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Nickdfresh
02-26-2005, 12:31 PM
Before you slam teachers, put yourself on their side of the desk, often dealing with enabling parents that back their kids no matter how wrong they are. This in large part is what is destroying education.

Parents Behaving Badly
Inside the new classroom power struggle: what teachers say about pushy moms and dads who drive them crazy

By NANCY GIBBS


Feb. 21, 2005
If you could walk past the teachers' lounge and listen in, what sorts of stories would you hear? An Iowa high school counselor gets a call from a parent protesting the C her child received on an assignment. "The parent argued every point in the essay," recalls the counselor, who soon realized why the mother was so upset about the grade. "It became apparent that she'd written it."

A sixth-grade teacher in California tells a girl in her class that she needs to work on her reading at home, not just in school. "Her mom came in the next day," the teacher says, "and started yelling at me that I had emotionally upset her child."

A science teacher in Baltimore, Md., was offering lessons in anatomy when one of the boys in class declared, "There's one less rib in a man than in a woman." The teacher pulled out two skeletons--one male, the other female--and asked the student to count the ribs in each. "The next day," the teacher recalls, "the boy claimed he told his priest what happened and his priest said I was a heretic."

A teacher at a Tennessee elementary school slips on her kid gloves each morning as she contends with parents who insist, in writing, that their children are never to be reprimanded or even corrected. When she started teaching 31 years ago, she says, "I could make objective observations about my kids without parents getting offended. But now we handle parents a lot more delicately. We handle children a lot more delicately. They feel good about themselves for no reason. We've given them this cotton-candy sense of self with no basis in reality. We don't emphasize what's best for the greater good of society or even the classroom."

When our children are born, we study their every eyelash and marvel at the perfection of their toes, and in no time become experts in all that they do. But then the day comes when we are expected to hand them over to a stranger standing at the head of a room full of bright colors and small chairs. Well aware of the difference a great teacher can make--and the damage a bad teacher can do--parents turn over their kids and hope. Please handle with care. Please don't let my children get lost. They're breakable. And precious. Oh, but push them hard and don't let up, and make sure they get into Harvard.

But if parents are searching for the perfect teacher, teachers are looking for the ideal parent, a partner but not a pest, engaged but not obsessed, with a sense of perspective and patience. And somehow just at the moment when the experts all say the parent-teacher alliance is more important than ever, it is also becoming harder to manage. At a time when competition is rising and resources are strained, when battles over testing and accountability force schools to adjust their priorities, when cell phones and e-mail speed up the information flow and all kinds of private ghosts and public quarrels creep into the parent-teacher conference, it's harder for both sides to step back and breathe deeply and look at the goals they share.

Ask teachers about the best part of their job, and most will say how much they love working with kids. Ask them about the most demanding part, and they will say dealing with parents. In fact, a new study finds that of all the challenges they face, new teachers rank handling parents at the top. According to preliminary results from the MetLife Survey of the American Teacher, made available exclusively to TIME, parent management was a bigger struggle than finding enough funding or maintaining discipline or enduring the toils of testing. It's one reason, say the Consortium for Policy Research in Education and the Center for the Study of Teaching and Policy, that 40% to 50% of new teachers leave the profession within five years. Even master teachers who love their work, says Harvard education professor Sara Lawrence-Lightfoot, call this "the most treacherous part of their jobs."

"Everyone says the parent-teacher conference should be pleasant, civilized, a kind of dialogue where parents and teachers build alliances," Lawrence-Lightfoot observes. "But what most teachers feel, and certainly what all parents feel, is anxiety, panic and vulnerability." While teachers worry most about the parents they never see, the ones who show up faithfully pose a whole different set of challenges. Leaving aside the monster parents who seem to have been born to torment the teacher, even "good" parents can have bad days when their virtues exceed their boundaries: the eager parent who pushes too hard, the protective parent who defends the cheater, the homework helper who takes over, the tireless advocate who loses sight of the fact that there are other kids in the class too. "I could summarize in one sentence what teachers hate about parents," says the head of a private school. "We hate it when parents undermine the education and growth of their children. That's it, plain and simple." A taxonomy of parents behaving badly:

•THE HOVERING PARENT

It was a beautiful late morning last May when Richard Hawley, headmaster at University School in Cleveland, Ohio, saw the flock of mothers entering the building, eager and beaming. "I ask what brings them to our halls," he recalls. "They tell me that this is the last day the seniors will be eating lunch together at school and they have come to watch. To watch their boys eat lunch? I ask. Yes, they tell me emphatically. At that moment, a group of lounging seniors spot their mothers coming their way. One of them approaches his mother, his hands forming an approximation of a crucifix. 'No,' he says firmly to his mother. 'You can't do this. You've got to go home.' As his mother draws near, he hisses in embarrassment, 'Mother, you have no life!' His mother's smile broadens. 'You are my life, dear.'"

Parents are passionate, protective creatures when it comes to their children, as nature designed them to be. Teachers strive to be dispassionate, objective professionals, as their training requires them to be. Throw in all the suspicions born of class and race and personal experience, a culture that praises teachers freely but pays them poorly, a generation taught to question authority and a political climate that argues for holding schools ever more accountable for how kids perform, and it is a miracle that parents and teachers get along as well as they do. "There's more parent involvement that's good--and bad," notes Kirk Daddow, a 38-year veteran who teaches Advanced Placement history in Ames, Iowa. "The good kind is the 'Make yourself known to the teacher; ask what you could do.' The bad kind is the 'Wait until something happens, then complain about it and try to get a grade changed.'" Overall, he figures, "we're seeing more of the bad."

