How America's Catholic Church crucified itself

[Seshmeister]

From the Sunday Times

4,000 paedophile priests identified
80 churches closed down
An archbishop forced to resign
$800m paid in lawsuits
100,000 child victims estimated — and thousands more still at risk



The archbishop's summer residence was the first to go. There had been questions: why does he need the picture-postcard colonial mansion, with its five bedrooms and private beach on the exclusive Cape Cod shoreline? Didn't he already have an opulent mansion in Boston? The three-story abode, resplendent in marble and mahogany to reflect its occupant's stature, had been built in the style of an Italian palazzo, and the archbishop's daily routine was catered for by a posse of nuns. The beach-house sale raised more than $2.5m, but it didn't stop there. His official Boston residence had to be sold too, and, along with 43 neighbouring acres, raised over $100m. But it didn't stop there either.

More than 80 Catholic churches in the Boston archdiocese were ordered to close their doors to save overheads. Parishioners occupied some of them, sleeping on pews, in a hopeless bid to save them. But still the inexorable rot ate away at the fabric of the church.

The archbishop of Boston, Cardinal Bernard Law, 74, was forced to resign. He had paid a heavy personal price. This only son of an air-force colonel, who joined the priesthood in 1961 and became one of the most powerful men in the United States after fighting in the front line of Mississippi's civil-rights movement, was ÒretiredÓ to Rome — a life's work sullied because he put the church's name before the protection of his flock. Law had spent 18 years effectively protecting paedophile priests, who went on, time and again, to re-offend and rape children entrusted to their care by devout parents. It emerged that Law's response to overwhelming evidence of paedophile activity was simply to move the priest to another parish, often allowing them to continue working with children, to write them glowing references and tributes, and to pay off victims' families. More than 1,000 children in the Boston area were sacrificed in the interests of protecting the diocese from scandal.

The years of shielding abusive priests came back to haunt Law, when the weight of dammed-up outrage burst out of the confessional and swamped the church. Churches closed and the residences were sold to pay a massive legal bill that matched the enormity of the crime.

Investigations and the church's own files have revealed that more than 220 priests in the Boston archdiocese alone were guilty of molesting or abusing 789 children — and those were just the cases in which the victims were willing to come forward. It cost the archdiocese over $100m to settle claims from 500 victims. But the meltdown was not restricted to Boston. As the city's disgrace raged, more files were opened and investigations launched in other parts of the US. Hundreds, then thousands of victims across the country began to speak out. The high number of cases may have been dismissed as mass hysteria had it not been for the meticulous records kept by the Catholic Church itself. Over the past 50 years, its own internal investigations had secretly confirmed thousands of complaints, then buried them.

There are over 60m Catholics in the US; 194 archdioceses such as Boston, which average 100 parishes apiece; and nearly 45,000 priests to serve them all. As the victims have told their stories, so the archdioceses have paid the price. In Dallas the church has sold $11m worth of property to help fund a $30m settlement; in Providence, Rhode Island, the church has sold its bishop's summer residence to finance a $14m settlement for 36 cases of abuse; in California, Santa Rosa diocese has sold real estate to fund a $16m court case; and Orange County has paid over $100m to settle 87 lawsuits. Three dioceses — Spokane, Portland and Tucson — have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection; grand juries have begun hearings in Arizona, California, Maryland, Missouri, New York, Ohio, Pennsylvania, South Carolina and Massachusetts. Eight bishops have resigned and more could follow as the revelations mount. And the church faces one monumental case in Los Angeles, where 544 victims may cost the church up to $1.5 billion.

The shame being heaped on the Catholic Church hierarchy is overwhelming. The governor of Oklahoma, Frank Keating, has likened the Catholic Church in the US to the mafia. Congregations across the country have dropped by up to 20% as the faithful protest in support of transparency and reform; annual income of around $7.5 billion has dropped sharply; and many parish priests withheld the contents of their collection plates from diocese coffers for fear that the money would be used to fund legal actions rather than their pensions.

Over $800m has been paid in settlements to date, and that figure is rising. Such is the weight of outstanding cases that the bill could eventually reach more than $2 billion. The enormity of the church's cover-up is demonstrated by one simple fact: the number of actual convictions of priests for child molestation in the US in the past 50 years can be counted on one hand. Yet the church itself has finally admitted that for years it has harboured thousands of paedophile priests.

Catholic bishops in America have spent years enforcing their own code of omerta to keep its sordid secret. Official Vatican policy dictated that priest abuse was "an unspeakable crime". Nobody in authority within the church was allowed to speak openly about child molestation by ordained priests. Officials dealing with allegations of child abuse had to take an oath of perpetual silence. The punishment for breaking this rule: excommunication.

But one woman could no longer keep quiet. Maryetta Dussourd, 58, has been bottling up her knowledge for 25 years. On a cold day soon after Thanksgiving, she lets it all out. She starts calmly enough, drinking coffee in a hotel by Boston's harbour. By the time she has finished, a mountain of tear-soaked tissues lie shredded in front of her. They mirror her life — rent apart by her priest and the church's failure to protect her family.

When she was 21, Maryetta Gallant married a young soldier, Ralph Lafayette Dussourd. The Irish-American girl was raised with a traditional devotion to the Catholic Church. Her elder sister, Marge, was a postulate nun with a Carmelite nursing order. Within four years, Maryetta and Ralph had three sons.

A daughter followed a few years later. Maryetta's life was her family and the church. Her husband, a general handyman, ran the Little League baseball team their sons played in, and at weekends he painted, decorated and helped to maintain the fabric of St Andrew's Church in Jamaica Plain, where Maryetta had had her first communion and was a member of the prayer group run by the assistant pastor, Father John Geoghan. "We were enslaved by obedience," says Maryetta, who is still deeply religious.

"When you become a Catholic you find out that your route to heaven is through priests and obeying the Ten Commandments. You always had to be obedient to the priests, the bishops, the cardinal and the Pope. Obedience about sex in marriage, on birth-control issues, how you get pregnant — all of that happened to me. This was how we were trained. I was told that the institution of marriage was to raise children. When my husband lost his job after the place where he worked burnt down, I wanted to use birth control. The priest said I knew the laws of the church and that it was unacceptable."

In 1978, Maryetta's niece, who lived in Stowton, Massachusetts, lost a baby daughter to cot death. She also had four boys, aged 10, 8, 5 and 4. To help her niece recover from her loss, Maryetta and Ralph took their four great-nephews into their home for nine months. Their own sons were now aged 12, 11 and 10; their daughter, 7. Caring for eight children proved no difficulty for Maryetta, who took everything in her stride, including being the local Cub Scout den mother. They enjoyed Thanksgiving, made cookies, painted each other's faces, and when they went out visiting, she proudly marched them along the pavement in four rows of two.

It was during this period that the parish priest Father John Geoghan began visiting the family home. "I know now that Father Geoghan was worming his way into our home, into our family, into our lives," Maryetta says. "But not then. I was so proud that he would visit us, my family, so often. I didn't even know what a paedophile was.

"Every mother who knew him said he was charming, youthful-looking and charismatic. It never occurred to me not to trust him. A priest in a collar is someone whose hands are consecrated, who is giving you the Eucharist, forgiving you your sins. Aren't you meant to believe that that person is trustworthy?" The question hangs in the air.

Maryetta is angry now as she struggles, 25 years later, to explain how she let this man into her home. After the children had their tea, the priest would take them up to their bedrooms to say prayers. This is where the abuse happened over many months — to all seven boys, five of whom shared one room. Maryetta never learnt what was happening until her great-nephews returned home to their mother. Then they confided in their aunt, Marge Gallant, the nun who had left her order and was now a nurse.

"She went into hysterics," recalls Maryetta. "My youngest nephew had a problem — he kept urinating in a wastepaper basket in the kitchen, but this happened after visits from Father Geoghan. She phoned me and told me not to let Geoghan into the house. Before I talked with my husband I asked my eldest boy about it. I said it was okay, he had done nothing wrong.

I just wanted to hear from him what had happened, and told him I already knew, because his cousins had told his Aunt Margaret.

"But he froze up and ran out of the back door saying, "No, Father Geoghan told me you'd hate me and that you'd never love me again because you love the church more than you love me."

"I brought him back in, hugged him and told him that what Father Geoghan said was a lie, that nobody could separate us or destroy the love I had for him." Then the boy revealed the priest had raped him several times.

"All my sons had the same fear — that I loved my religion more than them. That's what Geoghan told them. It was true that I did love the Catholic Church — I even read the Bible at the baseball field. My son was shaking and petrified. He was so scared that he believed this man when he said I would hate him, would disown him, not believe him or even love him any more."

Now Maryetta is sobbing inconsolably. She reaches for more tissues, dabbing her mascara-stained eyes. "My husband wanted to go to the church and confront the priest, to beat him up for touching his children. I had to stop him. He wanted to have the police there and to do it in front of the whole congregation. It tore him apart. Nobody can understand what this does to a family. Parents don't speak to each other, then they shut down, but you can sense what the other person is feeling — the anger, the hurt and the pain. And you feel, 'How could anyone hurt my baby?' We loved them and hugged them and told them, over and over, how much we loved them and their sister. How could he have done this to us?

How could he betray my husband, who was not even a Catholic but would have done anything to help the church? How could they have destroyed who he was because they had destroyed his boys, confused them, terrified them, had them screaming and crying at night, afraid to go out because they thought people would know what Geoghan had done to them? The boys thought people could see inside their minds. It was bad enough that this had happened to my three sons, but to my four nephews too? The youngest was only four. They were in my care. It was so overwhelming it shut me down. I imploded inside."

Slowly, Maryetta and Ralph's marriage began to disintegrate. Soon after learning the full extent of what had happened, they raised the matter with the church authorities. An auxiliary bishop, wearing his vestments, rang the doorbell at Marge Gallant's house. He had come to see the boys, who were staying with her. He spoke to them alone, gave them his blessing, then said "good night" and left. "And that was it — he walked out the door," says Maryetta. "He never had any conversation with Marge, asked how she was feeling or gave any apologies. He had asked the children about Geoghan and they told him."

A confidential note in the priest's personnel file in the chancery of the Boston archdiocese says: "He [Geoghan] admits the activity but does not feel it serious or a pastoral problem."

What nobody knew, outside a handful of people among the hierarchy of the archdiocese, was that Geoghan had been reported for child molestation in 1967 — 12 years before. Geoghan was removed from the parish and discreetly sent to the Seton Psychiatric Institute in Baltimore for treatment. He was then given another parish.

After Maryetta's sons and nephews were assaulted, a similar process followed: Geoghan was quietly sent away from St Andrew's for psychotherapy. Within a year he was made assistant vicar at St Brendan's parish in the Boston suburb of Dorchester. None of the parishioners knew they had a paedophile priest in their midst, but soon Marge Gallant saw him in a shop with a boy and reported the matter. Geoghan gave his bishop a simple explanation. He had attended a wake, visited the widow and offered to take her son to an ice-cream parlour. His story must have been accepted, because soon afterwards the priest took a three-month sabbatical at the Institute for Continuing Theological Education at the Casa Santa Maria, in Rome. The archdiocese even gave him $2,000 to cover his living expenses.

Later, Marge Gallant heard he was still having contact with children, but this time she wrote a formal letter to Law's predecessor, Cardinal Humberto Medeiros, pointing out that they had already been told about Geoghan's behaviour with children. "It appears that no action has been taken," she wrote on August 16, 1982. "Am I to assume now that we were patronised? Our family is deeply rooted in the Catholic Church. Our great-grandparents and parents suffered hardship and persecution for love of the church. Our desire is to protect the dignity of the holy orders, even in the midst of our tears and agony over the seven boys in our family who have been violated. We cannot undo that, but we are obligated to protect others from this abuse.

"It was suggested that we keep silent to protect the boys — my sister never received an apology from the church, much less any offer for counselling for the boys. It embarrasses me that the church is so negligentÉ My heart is broken over this whole mess, and to address my cardinal in this manner has taken its toll on me too."

Two years later, Marge Gallant discovered that Geoghan was again enjoying young boys' company. By now Medeiros had been replaced by Archbishop (later Cardinal) Bernard Law. A copy of the letter she wrote to Law on September 6, 1984, was found much later in the church records. As a result the archbishop removed the priest and "placed him between assignments".

But Geoghan had an ally in his uncle, Monsignor Mark H Keohane, an influential senior priest within the archdiocese. After Marge Gallant sent her second letter of protest and Geoghan had been withdrawn from St Brendan's parish, Keohane arranged to have lunch with Archbishop Law. Two days later, his nephew was given a new assignment: at St Julia's Parish in Weston, Massachusetts, he was placed in charge of three youth groups, which included altar boys.

Four years later, the church files reveal, complaints about Geoghan began again. A boy who was discovered performing oral sex on his brother told his mother that Geoghan did the same to him. The police were called in, but discrepancies in their stories led to the case being dropped. The same thing had occurred with other Massachusetts police forces, who were quietly persuaded to let the church authorities deal with allegations of abuse by priests.

Geoghan had clearly lied when he told his bishop: "I don't have the sexual attraction for children I had before." Doctors had diagnosed him a paedophile and reported: "We believe Father Geoghan is a high risk." A psychiatrist wrote to Bishop Robert J Banks of Boston: "You better clip his wings before there is an explosion; you can't afford to have him in a parish."

Geoghan was sent for a third period of treatment. Three months later his doctors said he was "in remission". His discharge assessment, which was sent to the archdiocese, described the priest as "immature and impulsive" and said he had a chronic dependent personality structure and a personality disorder "mostly of a histrionic and obsessive compulsive nature".

How did the archdiocese react to the clear and sustained danger Geoghan represented? Archbishop Law reassigned him to St Julia's parish in Weston, with a letter that said: "It's most heartening to know things have gone well for you and you are ready to resume your efforts with a renewed enthusiasm. I am confident you will again render fine priestly service to the people of God in St Julia's parish." But churchgoers were never warned about his paedophile activities. Within two years, the archdiocese records show, more complaints were surfacing:

October 23, 1991: a woman complained about Geoghan's behaviour in a swimming pool with a young boy.

