs over the past four years.

That not only represents 15 percent of total manufacturing jobs in this country, but the trend is growing as the United States continues to outsource factory jobs and sign often one-sided free trade agreements. And while service jobs have been increasing, many of those new jobs are in health and educational services, areas that require at least some post-high school training.

Even a job as a police officer -- once a good career for someone with only a high school degree -- is growing out of reach as police departments seek to recruit more college graduates, noted Jean Johnson, senior vice president and director of programs at Public Agenda.

"Lots of people aren't academically inclined and there are still lots of ways to earn a living," Johnson said. "But what you see in these young people is it's a very hit-or-miss road they're on."

The most recent available statistics from the U.S. Department of Labor show the unemployment rate for high school graduates with no college experience was 14 percent. The unemployment rate in 2003 for young people with college degrees, in contrast, was 7 percent.

While young people overwhelmingly agreed on the value of a college education, about half of those who didn't go on to college said they couldn't afford to go, had too many other responsibilities or wanted to start working to earn money. Others, however, said the most important reason for skipping college was that their grades and motivation were too low, their teachers hadn't prepared them well or their career goals did not require a college degree.

Most of the young people surveyed believe their financial situation will improve as they get older, and that eventually they will be better off than their parents. "If you look at statistics about their economic prospects, it's not really as promising," Johnson said. "Yet personally, they are optimistic."

But their reasons for optimism may diminish as these young people face the reality of a changing job market.

[Little_Skittles]

That is exactly why high school stresses the importance of knowing what field you wish to go into. Just the other day at our sophmore meeting we were discussing how seniors go through high school, then say wait i want to do this and didn't take any courses to prepare them for that job market.

People scholarships are available if you are poor. Tons of them for everything and everyone just start asking questions.

[academic punk]

does high school stress the importance of knowing what field you want to go into? I just rmember a lot of shitty classes that seemed to have no relevance to what any of us wanted to do with our lives.

Then again, the time I spent in college really molded me into the person I am. I grew up in the 'burbs, and had never even heard or thought about things like "feminism", "prochoice", even "politics".

I would never have developed an appreciation for art history, literature, or ecology without the three years I spent at Vassar (which thanks to scholarships, cost me less than even a state school).

And my whole world is much richer for the year I spent abroad in Edinburgh, Scotland. Invaluable and irreplaceable.

Even if your college experience has no direct correlation to what you wind up doing for a living, it's still something that everyone should experience. You have a;ll the rest of your life to work.

[Little_Skittles]

that' right. yes they do nowadays stress the importance of your future 4 short years and we're out on our own.

[Little_Skittles]

that' right. yes they do nowadays stress the importance of your future 4 short years and we're out on our own.

[academic punk]

here's an e-mail from a friend who I also forwarded this article to...

Down in D.C., the Dept. of Education is making a big effort to tout "No
Child Left Behind." Not only are there enormous banners atop some of
the buildings emblazoned with WWW.NOCHILDLEFTBEHIND.GOV, every entrance to the Education building--and there are many--has a new entryway constructed, like large versions of the vestibules that restaurants put up in winter to keep out drafts. There are dozens of these things, two story high red schoolhouses with the No Child Left Behind logo, to remind everyone who enters the building that school is important, and so is the Bush administration's policy.

I hope you are relieved to know that our government is taking
substantive action to correct the problem you identified in your email.

Chris

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by academic punk
here's an e-mail from a friend who I also forwarded this article to...

Down in D.C., the Dept. of Education is making a big effort to tout "No
Child Left Behind." Not only are there enormous banners atop some of
the buildings emblazoned with WWW.NOCHILDLEFTBEHIND.GOV, every entrance to the Education building--and there are many--has a new entryway constructed, like large versions of the vestibules that restaurants put up in winter to keep out drafts. There are dozens of these things, two story high red schoolhouses with the No Child Left Behind logo, to remind everyone who enters the building that school is important, and so is the Bush administration's policy.

I hope you are relieved to know that our government is taking
substantive action to correct the problem you identified in your email.

Chris

No Child Left Behind is a bunch of horseshit. All it has done is to further dumb-down the education system as a whole.

The recurring theme of it is States give standardized tests, many students cannot pass them because they went to underfunded schools. OR districts throw the test scores by faking grades or use lenient grading to make themselves look good.

The States begin to drop standards and the higher level honors students suffer because they are unable attend classes with the trend towards homogenization, and poor students that only want to learn a trade must meet the same standards as an Ivy League recruit that is inclined towards school work. It's just really stupid and self-defeating to put everyone in the same category.