Long gone are the days when the school was a fortress, opened a couple of times a year for parents' night and graduation but generally off limits to parents unless their kids got into trouble. Now you can't walk into schools, public or private, without tripping over parents in the halls. They volunteer as library aides and reading coaches and Mentor Moms, supplement the physical-education offerings with yoga and kickboxing, sponsor faculty-appreciation lunches and fund-raising barbecues, supervise field trips and road games and father-daughter service projects. Even the heads of boarding schools report that some parents are moving to live closer to their child's school so that they can be on hand and go to all the games. As budgets shrink and educational demands grow, that extra army of helpers can be a godsend to strapped schools.

But parents, it turns out, have a learning curve of their own. Parents who are a welcome presence in elementary school as library helpers need to learn a different role for junior high and another for high school as their children's needs evolve. Teachers talk about "helicopter parents," who hover over the school at all times, waiting to drop in at the least sign of trouble. Given these unsettled times, if parents feel less in control of their own lives, they try to control what they can, which means everything from swooping down at the first bad grade to demanding a good 12 inches of squishy rubber under the jungle gym so that anyone who falls will bounce right back. "The parents are not the bad guys," says Nancy McGill, a teacher in Johnston, Iowa, who learned a lot about handling parents from being one herself. "They're mama grizzly bears. They're going to defend that cub no matter what, and they don't always think rationally. If I can remember that, it defuses the situation. It's not about me. It's not about attacking our system. It's about a parent trying to do the best for their child. That helps keep the personal junk out of the way. I don't get so emotional."

While it's in the nature of parents to want to smooth out the bumps in the road, it's in the nature of teachers to toss in a few more: sometimes kids have to fail in order to learn. As children get older, the parents may need to pull back. "I believe that the umbilical cord needs to be severed when children are at school," argues Eric Paul, a fourth- and fifth-grade teacher at Roosevelt Elementary School in Santa Monica, Calif. He goes to weekend ball games and piano recitals in an effort to bond with families but also tries to show parents that there is a line that shouldn't be crossed. "Kids need to operate on their own at school, advocate on their own and learn from each other. So in my class, parents' involvement is limited," he says.

High schools, meanwhile, find themselves fending off parents who expect instant responses to every e-mail; who request a change of teacher because of "poor chemistry" when the real issue is that the child is getting a poor grade; who seek out a doctor who will proclaim their child "exceptionally bright but with a learning difference" that requires extra time for testing; who insist that their child take five Advanced Placement classes, play three varsity sports, perform in the school orchestra and be in student government--and then complain that kids are stressed out because the school doesn't do enough to prevent scheduling conflicts. Teachers just shake their heads as they see parents so obsessed with getting their child into a good college that they don't ask whether it's the right one for the child's particular interests and needs.

And what if kids grow so accustomed to these interventions that they miss out on lessons in self-reliance? Mara Sapon-Shevin, an education professor at Syracuse University, has had college students tell her they were late for class because their mothers didn't call to wake them up that morning. She has had students call their parents from the classroom on a cell phone to complain about a low grade and then pass the phone over to her, in the middle of class, because the parent wanted to intervene. And she has had parents say they are paying a lot of money for their child's education and imply that anything but an A is an unacceptable return on their investment.

These parents are not serving their children well, Sapon-Shevin argues. "You want them to learn lessons that are powerful but benign. Your kid gets drunk, they throw up, feel like crap--that's a good lesson. They don't study for an exam, fail it and learn that next time they should study. Or not return the library book and have to pay the fine. But when you have a kid leave their bike out, it gets run over and rusty, and you say, 'O.K., honey, we'll buy you a new one,' they never learn to put their bike away."

•THE AGGRESSIVE ADVOCATE

Marguerite Damata, a mother of two in Silver Spring, Md., wonders whether she is too involved in her 10-year-old son's school life. "Because he's not in the gifted and talented group, he's almost nowhere," she says. "If I stopped paying attention, where would he be?" Every week she spends two hours sitting in his math class, making sure she knows the assignments and the right vocabulary so that she can help him at home. And despite all she sees and all she does, she says, "I feel powerless there."

Parents understandably argue that there is a good reason to keep a close watch if their child is one of 500 kids in a grade level. Teachers freely admit it's impossible to create individual teaching programs for 30 children in a class. "There aren't enough minutes in the day," says Tom Loveless, who taught in California for nine years and is now director of the Brown Center on Education Policy at the Brookings Institution. "You have to have kids tackling subject matter together as a group. That's a shoe that will pinch for someone." Since the passage of the No Child Left Behind Act, which requires schools to show progress in reading and math test scores in Grades 3 through 8 across all racial and demographic groups, parents are worried that teachers will naturally focus on getting as many students as possible over the base line and not have as much time to spur the strongest kids or save the weakest. Some educators argue that you can agree on the goals of accountability and achievement, but given the inequalities in the system, not all schools have the means to achieve them. "A really cynical person who didn't want to spend any more money on an educational system might get parents and teachers to blame each other and deflect attention away from other imperfect parts of the system," observes Jeannie Oakes, director of the Institute for Democracy, Education and Access at UCLA.