July 3, 1992: Geoghan approached a young man he had first sexually abused over 20 years before. The victim threatened to kill the priest.

November 30, 1994: a single mother complains that Geoghan had taken her three young sons' underpants down and touched them.

Geoghan's reputation was starting to filter out of Boston's Catholic community, and a lawyer, Mitchell Garabedian, began documenting the cases of those few families prepared to break their silence. Before long, Maryetta Dussourd told the lawyer her story, and the cases against Geoghan began to pile up. A young man, Patrick McSorley, revealed how Geoghan had assaulted him. Tragically, he died from a drugs overdose last year. Six victims came forward from the same family in Geoghan's first parish. A woman said he had raped her in his car in 1965 when she was 15. She smelt the alcohol on his breath and he made her perform oral sex on him in the parish rectory.

Geoghan continued to protest his innocence but the Reverend Brian Flatley, a priest working in the Chancery in Boston, reported that Geoghan had not been totally honest. He had been lying to his doctors and to the archdiocese. "It is a shock to me to learn priests have lied to me. . . Geoghan is either being untruthful or is in massive denial." He was placed on administrative leave and soon the district attorney for Suffolk County and the Boston Police Sexual Assault Unit both began investigating. It was not until January 1997 that Geoghan's disgrace became public, when his story was published in a small-circulation newspaper. The archdiocese was now in grave difficulty, because the state of Massachusetts had changed the law that had previously allowed many child-abusers to escape justice. Their victims often waited until they were grown up before making a complaint, and by then too much time had elapsed since the original offence. Now a new law introduced a 15-year statute of limitation on child molestation.

A few weeks earlier, Geoghan had been given retirement status as a priest. His boss, Cardinal Law, wrote to him: "Yours has been an effective life of ministry, sadly impaired by illness. On behalf of those you have served well, and in my own name, I would like to thank you. . . God bless you, Jack." According to the Suffolk County prosecutor, Geoghan had continued to abuse children even while he was on administrative leave. In March 1998 the DA had issued a summons to the archdiocese for all the records pertaining to Father John J Geoghan. They wanted every scrap of paper that related to his time as a priest. It compelled Law to finally take action: Geoghan was defrocked.

It was only in January 2002, when Geoghan was convicted of assaulting the boy in the swimming pool, that hundreds more victims came forward. Five priests were suspended and many more were named and shamed. The Boston archdiocese was forced to hand over to the DA the names of 87 other priests who had been accused of sexually abusing children. Further investigation uncovered many more. Records showed that, long before the scandal broke, the Boston archdiocese had given more than $17m in hush money to the families of 400 young male victims, in cases where more than 190 priests were implicated. The attorney-general of Massachusetts reported: "The mistreatment of children [within the archdiocese of Boston] was so massive and so prolonged that it borders on the unbelievable. The magnitude of clergy sexual abuse is staggering."

The denouement for Geoghan was horrible and shocking. He was given a 10-year sentence in the maximum-security Souza-Baranowski Correctional Center in Shirley, Massachusetts, which houses 1,000 prisoners in a hermetically sealed, computer-controlled environment overseen by 366 CCTV cameras. Doors in the unit open via a touch-screen computer in the guard-duty station, which was 20ft away from the defrocked priest's cell. Geoghan was there for his own protection. His cell contained a metal bunk, two shelves, a toilet and a locker. Three or four times a week he played cards with inmates. Still in denial, he told them his accusers had come out of the woodwork to make money; he said even if he did touch the boys' buttocks, he didn't warrant 8 to10 years' jail. He was known in prison slang as a "skinner" (a child-abuser)."Bless me father, for I have skinned," he was chided.

Another prisoner was Joseph L Druce, a 37-year-old murderer, drug addict and white supremacist. On Saturday, August 23, 2003, there was one guard on duty. Druce followed Geoghan into his cell after they had had a meal, slipping in behind him before the door automatically closed. Then he murdered him. He used his T-shirt to bind Geoghan's hands, then strangled him with his socks. He used a paperback book, along with Geoghan's nail clippers and toothbrush, to jam the cell door's sliding mechanism, and one of Geoghan's shoes to tighten a tourniquet around his neck. He then jumped on his chest several times, breaking his ribs and puncturing his lungs.

Druce said he had been planning the attack for a month. Taken by guards to a court hearing, where he was charged with murdering Geoghan, he yelled to reporters: "Hell, I'll go through torture for the kids." He shouted at other inmates: "Let's keep the kids safe." In response the prisoners yelled: "Druce. Druce. Druce."

Maryetta Dussourd was appalled by the murder. "How could this happen? He was meant to be in a more secure place. What survivors wanted was justice. Not this."

Geoghan was buried in Holyhood Cemetery in Brookline, Massachusetts. Also buried there were President Kennedy's parents, four Boston mayors, a cardinal and several bishops.

Weeks later there was a surreal turn of events. The Massachusetts Appeals Court "vacated" Geoghan's conviction and ordered his original indictment dismissed. The ruling was customary under Massachusetts law when convicts die in mid-appeal and lawyers seek to have their convictions quashed. It happens in several states. The Massachusetts prosecutors neither opposed nor agreed to the motion from the dead priest's lawyer. Mitchell Garabedian, who had represented more than 100 of Geoghan's victims, demanded that the law be changed: "It's as though Father John Geoghan's sexual abuse, his trial and the jury's decision never happened."

For America's Catholic Church, Geoghan's shocking end has merely closed an early chapter in a nationwide scandal, eroding congregations and finances, and the foundations of its power base. In February 2005 a second Boston priest, Paul R Shanley, was jailed for 12 years for raping a boy 20 years ago. More court cases involving sexual abuse by priests are bound to follow.

There is overwhelming evidence that, even now, the church hasn't faced up to the devils within. Consider this. A Conference of Catholic Bishops report a year ago said that nearly 4,400 priests have abused minors over four decades.

Yet the report claimed there were only 10,667 victims. Just last month they were forced to concede that another 1,000 child victims have been discovered. It is inconceivable that paedophile priests, allowed to offend with little more than a slap on the wrist and rewarded by the sustained protection of the church, offended on average only twice in 40 years.

One man believes that the church has underestimated the number of paedophiles in its ranks. Richard Sipe, a former monk who now lectures at Johns Hopkins University in Maryland, researched 1,500 case studies while investigating celibacy in the priesthood. He concluded that 2% of priests are paedophiles and another 4% are attracted to children. That would mean more than 6,000 of the 109,000 priests active during the past 40 years have been, at the very least, a potential danger to children.

It is becoming clear that the priests identified as paedophiles were not one- or two-time offenders, as church figures suggest, but repeat offenders, their unpunished crimes spanning not weeks or months but decades. If Snipe's figure is to be believed, hundreds, even thousands, are still administering to their flocks.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Official Vatican policy dictated that priest abuse was "an unspeakable crime". Nobody in authority within the church was allowed to speak openly about child molestation by ordained priests. Officials dealing with allegations of child abuse had to take an oath of perpetual silence. The punishment for breaking this rule: excommunication.

Unfucking believable.

Your child gets fucked in the ass and if you say something about it publicly then it's eternal damnation and torture from Satans minions because the cunt did a 3 year course at a Catholic Seminary.

Official fucking policy.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[ELVIS]

Catholicism is Satan's most clever trick...

[Seshmeister]

It was the only trick for the first 1600 years after your saviour.

[ELVIS]

I should have said modern Catholicism...

[academic punk]

"Bend over and receive the faith."

[DrMaddVibe]

Reaping and sowing, not raping and suing!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Catholicism is Satan's most clever trick...

So is Karl Rove, Christian Fundamentalism, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, and Sammy Hagar.:rolleyes:

[Nickdfresh]

I've decided, like my brother has, that if and when I have kids, they will not be raised Catholic as I (sorta') was.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
From the Sunday Times

[b]4,000 paedophile priests identified
80 churches closed down
An archbishop forced to resign
$800m paid in lawsuits
100,000 child victims estimated — and thousands more still at risk



So, where´s god when you need him?

Out to lunch?

On vacation?

Or do little boys deserve this kind of thing?

Fuck religion!

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I should have said modern Catholicism...

They used to be even worse...

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I've decided, like my brother has, that if and when I have kids, they will not be raised Catholic as I (sorta') was.

How will they be raised? As athiests?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
How will they be raised? As athiests?

Secular humanists.;)

[Warham]

So basically with no backbone, right?

:D

[Jano]

Religions suck!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
So basically with no backbone, right?

:D

Or cult connections.;)

[Seshmeister]

Why not raise them as Christians and then tell them it was all a silly story at the same age as you tell them that Santa doesn't exist either...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Why not raise them as Christians and then tell them it was all a silly story at the same age as you tell them that Santa doesn't exist either...

Just out of curiosity, is what you're planning on doing?

[Seshmeister]

I was toying with it...I think a little Sunday School early on might be useful.

Plus it will get them out my hair when I'm lying on a Sunday morning with a hangover...

[ELVIS]

Maybe they will come home and teach you some truth...;)

[Seshmeister]

As long as they leave out a drink for me on Christmas night they can believe in him as long as they want...:)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Warham
So basically with no backbone, right?

:D

This is classic.

Thinking for yourself = No Backbone?

MY definition of "no backbone" would be to surrender your own free will and let others decide what is right and wrong for you.

I KNOW killing is wrong, I dont need a rule.

I KNOW I should treat my fellow man as I would want to be treated

and so forth......


I don't belong to an organized religion, yet have many of my own spiritual beliefs....yet according to YOU that means I have no backbone?

whatever:rolleyes:

[Katydid]

I THOUGHT WE DIDN'T ALLOW RELIGION IN THESE THREADS.

ESPECIALLY THREADS STARTED BY OPEN DEVIL WORSHIPERS WHO LOVE BEASTALITY.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Katydid
I THOUGHT WE DIDN'T ALLOW RELIGION IN THESE THREADS.

ESPECIALLY THREADS STARTED BY OPEN DEVIL WORSHIPERS WHO LOVE BEASTALITY.

Sesh can post whatever he wants to. It's called freedom of speech ;)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Katydid
I THOUGHT WE DIDN'T ALLOW RELIGION IN THESE THREADS.

ESPECIALLY THREADS STARTED BY OPEN DEVIL WORSHIPERS WHO LOVE BEASTALITY.

Now that's fookin' hilarious!

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Catholicism is Satan's most clever trick...

And not Protestantism which was started by a man who altered the Bible in order to prove his doctrine?

[Seshmeister]

LOL!

I'm just a rock 'n' roll rebel
I'll tell you no lies
They say I worship the devil
They must be stupid or blind
I'm just a rock 'n' roll rebel

[Warham]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
This is classic.

Thinking for yourself = No Backbone?

MY definition of "no backbone" would be to surrender your own free will and let others decide what is right and wrong for you.

I KNOW killing is wrong, I dont need a rule.

I KNOW I should treat my fellow man as I would want to be treated

and so forth......


I don't belong to an organized religion, yet have many of my own spiritual beliefs....yet according to YOU that means I have no backbone?

whatever:rolleyes:

No surrendering of free will here, Lounge Lizard.

My opinion of a secularist is to go with whatever is PC at the moment. Therefore, no backbone.

You have spiritual beliefs, yet you attack mine constantly? Sounds like a hypocrite to me.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I don't belong to an organized religion, yet have many of my own spiritual beliefs....


Let's hear some of your spiritual beliefs, please...

That is, if you don't mind sharing...;)

[Warham]

His beliefs are probably something along these lines...

"Live long and prosper."

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
No surrendering of free will here, Lounge Lizard.

My opinion of a secularist is to go with whatever is PC at the moment. Therefore, no backbone.

You have spiritual beliefs, yet you attack mine constantly? Sounds like a hypocrite to me.

Actually I was full of shit. I'll raise them either Episcopalian (Anglican) or Unitarian. But they will have Jeffersonian, Deist, secularist values!

[ELVIS]

They will have no values...

[BigBadBrian]

http://civilwarclipart.com/Clipartgallery/images/smileys/bulldozer3.gif

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
They will have no values...

Fuck you.

I have much more faith in Nick raising well adjusted kids than you.:rolleyes:

THIS is what I'm talking about.

No Values
No Backbone

"Believe as I do or you're shit"

Fuck you E.

Who the FUCK are you to question the "values" of someone you don't even know.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
"Believe as I do or you're shit"



I never said that...

You're a complete idiot and a fool...

Have fun on the highway to hell...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I never said that...

You're a complete idiot and a fool...

Have fun on the highway to hell...

You've said that many times, in many different ways, asswipe.

You can't even stand by your own convictions.

you're a hypocrite and a fraud.

[ELVIS]

Read into whatever you want...:rolleyes:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Read into whatever you want...:rolleyes:

Thank you for the permission.

You are free to do the same.

You judgemental, self-righteous, hypocrite

[ELVIS]

Yeah right...

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I never said that...

You're a complete idiot and a fool...

Have fun on the highway to hell... I hear they have strawberry daiqiris in hell. See you there!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
They will have no values...

You have no values.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I never said that...

You're a complete idiot and a fool...

Have fun on the highway to hell...

Really? What were you saying? A former drug user is going to lecture me about child rearing?

[The Scatologist]

Abstinence makes the church grow fondlers :D

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Really? What were you saying? A former drug user is going to lecture me about child rearing?

If they have a child and you don't, yes.

http://civilwarclipart.com/Clipartgallery/images/smileys/bulldozer3.gif

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
If they have a child and you don't, yes.



Guess he doesn't know when to pull out. Isn't he divorced, and dispensing his holy, judgemental wisdom on the world? H-Y-P-O-C-R-I-T-E!

[WACF]

Elvis I respect your opinion but I do find you to be quite judgmental on faith.

I am Catholic and well aware of the sin's it's leaders have commited.
I do not see how you can hammer the faith when it is only the human beings that are sinfull....

[Warham]

Elvis is hammering Catholicism for it's traditions that were not instituted by the words of Christ, but by sinners who came after the fact, like praying to 'the perpetual Virgin Mary'.

