Seperation of Church and State: The Myth

[Cathedral]

The Myth of
the Separation of Church and State

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Anytime religion is mentioned within the confines of government today people cry, "Separation of Church and State". Many people think this statement appears in the first amendment of the U.S. Constitution and therefore must be strictly enforced. However, the words: "separation", "church", and "state" do not even appear in the first amendment. The first amendment reads, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." The statement about a wall of separation between church and state was made in a letter on January 1, 1802, by Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist Association of Connecticut. The congregation heard a widespread rumor that the Congregationalists, another denomination, were to become the national religion. This was very alarming to people who knew about religious persecution in England by the state established church. Jefferson made it clear in his letter to the Danbury Congregation that the separation was to be that government would not establish a national religion or dictate to men how to worship God. Jefferson's letter from which the phrase "separation of church and state" was taken affirmed first amendment rights. Jefferson wrote:

I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State. (1)
The reason Jefferson choose the expression "separation of church and state" was because he was addressing a Baptist congregation; a denomination of which he was not a member. Jefferson wanted to remove all fears that the state would make dictates to the church. He was establishing common ground with the Baptists by borrowing the words of Roger Williams, one of the Baptist's own prominent preachers. Williams had said:
When they have opened a gap in the hedge or wall of separation between the garden of the Church and the wilderness of the world, God hath ever broke down the wall itself, removed the candlestick, and made his garden a wilderness, as at this day. And that there fore if He will eer please to restore His garden and paradise again, it must of necessity be walled in peculiarly unto Himself from the world...(2)

The "wall" was understood as one-directional; its purpose was to protect the church from the state. The world was not to corrupt the church, yet the church was free to teach the people Biblical values.

The American people knew what would happen if the State established the Church like in England. Even though it was not recent history to them, they knew that England went so far as forbidding worship in private homes and sponsoring all church activities and keeping people under strict dictates. They were forced to go to the state established church and do things that were contrary to their conscience. No other churches were allowed, and mandatory attendance of the established church was compelled under the Conventicle Act of 1665. Failure to comply would result in imprisonment and torture. The people did not want freedom from religion, but freedom of religion. The only real reason to separate the church from the state would be to instill a new morality and establish a new system of beliefs. Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the Bible was the source of this foundation. They believed that God's ways were much higher than Man's ways and held firmly that the Bible was the absolute standard of truth and used the Bible as a source to form our government.

There is no such thing as a pluralistic society. There will always be one dominant view, otherwise it will be in transition from one belief system to another. Therefore, to say Biblical principles should not be allowed in government and school is to either be ignorant of the historic intent of the founding fathers, or blatantly bigoted against Christianity.

Each form of government has a guiding principle: monarchy in which the guiding principle is honor; aristocracy in which the guiding principle is moderation; republican democracy in which the guiding principle is virtue; despotism in which the guiding principle is fear. Without people of the United States upholding good moral conduct, society soon degenerates into a corrupt system where people misuse the authority of government to obtain what they want at the expense of others. The U.S. Constitution is the form of our government, but the power is in the virtue of the people. The virtue desired of the people is shown in the Bible. This is why Biblical morality was taught in public schools until the early 1960's. Government officials were required to declare their belief in God even to be allowed to hold a public office until a case in the U.S. Supreme Court called Torcaso v. Watkins (Oct. 1960). God was seen as the author of natural law and morality. If one did not believe in God one could not operate from a proper moral base. And by not having a foundation from which to work, one would destroy the community. The two primary places where morality is taught are the family and the church. The church was allowed to influence the government in righteousness an d justice so that virtue would be upheld. Not allowing the church to influence the state is detrimental to the country and destroys our foundation of righteousness and justice. It is absolutely necessary for the church to influence the state in virtue because without virtue our government will crumble -- the representatives will look after their own good instead of the country's.

Government was never meant to be our master as in a ruthless monarchy or dictatorship. Instead, it was to be our servant. The founding fathers believed that the people have full power to govern themselves and that people chose to give up some of their rights for the general good and the protection of rights. Each person should be self-governed and this is why virtue is so important. Government was meant to serve the people by protecting their liberty and rights, not serve by an enormous amount of social programs. The authors of the Constitution wanted the government to have as little power as possible so that if authority was misused it would not cause as much damage. Yet they wanted government to have enough authority to protect the rights of the people. The worldview at the time of the founding of our government was a view held by the Bible: that Man's heart is corrupt and if the opportunity to advance oneself at the expense of another arose, more often than not, we would choose to do so. They firmly believed this and that's why an enormous effort to set up checks and balances took place. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. They wanted to make certain that no man could take away rights given by God. They also did not set up the government as a true democracy, because they believed, as mentioned earlier, Man tends towards wickedness. Just because the majority wants something does not mean that it should be granted, because the majority could easily err. Government was not to be run by whatever the majority wanted but instead by principle, specifically the principles of the Bible.

Our U.S. Constitution was founded on Biblical principles and it was the intention of the authors for this to be a Christian nation. The Constitution had 55 people work upon it, of which 52 were evangelical Christians.(3) We can go back in history and look at what the founding fathers wrote to know where they were getting their ideas. This is exactly what two professors did. Donald Lutz and Charles Hyneman reviewed an estimated 15,000 items with explicit political content printed between 1760 and 1805 and from these items they identified 3,154 references to other sources. The source they most often quoted was the Bible, accounting for 34% of all citations. Sixty percent of all quotes came from men who used the Bible to form their conclusions. That means that 94% of all quotes by the founding fathers were based on the Bible. The founding fathers took ideas from the Bible and incorporated them into our government. If it was their intention to separate the state and church they would never have taken principles from the Bible and put them into our government. An example of an idea taken from the Bible and then incorporated into our government is found in Isaiah 33:22 which says, "For the Lord is our judge, the Lord is our lawgiver, the Lord is our king..." The founding fathers took this scripture and made three major branches in our government: judicial, legislative, and executive. As mentioned earlier, the founding fathers strongly believed that Man was by nature corrupt and therefore it was necessary to separate the powers of the government. For instance, the President has the power to execute laws but not make them, and Congress has the power to make laws but not to judge the people. The simple principle of checks and balances came from the Bible to protect people from tyranny. The President of the United States is free to influence Congress, although he can not exercise authority over it because they are separated. Since this is true, why should the church not be allowed to influence the state? People have read too much into the phrase "separation of church and state", which is to be a separation of civil authority from ecclesiastical authority, not moral values. Congress has passed laws that it is illegal to murder and steal, which is the legislation of morality. These standards of morality are found in the Bible. Should we remove them from law because the church should be separated from the state?

Our founding fathers who formed the government also formed the educational system of the day. John Witherspoon did not attend the Constitutional Convention although he was President of New Jersey College in 1768 (known as Princeton since 1896) and a signer of the Declaration of Independence. His influence on the Constitution was far ranging in that he taught nine of fifty-five original delegates. He fought firmly for religious freedom and said, "God grant that in America true religion and civil liberty may be inseparable and that unjust attempts to destroy the one may in the issue tend to the support and establishment of both."(4)

In October 1961 the Supreme Court of the United States removed prayer from schools in a case called Engel v. Vitale. The case said that because the U.S. Constitution prohibits any law respecting an establishment of religion officials of public schools may not compose public prayer even if the prayer is denominationally neutral, and that pupils may choose to remain silent or be excused while the prayer is being recited. For 185 years prayer was allowed in public and the Constitutional Convention itself was opened with prayer. If the founding fathers didn't want prayer in government why did they pray publicly in official meetings? It is sometimes said that it is permissible to pray in school as long as it is silent. Although, "In Omaha, Nebraska, 10-year old James Gierke was prohibited from reading his Bible silently during free time... the boy was forbidden by his teacher to open his Bible at school and was told doing so was against the law."(4) The U.S. Supreme Court with no precedent in any court history said prayer will be removed from school. Yet the Supreme Court in January, 1844 in a case named Vidal v. Girard's Executors, a school was to be built in which no ecclesiastic, missionary, or minister of any sect whatsoever was to be allowed to even step on the property of the school. They argued over whether a layman could teach or not, but they agreed that, "...there is an obligation to teach what the Bible alone can teach, viz. a pure system of morality." This has been the precedent throughout 185 years. Although this case is from 1844, it illustrates the point. The prayer in question was not even lengthy or denominationally geared. It was this: "Almighty God, we acknowledge our dependence upon Thee, and we beg Thy blessings upon us, our parents, our teachers and our Country." What price have we paid by removing this simple acknowledgment of God's protecting hand in our lives? Birth rates for unwed girls from 15-19; sexually transmitted diseases among 10-14 year olds; pre-marital sex increased; violent crime; adolescent homicide have all gone up considerably from 1961 to the 1990's -- even after taking into account population growth. The Bible, before 1961, was used extensively in curriculum. After the Bible was removed, scholastic aptitude test scores dropped considerably.