We need to take a look at what European educators do such as in Germany, where students are given aptitude tests early and are educated accordingly to their interests, skills, and goals.

[DrMaddVibe]

There is no way you can compare any European nation's education systems to ours. They practice a loose system of socialism and their taxes go towards a further education as well as socialized medicine.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
There is no way you can compare any European nation's education systems to ours. They practice a loose system of socialism and their taxes go towards a further education as well as socialized medicine.

I don't think that's true exactly. I don't know, but I've heard we actually spend the most on secondary education than any other nation. And I realize that comparisons are difficult since most nations that score above the US in math and the sciences deceptively test only their best students. We test a statistical sampling of our entire school population. It's like going to the Olympics with amateurs and playing the professionals.

[DrMaddVibe]

Kinda like the Russian hockey teams of yesteryear?

Gimmie a break.

[academic punk]

and with each passing day we ARE developing more and more into a nation of amateurs!

[capnfrantic]

" but the trend is growing as the United States continues to outsource factory jobs and sign often one-sided free trade agreements."

Yeah that makes sense, we don't have any factory jobs so why should I go to college?

"Others, however, said the most important reason for skipping college was that their grades and motivation were too low, their teachers hadn't prepared them well or their career goals did not require a college degree"

Can you say study?Teachers not motivating? How would you like to have a masters degree and make 35K a year and be held accountable for preparing kids half of don't give a shit? Career goals without a degree? Must be talking about those factory jobs we gave away....

"No Child Left Behind is a bunch of horseshit."

I agree, I'm not waiting for the Gov't to make my kid sucessful. I am taking that responsibility on myself.

Push the blame somewhere just don't let it fall in your lap.....

[academic punk]

I have no idea if the above post is critical or in agreement with the article. Genius!!!

no, really...are you saying a colege degree isn't worthwhile, b/c of the careers it can give these days (you're not entirely wrong if you are)

or that the degree and diploma are important for the future b/c the job prospects without it are worse than ever? (they are)

are you saying the educaiton system is lacking? (it is)

are you saying you'll take a more active hand in your child's upbringing and not just shoving him/her on the bus and tell him, "come back home smarter" (good for you!)

"Is our children learning?"

Who said it? who said it? first correct response wins a boysenbery jelly bean...

[capnfrantic]

No
Yes
Yes
I have to...NO Choice
Can't do jelly beans...

I just think the blame is not put where it should be alot of times.There is still alot of opportunity for kids out there,but too many excuses why they can't take advantage of it. JMO

[academic punk]

so where should hte balme be? the parents? what sort of opportunities, what sort of excuses? pray tell, i'm interested...

[capnfrantic]

Parents are a good start...If you want to go to college and do your part in high school, there are all kinds of grants/scholarships out there.Excuses-
"with fewer well-paying jobs available for less-skilled workers. Manufacturing jobs have been steadily declining, and in fact, the economy has lost more than 2.5 million manufacturing jobs over the past four years."

Are they saying Manufacturing jobs are well paid? Not here! Do you think everyone aspires to have a manufacturing job? I wander if the import business has grown? Nothing is being made here so its got to get here somehow....Could there be opportunities there? I don't mean to pick this thing apart, but there is another side to consider.

[Little_Skittles]

No Child Left Behind is a bunch of horseshit. Damn straight.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by academic punk

And my whole world is much richer for the year I spent abroad in Edinburgh, Scotland. Invaluable and irreplaceable.



And how does Christianity line up to your education ??

Or does it ??

[Nitro Express]

College degrees if you had a pretty good GPA used to give you a shot at climbing the corporate ladder. The typical way of getting into management was you got your bachelors degree, hired on with some company, then if they liked you, they paid for you to get an MBA and then you climbed the ladder.

Those days are pretty much over.

It's not just the manufacturing we are outsourcing. What American companies are really doing are simply buying a Chinese product and slapping a brandname on it. The result is low paying jobs and very high paying jobs at the top for a few people.

We have so many college graduates in the US right now who are constantly looking for work, people are now wondering if the investment in school is worth it.

Many people are going to have to create their own job by starting their own business. For many, skipping college and investing the money in their own business might not be such a bad idea. Since a sheepskin doesn't mean as much in the marketplace as it once did and there are other ways to learn a trade thanks to networks and computers, in many ways a college education is indeed outdated.