[WACF]

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
And not Protestantism which was started by a man who altered the Bible in order to prove his doctrine?


Then the Lutheran's that altered those....or rather the Protestants that felt Marin Luther's path had gone astray and felt they needed to straighten it.

It all started somewhere.

It is all the same God.

[WACF]

Originally posted by Warham
Elvis is hammering Catholicism for it's traditions that were not instituted by the words of Christ, but by sinners who came after the fact, like praying to 'the perpetual Virgin Mary'.


Fair enough...I thought the Satan's trick comment seemed a little elite.

[Warham]

I'd say Elvis was being ballsy, but I agree somewhat, since I was a Catholic for 22 years, and see where he's coming from on it.

[WACF]

I question my faith and church quite abit...but I am still loyal.

I am curious though...and it may be only for Elvis to answer...but what church does he follow?

[Nitro Express]

Are you still loyal to your Catholic faith for social or family reasons? I was raised Mormon and told my family my honest views. Some in my family were very dissapointed some eventually joined me in leaving.

It's amazing how long a corrupt religion can go on when it becomes part of the family herritage.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by WACF


It is all the same God.

It's all the same shit...:)

[Nitro Express]

Amazing, everyone's shit smells the same.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by WACF


I am curious though...and it may be only for Elvis to answer...but what church does he follow?


I belong to a non-denominational Bible teaching church of Jesus Christ...

Sorry about the harshness of my comments towards Catholicism, but i believe many people are being misled...

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
Are you still loyal to your Catholic faith for social or family reasons? .

What about personal...or is that included in either social or family?

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I belong to a non-denominational Bible teaching church of Jesus Christ...

Sorry about the harshness of my comments towards Catholicism, but i believe many people are being misled...

Just curious, do they say that the Catholic Church does not believe in being saved by Grace?

[bfm]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Or cult connections.;)

or both

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
Are you still loyal to your Catholic faith for social or family reasons? I was raised Mormon and told my family my honest views. Some in my family were very dissapointed some eventually joined me in leaving.

It's amazing how long a corrupt religion can go on when it becomes part of the family herritage.

Mormons are on the highway to hell for sure...

[Satan]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Mormons are on the highway to hell for sure...

There's a lot of onramps on my highway, and they ain't all in Utah :cool:

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Satan
There's a lot of onramps on my highway, and they ain't all in Utah :cool:

Some are in Michigan, others in Phoneix, a gate in Oregon...

[Satan]

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
Some are in Michigan, others in Phoneix, a gate in Oregon...

Oregon is really one of my favorite places. You wouldn't believe how many things are named "Devil" and "Hell" in that state.

[Ally_Kat]

Which is odd when most East Coasters think of the West, we think wilderness, woods, and prettyness -- not Satan. I guess there must have been some pretty miffed wagon trail groups.

[Satan]

Devil's Punchbowl State Park (http://www.paulnoll.com/Oregon/Tourism/Noll-Devils-Punchbowl-SP-choices.html)

Hell's Canyon & the Seven Devils Mountains (http://gorp.away.com/gorp/resource/us_wilderness_area/or_hells.htm)

Sixes River (http://www.o2fish.com/o2fishsixesriver.htm)

HELL Gate (on the Rogue River) (http://www.hellgate.com/Splash/)

Devil Point (http://www.sourcecatalog.com/or/or_devil_point.html)

Devil's Lake (http://www.oregonstateparks.org/park_216.php)

Devil's Garden (http://volcano.und.nodak.edu/vwdocs/volc_images/north_america/devils_garden.html)

What a Most Unholy state! :cool:

[ELVIS]

Hell's canyon is a neat place to camp...


:elvis:

[Satan]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Hell's canyon is a neat place to camp...


:elvis:

You DO realize that you willingly surrendered your soul when you camped there, right?

[ELVIS]

No...

[Seshmeister]

Just quick question.

How many of you were brought up Christian and are now Hindu, Muslim, Morman or Jewish or vice versa for that matter?

I'm guessing none.

So does that mean if ELVIS had been born in Palestine he would now be a suicide bomber?

I'm thinking possibly...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Seshmeister


So does that mean if ELVIS had been born in Palestine he would now be a suicide bomber?

I'm thinking possibly...

Bet on it :cool:


The only difference between him and other terrorists is they cash planes...........


ELVIS only crashed cars ;)

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Just quick question.

How many of you were brought up Christian and are now Hindu, Muslim, Morman or Jewish or vice versa for that matter?

I'm guessing none.

So does that mean if ELVIS had been born in Palestine he would now be a suicide bomber?

I'm thinking possibly...

I gave up the faith in high school. I did a lot of soul searching and a lot of religious study and came back to my faith on my own accord.

I know it's not quite the answer yo uwere looking for, but I was seriously interested in a few religions before I came to the conclusion which one was for me.

[Seshmeister]

Cool we all need a crutch.

My problem isn't with folk like you Alley, you've thought about it and come to your conclusion which I may disagree wiith but good luck to you.

I'm just here trying to make people think about it.

In my experience most people don't.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

Also I would never say shit like this in real life to people about their faiths - I'm far too nice.

I'm the most laid back smiley person you could ever hope to meet in real life.

But what the hell this is the internet, smoke em if you got em...:)

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
I'm just here trying to make people think about it.

In my experience most people don't.

Cheers!

:gulp:

And I completely agree with you about that. I wish more people would and I wish more people would pay closer attention to other religions.

[FORD]

I was brought up in a right wing Baptist church where many of the people worshipped Reagan more than they did Jesus Christ. I think it's obvious that I didn't accept their teachings very well.

My faith in Jesus Christ isn't based on any organized religion at all, but on His teachings themselves.

That doesn't exclude me from understanding other religious & spiritual traditions. I've been involved in Native American ceremonies for several years. I don't see any conflict between the two. There is only one Creator, right?

Native Americans have a ceremony commonly called "vision quest" where you go off into the wilderness, often up on top of a hill or mountain, fasting, and praying to the Creator for a vision.

The Bible tells us that Jesus Christ did exactly this for 40 days and nights. If it's good enough for JC, it's good enough for me.

Bottom line is that I feel more of a connection with God when I'm in surroundings that He created, like the mountains or the beach. I've had a number of intense spiritual experiences in these natural settings. I have never had such experiences sitting in a sterile building with a bunch of Republican hypocrites singing boring songs.

If church works for you, or praying 5 times a day to Mecca, or if you can live with never eating a cheeseburger, or whatever, then more power to you. I believe at the end of the road that God will be far less concerned with what name you called Him then with how you kept the teachings and commandments that are the foundation of your chosen path.

[ELVIS]

Nice post FORD...

Just remember...

Jesus quoted old testament scripture time after time...

If it was good enough for him, it's good enough for you...;)

[WACF]

Good post Ford.

In the end it is what you are and how you treat people.

I know what you are getting at Sesh and I take not offence...I have left and come back many times to my faith.
You need to question your faith in order to understand it.

It made me who I am today and it all ain't bad.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
My faith in Jesus Christ isn't based on any organized religion at all, but on His teachings themselves.



Same here, you heathens...:)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by FORD


I believe at the end of the road that God will be far less concerned with what name you called Him then with how you kept the teachings and commandments that are the foundation of your chosen path.



Exactly what I've been saying to ELVIS for months, meanwhile he tells me I'm going straight to hell for not following AS HE follows:rolleyes:

God doesn't need PR agents, fundraisers, or judges pro tem...........

:cool:

[ELVIS]

I didn't say you were going straight to hell, although you very well may be...

I said the road to hell is paved with good intentions...


BTW, Jesus IS the only way...;)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS


BTW, Jesus IS the only way...;)

Bullshit.


Prove it.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I


BTW, Jesus IS the only way...;)

You also claim Ray Luzier sucks because you heard some mixing board boots.

Forgive me if I think your judgement could use some fine tuning;)

[ELVIS]

I like Ray...

He's awesome with the Sun Demons, and on DLR Band...

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Nice post FORD...

Just remember...

Jesus quoted old testament scripture time after time...

If it was good enough for him, it's good enough for you...;)

Jesus was a Jewish man playing to a Jewish crowd. What else would He have quoted?

Remember when Jesus was about to ascend to Heaven, and He said He was going to visit "other sheep which are not of this fold"?

The Bible doesn't explain that comment fully, but the obvious interpretation is that Jesus was going to visit other people in some location other than Israel. It could have been on the American continents, as the Book of Mormon suggests, or it could have been another planet entirely. So if Jesus went to another civilization where the Jewish Old Testament scriptures were completely unknown, why would He quote those scriptures at all? They wouldn't mean anything to a culture completely unfamiliar with them.

So then what would Jesus have done? Maybe he would have rephrased his teachings in a way that fit the culture and the history of those people?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I like Ray...

He's awesome with the Sun Demons, and on DLR Band...

flip-flopper:D

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Bullshit.


Prove it.

I've been trying to prove it...


Warham, Cathedral, Skittles, BS1, WACF, and even FORD know and believe Jesus to be the way...

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
it could have been another planet entirely.

You're on another planet entirely...:D

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS


and even FORD



chortle, chortle

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by FORD


I believe at the end of the road that God will be far less concerned with what name you called Him then with how you kept the teachings and commandments that are the foundation of your chosen path.

So much for ELVIS' "even FORD" theory:rolleyes:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
Jesus was a Jewish man playing to a Jewish crowd. What else would He have quoted?



He referred to it as the word of God!

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
He referred to it as the word of God!

Were you there......?

or are you relying on intel........

[LoungeMachine]

Well I'm off to break 3 or 4 commandments......

I'll toss a few in your honor, E.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by FORD

Remember when Jesus was about to ascend to Heaven, and He said He was going to visit "other sheep which are not of this fold"?



I don't have that in my version. What version of the Bible are you using?

[ELVIS]

What one are you using ??

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by ELVIS
What one are you using ??

I have a New American Bible and the New International Version

[ELVIS]

I use NIV, but I compare it to King James, and I also use the Message Bible...

[Ally_Kat]

My father has a King James upstairs in his dresser, but it's about the fall apart. It's over 50 yrs old.

My New American Bible is in pieces cuz I used it to death in elementary school. At least the Lutherans had some sense giving us a Bible with a hard cover.

I need to get a new New American one.

[Warham]

Originally posted by FORD
Jesus was a Jewish man playing to a Jewish crowd. What else would He have quoted?

Remember when Jesus was about to ascend to Heaven, and He said He was going to visit "other sheep which are not of this fold"?

The Bible doesn't explain that comment fully, but the obvious interpretation is that Jesus was going to visit other people in some location other than Israel. It could have been on the American continents, as the Book of Mormon suggests, or it could have been another planet entirely. So if Jesus went to another civilization where the Jewish Old Testament scriptures were completely unknown, why would He quote those scriptures at all? They wouldn't mean anything to a culture completely unfamiliar with them.

So then what would Jesus have done? Maybe he would have rephrased his teachings in a way that fit the culture and the history of those people?

Jesus was referring to Gentiles when he spoke of sheep that are not of the this fold.

His message wasn't just to the Jews, but to all of humanity.

Jesus wasn't about to ascend to heaven in John 10:16. He was speaking a parable at the time. He was never talking about physically visiting any of these other sheep.

Jesus quote the Old Testament to the Jews because it's God's Word.

John 10:1-18

1 “Most certainly, I tell you, one who doesn’t enter by the door into the sheep fold, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But one who enters in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name, and leads them out. 4 Whenever he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. 5 They will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him; for they don’t know the voice of strangers.” 6 Jesus spoke this parable to them, but they didn’t understand what he was telling them.

7 Jesus therefore said to them again, “Most certainly, I tell you, I am the sheep’s door. 8A ll who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep didn’t listen to them. 9 I am the door. If anyone enters in by me, he will be saved, and will go in and go out, and will find pasture. 10 The thief only comes to steal, kill, and destroy. I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. 11I am the good shepherd.a The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12 He who is a hired hand, and not a shepherd, who doesn’t own the sheep, sees the wolf coming, leaves the sheep, and flees. The wolf snatches the sheep, and scatters them. 13 The hired hand flees because he is a hired hand, and doesn’t care for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own, and I’m known by my own; 15 even as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold.b I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice. They will become one flock with one shepherd. 17 Therefore the Father loves me, because I lay down my life,c that I may take it again. 18 No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down by myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. I received this commandment from my Father.”

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by ELVIS
What one are you using ??

I like the NIV myself. :)

[Cathedral]

Today would be an outstanding day for Jesus to return...and if not today, tomorrow, or any day after that as long as it is soon.

[kentuckyklira]

Cheap Bibles = excellent toilet paper

[FORD]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
Cheap Bibles = excellent toilet paper

Nah, here's a better choice.....
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040206/capt.sge.hws20.060204115100.photo00.default-384x261.jpg

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by FORD
Nah, here's a better choice.....
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/afp/20040206/capt.sge.hws20.060204115100.photo00.default-384x261.jpg Good call!:D

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Katydid
I THOUGHT WE DIDN'T ALLOW RELIGION IN THESE THREADS.

ESPECIALLY THREADS STARTED BY OPEN DEVIL WORSHIPERS WHO LOVE BEASTALITY.

THAT IS CORRECT YOU FUCKING WHORE, THAT IS WHY ALL OF YOUR RELIGIOUS THREADS HAVE BEEN DELETED!

[Nitro Express]

I'm agnostic. I'm comfortable just not knowing. I can't deny the existance of a God and really don't want to, so I was never comfortable being an athiest.

For me organized religion is just another form of politics.

Being raised Mormon I saw many in the faith lived a double standard. The church has unusually high standards that are hard to keep and the reality is most members fudge here and there and become excellent liars.

Many only stay in the church because it's good for business or to not be cut off from the family fortune.

I attended BYU my freshman year and got more ass than a toilet seat. Kids were fucking all over the place but come Sunday, the spiritual charade was masturfully played. Funny, when I transfered up to the University of Washington in Seattle I realized it was easier to get a piece of fine ass at BYU than it was at UW. No shit.