There is no such thing as a pluralistic society; there will always be one dominant view. Someone's morality is going to be taught -- but whose? Secular Humanism is a religion that teaches that through Man's ability we will reach universal peace and unity and make heaven on earth. They promote a way of life that systematically excludes God and all religion in the traditional sense. That Man is the highest point to which nature has evolved, and he can rely on only himself and that the universe was not created, but instead is self-existing. They believe that Man has the potential to be good in and of himself. All of this of course is in direct conflict with not only the teachings of the Bible but even the lessons of history. In June 1961 in a case called Torcaso v. Watkins, the U.S. Supreme Court stated, "Among religions in this country which do not teach what would generally be considered a belief in the existence of God are Buddhism, Taoism, Ethical Culture, Secular Humanism and others." The Supreme Court declared Secular Humanism to be a religion. The American Humanist Association certifies counselors who enjoy the same legal status as ordained ministers. Since the Supreme Court has said that Secular Humanism is a religion, why is it being allowed to be taught in schools? The removal of public prayer of those who wish to participate is, in effect, establishing the religion of Humanism over Christianity. This is exactly what our founding fathers tried to stop from happening with the first amendment.

1. Thomas Jefferson, Jefferson Writings, Merrill D. Peterson, ed. (NY: Literary Classics of the United States, Inc., 1984), p. 510, January 1, 1802.

2. John Eidsmoe, Christianity and the Constitution (MI: Baker Book House, 1987), p. 243.

3. M.E. Bradford, A Worthy Company: Brief Lives of the Framers of the United States Constitution (Marlborough, N.H.: Plymouth Rock Foundation, 1982), p. 4-5.

4. John Witherspoon, "Sermon on the Dominion of Providence over the Passions of Men" May 17, 1776; quoted and Cited by Collins, President Witherspoon, I:197-98.

[Angel]

Thanks, Cat. Another reason why I'm glad to be North of the Border. ;)

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Angel
Thanks, Cat. Another reason why I'm glad to be North of the Border. ;)

We're glad you're there too. Believe it, Twinkie Cheeks. ;)


:D :gulp:

[Angel]

I love ya too hon! ;) :tits:

[ELVIS]

Did you read this you liberals ??

When Jeferson said "separation of church and state", he was addressing a Baptist congregation, and he wanted to remove all fears that the state would make dictates to the church...

Nothing more...

It had nothing to do with removing any mention of God from American society, as many liberals are seeking to do today...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral
The Myth of
the Separation of Church and State

Our founding fathers were God-fearing men who understood that for a country to stand it must have a solid foundation; the Bible was the source of this foundation. They believed that God's ways were much higher than Man's ways and held firmly that the Bible was the absolute standard of truth and used the Bible as a source to form our government.


I though it was against the Ten Commandments to lie!? :confused: I think the "unknown" author of this piece of logically flawed crap is in deep trouble before the eyes of his maker.

Most of the 'founding fathers' were anything but "Christians," at least as to how you guys would define them. ;)

[Guitar Shark]

Who wrote this crap?

[Cathedral]

I found this at http://www.noapathy.org

I don't think it is crap, I think it points out one very important thing.
The words "seperation", "church" and "state" do not exist in the 1st Ammendment.

And Nick, The founding fathers were not "Christians" as it is defined today, but this country was indeed founded on Biblical values, which have been successfully stripped from us over the years.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral
I found this at http://www.noapathy.org

I don't think it is crap, I think it points out one very important thing.
The words "seperation", "church" and "state" do not exist in the 1st Ammendment.

And Nick, The founding fathers were not "Christians" as it is defined today, but this country was indeed founded on Biblical values, which have been successfully stripped from us over the years.

This country was founded on a plethora of values encompassing Judeo-Christian culture along with the ideals from the beginning of Western Civilization such as from the Greeks and Romans.

Nobody can claim a monopoly on the Law. I see many fundamentalist, either by honest blissful ignorance, or by calculated deception, trying to rewrite the original intentions and biographies of the founding fathers. Mostly to propagate the myth that we were once a Christian nation, and this is being stripped away! It's funny how they always absorb the most ironic choices into their arguments, Thomas Jefferson was a deist!

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Without people of the United States upholding good moral conduct, society soon degenerates into a corrupt system where people misuse the authority of government to obtain what they want at the expense of others.

yeah, you have to watch out for that... :rolleyes:

[Little_Skittles]

Originally posted by Cathedral

And Nick, The founding fathers were not "Christians" as it is defined today, but this country was indeed founded on Biblical values, which have been successfully stripped from us over the years.

Wow you got this down.

[Cathedral]

The problem isn't how the Constitution was drafted, the problem is "people" and their interpretations of what "wasn't" written.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral
The problem isn't how the Constitution was drafted, the problem is "people" and their interpretations of what "wasn't" written.

Well, I don't think the founding fathers were anti-religious either. But I think they felt there is an inherent morality already in the criminal justice code that is universal and A-religious. One's religious commitment is a personal matter and cannot be legislated.

[Warham]

I think liberals are just trying to remove 'God' from everything, when clearly that was never the original intention. God was intentionally included in our founding documents, for good reasons.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
I think liberals are just trying to remove 'God' from everything, when clearly that was never the original intention. God was intentionally included in our founding documents, for good reasons.

Metaphorically and nondenominationally!

[Cathedral]

Incidentally, If everyone followed the Ten Commandments as law we would have no need for police or judges, or prisons for that matter.

Oh what a dream world that would be, eh?

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Warham
I think liberals are just trying to remove 'God' from everything, when clearly that was never the original intention. God was intentionally included in our founding documents, for good reasons.

Because he's real, and we are nothing but lost without his blessings.

[FORD]

Do I have to post the Jefferson Bible yet again to debunk this idea that TJ, George and the gang were the (1)700 Club of their time? :rolleyes:

[FORD]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Because he's real, and we are nothing but lost without his blessings.

If Jesus wanted governments to be "Christian" he would have overthrown the Roman Empire.

But at least if Jesus had done so, it would have been Christian.

Nothing remotely resembling that will ever come from a BCE government.

RE-ELECT JIMMY CARTER 2008!!

(A President who is a REAL Christian)

[FORD]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Incidentally, If everyone followed the Ten Commandments as law we would have no need for police or judges, or prisons for that matter.

Oh what a dream world that would be, eh?

If it was truly enforced, maybe. But under the BCE, it would be a case where "Thou Shalt Not Kill" applies to abortion clinics, but NOT to wholesale slaughter of brown skinned civilians in countries who have resources they want to steal.

Oops.. I guess "Thou Shalt Not Steal" would have to be re-defined as well.

As well as the 7 other commandments that Junior has broken...

(Adultery hasn't been proven yet)

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Angel
Thanks, Cat. Another reason why I'm glad to be North of the Border. ;) Another reason I´m glad I live here!

Religion sucks!

It´s for idiots who don´t trust their own common sense.



BTW, cheap hotel Bibles are a good substitute for toilet paper.

[Little_Skittles]

KENTUCKY..........our bibles teach us how to live our life in a good way. When you don't have god in your life any god your useless.

You've no sense of direction, so therefore your lost and confused about life. Religion is the greatest thing in the world.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by FORD
If Jesus wanted governments to be "Christian" he would have overthrown the Roman Empire.

But at least if Jesus had done so, it would have been Christian.

Nothing remotely resembling that will ever come from a BCE government.

RE-ELECT JIMMY CARTER 2008!!

(A President who is a REAL Christian)

No Government will ever be Christian because no admin ever has been, even Carter's.
He played the game just like everyone else, but if he held his values close, good for him.
But the point of my post has been completely missed by a lot of you (no labels given here).
It has nothing to do with Jefferson, it is as simple as pointing out that the 1st Ammendment itself says nothing about seperating the church from the state.

I am certainly not suggesting that the Bush Camp step forward and use words like smite, and repent, it won't happen.
But to expand on that, and to help inflate your BCE Rants maybe just a little...Bush basically lied by running the "Christian" angle knowing two full years before the 2000 election that he had no intentions of pressing any of those issues, he put on a good show, and he got the job.
I won't answer for anyone else's sins but my own, so their standing with God i would certainly like to see improve, but the choice is not mine to make for them.

I DON'T CARE ABOUT THE GAME OF POLITICS!

And i'm certainly not going to spend my days focusing on the iniquities of others as is done so much in this forum.

If you can use your information to impliment change for the better, then fine. But if your going to use it to serve man, I'll have no part in it.
The fact is, bible prophecy is unfolding, it has been since the beginning of time and it doesn't make one bit of difference who sits in the White House or what we think we can do to alter world destiny.

Everything will and has happened exactly as it has been written, and no flood of lies should be allowed to seperate us from one another.
And to deny that our course has already been laid out for us is an attempt at ignoring the obvious.

Ford, You are obsessed with the "BCE", it shows in every single post you submit.
All i can say is that you should probably consider getting your own house in order and forget about your fellow man and their short comings.
nobody is perfect, and the least of which would be any political organization.
People will be tried and judged by their own works, maybe not in this life, but in the next, surely.
And when you stand before God i would hope you don't start your session with "Well, the BCE did this, and did that, so it wasn't my fault, blah blah blah blah blah..." let it go, man.

The best thing you can do is to pray for those who aren't walking with the Lord, in fact, it's the only thing you can do for them and yourself.

Going off on rants here will do nothing, and leave you as empty as when you started.
No change will come from it.

Luv Ya, man...and God Bless!

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Little_Skittles
KENTUCKY..........our bibles teach us how to live our life in a good way. When you don't have god in your life any god your useless.

You've no sense of direction, so therefore your lost and confused about life. Religion is the greatest thing in the world. You don´t even know the difference between "your" and "you´re" in YOUR own fucking language.:p :rolleyes: :eek: :p

[ELVIS]

Yes she does...