Families feel they have to work the system. Attentive parents study the faculty like stock tables, looking for the best performer and then lobbying to get their kids into that teacher's class. "You have a lot of mothers who have been in the work force, supervising other people, who have a different sense of empowerment and professionalism about them," notes Amy Stuart Wells, professor of sociology and education at Columbia University's Teachers College. "When they drop out of the work force to raise their kids, they see being part of the school as part of their job." Monica Stutzman, a mother of two in Johnston, Iowa, believes her efforts helped ensure that her daughter wound up with the best teacher in each grade. "We know what's going on. We e-mail, volunteer on a weekly basis. I ask a lot of questions," she says. "I'm not there to push my children into things they're not ready for. The teachers are the experts. We've had such great experiences with the teacher because we create that experience, because we're involved. We don't just get something home and say, 'What's this?'"

Parents seeking to stay on top of what's happening in class don't have to wait for the report card to arrive. "Now it's so easy for the parents through the Internet to get ahold of us, and they expect an immediate response," notes Michael Schaffer, a classroom veteran who teaches AP courses at Central Academy in Des Moines, Iowa. "This e-mail--'How's my kid doing?'--could fill my day. That's hyperbole. But it's a two-edged sword here, and unfortunately it's cutting to the other side, and parents are making demands on us that are unreasonable. Yeah, they're concerned about their kids. But I'm concerned about 150 kids. I don't have time during the day to let the parent know when the kid got the first B." As more districts make assignments and test scores available online, it may cut down on the "How's he doing" e-mails but increase the "Why did she get a B?" queries.

Beneath the ferocious jostling there is the brutal fact that outside of Lake Wobegon, not all children are above average. Teachers must choose their words carefully. They can't just say, "I'm sorry your child's not as smart as X," and no parent wants to hear that there are five other kids in the class who are a lot smarter than his or hers. Younger teachers especially can be overwhelmed by parents who announce on the first day of school that their child is going to be the smartest in the class and on the second day that he is already bored. Veteran teachers have learned to come back with data in hand to show parents who boast that their child scored in the 99th percentile on some aptitude test that 40 other students in the class did just as well.

It would be nice if parents and teachers could work together to improve the system for everyone, but human nature can get in the way. Both sides know that resources are limited, and all kinds of factors play into how they are allocated--including whose elbows are sharpest. Many schools, fearful of "bright flight," the mass departure of high-achieving kids, feel they have no choice but to appease the most outspoken parents. "I understand, having been a parent, the attitude that 'I don't have time to fix the whole system; I don't have time and energy to get rid of systemic injustice, racism, poverty and violence; I have to get what's right for my kid,'" says Syracuse's Sapon-Shevin. "But then the schools do educational triage. They basically attend to the most vocal, powerful people with more resources. They say, 'Don't get angry. We'll take care of this issue.' And they mean, 'We'll take care of it for your child. We'll get your kid out of the class with the bad teacher and leave the other kids in there.'"

At the deepest level, teachers fear that all this parental anxiety is not always aimed at the stuff that matters. Parents who instantly call about a grade or score seldom ask about what is being taught or how. When a teacher has spent the whole summer brightening and deepening the history curriculum for her ninth-graders, finding new ways to surprise and engage them, it is frustrating to encounter parents whose only focus is on test scores. "If these parents were pushing for richer, more meaningful instruction, you could almost forgive them their obnoxiousness and inattention to the interests of all the other children," says Alfie Kohn, a Boston-based education commentator and author of Unconditional Parenting. But "we have pushy parents pushing for the wrong thing." He argues that test scores often measure what matters least--and that even high test scores should invite parents to wonder what was cut from the curriculum to make room for more test prep.

Kohn knows a college counselor hired by parents to help "package" their child, who had perfect board scores and a wonderful grade-point average. When it was time to work on the college essay, the counselor said, "Let's start with a book you read outside of school that really made a difference in your life." There was a moment of silence. Then the child responded, "Why would I read a book if I didn't have to?" If parents focus only on the transcript--drive out of children their natural curiosity, discourage their trying anything at which they might fail--their definition of success will get a failing grade from any teacher watching.

•THE PUBLIC DEFENDERS

By the time children turn 18, they have spent only 13% of their waking lives in the classroom. Their habits of mind, motivation and muscles have much more to do with that other 87%. But try telling that to an Ivy-educated mom and dad whose kids aren't doing well. It can't be the genes, Mom and Dad conclude, so it must be the school. "It's the bright children who aren't motivated who are most frustrating for parents and teachers," says Nancy McGill, a past president of the Iowa Talented and Gifted Association. "Parents don't know how to fix the kid, to get the kid going. They want us to do it, and discover we can't either." Sometimes bright kids intentionally work just hard enough to get a B because they are trying to make a point about what should be demanded of them, observes Jennifer Loh, a math teacher at Ursuline Academy in Dallas. "It's their way of saying to Mom and Dad, 'I'm not perfect.'" Though the best teachers work hard to inspire even the most alienated kids, they can't carry the full burden of the parents' expectations. In his dreams, admits Daddow, the Iowa history teacher, what he would like to say is "Your son or daughter is very, very lazy." Instead, he shows the parents the student's work and says, "I'm not sure I'm getting Jim's best effort."

When a teacher asks parents to be partners, he or she doesn't necessarily mean Mom or Dad should be camping in the classroom. Research shows that though students benefit modestly from having parents involved at school, what happens at home matters much more. According to research based on the National Education Longitudinal Study, a sample of nearly 25,000 eighth-graders, among four main areas of parental involvement (home discussion, home supervision, school communication and school participation), home discussion was the most strongly related to academic achievement.