But remember when Dave wrote about the groupies in Salt Lake City in his book? No shit, he was fucking right! You deffinately can press some pussy in Utah! I guess we have religion to make sin that much funner! Heh Heh

[Warham]

Even the Beach Boys did a number about Salt Lake City.

Must have been a prime spot.

[FORD]

I dated a Mormon chick for a little while, but couldn't get past the Holy Underwear :( Which is why I stopped seeing her. She had a friend who could have been the LDS equivalent of Jenny McCarthy. If I had converted, I probably could have had both of em. Just can't hang with a church that tells you caffeine is evil though. Not to mention the occasional mug of Stout :gulp:

[ELVIS]

Mormonism is another false teaching...

[FORD]

Right wing dominionism is also a false teaching.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Mormonism is another false teaching...

Yes, they're all evil and hellbound....:rolleyes:

sanctimonious prick

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Mormonism is another false teaching...

Umm...you mean MORONism.
Yeah, it is a false teaching, just like Mary being a virgin, Jesus rising on the third day (he was only one of many to accomplish this), etc.

It is all a bunch of fairy tale bullshit.

[Nitro Express]

Non of the Mormon girls I dated had the funny holy underwear and may I say that is some of the ugliest, horrid stuff you can put on a woman. Anyways, they hadn't been through the temple cerimony yet and aren't required to wear the ugly undies. No, most of the Mormon girls I got to peel their underwear off had panties and even G-Strings. Lot's of hypocracy and gameplaying. It's fun for two semesters but I had to get the hell out of Dodge. I missed the underground rebellion and the trips to Las Vegas when I was at UW. Sometimes it's almost worth being in a strict religion because breaking all the rules is so much damn fun.

[Hardrock69]

LMAO! That is why Catholic Gurls are so rabid in the sack.....all that repression.....

Reminds me of Joe's Garage by Frank Zappa....

[MichaelAnthony]

Only a Jew would post this diatribe. By the way, there is more homosexual and child molestation activity in our school system and boy scout organization than in the Catholic Church. It's because Jews run the media and they want to destroy Christianity and put it under a microscope. Jews run the education system in America, so the powers that be will do whatever they can to avoid the truth about child molestation in our school system. It's the truth.

Mikey doesn't like it.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by MichaelAnthony
Only a Jew would post this diatribe. By the way, there is more homosexual and child molestation activity in our school system and boy scout organization than in the Catholic Church. It's because Jews run the media and they want to destroy Christianity and put it under a microscope. Jews run the education system in America, so the powers that be will do whatever they can to avoid the truth about child molestation in our school system. It's the truth.

Mikey doesn't like it.

Mikey is a bigot.

http://www.ushmm.org/lcmedia/photo/wlc/image/08/08024.jpg

[FORD]

Do you know the way to San Jose, Mr. Anti-Semite??

[FORD]

Originally posted by Adolf Anthony
Only a Nazi skinhead cocksuker would post this diatribe. By the way, there is more homosexual and child molestation activity in my bedroom in SAN JOSE CALIFORNIA than in the Catholic Church. It's because corporations run the media and they want to destroy Christianity and put it under a microscope. Fascists run the education system in America, so the powers that be will do whatever they can to avoid the truth about child molestation in my bedroom. It's the truth.

Mikey doesn't like it.

[steve]

I was raised Catholic.
Secular humanist/agnostic/atheist now;)

The main crux of the Catholic Church is Cronyism. Corrupt Vatican politicians picking other corrupt Vatican cronies for jobs.
There is no democracy within the political structure.
The parishoners themselves are so middle of the road it's not funny...in America at least.

Most Catholics in America use condoms. Most have no problem with birth control, etc...nowadays. Some are even OK w/ abortion! The American MEMBERS are FAR from extremists.

But you've got the guys who run the organization...and they have some FUCKED UP really really WEIRD ideas about sex. And their distorted views about sex drive everything from these affairs w/ young boys to telling third world folks that condoms are immoral...which has FUCKED UP a whole generation of young African Catholics who really really listen to Catholic doctrine.

The problem is, Catholic parishoners are so apothetic that even in the face of thousands of kids getting raped, they do nothing to reclaim their church.

[Seshmeister]

Good to see you back Steve!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by MichaelAnthony
Only a Jew would post this diatribe. By the way, there is more homosexual and child molestation activity in our school system and boy scout organization than in the Catholic Church. It's because Jews run the media and they want to destroy Christianity and put it under a microscope. Jews run the education system in America, so the powers that be will do whatever they can to avoid the truth about child molestation in our school system. It's the truth.

Mikey doesn't like it.

Did you love the Priest or was it purely (homo)sexual?



IP check please.

San Jose eh?

[Seshmeister]

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-money3dec03,0,5843035.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Scandal could prompt church to sell property
With $4 billion in real estate and more priest abuse payouts looming, who controls parish holdings is a key issue.
By Paul Pringle and Ted Rohrlich, Times Staff Writers
December 3, 2006


Hit with an initial $40-million bill for its share of 45 clergy sexual abuse settlements announced Friday, the Archdiocese of Los Angeles warned that it will have to make cutbacks. And the 485 remaining molestation lawsuits could cost hundreds of millions more.

The payouts will certainly hurt, but the archdiocese has vast wealth, most of it in land. A Times analysis has found that the archdiocese is the recorded owner of one of the biggest real estate portfolios in Southern California — at least 1,600 properties with an estimated value of about $4 billion.

What the nation's most-populous Catholic jurisdiction might be willing to sell, however, is likely to feed an ongoing debate within the church over who controls parish property — the prelates governing the institution or the parishioners.

Most of the archdiocese's property is devoted to religious purposes, such as churches and schools. But there are also oil wells, farm parcels, commercial parking lots, a fashion district building and the land under an Alhambra car dealership.


http://www.latimes.com/media/graphic/2006-12/26692663.gif

But few doubt that archdiocesan programs will suffer in the end. Many note that, when confronted with a $4.3-million budget shortfall in 2002, the archdiocese closed ministries for students, the disabled, minorities, and gays and lesbians.

Tom Honore, a Los Angeles parishioner who sits on the national board of Call to Action, which pushes for reforms in the church, said the archdiocese should sell nonessential property to settle the claims. "Before schools, parking lots should go," he said. "I am very concerned. Families and communities are built around parishes."

Hennigan said schools and churches are "not vulnerable" to closure and sale, but he hedged a bit. "You can never say never on anything," he said.

The archdiocese will not declare bankruptcy to protect its assets from the litigants, Hennigan said. Four other dioceses have taken that step because of molestation lawsuits.

Most of the properties have been in the archdiocese's hands for many years, and county assessments of their value are out of date. The Times broadly estimated their current worth with a formula that applied regional increases in median home prices to archdiocesan properties.

Land records and most experts consulted by the newspaper suggested that, at least since the early 1990s, commercial, industrial and church properties have increased in value at a similar rate to that for single-family homes, although some studies suggest that commercial and industrial prices have risen at a lower rate.

Experts in church sales also cautioned that, even in the area's vibrant used-church market, Catholic churches might sell for less because of their design.

Some more marketable
If recent settlements are a guide, the archdiocese and its insurers could have to pay $500 million or more to dispense with the rest of the molestation suits. That would be far and away the costliest resolution in the U.S. Catholic Church's marathon run of sex scandals.

The archdiocese says it expects insurers to pay almost all of the remaining settlements, but the liability companies insist that the church should bear most of the burden.

At the same time, Cardinal Roger M. Mahony has staked out a position on internal ownership rules that seeks to restrict the plaintiffs' access to billions in church and school property. He has asserted that churches and schools belong to individual parishes and that the archdiocese doesn't have the authority to liquidate parish property to settle lawsuits.

Mahony's stance appears rife with possible church-state conflicts, pitting canon against civil law. Plaintiffs say he is merely trying to avoid fairly compensating abuse victims.

The finances of the archdiocese are difficult to decipher, in part because it does not include the assets of parishes and other church organizations in its public balance sheets. On its website, the archdiocese reported gross assets in the last fiscal year of just $510 million, all of it in property and funds controlled by the central administration.

Looking at property records

A Times examination of property records and other documents suggests that about $175 million of the archdiocese's real estate portfolio is in properties not classified by the tax assessor as used for religious purposes or cemeteries — and thus more likely to be available for settlements.

In addition, the archdiocese has investment funds of about $660 million, although it says most of that money belongs to affiliated organizations and parishes, according to the church's newspaper, the Tidings.

Mahony said the archdiocese set aside $40 million last year toward Friday's settlements. He has not said how the church would pay for its share of settlements in the remaining lawsuits.

"Our goal is to have no impact to our parishes or ministries that would imperil our ministry," the cardinal said. "There are ways to combine services, maybe to accomplish the goals with fewer personnel, down the road."

But many parishioners fear that the settlements will cut into the archdiocese's network of churches, schools and ministries, which serve 4.3 million people in Los Angeles, Ventura and Santa Barbara counties.

The archdiocese's contention that its insurers are obligated to pay for the rest of the claims has been disputed by liability companies, which contend that California law renders coverage void because church superiors had reason to expect that the abuse would occur. The two sides have also differed on the dollar and time limits of the coverage.

Church and legal experts predict a compromise.

In 2004, the Diocese of Orange split the cost of a $100-million settlement with its insurers. The diocese paid the $50 million with a bank loan and by tapping investments.

The archdiocese's attorney, J. Michael Hennigan, said his client could not begin to pay half of a bill that could exceed $500 million without "great pain."

He said the archdiocese is weighing which nonreligious property it could sell and will explore bank loans. If more cash is needed, Hennigan and others said, a fundraising appeal might be launched.

[bueno bob]

Wake me up when Peter II takes the stage...

:)

[FORD]

Originally posted by bueno bob
Wake me up when Peter II takes the stage...

:)

Probably won't be much longer. Nobody expects Ratzinger to be a long termer.

[Golden AWe]

This is a strange thread. Some of the people who seem to be amongst the smartest on this site are now preaching of Jesus here.

What the HELL made you decide whether it's ok for a person to decide for him-/herself? Is it really wrong to explore and search a bit? Then, a basic question, how about the rest of the religions, going to burn as well, just because they do not believe in Jesus?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
Then, a basic question, how about the rest of the religions, going to burn as well, just because they do not believe in Jesus?

This is definitely an area where I break with so-called "organized religion". I refuse to believe, for example, that Pat Robertson, who shits all over the teachings of Christ daily and makes money doing so, is going to Heaven, yet Ghandi is burning in Hell for the "sin" of merely being a Hindu because he was born in India.

Ghandi himself actually said "I like your Christ, but I can't say the same about some of your Christians"

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by FORD
This is definitely an area where I break with so-called "organized religion". I refuse to believe, for example, that Pat Robertson, who shits all over the teachings of Christ daily and makes money doing so, is going to Heaven, yet Ghandi is burning in Hell for the "sin" of merely being a Hindu because he was born in India.

Ghandi himself actually said "I like your Christ, but I can't say the same about some of your Christians"

Do you believe that we really have a soul, or isn't it just a mix of chemical ingredients and basic cells that have proceeded and evolved through the years? Do animals have a soul? Why, or why not?

EDIT: HAHAHAHA!!!

I have thousands of songs on my iTunes and the random playlist shuffles on to "HELL'S BELLS" just as we speak!!!

HAHAHAHAHAH

I'm about to burn fer shure...

[Nitro Express]

I look at religion across the board. I like the golen rule Jesus taught.

The thing is, who knows if Jesus even really taught that or if he even existed because the gosphels in the New Testiment were written much later. Someone could have made up the whole thing or based it on a real person but superheroed the account.

Does that matter? It's the idea that counts isn't it. So I don't believe any organized religion is going to do anything special for you membership wise. It's how you apply ethical teachings in your life.

[WARF]

I'm gonna break this down from what I've gathered.

God = Father

Jesus = Son

Anyone who accepts Jesus as god, by the mouth and heart will be saved.... (Catholics, Born Again Christians, Lutherians etc etc)

When you accept this god gives you a spirit.

When you recieve this spirit, you are now one of GOD'S CHILDREN.

So if Jesus is the son of god... and those who believe are the children of god... doesn't that make Jesus our brother?

So just like Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins... he gives us the power of prayer to forgive others!

So what does that mean?

I think us Christians have the power to forgive others into heaven!

But then again... we are just the jury in god's court.

God is the final judge,

[ELVIS]

Catholicism vs Christianity

Comparison of Beliefs



Jesus the Savior:
Titus 3:5
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

RCC teaches that “by His death and resurrection, Jesus Christ has ‘opened’ heaven to us” (1026). Each person attains his own salvation by grace and by the Holy Spirit, good works (1477).



Jesus the Redeemer:
1 Peter 1:17-19
And if you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each man’s work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay upon earth; knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers, but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

RCC teaches that Mary is the sinless co- Redeemer. “Without a single sin to restrain her, she gave herself entirely to the person and work of her son; she did so in order to serve the mystery of redemption with Him…being obedient she became the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race" (494).

Jesus the Redeemer: Jesus our Advocate and only Mediator:
1 Timothy 2:5
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 John 2:1
My little children, I am writing these things to you that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

RCC teaches that Mary “did not lay aside [her] saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.” She “is ...Advocate… and Mediatrix” (969).

Jesus, Head of the Church:
Ephesians 1:22-23
And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

RCC teaches that the Pope, “by reason of his office as Vicar of Christ, and as pastor of the entire Church has Full, supreme and universal power over the whole Church, a power which he can always exercise un-hindered” (882). He exercises infallibility when “he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals” (891).

Jesus the soon-coming King:
Acts 1:11
and they also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way as you have watched Him go into heaven.”

RCC denies this by teaching that Jesus returns daily to the altars of Catholic churches to be worshipped: “The body and blood…soul and divinity of our Lord Jesus Christ…is truly, really and substantially contained" in the Eucharist (1374-1378)

Christ's Work
Jesus is the propitiation for our sin
1 John 2:2
and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
1 John 4:10
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

RCC teaches that sins are expiated (forgiven) in purgatory through “a cleansing fire” and that we “must strive to accept this temporal punishment of sin as a grace" (1030, 31; 1472-75)

Jesus finished the work of redemption
Hebrews 10:14
For by one offering He has perfected for all time those who are sanctified.
Hebrews 7:27-28
who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself. For the Law appoints men as high priests who are weak, but the word of the oath, which came after the Law, appoints a Son, made perfect forever.