[Angel]

Obviously, Elvis doesn't either. ;)

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Angel
Obviously, Elvis doesn't either. ;) Well, skittles might have made an attempt at irony. It´s well known around the world that Americans aren´t very good at that!

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by Little_Skittles
KENTUCKY..........our bibles teach us how to live our life in a good way. When you don't have god in your life any god your useless.

You've no sense of direction, so therefore your lost and confused about life. Religion is the greatest thing in the world.

Oh, bullshit.

Speaking as an atheist I have more direction than 99% of the people on this planet. Lost and confused?

Do you think that all atheists are depressed people with no sense of self worth? Get over it. I have seen believers that have a never ending sense of dread about themselves. Explain why this happens if we need religion to be happy. Go ahead.

Religion does not give you a purpose, it doesn't even promise to make you "useful" or whatever you're trying to mean by that.

[Angel]

Thank you Pink - my sentiments EXACTLY! ;)

[Warham]

Christ gives you hope. I don't know about the other religions.

[Pink Spider]

You should look into other religions. Hope isn't that hard to obtain. Its not a Christian exclusive or the exclusive of any religion.

Perhaps you use Christianity to obtain hope. There's nothing wrong with that, if you can't find it any other way.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
You should look into other religions. Hope isn't that hard to obtain. Its not a Christian exclusive or the exclusive of any religion.

Perhaps you use Christianity to obtain hope. There's nothing wrong with that, if you can't find it any other way. Ave Satanas!

[Warham]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
You should look into other religions. Hope isn't that hard to obtain. Its not a Christian exclusive or the exclusive of any religion.

Perhaps you use Christianity to obtain hope. There's nothing wrong with that, if you can't find it any other way.

I have looked, and found none of that hope that Christ has.

[Cathedral]

Can i step in here and say something?

Thanks!

With Christ in your heart you don't need hope, and your purpose is to spread the gospel.
If you have a personal relationship with the Lord, you are complete and need for nothing.

If a "Christian" finds themselves lacking anything then they have some praying to do because they aren't quit where they need to be in his glory.
I know some people who call themselves Christians, and then will run over you getting out of a parking lot, is that the action of a Christian?

Point is, there may be many different labels put on a believer, but it is whats in their hearts and actions towards others that determines if they follow the gospel or not.
Not everyone claiming to be a Christian is a Christian, and the sad thing is that those select many spoil it for the genuine articles.

But the true God fearing Christian doesn't put any stock in what others think about them, they'll pray for you and tell you the good news regardless.

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Warham
I have looked, and found none of that hope that Christ has.

Yet there are BILLIONS of people who have not found any hope in Christ like the hope they get from THEIR religion. In fact, Christianity is not the world's dominant religion. A large MAJORITY of the population worship De Lawd in other ways, or with other EQUALLY VALID religions.

What is FUCKED about this country (and why the seperation of church and state is a myth) is that so much of our bullshit laws are a result of legislation by 'Christians' who create laws based on their religious views.

Look at the current bullshit where everyone is trying to ban gay marriage...

Fucking hell man...if two pole-smokers or two carpet-munchers want to marry because they love each other, it is THEIR business. NOT the government's.

Why is marijuana illegal? Why is prostituiton illegal (in most states)?

Ever notice how it is ok to show murder and violence on TV, but sex is FORBIDDEN due to so-called "Christian" morals????

WHAT A CROCK OF FUCKING SHIT!!!

God is real (not as a sentient being, but as the spiritual universe which exists and resides in all of us), but RELIGION does nothing but FUCK EVERYTHING UP!

Yes there are many who benefit from religion, and some morals are necessary in society to avoid complete anarchy and fucking in the streets (though that last part is not such a bad thing haha), but then on the flip side of the coin, billion of people have been murdered, raped, tortured, burned at the stake, etc. in the name of "God".

Those who use "God" to force their moral views on others when it harms them or is un-necessary are EVIL, and need to go to HELL and helpKatydid suck Satan's Cock while getting Ass-raped by Richard Milhouse Nixon....

peace
:D

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Pink Spider


Speaking as an atheist I have more direction than 99% of the people on this planet.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

[Hardrock69]

LMFAO!!!


Hey check this out.....

The First Church Of Jesus Christ Elvis (http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/sacred_heart_elvis.html)

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Hardrock69

Fucking hell man...if two pole-smokers or two carpet-munchers want to marry because they love each other, it is THEIR business. NOT the government's.




You're wacked in the head...

[ELVIS]

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?postid=415707

How Great Thow Art


:elvis:

[Warham]

Originally posted by Hardrock69

WHAT A CROCK OF FUCKING SHIT!!!

God is real (not as a sentient being, but as the spiritual universe which exists and resides in all of us), but RELIGION does nothing but FUCK EVERYTHING UP!


peace
:D

You must believe in the Force from Star Wars if you believe that.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Can i step in here and say something?

Thanks!

With Christ in your heart you don't need hope, and your purpose is to spread the gospel.
If you have a personal relationship with the Lord, you are complete and need for nothing.


I think I was coming at it from this angle, Cath.

If you have faith in Christ, you have hope in Christ...

My hope is built on nothing less
Than Jesus’ blood and righteousness.
I dare not trust the sweetest frame,
But wholly trust in Jesus’ Name.

Refrain

On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.

When darkness seems to hide His face,
I rest on His unchanging grace.
In every high and stormy gale,
My anchor holds within the veil.

Refrain

His oath, His covenant, His blood,
Support me in the whelming flood.
When all around my soul gives way,
He then is all my Hope and Stay.

Refrain

When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh may I then in Him be found.
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne.

Refrain

[Cathedral]

I was not trying to take away from what you said or alter it in any way, bro.
I fully understand what you were saying.

It all boils down to a man dying on the cross and saving the world.
Rising from the dead, doing what he said he would do.

People can complicate it, twist, deny it or just accept it, the choice belongs to the individual.

My apologies if it seemed as though i were correcting you, that was not my intention.

[Warham]

No prob.

We are in the same boat together.

:D

[Cathedral]

Amen, my brotha'............. ;)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
You're wacked in the head...

Pot--tea kettle!

[Nickdfresh]

What God wants God gets God help us all
What God wants God gets
The kid in the corner looked at the priest
And fingered his pale blue Japanese guitar
The priest said
God wants goodness
God wants light
God wants mayhem
God wants a clean fight
What God wants God gets
Don't look so surprised
It's only dogma
The alien prophet cried
The beetle and the springbok
Took the Bible from its hook
The monkey in the corner
Wrote the lesson in his book
What God wants God gets God help us all
God wants peace
God wants war
God wants famine
God wants chain stores
What God wants God gets
God wants sedition
God wants sex
God wants freedom
God wants semtex
What God wants God gets
Don't look so surprised
I'm only joking
The alien comic cried
The jackass and hyena
Took the feather from its hook
The monkey in the corner
Wrote the joke down in his book
What God wants God gets
God wants boarders
God wants crack
God wants rainfall
God wants wetbacks
What God wants God gets
God wants voodoo
God wants shrines
God wants law
God wants organized crime
God wants crusade
God wants jihad
God wants good
God wants bad
What God wants God gets

What God Wants, Pt. 1 Lyrics
Artist: Roger Waters
Album: Amused To Death

[Little_Skittles]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Can i step in here and say something?

Thanks!

With Christ in your heart you don't need hope, and your purpose is to spread the gospel.
If you have a personal relationship with the Lord, you are complete and need for nothing.

If a "Christian" finds themselves lacking anything then they have some praying to do because they aren't quit where they need to be in his glory.
I know some people who call themselves Christians, and then will run over you getting out of a parking lot, is that the action of a Christian?

Point is, there may be many different labels put on a believer, but it is whats in their hearts and actions towards others that determines if they follow the gospel or not.
Not everyone claiming to be a Christian is a Christian, and the sad thing is that those select many spoil it for the genuine articles.

But the true God fearing Christian doesn't put any stock in what others think about them, they'll pray for you and tell you the good news regardless.


You got it cathedral!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Little_Skittles
You got it cathedral!

Do you post anything of substance besides delusional cheerleader rants?

[Little_Skittles]

Hmm maybe. But i really don't see the point in saying what cathedral already said over again and wasting space. UHH cheerleader god no eww, you are wacked.

[YAWN]

Originally posted by Warham
On Christ the solid Rock I stand,
All other ground is sinking sand;
All other ground is sinking sand.


Ya know, I've had that song stuck in my head all night, and I couldn't figure out why. Just remembered it was because of that post. LOL... weird, huh?

Roth on, y'all...

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Cathedral
With Christ in your heart you don't need hope, and your purpose is to spread the gospel. The last time somebody tried to spread the gospel my way I pissed on his Bible!

Obnoxious dipshit, I told him to fuck off but the idiot didn´t want to listen!

[Little_Skittles]

OK guys here's the dealio kentucky doesn't want to know the truth. leave him alone to be miserable.