Any partnership requires that both sides do their part. Teachers say that here again, parents can have double standards: Push hard, but not too hard; maintain discipline, but don't punish my child. When teachers tell a parent that a child needs to be reprimanded at home, teachers say they often get the response, "I don't reprimand, and don't tell me how to raise my child." Older teachers say they are seeing in children as young as 6 and 7 a level of disdain for adults that was once the reserve of adolescents. Some talk about the "dry-cleaner parents" who drop their rambunctious kids off in the morning and expect them to be returned at the end of the day all clean and proper and practically sealed in plastic.

At the most disturbing extreme are the parents who like to talk about values but routinely undermine them. "You get savvier children who know how to get out of things," says a second-grade teacher in Murfreesboro, Tenn. "Their parents actually teach them to lie to dodge their responsibilities." Didn't get your homework done? That's O.K. Mom will take the fall. Late for class? Blame it on Dad. Parents have sued schools that expelled kids for cheating, on the grounds that teachers had left the exams out on a desk and made them too easy to steal. "Cheating is rampant," says Steve Taylor, a history teacher at Beverly Hills High School in California. "If you're not cheating, then you're not trying. A C means you're a loser." Every principal can tell a story about some ambitious student, Ivy bound, who cheats on an exam. Teacher flunks her. Parents protest: She made a mistake, and you're going to ruin her life. Teachers try to explain that good kids can make bad decisions; the challenge is to make sure the kids learn from them. "I think some parents confuse advocating on behalf of their student with defending everything that the student does," says Scott Peoples, a history teacher at Skyview High School outside Denver.

Student-teacher disputes can quickly escalate into legal challenges or the threat of them. The fear of litigation that has given rise to the practice of defensive medicine prompts educators to practice defensive teaching. According to Forrest T. Jones Inc., a large insurer of teachers, the number of teachers buying liability insurance has jumped 25% in the past five years. "A lot of teachers are very fearful and don't want to deal with it," says Roxsana Jaber-Ansari, who teaches sixth grade at Hale Middle School in Woodland Hills, Calif. She has learned that everything must be documented. She does not dare accuse a student of cheating, for instance, without evidence, including eyewitness accounts or a paper trail. When a teacher meets with a student alone, the door always has to be open to avoid any suspicion of inappropriate behavior on the teacher's part. "If you become angry and let it get to you, you will quit your job," says Jaber-Ansari. "You will hate what you do and hate the kids."

•THE CULTURE WARRIORS

Teachers in schools with economically and ethnically diverse populations face a different set of challenges in working with parents. In less affluent districts, many parents don't have computers at home, so schools go to some lengths to make contact easier. Even 20 minutes twice a year for a conference can be hard for families if parents are working long hours at multiple jobs or have to take three buses to get to the school. Some teachers visit a parent's workplace on a Saturday or help arrange language classes for parents to help with communication. Particularly since a great goal of education is to level the playing field, teachers are worried that the families that need the most support are least able to ask for it. "The standards about what makes a good parent are always changing," notes Annette Lareau, a professor of sociology at Temple University, who views all the demand for parent involvement as a relatively recent phenomenon. "And it's middle-class parents who keep pace."

Lareau also sees cultural barriers getting in the way of the strong parent-teacher alliance. When parents don't get involved at school, teachers may see it as a sign of indifference, of not valuing education--when it may signal the reverse. Some cultures believe strongly that school and home should be separate spheres; parents would no more interfere with the way a teacher teaches than with the way a surgeon operates. "Working-class and poor families don't have a college education," says Lareau. "They are looking up to teachers; they respect teachers as professionals. Middle-class parents are far less respectful. They're not a teacher, but they could have been a teacher, and often their profession has a higher status than teachers'. So they are much more likely to criticize teachers on professional grounds."

And while she views social class as a major factor in shaping the dynamic, Lareau finds that race continues to play a role. Middle-class black parents, especially those who attended segregated schools, often approach the teacher with caution. Roughly 90% of teachers are white and middle class, and, says Lareau, many black parents are "worried that teachers will have lowered expectations of black children, that black boys will be punished more than white boys. Since teachers want parents to be positive and supportive, when African-American parents express concerns about racial insensitivity, it can create problems in their relationship."

Finally, as church-state arguments boil over and principals agonize over what kids can sing at the Winter Concert, teachers need to be eternally sensitive to religious issues as well. This is an arena where parents are often as concerned about content as grades, as in the debate over creationism vs. evolution vs. intelligent design, for instance. Teachers say they have to become legal scholars to protect themselves in a climate where students have "rights." Jaber-Ansari was challenged for hanging Bible quotes on her classroom walls. But she had studied her legal standing, and when she was confronted, "the principal supported me 100%," she says.

Perhaps the most complicated part of the conversation--beyond all the issues of race and class and culture, the growing pressures to succeed and arguments over how success should be defined--is the problem of memory. When they meet in that conference, parent and teacher bring their own school experiences with them--what went right and wrong, what they missed. They are determined for it to be different for the child they both care about. They go into that first-grade room and sit in the small chairs and can easily be small again themselves. It is so tempting to use the child's prospects to address their own regrets. So teachers learn to choose their words with care and hope that they can build a partnership with parents that works to everyone's advantage and comes at no one's expense. And parents over time may realize that when it comes to their children, they still have much to learn. "I think that we love our children so much that they make us a little loony at times," says Arch Montgomery, head of the Asheville School in North Carolina. He winces at parents who treat their child as a cocktail-party trophy or a vanity sticker for the window of their SUV, but he also understands their behavior. "I think most parents desperately want to do what is right for their kids. This does not bring out the better angels of our natures, but it is understandable, and it is forgivable."

TIME (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1027485,00.html?promoid=AP)

--With reporting by Amanda Bower/New York, Melissa August/Washington, Anne Berryman/Athens, Cathy Booth Thomas/ Dallas, Rita Healy/Denver, Elizabeth Kauffman/ Nashville, Jeanne McDowell/Los Angeles and Betsy Rubiner/Des Moines

academic punk
02-26-2005, 12:43 PM
For the most part, I agree with this. It's the same as viewers complaingin about what's on television, or all the attention that, say, the Scott Peterson trial received or Brad and Jen's breakup got. The media only gave us what we the viewers demanded.

Parents place all these expectations and demands for their childs education, and so much of it is conflicting, that nthe teacher winds up with their hands tied and ends up with a version of teaching that is "snaitized for your protection" and places less emphasis on education and more on "results".

I know the NYC schoo system is a mess right now, but it is in a transitional period and does seem to be moving in the right direction.

This all leaves out the issue of what teachers earn. Which is criminal.

Big Train
02-26-2005, 01:30 PM
I concur..

DrMaddVibe
02-26-2005, 02:28 PM
I believe education to be a partnership. It's not mutually exclusive to either and without the other is hollow.

A public/private circillium is taught in a classroom environment with discussion among classmates and a teacher that understands it. I have serious doubts with regards to home schooling. I understand that there are test to maintain the education requirements, but coming from a taxpaying standpoint I feel that to unplug from a tested structure is an afront to any child. Standardizied testing shouldn't be only for students. Test the teachers as well. Monitor the classrooms so slanted/biased viewpoints aren't allowed to be taught with authority.

It's a 2-way street and fell that kids get what they put into it. Would I do my child's homework? Hell no! If I'm asked for assistance I will, but I'll be damned if I'm going to build the Capitol building out of sugar cubes or write a dissertation for my kids. I will make sure they have opportunity to study and do their assignments. I open the line of communication with my kids teachers and don't wait until there's a surprise problem. I expect the same from them too.

I've long been on the side of more pay for educators of all ranks. American society has it turned upside down with regards to pay. We'll give an athlete or musician exhorbitant amounts of money only to see them abuse themselves or their position for entertainment purposes and critical positions like nursing, teaching, firemen and policemen get a paltry salary to eek by on and have to either wait several years for tenure or work a 2nd job!

Where I live in FL, the governor has taken steps to make testing mandatory and to raise the pay. IT's a 1st step to what I believe to be a "righting of the course" before we come ashore on dry land.

BigBadBrian
02-26-2005, 02:33 PM
Of course teachers are not entirely to blame for the current state of the education system. They are, however, the primary reason. That's the honest truth.

Parents, however, are the primary ones to go to when a certain child goes bad. They are the ones ultimately accountable as to what a child learns and how a child turns out.

Nickdfresh
02-26-2005, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Of course teachers are not entirely to blame for the current state of the education system. They are, however, the primary reason. That's the honest truth.

Parents, however, are the primary ones to go to when a certain child goes bad. They are the ones ultimately accountable as to what a child learns and how a child turns out.

Why are they the "primary reason?" How many hours a day do "they," as in each one, spend with a child?

How many hours does the parent? Does the parent use TV to babysit or pacify their kid? Does the parent allow their child to watch inappropriate shows, film, etc?

Also, what about superintendents and principals? They impact school policies far more than one individual teacher can. One bad principal can harass or fire a dozen "good" teachers simply because they refuse to pass students to "get rid of them."

What about the over reliance on test scores to indicate development? Tests are notoriously unreliable and are simply made easier.

And how can you hold two equivalent high schools in size, and enrollment be held accountable to the same standard when one gets half the budget of the other?

Read this book, then tell me all about education in the USA Blunder:
http://www.joshshainin.com/SavageInequalities.jpg

academic punk
02-26-2005, 03:29 PM
I agree with Nick. Everyone is making good points, but I see very few parents these days doing much "parenting". Oh, they spend "qulaity time" and whatnot, but for the most part, it's an attitude of "get on that school bus, and come home smarter. Go to school and learn something."

As Nick cited, most mothers and fathers have ceded parenting to the televsion. and why not? it's easier, it's quicker, and it mesmerizes the child into a silent, blank-faced stupor.


Now, it IS harder and harder for parents to spend time with their families: the work day is gettign longer, and the cost of living is getting larger. Parents have to work more, and as an obvious consequence, theyre spending less time with their loved ones.

The curriculum is set by administration, not individual teachers.

and bottom line you're not going to get the best of the best - and you're sure not going to be able to keep them - if teachers don;t start seeing a better livelihood.

BigBadBrian
02-26-2005, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh

Also, what about superintendents and principals? They impact school policies far more than one individual teacher can. One bad principal can harass or fire a dozen "good" teachers simply because they refuse to pass students to "get rid of them."

What about the over reliance on test scores to indicate development? Tests are notoriously unreliable and are simply made easier.

And how can you hold two equivalent high schools in size, and enrollment be held accountable to the same standard when one gets half the budget of the other?

Read this book, then tell me all about education in the USA Blunder:


Teacher, Principal, Superintendents...what's the diff? They are all teachers, right? You're getting touchy about your profession, Nick.

Good thing you're getting out of it. ;) :D

BigBadBrian
02-26-2005, 10:42 PM
Originally posted by academic punk
I agree with Nick. Everyone is making good points, but I see very few parents these days doing much "parenting". Oh, they spend "qulaity time" and whatnot, but for the most part, it's an attitude of "get on that school bus, and come home smarter. Go to school and learn something."



Quality time is bullshit. There is no substitute for Quantity Time. :gulp:

mwsully
02-26-2005, 11:13 PM
Nick,

Now I know why I like your opinions so much...a fellow teacher! I agree with everything you say, and I'm shocked that BBB would put a majority of blame on teachers.

As teachers, we are very much like soldiers in the trenches. We do well when trained well, given the right equipment, supported by the community, and supported by our commanders. There is very much a trickle-down effect in the hierarchy of public education. So, if you see problems in the system, look no further than the person who is ultimately responsible, i.e. our governor.

In California, when it comes to per pupil spending, we are close to last in the U.S.

Granted, we could cut out a lot of "fat", and streamline some areas within the system, but please, us teachers have an intrinsic desire to prepare these children for the future, and we are straining ourselves...spending hours after school and on weekends to do so.

Bad leadership is to blame here. How many higher ups have come down to classroom teachers and actually asked for suggestions for improvement? How many have actually taken their suggestions seriously?

My personal opinion about G.W.'s "No Child Left Behind" program is of course a negative one. I would go further to say that he is purposefully trying to dismantle public education and go back to privatizing it, so that the wealthy children get the best education, and the poorer get no or limited education. Even if it's not his purpose, that is the path that is being created. Public eduation will fail if NCLB and other lofty programs continue.

mwsully
02-26-2005, 11:27 PM
I'm sorry, I didn't even address the parent issue. I'll make a quick statement.

Children at a certain age tend to value what parent's value. A parent showing evidence of valuing their child's education creates a mindset in the child that education is a pretty good thing, and worth the effort.

Parents have a huge responsibility and should take some blame. Sadly, some kids come into kindergarten not even knowing colors. COLORS! How hard would it be for a parent to talk with their child about colors pre-kindergarten? Or numbers 1-10? The alphabet? Those things are not too complex. Yet, many children begin their schooling without that knowledge. I would guess that normal parent/child communication would cover those areas eventually. Which makes me think that parents do not make time to communicate with them, do not think it has a huge impact on their future, or just plain do not think at all.

mwsully
02-26-2005, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Teacher, Principal, Superintendents...what's the diff? They are all teachers, right? You're getting touchy about your profession, Nick.

Good thing you're getting out of it. ;) :D

Teachers, principals, and superintendents all make some sort of impact, but as I've said previously, the person(s) that have the most impact, and therefore, are most to blame would be the government, most of whom were never teachers, and so have no $&%%^$ clue what it takes to create a successful classroom full of successful students. How do I know? Two words...err, acronyms: AYP and API. Enough said.

Nickdfresh
02-27-2005, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Teacher, Principal, Superintendents...what's the diff? They are all teachers, right? You're getting touchy about your profession, Nick.

Good thing you're getting out of it. ;) :D

I am very touchy about it, neurotic at one point. But think of a military ranking system. Senior officers have more authority than lieutenants, etc. It's simply not fair to kick the junior officers for the strategic policy failures of the high command and the executive paycheck collectors.

Cathedral
02-27-2005, 12:39 AM
The whole problem begins and ends with the parents. discipline is the job of the parents, teaching a child right from wrong is a job that belongs to the parents.
I don't send my daughter to school to be social, and i don't send her there to be babysat, I send her there to get an education and if the teachers have to spend time dealing with children who have disciplinary problems, my child along with others will suffer from that lost attention from doing their job, which is teaching.

If my daughter acts up, I get a note from the teacher and I deal with it at home.
I am surrounded by families that open the door after school and let the kids run amuck until they feel like being parents and call them in, usually just after dark.

Public schools aren't the healthiest atmosphere to put a child in, seriously.
My daughter had to deal with violence, ill mannered kids with dirty minds and bomb threats, that's right, I said bomb threats, and that was 1st grade.
One 6 year old threatened to shoot another kid with his daddy's gun and every parent got a note about it, this was 1st grade!

Since i put her in private school we have had to deal with none of that at all. Her grades improved, the time the teacher spends with the class is without interruption, and the kids all respond well to authority.
but i have met most of the parents and they are incredibly involved with their kids as well as i am.

Kids without guidance are the problem, and it starts with the parents not giving a damn.
My hat is off to anyone who chooses teaching as a career because i know for a fact that it is a job that takes a great deal of patience, and with such little pay, dedication i cannot understand.

I couldn't do it, I'd go crazy inside of one week and quit.

Nickdfresh
02-27-2005, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by Cathedral
The whole problem begins and ends with the parents. discipline is the job of the parents, teaching a child right from wrong is a job that belongs to the parents.
I don't send my daughter to school to be social, and i don't send her there to be babysat, I send her there to get an education and if the teachers have to spend time dealing with children who have disciplinary problems, my child along with others will suffer from that lost attention from doing their job, which is teaching.

If my daughter acts up, I get a note from the teacher and I deal with it at home.
I am surrounded by families that open the door after school and let the kids run amuck until they feel like being parents and call them in, usually just after dark.

Public schools aren't the healthiest atmosphere to put a child in, seriously.
My daughter had to deal with violence, ill mannered kids with dirty minds and bomb threats, that's right, I said bomb threats, and that was 1st grade.
One 6 year old threatened to shoot another kid with his daddy's gun and every parent got a note about it, this was 1st grade!

Since i put her in private school we have had to deal with none of that at all. Her grades improved, the time the teacher spends with the class is without interruption, and the kids all respond well to authority.
but i have met most of the parents and they are incredibly involved with their kids as well as i am.

Kids without guidance are the problem, and it starts with the parents not giving a damn.
My hat is off to anyone who chooses teaching as a career because i know for a fact that it is a job that takes a great deal of patience, and with such little pay, dedication i cannot understand.

I couldn't do it, I'd go crazy inside of one week and quit.

I am not saying let teachers off the hook either. I HAVE seen some dishonest, lazy teachers that taught little and did little more than babysit because it's just easier to do, then they faked the results on the end-of-year state exam.

Sometimes it seems the less you teach, the less crap you have to put up with. Teachers should be held accountable. The problem is, who do you trust to do it? Principals? They can be just as bad, or worse.

Cathedral
02-27-2005, 12:58 AM
Oh i agree 100%.
I have only had issues with 1 teacher in the 4 years my munchkin has been in school.
But she quit after a few parents filed formal complaints against her.

Don't get me wrong, I know there are teachers that fail to do their jobs effectively, but i'm lucky to live in a decent neighborhood and having a school that hires very good teachers.
of course i pay $360 a month in tuition, so i expect a higher standard, and we pretty much get it.

That cannot be said about the public system at all. you get what you get and they have beurocratic types to hide behind.

All i know is that i am extremely pleased with the education my daughter recieves.

JCOOK
02-27-2005, 01:21 AM
The only people or persons responsible for THEIR childs education is the PARENT. It does not take a village to raise a child. It takes a parent to say enough is efucking nuff . This is my child and he or she WILL GET A QUALITY EDUCATION!

Little_Skittles
02-27-2005, 11:46 AM
The problem isn't with the teachers, it's with the students, parents, government and teachers. Teachers try and teach with limited supplies available those being cut each and every year. How are you suppose to provide a good education if you don't have the materials? The students need to get their asses in gear and learn. The parents need to realize the problem in the class rooms. I think we should go back to old school with the paddle!

academic punk
02-28-2005, 10:13 PM
As I've said earlier: parents have less and less ability to BE with their children: the 40 hour work week is a thing of the past. That's reality. And if you are working a 40 hour work week or anytjhing less, you're probably working check-out at Wal-Mart and not even meeting the cost of living.

The "quantity time" that BBB cited is VERY difficult to achieve. Does that let them off the hook? Of course not. But it is more complex than just pointing the finger in any one direction.

Cathedral, I think a social factor is an ESSENTIAL reason to opt to send your kids to a school environment, rather than home schooling. It's there that you'll be exposed to different mind-sets, different abilities, people who think alike, people who have differing viewpoints. the isolation of home schooling is a massive deterrent. and a key element for a child especially is MAKING FRIENDS. It's the reason you exist at that age.

BigBadBrian
03-01-2005, 02:50 PM
Parents only option at this point: Homeschooling. :gulp:

Nickdfresh
03-01-2005, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Parents only option at this point: Homeschooling. :gulp:

So, you're ready to teach your kids the earth is flat and the was created 6000 years ago?

BigBadBrian
03-01-2005, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
So, you're ready to teach your kids the earth is flat and the was created 6000 years ago?

Anything to get them away from the imbeciles in the public school environment would be an improvement, wouldn't you say? Hmm?

Nickdfresh
03-01-2005, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Anything to get them away from the imbeciles in the public school environment would be an improvement, wouldn't you say? Hmm?

Do your children have 'adjustment' problems? But I do agree, the schools in Virginia are pretty lousy. They're Run by religious fanatics

NATEDOG001976
12-29-2005, 10:51 AM
Yes, and yes!

scamper
12-29-2005, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Anything to get them away from the imbeciles in the public school environment would be an improvement, wouldn't you say? Hmm?

I missed something who are the imbeciles?

Big Train
12-29-2005, 11:43 AM
I tried having my kids in LAUSD...waste of time. The whole school system is fucked. The teachers sucked, the remedial classes were stocked with more students than the regular classes and there were exemptions and people halfassing (on both sides of the fence) everywhere. I got them out after 6 months and now they are doing better. Don't even get me started on the union...

As far as being a hovering parent, I don't feel I am. Whatever goes on between teacher and student, I allow the teacher to make the call, in grades or punishment. I've seen what the article describes and we have had talks about that. I told him he needs to learn how to swim on his own, otherwise he will never have a backbone. The "helping" parents, the PTA physcos, the soccer moms are all a bunch of loons living through their kids, trying to maintain an illusion to the world of "How busy, they are". Yet they can't make a decent meal for the fucking kids. Some even appear to be attempting to be running buddies with the kids. It's sick. The kids have 4-5 DIFFERENT activities a week, something different everyday, which are full time disciplines (ballet, sports). The wives try to tell me they are "exposing" them to different things, but to me it seems like they are expoliting them, as the competition in each area negates the "exploration" bit. The kids seem burned out.

So yes, Nick, other than the half ass teachers (there are a few) and the union I can't stand, I'd say you are absolutely right, the parents of this generation are failing it mightily.

Romeo Delight
12-29-2005, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by JCOOK
The only people or persons responsible for THEIR childs education is the PARENT. It does not take a village to raise a child. It takes a parent to say enough is efucking nuff . This is my child and he or she WILL GET A QUALITY EDUCATION!


Exactly! A teacher can offer assistance to those kids struggling after school for example, but unless the parent is going to check that their kid is going, nothing will change. How hard is it to go over your child's work 3 times a week to see where they are at.

To rely on a teacher who has 30 other students is ridiculous! Real problem is people are having children for all the wrong reasons and not following through on parenting responsibilities.

scamper
12-29-2005, 12:37 PM
Originally posted by DavidFlamma
Exactly! A teacher can offer assistance to those kids struggling after school for example, but unless the parent is going to check that their kid is going, nothing will change. How hard is it to go over your child's work 3 times a week to see where they are at.

To rely on a teacher who has 30 other students is ridiculous! Real problem is people are having children for all the wrong reasons and not following through on parenting responsibilities.

So true

Nickdfresh
12-29-2005, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Big Train
I tried having my kids in LAUSD...waste of time. The whole school system is fucked. The teachers sucked, the remedial classes were stocked with more students than the regular classes and there were exemptions and people halfassing (on both sides of the fence) everywhere. I got them out after 6 months and now they are doing better. Don't even get me started on the union...

Any major city school district is going to face enormous problems from both sides of the fence...

I applaud you for taking an active interest for your kids education, that's the most important thing of all.

If in a major, city-wide district, the best thing is to get kids into the magnet schools, at least that's the case in BUFFALO. The magnet schools like Hutch Tech are tops in college prep, but everything else is just shit usually...


As far as being a hovering parent, I don't feel I am. Whatever goes on between teacher and student, I allow the teacher to make the call, in grades or punishment. I've seen what the article describes and we have had talks about that. I told him he needs to learn how to swim on his own, otherwise he will never have a backbone. The "helping" parents, the PTA physcos, the soccer moms are all a bunch of loons living through their kids, trying to maintain an illusion to the world of "How busy, they are". Yet they can't make a decent meal for the fucking kids. Some even appear to be attempting to be running buddies with the kids. It's sick. The kids have 4-5 DIFFERENT activities a week, something different everyday, which are full time disciplines (ballet, sports). The wives try to tell me they are "exposing" them to different things, but to me it seems like they are expoliting them, as the competition in each area negates the "exploration" bit. The kids seem burned out.

So yes, Nick, other than the half ass teachers (there are a few) and the union I can't stand, I'd say you are absolutely right, the parents of this generation are failing it mightily.

Yeah, unions often (though not always) share much of the blame...But don't ever let the administrations off the hook, there are some pretty sleazy principals and superintendents out there that are NOT about educating kids and are about saving money, making themselves look good by enabling the few bad kids, collecting a six-figure paycheck with as little effort as humanly possible...etc..


Who necroposted this thread NATEDOG? WTF?

BigBadBrian
12-29-2005, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by scamper
I missed something who are the imbeciles?

Don't get me wrong...

There are some good teachers out there, there really are, but there are a bunch of dickweeds that just don't give a shit.

I'm in a school district considered to be one of the best in the state.

Kids up through the High School levels are OK.....

After that, there is no way in the world I'd let a kid of mine in the halls of those schools.

Weed (or worse) in the bathrooms.

Kids making out in the hallways between classes. Both straight and gay/lesbian.

Fights.

Teachers observing the above and not doing squat.

Where is the accountability? Because too damn many parents bitch about the discipline and teachers get tired of it and therefore don't do shit.

My kids go to private schools now. Fuck that nonsense.

:( :mad:

jhale667
12-29-2005, 06:36 PM
I thank God every day (the older I get) may parents sent me to private school. I would/will do the same should I ever have kids. But the lack of disciplinary action from parents these days APPALLS me. I was in McDonald's not too long ago, and some 5 or 6 year old kid is hauling off PUNCHING his mom, going "I hate you, Mom! You're a bitch!" and the stupid mom is sitting there, TAKING it, going "Please stop, Tristan (or some other lame effeminate name---no wonder the kid already has issues)!" I wanted to beat the kid FOR her. If I had pulled that shit on MY mom, I'd STILL be walking with a limp...it infuriates me that you're not supposed to spank a kid nowdays if they get out of line...fear of a brutal ass-kicking kept me from getting into a LOT of trouble as a youngster. My parents weren't abusive by any means, but if I f*ed up, I PAID. Kids today have NO respect for authority instead of the healthy DISrespect we were raised with....that combined with enabling parents, this generation is screwed....

DLR'sCock
12-29-2005, 08:01 PM
Your kids are your responsibility. If you are not making sure that your kids are putting in the time to learn and do their studies then it is your fault. If you are not learning with them and teaching them and learning from them what is going on in their lives, and ignoring them, like most do, then it is your fault.


Parents expect teachers to fix the problems that their parenting creates.


Teachers and the educational systems do share responsibility as well.


You choose to bring children into this world, so suck it up and don't blame others.

bobgnote
01-04-2006, 04:13 PM
Every time that number spam shit comes up again, it will be deleted, you racist twat.