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Pink Spider
02-20-2004, 07:37 PM
http://www.counterpunch.org/nader02192004.html


The following letter is a response to "An Open Letter to Ralph Nader," which appeared in the February 16 issue of The Nation.

As I reread slowly your open letter, which kindly started and closed with your demand "Don't run," memories of past Nation magazine writing, going back to the days of Carey McWilliams and earlier, came to mind. I share them with you. Long ago the The Nation stood steadfastly for more voices and choices inside the electoral arenas which today are more dominated than ever by the two-party duopoly trending toward one-party districts:

"Don't run."

The Nation's pages embrace large areas of agreement with the undersigned on policy matters and political reforms, especially the abusive power of Big Business over elections, the government and the economy:

"Don't run."

The Nation has been sharply critical of the Democratic Party's stagnation, the corporatist Democratic Leadership Council and its domination by Big Money. This is the same Party that has just ganged up on its insurgents and reasserted its established forces:

"Don't run."

The Nation has urgently reported on a tawdry electoral system-ridden with fraud and manipulation-that discourages earnest people from running clean campaigns about authentic necessities of the American people and the rest of the world:

"Don't run."

The Nation first informed me as a young man about the deliberate barriers-statutory, monetary, media and others-to third parties and independent candidates for a chance to compete, bring out more votes and generate more civic and political energies. This led me to write my first article on these exclusions against smaller candidacies in the late 1950s:

"Don't run."

The Nation has often encouraged the longer run effect of small candidacies (civil rights, economic populism, women's suffrage, labor and farmer parties), which have pushed the agendas of the major parties and sown the seeds for future adoption:

"Don't run."

The Nation has dutifully recorded the hapless state of the Democratic Party, which for the past ten years has registered more and more losses at the federal, state and local levels. The Party even managed to "lose" the presidency in 2000, which it actually won, even with all other "what ifs" considered, both before (Katherine Harris' voter purge), during (the deceptive ballots) and afterward (recount blunders by the Party):

"Don't run."

The Nation has editorialized about the spineless Democrats who could have stopped the two giant tax cuts for the wealthy, the unconstitutional war resolution, the Patriot(less) Act and John Ashcroft's nomination (to mention a few surrenders). Yet you have not pointed any external ways to stiffen the resolve or jolt the passivity of Jefferson's party, which lately has become very good at electing very bad Republicans all by itself:

"Don't run."

The Nation believes this cycle is different and that the Democrats have aroused themselves. This view is not the reality we experience regularly in Washington. Witness the latest collapse of the party's opposition to the subsidy-ridden wrongheaded energy and Medicare drug-benefit legislation--two core party issues:

"Don't run."

The Nation's venerable reputation has been anything but conceding the practical politics of servility which brings us worse servility and weaker democracy every four years:

"Don't run."

The Nation has intensely disliked being held hostage to antiquated electoral rules, from the Electoral College to the winner-take-all system that discounts tens of millions of votes. Such a stand would seem to call for candidates on the inside to highlight and help build the public constituency for change over time:

"Don't run."

It doesn't seem that The Nation would disagree with the conclusions of George Scialabba, who wrote last year in The Boston Review, "Two-party dominance allows disproportionate influence to swing voters, single-issue constituencies, and campaign contributors; it promotes negative, contentless campaigns; it rewards grossly inequitable redistricting schemes, and it penalizes those who disagree with both parties but fear to 'waste' their votes (which is why Nader probably lost many more voters to Gore than Gore lost to Nader)":

"Don't run."

The Nation's open letter does not go far enough in predicting where my votes would come from, beyond correctly inferring that there would be few liberal Democratic supporters. The out-of-power party always returns to the fold, while the in-power party sees its edges looking for alternatives. Much more than New Hampshire in 2000, where I received more Republican than Democratic votes, any candidacy would be directed toward Independents, Greens, third-party supporters, true progressives, and conservative and liberal Republicans, who are becoming furious with George W. Bush's policies, such as massive deficits, publicized corporate crimes, subsidies and pornography, civil liberties encroachments, sovereignty-suppressing trade agreements and outsourcing. And, of course, any candidacy would seek to do what we all must strive for-getting out more nonvoters who are now almost the majority of eligible voters:

"Don't run."

The Nation wants badly to defeat the selected President Bush but thinks there is only one pathway to doing so. This approach excludes a second front of voters against the regime, which could raise fresh subjects, motivating language and the vulnerabilities of corporate scandals and blocked reforms that the Democrats are too cautious, too indentured to their paymasters to launch-but are free to adopt if they see these succeed:

"Don't run."