RCC denies it is finished. “The sacrifice of Christ and the sacrifice of the Eucharist are one single sacrifice…the same Christ who offered Himself once in bloody manner on the altar of the cross is contained and offered in an unbloody manner" (1367). “Every time this mystery is celebrated the work of our redemption is carried on" (1405). The sacrifice is “offered in reparation for the sins of the living and the dead" (1414)

His life, death, and resurrection provide the only way to be saved
Acts 4:12
“And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men, by which we must be saved.”

RCC denies this by claiming the Catholic Church “is necessary for salvation" (846) and claiming “the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims" (841).

His shed blood is the only remission for sins
Hebrews 9:22
And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
Hebrews 10:18
Now where there is forgiveness of these things, there is no longer any offering for sin.

RCC teaches “an indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose Guilt has already been forgiven, which…may be applied to the living or the dead" (1471).

Jesus cleanses us from sin
Hebrews 1:3
And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;
Colossians 1:22
yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—

RCC teaches that “all who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified…undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven" (1030).

Doctrine of Salvation
Salvation is proclaimed in the Gospel
Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
1 Corinthians 15:1-4
Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, and that He was buried, and that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Galatians 1:9
As we have said before, so I say again now, if any man is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed.

RCC preaches a different gospel by demanding additional requirements for salvation, including: the Sacraments (1129), meritorious masses (1405), church membership (846), purgatory (1030), indulgences (1498), and baptism (1256).

Salvation is of God, not man
Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation— having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,
John 1:13
who were born not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

RCC teaches “Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration ... without which no one can enter the Kingdom of God" (1213, 1215)

Salvation is through faith, not works
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, that no one should boast.
Psalms 49:7-8
No man can by any means redeem his brother, or give to God a ransom for him— For the redemption of his soul is costly, and he should cease trying forever—

RCC teaches salvation through faith plus works. People can obtain their own salvation and at the same time cooperate in saving their brothers through good works and indulgences (1477, 1479).

Salvation is by grace, not merit
Romans 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Romans 11:6
But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

RCC denies justifying grace is undeserved: “We can merit for ourselves and for others all the graces needed to attain eternal life” (2027)

Salvation rejected is Hell
2 Thessalonians 1:8-9
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. And these will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,

RCC teaches that “Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer…eternal fire" (1035)



Hmmm...

Catholicism is not Christianity...


:elvis:

[WARF]

ELVIS your gonna drive yourself insane doing all this research!

Most catholics are saved and they don't even know it.

It's not a question of what religion your associated with...

It's about whether or not you accept Jesus into your life!

[WARF]

And you can't be saved from just acknowleding Jesus as god.
Satan knows Jesus is god too.... and Satan's not going into heaven.
I was agnostic most of my life.
I originally was raised catholic... but I found church very boring.
As time rolled by little by little... I was gettin' pulled more and more into a LIE in which I believed to be reality.
I used to fucking hate GOD as a matter of fact.
I thought all Christians were arrogant and hypocrites.
Just as I have heard some say here.
I almost died THREE times.
And when I say THREE... I mean exactly three times.
From these near death experiences... I can tell you I believe!
Cuz I have seen god with my own eyes.
So I really don't fucking care what other people think...
I wanted proof he existed and I got my wish...
How I drove 100 mph into a wall and lived is beyond me...
But I am still here...lol
I went from the biggest skeptic in the world to instant believer.
Sounds fucking crazy... but it is true.

[ELVIS]

Dude, the fact that the Catholic church has certain "requirements" for salvation beyond what the Bible says, and that People can obtain their own salvation, and also save their brothers through good works and indulgences is not Christianity...

It makes believing in your heart and confessing with your mouth that Jesus Christ is lord, null and void...

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Ephesians 2:8)

WARF, read what I posted...

If you know anything about Catholicism, you will recognize that what I posted is true...

And you cannot be saved and not know it!!

C'mon brother, I think maybe you have alot of Catholics in your family, and maybe some friends and are afraid to offend them...

The best thing you can do for them is shed some light onto their path...


:elvis:

[Seshmeister]

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g277/cushti_monkey/dumb-and-dumber-001.jpg

[ELVIS]

Jesus said to them,

"If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."

John 8:42-47

[Seshmeister]

No.

Someone betwwen 60 and 110 years later in a book now called the gospel of John wrote that Jesus said that.

[WARF]

Originally posted by ELVIS

If you know anything about Catholicism, you will recognize that what I posted is true...

And you cannot be saved and not know it!!

C'mon brother, I think maybe you have alot of Catholics in your family, and maybe some friends and are afraid to offend them...

The best thing you can do for them is shed some light onto their path...


:elvis:

That's bullshit, ELVIS and you know it.

Anyone who accepts Jesus into their heart, and confesses it by mouth will go into heaven... plain and simple...

The main thing that pisses me off about organized religion is that some people have the arrogant hollier than thou attitude!

How are you supposed to get your message across by putting people down, or thinking you're better than them?

Point out one part of the bible that says Catholics won't go to heaven?

And I'll show a hundred places where it states, "Through Jesus you will be saved."

[Seshmeister]

And I'll show you where it states that non believers and their children should be burnt to death.

"Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." (Deuteronomy 13:13-19 NLT)

[WARF]

Why do you believe that sesh, if the bible has been altered or is simply a myth?

The fact is simple... Those who aren't for god, are against him...

Satan wants us to believe in the LIE.

It may sound completely insane...

But even if you pray to god... to make you believe...

He promises he will come in...

It's kinda hard to explain... but it's supernatural...

And you'll never understand it until you accept it.

[WARF]

Forget about Katydid... forget about everyone on TV...
Who says... PRAISE JEEEEEEEEEEE-ZUS!
I would change the channel from listening to those two words...
And as well as the "ugly" lookin' Christian hairdo...
You know... The ELVIS PRESLEY haircut... lol
Just believe... and if you can't... pray to believe..
He will come in.

I know it sounds like some Low Budget Horror film.
But it's true... I thought I was fucking insane at first.
There is also a huge misconception about christianity.
People think we sit around and pray all day... and call people sinners...
But I go out to bars and drink... and I listen to classic Van Halen...
I'm not perfect... I fuck up from time to time...
So what makes it so hard being a Christian?
What makes me different than anyone else at this message board?

[WARF]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
No.

Someone betwwen 60 and 110 years later in a book now called the gospel of John wrote that Jesus said that.

Your asking alot of questions sesh.
Atleast your interested in the subject.
But my question is this...
If I promised you that god and jesus is real...
And even though you don't understand everything..
If you pray to him to make you understand...
And you ask him into your heart...
He promises he will come in...

What if I promised you... that your life would change instantly?
Would you take that chance?
You already believe that you become "ziltch" after you die.
I promise you... as Jesus promised...
And because I speak through him...
That if you accept him into your heart... and ask him for the answers sincerely... that your life will change instantly...
That I promise you.
I'm not lying to you.
This isn't a joke... this isn't a troll... (like when we trolled fat women in 2001)
I believe in the truth... therefore I speak the truth.

[WARF]

Ted Turner once said long ago...

" Jesus Christ is for weak minded people."

You know what...
he's 100% right...

We are all weak without Jesus!

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by WARF
Why do you believe that sesh, if the bible has been altered or is simply a myth?

The fact is simple... Those who aren't for god, are against him...

Satan wants us to believe in the LIE.

It may sound completely insane...

But even if you pray to god... to make you believe...

He promises he will come in...

It's kinda hard to explain... but it's supernatural...

And you'll never understand it until you accept it.

It's a myth that has been altered.

There is no supernatural, that's effectively what the word means, something that does not exist.

If you want to pretend or believe something that is logically and factually false as a coping mechanism then that's up to you.

I wouldn't look to the writings of superstitious bronze age peasants to fix my car or tell me what the weather is going to be like tomorrow so I certainly wouldn't look to them to tell me how the universe works or what morality I should follow to lead an enjoyable, productive worthwhile life.

Particularly the writings of the bible which are ludicrous and almost bereft of any decent lessons about life.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by WARF
Ted Turner once said long ago...

" Jesus Christ is for weak minded people."

You know what...
he's 100% right...

We are all weak without Jesus!

No, you need Jesus because you are weak which is a different thing entirely.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by WARF
Your asking alot of questions sesh.


The problem is you are not.

You need to step outside the bubble and look back in.

[WARF]

So you're happy knowing that you will be fertilizer when you die?

I have given you the alternative answer.

Why would I lie to you?
If I didn't care... I would walk away.
But I do care... and I promise you if you pray to him...
And ask him to make a believer of you...
And that you accept him as god...
Even though it all sounds like fairy tale bullshit...
He will come in...

But you can't even do that, can you?
What do you have to lose?
You believe that you will die as nothing!

[WARF]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
The problem is you are not.

You need to step outside the bubble and look back in.

I'm not stepping outside the bubble, I've already been there.

I am bringing you into the bubble.

If your theory on life is correct.. and we just plain fucking die.

Then what do you have to lose.

I tell you truth... and you don't listen.

I have told you the answer, and you still deny it.

I was an atheist, and did not believe just like you.

I am proof that Jesus is alive and real.
Here is your proof.

[WARF]

be right back...
I'm gonna go light up a joint...

(The bible says enjoy the fruits of this earth!)
uh u hu hu hu hu hu h

It's my day off... fuck it...
Where's Full Bug at?

[WARF]

Come On, Seshmeister... pretend you are Elton John...
And join my "circle of life" lmao
That was very gay!
Believe in Jesus sesh...
You big stubborn headed scottish dildo you!!!

Put down your sheppard pie... and haggish...
AND BELIEVE!!!!

[Katydid]

Act of Contrition

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended you. I detest all my sins because of your just punishments. But most of all because they offend you, my God, who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of your grace to sin no more and to avoid the near occaasions of sin. Amen.


Renew Prayer

Gracious God and Father, we are your people embraced by your love. We thank you for your presence with us throughout all time. Create us anew through Jesus Christ, your Son. Liberate us from all that keeps us from you. Send your Holy Spirit, enabling us to recreate our world and restore justice. Heal us from every form of sin and violence. transform us to live your Word more profoundly. Reconcile us so enemies becoem friends. Awaken us to the sacred; nuture our relationships. Enliven our parishes; reunite our families. Fill us with joy to celebrate the fullness of life. Empower us to be a community of love growing in your likeness by the grace of Christ our Lord. Amen.

1st. Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians

Brothers and sisters; No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; there are different forms of service but the same Lord; there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.

As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.


Veni, Sancte Spiritus

Come, Holy Spirit, come!
And from your celestial home
Shed a ray of light divine!

Come Father of the poor!
Come, source of all our store!
Come, within our bosoms shine.
You, of comforters the best;
You, the soul's most welcome guest;
Sweet refreshment here below
In our labor, rest most sweet;
Grateful coolness inthe heat;
Solace int he midst of woe.

O most blessed Light divine,
Shine within these hearts of yours,
And our inmost being fill!

Where you are not, we have
naught,
Nothing good in deed or thought,
Nothing free from taint of ill.
Heal our wounds, our strength renew;
On our dryness pour your dew;
Wash the stains of guilt away:
Bend the stubborn heart and will;
Melt the frozen, warm the chill;
Guide the speps that go astray.

On the faithful, we adore
And confess you, evermore
In your sevenfold gift descend;
Give them virtue's sure reward;
Give them your salvation, Lord;
Give them joys that never end.

Amen
Alleluia.


Come, Holy SPirit, fill the hearts of your faithful
and kindle in them the fire of your love.

Lord send out your spirit and renew the face of the earth.

Lord's Prayer

Our Father who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name;
Thy kingdom come;
thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those
Who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power,
and the Glory forever.

AMEN

SIGNING OF THE SENSES:

Priest:
l. Receive the cross on your forehead. It is Christ himself who now strengthens you with this sign of his love. Learn to know and follow him.

2. Receive the sign of the cross on your eyes, that you may hear the voice of the Lord.

3. Receive the sign of the cross on your eyes, that you may see the glory of God.

4. Receive the sign of the cross on your lips, that you may respond to the word of God.

5. Receive the sign of the cross over your heart, that Christ may dwell there by faith, the gentle yoke of Christ.

6. Receive the sign of the cross on your shoulders that you may bear the gentle yoke of Christ.

BLESSING: Priest

7. I sign you witht he sign of eternla life in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Amen, and Amen.

Those who seek your face, Lord, with a pure heart shall stand in your holy place.

Psalm 26 (Scrutinies)
l. Examine mee, God, test my motives.
My thoughts and desires you can see.
Your love, ever constant is my guide;
O lead me in your truth.

2. My hands I have washed in my innocence.
I worship your name at your altar.
A hymn of thanksgiving I will sing
to tell your wondrous deeds.

3. O God how I love where you live,
the place where you dwell
in your glory.
O spare me from evil and the fate
of those who sin against you.

4. I walk on the path of perfection.
Redeem me and show me your mercy.
O God, from all danger keep me safe.
I bless you with your people,

Psalm 32 (Scrutineies)

1. O happy are those you forgive,
the people whose sin'you have pardoned,
O happy the guiltless for their hearts
are free from all deceit.

2. O God when I grieved at my guilt
my days were exhausted with crying;
your hands was upon me night and day,
my strength drained away.

3. But then I concessed all my sins,
I did not conceal my wrongdoings.
To you I confessed them
and in love
You have forgiven me.

4. God, you are the place where I hide.
When I am in trouble you save me.
Aloud I will sing of your salvation.
God, protect my soul.

(Writings of King David)

[Sarge's Little Helper]

Act of Contrition

O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended you. I detest all my sins because of your just punishments. But most of all because they offend you, my God, who are all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of your grace to sin no more and to avoid the near occaasions of sin. Amen.