[Nitro Express]

I think Americans need to go back to the old way of thinking. You make it happen yourself. The information is there and cheaper than ever thanks to computers. The corrupt school districts aren't really going to education anyone. College is great if you want a technical education because they have the equipment and labs. There still is a place for universities but there are just so many useless degrees. We need more hard working entreprenuers, instead of egoed out college educated beurocrats who produce nothing as far as adding to the gross domestic product but incread our taxes because that's whaty pays their salery.

For this reason, I see some of the college education as antiproductive.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
I think Americans need to go back to the old way of thinking. You make it happen yourself. The information is there and cheaper than ever thanks to computers. The corrupt school districts aren't really going to education anyone. College is great if you want a technical education because they have the equipment and labs. There still is a place for universities but there are just so many useless degrees. We need more hard working entreprenuers, instead of egoed out college educated beurocrats who produce nothing as far as adding to the gross domestic product but incread our taxes because that's whaty pays their salery.

For this reason, I see some of the college education as antiproductive.

So basically education should just consist of skill training at all levels. ITT Technical Institute should replace Harvard and all critical, higher level thought should be abandoned? Sounds like we'e become a nation of morons.

[SweetSecrets]

Originally posted by academic punk

While young people overwhelmingly agreed on the value of a college education, about half of those who didn't go on to college said they couldn't afford to go, had too many other responsibilities or wanted to start working to earn money. Others, however, said the most important reason for skipping college was that their grades and motivation were too low, their teachers hadn't prepared them well or their career goals did not require a college degree.



There is a lot to comment on for this one...

Well, I am in college right now getting my Masters of Science. I have been in school now since the dawn of time. I started the University of Tennessee with virtually no money due to a tragedy in the family. I was able to receive grants and loans to do so (even for OUT OF STATE tuition). I will owe over $30,000 to pay off for the next ten years, but with the job offers I've had in Australia, this should be no drama. Not to mention, this debt is not considered the same kind of debt as "credit card debt." You can still get approved for house loans with college school debt. If you lose your job, you may stop paying them until you find one. They also adjust the amount you pay according to how much you make, so that it is not too much of a burdon on you. Yea it sucks to be in debt, but this is not the usual definition of debt that we think of in this country.

The teenager, even in the most dire financial conditions, can afford to go to school with the help of grants and loans...EVEN IF THEY WANT TO GO OUT OF STATE. It is just a matter of getting off your ass and finding the governement resources to do so. If you are a minority (which often maintain the countries lower SES), it is even easier to go! There is no excuse.

Now, the meaning of a college degree is a whole other question. I think money is wasted on the types of education received while in college. Based on my experience, I would say the first year of college is a big waste of time as it seemed to me to be just a review of high school. For those of us who actually got something out of high school, that freshman year of college (if out of state, like me) was simply, $10,000 down the drain. Therefore, I think that the college Bachelors degree should be an average of three years to complete, rather than four. This is what many other countries do. You can become a certified computer engineer in Australia in only three years, while its taken me five to get my Bachelors of science in education. Or, the first of the four years should be set asidie for students to work in the field of various work environments in which they are interested in possibly seeking degree. In this way, they will have a better idea of knowing exactly what career choice will be most fullfilling, and less likely to feel like they were forced into a decision too quickly.

Also, I think my program of study is a good one; however, even I can say that half of the classes I have taken in the program were a waste. I have gained more experience from my student teaching and internship then any of my classes. Although the theory and philosophy I learned about in my classes was necessary, I didn't need 5 classes to teach me the same thing in greater detail or to prove to professors that I can write professionally.

It is obvious that our country places higher esteem on the label of degree rather than the understanding gained from it. We just assume that because you made a 31 on the ACT, you are a genious and should go to HARVARD...or if you made a 4.0 in college, you are worthy of the very best job. I think there is something really wrong with that, considering that those who have to struggle through things more to make better grades, usually show better perserverance and dedication in their careers.

THIS IS A GREAT TOPIC ACADEMIC PUNK! I COULD WRITE ABOUT THIS FOREVER! THANKS :)

[SweetSecrets]

Originally posted by academic punk
This scares me more than anything else in this forum...

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/15/life.without.college/index.html

Others, however, said the most important reason for skipping college was that their grades and motivation were too low, their teachers hadn't prepared them well or their career goals did not require a college degree.



Well, for those, that is just a matter of making the wrong decisions, and not trying hard in school. This could be due to parents and teachers (and society) failing to teach children the importance of school to their future...or stress from outside forces. Once you reach a certain age in high school; however, the excuse of "my family is divorced" is not good enough to back your reason for failing all your classes. Adults (parents and teachers) must hold high expectations for their children in order to push them forward into using their own self determination.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
So basically education should just consist of skill training at all levels. ITT Technical Institute should replace Harvard and all critical, higher level thought should be abandoned? Sounds like we'e become a nation of morons.

This happens to be a serious problem that you've hit upon: college enrollment is down significantly in this country.

one of the reasons is the view of college simply being a means to an end, rather than university education as a vehicle of higher education. With curriculums like philosophy, the maths and sciences receiving less funding, THE BEST AND BRIGHTEST - both US and foreign citizens - are no longer attending and enrolling in this country's educational institues - they're going overseas. This is going to have massive repercussions on this country and the world in the long-term: we will no longer have the cutting edge and the most advance minds for any of these disciplines (the repercussions of the foreign view of our governments foriegn policy are also being felt).

The efficiency of our higher educational institutes IS a problem, as sweet secrets pointed out. I do wonder if colleges and universities are reluctant to overhaul the 4-year program and compress it into a 3-year situation, because simply of the lost revenue. (and it is significant: figure a state university, for example, that charges $10,000 a year in tuition, with 5,000 students in each graduating year...that's FIFTY MILLION DOLLARS RIGHT THERE - NOT EVEN INCLUDING BOOKS, SUPPLIES, AND HOUSING.)

Conversely, I do think college should be a time of self-discovery and "broadening one's mind". Would I ever have ANY familiarity with archeology if not for my freshman year requirements (aside from Indiana Jones, yo)? For architecture? These things are getting lost as this country's education system turns more and more into the DeVry Institute with each passing year.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by academic punk
This happens to be a serious problem that you've hit upon: college enrollment is down significantly in this country.

one of the reasons is the view of college simply being a means to an end...


A society that worships wealth without knowledge is doomed to implode.

[Nickdfresh]

I mean really, could the guy in my avatar have become such a wrestling and Halloween mask phenom if he had not majored in bio-mechanics at Princeton?:D

[academic punk]

As the title of one of my favorite kid-cereals states, "Ka-boom".

[Dr. Love]

I know a few people like this. They don't want to go to school. They're happy living with mommy and daddy their whole lives.

It's because they have no idea what it's like to have to work for a living. Almost all of them have had everything handed to them.

[smaz]

I'm reading this at college :)

Applying to college almost was part of leaving school; we got given the forms for the two local colleges, spent a few lessons talking about it etc. If you applied for one of those two colleges, they'd come to our school for a meeting, to accept your place and pick which course/s you'd be doing.

As for costs. I paid £60/$120 roughly for a two year course in computing, and that fee includes anything I need for the course like books.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by smaz
I'm reading this at college :)

Applying to college almost was part of leaving school; we got given the forms for the two local colleges, spent a few lessons talking about it etc. If you applied for one of those two colleges, they'd come to our school for a meeting, to accept your place and pick which course/s you'd be doing.

As for costs. I paid £60/$120 roughly for a two year course in computing, and that fee includes anything I need for the course like books.

Good luck at school SMAZ.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by smaz
I'm reading this at college :)

Applying to college almost was part of leaving school; we got given the forms for the two local colleges, spent a few lessons talking about it etc. If you applied for one of those two colleges, they'd come to our school for a meeting, to accept your place and pick which course/s you'd be doing.

As for costs. I paid £60/$120 roughly for a two year course in computing, and that fee includes anything I need for the course like books.

That's all fine and well, but can you say YOU live in an "ownership society"? HMMMM?

[smaz]

Originally posted by academic punk
That's all fine and well, but can you say YOU live in an "ownership society"? HMMMM?

I can say that. Just open my mouth and talk. But I live in a house.

Ownership Society???

[academic punk]

Originally posted by smaz
I can say that. Just open my mouth and talk. But I live in a house.

Ownership Society???


That's Bushies euphamism for his plan to take away medicare and employers legal commitment to providing medical insurance. The logic being you get to go out now and buy your own insurance.

Thus, you "own" it. It's this same logic that is the driving force for removing legal statutes for class-action lawsuits (the responsibility from dropping dead from Vioxx? yours.), his plan for social security overhaul, etc etc.

It's a great time to be an American! It's not infrequently I long for my college days at the University of Edinburgh...