The Nation has rarely been a hostage to prevailing dogma and electoral straitjackets. Its pages have articulated many "minorities of one" over its wondrous tenure and has watched many of its viewpoints today become the commonplace of tomorrow.

I have not known The Nation to so walk away from those engaging in a difficult struggle it champions on the merits, in a climate of conventional groupthink-much less with a precipitous prognosis of a distant outcome governed by a multitude of variables. Discussions and critiques from a distance, after all, are a dime a dozen in an election year. O apotheosis for the exercise of dissent inside and outside the electoral commons since 1865:

"Don't walk."

Ralph Nader can be reached through www.naderexplore04.org.

BigBadBrian
02-21-2004, 07:11 AM
:hagar2: :hagar3: :hagar1:

John Ashcroft
02-21-2004, 09:34 AM
Run Ralph, RUN!

FORD
02-21-2004, 10:46 AM
Nader/Buchanan 04! Let's fuck up BOTH Skull&Bones/PNAC candidates! :D

Sarge
02-22-2004, 11:09 AM
Nadar... ugh.
HE is running.
What an idiot.

John Ashcroft
02-22-2004, 11:25 AM
I've said it before, I'll say it again...

I hope he's got good security! :D

FORD
02-22-2004, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
I've said it before, I'll say it again...

I hope he's got good security! :D

Why would he need security? Apart from Kerry and his boss Will Marshall, Ralphie's the best thing the BCE has going for them.

rustoffa
02-22-2004, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Sarge
Nadar... ugh.
HE is running.
What an idiot.
Unsafe at any speed......arrgh.

John Ashcroft
02-22-2004, 06:36 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Why would he need security? Apart from Kerry and his boss Will Marshall, Ralphie's the best thing the BCE has going for them.

'Cause of dudes like you, brother. ;)

FORD
02-23-2004, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
'Cause of dudes like you, brother. ;)

Why would I care? If Junior wins the election this time (barring a repeat of Florida fraud or Supreme Court overruling) there's no way anybody will be able to blame Ralphie.

There were Democratic candidates available who would have kicked Juniors ass. Instead the "party establishment" (i.e. Republicans posing as Democrats) went with a weak pathetic loser who voted lock step with the BCE agenda the last three years.

It's Terry McUseless, Al From, Will Marshall of PNAC and John "Judas" Kerry who will be to blame for this loss. And all the sheep who let the media whores tell them who was "electable". :mad:

John Ashcroft
02-23-2004, 08:00 AM
You really think Dean could beat Dubya? Hell dude, he didn't even turn out the vote in his own party's primaries. That's not the DLC's fault either, as they can't keep people from voting. Dean just wasn't as popular as the media said he was. And it wasn't much of a surprise to me. Remember all of this the next time you see Kerry with a "double-digit" lead over the President.

FORD
02-23-2004, 09:57 AM
It's as simple as this: People crazy enough to like what the BCE has done to this country are going to vote for Junior anyway. People who are appalled at what the BCE has done won't vote for someone who enabled them to do it. Judas has voted consistently with the BCE agenda for the last three years. Dean opposed not only the BCE agenda, but the corporatists posing as "Democrats" who voted for it.

So there was a clear contrast. So was Kucinich, of course. But he was the true liberal in the mix, and his "Department of Peace" idea would never sell in a country completely paralyzed by BCE implemented fear tactics. Dean's record was not at all that of a "typical liberal" which allowed him to appeal to a wide range of voters from leftist greens to sane moderate Republicans.

Thus making him the main target for both corporatist parties. And so the unelectable LIE was born, and repeated endlessly.

John Ashcroft
02-23-2004, 12:52 PM
You see, your entire party's problem is they don't give an ounce of credit to the voter. To you guys it's all about packaging and the latest "bag of tricks". And you still wonder why you've lost both houses of Congress, the White House, and the majority of Governorships? You see the losses as proof that the American public is easily tricked, whereas the truth is the American public knows you ideology is a failed on. And they don't buy anything out of people like James Carville's mouths. It so damn clear that the public doesn't subscribe to your paranoid assessment of the Bush administration and the hate you direct to them. People don't hate George Bush, no matter how much you wish it were true. Are you willing to learn anything from Dean's loss? I mean, it was over the moment he shouted down that old man while exclaming "George Bush is not my neighbor!" No press tricks, no corporate conspiracy, no PNAC or BCE. Dean's mean nature and blatant hatred of the President was his downfall.