[Nickdfresh]

Debunking the Christian Democracy Myth

Quotes from the Founding Fathers

1. George Wasington wrote:

1st President (1789-1797)
*
“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. I had hoped that liberal and enlightened thought would have reconciled the Christians so that their [not our?] religious fights would not endanger the peace of Society.” (Letter to Sir Edward Newenham, June 22, 1792)


* In support of Thomas Pain

“Your presence may remind Congress of your past services to this country; and if it is in my power to impress them, command my best exertions with freedom, as they will be rendered cheerfully by one who entertains a lively sense of the importance of your works, and who with much pleasure subscribes himself,” (letter to Thomas Paine written after publication of Age of Reason)

2. George Washington never once took communion.

Rev. Dr. Abercrombie: “On sacramental Sundays, Gen. Washington, immediately after the desk and pulpit services, went out with the greater part of the Congregation.”
* Rev. Dr. Wilson: “After that [Dr. Abercrombie’s reproof], upon communion days, he absented himself altogether from the church.”
* Rev. Dr. Beverly Tucker: “The General was accustomed, on communion Sundays, to leave the church with her [Nelly Custis], sending the carriage back for Mrs. Washington.”
* Rev. Dr. Bird Wilson: “He never was a communicant in them [Dr. White’s churches].”
* Rev. William Jackson: “I find no one who ever communed with him.”
* Rev. E.D. Neill: “The President was not a communicant.”
* Rev. Jared Sparks: “This [his refusal to commune] may be admitted and regretted.”
* Gen. A.W. Greely: “There is no reliable evidence that he ever took communion.”
* St. Louis Globe: “There is nothing to show that he was ever a member of the church.”
* Washington himself (as quoted by Dr. Abercrombie): “I have never been a communicant.”


3. John Adams wrote:
2nd President (1797-1801)

* “Nothing is more dreaded than the national government meddling with religion.”

* “Thirteen governments [states & former colonies] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretense of miracle or mystery...are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.”

* “It will never be pretended that any persons employed in that service [formation of the American governments] had interviews with the gods, or were in any degree under the influence of Heaven...”

* Treaty of Tripoli ― Ratified by the Senate and signed into law by John Adams on 10 June, 1797.

“[T]he Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion...”

* “How has it happened that millions of myths, fables, legends and tales have been blended with Jewish and Christian fables and myths and have made them the most bloody religion that has ever existed? Filled with the sordid and detestable purposes of superstition and fraud?” (Letters to F.A. Van Der Kamp 1809-1816)


4. In reference to Thomas Paine:

* “It has been very generally propagated through the continent that I wrote the pamphlet 'Common Sense.' I could not have written anything in so manly and striking a style.” (letter to Thomas Paine)

5. Thomas Jefferson wrote:
3rd President (1801-1809)

* “The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts only as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God.”

* “The serious enemies are the priests of the different religious sects to whose spells on the human mind its improvement is ominous.”

* “I join you [John Adams], therefore, in sincere congratulations that this den of the priesthood is at length broken up, and that a Protestant Popedom is no longer to disgrace the American history and character.”

* “In every country and in every age the priest [any and every clergyman] has been hostile to liberty; he is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.”

* “I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition [Christianity] one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded upon fables and mythologies.”

* “His [Calvin's] religion was demonism. If ever man worshiped a false God, he did.”

* “Their [Presbyterian’s] ambition and tyranny would tolerate no rival if they had power.”

* “It is not to be understood that I am with him [Jesus] in all his doctrines. I am a Materialist.”

* “It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself.”

* “If by religion, we are to understand sectarian dogmas, in which no two of them agree, then your [John Adams’] exclamation on that hypothesis is just, ‘that this would be the best of worlds if there were no religion in it’.”

* Christianity neither is, nor ever was apart of the common law. Feb. 10, 1814

* “Christian creeds and doctrines, the clergy's own fatal inventions, through all the ages has made of Christendom a slaughterhouse, and divided it into sects of inextinguishable hatred for one another.” (Letter to Thomas Whittemore, June 5, 1822)

* In support of Thomas Paine:

“No writer has exceeded Paine in ease and familiarity of style, in perspicuity of expression, happiness of elucidation, and in simple and unassuming language.”

“That you may live long to continue your useful labors, and reap the reward in the thankfulness of nations, is my sincere prayer. Accept the assurances of my high esteem and affectionate attachment.” (letter to Thomas Paine written after publication of Age of Reason)


6. James Madison wrote:
The 4th President (1809-1817)

feared organized religion. Quotations here excerpted from James Madison on Religious Liberty edited by Robert S. Alley, ISBN 0-87975-298-X.

* “During almost fifteen centuries, the legal establishment of Christianity has been on trial. What have been the fruits of this trial? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; and in both, clergy and laity, superstition, bigotry and persecution.” (Speech to the General Assembly of Virginia, 1785)

* From a document in Madison’s own hand and re-published in the William and Mary Quarterly of October 1946.

“The danger of silent accumulations & encroachments by Ecclesiastical Bodies have not sufficiently engaged attention in the U.S.”

“Strongly guarded as is the separation between Religion & Govt in the Constitution of the United States the danger of encroachment by Ecclesiastical Bodies, my be illustrated by precedents already furnished in their shorty history.”

“But besides the danger of a direct mixture of Religion & the civil Government, there is an evil which ought to be guarded agst in the indefinite accumulation of property from the capacity of holding it in perpetuity by ecclesiastical corporations. The power of all coprporations , ought to be limited in this respect. The growing wealth acuired by them never fails to be a source of abuses.”

“Are the U.S. duly awake to the tendency of the precedents they are establishing, in the multiplied incorporations of Religious Congregations with the faculty of acquiring & holding property real as well as personal? Do not many of these acts [of Congress] give this faculty, without limit either as to time or as to amount? Ad must not bodies, perpetual in their existtence, and which may be always gaining without ever losing, speedily gain more than is useful, and in time more than is safe?”

“Is the appointment of Chaplains to the two Houses of Congress consistent with the Constitution, and with the pure principle of religious freedom? In strictness the answer on both points must be in the negative. The Constitution of the U.S. forbids everything like an establishment of a national religion. The law appointing Chaplains establishes a religious worship for the national representatives, to be performed by Ministers of religion, elected by a majority of them; and these are to be paid out of the national taqxes.”

“The establishment of the chaplainship to Cong[res]s is a palpable violation of equal rights, as well as of Constitutional principles: The tenets of the chaplains elected shut the door of worship agst the members whose creeds & consciences forbid a participation in that of the majority.”

If Religion consist in voluntary acts of individuals, singly, or voluntarily associaated, and it be proper that public functionaries, as well as their Constituents should discharge their religious duties, let them like their Constituents, do so at t heir own expense.”

“Better also to disarm in the same way, the precedent of Chaplainships for the army and navy, than erect them into a political authority in matters of religion.”

“Religious proclamations by the Executive recommending thanksgivings & fasts are shoots from the same root with the legislative acts reviewed. Altho’ recommendations only, they imply a religious agency, making no part of the trust delegated to political rulers.”


7. James Monroe wrote:
5th President (1817-1825) in support of Thomas Paine.

* “It is not necessary for me to tell you how much all your countrymen -- I speak of the great mass of the people -- are interested in your welfare. They have not forgotten the history of their own Revolution and the difficult scenes through which they passed; nor do they review its several stages without reviving in their bosoms a due sensibility of the merits of those who served them in that great and arduous conflict. The crime of ingratitude has not yet stained, and I trust never will stain, our national character. You are considered by them as not only having rendered important services in our own Revolution, but as being on a more extensive scale the friend of human rights, and a distinguished and able defender of public liberty. To the welfare of Thomas Paine the Americans are not, nor can they be indifferent.” (letter to Thomas Paine written after publication of Age of Reason)

8. John Quincy Adams wrote: 6th President (1825 - 1829)

* “There are in this country, as in all others, a certain proportion of restless and turbulent spirits - poor, unoccupied, ambitious - who must always have something to quarrel about with their neighbors. These people are the authors of religious revivals.”

9. Andrew Jackson wrote:
Not until the 7th President (1829 - 1837)

did organized religion win a proponent in that office. Jackson started out religious and grew ever more so with advancing years. Yet even so he saw the limits of his office in that regard.
* “I could not do otherwise without transcending the limits prescribed by the Constitution for the President and without feeling that I might in some degree disturb the security which religion nowadays enjoys in this country in its complete separation form the political concerns of the General Government.” (letter explaining his refusal to proclaim a national day of, among other things, prayer.)

[b]Great Early Patriots

1. Benjamin Franklin wrote:

* “The Infinite Father expects or requires no worship or praise from us.”

* “I conceive, then, that the Infinite has created many beings or gods vastly superior to man.”

* “It may be these created gods are immortals; or it may be that after many ages, they are changed, and others supply their places.”

* “Howbeit, I conceive that each of these is exceeding good and very powerful; and that each has made for himself one glorious sun, attended with a beautiful and admirable system of planets.”

* In a letter to Ezra Stiles:

“I believe in one God, Creator of the Universe. [...] That the the most acceptable Service we render to him is doing good to his other Children. That the soul of Man is immortal, and will be treated with Justice in another Life respecting its Conduct in this...”

“As to Jesus of Nazareth, [...] I have...some Doubts as to his Divinity. [...] I see no harm, however, in its being believed [...] I do not perceive, that the Supreme takes it amiss, by distinguishing the Unbelievers...with any peculiar Marks of his Displeasure....”

Info Link: Who was Ezra Stiles?