Renew Prayer

Gracious God and Father, we are your people embraced by your love. We thank you for your presence with us throughout all time. Create us anew through Jesus Christ, your Son. Liberate us from all that keeps us from you. Send your Holy Spirit, enabling us to recreate our world and restore justice. Heal us from every form of sin and violence. transform us to live your Word more profoundly. Reconcile us so enemies becoem friends. Awaken us to the sacred; nuture our relationships. Enliven our parishes; reunite our families. Fill us with joy to celebrate the fullness of life. Empower us to be a community of love growing in your likeness by the grace of Christ our Lord. Amen.

1st. Letter of St. Paul to the Corinthians

Brothers and sisters; No one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.

There are different kinds of spiritual gifts but the same Spirit; there are different forms of service but the same Lord; there are different workings but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. To each individual the manifestation of the Spirit is given for some benefit.

As a body is one though it has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, are one body, so also Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, slaves or free persons, and we were all given to drink of one Spirit.


Veni, Sancte Spiritus

Come, Holy Spirit, come!
And from your celestial home
Shed a ray of light divine!

Come Father of the poor!
Come, source of all our store!
Come, within our bosoms shine.
You, of comforters the best;
You, the soul's most welcome guest;
Sweet refreshment here below
In our labor, rest most sweet;
Grateful coolness inthe heat;
Solace int he midst of woe.

O most blessed Light divine,
Shine within these hearts of yours,
And our inmost being fill!

Where you are not, we have
naught,
Nothing good in deed or thought,
Nothing free from taint of ill.
Heal our wounds, our strength renew;
On our dryness pour your dew;
Wash the stains of guilt away:
Bend the stubborn heart and will;
Melt the frozen, warm the chill;
Guide the speps that go astray.

On the faithful, we adore
And confess you, evermore
In your sevenfold gift descend;
Give them virtue's sure reward;
Give them your salvation, Lord;
Give them joys that never end.

Amen
Alleluia.


Come, Holy SPirit, fill the hearts of your faithful
and kindle in them the fire of your love.

Lord send out your spirit and renew the face of the earth.

Lord's Prayer

Our Father who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name;
Thy kingdom come;
thy will be done
on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses
as we forgive those
Who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from evil.
For thine is the kingdom,
the power,
and the Glory forever.

AMEN

SIGNING OF THE SENSES:

Priest:
l. Receive the cross on your forehead. It is Christ himself who now strengthens you with this sign of his love. Learn to know and follow him.

2. Receive the sign of the cross on your eyes, that you may hear the voice of the Lord.

3. Receive the sign of the cross on your eyes, that you may see the glory of God.

4. Receive the sign of the cross on your lips, that you may respond to the word of God.

5. Receive the sign of the cross over your heart, that Christ may dwell there by faith, the gentle yoke of Christ.

6. Receive the sign of the cross on your shoulders that you may bear the gentle yoke of Christ.

BLESSING: Priest

7. I sign you witht he sign of eternla life in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.

Amen, and Amen.

Those who seek your face, Lord, with a pure heart shall stand in your holy place.

Psalm 26 (Scrutinies)
l. Examine mee, God, test my motives.
My thoughts and desires you can see.
Your love, ever constant is my guide;
O lead me in your truth.

2. My hands I have washed in my innocence.
I worship your name at your altar.
A hymn of thanksgiving I will sing
to tell your wondrous deeds.

3. O God how I love where you live,
the place where you dwell
in your glory.
O spare me from evil and the fate
of those who sin against you.

4. I walk on the path of perfection.
Redeem me and show me your mercy.
O God, from all danger keep me safe.
I bless you with your people,

Psalm 32 (Scrutineies)

1. O happy are those you forgive,
the people whose sin'you have pardoned,
O happy the guiltless for their hearts
are free from all deceit.

2. O God when I grieved at my guilt
my days were exhausted with crying;
your hands was upon me night and day,
my strength drained away.

3. But then I concessed all my sins,
I did not conceal my wrongdoings.
To you I confessed them
and in love
You have forgiven me.

4. God, you are the place where I hide.
When I am in trouble you save me.
Aloud I will sing of your salvation.
God, protect my soul.

(Writings of King David)

Oops. I wasn't paying attention. Tell me again what is going on.

[Hyman Roth]

So....Elivs was Katydid all along?

[WARF]

It's sorta like when Norman Bates dressed up as his mother in psycho!!!

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by WARF
"Through Jesus you will be saved."

And I'm telling you that the Catholic church teaches something other than that...

Any Catholic who sees the truth, accepts it, and lives it will be saved, but the true believers usually end up leaving the Catholic church...

What I'm saying is that the Catholic church has works, indulgences and sacriments tacked on to salvation in addition to recieving Christ...

Even katydid knows this...

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by WARF
Ted Turner once said long ago...

" Jesus Christ is for weak minded people."

You know what...
he's 100% right...

We are all weak without Jesus!

No. YOU are weak without JEE-ZUSSS-AHHH!!!

There are several billion people on this planet who get along just fine without the Jesus thing.

In fact, many people are much happier and more able to lead a productive life without that Jesus creature (and the flock of weaklings who follow it) interfering with their lives.

If you cannot exist without the Jesus, you are a weak individual. True strength is when you can exist without a crutch.

IF you depend on Jesus, you are basing your life upon something that is not real. One could just as easily base one's life upon Beavis and receive just as much spiritual growth.





http://pauillac.inria.fr/~harley/pics/beavis.christ.jpg

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by WARF
It's sorta like when Norman Bates dressed up as his mother in psycho!!!

Katypig IS her own mother!
http://i11.tinypic.com/2z5lput.jpg

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by ELVIS
And I'm telling you that the Catholic church teaches something other than that...

Even katydid knows this...

Yes....Satan worship.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
If you cannot exist without the Jesus, you are a weak individual. True strength is when you can exist without a crutch.


http://pauillac.inria.fr/~harley/pics/beavis.christ.jpg

No, Jesus is real...

Jesus came that we all may have life, and life more abundantly, on earth as well as in Heaven...

If you're satisfied with mere existance, shame on you...

[ELVIS]

For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Hebrews 4:12


:elvis:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
No, Jesus is real...

Jesus came that we all may have life, and life more abundantly, on earth as well as in Heaven...


There was life on Earth 3 800 000 000 years before Jesus is said to have been born.

[FORD]

I'm sorry, but I can't stop laughing at the crucified Beavis........

What would his "Sermon on the Mount" have been like?

Blessed are the chicks with nice hooters, cuz they're like hot and stuff huh huh huh.

Blessed is Metallica, because they ROCK. They ROCK!!!

Blessed is Butthead, even though I can kick his ass. Kick it! Kick it!

And then he fed the multitudes with one order of nachos he hath purchased from the Kwiki Mart. Amen.....

[Susie Q]

Interesting statistic's there Sesh. I think what is the best thing to do is read the bible for one's self and interpret it for yourself. Not to be led by some higharchy in a bathrobe. I started to read the bible and noticed a lot of inconsistency's and repetitiveness. That was a while back and I have'nt really picked it up since.

I DO believe in a higher power. I do know that he has a plan for each of us. A path of some sort to follow.

Each of our destiney's are in his hands...

[scamper]

I don't see what the arguement is about, either you believe or not. If you do, good, If you don't, good. It's all about personal preference. The thing I don't understand is why people who don't believe celebrate Christmas.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Susie Q

I DO believe in a higher power. I do know that he has a plan for each of us. A path of some sort to follow.

Each of our destiney's are in his hands...

No, it's in our hands...

It's our responsibility to turn to God and seek his plan for lives...

And the only way to do that is to learn the word of God, believe it to be true, and apply it to our lives...

Many so called believers know the word of God, and claim to believe it, but living it is "something else"...

I trust God and his word, and by the worlds standard that may be foolish, but the Bible is God's love letter to his greatest creation, which is us...

He knows way better than us what will make us happy and the boundaries in the Bible are the pathway to that happiness...

I think it's foolish for anyone to just blindly disregard God's word...

Open your minds and your hearts and take a real look at what God says...

I challenge you...


:elvis:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by scamper
I don't see what the arguement is about, either you believe or not. If you do, good, If you don't, good. It's all about personal preference. The thing I don't understand is why people who don't believe celebrate Christmas.

We're taking our festival back.

Like most of their myth the Christians stole the story from pagan traditions and hijacked it for their own evil means.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I think it's foolish for anyone to just blindly disregard God's word...

Open your minds and your hearts and take a real look at what God says...

I challenge you...


:elvis:


Ok...



When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

[ELVIS]

Good question...

Does God condone slavery (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html) in the Bible ??

[Seshmeister]

Oh look some good parental advice for me.

Thanks god!


"Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town. They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.' Then all the men of the town must stone him to death. In this way, you will cleanse this evil from among you, and all Israel will hear about it and be afraid." (Deuteronomy 21:18-21 NLT)

[Seshmeister]

"You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. For I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishment for their father's wickedness on the children of those who hate me, down to the third and fourth generation" (Exodus 20:4-5 NAB)

Your god is a prick. Tell him I said that next time you are having your one to none conversation.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Good question...

Does God condone slavery (http://www.christian-thinktank.com/qnoslave.html) in the Bible ??

Frequently.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Your god is a prick. Tell him I said that next time you are having your one to none conversation.

I don't need to tell him, He knows your every thought...

I'll pray for you, though...


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Stoning Disobedient Children

The Real Meaning

Therefore, the law of Deuteronomy 21:18-21 is not about stoning disobedient children. The Bible does not instructs parents to use stoning in dealing with the rebellious nature and disobedience of their children, but to use the rod and reproof (Pr. 29:15). Children are to be trained from a young age by consistent and loving discipline so that the foolishness that is bound up in them can be driven out (Pr. 22:15), and they will learn to honor and obey their parents and all those whom God has placed in authority over them. The case law in discussion does not apply to young children during the formative years, but applies, instead, to a grown son (and by extension to a daughter as well) who, for whatever reason, has rebelled against the authority of his parents and will not profit from any of their discipline nor obey their voice in any thing. It is a case of habitual contempt of parental authority characterized by a young adult living a life without moral restraint who lashes out verbally and/or physically against his mother and father. It is a case where the evil character of the son is apparently set, and there is no reasonable hope of his ever changing.

The kind of rebellion against parental authority described in this case law is called "evil" (v. 21). It is evil because it holds both God and his law (i.e., the command to honor parents) in derision. It is evil because it threatens the very existence of the family, and therefore, of society itself. It is evil because it signals the rejection of all God-ordained authority and leads to civil and ecclesiastical disorder. God considers it such a dangerous evil that it must be extinguished by death at the hands of the civil magistrate.4

Inescapable Death
Those who consider death as a horrible punishment here must realize that in such a case as described in Deuteronomy 21:18-21, "death" is inescapable. Contempt of parental authority, if left unchecked, is the death of the family, law, and order. The question then is: Who or what should die? The rebel, or family and society? Furthermore, the life of a rebel inevitably leads to the grave (sheol; cf.Pr. 30:17); he will die an early death, and probably take others with him. Finally, God himself declares that even if such a rebel against parental authority escapes the judgment of man, his curse is upon that man and he shall be cut off (Dt. 27:16; Pr. 30:17). Therefore, the execution of the rebel in view is just, merciful, and preventive. Just, in that the transgressor deserves to die; merciful, in that his quick death prevents the destruction of the family, society, and others; preventive, in that it strikes fear in the heart of other would-be rebels and restrains them from taking a similar ruinous course.

Theonomists must not be embarrassed by the law of Deuteronomy 21:18-21, nor should they be chagrined when others try to use it to discredit the case laws of the Old Testament. Properly understood, it displays the wisdom and mercy of God in restraining wickedness so that the righteous might flourish in peace. It is those who reject this case law that should be embarrassed, for they have cast reproach on God and his law, cast aside the testimony of Christ,5 and have substituted their own imaginations (Jer. 7:24) for the blessed word of God.


Link (http://www.patriarchspath.org/Articles/Docs/Stoning_Disobedient_Children.htm)

[ELVIS]

That's exactly what you and many others do who rely on your own cleverness...

Cast aside the testimony of Christ and substitute your own imagination for the word of God...

[Hardrock69]

Christians are following the Word Of Imagination, as set down in scripture about 2,000 years ago.

Yes....Jesus is real.....real DEAD! If he ever truly existed, he has been dead for nearly 2,000 years.

Somebody needs to discover where his tomb is, so the weak can flock there in droves to worship some dry old crumbling bones....

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by scamper
I don't see what the arguement is about, either you believe or not. If you do, good, If you don't, good. It's all about personal preference. The thing I don't understand is why people who don't believe celebrate Christmas.

Because they believe in Christmas...not some kind of bullshit children's fairy tale written by the greatest authors of fiction in recorded history....the Roman Catholic Church!

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Stoning Disobedient Children

The Real Meaning

Therefore, the law of Deuteronomy 21:18-21 is not about stoning disobedient children. The Bible does not instructs parents to use stoning in dealing with the rebellious nature and disobedience of their children, but to use the rod and reproof (Pr. 29:15). Children are to be trained from a young age by consistent and loving discipline so that the foolishness that is bound up in them can be driven out (Pr. 22:15), and they will learn to honor and obey their parents and all those whom God has placed in authority over them. The case law in discussion does not apply to young children during the formative years, but applies, instead, to a grown son (and by extension to a daughter as well) who, for whatever reason, has rebelled against the authority of his parents and will not profit from any of their discipline nor obey their voice in any thing. It is a case of habitual contempt of parental authority characterized by a young adult living a life without moral restraint who lashes out verbally and/or physically against his mother and father. It is a case where the evil character of the son is apparently set, and there is no reasonable hope of his ever changing.