FORD
02-23-2004, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
You see, your entire party's problem is they don't give an ounce of credit to the voter. To you guys it's all about packaging and the latest "bag of tricks". And you still wonder why you've lost both houses of Congress, the White House, and the majority of Governorships? You see the losses as proof that the American public is easily tricked, whereas the truth is the American public knows you ideology is a failed on

No, I see the losses as proof that the DLC are Republicans who infiltrated the Democratic party with the intention of destroying it from within. Why is it that the only President elected since the inception of the DLC was one whose charisma far outshined his pandering to the right. (your favorite President Bill Clinton, naturally.)

Harry Truman said it 50 years ago and it's even truer today. You can't beat Republicans by acting like Republicans. It's true that the elections are all about the 10% in the middle, and if they want to deal with right wing policies, they might as well go with the ones who made the right wing policies then the guys trying to steal them. Clinton was a fluke among DLC candidates because he came across kinda like a new Kennedy. And no, I'm not referring to his extra-curricular activities.



And they don't buy anything out of people like James Carville's mouths. It so damn clear that the public doesn't subscribe to your paranoid assessment of the Bush administration and the hate you direct to them. People don't hate George Bush, no matter how much you wish it were true.

If they never hear the truth about Bush, then they never know what he's done to the country. If the media wasn't so PRAVDA like in nature these days, Junior would have been impeached or even possibly assassinated by now. Instead we have "the masses" who are spoon fed complete lies and believe them. And even when the lies fall apart, they buy the BCE justifications .

[quote] Are you willing to learn anything from Dean's loss? I mean, it was over the moment he shouted down that old man while exclaming "George Bush is not my neighbor!" No press tricks, no corporate conspiracy, no PNAC or BCE. Dean's mean nature and blatant hatred of the President was his downfall.

Dean's "mean nature and blatant hatred" were media creations. That old man was a Republican plant deliberately sent there to disrupt the rally, as evidenced by the fact that he was on FAUX News less than 24 hours later. And Dean let him have his say, and make his point. Which is far more than any Democrat would have got at a Bush Jr speech. And if you read the paparable of the Good Samaritan, which ends with Christ asking the crowd "who was this man's neighbor?", then it's clear that not everybody is, especially those such as George Bush who deliberately ignore the needs of the many to promote the needs of the few, ususally the rich.

Granted, that was a mix of Christianity and Vulcan proverbs, but no less the Truth.

Live Long and Prosper, Dr. Dean :cool:

Pink Spider
02-23-2004, 02:47 PM
Ashcroft trying to claim that Republicans are a party of love and also claiming to speak for the American people is hilarious.

"People don't hate George Bush"

Well, only over half. It's not like it's irrational hatred either. There are some pretty good reasons. However, blindly rallying behind Kerry isn't going to fix anything.

I just dislike Bush. Nothing more. It's a waste of time focusing on him, since he's nothing more than a puppet. Take away his teleprompter and he's just another stuttering rich hick with no perception of reality.

Also, I've always been told that it's not nice to hate the mentally challenged.

Remember, the Special Olympics are worth supporting. Here's what happens when you don't....

http://www.people.virginia.edu/~lml4q/BushSegway.jpg

John Ashcroft
02-23-2004, 03:01 PM
You guys are funny. Neither of you even remotely tried to address or understand your party's problems. Just more finger pointing. Hey, it's fine by me. Maybe this year we'll have a super majority in the Senate, and 30 Governorships. And Pinky, this is not a 50/50 nation no matter what your beloved press tries to tell you. Answer me this, why did Republicans gain seats in Bush's midterm?

Pink Spider
02-23-2004, 03:09 PM
My "beloved" press? My parties problems?

Once you're not confused by the minor stuff, we'll talk.

FORD
02-23-2004, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
why did Republicans gain seats in Bush's midterm?

Because DLC pussycrats like Judas, Dickless Gephardt and Daschle voted consistently FOR the BCE agenda.

Pink Spider
02-23-2004, 03:49 PM
Exactly. In 2002, it was basically a choice between a conservative Republican or a conservative Democrat and it still is. A lot of Dem candidates supported the war and most liberals didn't care for them or vote. So, we saw an disproportional turnout by Republicans.

The growing trend of neo-conservatism is another corporate media lie. The only ones that are growing more conservative are the Democrats and rest assured that both neo-conservative parties will be on their way out when true opposition parties and candidates finally break though the paranoia and scare tactics of the Republicrats.

FORD
02-23-2004, 04:58 PM
Here's the new Kerry campaign poster.....

KANE
02-23-2004, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Here's the new Kerry campaign poster.....
LOL...

John Ashcroft
02-23-2004, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Pink Spider
My "beloved" press? My parties problems?

Once you're not confused by the minor stuff, we'll talk.

And you see this as a clever dodge, don't cha sweet-cheeks...

Truth is, you can't hang. But there's always cookin' and cleaning to tend to, so you'll always have work. ;)

Pink Spider
02-23-2004, 09:55 PM
You really need some new material.

We'll see who's doing the dodging. Now, how am I a Democrat and why do I love the corporate media so much?

John Ashcroft
02-23-2004, 10:07 PM
Yeah, but the old stuff's still fun to use...

Anyway, you care to address what I've posted here:


Originally posted by John Ashcroft
You see, your entire party's problem is they don't give an ounce of credit to the voter. To you guys it's all about packaging and the latest "bag of tricks". And you still wonder why you've lost both houses of Congress, the White House, and the majority of Governorships? You see the losses as proof that the American public is easily tricked, whereas the truth is the American public knows you ideology is a failed on. And they don't buy anything out of people like James Carville's mouths. It so damn clear that the public doesn't subscribe to your paranoid assessment of the Bush administration and the hate you direct to them. People don't hate George Bush, no matter how much you wish it were true. Are you willing to learn anything from Dean's loss? I mean, it was over the moment he shouted down that old man while exclaming "George Bush is not my neighbor!" No press tricks, no corporate conspiracy, no PNAC or BCE. Dean's mean nature and blatant hatred of the President was his downfall.

And this doesn't count:


Originally posted by Pink Spider
Ashcroft trying to claim that Republicans are a party of love and also claiming to speak for the American people is hilarious.

"People don't hate George Bush"

Well, only over half. It's not like it's irrational hatred either. There are some pretty good reasons. However, blindly rallying behind Kerry isn't going to fix anything.

I just dislike Bush. Nothing more. It's a waste of time focusing on him, since he's nothing more than a puppet. Take away his teleprompter and he's just another stuttering rich hick with no perception of reality.

Also, I've always been told that it's not nice to hate the mentally challenged.

Remember, the Special Olympics are worth supporting. Here's what happens when you don't....


Nothing but bullshit here. Nothing in the way of responding to Dean's dismal primary performance, or why the Dems are doing so badly.

But I played along a bit here:


Originally posted by John Ashcroft
You guys are funny. Neither of you even remotely tried to address or understand your party's problems. Just more finger pointing. Hey, it's fine by me. Maybe this year we'll have a super majority in the Senate, and 30 Governorships. And Pinky, this is not a 50/50 nation no matter what your beloved press tries to tell you. Answer me this, why did Republicans gain seats in Bush's midterm?

And the best you can do is claim "They're not my beloved press"??? Hell, you claim the media is biased to Conservatives, even though they themselves admit this to be the opposite of the truth. But still, why do Dems continue to lose elections? Why does Nader only pull 4% or so of the votes? Does that mean that 96% of Americans are idiots, and only you 4% are the enlightened ones? Kind of an elitist attitude, no?

Now back to the kitchen! :p

Pink Spider
02-24-2004, 01:38 AM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
Yeah, but the old stuff's still fun to use...

Anyway, you care to address what I've posted here:


And this doesn't count:


Nothing but bullshit here. Nothing in the way of responding to Dean's dismal primary performance, or why the Dems are doing so badly.

I don't really care about Dean. So, why should I care if the corporatist Dems are stabbing each other in the back? Irrelevant. Kind of like your high blood pressure induced banter. ;)

But, about the Dems overall downfall, like I said a few posts above, IF you would read, the Dem party has moved too far to the right lately, so more voters sat out in the last elections. Most Dem politicians either didn't speak up against the war, or were in favor of it.



And the best you can do is claim "They're not my beloved press"??? Hell, you claim the media is biased to Conservatives, even though they themselves admit this to be the opposite of the truth. But still, why do Dems continue to lose elections?

You don't really think they'd come out and say that they're bought both candidates and stood in the way of democracy, do you? Who cares what they claim to be, if they're not getting out what the people should know?


Why does Nader only pull 4% or so of the votes? Does that mean that 96% of Americans are idiots, and only you 4% are the enlightened ones?

Hmmmm...let's see. No press coverage and what could be considered as a lack of funds compared to the Republicrat candidates. Nader just can't just go out and buy elections like the other two parties. 3% with .1% of the election coverage isn't half bad.


Kind of an elitist attitude, no?

I've been told that my vote doesn't count several times by Dems and even Republicans. If that makes me an elitist.

Now back to the kitchen! :p

Good. Make me a sandwich and try not to burn anything down. :D

John Ashcroft
02-24-2004, 08:08 AM
I'll try not to.

So, who's the last "true leftist" politician to achieve federal level? Who's the last one to be President? I'm thinking Carter. How'd his admin go? And what happened to that second term?