* “Some volumes against Deism fell into my hands. They were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle’s Lecture. It happened that they produced on me an effect precisely the reverse of what was intended by the writers; for the arguments of the Deists, which were cited in order to be refuted, appealed to me much more forcibly than the refutation itself. In a word, I soon became a thorough Deist.”

2. Thomas Paine wrote:

* “The most detestable wickedness, the most horrid cruelties, and the greatest miseries that have afflicted the human race have had their origin in this thing called revelation, or revealed religion. It has been the most destructive to the peace of man since man began to exist. Among the most detestable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses, who gave an order to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers and then rape the daughters. One of the most horrible atrocities found in the literature of any nation. I would not dishonor my Creator's name by attaching it to this filthy book.” (from The Age of Reason)

Later Presidents
1. John Tyler wrote: 10th President (1841-1845)

* “The United States have adventured upon a great and noble experiment, which is believed to have been hazarded in the absence of all previous precedent -- that of total separation of Church and State. No religious establishment by law exists among us. The conscience is left free from all restraint and each is permitted to worship his Maker after his own judgement. The offices of the Government are open alike to all. No tithes are levied to support an established Hierarchy, nor is the fallible judgement of man set up as the sure and infallible creed of faith. The Mahommedan, if he will to come among us would have the privilege guaranteed to him by the constitution to worship according to the Koran; and the East Indian might erect a shrine to Brahma if it so pleased him. Such is the spirit of toleration inculcated by our political Institutions.... The Hebrew persecuted and down trodden in other regions takes up his abode among us with none to make him afraid.... and the Aegis of the Government is over him to defend and protect him. Such is the great experiment which we have tried, and such are the happy fruits which have resulted from it; our system of free government would be imperfect without it.” (letter dated July 10, 1843)


2. Abraham Lincoln: 16th President (1861-1865)

* “My earlier views of the unsoundness of the Christian scheme of salvationand the human origin of the scriptures, have become clearer and stronger with advancing years and I see no reason for thinking I shall ever change them.” (to Judge JS. Wakefield, after Willie Lincoln's death)

* Mary Todd Lincoln:
“Mr. Lincoln was not a Christian.”

3. Ulysses S. Grant 18th President (1869-1877)

* “Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church and the private school supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separate.” (Address to the Army of the Tennessee, Des Moines, Iowa, September 25, 1875)

4. Theodore Roosevelt 26th President (1901-1909)

* “To discriminate against a thoroughly upright citizen because he belongs to some particular church, or because, like Abraham Lincoln, he has not avowed his allegiance to any church, is an outrage against that liberty of conscience which is one of the foundations of American life.” (letter to J. C. Martin, 9 November 1908)

* “If there is one thing for which we stand in this country, it is for complete religious freedom, and it is an emphatic negation of this right to cross-examine a man on his religion before being willing to support him for office.” (letter to J. C. Martin, 9 November1908)

* “I hold that in this country there must be complete severance of Church and State; that public moneys shall not be used for the purpose of advancing any particular creed; and therefore that the public schools shall be nonsectarian and no public moneys appropriated for sectarian schools.” (Carnegie Hall address, 12 October 1915)

Primary Influences on the Founding Fathers
1. John Locke (1632-1704) wrote:

* “Every man has a property in his own person. This nobody has a right to, but himself.”

* “The care, therefor, of every man’s soul belongs unto himself and is to be left unto himself.”

* “The care of souls cannot belong to the civil magistrate...”

* “I affirm that the magistrate's power extends not to the establishing of any articles of faith, or forms of worship, by the force of his laws.”

* “If any man err from the right way, it is his own misfortune, no injury to thee; nor therefor art thou to punish him in the things of this life because thou supposest he will be miserable in that which is to come.”

* “No man by nature is bound unto any particular church or sect”

* “Not even Americans, subjected unto a Christian prince, are to be punished either in body or goods for not embracing our faith and worship.”

* “Let them not supply their want of reasons with the instruments of force, which belong to another jurisdiction and do ill become a Churchman’s hands.”

* “Religion, which should most distinguish us from beasts, and ought most particularly to elevate us, as rational creatures, above brutes, is that wherein men often appear most irrational, and more senseless than beasts themselves.”

from: http://monotheism.us/

[DrMaddVibe]

Nick, did you ever read the book that Waters' album is taken from?

IT's an insightful read that humanity has left critical thinking behind when we moved from a typset media world to a tv-radio media world.

Once you read the book you'll see that the song you referenced isn't about what you believe it to be.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140094385/ref=cm_bg_f_2/002-4293463-3824823?v=glance

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Nick, did you ever read the book that Waters' album is taken from?


IT's an insightful read that humanity has left critical thinking behind when we moved from a typset media world to a tv-radio media world.

Once you read the book you'll see that the song you referenced isn't about what you believe it to be.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0140094385/ref=cm_bg_f_2/002-4293463-3824823?v=glance

No I haven't, I shall give it a look. But Waters was pretty critical of the Gulf War in any interviews I ever read, though he is a bit of a prick.

Pink Floyd's final producer, Bob Ezrin referred to him as an arrogant asshole in a recent Toronto radio special.

I think I have a pretty good grasp of the song and album though.

[DrMaddVibe]

Read the book Nick.

Waters reference to "god" is the tv. The pixilated altar that many "pray" to. An altar that many take for Truth.

Read the book. Waters did.

Ezrin's opinions are his own. He's entitled to them. He had a 1st person exclusive to Waters. What if he was the "oil" to Roger's "vinegar"?

Waters is a fine songwriter and musician with few equals, but he's not a politician. He's free to musically express his viewpoints from a philosophical singing "telegram". He's not the absolute end all be all to war and tragedy. He's a flawed human as we both are. Should we follow Marilyn Manson's advice on how to treat each other? Waters is famous for hiding the true meaning of his thoughts through lyrics.

Read the book. It really is good, but keep in mind when it was written and the power of the internet. In many ways we have returned to a typeset media. Blogs and Drudge (like them or hate them) have been able to break news faster than tv networks. The power of reading this and thinking about it breaks down Postman's book to rubble. However, he raises an interesting point. Will we become "1984" or "Brave New World"?

The will of the people bear out that they will surrender their power to critically think and behave as a willful act and not as a government controlled function.

Read the book. You can find it in most used book stores for under a buck!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Read the book Nick.

Waters reference to "god" is the tv. The pixilated altar that many "pray" to. An altar that many take for Truth.

Read the book. Waters did.

Ezrin's opinions are his own. He's entitled to them. He had a 1st person exclusive to Waters. What if he was the "oil" to Roger's "vinegar"?

Waters is a fine songwriter and musician with few equals, but he's not a politician. He's free to musically express his viewpoints from a philosophical singing "telegram". He's the absolute end all be all to war and tragedy. He's a flawed human as we both are. Should we follow Marilyn Manson's advice on how to treat each other?

Read the book. It really is good, but keep in mind when it was written and the power of the internet. In many ways we have returned to a typeset media. Blogs and Drudge (like them or hate them) have been able to break news faster than tv networks. The power of reading this and thinking about it breaks down Postman's book to rubble. However, he raises an interesting point. Will we become "1984" or "Brave New World"?

The will of the people bear out that they will surrender their power to critically think and behave as a willful act and not as a government controlled function.

Read the book. You can find it in most used book stores for under a buck!

Okay! I gott'cha' now and I agree. I was think of the other thread in which I posted Waters lyrics (on War-- "The Bravery of Being Out of Range."

I never took his sentiments to be atheistic or even anti-religious. But Waters criticisms on the album are based on not only attacking mass-media(ium), but unrestrained Capitalism, lack of empathetic point-of-view, and the over-abundance of entertainment.

Well I guess we do agree on something there Vibe, the erratic genius of Roger Waters.

[DrMaddVibe]

LOL!

FWIW...that was Waters least profitable work!


I almost majored in Philosophy and am still interested in it; however, I didn't want to teach so I quickly left that path but still made it to the 300 level.

Postman's book was required reading then and while researching for my paper I ran across Waters release. He was a vocal fan of the book and it moved him to record. After his walkout with PF, you'll see that that in itself was a major step.

Along with wanting to see Van Halen reformed with their former frontmAn...I'd love to see Pink Floyd complete...even drag Syd out too. I hope that they don't take the path of The Clash and let the clock run out!

[Nickdfresh]

There's so much bitterness between Waters and Gilmour. I though there was a rumor a few years ago, but that faded.

About a couple of months ago, a Toronto station (107.1) did a 20th anniversary special where the the DJ of the regular program "Psychedelic Sunday" interviewed "The Wall" producer, and Toronto resident, Bob Erzin. He said he was caught in the middle of Waters vs. Gilmour conflict and knew the band wasn't going to last.

Ezrin faulted Waters mostly, calling him an asshole more than once, but had to acknowledge that PF was never the same without his "creative sensibilities" and basically said that Waters was a troubled, angry genius in his own right, not far off from Barrett.

I remember the anecdote Ezrin told of David Gilmour bringing a love song to put on "The Wall" or to have Roger rewrite lyrics for. Roger called it a 'piece of shit and said something to the effect of what the fuck am I supposed to do with this? Ezrin said this was typical, because Waters came back with Gilmour's music three-weeks later and used it as the basis for "Comfortably Numb!"

[kentuckyklira]

www.churchofeuthanasia.org

[Warham]

I think you left out some quotes, Nick...