The kind of rebellion against parental authority described in this case law is called "evil" (v. 21). It is evil because it holds both God and his law (i.e., the command to honor parents) in derision. It is evil because it threatens the very existence of the family, and therefore, of society itself. It is evil because it signals the rejection of all God-ordained authority and leads to civil and ecclesiastical disorder. God considers it such a dangerous evil that it must be extinguished by death at the hands of the civil magistrate.4

Inescapable Death
Those who consider death as a horrible punishment here must realize that in such a case as described in Deuteronomy 21:18-21, "death" is inescapable. Contempt of parental authority, if left unchecked, is the death of the family, law, and order. The question then is: Who or what should die? The rebel, or family and society? Furthermore, the life of a rebel inevitably leads to the grave (sheol; cf.Pr. 30:17); he will die an early death, and probably take others with him. Finally, God himself declares that even if such a rebel against parental authority escapes the judgment of man, his curse is upon that man and he shall be cut off (Dt. 27:16; Pr. 30:17). Therefore, the execution of the rebel in view is just, merciful, and preventive. Just, in that the transgressor deserves to die; merciful, in that his quick death prevents the destruction of the family, society, and others; preventive, in that it strikes fear in the heart of other would-be rebels and restrains them from taking a similar ruinous course.

Theonomists must not be embarrassed by the law of Deuteronomy 21:18-21, nor should they be chagrined when others try to use it to discredit the case laws of the Old Testament. Properly understood, it displays the wisdom and mercy of God in restraining wickedness so that the righteous might flourish in peace. It is those who reject this case law that should be embarrassed, for they have cast reproach on God and his law, cast aside the testimony of Christ,5 and have substituted their own imaginations (Jer. 7:24) for the blessed word of God.


Link (http://www.patriarchspath.org/Articles/Docs/Stoning_Disobedient_Children.htm)

Did you read this garbage?

You support this crap?

That if a kid is rude to his parents then he is inherently evil and the most merciful way to deal with them is to kill them by stoning?

[Hardrock69]

On a relevant note The Talmud supports sodomy of children....lots of stuff about the laws allowing child molestion, etc. where they say it is perfectly alright to marry a young girl aged 3 years and a day.....and fornicate with her in the usual way.
:rolleyes:

See? You get into organized religion and you have to deal with sodomites and baby rapers, not to mention the usual murder, genocide, , adultery by God, etc., etc.

:rolleyes:

Seems to me that this "God" of Abraham is actually doing the work usually credited to Satan.

Murdering thousands of innocent people including children and babies just to take their land (thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not covet thy neighbors property), the God in question commits adultery and the illegitimate result itself is worshipped AS a god (a violation of the commandments "Thou shalt worship no other gods before me", "Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife" and "Thou shalt not commit adultery"), claiming that people who worship other gods are "wicked and evil", which is a direct violation of the commandment "thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor".....

So those who run around shrieking and hooting and gibbering about "JEE-ZUSS is Lord!" are in direct violation of the commandment "Thou shalt worship no other gods before me", and by even writing down these commandments, and then claiming that God himself broke them on numerous occasions, this must mean that the commandments were lies themselves.

Christianity is the biggest bunch of bullshit in the history of mankind.....
:rolleyes:

God: "Hey everyone, here are these groovy commandments. Now I order you to break every single one of them, or else you will burn in Hell, but if you do break any of them you are automatically a sinner and will burn in Hell anyway..."

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
That's exactly what you and many others do who rely on your own cleverness...

Cast aside the testimony of Christ and substitute your own imagination for the word of God...

This is a funny post, you hit the nail on the head.

I use intelligence you use imagination.

I would much rather rely on my cleverness than to rely on someone elses stupidity.

Cheers

:gulp:

[Hardrock69]

Hey Sesh, I would think Kermit's arm is about to fall off by now....he has only been jacking off Fozzy Bear for what, a month now?
:D

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by FORD
I'm sorry, but I can't stop laughing at the crucified Beavis........

What would his "Sermon on the Mount" have been like?

Blessed are the chicks with nice hooters, cuz they're like hot and stuff huh huh huh.

Blessed is Metallica, because they ROCK. They ROCK!!!

Blessed is Butthead, even though I can kick his ass. Kick it! Kick it!

And then he fed the multitudes with one order of nachos he hath purchased from the Kwiki Mart. Amen.....


And those who do not ummmm...believeth on, ummmm cappucino will burn in a lake of.....fire...yeah...heheheheheh heheheheheheh heheheh

YEAH!!!! FIRE!!! FIRE FIRE FIRE!!!!!

http://smartlabs.lewiston.k12.id.us/Jenifer/MrazJacob/images/beavis6.jpg

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I don't need to tell him, He knows your every thought...

I'll pray for you, though...


:elvis:

Dude you are getting mixed up it's Santa that knows your every thought.

It's so he knows if you've been naughty or nice so he knows which children get the presents.

All through December Mummy and Daddy use that threat as a way to control their kids. The kids sent Santa letters but he never replies. He's invisible and noone ever sees him delivering the presents and it would break all the laws of nature if he existed.

Actually I can see how you got the two mixed up...:)

[FORD]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Oh look some good parental advice for me.

“
"Suppose a man has a stubborn, rebellious son who will not obey his father or mother, even though they discipline him. In such cases, the father and mother must take the son before the leaders of the town. They must declare: 'This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious and refuses to obey. He is a worthless drunkard.'

”

[Post #166]

Thanks god!

Sesh, how can you continue to deny God when the above quoted scripture is obviously a prophetic warning about George W. Bush Jr.? ;)

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Hey Sesh, I would think Kermit's arm is about to fall off by now....he has only been jacking off Fozzy Bear for what, a month now?
:D

Posts like this are great when people stumble across the thread months later and your avatar has changed by then...:D

[Hardrock69]

LMFAO!!!!

:D

[WARF]

Originally posted by Hardrock69

If you cannot exist without the Jesus, you are a weak individual. True strength is when you can exist without a crutch.



Prove to me that he is not real.

I was a god hater and non believer a year ago.

So I'll listen to anyone's story and not be judgemental.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Hardrock69

There are several billion people on this planet who get along just fine without the Jesus thing.



That's right...they have the Mohammed/Allah thing, the Buddha thing, the Jewish thing, the Shinto thing, the Hindu cow worshipping thing, etc.

Let go of the hate, dude.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by WARF
I'm gonna break this down from what I've gathered.

God = Father

Jesus = Son

Anyone who accepts Jesus as god, by the mouth and heart will be saved.... (Catholics, Born Again Christians, Lutherians etc etc)

When you accept this god gives you a spirit.

When you recieve this spirit, you are now one of GOD'S CHILDREN.

So if Jesus is the son of god... and those who believe are the children of god... doesn't that make Jesus our brother?

So just like Jesus died on the cross to save us from our sins... he gives us the power of prayer to forgive others!

So what does that mean?

I think us Christians have the power to forgive others into heaven!

But then again... we are just the jury in god's court.

God is the final judge,

Preach it, brutha, preach it!!! :)

[WARF]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Preach it, brutha, preach it!!! :)

Not bad for a weak minded, crutch needing fool? :D

Merry CHRISTmas everyone.

"mas" meaning more in Spanish.

I wish everyone MORE CHRIST for the hollidays.

Especially my good friend in the John Kerry avatar!

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
That's right...they have the Mohammed/Allah thing, the Buddha thing, the Jewish thing, the Shinto thing, the Hindu cow worshipping thing, etc.

Let go of the hate, dude.

Not to mention the "Agnostic thing".

Shrieking about Jesus is not a requirement for anyone to be spiritually alive.

What hate? I speak facts.
I don't "hate" Christians.

You just cannot accept that there are people out there who actually know the history of the Christian religion, and it does not agree with the fairy tale that most Christians have been brainwashed to believe.

:rolleyes:

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by WARF
Prove to me that he is not real.

I was a god hater and non believer a year ago.

So I'll listen to anyone's story and not be judgemental.

Prove to me JEE-ZUSSS-AH is real.

Prove it.

Tell us his address, what kind of car he drives, etc.

If he truly was alive, he would be the biggest celebrity of all time, and would be in the newspapers and on CNN every day of the week.

I have listened to everyone's story, and without being judgemental, I can honestly state the REALITY:

The only way that a 2000-year-old human can be alive is if he is some kind of zombified skeletal mummy motherfucker.

And that kind of stuff is in the realm of fantasy.

Faith has nothing to do with it.

The definition of faith is: Believing in something that does not exist. Something that is NOT REAL.

Most people that believe in something that does not exist all live in the same type of facility....those that have rubber rooms, custom-fitted white coats with extra long sleeves, and nice muscle-bound creeps in white who make sure you take your Thorazine™ every day.

Believing in something that is real does not require faith. I believe in the telephone pole across the street. I do not have to have faith in it, because it does already exist.

It is one thing to have faith in a God, who typically has no physical form, and basically does not exist in the physical world.

But having faith that a human who has been dead for 2,000 years is somehow still alive is something else entirely.

[ELVIS]

Do you believe that you have a spirit ??

[Hardrock69]

That is irrelevant.
My post above was about belieiving that humans can live for 2,000 years.

Sorry, it is not possible.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Prove to me JEE-ZUSSS-AH is real.

Prove it.

Tell us his address, what kind of car he drives, etc.

If he truly was alive, he would be the biggest celebrity of all time, and would be in the newspapers and on CNN every day of the week.

I have listened to everyone's story, and without being judgemental, I can honestly state the REALITY:

The only way that a 2000-year-old human can be alive is if he is some kind of zombified skeletal mummy motherfucker.

And that kind of stuff is in the realm of fantasy.

Faith has nothing to do with it.

The definition of faith is: Believing in something that does not exist. Something that is NOT REAL.

Most people that believe in something that does not exist all live in the same type of facility....those that have rubber rooms, custom-fitted white coats with extra long sleeves, and nice muscle-bound creeps in white who make sure you take your Thorazine™ every day.

Believing in something that is real does not require faith. I believe in the telephone pole across the street. I do not have to have faith in it, because it does already exist.

It is one thing to have faith in a God, who typically has no physical form, and basically does not exist in the physical world.

But having faith that a human who has been dead for 2,000 years is somehow still alive is something else entirely.

You've given this same, sorry-assed rant before. It makes no sense.

Faith means everything...like I have faith you are an idiot.

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Hebrews 11:1

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Hardrock69

My post above was about belieiving that humans can live for 2,000 years.


Jesus is not a human being as he was 2000 years ago, but he is alive...

[ELVIS]

The Spirit (http://godkind.org/spirit-in-man.html) IN Man!


:elvis:

[Seshmeister]

Wow that's a really ignorant website. Whales should be cleverer than people because they have bigger brains but they aren't because humans have souls? Then offers 'proof' which is just citing crap from the bible.

It's like going back in a time machine 500 years to a pre science age. It's pretty ironic that jokers like that spout their crap on the internet...

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Posts like this are great when people stumble across the thread months later and your avatar has changed by then...:D

I am going to laugh in 6 months....

But then, I am laughing at some of the posts in here now for other reasons...

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Jesus is not a human being as he was 2000 years ago, but he is alive...

No. His name is alive.

Kept that way by legions of brainwashed followers.

Nothing more.



Originally posted by BigBadBrian
You've given this same, sorry-assed rant before. It makes no sense.

It only makes no sense to people who have no sense.




Originally posted by BigBadBrian
YouFaith means everything...like I have faith you are an idiot.

Speak for yourself. Historians need not apologize for history.


Originally posted by BigBadBrian

Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Hebrews 11:1


Everyone is certain of what they hope for and what they do not see.

If you want to define "faith" go to dictionary.com



faith /feɪθ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[feyth] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2. belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact. But not even Billy Graham could back up his hypothesis with facts.

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Do you believe that you have a spirit ??

Of course we all have a spirit.

You know that red stuff that comes out when you accidently cut yourself? That's really tomato sauce.

Of course scientists deny it, but that's because they don't have faith.

RAmen.

[scamper]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
It's pretty ironic that jokers like that spout their crap on the internet...

Pot....Kettle....Black....

[Seshmeister]

Nope.

[Seshmeister]

http://www.b3ta.cr3ation.co.uk/data/jpg/sick_xmas_maryjoseph_lrg.jpg

[Seshmeister]

http://img133.imageshack.us/img133/5192/merrychristmasyz0.jpg

[ELVIS]

Whatever, dude...



Proof of God - Intelligent Design (http://www.allaboutcreation.org/proof-of-god.htm)


What would constitute objective proof of God? Well, consider the following self-evident and universally recognized truth: Concept and design necessitate an intelligent designer. The presence of intelligent design proves the existence of an intelligent designer. It's simply cause and effect. In our search for proof of God's existence, we could examine the various claims of supernatural occurrences, determine whether or not these are legitimate experiences, and build a case for the existence of the supernatural, which would be a step towards identifying a supernatural Creator God. Or we can just apply what we already know and search for signs of intelligent design within creation itself.

We know that design necessitates a designer. In fact, in accordance with this fundamental axiom, design detection methodology is a prerequisite in many fields of human endeavor, including archaeology, anthropology, forensics, criminal jurisprudence, copyright law, patent law, reverse engineering, crypto analysis, random number generation, and SETI. And how do we recognize intelligent design? In general, we find "specified complexity" to be a reliable indicator of the presence of intelligent design. Chance can explain complexity alone but not specification -- a random sequence of letters is complex but not specified (it's meaningless). A Shakespearean sonnet is both complex and specified (it's meaningful). We can't have a Shakespearean sonnet without Shakespeare. (William A. Dembski, The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities, 1998.)

Proof of God - Nature
So where's the proof of God's existence? In accordance with our familiar axiom and in light of the tremendous advances we've made in molecular biology, biochemistry, genetics and information theory, the proof of God is all around us!

Through the microscope, we observe the E. coli bacterial flagellum. The bacterial flagellum is what propels E. coli bacteria through its microscopic world. It consists of about 40 individual protein parts including a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It's a microscopic outboard motor! The individual parts come into focus when magnified 50,000 times (using electron micrographs). And even though these microscopic outboard motors run at an incredible 100,000 rpm, they can stop on a microscopic dime. It takes only a quarter turn for them to stop, shift directions and start spinning 100,000 rpm in the opposite direction! The flagellar motor has two gears (forward and reverse), is water-cooled, and is hardwired into a signal transduction (sensory mechanism) so that it receives feedback from its environment. ("Unlocking the Mystery of Life," video documentary by Illustra Media, 2002.)

