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Warham
03-11-2005, 05:58 PM
Why Hillary Clinton and John Kerry want to let criminals vote.

opinionjournal.com

Monday, March 7, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

The Constitution grants states the authority to determine "the Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections," but Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are pushing a Count Every Vote Act that would, among other things, force states to allow voters to register at the polls and declaring Election Day a federal holiday. And then they want to force every state to let felons vote--even though the 14th Amendment specifically permits states to disfranchise citizens convicted of "participation in rebellion, or other crime."

Forty-eight states deny the vote to at least some felons; only Vermont and Maine let jailbirds vote. Thirty-three states withhold the right to vote from those on parole. Eight deny felons the vote for life, unless they petition to have their rights restored, and the Clinton-Kerry proposal would force them to enfranchise felons (or "ex-felons," as Mrs. Clinton misleadingly calls them) once they've completed parole.

Mrs. Clinton says she is pushing her bill because she is opposed to "disenfranchisement of legitimate American voters." But it's hard not to suspect partisan motives. In a 2003 study, sociologists Chistopher Uggen and Jeff Manza found that roughly 4.2 million had been disfranchised nationwide, a third of whom had completed their prison time or parole. Taking into account the lower voter turnout of felons, they concluded that about one-third of them would vote in presidential races, and that would have overwhelmingly supported Democratic candidates. Participation by felons, Messrs. Uggen and Manza estimated, also would have allowed Democrats to win a series of key U.S. Senate elections, thus allowing the party to control the Senate continuously from 1986 until at least this January.

Liberals normally avoid partisan arguments in expressing their support for voting by felons. Instead, they point to the disproportionate racial impact. Sometimes they overstate that impact, as Mara Liasson of National Public Radio did last week when she said that "I would expect if you did a study, you would find that probably the vast majority of [felons] are African-American." In truth, a little more than a third of disfranchised felons are black. (sounds almost Deanish in her comments)

But that hasn't stopped advocates from raising the specter of Jim Crow. In 2002, the Maryland Legislature restored voting rights to twice-convicted nonviolent felons. The Old Line State already allowed those convicted of one felony to vote after finishing parole. Sen. Joan Carter Conway of Baltimore, said any restriction was excessive: "We don't want to go back to Jim Crow. We don't want to go back to poll taxes. We don't want to go back to literacy tests."

Such arguments disturbed many moderate blacks. "By making a race issue of restoring voting rights to convicted felons, they've once again convinced many that liberal black Democrats--and probably blacks in general--are soft on, or sympathetic to, criminals," wrote Gregory Kane, a Baltimore Sun columnist. "That's why you would never see the NAACP of the Walter White or Roy Wilkins era advocating the restoration of voting rights to convicted felons."

The allegation that laws restricting felon voting are racially motivated is flawed. Harvard historian Alexander Keyssar, author of the classic book "The Right to Vote," points out that many states passed such laws before the Civil War. Later, the laws were passed in many Southern states by Reconstruction government run by Republicans who supported black voting rights. Mr. Keyssar says that "most laws that disenfranchised felons had complex and murky origins," often centering on the notion that "a voter ought to be a moral person." As one judge noted: "Felons are not disenfranchised based on any immutable characteristic, such as race, but on their conscious decision to commit an act for which they assume the risks of detection and punishment."

This is not to say that some states don't take laws against felon voting too far. Some have overly cumbersome procedures for restoring such rights. One could certainly distinguish between nonviolent felons and murderers and rapists. If I sat in a legislature in a state with a lifetime ban, I would probably support restoring the right to vote to those who had completed jail time and parole. I wonder if liberals would similarly back restoration of the right to own a gun to felons who had similarly done their time and finished parole.
In any case, it is the states that should make such decisions, based on local circumstances and debate. And the states are moving. Delaware and New Mexico recently liberalized their laws. In Connecticut, then-Gov. John Rowland, a Republican, signed a bill in 2002 that allows felons on parole to vote--a provision he can now take advantage of, since he was forced from office last year and later pleaded guilty to a federal conspiracy charge.

Careful and considered deliberation at the state level isn't enough for Sens. Clinton and Kerry. They insist on a one-size-fits-all policy that Peter Kirsanow, a member of the U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, calls "nothing less than the wholesale restoration of voting rights to convicts--and that suggests an agenda that's more partisan than altruistic."

Republicans in Congress have their own partisan motivations for opposing any enfranchisement of felons. Leaving the matter to the states probably will mean more felons regaining the right to vote than Republicans would like but fewer than Democrats desire. And that's probably about the right solution.

Satan
03-11-2005, 07:25 PM
In reality all elections take place locally, yet in cases such as the President and congressional seats, they have national implications. For this reason, there should be one national standard for "felon" voting rights.

The only fair position is that once someone has served their sentence and is released back into society, their right to vote should be restored completely.

And in any case, questionable software like the shit Cruella Harris used in Florida should NEVER be allowed to determine voter eligibility. Any ex-convict will have a paper trail of documentation, and their relatives (or merely people with the same last name) are irrelevant.

academic punk
03-11-2005, 07:30 PM
Last time I checked, this country was touted as the one that provided second chances. Let 'em vote.

Big Train
03-11-2005, 07:51 PM
Let them vote..let them vote...let them vote...

DrMaddVibe
03-11-2005, 08:59 PM
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

NO.

Most of them are going to end up back in the clink anyway.

Big Train
03-11-2005, 10:11 PM
Is VOTING REALLY a deterrent to crime?

bueno bob
03-12-2005, 02:36 AM
Is voting really necessary at all?

;)

Nickdfresh
03-12-2005, 03:22 AM
"I think this legislation shows promise."
http://originaldo.com/richard-nixon-scarface.jpg

Satan
03-12-2005, 10:45 AM
Hey, don't be knocking Nixon now....

The man is the best recording engineer I ever had down here! The bastard can tape anything and make it sound good, even in Hell's terrible acoustics. Must have been all those years of practice in the White House. Dick's great with digital recording too. We pretty much switched over because tape tends to melt down here http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/smiley_evilFrown.gif

Too bad I can't send Dick up with some gear to record what's going on in the White House now. Problem is, you still can't trust the guy when you aren't in the same room with him.....

DLR'sCock
03-12-2005, 11:59 AM
Hillary Clinton and John Kerry are pushing a Count Every Vote Act that would, among other things, force states to allow voters to register at the polls and declaring Election Day a federal holiday.

I know this is a good idea here...





I am all for giving people a second chance as well....

bueno bob
03-12-2005, 01:12 PM
I'm for allowing people to register on voting day, no problem with that. If half of the people in this country actually WOULD vote, or at least if it was made a bit more convenient (hence, registering at the polling center), it might encourage more people to actually bother.

I think, personally, a lot of the general disinterest many people have in voting for anybody is the notion that, no matter which way they vote, changes will be insignificant and fleeting, if there end of being any changes to anything at all...often times, I myself feel the same way and have a hard time differentiating at all between Republicans and Democrats...I honestly think I should belong to another party rather than independent, because Dems and Cons, to me, are virtually two different heads on the same dragon.

Satan
03-12-2005, 02:38 PM
Dragon? You aren't trying to blame the fucked up American political system on me, are you? :(

DrMaddVibe
03-12-2005, 02:43 PM
The ability to register at the polls opens up voter fraud. One could go county to county voting. Then there are those that would be using dead people, false documents and illegal aliens. On top of what setting up polls in jails and prisons?

Wake up!

Satan
03-12-2005, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
The ability to register at the polls opens up voter fraud. One could go county to county voting.

I have to agree with AssVibe on this one. And he lives in Florida, so he knows voter fraud :D

academic punk
03-12-2005, 04:04 PM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
On top of what setting up polls in jails and prisons?




Jails and prisons would have absentee ballots.

BTW, it's in real bad taste for you to make a blanket assumption that 100% of convicts are going to wind up back in prison. None of us know where this life is going to take us. You could be driving down the street tomorrow, take your eyes off the road for a second, and suddenly be up for manslaughter for killing a kid.

Besides, part of the reason there are so many repeat offenders is that they fel like society has marginalized and rejected them. A tax-paying citizen - who has satisfied their on parole or probation requirements - deserves all the rights that anyone else has. might help - by some small measure - reduce the number of repeat offenders, too.

DrMaddVibe
03-12-2005, 04:40 PM
I don't make up the stats!

That's the facts, if you don't like them...too bad.

They are what they are.

Figures don't lie and liars always figure!

DrMaddVibe
03-12-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Big Train
Is VOTING REALLY a deterrent to crime?

It's not a deterrent...its a privilage.

academic punk
03-12-2005, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
I don't make up the stats!

That's the facts, if you don't like them...too bad.

They are what they are.

Figures don't lie and liars always figure!

uh...what are the facts?

Certainly, the facts aren't that 100% of felons re-enter the criminal justice system. And even if they did, should that mean that NO ONE should vote under the logic of they MAY someday face criminal charges for God knows what?

And let's look at the facts: the criminal justice system is ARBITRARY: if you've got the oney for the best legal representation, you TOO can get felony charges reduced to a misdemeanor or even dismissed.

DrMaddVibe
03-12-2005, 07:01 PM
http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/reentry/reentry.htm

academic punk
03-12-2005, 07:19 PM
I'm actually wondering what the property crimes were...

But as I said, those numbers fall far short of 100%, so I still don't understand the blanket assertion that

But, without looking at it again...I beleive it was 33% of those were drug-related. A great deal of those would be for possession for personal use rather than trafficking. You're telling me that you believe that someone who was busted for having an ounce of grass at the age of 24, who gets out at 27, serves a one year parole, should NEVER have the right to vote again for the rest of their life?

DrMaddVibe
03-12-2005, 09:08 PM
I'm not the emperor of the US. I'm not a governor of a State either, hell, I'm not even a politician!

It's MY opinion. In the grand scheme of things it means very little.

I've already stated my beliefs.

Big Train
03-13-2005, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
It's not a deterrent...its a privilage.

Uh huh. So let's run the tape here...someone commits a crime, loses all priveleges of society. Ok, no problem with that. HOWEVER, once they reenter society, should they not get some of those privleges back in order to re-integrate them into society?

Some rights, such as having a weapon, make sense to restrict from a felon. Voting does not...it just reinforces that society sees them as second class citizens, which does little to make them warm and fuzzy towards society when the temptation to cause more crime comes along.

Your right, numbers don't lie..but if you don't understand the logic behind how the numbers work, you can easily be fooled.