Thomas Paine and the Age of Reason
Thomas Paine is sometimes grouped with the Founding Fathers. Your daily newspaper might reinforce this view with editorials like this:

Franklin, Washington, Jefferson, Paine and most of our other patriarchs were at best deists, believing in the unmoved mover of Aristotle, but not the God of the Old and New Testaments.[1]

It would be difficult to name a single one of the Founding Fathers who approved of Paine's Age of Reason, his famous tract attacking religion in general and evangelical Christianity in particular. Even less-than-evangelicals like Benjamin Franklin and the "Unitarians" all denounced Paine's book.

Before Paine published his Age of Reason, he sent a manuscript copy to Benjamin Franklin, seeking his thoughts. Notice Franklin's strong and succinct reply, and keep in mind that those on all sides of the religion question would concede Franklin to be one of the least religious Founders:

"I have read your manuscript with some attention. By the argument it contains against a particular Providence, though you allow a general Providence, you strike at the foundations of all religion. For without the belief of a Providence that takes cognizance of, guards, and guides, and may favor particular persons, there is no motive to worship a Deity, to fear his displeasure, or to pray for his protection. I will not enter into any discussion of your principles, though you seem to desire it. At present I shall only give you my opinion that . . . the consequence of printing this piece will be a great deal of odium drawn upon yourself, mischief to you, and no benefit to others. He that spits into the wind, spits in his own face. But were you to succeed, do you imagine any good would be done by it? . . . [T]hink how great a portion of mankind consists of weak and ignorant men and women and of inexperienced, inconsiderate youth of both sexes who have need of the motives of religion to restrain them from vice, to support their virtue . . . . I would advise you, therefore, not to attempt unchaining the tiger, but to burn this piece before it is seen by any other person . . . . If men are so wicked with religion, what would they be without it? I intend this letter itself as proof of my friendship.[2]"

Samuel Adams was not quite as cordial as Franklin:

"[W]hen I heard you had turned your mind to a defence of infidelity, I felt myself much astonished and more grieved that you had attempted a measure so injurious to the feelings and so repugnant to the true interest of so great a part of the citizens of the United States. The people of New England, if you will allow me to use a Scripture phrase, are fast returning to their first love. Will you excite among them the spirit of angry controversy at a time when they are hastening to amity and peace? I am told that some of our newspapers have announced your intention to publish an additional pamphlet upon the principles of your Age of Reason. Do you think your pen, or the pen of any other man, can unchristianize the mass of our citizens, or have you hopes of converting a few of them to assist you in so bad a cause?"[3]

John Adams certainly spoke harshly of such anti-Christian propaganda:

"The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue equity and humanity, let the Blackguard [scoundrel, rogue] Paine say what he will.[4]"

Far from opposing "the God of the Old and New Testaments," Adams defended the Bible as the basis for government in a Christian nation:

"Suppose a nation in some distant region should take the Bible for their only law book, and every member should regulate his conduct by the precepts there exhibited! Every member would be obliged in conscience, to temperance, frugality, and industry; to justice, kindness, and charity towards his fellow men; and to piety, love, and reverence toward Almighty God.... What a Eutopia, what a Paradise would this region be." [5]

This was, in fact, the basis for the system of government in America, as Adams wrote to Thomas Jefferson on June 28, 1813:

"The general principles, on which the Fathers achieved independence, were the only Principles in which that beautiful Assembly of young Gentlemen could Unite....And what were these general Principles? I answer, the general Principles of Christianity, in which all these Sects were United: . . . Now I will avow, that I then believe, and now believe, that those general Principles of Christianity, are as eternal and immutable, as the Existence and Attributes of God; and that those Principles of Liberty, are as unalterable as human Nature and our terrestrial, mundane System. [6]"

Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence, wrote to his friend and signer of the Constitution John Dickenson that Paine's Age of Reason was "absurd and impious."[7]
Charles Carroll, a signer of the Declaration, described Paine's work as "blasphemous writings against the Christian religion."[8]
John Witherspoon, signer of the Declaration and mentor to many other Founders, said that Paine was "ignorant of human nature as well as an enemy to the Christian faith."[9]
John Quincy Adams declared that "Mr. Paine has departed altogether from the principles of the Revolution." [10]
Elias Boudinot, President of Congress, even published the Age of Revelation -- a full-length rebuttal to Paine's work. In a letter to his daughter, Susan, Boudinot described his motivations for writing that rebuttal:

I confess that I was much mortified to find the whole force of this vain man's genius and art pointed at the youth of America. . . . This awful consequence created some alarm in my mind lest at any future day, you, my beloved child, might take up this plausible address of infidelity; and for want of an answer at hand to his subtle insinuations might suffer even a doubt of the truth, as it is in Jesus, to penetrate your mind. . . . I therefore determined . . . to put my thoughts on the subject of this pamphlet on paper for your edification and information, when I shall be no more. I chose to confine myself to the leading and essential facts of the Gospel which are contradicted or attempted to be turned into ridicule by this writer. I have endeavored to detect his falsehoods and misrepresentations and to show his extreme ignorance of the Divine Scriptures which he makes the subject of his animadversions -- not knowing that "they are the power of God unto salvation, to every one that believeth [Romans 1:16]."[11]

Patrick Henry, too, wrote a refutation of Paine's work which he described as "the puny efforts of Paine." However, after reading Bishop Richard Watson's Apology for the Bible written against Paine, Henry deemed that work sufficient and decided not to publish his reply.[12]

When William Paterson, signer of the Constitution and a Justice on the U.S. Supreme Court, learned that some Americans seemed to agree with Paine's work, he thundered:

"Infatuated Americans, why renounce your country, your religion, and your God? Oh shame, where is thy blush? Is this the way to continue independent, and to render the 4th of July immortal in memory and song?[13]"

Zephaniah Swift, author of America's first law book, warned:

"[W]e cannot sufficiently reprobate the beliefs of Thomas Paine in his attack on Christianity by publishing his Age of Reason . . . . He has the impudence and effrontery [shameless boldness] to address to the citizens of the United States of America a paltry performance which is intended to shake their faith in the religion of their fathers . . . . No language can describe the wickedness of the man who will attempt to subvert a religion which is a source of comfort and consolation to its votaries [devout worshipers] merely for the purpose of eradicating all sentiments of religion.[14]"

John Jay, co-author of the Federalist Papers and the original Chief Justice of the U.S. Supreme Court, was comforted by the fact that Christianity would prevail despite Paine's attack:

"I have long been of the opinion that the evidence of the truth of Christianity requires only to be carefully examined to produce conviction in candid minds, and I think they who undertake that task will derived advantages. . . . As to The Age of Reason, it never appeared to me to have been written from a disinterested love of truth or of mankind.[15]"

Many other similar writings could be cited, but these are sufficient to show that Paine's views were strongly rejected even by the least religious Founders. In fact, Paine's views caused such vehement public opposition that -- as Franklin predicted -- he spent his last years in New York as "an outcast" in "social ostracism" and was buried in a farm field because no American cemetery would accept his remains.[16]

Yet, even Thomas Paine cannot be called an atheist, for in the same work wherein he so strongly attacked Christianity, Paine also declared:

"I believe in one God . . . and I hope for happiness beyond this life."[17]

The Founding Fathers simply were not atheists -- not even one of them. As Franklin had earlier explained to his European hosts while in France:

"[B]ad examples to youth are more rare in America, which must be comfortable consideration to parents. To this may be truly added, that serious religion, under its various denominations, is not only tolerated, but respected and practiced. Atheism is unknown there; infidelity rare and secret; so that persons may live to a great age in that country, without having their piety shocked by meeting with either an atheist or an infidel.[18]"

While members of the Supreme Court have held that government cannot show "respect" for religion, Franklin says the opposite.

[See David Barton, Original Intent, 130-34 for words in blue.]
http://members.aol.com/TestOath/deism.htm

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
The last time somebody tried to spread the gospel my way I pissed on his Bible!

Obnoxious dipshit, I told him to fuck off but the idiot didn´t want to listen!

That's a lie, you may be a rude misguided twit, but even you wouldn't have the guts to do something that extreme.

Just another internet tough guy, ain't ya?

God is about forgiveness, so if you ever tried something like that with me I'd beat you down so bad it would not be funny.
Then i'd beg for the Lord's forgiveness and continue to share the good news with you.

Son, or is that Boy?
You are lost and your parents let you down.
You still have time to seek the love of Jesus, and he's knocking on your door...Let him in before it's too late.

Of all the people who have ever registered at this site, YOU are in more need of saving than anyone i have ever run across here.

I'm adding you to my prayers, and i pray that God reaches your heart someday because you are indeed a troubled soul.

God Bless You, My Brother!

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Cathedral
That's a lie, you may be a rude misguided twit, but even you wouldn't have the guts to do something that extreme.

Just another internet tough guy, ain't ya?

God is about forgiveness, so if you ever tried something like that with me I'd beat you down so bad it would not be funny.
Then i'd beg for the Lord's forgiveness and continue to share the good news with you.

Son, or is that Boy?
You are lost and your parents let you down.
You still have time to seek the love of Jesus, and he's knocking on your door...Let him in before it's too late.

Of all the people who have ever registered at this site, YOU are in more need of saving than anyone i have ever run across here.

I'm adding you to my prayers, and i pray that God reaches your heart someday because you are indeed a troubled soul.

God Bless You, My Brother!

You forgot the amen. Amen. :gulp:

[Cathedral]

Wow, it has been a challenging day and i'm slipping a tad.

Amen!

Thanks for the reminder BBB. :)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
I think you left out some quotes, Nick...

...
Yet, even Thomas Paine cannot be called an atheist, for in the same work wherein he so strongly attacked Christianity, Paine also declared:

"I believe in one God . . . and I hope for happiness beyond this life."[17]

The Founding Fathers simply were not atheists -- not even one of them. As Franklin had earlier explained to his European hosts while in France:

"[B]ad examples to youth are more rare in America, which must be comfortable consideration to parents. To this may be truly added, that serious religion, under its various denominations, is not only tolerated, but respected and practiced. Atheism is unknown there; infidelity rare and secret; so that persons may live to a great age in that country, without having their piety shocked by meeting with either an atheist or an infidel.[18]"om/TestOath/deism.htm[/url]

The founding fathers were not atheists, at least as far as we know, most were not Christians in the sense of organized religion either! They were, like Jefferson, deists that saw God as an indifferent force that never meddled in the affairs of mankind.

The founding fathers' attack on Pain's work, I believe since I haven't read it, was more a general rejection of the "hyper-rationality" of the extremists' views during the so-called Age of Reason whenthings began to go a little too far.

[Warham]

Either way, they saw fit that religion such as Christianity was a good basis for our morals and our laws. That cannot be denied.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
most were not Christians in the sense of organized religion either!

That's good to know, because true Christians rise up against organized religion...

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
Either way, they saw fit that religion such as Christianity was a good basis for our morals and our laws. That cannot be denied.

Depends on what you mean by "Christianity".

If it's the teachings of Jesus Christ, then I would agree.

If it's the right wing heresy of Falwell, Robertson, Dobson, and the BCE, then I would not.

And the two are not remotely the same. More like polar opposites.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Cathedral
That's a lie, you may be a rude misguided twit, but even you wouldn't have the guts to do something that extreme.

Just another internet tough guy, ain't ya?

God is about forgiveness, so if you ever tried something like that with me I'd beat you down so bad it would not be funny.
Then i'd beg for the Lord's forgiveness and continue to share the good news with you.

Son, or is that Boy?
You are lost and your parents let you down.
You still have time to seek the love of Jesus, and he's knocking on your door...Let him in before it's too late.

Of all the people who have ever registered at this site, YOU are in more need of saving than anyone i have ever run across here.

I'm adding you to my prayers, and i pray that God reaches your heart someday because you are indeed a troubled soul.

God Bless You, My Brother! Pathetic!

:rolleyes:

:tool:

:splooge:

:donkey:

You probably also believe Van Halen 3 was a good album!

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Warham
Either way, they saw fit that religion such as Christianity was a good basis for our morals and our laws. That cannot be denied. Sure helped justify:

-slaughtering and raping the Native Americans

-raping and exploiting millions of slaves

-leading dozens of wars, many for selfish reasons and with atrocious methods

-supporting despotic regimes that killed and tortured thousands of their own people

-supporting organizations responsible for things likle death squads, for example in Columbia

-suppoting and harbouring terrorists, as long as they only bomb things like Cuban civilian airliners

-being the only civilized country other than Iran that executes minors and mentally handicapped people (not even China does that)


Yep, sure been an excellent moral basis!

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
Pathetic!

:rolleyes:

:tool:

:splooge:

:donkey:

You probably also believe Van Halen 3 was a good album!

Trying to paint me as a Hagar fan, or a VH3 fan won't fly here, bud.
I'm an original Dave or the Graver all the way, just ask around. ;)

And another thing, "Jesus Love's You", man. I love you too my brother, and the more you avoid it the more i'll pray for your soul every single night before bed.
Just ask and he'll take you in and bless you beyond belief.
You'll leave behind this need to attack those who only want to see you live forever in the Kingdom of God.

I rebuke that demon that possesses your soul, I pray he leaves you this instant in the name of Jesus, amen.

Accept it, and begin your new life walking with the Lord.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
Sure helped justify:

-slaughtering and raping the Native Americans

-raping and exploiting millions of slaves

-leading dozens of wars, many for selfish reasons and with atrocious methods

-supporting despotic regimes that killed and tortured thousands of their own people

-supporting organizations responsible for things likle death squads, for example in Columbia

-suppoting and harbouring terrorists, as long as they only bomb things like Cuban civilian airliners

-being the only civilized country other than Iran that executes minors and mentally handicapped people (not even China does that)


Yep, sure been an excellent moral basis!

It's a shame most Americans I meet don't even know about any of that never mind having an opinion.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
That's good to know, because true Christians rise up against organized religion...

So in your opinion 99% of Christians are not true?

Actually I agree.

[ELVIS]

A sizable portion are not...

[Seshmeister]

I think I've met about 2 or 3 true Christians in my life and one of them was possibly a bit racist...

I'd say about 0.1% of churchgoers 'get it'.

[Katydid]

Originally posted by FORD
If it was truly enforced, maybe. But under the BCE, it would be a case where "Thou Shalt Not Kill" applies to abortion clinics, but NOT to wholesale slaughter of brown skinned civilians in countries who have resources they want to steal.

Oops.. I guess "Thou Shalt Not Steal" would have to be re-defined as well.

As well as the 7 other commandments that Junior has broken...

(Adultery hasn't been proven yet)

FORD, I think you have war mixed up with abortion. I don't recall war ever being called a breaking of the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment. Abortion is killing an innocent. War is killing an enemy. The Bible says, "there shall be wars and rumors of war."

[Katydid]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
Sure helped justify:

-slaughtering and raping the Native Americans

-raping and exploiting millions of slaves

-leading dozens of wars, many for selfish reasons and with atrocious methods

-supporting despotic regimes that killed and tortured thousands of their own people

-supporting organizations responsible for things likle death squads, for example in Columbia

-suppoting and harbouring terrorists, as long as they only bomb things like Cuban civilian airliners

-being the only civilized country other than Iran that executes minors and mentally handicapped people (not even China does that)


Yep, sure been an excellent moral basis!


HEY GERMANY...WHAT HAS GERMANY EVER DONE TO BE AN EXCELLENT MORALIST? ANYONE WANT TO SPECULATE ON GERMANY? INSTEAD OF FALLING RIGHT IN WITH THE HITLER TRASH AND DOWN AMERICA FOR SAVING THE JEWS LIVES? THAT ALONE MAKES UP FOR A LOT OF PAST SINS.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Katydid
FORD, I think you have war mixed up with abortion. I don't recall war ever being called a breaking of the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment. Abortion is killing an innocent. War is killing an enemy. The Bible says, "there shall be wars and rumors of war."

Oh, and children don't killed in war you retard?! You're the poster child for abortion!

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Katydid
FORD, I think you have war mixed up with abortion. I don't recall war ever being called a breaking of the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment. Abortion is killing an innocent. War is killing an enemy. The Bible says, "there shall be wars and rumors of war."

Look at this dead enemy cunt.

Guilty little bitch?

http://www.kirkbytimes.co.uk/images/warimages/iraq_victims/iraq_child_carried_dead_bas.jpg

[Cathedral]

I don't think i have ever started a thread without naked women in it that grew to 3 pages.

Too bad it had to be political in nature. :(

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Cathedral
That's a lie, you may be a rude misguided twit, but even you wouldn't have the guts to do something that extreme.

Just another internet tough guy, ain't ya?

God is about forgiveness, so if you ever tried something like that with me I'd beat you down so bad it would not be funny.
Then i'd beg for the Lord's forgiveness and continue to share the good news with you.

Son, or is that Boy?
You are lost and your parents let you down.
You still have time to seek the love of Jesus, and he's knocking on your door...Let him in before it's too late.

Of all the people who have ever registered at this site, YOU are in more need of saving than anyone i have ever run across here.

I'm adding you to my prayers, and i pray that God reaches your heart someday because you are indeed a troubled soul.

God Bless You, My Brother! You can pray for whatever you want to pray for!

That said, I´m turning 38 on March 16, and nothing I´ve seen, read or experienced has brought be anywhere close to believing in any kind of god. Quite the contrary, it all, especially Christianity and Islam, seems more and more ridiculous to me day by day.

Plus, I know I´m a better man than you and your types and I´ll tell you why. I believe everyone can believe and do whatever he feels like as long as he doesn´t hurt anybody or intrude on anybody´s privacy doing so. Therefore, even if I had my way 100% you and your kind could still lead the same life you´re leading now, could teach your kids what you deem appropriate, pray to whomever you want to etc etc etc. Sadly it ain´t the same the other way around. If you and your kind had your way 100% I´d be forced to change my lifestyle, and I´m not going to do that without putting up one hell of a fight.

Therefore, when it comes to others trying to force their beliefs onto me and others, I´m much more than just an internet tough guy. I´m certainly not going to change my ways anytime soon, and yes, I did piss on that dipshit´s Bible and I´d do so again!

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Katydid
HEY GERMANY...WHAT HAS GERMANY EVER DONE TO BE AN EXCELLENT MORALIST? ANYONE WANT TO SPECULATE ON GERMANY? INSTEAD OF FALLING RIGHT IN WITH THE HITLER TRASH AND DOWN AMERICA FOR SAVING THE JEWS LIVES? THAT ALONE MAKES UP FOR A LOT OF PAST SINS. Have you got anything of substance to say?

No!

Guessed so!

Why don´t you go turn into a nun and lock yourself into a cubicle for the next 50 years!??

:fucku:

[Warham]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
Sure helped justify:

-slaughtering and raping the Native Americans

-raping and exploiting millions of slaves

-leading dozens of wars, many for selfish reasons and with atrocious methods

-supporting despotic regimes that killed and tortured thousands of their own people

-supporting organizations responsible for things likle death squads, for example in Columbia

-suppoting and harbouring terrorists, as long as they only bomb things like Cuban civilian airliners

-being the only civilized country other than Iran that executes minors and mentally handicapped people (not even China does that)


Yep, sure been an excellent moral basis!

I think you need to read the Bible before you answer with these ridiculous comments.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Warham
I think you need to read the Bible before you answer with these ridiculous comments. Read it, boring!

I prefer some Aleister Crowley.

:rockit2:

[Warham]

Sure ya did.

If you had, you wouldn't have written that inaccurate and ridiculous list.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Warham
Sure ya did.

If you had, you wouldn't have written that inaccurate and ridiculous list. You should learn how to read things in context!

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
You can pray for whatever you want to pray for!

That said, I´m turning 38 on March 16, and nothing I´ve seen, read or experienced has brought be anywhere close to believing in any kind of god. Quite the contrary, it all, especially Christianity and Islam, seems more and more ridiculous to me day by day.

Plus, I know I´m a better man than you and your types and I´ll tell you why. I believe everyone can believe and do whatever he feels like as long as he doesn´t hurt anybody or intrude on anybody´s privacy doing so. Therefore, even if I had my way 100% you and your kind could still lead the same life you´re leading now, could teach your kids what you deem appropriate, pray to whomever you want to etc etc etc. Sadly it ain´t the same the other way around. If you and your kind had your way 100% I´d be forced to change my lifestyle, and I´m not going to do that without putting up one hell of a fight.

Therefore, when it comes to others trying to force their beliefs onto me and others, I´m much more than just an internet tough guy. I´m certainly not going to change my ways anytime soon, and yes, I did piss on that dipshit´s Bible and I´d do so again!

That's just it, i'm not forcing anything on you. I'm not physically putting a bible in your hand, all i'm doing is praying for you.
I'm not invading your home and forcing you to listen to what i have to say, I'm not attacking you physically in any fashion, but you attacked a believer physically by urinating on his bible, so you did harm someone so you just contradicted yourself.

I don't know this person you are referring to, I don't know where their heart is as far as what they believe, so that doesn't concern me.

What concerns me is the hatred you displayed in this thread towards the believer, whatever their faith.
Were they right to continue speaking to you after you destroyed the bible? If he didn't react in anger then yes, he was doing his job.

All you had to do was walk away, or ignore them, but you didn't, you reacted in a violent way and attacked them by destroying their property.

You are free to believe whatever you choose, I would never stand in your way of using your Free Will, it is your right.

But remember this, The Devil is a liar and has convinced a lot of people that God does not exist, which is why the faithful are supposed to share the word of God with those who are lost.
If you don't think you are lost and are determined never to give him a chance, I'll just say God Bless, and keep you in my prayers.

If you have come to your choice on your own, then hold fast that which you believe.
If you have been taught what you believe based on traditions handed down by man, such as family and those who surround your everyday life, understand that the word "Tradition" means "Nothing Useful" and you have not come to this conclusion of your own will.

Someone showing concern for your spiritual well being and praying for you isn't a bad thing, it doesn't hurt, so next time maybe try saying Thanks for the concern as opposed to exposing your penis and urinating on someone's personal bible.

God Bless!

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Cathedral

All you had to do was walk away, or ignore them, but you didn't, you reacted in a violent way and attacked them by destroying their property.
I told him to fuck off, he didn´t.

I walked on to my car, he followed me.

I told him to fuck off again, again he didn´t.

He waved his bible at me all the time.

The rest you know!

[Cathedral]

kentuckyklira,

I don't agree with that kind of christian attitude, You would never see me engage in that sort of thing.

I am deeply sorry you had to deal with that type of experience.

I had a similar thing happen with a Johova's Witness that came to my home in the late 80's. Everyday the same person would leave a pamphlet called "The Watchtower" strapped to my door handel.
I told him on several occasions i was not interested and was already involved with my church, but he persisted in trying to convince me i was in with the wrong group.
So instead of getting angry I offered him a deal.
I told him i would invite him in and listen to what he had to say after he listened to me tell him about Jesus Christ, He refused and he never came back again.

Again, the person you encountered was wrong and i don't believe God condones that kind of behavior from those who claim to be his servents.
But please don't let that be representative of all who claim to be christians in this world.
I believe as Seshmeister stated yesterday that maybe 0.1% of all who go to church actually "get it".

I apologise for your experience because it can do more harm to those who they are speaking to as well as their own salvation if they use a "Beat You Over The Head" tactic.

My goal is to reach out and be a friend and share my faith with you, but if you aren't interested my only other option is to place it in the Lords hands that someday he will reach out to you and give you reason to believe in him.
After all, all things of God happens in his time, not ours.

If you ever need a friend to talk about anything, don't hesitate to let me know.

Take Care!

[ELVIS]

I don't believe a word you say, klira...

You're a liar, and an internet tough guy, as Cathedral said...

You didn't read the bible, and you didn't urinate on anyones bible...

If you had, that Christian man would have kicked your ass in the name of Jesus Christ, and then prayed for you...


Get out of here...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I don't believe a word you say, klira...

You're a liar, and an internet tough guy, as Cathedral said...

You didn't read the bible, and you didn't urinate on anyones bible...

If you had, that Christian man would have kicked your ass in the name of Jesus Christ, and then prayed for you...


Get out of here...

You're an 'internet toughguy' too Elvis.

[ELVIS]

Man, what's your problem ??

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Man, what's your problem ??

Your BS.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Cathedral
kentuckyklira,

I don't agree with that kind of christian attitude, You would never see me engage in that sort of thing.

I am deeply sorry you had to deal with that type of experience.

I had a similar thing happen with a Johova's Witness that came to my home in the late 80's. Everyday the same person would leave a pamphlet called "The Watchtower" strapped to my door handel.
I told him on several occasions i was not interested and was already involved with my church, but he persisted in trying to convince me i was in with the wrong group.
So instead of getting angry I offered him a deal.
I told him i would invite him in and listen to what he had to say after he listened to me tell him about Jesus Christ, He refused and he never came back again.

Again, the person you encountered was wrong and i don't believe God condones that kind of behavior from those who claim to be his servents.
But please don't let that be representative of all who claim to be christians in this world.
I believe as Seshmeister stated yesterday that maybe 0.1% of all who go to church actually "get it".

I apologise for your experience because it can do more harm to those who they are speaking to as well as their own salvation if they use a "Beat You Over The Head" tactic.

My goal is to reach out and be a friend and share my faith with you, but if you aren't interested my only other option is to place it in the Lords hands that someday he will reach out to you and give you reason to believe in him.
After all, all things of God happens in his time, not ours.

If you ever need a friend to talk about anything, don't hesitate to let me know.

Take Care! Cool with me!

So we seem to be able to understand each other after all!

Should you ever be in Cologne, let me know, we´ll have a beer at a place I know the DJ will play some classic VH or solo Dave stuff!

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I don't believe a word you say, klira...

You're a liar, and an internet tough guy, as Cathedral said...

You didn't read the bible, and you didn't urinate on anyones bible...

If you had, that Christian man would have kicked your ass in the name of Jesus Christ, and then prayed for you...


Get out of here... Go spend a night with Katydid!

You don´t have to believe a word I say and I have no obligation to prove anything to you. That´s part of what the internet is about, live with it!

:splooge:

[ELVIS]

Well, if you can't even be truthful on a message board, you need help...


:elvis:

[FORD]

Why do you worry if some guy in Germany is lying, but NOT that your so called pResident is lying every time he opens his mouth?

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Well, if you can't even be truthful on a message board, you need help...


:elvis: I am truthful!

All I said is that, since it´s the internet, you´re free to believe or not believe whatever anybody posts here.

And, since we´re turning in circles here, I guess that´s all I have to say to you concerning this topic!

[Jesterstar]

What is this thread about??? I think I had a point untill I started reading it.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Jesterstar
What is this thread about??? I think I had a point untill I started reading it. I don´t know what it was about initially,

but now it´s about some people believing that some hippy in sandals who got himself nailed to a tree some 2000 years ago was some kind of god´s son,

but something a humble German posts here can´t be true!

[Jesterstar]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
I don´t know what it was about initially,

but now it´s about some people believing that some hippy in sandals who got himself nailed to a tree some 2000 years ago was some kind of god´s son,

but something a humble German posts here can´t be true!

I've never seen or felt proof that Jesus was anything more than a man. There were other profits during that time also that are ignored and had followers also.

I'm interested in what keeps their faith strong??? So far the Teachings of Jesus have been manipulated to control man and not empower us.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Jesterstar
I'm interested in what keeps their faith strong??? Sheep only feel well in a herd!

[Jesterstar]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
Sheep only feel well in a herd!

I find people that beleive in Jesus and the Bible have a single or a few exspirences that maintain their faith. They also grow up in deep raith handed to them from their parents.