When we apply the general principles of detecting specified complexity to biologic systems (living creatures), we find it reasonable to infer the presence intelligent design. Take, for example, the bacterial flagellum's stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, and propeller. It is not convenient that we've given these parts these names - that's truly their function. If you were to find a stator, rotor, drive-shaft, U-joint, or propeller in any vehicle, machine, toy or model, you would recognize them as the product of an intelligent source. No one would expect an outboard motor -- much less one as incredible as the flagellar motor -- to be the product of a chance assemblage of parts. Motors are the product of intelligent design.

Furthermore, the E. coli bacterial flagellum simply could not have evolved gradually over time. The bacterial flagellum is an "irreducibly complex" system. An irreducibly complex system is one composed of multiple parts, all of which are necessary for the system to function. If you remove any one part, the entire system will fail to function. Every individual part is integral. There is absolutely no naturalistic, gradual, evolutionary explanation for the bacterial flagellum. (Michael Behe, Darwin's Black Box, 1996.)

The bacterial flagellum (not to mention the irreducibly complex molecular machines responsible for the flagellum's assembly) is just one example of the specified complexity that pervades the microscopic biological world. Molecular biologist Michael Denton wrote, "Although the tiniest bacterial cells are incredibly small, weighing less than 10-12 grams, each is in effect a veritable micro-miniaturized factory containing thousands of exquisitely designed pieces of intricate molecular machinery, made up altogether of one hundred thousand million atoms, far more complicated than any machinery built by man and absolutely without parallel in the non-living world." (Michael Denton, Evolution: A Theory in Crisis, 1986, p. 250.)

Proof of God - His Fingerprints are Everywhere
Where is the proof of God? If we're willing to open our eyes, we'll see the fingerprints of God all around us and all throughout us. Our very existence proves the existence of a Creator God.



:elvis:

[ELVIS]

The Bacterial Flagellum (e. coli) (http://www.nofreelunchbook.com/graphics/FLAG0853%20(OpenFlag)W200.jpg)


Water-cooled rotary engine

Driven by proton motive force

Operates at 6,000 to 17,000 rpm

Can reverse direction within 1/4 rotation

Runs in forward and reverse

Can self-assemble & repair

Only 20 nanometers wide

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
The Bacterial Flagellum (e. coli) (http://www.nofreelunchbook.com/graphics/FLAG0853%20(OpenFlag)W200.jpg)


Water-cooled rotary engine

Driven by proton motive force

Operates at 6,000 to 17,000 rpm

Can reverse direction within 1/4 rotation

Runs in forward and reverse

Can self-assemble & repair

Only 20 nanometers wide

You forgot the most important characteristic of e.coli.....

Can hide in your lunch and really fuck you up.

Now if we could only harness the power of a few billion water powered rotary engines........

[FORD]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
Of course we all have a spirit.

You know that red stuff that comes out when you accidently cut yourself? That's really tomato sauce.

Of course scientists deny it, but that's because they don't have faith.

RAmen.

Tomato sauce? Ramen??

Uh-oh..... Pinky's back and she's joined the Pastafarians!!

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by ELVIS
The Bacterial Flagellum (e. coli) (http://www.nofreelunchbook.com/graphics/FLAG0853%20(OpenFlag)W200.jpg)


Water-cooled rotary engine

Driven by proton motive force

Operates at 6,000 to 17,000 rpm

Can reverse direction within 1/4 rotation

Runs in forward and reverse

Can self-assemble & repair

Only 20 nanometers wide

What Elvis is trying to say is that boat-building is proof of a deity.

I completely agree with this.

The FSM bestowed this great gift upon his children.


According to the Pastafarian belief system, pirates are "absolute divine beings" and the original Pastafarians. Their image as "thieves and outcasts" is misinformation spread by Christian theologians in the Middle Ages. Pastafarianism says that they were in fact "peace-loving explorers and spreaders of good will" who distributed candy to children.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

[Susie Q]

Originally posted by ELVIS
No, it's in our hands...

It's our responsibility to turn to God and seek his plan for lives...

And the only way to do that is to learn the word of God, believe it to be true, and apply it to our lives...

Many so called believers know the word of God, and claim to believe it, but living it is "something else"...

I trust God and his word, and by the worlds standard that may be foolish, but the Bible is God's love letter to his greatest creation, which is us...

He knows way better than us what will make us happy and the boundaries in the Bible are the pathway to that happiness...

I think it's foolish for anyone to just blindly disregard God's word...

Open your minds and your hearts and take a real look at what God says...

I challenge you...


:elvis:

God chooses our paths. Everything happens for a reason. The good and the bad. I have read the first few books of the bible and thought...."I thought God didn't like people who did that, or say this, etc.." Yet, he condoned their behavior. Why of the multiple wives? Why did he let sisters lay down with brothers? What about the guy who made the Pharaoh believe that the woman he was 'into' was this guys 'sister' and not his wife? The guy wanted to run away with all the pharaohs stuff. "Thou shalt not steal" right? "Thou shalt not lie" and yet this guy went into the high ranks with God. Why was that?

Since I have moved I don't know where my bibles that I did have are, or I would quote out of them just like everyone else did to prove a point.

Bottom line is, like someone has already said, "You either believe or you don't". Personal choice. You can't make someone believe just as you can't make someone NOT believe.

They have to deduce it for themselves.

[ELVIS]

We choose our own paths, Susie. That's what free will is all about...

To believe in God and then use your own imagination to light your path is a very dangerous place to be...

Everything does happen for a reason, that's true...

But the Bible says:

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.
Romans 8:28


Next time you stumble across your Bible, open it up to the first page of the New Testament...


;)

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
The Bacterial Flagellum (e. coli) (http://www.nofreelunchbook.com/graphics/FLAG0853%20(OpenFlag)W200.jpg)


Water-cooled rotary engine

Driven by proton motive force

Operates at 6,000 to 17,000 rpm

Can reverse direction within 1/4 rotation

Runs in forward and reverse

Can self-assemble & repair

Only 20 nanometers wide

I was wondering when this bacteria shit would appear here.

I find it funny watching the odd remaining scientists who believe in creationism being pushed further and further into tiny tiny shit because all the other life has been proved as being the result of evolution.

First up there are actually a couple of scientists that have shown how even this evolved but its pointless discussing it here because it's all far too technical and complicated and noone here would be able to follow it.

Secondly you have this stupid god idea with no proof whatsoever and every so often one of these creationist fuckwits says something like 'How could a weevil have evolved an elbow' and so someone has to go off and research it for 2 years and prove it's path of evolution.

It used to be eyes were the problem but that has been totally proved by showing how eyes evolve and how there are animals like flatworms who can see just shapes, how even this gives an advantage and how there are animals with all the steps in between that and human eyes.

Meanwhile Mr Fuckwit just comes up with another stupid question whilst explaining nothing about his invisible friend or who the fuck created this intelligent creator.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[ELVIS]

Testy testy...

So, where are all of the mid-evolution fossils ??

[Nickdfresh]

What pisses me off is the Christian War on Saturnalia! :mad:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Testy testy...

So, where are all of the mid-evolution fossils ??


I'm not testy with you just the guy you quote who should know better.

The mid evolution fossils is just grasping at straws. The evidence for evolution is overwhelming. The only reason that there aren't more fossils is simply that fossils only occur under very unusual circumstances.

Anyway why would your god plant the 'fake' fossils?

For people that find life the universe and everything difficult to understand and take solice in a creator just creates an much much bigger problem.

Simple things over time can become complex. What nature teaches us is that complex things don't appear from nowhere.

What can be more complex than the christian or muslim god?

Who created god?

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Susie Q
[B] Interesting statistic's there Sesh. I think what is the best thing to do is read the bible for one's self and interpret it for yourself. Not to be led by some higharchy in a bathrobe. /B]

Suzy, Suzy, girl, for cryin' out loud that would be great but not too many people do. If they did from outside the bubble of inherited superstition they would reject Christianity immediately.

In this thread and the other one it's been repeatedly proved why it is bullshit. To be honest I actually have some better argumens for god than the ones that have been argued here. They are bullshit but at least an argunent.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Seshmeister

Who created god?

Cheers!

:gulp:

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord” (Revelation 1:8)

Dude, I hear ya...

But I believe the Bible is the Holy Spirit inspired word of God...

That there is deep meaning in every part of the Bible, some of which most Christians will never understand. But a lot of it is quite easy to understand, and it sinks straight into my heart, just as it says it will...

No way do I have all the answers, but I have a thirst for the Word of God that is hard to explain...

On top of that, God actually answers my prayers, from the smallest to the largest, as long as they line up to His word. And His word says He will do just that...

I have faith that God will do what He says in His word...

Actually, the Bible says God has already done everything and we just have to align ourselves up according to His word to recieve it...

Oh well...


Cheers!
;)

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Who created god?

Cheers!

:gulp:

Human beings.

Elvis:

“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord” (Revelation 1:8)

Truthfully, this holds about as much water as any other religious mythology, but let's argue about it anyway.

If there was a creator, obviously you assume that it was a complex being. And so you argue that a complex creature HAD to have had a creator. Which obviously contradicts the stance on bacterial flagellum.

What we have observed so far with scientific hypothesis and testing is what we call evolution. These very same bacteria you tout as proof of god, evolves and develops resistance to antibiotics.

In fact look at one species that we can witness the evolution of. The dog. Look what the fuck we've done to wolves in a few thousand years!
We've turned some of them into yapping Chihuahuas! It wasn't magic or any kind of mystic creationism, it was by selective breeding. Imagine such a thing happening over millions or billions of years. WE HAVE PROOF. We can and do observe evolution taking place and to some extent, we can control it now.

So, back to the beginning. I think that the "alpha and omega" is a cop-out. EVERYTHING in our universe points to some sort of natural progression of things. We simply have no known proof of a creator. Mythological texts and a funny feeling that a god or gods exist don't count by the way.

If by chance a super being did exist it most likely had to evolve like the rest of us. So, therefore we have a bit of a paradox (for believers anyway). How does a super being come to existance (theoretically)? It most likely had to evolve.

In lack of evidence of a creator though, I would just cut the creator part out of the equation. There is no proof of one.

[Seshmeister]

That sums it up well.

Elvis think of all the gods you don't believe in - Bhuddha, Allah, Zeus, Xenu, Posieden, Vishnu, Ganesh, Shiva.

I'm the same as you the only difference is I don't believe in one extra one...

[LoungeMachine]

Lest we forget.....

Don't believe in ANYTHING other than what ELVIS believes, or else you're doomed to rot in a firey HELL for all eternity.

Organized Religion is like the world's largest chain letter.

Break the chain, you're doomed. :)

[ELVIS]

But, I think you're interested in believing in God if you were to figure out if He was real...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
But, I think you're interested in believing in God if you were to figure out if He was real...

See, this is where you're confused.

I have NEVER said I don't believe in a higher being.

I said I don't believe that we on Earth are the only ones created, and that NO TRUE GOD would doom for all eternity a GOOD soul who questioned a 2,000 year old book written by men.

Organized Religions all preach fear and hate, except for Buddhists.


Your whole "my way or hell" is utter bullshit.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I have NEVER said I don't believe in a higher being.


I have!:)

[Pink Spider]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Organized Religions all preach fear and hate, except for Buddhists.



They have one thing against them (that I can recall right now). They teach that any deformity was caused by sins in a past life.

So, some of them are assholes too.

[Seshmeister]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y291/Wonkey_Donkey/Misc/CCardB3ta.jpg

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine

Organized Religions all preach fear and hate, except for Buddhists.


They're no use either because of their appalling stance on booze.:)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
They're no use either because of their appalling stance on booze.:)


I choose to ignore that one ;)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
They have one thing against them (that I can recall right now). They teach that any deformity was caused by sins in a past life.

So, some of them are assholes too.

True.

But I also believe we ALL carry baggage from previous lives.

:cool:

[Pink Spider]

Although, I don't buy into it, I will give Buddhism some credit for being the least screwed up of the major religions. ;)

[bueno bob]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
So, back to the beginning. I think that the "alpha and omega" is a cop-out. EVERYTHING in our universe points to some sort of natural progression of things. We simply have no known proof of a creator. Mythological texts and a funny feeling that a god or gods exist don't count by the way.

If by chance a super being did exist it most likely had to evolve like the rest of us. So, therefore we have a bit of a paradox (for believers anyway). How does a super being come to existance (theoretically)? It most likely had to evolve.

Are you absolutely certain there are no absolutes?

:)

[Nickdfresh]

I think Deism is grate!

I believe that perhaps there is a God, but he/she/it doesn't give much of a shiite so it doesn't really matter anyway. Or is that Existentialism? (I'm a bit existential as well)

Oh fukk it I don't know! (and anyone that claims to know, religious or atheist, is full of shiite...)

[FORD]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh


Oh fukk it I don't know! (and anyone that claims to know, religious or atheist, is full of shiite...)

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/pY2iAxcAeTo"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/pY2iAxcAeTo" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

".....all I know is that I don't know......

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Pink Spider
Although, I don't buy into it, I will give Buddhism some credit for being the least screwed up of the major religions. ;)

Good call. I agree.

I saw a neat bumper sticker on the way to work this morning:
"God is too big for only one religion".

[ELVIS]

Jesus never spoke against anyone except the religious leaders of that day (and their religion) who were misleading the people...


55 The religious leaders and all the court were looking for something against Jesus. They wanted to find something so they could kill Him. But they could find nothing. 56 Many came and told false things about Him, but their words did not agree. 57 Some got up and said false things against Him. They said, 58 "We have heard Him say, 'I will destroy the house of God that was made with hands. In three days I will build another that is not made with hands.' '' 59 Even these who spoke against Him were not able to agree.

60 The head religious leader stood up in front of the people. He asked Jesus, "Have You nothing to say? What about the things these men are saying against You?" 61 Jesus said nothing. Again the head religious leader asked Him, "Are You the Christ, the Son of the Holy One?" 62 Jesus said, "I am! And you will see the Son of Man seated on the right side of the All-powerful God. You will see Him coming again in the clouds of the sky."

Matthew 26:55-62


:elvis: