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Steve Savicki
03-18-2005, 02:30 PM
http://reports.tbo.com/reports/schiavo/

"Terri Schiavo suffered heart failure in 1990, when she was 26 years old, lapsing into a persistent vegetative state. For years, Michael Schiavo, her husband, has fought to have the feeding tube keeping his wife alive, removed. He says his wife told him she would not want to live like this. Schiavo's parents want their daughter to remain alive. The battle has involved the courts, and now the Florida Legislature and Gov. Jeb Bush."


What kind of husband wants the feeding tube of even his ex-wife to be removed? Sure, he's engaged to another woman, but what does he have to gain from all this?

And what do you think Jebba the Butt is going to do when it gets to his level?

Steve Savicki
03-18-2005, 02:34 PM
OMG - I may take back what I said. Is Jeb actually trying to save human life?

Satan
03-18-2005, 03:01 PM
Guess it all depends on what you call "life". A permanent vegetative state with no hope of recovery really isn't much of a life.

Figs
03-18-2005, 03:11 PM
I'm Buck and I'm here to fuck.

BigBadBrian
03-18-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Satan
Guess it all depends on what you call "life". A permanent vegetative state with no hope of recovery really isn't much of a life.

Kinda like that "mass of tissue" in a woman's body prior to birth, huh? :rolleyes:

Guitar Shark
03-18-2005, 05:18 PM
Actually, I agree with FORD on this one. The right to die is something that should not be politicized. What Congress is doing right now is shameful.

BigBadBrian
03-18-2005, 05:21 PM
Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Actually, I agree with FORD on this one. The right to die is something that should not be politicized. What Congress is doing right now is shameful.


FORD?

I'm not aware he posted in this thread yet. ;) :D

ELVIS
03-18-2005, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Satan
Guess it all depends on what you call "life". A permanent vegetative state with no hope of recovery really isn't much of a life.

Maybe not to you...

Guitar Shark
03-18-2005, 05:23 PM
Oops, sorry, can't keep all his personalities straight sometimes.

Sarge
03-18-2005, 05:23 PM
She is basically brain dead...

Who the fuck would want to live like that?
I am glad they removed the tube.

ELVIS
03-18-2005, 05:26 PM
I don't think she was brain dead...

ELVIS
03-18-2005, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Guitar Shark
The right to die is something that should not be politicized.

What about the right to live ??

Satan
03-18-2005, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Kinda like that "mass of tissue" in a woman's body prior to birth, huh? :rolleyes:

No, quite the opposite. But I wouldn't expect a defender of terrorists like yourself to know the difference.

Warham
03-18-2005, 05:41 PM
Satan, you of all people should be defending terrorists.

But alas, I'm not talking to his Evilness, I'm talking to FORD.

Satan
03-18-2005, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
What about the right to live ??

How can someone who works in the medical field ignore the facts of the case. Her doctors say she has no chance of recovery. She's been a vegetable for 15 years. How do you call that "life"?

Look, I'm the Devil. Human suffering, at least in the eternal sense, is my job. But I would never sentence a human being to this kind of fate on earth.

If there is a soul in that empty shell of a body, wouldn't it be better to free that soul from an earthly prison?

Warham
03-18-2005, 05:46 PM
What a weak Satan impersonation.

He probably would enjoy watching her rot on that bed for the rest of her life.

Satan
03-18-2005, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Satan, you of all people should be defending terrorists.


I don't care for terrorists. I don't believe in targeting civilians. Give me good old fashioned proper war over that anytime.

And I say that as veteran of the First War.

Satan
03-18-2005, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Warham
What a weak Satan impersonation.

He probably would enjoy watching her rot on that bed for the rest of her life.

What would be the purpose in that? See that's the problem in believing propaganda.

The Devil hates stagnation and uselessness. And there's nothing more useless and stagnant than a hollow corpse impersonating a human being, because selfish mortals refuse to accept reality.

Warham
03-18-2005, 05:50 PM
Weak!

ELVIS
03-18-2005, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Satan
Her doctors say she has no chance of recovery.

That's totally false...

Warham
03-18-2005, 05:50 PM
Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

Satan loves people who stagnate all the time.

Satan
03-18-2005, 05:54 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Idle hands are the devil's workshop.

Satan loves people who stagnate all the time.

More propaganda. Why would you believe a book written by my competition to tell you about me?

ELVIS
03-18-2005, 05:56 PM
Because it's the truth ??

Warham
03-18-2005, 05:56 PM
I'd hardly call it competition.

Besides, that other book was written by his creator and Father.

Satan
03-18-2005, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
That's totally false...
How do you figure that?

Cathedral
03-18-2005, 06:05 PM
Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex has disintigrated, therefore there is no more Terri Schiavo and there will not be a Terri Schiavo in the future.

The court has proven twice that evidence exists that she was against being kept alive all these years, it just was not in writing.
There is not a person on this planet who has ANY right to stand in the way of her husband doing what he feels he has to do in her best interest and according to her own wishes.
Her right to die has been denied thus far and that has to stop immediately.

What Congress has tried to do, and what has actually been done to this woman twice already is disgusting and offends me to the core of my being.
If you are a television watcher and all the info you have about this came from the news, you are very much drawn to the wrong conclusion and probably call her husband a murderer...That is an incorrect conclusion.
She must be allowed to die with dignity with no further medical intervention, anything less is a violation of her civil rights.

Washington has no damn business sticking their nose in this situation at all.
Place yourselves in Michael Schiavo's position and really think about it.
and then do some research on this case all the way back to 1990, then and only then should you make a judgement and even then, it's nobodies business but those personally involved.

Let her go and be with God where she belongs and will NOT be in a vegetative state.
Keeping her here any longer does nothing but serve a political agenda and the agendas of people who simply cannot let her go, that is selfish in my opinion.
The husband is the guardian, and he is the only one who has the right to make this decision, and i agree with him 110%.

Warham
03-18-2005, 06:14 PM
I agree that the Congress shouldn't be involved in this. It's a state matter, as long as they follow the letter of the law.

BigBadBrian
03-18-2005, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Warham

But alas, I'm not talking to his Evilness, I'm talking to FORD.

Same thing. :gulp:

Little_Skittles
03-18-2005, 06:45 PM
Letting her starve to death? NOT humane. She can still feel pain and suffering i think. Plus look at history miracles happen.

Guitar Shark
03-18-2005, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex has disintigrated, therefore there is no more Terri Schiavo and there will not be a Terri Schiavo in the future.

The court has proven twice that evidence exists that she was against being kept alive all these years, it just was not in writing.
There is not a person on this planet who has ANY right to stand in the way of her husband doing what he feels he has to do in her best interest and according to her own wishes.
Her right to die has been denied thus far and that has to stop immediately.

What Congress has tried to do, and what has actually been done to this woman twice already is disgusting and offends me to the core of my being.
If you are a television watcher and all the info you have about this came from the news, you are very much drawn to the wrong conclusion and probably call her husband a murderer...That is an incorrect conclusion.
She must be allowed to die with dignity with no further medical intervention, anything less is a violation of her civil rights.

Washington has no damn business sticking their nose in this situation at all.
Place yourselves in Michael Schiavo's position and really think about it.
and then do some research on this case all the way back to 1990, then and only then should you make a judgement and even then, it's nobodies business but those personally involved.

Let her go and be with God where she belongs and will NOT be in a vegetative state.
Keeping her here any longer does nothing but serve a political agenda and the agendas of people who simply cannot let her go, that is selfish in my opinion.
The husband is the guardian, and he is the only one who has the right to make this decision, and i agree with him 110%.

Most excellent post Cat.

academic punk
03-18-2005, 06:52 PM
I'm actually confused by this: she's awake and conscious. She has the brain capacity of an 11 month old. Why is she not able to swallow food? It's not like this is a DNR issue. Can she be fed? Why is the feeding tube necessary.

From a legal standpoint, it's a question of "Do we give this person a pacemaker?" And of course the answer is yes.

What is really interesting wiht this is that as much as the right to life crew is clamoring on this one, Christian Scientists are aghast that she was ever given a feeding tube in the first place.

This is something other than a DNR situation. If it were me, if I were unconscious and on life-support, Kill me. Let me go. But this is someone who is *NOT* brain-dead. She recognizes her family, she conveys emotion, she is aware and alert, albeit on a horrifyingly basic level. Still, I'm not clear if or how they're *EXACTLY* killing her by removing the feeding tube if other means of nutrition and sustenance are available.

BigBadBrian
03-18-2005, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Most excellent post Cat.

Cat forgot that the greedy bastard husband stands to get several hundred grand when the lady finally passes. Am I wrong here?

He probably would have no interest any longer if no $$$$ were tied to the case. Let's not forget the cute little bimbo tied to his arm we've all seen in the press conferences.

I personally have no problem with DNR's (Do Not Resuscitate) and such orders to let nature take its course for terminally ill people, but GREED still seems to be at the root of this case.

Guitar Shark
03-18-2005, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Cat forgot that the greedy bastard husband stands to get several hundred grand when the lady finally passes. Am I wrong here?

He probably would have no interest any longer if no $$$$ were tied to the case. Let's not forget the cute little bimbo tied to his arm we've all seen in the press conferences.

I personally have no problem with DNR's (Do Not Resuscitate) and such orders to let nature take its course for terminally ill people, but GREED still seems to be at the root of this case.

I have no idea whether the husband will receive money or not, but that's irrelevant in my opinion. Where would the money come from? I know they won a malpractice case; is that the source? If so, I would say that he deserves the money. In any event, presumably the parents had a right to present evidence of this conflict of interest at trial and they lost. Who's to say what his true motivations are. I think it sucks to prevent him from moving on with his life just so that a vegetable is kept "alive" by a feeding tube.

Little_Skittles
03-18-2005, 08:18 PM
Well we are judged..........lets leave it up to the high power the almighty.

Cathedral
03-18-2005, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Cat forgot that the greedy bastard husband stands to get several hundred grand when the lady finally passes. Am I wrong here?

He probably would have no interest any longer if no $$$$ were tied to the case. Let's not forget the cute little bimbo tied to his arm we've all seen in the press conferences.

I personally have no problem with DNR's (Do Not Resuscitate) and such orders to let nature take its course for terminally ill people, but GREED still seems to be at the root of this case.

Take a trip back through my initial post, I think you missed it because i covered this with facts.
it's on page one.

I'll tell you what i see in this thread and in society in general.
a lot of people making a lot of noise speaking of things they know little about.

No offense to anyone, but a drink of mind your own business would suffice, or at least if your going to have a firm opinion, learn the whole story and forget about how the media has spun it.
Why have guardians if the country and the government is going to steam roll your rights and responsibilities?

DLR'sCock
03-18-2005, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex has disintigrated, therefore there is no more Terri Schiavo and there will not be a Terri Schiavo in the future.

The court has proven twice that evidence exists that she was against being kept alive all these years, it just was not in writing.
There is not a person on this planet who has ANY right to stand in the way of her husband doing what he feels he has to do in her best interest and according to her own wishes.
Her right to die has been denied thus far and that has to stop immediately.

What Congress has tried to do, and what has actually been done to this woman twice already is disgusting and offends me to the core of my being.
If you are a television watcher and all the info you have about this came from the news, you are very much drawn to the wrong conclusion and probably call her husband a murderer...That is an incorrect conclusion.
She must be allowed to die with dignity with no further medical intervention, anything less is a violation of her civil rights.

Washington has no damn business sticking their nose in this situation at all.
Place yourselves in Michael Schiavo's position and really think about it.
and then do some research on this case all the way back to 1990, then and only then should you make a judgement and even then, it's nobodies business but those personally involved.

Let her go and be with God where she belongs and will NOT be in a vegetative state.
Keeping her here any longer does nothing but serve a political agenda and the agendas of people who simply cannot let her go, that is selfish in my opinion.
The husband is the guardian, and he is the only one who has the right to make this decision, and i agree with him 110%.


Excellent post!

UNCLAX72
03-18-2005, 09:18 PM
the only thing she has to live for is her family.
you can see when her parents enter the room and how shes fights herself so she can sit up for them and that she still has that little spark that doesn't make her as a complete vegetable
she can still put in the effort that she wants to live and what the fuck is with her husband?
He fights x number of years ago for a malpratice suit and to get a shit load of money to pay for her medical care and support and then he turns and wants her dead..................what a slimy fuck

Cathedral
03-18-2005, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
Take a trip back through my initial post, I think you missed it because i covered this with facts.
it's on page one.

I'll tell you what i see in this thread and in society in general.
a lot of people making a lot of noise speaking of things they know little about.

No offense to anyone, but a drink of mind your own business would suffice, or at least if your going to have a firm opinion, learn the whole story and forget about how the media has spun it.
Why have guardians if the country and the government is going to steam roll your rights and responsibilities?

My bad, BBB, I just reviewed my post and apparently my thoguths didn't make it to the keys.

Mr. Schiavo was offered $10 Million from an unknown source to hand guardianship over to her parents, but their plans were to have her limbs removed in order to avoid medical complications and just keep her body alive.
I call that sick and demented.

A week ago he was offered $1 Million from a guy, i forget his name, but he placed that million in an account and had Gloria Alred (Amber Fry's Attorney) over see the transaction if he would sign guardianship over to her parents.

Both offers were rejected by Mr. Schiavo.

The logic that a man would turn down Millions in order to get a few hundred thousand just doesn't make sense.

He would face much less scrutiny to take that money as opposed to removing the tube, he's already been labeled a murderer, right?

That shows me that he is fighting for something bigger than himself, and it should prove to everyone that he is standing up for her rights and wishes.

Would you cut your losses and take the money or would you fight for your wifes civil rights and what she told you to your face she wanted?

Would you want Congress sticking their nose in and telling you what you were going to do in that case?

I am my wifes guardian, and i find that to be intrusive and a violation of my right's and responsibilites that i accepted the day i married her.
And i would trade places with her in a heartbeat, and i would want her to make the same decision for me if i couldn't.

Today is the day i say FUCK the government and every damn thing they stand for because this shit they are doing by backing the parents who by law have no right's where she is concerned, it's fucking wrong and they all should be sent packing.

I'd rather be dead than to have people say that being in Terri's condition is living, it most certainly is not living.

Nickdfresh
03-19-2005, 01:20 AM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Kinda like that "mass of tissue" in a woman's body prior to birth, huh? :rolleyes:

Even the ardent supporters of abortion rights know that a fetus has the potential to become sentient. Terry Schiavo's brain capacity is basically nothing more than a basic autonomic response system! Her parents need to let go and to stop pretending in their little selfish world that someday she'll improve. Her soul is trapped in a stasis, if that is not hell, I don't know what is!

Nickdfresh
03-19-2005, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by ELVIS
That's totally false...

Really?? Did they teach you in nursing school that the brain could regenerate itself?? I doubt it!

Satan
03-19-2005, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by UNCLAX72
the only thing she has to live for is her family.
you can see when her parents enter the room and how shes fights herself so she can sit up for them and that she still has that little spark that doesn't make her as a complete vegetable


And you know this how, exactly?

Because FAUX News and that fucking moronic shithead Sean Hannity said so?

Like FORD said, manadatory IQ tests.....

Satan
03-19-2005, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Even the ardent supporters of abortion rights know that a fetus has the potential to become sentient. Terry Schiavo's brain capacity is basically nothing more than a basic autonomic response system! Her parents need to let go and to stop pretending in their little selfish world that someday she'll improve. Her soul is trapped in a stasis, if that is not hell, I don't know what is!

I can’t remember anything
Can’t tell if this is true or dream
Deep down inside I feel to scream
This terrible silence stops me

Now that the war is through with me
I’m waking up I can not see
That there is not much left of me
Nothing is real but pain now

Hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please god,wake me

Back in the womb it’s much too real
In pumps life that I must feel
But can’t look forward to reveal
Look to the time when I’ll live

Fed through the tube that sticks in me
Just like a wartime novelty
Tied to machines that make me be
Cut this life off from me

Hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please god,wake me
Now the world is gone I’m just one
Oh god,help me hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please God help me

Darkness imprisoning me
All that I see
Absolute horror
I cannot live
I cannot die
Trapped in myself
Body my holding cell

Landmine has taken my sight
Taken my speech
Taken my hearing
Taken my arms
Taken my legs
Taken my soul
Left me with life in hell

Cathedral
03-19-2005, 02:18 AM
Y'all better make damn sure you have a will, or Big Brother will make you suffer for it.
And i'd like to see this bill cause i bet there are loop holes that will give them an edge over a that will also.

This isn't about Terri Schiavo anymore, it's about the freedom to choose whats best for your family, or should i say "robbing" america of that freedom.
Oh the bleeding hearts can scream now, they can lob insults and mis-characterizations at the womans husband, but wait until it's their turn to die, ya better follow the rules or your fucked.

By the way, there is no money left from the malpractice suit, so Michael Schiavo won't get a dime when she dies.

I feel for the man, cause the people have basically crucified him and stomped all over his right's.
But as Tom Delay said right out in the open "I don't care what the husband thinks".
That mother fucker needs to be recalled and sent the fuck home.
And if they stick that tube back into that woman........I hope they all rot in hell.

I'm telling you all, write a damn will or your loved ones will have a battle on their hands, and pray this bill doesn't pass unless you are sure of what it says.
Michael Schiavo already knows what it says, Tom Delay told him what it says.

Pardon me, but i am more than pissed off at what is happening here.

Nickdfresh
03-19-2005, 02:23 AM
How many kids that lack health insurance could the money, that is used to keep her on life support, help or even save?

Nickdfresh
03-19-2005, 02:24 AM
Originally posted by Satan
I can�t remember anything
Can�t tell if this is true or dream
Deep down inside I feel to scream
This terrible silence stops me

Now that the war is through with me
I�m waking up I can not see
That there is not much left of me
Nothing is real but pain now

Hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please god,wake me

Back in the womb it�s much too real
In pumps life that I must feel
But can�t look forward to reveal
Look to the time when I�ll live

Fed through the tube that sticks in me
Just like a wartime novelty
Tied to machines that make me be
Cut this life off from me

Hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please god,wake me
Now the world is gone I�m just one
Oh god,help me hold my breath as I wish for death
Oh please God help me

Darkness imprisoning me
All that I see
Absolute horror
I cannot live
I cannot die
Trapped in myself
Body my holding cell

Landmine has taken my sight
Taken my speech
Taken my hearing
Taken my arms
Taken my legs
Taken my soul
Left me with life in hell

That song always very much upsets me. Being trapped in a prison of a blind and deaf torso? Oh God please kill me indeed!

Cathedral
03-19-2005, 02:48 AM
A few i am sure. trust me, Hospice ain't cheap and i have no clue what type of insurance they have.

academic punk
03-19-2005, 08:00 PM
I'm still wondering what is preventing anyone from feeding her apple sauce now that the feeding tube is removed.

FORD
03-19-2005, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by academic punk
I'm still wondering what is preventing anyone from feeding her apple sauce now that the feeding tube is removed.

I doubt she's even capable of processing that. It's hard to do with a brain that's mostly spinal fluid.

FORD
03-19-2005, 08:44 PM
And might I add how SICKENED I am that Jeb Bush, Tom DeLay, and the other corporatist neocon PIGS are using this poor reanimated corpse shell of a former human being as a vehicle for establishing the BLATANTLY UNCONSTITUTIONAL precedent of Congress overthrowing a legitmate court ruling.

Do I have to spell out what their true objective is here?

academic punk
03-19-2005, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by FORD
I doubt she's even capable of processing that. It's hard to do with a brain that's mostly spinal fluid.


I would think that she would be able to. It's an instinctual thing that even a day old baby can accomplish.

If that is the case, though, then yes I absolutely agree that the poor woman needs to be let out of her misery.

academic punk
03-19-2005, 09:22 PM
SATURDAY, 3/19, 8:21 EST:

Congress has ruled to reinstate the feeding tube while they deliberate on the right-to-die situation. Tom DeLay calls this a "victory".

tomballin
03-19-2005, 09:24 PM
Just my 3 cents, and I greatly respect your opinions Cathedral. You are a great Mod here, imo! Roth On, and keep up the awesome contributions here bro.

----------

Terri Schiavo
http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=442387#post442387

Tomba says…

I disagree with Cathedral, and have followed this case closely for four solid years, due to a non-immediate family member in the same condition as Terri, but not for the same reasons.

Michael Schiavo abused the shit out of that poor women, and contributed to her severe bulimia and mental state that caused her collapse and present condition. He has also been successful in supressing key medical records in this entire matter. There is nothing written or attested that Terri ever said what her fuck head husband claims.

Ultra liberal Florida laws have also given her worthless husband and attorney excessive powers in this matter, they would have in no other State in the U.S. That is why it has become a “test case” for the right to die lobby, and Michael Schiavo’s sick fuck attorney George Felos. If you have not read that sick fuck’s Felos book, read it. This guy is a total lunatic, that get’s his rocks off on watching people die. He needs his Florida Bar Association license permanently suspended, imo.

Yeah, Terri's parents are full of shit also, as there is nothing realistically that can be done for Terri, and them using all their quack physicians to say otherwise has greatly hurt their case and credibility. Also them using that lunatic Randall Terry, for their daughter’s cause, is total bullshit. The guy belongs in prison for 25 years, for his links to doctors and nurses, being killed and injured at several legally operated and regulated abortion clinics.

However, imo, no laws should ever break “blood bonds” in a matter like this, and only her parents are Terri’s blood.

If they got the time and money to take care of their PVS daughter, then give her to them, and send that worthless fuck Michael Schiavo packing. Also YES, in a case like this, she needs Federal protection, like many PVS’s. We might as well deal with the issue now at a Federal level instead of later.

With current medical technology and care, there are PVS’s that have lived over 40 YEARS now in this country, like Terri. This country doesn’t even know how many of these living veg heads are out their, because there is no formal data collection and accounting for these people. To me it’s sick, and many times just doctors scamming money again off these no hope vegs, and their poor family.

Would I want to “live” like Terri. HELL NO, and I agree with Diamond Dave this week on his radio show, let me die and stop taking up space and people’s time.

BUT that is NOT what this case is about, and that is why this whole thing has digressed into a disgusting freak show, that makes me sick every time I have to read or write about this shite. I think people that don’t have a family member that is PVS, or deal directly with PVS’s on a daily basis, need to back the fuck out of this issue, because there is no way they can realistically understand it.

Roth On

Tomba

-----------



Originally posted by Cathedral
Terri Schiavo's cerebral cortex has disintigrated, therefore there is no more Terri Schiavo and there will not be a Terri Schiavo in the future.

The court has proven twice that evidence exists that she was against being kept alive all these years, it just was not in writing. There is not a person on this planet who has ANY right to stand in the way of her husband doing what he feels he has to do in her best interest and according to her own wishes.
Her right to die has been denied thus far and that has to stop immediately.

What Congress has tried to do, and what has actually been done to this woman twice already is disgusting and offends me to the core of my being. If you are a television watcher and all the info you have about this came from the news, you are very much drawn to the wrong conclusion and probably call her husband a murderer...That is an incorrect conclusion. She must be allowed to die with dignity with no further medical intervention, anything less is a violation of her civil rights.

Washington has no damn business sticking their nose in this situation at all. Place yourselves in Michael Schiavo's position and really think about it. and then do some research on this case all the way back to 1990, then and only then should you make a judgement and even then, it's nobodies business but those personally involved.

Let her go and be with God where she belongs and will NOT be in a vegetative state. Keeping her here any longer does nothing but serve a political agenda and the agendas of people who simply cannot let her go, that is selfish in my opinion. The husband is the guardian, and he is the only one who has the right to make this decision, and i agree with him 110%.

academic punk
03-19-2005, 09:28 PM
I'M LOST:

THE SUPREME COURT UPHELD THE LOWER COURT'S DECISION TO REMOVE THE FEEDING TUBE.

HOW IS IT CONGRESS'S PROVINCE TO REVERSE THAT???

FORD
03-19-2005, 10:02 PM
Originally posted by tomballin

However, imo, no laws should ever break “blood bonds” in a matter like this, and only her parents are Terri’s blood.



Legally, that does not matter. If someone is married, their spouse becomes their next of kin for all legal purposes. Even the Bible which these right wing congressmen claim as their basis for authority agrees with this. Scripture says that in marriage, you literally leave your family and become one flesh with another person.

The courts who have heard this case repeatedly over the last 15 years have consistently upheld that fact, siding with her husband. What the Busheep in Congress are attempting is blatantly unconstitutional, and they aren't doing it because of Terry Schiavo. Don't kid yourself. These fuckers are trying to establish a precedent to overthrow ANY court ruling they don't like.

Draw your own conclusions where that can lead.

Warham
03-19-2005, 10:19 PM
Abortion getting overturned?

I can't wait!

:D

Cathedral
03-19-2005, 10:21 PM
Originally posted by academic punk
I'M LOST:

THE SUPREME COURT UPHELD THE LOWER COURT'S DECISION TO REMOVE THE FEEDING TUBE.

HOW IS IT CONGRESS'S PROVINCE TO REVERSE THAT???


It isn't, they just abused their power by over ruling a legal document called a DPOA (Durable Power of Attorney) which has the husband listed as the Representative.
They just trampled all over the right's of Terri and her husband in support of the family which has no legal right's at all in this situation.

The key word in my last sentence is "legal".

The only part of this that gives me pause is the fact that she wasn't able to designate the Representative herself.

Up until Congress got involved, it is clearly stated that the Representative of the POA has all right's to make the decision of ending life support.

She falls under article #4 in the "Additional Authorities Of Agent" (Agent means Representative)

And it states:
The Agent is Authorized in "THE WITHDRAWL OF NUTRITION AND HYDRATION WHEN IN A PERMANENTLY UNCONSCIOUS OR VEGETATIVE STATE".

I have seen nothing that has proved to me that he abused her other than the family speculating that he did.
They have Doctors "assuming" there was trauma involved, but what the family fails to add is that the doctors also stated in that diagnosis that it head trauma could have been caused by impact with something when she collapsed 15 years ago.

AP, if you put food in her mouth she cannot chew it. if it were liquified, because she has no motor skills to swallow anything, she would choke to death.

Tom Delay and everyone involved with putting that tube back in her stomach should be charged with obstruction and any other crime that can be applied, and then thrown in jail.

What they are doing is wrong, completely wrong, and i won't sit silent while they steam roll over everyone, including myself, that is dealing with similar situations.
So many people looking for a cause to support have jumped on this bandwagon when they don't have a fucking clue what it is like to be submerged in this kind of thing every day.

I intend to raise hell in my state targeting those that had a part in this for political gain. If i have my way they will all be out of a job before i'm done.

I hope they all rot in hell for the physical trauma they keep subjecting Terri to by removing and then replacing the feeding tube.

If there is truly a God in heaven he will see to it that she is allowed to die with dignity so everyone can begin the healing process that they have ignored for 15 years.
I see both sides of the issue here. I see the parents point of view as well as the husbands point of view, but it is the husband with the "legal right's". in my opinion they all believe they are right, but they need to really think about Terri and how she was when she was alive, they need to ask themselves honestly...would she want to live like this?
Her Cerebral Cortex is destroyed, Terri is not there anymore and all they are doing is prolonging the inevitable.

Cathedral
03-19-2005, 10:27 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Legally, that does not matter. If someone is married, their spouse becomes their next of kin for all legal purposes. Even the Bible which these right wing congressmen claim as their basis for authority agrees with this. Scripture says that in marriage, you literally leave your family and become one flesh with another person.

The courts who have heard this case repeatedly over the last 15 years have consistently upheld that fact, siding with her husband. What the Busheep in Congress are attempting is blatantly unconstitutional, and they aren't doing it because of Terry Schiavo. Don't kid yourself. These fuckers are trying to establish a precedent to overthrow ANY court ruling they don't like.

Draw your own conclusions where that can lead.

You are 1000% correct on this one. And that proves to me that hell has indeed frozen over, bro.

Warham
03-19-2005, 10:27 PM
The only problem I have with it is starving someone to death, when they are lingering around for a week or two.

I'm not sure if that is breaking the Eighth Amendment or not.

Cathedral
03-19-2005, 10:40 PM
That's just it, Warham, removing the tube is not starving her to death because the body will not react to it as starvation.
The part of the brain that controls that is destroyed.

The media and those who seriously have no clue what the hell is really going on with her are the one's that have everyone calling it starvation.

What would happen is she would dehydrate long before she starved anyway. at that point she slips into a coma and the body shuts down after a few days to a week.

It is actually quite peaceful for someone in her condition, regardless of what is said on television.

And the bottom line here is that it is the husbands right and responsibility to make this call no matter what people say or think about him, or at least it was his right.

Warham
03-19-2005, 10:46 PM
This is a good example of why somebody should have a will made out as soon as they legally can.

Cathedral
03-19-2005, 11:19 PM
All you need to do is find the documents for your state online, fill it out, go to a notery and sign it in front of them so they can stamp it.
If you have a large estate with outstanding debts/mortgages etc. you will most likely want a lawyers assistance.

And then there is a living will, which is different than the Last Will.

The living will goes into effect the moment you are incapacitated and you have all you instructions written out there for the doctors to follow.

The Last Will goes into effect the moment you die and determines who and how your estate is to be settled.

It really isn't that difficult to do, and if you have children it is the most important thing you can do as a parent.
The hardest part for me was to come face to face with my own mortality, but you'll feel much better about things after you have secured everything for your families future, trust me, it's a huge relief knowing they'll be taken care of.

Oh, and there are plenty of resources to get these forms for free. don't fall for the sites that require you to purchase them.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 12:00 AM
I'm not a Republican or voted for Bushie, but my money says Michael Schiavo and his attorney George "fucked in the head" Felo's, just lost again Bush and Junk Yard Dog, Tom "needs to be in prison" DeLay.

Time will tell. - Tomba


Mar 19, 2005 9:50 pm EST

Bush Returning to Washington Over Schiavo
-------------------------------------------------------
Bush Changing Schedule to Return to Washington to Sign Emergency Legislation on Schiavo Case
By JENNIFER LOVEN Associated Press Writer

CRAWFORD, Texas - President Bush is changing his schedule to return to the White House on Sunday to be in place to sign emergency legislation that would shift the case of a brain-damaged Florida woman to federal courts, the White House said Saturday.

"Everyone recognizes that time is important here," White House press secretary Scott McClellan said. "This is about defending life."

After Terri Schiavo's feeding tube was removed on Friday, members of Congress worked out a deal to pass legislation to allow federal courts to decide the 41-year-old woman's fate and in the hopes of supporters of the woman's parents restore the tube that was keeping her alive.

The House and Senate hoped to act on the legislation Sunday, so Bush decided he needed to be in Washington so he could immediately sign the bill, McClellan said. "The president intends to sign legislation as quickly as possible once it is passed," McClellan said.

During previous travels, Bush has had legislation flown to him overnight by military plane for his signature. But in this case, McClellan said that the fact that a woman's life is at stake made it necessary for him to travel to the bill. "Terri Schiavo's feeding tube has been removed and we stand with … all those who are working to defend her life," he said.

McClellan said that Bush had not talked with any members of Congress Saturday about the case, but was kept apprised by his staff. He dismissed any suggestion that there were any political considerations at work, either in the quick and aggressive congressional action or the president's hurried return to the White House.

FORD
03-20-2005, 12:06 AM
This is even less the business of the BCE than Iraq was. They need to stay the fuck out of it. :mad:

Warham
03-20-2005, 12:08 AM
Too late.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 12:18 AM
A lot of great points here, that I respect, but might I add:

If Terri's Schiavo's parents ever get their hands on the sealed court and accounting documents, they will probably easily be able to send Michael Schiavo to jail, according to experts close to the case, and MS know it. That is why he wants his wife dead, and this mess to go away.

MS blew all her court awarded money on legal fees trying to kill her, against the covenants of the awards, and even the insurance company on the Physician's malpractice award he got, has been unable to get their hands on the records, and bring suit, because of the ignorant and corrupt Probate Judge over the case, and Florida’s ultra liberal privacy laws. You know those ultra liberal privacy laws that protected all those 9/11 WTC terrorists living in Florida, before they brought those two towers down.

Courts are not about right and wrong any longer, they are about who has the most money to put on a good show, ask O.J. Simpson, also a Florida resident.

Michael Schiavo used Terri's million bucks for the legal show, not taking care of her. That is why she is illegally in a hospice, and the State of Florida is picking up the tab. A Hospice, that MS’s fucked in the head attorney, George Felos was on the Board of Directors, and the Probate Judge has had ties.

This case stop being about Terri Schiavo, years ago. That's why it's a circus now that only dirty politicians will mess with.

Many legal experts from across the Country have said that if this case was not being heard in Florida, the outcome would be very different. Like I said you have to understand the details of this highly complex case. Michael Schiavo & George Felos are stacking several ultra liberal Florida laws together to win this case, and they could not do it in ANY other State in the U.S. PERIOD.

But like I stated earlier, if her parents lose her this time, they only have themselves to blame. Her father is a bumble fuck idiot, that has made a shame of this case.

That is why this whole family feud circus, makes me sick

Just my 3 cents

Roth On

tomballin
03-20-2005, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by FORD
This is even less the business of the BCE than Iraq was. They need to stay the fuck out of it. :mad:

Well on that subject.......

People that don't have a PVS member in their family, need to stay the fuck out of this issue, because they cannot understand it from the outside looking in.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 12:30 AM
Originally posted by Warham
Too late.


Terri has surprised everyone to date, in her ability to stay alive. I have never seen anything like it .

PVS's have very low metabolic levels, so they can live a lot longer without food and liquids than a normal person, like up to two weeks, but still this lady's resilience is something else.

Guess we will see how long she last's this time, if this thing even goes past Monday-Tuesday, before they put a feeding tube back in her, which would surprise me.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 12:47 AM
Check out Michael Schaivo attorney, George S. Felos.

http://i154.exs.cx/img154/5623/georgesfelos1dg.jpg

This flake belongs in a mental ward, not practicing law. Read this bizzare stuff he says in his book, "Litigation as Spiritual Practice" It's some of the craziest shite I have ever read.

http://www.bluedolphinpublishing.com/Felos.htm

"Such a deep, dark, silent blue. I stared as far into her eyes as I could, hoping to sense some glimmer of understanding, some hint of awareness. The deeper I dove, the darker became the blue, until the blue became the black of some bottomless lake. "Mrs. Browning, do you want to die ... do you want to die?" I nearly shouted as I continued to peer into her pools of strikingly beautiful but incognizant blue. It felt so eerie. Her eyes were wide open and crystal clear, but instead of the warmth of lucidity, they burned with the ice of expressionlessness."

Litigation as Spiritual Practice describes the excitement and drama of the courtroom, and the ecstasy and anguish of spiritual evolution in a combative environment. If the seemingly barren and war-strewn field of litigation can be the playground where spirit dances, it can revel anywhere.

-----------

His book at:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1577331044/bookpriceline-20/ref/104-3453897-8386335

LOL, looks like the FreeRepublic.com fascists has been bagging Amazon.com's reader reviews again on Felo's book.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 01:03 AM
Great to have an M.D. here at the Army.

You every seen one of these take place. If you did, you would not make these statements.

Only the most severe PVS's cannot feel it or suffer, and Terri is not in that category, as all her internal vital and self-regulatory functions are intact. That's what makes this situation so damn difficult. Her attending physician will dope her up to reduce the pain and suffering.

It's "standard procedure".



Originally posted by Cathedral
That's just it, Warham, removing the tube is not starving her to death because the body will not react to it as starvation.
The part of the brain that controls that is destroyed.

The media and those who seriously have no clue what the hell is really going on with her are the one's that have everyone calling it starvation.

What would happen is she would dehydrate long before she starved anyway. at that point she slips into a coma and the body shuts down after a few days to a week.

It is actually quite peaceful for someone in her condition, regardless of what is said on television.

And the bottom line here is that it is the husbands right and responsibility to make this call no matter what people say or think about him, or at least it was his right.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 01:07 AM
Question:

If it’s not right for the Bush Administration and the Federal government to step in on this 3 ring Schiavo family feud circus, I guess you must have been a Clinton Admin supportor and it was Ok, for that Fed Swat team to raid that Miami, Florida house, capture Elian Gonzales at gunpoint, and ship that kid back to Cuba, against U.S. Laws.

I mean which side of the political barn are we going to sit on here?

Last post on this subject. Be well

Tomba



Originally posted by FORD
The courts who have heard this case repeatedly over the last 15 years have consistently upheld that fact, siding with her husband. What the Busheep in Congress are attempting is blatantly unconstitutional, and they aren't doing it because of Terry Schiavo. Don't kid yourself. These fuckers are trying to establish a precedent to overthrow ANY court ruling they don't like.

Draw your own conclusions where that can lead.

Sarge
03-20-2005, 01:27 AM
Tomballin, I have read your posts and I think you are fooling yourself.

First, they do have a handle on where Terri's money went...
It is listed on her website terrisfight.org
Most of it went to legal fees.

Terri has not spoke 1 word.. not one word since her accident.
They even had an electrical device implanted into her brain against the advice of the surgeons doing the surgery (they said it wouldn't do her any good),, and it didn't.

There isn't anything there to rehabilitate.
She has never shown any concious brain activity.

I think it's a great move to remove the feeding tube.
I am sure if she could have saw her future she would have wanted it removed as well.

Her husband might be a prick, but her parents are just as fucked up.
This is more of a legal wrangle between these 2 parties than it is a right to die issue.

Let the woman go.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 02:12 AM
Like I said it's not about Terri any longer, and a lot of that stuff on here parents website, terrisfight.org is bullshit.

However on the money situation, it's not and it was illegal for Michael Schiavo to use Terri's $650,000 rehab money on legal fees, to gun down her parents in the courtroom. That, among other matters, is what has supercharged this whole damn issue, and why now the Country is wasting resources on this one person.

It looks like the polydics in D.C. are passing a bill targeted specifically at her, like what Florida did, which is more bullshit, and will never hold up in the courts. Although D.C. has passed previous individually targeted laws, and they held up, but not like this one.

The whole problem is Florida's banana Republic laws, and a husband and attorney, and even the Judge, that know they are in a shit load of problems, if Terri's records ever get unsealed.

Bottom line, your right, and there is no "right decisions" here any longer, and the whole thing is a fricking train wreak.

Roth On



Originally posted by Sarge
Tomballin, I have read your posts and I think you are fooling yourself.

First, they do have a handle on where Terri's money went...
It is listed on her website terrisfight.org
Most of it went to legal fees.

Terri has not spoke 1 word.. not one word since her accident.
They even had an electrical device implanted into her brain against the advice of the surgeons doing the surgery (they said it wouldn't do her any good),, and it didn't.

There isn't anything there to rehabilitate.
She has never shown any concious brain activity.

I think it's a great move to remove the feeding tube.
I am sure if she could have saw her future she would have wanted it removed as well.

Her husband might be a prick, but her parents are just as fucked up.
This is more of a legal wrangle between these 2 parties than it is a right to die issue.

Let the woman go.

rustoffa
03-20-2005, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by tomballin
That, among other matters, is what has supercharged this whole damn issue, and why now the Country is wasting resources on this one person.



I wouldn't really care if it was just a few bags of ringers lactate here and there.

Astronaut food is pretty x-pensive though.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 04:08 AM
Originally posted by rustoffa
I wouldn't really care if it was just a few bags of ringers lactate here and there.

Astronaut food is pretty x-pensive though.

Naw, just keep the costs down by emptying a few pixie stick’s in here solute. She’d probably like the zippy colored sugar.

To me the whole answer here is:

1. Yes, let her go
2. Dispense some Sicilian style justice to her fuckhead husband and his attorney George Felos
3. Get back to what’s important in life, - sex, drugs, and R & R.

Besides, Terri’s sister is really a tasty number. Nice!

Problem solved. This Country has gotten too civilized, imo. Maybe we will get lucky this time around and God will bail everyone out of this horrible mess. But with Tom DeLay involved, God probably will say no thanks, lol.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 05:27 AM
Interesting pull from a just out news article on
Tom "The Hammer" DeLay (R-Houston)

......DeLay, spent the day working the phone, calling members, and even stood on the Senate floor as they met Saturday evening. Dressed in a suit and tie, he appeared before TV cameras to explain why Congress was taking these extraordinary measures for one woman.

"The U.S. Constitution protects life of a human being taken by other human beings needlessly," he said.

DeLay was criticized for some of his strong comments Friday, and toned them down a day later but still took an opportunity to slam Michael Schiavo.

"I don't have a lot of respect for a man who has treated a woman in this way," he said. "What kind of man is he?"..........

---------

Note: The Bush Family Texas Mafia is the most powerful family/cartel in the Country. M. Schiavo and G. Felos, don't stand a fricking chance. DeLay and Co. have the financial muscle to raise millions in Texas, overnight, to bury M. Schiavo.

DeLay and Co, is using the same cartel-group, out of Dallas and Houston, that destroyed both John Kerry's and John McCain's, bid against Dumbass.

Like I said this case hasn't been about Terri for years. It's about stopping Michael Schiavo from getting away scott free with his "criminal" misconduct and intent in this matter, and hiding behind Florida's screwed up and most liberal laws in the U.S. in this matter.

DeLay is a totally corrupt scumbag, but if he can burn Michael Schiavo's and his attorney George Felos at the stake, fuck it, let him go for it.

If someone finally broke it off in M Schiavo's ass, it would go a long way in getting her parents to be more reasonable in all concerns, and settle this disaster, imo


=======

Official R.A. Member Slave’s co-mascot:

Rodney "Why Can't We Just All Get Along?" King

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/4527/rkingx28nn.jpg

DrMaddVibe
03-20-2005, 10:18 AM
Regardless of your party affiliation(I don't see how that would play into this), regardless of your stance on abortion, can we agree that if an individual was to starve a dog in this nation that you would be arrested.

We're talking about a human being. A human that right now cannot speak out for herself. A "loving" husband stated 7 years after her injury that she didn't want to live like this. 2 years after winning lawsuit settlements in which her life expetancy was to be 51 years of age. Flash forward and we see this same man with his common-law wife and mother of his 2 kids stating that Terri is the love of his life and he's carrying out her wishes.

A living will would certinely have removed all doubt to how she believed, but in this case we have one man that's allowed to decide life or death like the "Angel of Death" in Nazi Germany. One man who's actions don't correspond with his words.

I invite you to go to this website and learn for yourselves...

http://www.terrisfight.org/

...pay attention to the timeline. When did her family and Michael split on Terri's care.

Then ask yourselves "What if she would've been able to continue to receive therapy?". This case is in my backyard, it's on every channel radio and tv. Regardless of how you think and feel about religion could you really willingly kill another individual that can't speak out for themselves?

Has humanity reached that low of a level that we can snuff out the life of another like we'd crush an ant on the sidewalk?

Nickdfresh
03-20-2005, 10:26 AM
What about two irrational, sleazy parents that have delusions that their daughter's autonomic response system (reactions to light and motion) is some sort of cognitive ability she cannot not possibly have?! Let her die and end her vegetative stasis and save some resources for those that can be helped!

DrMaddVibe
03-20-2005, 10:29 AM
Because you chose not to read Nick...I'll post it for you...

1990

Feb - Terri Collapses in her home

May - Terri discharged from Humana Hospital in St Petersburg, Florida.

Dec - Terri taken to California for experimental implant


1991

Feb - Terri moved to home with husband.

Jan - Terri moved to Bradenton Mediplex Rehabilitation Center.

Apr - Terri's condition is assessed as improving.

Apr - Terri's husband advised to move her to Gainesville Rehabilitation Center to receive advanced therapy to continue Terri's recovery.

Jul - Terri moved to Sable Palms Nursing Home.


1992

Aug - Terri awarded $250,000 in malpractice settlement.

Nov - Terri awarded $1.4 million in malpractice trial.

Nov - Michael Schiavo awarded $600,000 in malpractice trial.


1993

Feb - Michael Schiavo denies recommended rehabilitation treatment.

Feb - Schiavo and Terri's parents have falling out regarding lack of therapy for Terri.

Feb - Schiavo withholds medical information from Terri's parents.

Feb - Schiavo posts Do not Resuscitate order in Terri's medical chart.

Jun - Schiavo threatens Schindler family with lawsuit.

Aug - Schiavo orders medical staff not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.

Sep - Bob and Mary Schindler petition courts to remove Schiavo as Terri's guardian.

Nov - Schiavo admits in deposition that he knew withholding treatment of infection could result in Terri's death.


1994

Feb - Judge Penick dismisses guardianship suit.

Apr - Terri moved to Palm Gardens Nursing Home.


1995

Sep - Schiavo orders Palm Gardens not to treat Terri for potentially fatal infection.


1996

Jun - Terri's parents obtain court order for access to Terri's medical records.


1997

May - Judge Shames approves Schiavo action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.

Jul - Schiavo's engagement to Jodi Centonze announced.

Aug - Attorney Felos's letter notifying Terri's parents of action to remove Terri's nutrition and hydration.


1998

Jun - Guardian ad Litem appointed by court to investigate Terri's case.

Oct - Schiavo offers to donate Terri's inheritance to charity if family agrees to allow removal of her hydration and nutrition.

Dec - Guardian ad Litem recommends the court not approve Schiavo's petition.


1999

Feb - Attorney George Felos files bias charges against Guardian ad Litem.

Jun - Guardian ad Litem dismissed by the court.


2000

Jan - Judge Greer Conducts Terri’s Feeding Tube Removal Trial.

Feb - Greer Rules to Remove Nutrition Feeding Tube.

Feb – Affidavits filed by 3 doctors state Terri can swallow and is not PVS.

Feb - Greer denies petition to allow Terri swallowing tests.

Apr - Terri Moved from Palm Gardens Nursing Home to Hospice Facility.

Apr - Greer denies motion to return Terri to Palm Garden Nursing home.

Apr - Greer imposes restricted visitor list for Terri.

Jul - Appeal filed with Appellate Court to overturn Greer’s verdict.

Nov - Appellate Court Conducts Oral Arguments.


2001

Jan 25 - The appellate court upholds Judge Greer’s ruling to remove Terri's feeding..

Feb. 8 - Motion for an Appellate Court rehearing or clarification - Denied.

Mar 12 - Schiavo petitions to remove Terri’s feeding immediately.

Mar 23 - Florida Supreme Court denies motion with the to review Terri's case.

Mar 22 - Appellate Court issued a 30 day execution stay.

Mar 29 - Judge Greer moves up feeding removal date to April 20, 2001.

Apr 1 - The Appellate Court denies extending Terri's stay of execution.

Apr 12 - Attorney Anderson files motion disqualify Judge Greer.

Apr 16 - Judge Greer denies disqualification motion.

Apr 18 - The Florida Supreme Court refuses to hear Terri’s case & denies Stay.

Apr 19 - The Federal Court claimed the issue was beyond that court's jurisdiction.

Apr 23 - The US Supreme Court refused to hear Terri’s case.

Apr 24 - Terri Feeding was terminated.

Apr 25 - Schiavo bans Terri brother and sister from visiting Terri.

Apr 25 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) reveals Schiavo lied about Terri’s death wishes.

Apr 26 - Judge Greer refuses to hear new evidence about Schiavo’s lying.

Apr 26 - New evidence compels Civil court Judge Quesada to resume Terri's feeding.

Apr 30 - Schiavo files an emergency motion to have Terri's nutritional feeding stopped.

May 7 - Affidavit filed by Dr. Hammesfahr (neurology) states Terri is not in a PVS.

May 7 - Schiavo charged in the Civil Court with fraud.

May 8 - Schiavo ex girlfriend (Cyndi) refuses to testify for fear of Schiavo.

May 9 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals announces "Oral Arguments Hearing" date.

May 11 - Schiavo motion to negate Judge Quesada's order denied.

Jun 1 - Affidavits by five (5) Doctors were filed stating Terri was not in a PVS.

Jun 1 - Schiavo excused from rendering his deposition.

Jun 18 - Schiavo files an affidavit that Terri is in an irreversible vegetative.

Jun 21 - Chief Judge Demers gave Judge George Greer's Court authority to decide whether Terri should have any new medical evaluation or treatment.

Jun 25 - A three-member panel presided at the Appellate Court hearing.

Jul 11 - The Appellate Court ordered Greer court to conduct evidentiary hearings. The court denied Schiavo's attorneys request to order Terri's feeding stopped.

July 23 - Schiavo filed a motion for Judge Greer to immediately stop Terri's feeding.

Aug 7 - Judge Greer totally ignored or rationalized all the evidence presented to him. Orders Terri's feeding stopped on August 28, 2001.

Aug 10 - Attorney Anderson motion to disqualify Judge Greer denied.

Aug 14 - Greer denies request for Conducting Terri Medical Examinations.

Aug 16 - Attorney Anderson files a Notice of Appeal with the 2nd District Appeal Court.

Aug 17 - Judge Greer grants Terri a stay of execution until October 9, 2001.

Aug 20 - Schiavo files with the 2nd District Appeal Court to overrule Judge Greer stay.

Oct 7 - 2nd District Appeal Court orders Terri to be neurological tested.

Oct 23 - Schiavo files a motion to reverse the Appellate Court neurological tests order.

Nov 1 - The 2nd District Court of Appeals denies Schiavo's motion..

Nov 16 - Terri's medical testing plan will be determined before a mediator.

Dec 19 - Attorneys meet with a mediator in an attempt to agree upon the tests .


2002

Jan 18 - Mediated agreement failed, testing is back Greer’s courtroom to be resolved.

Jan 25 - Attorney Anderson petitioned the court for an evidentiary guardianship hearing.

Jan 29 - Judge Greer approved Schiavo's motion to cancel the evidentiary hearing.

Feb 7 - Schiavo files with the Florida Supreme Court to overturn the Appellate Court's October ruling which spared Terri's life.

Mar 14 - The Florida Supreme Court denied Michael Schiavo’s appeal.

Jun 19 - Schiavo objects to the medical and neurological testing.

Jul 1 - Judge Greer conducted a 3+ hr hearing involving three issues:
1. Schiavo’s Plan to Enroll Terri into a Medicaid Program
2 Termination of Schiavo's Attorney Fees
3. Equal Payment for Terri's Examining Doctors

Jul 10 - Court Hearing again was for the purpose of allowing certain medical tests that were requested to evaluate Terri’s true medical and neurological condition.

Jul 12 - Judge Greer ruled -not-to-pay- Terri’s doctors for their professional fees to examine Terri. Notably, in a previous hearing, Judge Greer -approved- payment for Schiavo’s doctors fees.

Jul 22 - Judge Greer approved three of Terri’s desired neurological tests and rejected a dozen other.

Aug 28 - Judge Greer established the dates for Terri's trial.

Oct 2 - Schiavo files petition to prohibit the media from seeing Terri’s recent neurological examination videotapes or airing the video’s to the public after they have been presented to the court as evidence.

Oct 2 - Schiavo petitioned the court to authorize Terri’s cremation.

Oct 11-22 Terri’s trial

Nov15 - Judge Greer conducted a hearing in response to a motion Attorney Anderson filed requesting time to investigate recent evidence suggesting Terri’s heart failure may have been caused by physical abuse.

Nov 22 - Greer orders Terri’s starvation death to begin on Jan 3, 2003.

Dec 9 - Attorney Anderson filed a ‘Notice of Appeal’ to the 2nd District Appellate Court.

Dec 9- Attorney Anderson filed a motion with Judge Greer to ‘stay’ the January 3rd feeding termination date.

Dec 10 - Schiavo filed a motion with Judge Greer to strike attorney Anderson’s motion to ‘stay,’ requesting a court hearing to argue his objection.

Dec 13 - Judge Greer acquiesced to Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to conduct a hearing, which resulted in a ‘stay’ being granted, pending appellate resolution.

Dec 18 - Schiavo filed a motion with the 2nd District Appellate Court to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13th order.

Dec 23 - The 2nd Appellate Court denied Michael Schiavo’s attorney motion to overturn Judge Greer’s December 13, 2002 ‘stay’ order. Furthermore, the Appellate Court established filing dates and scheduled Appellate oral arguments to take place on April 4, 2003.


2003

Guardian Removal Petition Still Pending…
On November 15, 2002, attorney Anderson filed a petition with Judge Greer to remove Michael Schiavo as Terri’s legal guardian. The petition included a declaration of Adversary Proceedings, charging that Michael Schiavo violated a dozen or more specific Florida Statutes while serving in his capacity as Terri’s legal guardian.

Apr - Appellate Court Hearing.

Jun - Appellate Court Upholds Greer.

Jul - Appellate Court Denies Court Review and Stay.

Jul - Appellate Court grants 30 day stay.

Aug - Terri hospitalized under mysterious conditions, denied visits from her priest.

Sep - Emergency hearing to allow visitation and obtain current medical information.

Sep - Michael Schiavo ordered by court to give discharge summary to Terri's parents.

Sep - Judge Greer scheduled October 15, 2003 for the removal of Terri's sustenance.

Oct - 15 Terri's sustenance removed at Hospice Woodside in Pinellas Park, FL.

Oct - 20 Florida Legislature and Senate meet in special session Terri's bill is introduced.

Oct - 21 Terri's bill approved, signed into law. Governor Bush issues executive orderr.

Oct - 23 Michael Schiavo announces plans to sue Governor Bush and challenge Terri's Law as unconstitutional.

Oct - Dr. Jay Wolfson of Tampa, Florida assigned as independent Guardian ad Litem.

Nov - New Guardianship hearing in Sixth Circuit court.

Nov - Disability advocacy groups file Amicus Brief.

Nov - Judge Baird to hear case on Terri's Law. Governor not properly served in suit, appeals venue.

Nov - Governor Bush petitions to remove Judge W. Douglas Baird on suggestion of bias.

Dec - 3 Terri's birthday. Supporters convene at Woodside Hospice. Terri receives more than 1,000 birthday cards and gifts.

Dec - Governor Bush denied discovery in Schiavo v Bush. Governor denied subpoenaing witnesses.

Dec - 20 Guardian ad Litem dismissed by Judge Demers.

Dec - 22 Judge Baird rules that he will issue a summary ruling on Terri's law without a trial. His ruling is withheld until appeals by Governor Bush are ruled upon in the Second District Court of Appeals in Lakeland, Florida.


2004

Jan - 8, Judge Demers denies petition for reinstatement of Guardian ad Litem

Nickdfresh
03-20-2005, 10:42 AM
rticle Published: Friday, March 18, 2005
Schiavo's feeding tube removed

By Mitch Stacy
The Associated Press

AP / Paul Kizzle
Protestors pray today outside Michael Schiavo's house in Clearwater, Fla.
• PHOTO: Schiavo's family

Pinellas Park, Fla. - Doctors removed Terri Schiavo's feeding tube today despite an extraordinary, last-minute push by Republicans on Capitol Hill to use the subpoena powers of Congress to save the severely brain-damaged woman.

Schiavo's family issued a statement on their website confirming that the tube had been disconnected.

It is expected that it will take one to two weeks for Schiavo to die, provided no one intercedes and gets the tube reinserted.

The removal came amid a flurry of maneuvering by Schiavo's parents, state lawmakers and Congress to keep her alive. Committees in the Republican-controlled Congress issued subpoenas for Schiavo, her husband, and her caregivers demanding that they appear at hearings in the coming weeks.

But the judge presiding over the case later refused a request from House attorneys to delay the removal, which he had previously ordered to take place at 1 p.m. EST (11 a.m. MST).

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"I have had no cogent reason why the (congressional) committee should intervene," Circuit Judge George Greer told attorneys in a conference call, adding that last-minute action by Congress does not invalidate years of court rulings.

The tube's removal signals that an end may be near in a decade-long family feud between Schiavo's husband and her devoutly Roman Catholic parents, Bob and Mary Schindler. The parents have been trying to oust Michael Schiavo as their daughter's guardian and keep in place the tube that has kept her alive for more than 15 years.

The tube has twice been removed in the past, but was re-inserted within days in both cases.

Michael Schiavo says his wife told him she would not want to be kept alive artificially. Her parents dispute that, saying she could get better and that their daughter has laughed, cried, smiled and responded to their voices. Court-appointed physicians testified her brain damage was so severe that there was no hope she would ever have any cognitive abilities.

Several right-to-die cases across the nation have been fought in the courts in recent years, but few, if any, have been this drawn-out and bitter.

The case has garnered attention around the world and served as a rallying cry for conservative Christian groups and anti-abortion activists, who flooded members of Congress and Florida legislators with messages seeking to keep Schiavo alive.

Outside Schiavo's hospice, about 30 people keeping vigil dropped to their knees in prayer when word spread of the judge's ruling calling for removal of the tube.

"What can wash away our sins? Nothing but the blood of Jesus," they sang. Messages on protest signs included "Impeach Greer.com," a reference to the judge, and "Execution - It's Not Just for the Guilty Anymore." House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, told reporters in Washington earlier today that removal of the tube amounted to "barbarism." But Rep. Henry Waxman of California, senior Democrat on the Government Reform Committee, called the subpoenas a "flagrant abuse of power" and amounted to Congress dictating the medical care Terri Schiavo should receive.

"Congress is turning the Schiavo family's personal tragedy into a national political farce," Waxman said.

Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 when a chemical imbalance apparently brought on by an eating disorder caused her heart to stop beating for a few minutes. She can breathe on her own, but has relied on the feeding and hydration tube to keep her alive.

Both sides accused each other of being motivated by greed over a $1 million medical malpractice award from doctors who failed to diagnose the chemical imbalance.

Wow! Looks like her "evil" husband is not the only one motivated by factors other than Terri Schiavo's well being! Hmm, I guess I'm not the only that can't read Vibe!

The Schindlers also said that Michael Schiavo wants their daughter dead so he can marry his longtime girlfriend, with whom he has young children. They have begged him to divorce their daughter, and let them care for her.

The tangled case has encompassed at least 19 judges in at least six different courts.

In 2001, Schiavo went without food and water for two days before a judge ordered the tube reinserted when a new witness surfaced.

When the tube was removed in October 2003, her parents and two siblings frantically sought intervention from Gov Jeb. Bush to stop her slow starvation. The governor pushed through "Terri's Law," and six days later the tube was reinserted.

That set off a new round of legal battles which culminated in September 2004 with the Florida Supreme Court ruling that Bush had overstepped his authority and declared the law unconstitutional.

The U.S. Supreme Court has been unwilling to hear arguments in the case.

On Feb. 25, Greer gave Michael Schiavo permission to order the removal of the feeding tube at 1 p.m. today.

The family and lawmakers continued with their fight in recent weeks.

In Tallahassee, the Florida House on Thursday passed a bill to block the withholding of food and water from patients in a persistent vegetative state who did not leave specific instructions on their care. Hours later, however, the Senate defeated a different measure 21-16

http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~11676~2769833,00.html

DrMaddVibe
03-20-2005, 10:48 AM
Like I stated to those that can and will read...this is in my backyard and has been for years. The study I've put into this is massive. This isn't the Denver Post's reporter beat Nick. Denver is in Colorado...Not Florida.

Nickdfresh
03-20-2005, 10:49 AM
BTW, The Right to Life lobby is full of shit on this with the whole "starving" thing! Newborns that are born "brain-dead" are allowed to "starve to death" all the time. You want to keep them alive indefinitely? They feel no pain since the body only senses hunger for a couple of days. Besides, she had an eating disorder which ultimately caused her to become brain damaged, I doubt she'll mind being starved.

Nickdfresh
03-20-2005, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Like I stated to those that can and will read...this is in my backyard and has been for years. The study I've put into this is massive. This isn't the Denver Post's reporter beat Nick. Denver is in Colorado...Not Florida.

Yeah, and Congress is in Washington, DC. They should stay the fuck out of it and focus on running the government!

academic punk
03-20-2005, 10:55 AM
Guys, as I myself consider myself to be fairly brainless, please block any attempts on my part to eat the english muffin and drink the orange juice I am currently consuming, as well as any future attempts at nourishment.

Thanks!

FORD
03-20-2005, 11:18 AM
Has Kitty Killer Frist made any statements on this case? Is he in on this unconstitutional bullshit with Jeb & DeLay?

Because if he is, that is a clear conflict of interest, since it appears that his family hospital corporation (Humana) might have been the ones who fucked up in the first place.

Of course when has a glaring conflict of interest ever stopped the BCE?

They need to stay the fuck out of this. It's a matter for the Florida courts to decide. And if Jeb's own judges can't be dishonest enough to do their bidding than tough shit.

Warham
03-20-2005, 11:23 AM
Democrats in Congress are in on this as well.

Let's not put it all on the 'BCE'.

FORD
03-20-2005, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Warham
Democrats in Congress are in on this as well.

Let's not put it all on the 'BCE'.

I haven't looked at the votes yet, but let me guess, the usual DLC moles?

Biden, Lieberman, Bayh, etc.

Nickdfresh
03-20-2005, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by Warham
Democrats in Congress are in on this as well.

Let's not put it all on the 'BCE'.

You have a point! As usual, members of both parties want to overstep the bounds of personal liberties!

Warham
03-20-2005, 11:43 AM
Bayh????BCE????

I think you are severely mistaken on that one. I know the guy well since he was the governor when I lived in Indiana. He's no Republican in disguise.

FORD
03-20-2005, 12:13 PM
Didn't Republicans used to be the party of "states rights"??

Must have ended with the 2000 coup (like democracy itself)

LoungeMachine
03-20-2005, 12:51 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Democrats in Congress are in on this as well.

Let's not put it all on the 'BCE'.



Sunday, March 20, 2005 - Page updated at 12:00 a.m.



GOP memo says issue offers political rewards

By The Washington Post


WASHINGTON — Republican leaders believe their attention to the Terri Schiavo issue could pay dividends with Christian conservatives whose support they covet in the 2006 midterm elections, according to a GOP memo intended to be seen only by senators.

The one-page memo, distributed to Republican senators by party leaders, called the debate over Schiavo legislation "a great political issue" that would appeal to the party's base, or core, supporters. The memo singled out Sen. Bill Nelson, D-Fla., who is up for re-election next year.

"This is an important moral issue, and the pro-life base will be excited that the Senate is debating this important issue," said the memo, reported by ABC News and later given to The Washington Post. "This is a great political issue, because Senator Nelson of Florida has already refused to become a co-sponsor and this is a tough issue for Democrats."

:mad: DISGUSTING

LoungeMachine
03-20-2005, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Regardless of your party affiliation(I don't see how that would play into this),

Read the Repuke' s own memo posted above and learn just how much this IS "playing" into this....

academic punk
03-20-2005, 01:08 PM
So let me get this straight: potentially improving and saving TENS OF THOUSANDS of people's lives by investing in stem-cell research, that's a "no", but keeping a vegetable - who can't even employ the basci motor functions of a day old baby to swallow apple sauce - alive...well, who wouldn't?

FORD
03-20-2005, 01:09 PM
The irony here is that Nelson is a DLC robot who votes with their side more often than he votes with Dems.

FORD
03-20-2005, 01:11 PM
Originally posted by academic punk
So let me get this straight: potentially improving and saving TENS OF THOUSANDS of people's lives by investing in stem-cell research, that's a "no", but keeping a vegetable - who can't even employ the basci motor functions of a day old baby to swallow apple sauce - alive...well, who wouldn't?

It's worse than that. If stem cells could help the vegetable formerly known as Terri Schiavo, they wouldn't allow that either.

Of course she's way past that. But Christopher Reeve wasn't :(

tomballin
03-20-2005, 01:59 PM
I have some questions and thoughts for our R.A. panel of assembled and esteemed experts on the Schiavo quagmire. Look forward to your thoughts and comments. - Tomba

For the record, I am pro-choice, meaning pro-right to die and pro-abortion, and a Christian. Imo, the government and the medical establishment has no business telling a man or women what they can or cannot do with their body in the aforementioned matters.

Of course, like I stated, this Schiavo case has not been about “right to die” for years now. I also have a PVS victim in my non-immediate family, and have followed this Schiavo case closely for four disgusting years.

---Questions and Thoughts for the R.A. Panel------

1. If Terri told her husband Michael (MS) that she would not want to live as a PVS victim, why was she consistently demonstrated Pro-Life AND Catholic before her collapse.

2. If Terri trusted MS to have sole responsibility in making this decision for her, why had she told her mother and friends that she wanted to divorce MS, because she couldn’t take the abuse or “at home situation” any longer.

The “at home situation” meant MS saying he would leave Terri if she didn’t stay skinny, and he greatly contributing to Terri’s extremely serious and advanced bulimia nervosa. Also Terri said MS was giving her consistent hell, because she could not get pregnant because of her bulimia disease. He was also a manic control freak and extremely jealous of Terri, according to her friends.

Medical experts have stated in official court documents, that it appears Terri’s hormones screwed up when she went through puberty, causing her to gain uncontrolled weight. She ballooned to well over 200 lbs on a 5’2” frame. Also remember, that because Terri was a Sammy Hagar style fat hog, and very shy, she never had any love interests, until she met MS. He is the only man she every had a relationship with before her collapse.

3. If Terri trusted MS to have sole responsibility in this life and death decision, why was MS AND her parents legal guardian of her affairs at the time of her collapse.

Her parent’s signed over their guardian rights to MS, year’s later, at the request of the attorneys handling the medical malpractice case against Terri’s two doctors. MS having sole guardian control would make the trial go easier under Florida’s ultra liberal and flaky laws, and increase the amount of money the attorney’s could get for Terri’s long-term care.

At that point in time, (years after Terri’s collapse) MS had busted his ass to help Terri and had good relationships with her parents, including living at their home because he was dead broke with Terri’s medical bills. Terri’s parent had no idea MS would stick it up their ass and not properly care for Terri, once he got his hands on the money, when they signed over their guardian interest to MS, strictly for the court case, at the request of their high powered Miami based law firm.

Sarge indicated in his post that it was Terri’s parent that tried the brain implant’s to help Terri. With all respect, this is not accurate. It was MS that took Terri to California, to try this experimental treatment, that was not successful, after two attempts, BEFORE the malpractice award.

4. If Terri said she would not want to live as a PVS, why did MS never say ONE WORD, about her alleged “off the cuff” remark, made while they watched a movie together related to the subject, until AFTER he got his hands on the settlement money. During the malpractice trial, MS stated on the witness stand, in well documented court transcripts, that he would take care of Terri for the rest of her God given life.

It was based on MS’s recorded court statements, that the settlement award was calculated. If MS had said on the witness stand, that Terri didn’t want to live as a PVS, and he wanted to respectfully end her life according to her wishes, the malpractice settlement award would have been SUBSTANTIALLY lower.

Terri was awarded $6.8 million by the jury in her malpractice case, for her care for the rest of her God given life. Based on expert medical testimony however, the Judge lowered the award to $2 million (net $1.1 million to MS) because the medical experts stated that Terri’s life expectancy was greatly reduced due to her extremely serious and advanced bulimia nervosa. The medical experts testified to the Judge that in their opinion Terri life expectancy was only 45 - 50 years old.

** SideBar: In 2003, the last time Terri’s tube was removed, MS and George Felos pulled a “hail Mary” play and did a full hour Larry King Live Interview, in an attempt to sway public opinion. Around 40 minutes into the show, it blew up in their face, and exposed MS and his motives to the hilt. King in his low level and questioning approach was brilliant. Particularly, on the questions about Michael living with another women, having two children by her, yet refusing to divorce Terri.

After more King questions, nailing him down, MS got mad, and looked right at the camera’s and said, “I am going to do this (kill her) and nobody is going to stop me!” , almost spitting, the mofo was so pissed. I have both the transcript and the full video, for anyone that really wants to see this worthless fucker in action.

So there you go, for you thoughts and discussion.

We can all ignore this shite, and say let Terri go, (yeah, in a sterile vacuum, it’s the right thing to do, imo) but it’s this shite, AND MUCH MORE, that has supercharged this issue (and public circus), and sent the knowledgeable public into an uproar over this out of control and sickening situation.

It is also why people like me say that if the Bush Texas Family Mafia, and Tom “The Hammer” DeLay can break it off in Michael Schiavo’s and his attorney George “Dr Death” Felos, ass, DO IT!

It will not do a thing for Terri, but it will be the first time in this whole disaster, that Terri’s poor parents will finally get some satisfaction, that they stick Michael Schiavo’s bullshit right up his worthless ass. Further, if they can get Terri’s sealed records opened in a Federal court, MS and Felos legal ass is chopped meat, and they well know it.

Just my 3 Cents - Roth On

=========================

Official R.A. Member Slave’s Co-Mascot

The Spirit of Rick "Super Freak" James (RIP-2004)

http://i140.exs.cx/img140/9477/rickjamesx418qu.jpg

RJ Super Freakisms: (Takes Rothisms to a whole new level)

"I wish I had more hands, so I could give those titties four thumbs down" (The milk gones bad!) - RJ

"What did the five fingers say to the face.......SLAP!" - RJ

"I'm Rick James..bitch" (Show me some titties)" - RJ

"I'm one of the baddest motherfuckers of all times. I'm one of the best singers and best looking motherfuckers you've ever seen…..Hold my drink bitch" - RJ

and of course the RJ famous classic.

"Cocaine is one helluva drug" - RJ

==========================

tomballin
03-20-2005, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
BTW, The Right to Life lobby is full of shit on this with the whole "starving" thing! Newborns that are born "brain-dead" are allowed to "starve to death" all the time. You want to keep them alive indefinitely? They feel no pain since the body only senses hunger for a couple of days. Besides, she had an eating disorder which ultimately caused her to become brain damaged, I doubt she'll mind being starved.

>>>Newborns that are born "brain-dead" are
>>>allowed to "starve to death" all the time.

NDF, newborns don't have developed GI tracts and central-autonomic nervous systems. Who different deal

PVS's like Terri, do feel pain. That is why it's standard medical procedure to dope them up in the starvation stage.

However you are right, people fighting this “starvation thing” are wasting their time, because it’s standard medical procedure endorsed by the American Medical Association, and legal in all but I think one State in the U.S.

Also, if you haven’t been around PVS’s, they will surprise-scare the shite out of you sometimes with what they can do and feel. It’s very strange.

academic punk
03-20-2005, 03:01 PM
Tomba -

I'm not going to even get into the soap opera contained in your first three points, but as you yourself said, MS agreed to take care of Terry for the rest of her GOD-GIVEN life.

The "life" that is currently living is NOT God-given. It is completely man-made, and with the removal of the feeding tube, her God-givne inability to even use her basic motor functions to accept food and water fed to her via a spoon or straw rather than a feedig tube.

Sorry, T. Doctor after doctor has asserted she is completely brain-dead. I know her family would like to think she understands and recognizes them, but that's just wishful thinking according to the medical community.

Cathedral
03-20-2005, 03:46 PM
Originally posted by tomballin
I also have a PVS victim in my non-immediate family, and have followed this Schiavo case closely for four disgusting years.

Right, well when you are the guardian of a person who is heading long and hard into this condition, then you can jump my shit about my experiences in delaing with this kind of thing.

I never claimed to be an MD, and everyday is an education in this for me, every day, not just from the perspective of having a "non immediate family member" where i can just go home and look at it from an outsiders perspective, which is what you are and what you're doing.

I don't intend to make light of your own personal situation, and you have my prayers for you relative, but i won't argue the differences in our experiences with you because that will require me to post on this forum certain aspects i can't even talk about much less post.

Now i am certainly no Michael Schiavo and i will do whatever i have to do for my wife, and if i can't for one reason or another, I will find a way as i have done since 1999.
What you know or think you know about their personal relationship before Terri's collapse, and your opinion of his current relationship doesn't change the fact that he is her husband and is afforded the right's as her Guardian to ensure her wishes are carried out.
Her own friends have testified that "she stated" she would prefer death to this, so this isn't just what Michael is saying.

Whatever your contempt for Michael Schiavo is, they weren't dicorced before this happened so his right's and responsibilities are being trampled by Congress. There is no proof of what you claim, only testimony of those who are against what Michael is trying to do.
So, their motivation is clear and my only concern is that Terri be allowed to die, not because of any legal rambling going on, but because no sane person would even see her current existance as living.

I see it for what it is, not what is reported or claimed by those with alterior motives. Truth is, nobody knows what to believe, but that isn't whats important here, is it?
Whats important is that this personal family issue doesn't become a poltical football, which sadly it already has, and that the woman is granted the peace she deserves.

And last but certainly not least, it is an example to everyone that if you don't specify in writing how doctors and family are to proceed in this instance, families can expect to face the same issues in a similar situation.

This is exactly the reason i made a living will for my wife and myself, so this mess will not be a possibility in our lives.

Again, my prayers to your relative and your family that is dealing with this first hand.

academic punk
03-20-2005, 04:31 PM
Here's the latest:

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050320/ap_on_go_co/schiavo_congress

House GOP Fails to OK Schiavo Legislation


WASHINGTON - House Republicans, seeing Congress as a last hope for brain-damaged Terri Schiavo, failed during an extraordinary Palm Sunday session to pass legislation aimed at prolonging the Florida woman's life.

Once Democrats refused to allow the measure to go ahead without objection, Republicans began scrambling to bring lawmakers, who had just started their Easter recess, back to Washington.

Majority Republicans called a recess after the four-minute session and said they planned to meet as early as one minute after midnight on Monday — if they get at least 218 of the 435-member House to attend.

The Senate awaited the chance for quick approval of a bill that congressional leaders said would allow Schiavo's feeding tube to be reconnected. President Bush (news - web sites) was cutting short a stay at his Texas ranch and returning to the White House by Sunday evening in hopes of being able to sign the bill.

"Her feeding tube was removed, so time was important at this point," White House spokesman Scott McClellan said, explaining Bush's decision to return to the capital. "Hours do matter at this point," McClellan told reporters aboard Air Force One.

Cathedral
03-20-2005, 04:40 PM
It will be political suicide if they pass this bill and put that tube back into Terri Schiavo's stomach.
What they are doing is unconstitutional by trying to pass legislation concerning one person.

The fact is that without medical intervention she would die, and her husband has the right to determine if it ceases or continues, NOT WASHINGTON.

LoungeMachine
03-20-2005, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
It will be political suicide if they pass this bill and put that tube back into Terri Schiavo's stomach.
What they are doing is unconstitutional by trying to pass legislation concerning one person.

The fact is that without medical intervention she would die, and her husband has the right to determine if it ceases or continues, NOT WASHINGTON.

As usual, the Voice of Reason from the Right.....

Nice, Cath;)

Steve Savicki
03-20-2005, 04:44 PM
This may be one of the most controversial topics of 2005.

Cathedral
03-20-2005, 04:50 PM
I am more of a fanatical gemini than anything else, but i appreciate the kind words.

I just learned they will pass this legislation unanimously, and there goes my confidence in anything political in this country.

DrMaddVibe
03-20-2005, 05:13 PM
Cat, your posts rings true but I have to interject a couple of things.

1) MS has stated that he's doing this because it was Terri's wish. He authorized the feeding tube in the 1st place. If he was abiding by her wishes then why did he authorize it to begin with?

2) Why was all rehab therapy stopped back in '93? In '91 she was improving! '92 the settlement money pours in...what gives?!?

3) Show me another "husband" that cares so much for his ailing wife's wishes that he finds the need to shack up with a common-law wife and father 2 children with her out of wedlock...all the while his wife is in a hospice! I'm not buying the "loving husband" bit one bit!

In this nation so much has been predicated on Life that now we want to reverse that thought and state that Death is better than Life? I could just see our Founding Fathers with this on the plate...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Death, Liberty and the pursuit to die.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

Yeah....riii-ght!

tomballin
03-20-2005, 05:37 PM
Hey, Cathedral, I was just rasin ya on the MD deal. Don't take offense.

Honestly I don’t take any of this Schiavo shite personal and haven’t for a long time. Both sides are crazy and lying their ass off in this deal, that is very offensive to anyone with common sense and decency.

What has been going on in Congress today with DeLay is total crap. Shite, the clown tried to past a “Terri’s bill” without even a roll call vote, before he got knocked up beside the head, and they adjourned the special session. What a bunch of bull.

But Cathedral you are wrong if you think Congress has not passed individual personal bills before, because they have. A law prof researched it last year and published a piece on it. They were however usually attached on another bill, so the public never heard about it unlike this situation.

The only reason DeLay and Bush are doing all this is for PR, because DeLay has his ass in a sling on that criminal grand jury investigation against him in Houston. Two years ago some Federal investigators accidentally stumbled on some documents at Enron, that implicates DeLay, and a number of the Bush Texas Family Mafia members in some major league fraud and corruption. It doesn’t get much press, but there is a reporter at the Washington Post that has been bird dogging this deal for years, and is damn good.

Judge Greer, on Terri’s case is an idiot, but he had one remark a while back that was right on the money, imo. This situation has to have a fixed length. Both sides cannot keep changing the goal line by slinging mud and playing this case out in the media. A lot of the stuff on Michael Schiavo is very true, but if Terri’s parents cannot prove their case after all this time, well they lost and nobody said life or the court systems were fair. I support that 100% even in my own family's personal situation.

Everybody has cut Terri's parents some slack because Michael Schiavo used Terri's medical award to fuel his litigation, and has out spent them by close to $750,000 in legal fees all total with outside help.

But Florida has one of the best crime labs in the Country. If Terri’s parents hadn’t been such liars about the whole thing, (mainly her Father) and lying that Terri never had severe bulimia, like he wasn’t there for the ENTIRE damn malpractice trial, and all her primary family had their depositions taken, hello!,,,,,,,,,the crime lab and other Florida law enforcement official’s would have helped her parents on this case with some very clear evidence that an admitting nurse leaked out of the hospital years ago on Terri’s collapse and more.

Her father has been Terri’s own worst nemesis. Like DLR said – That’s Life, que it up.

Roth On and Be Well

Cathedral
03-20-2005, 05:46 PM
1) MS has stated that he's doing this because it was Terri's wish. He authorized the feeding tube in the 1st place. If he was abiding by her wishes then why did he authorize it to begin with?

For the same reason I would, because there may be a chance she'll improve in the future.

2) Why was has all rehab therapy stopped back in '93? In '91 she was improving! '92 the settlement money pours in...what gives?!?

This can be based somewhat on the diagnosis the doctors have given Michael Schiavo, although i don't claim to know his motivations nor do i agree with them if they aren't sincere. Even still, he is her guardian and has legal right to do what he has been trying to do.

3) Show me another "husband" that cares so much for his ailing wife's wishes that he finds the need to shack up with a common-law wife and father 2 children with her out of wedlock...all the while his wife is in a hospice! I'm not buying the "loving husband" bit one bit!

Really we should be careful to place our own morality on another human being. It is human nature for everyone to need companionship and in this situation it is a very lonely time and tough to deal with alone. I'm not excusing what he did, and even i haven't been perfect in this regard, but it doesn't diminish the love he may have had for her, he's just facing the fact that they will never be husband and wife in the realistic sense of the union.

Fuck man, I don't have any answers that even i am comfortable with, only opinions from my own perspective.
The fact that she was not able to select him as her Representative troubles me.
She did not have the foresight to make arrangements or write down her wishes, so more than anything i am looking at the testimony of her friends that said in court that she would not want to live this way more than what her husband says.
There is more than enough reason for me to doubt his sincerity in this.

But if you look at it from a legal perspective i have to acknowledge his position in this because the burden lays on his shoulders legally.
He has been offered Millions to walk away, but he doesn't take it and that begs the question, Why?.

He states it is because of what her parents intend to do, but the media says it is more of a criminal cover up, and i don't know any facts on that because i question the source of those initial complaints.

But beyond all of that, she doesn't deserve to be a pawn in this and should just be allowed to go on into the hands of God once and for all.
While everyone consumes themselves with all the legal banter of this, she lays there in limbo without a clue as to what's happening around her.
I say just end it all and allow her the right to die because the one thing i believe in all of this is that shehas stated to more than one person her wishes and that has been upheld in court.

Then after all the political smoke clears, investigate Michael Schiavo and hold his ass accountable for any wrong doing he and his attorney can be found guilty of because that is a seperate issue that Terri can offer no testimony to.

Cathedral
03-20-2005, 05:53 PM
But Cathedral you are wrong if you think Congress has not passed individual personal bills before, because they have. A law prof researched it last year and published a piece on it. They were however usually attached on another bill, so the public never heard about it unlike this situation.

I know that very well, for instance, it happened in a Michigan case in the 80's with a man who was in a car wreck.
His wife was over ruled and they kept him alive until he died of infection in 1989.

And there are other cases very similar to this, and it is an abuse of political power.

I just want to see Terri get the peace she has clearly told people she would prefer to this, everything else is irrelevant and can be taken up at a later date without denying her what she wanted.

I am by no means saying kill her and be done with it, I am saying that i agree with the initial judgement that being kept alive like this is against her wishes.

If laws were broken, investigate and prosecute, but Terri can offer no testimony so give her what she wanted.

DrMaddVibe
03-20-2005, 06:00 PM
It is the legal position that troubles me.

A judge that continues to dismiss witness and expert testimony regarding Terri's wishes. His failure to find MS practicing bigamy and dismissing his rights as a guardian for Terri. And finally refusing to allow the family and doctors willing to treat her (for free in several cases!) for rehabilitative purposes.

It seems like the Schlinder's are in a no-win contest but haven't been able to get their side heard!

In my opinion judge Greer and MS should stand up and do the right thing. Admit their mistakes and let her family take care of her. They've already stated they'd take care of the bills so there goes that angle; however if it were me I'd have MS repay the "legal costs" that Terri's settlement paid for!

How twisted is it that her own money that was supposed to be used for her is being used to kill her.

Cathedral
03-20-2005, 06:53 PM
This only moves me to think that Living Wills should be outlawed and those who fall into a PVS have no options but to live until medical intervention can no longer sustain you.

POA's will then be legal on the basis of doing everything possible for your loved one until that time, and to ok any medical treatment during such time.

I really have no desire for me or anyone else being in a position to terminate life support in any way for anyone.

But this will leave so many people in financial dispair and could bankrupt insurance companies, so there is a whole lot to consider in all of this because it isn't just an emotional burden, it is a financial burden as well.
And like most people, I don't care how much debt i get slammed with, you can't get blood out of a turnip, and i'm not rich.

I mean, I am heavily insured, i learned my lessons early in life. but where do you turn if your insurance provider goes bankrupt?
I'm not even gonna mention how much it costs to care for a disabled person, and the government doesn't supply shit for disability in that respect.
And Medicaid would severly limit the options in the patients care.
Medicare? covers 20% and no more.
Not to mention how much i have to pay in premiums AND raise a minor child....And some wonder why i am so fucked up around here.

Fuck, this site is therapy for me, lol.

academic punk
03-20-2005, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
It is the legal position that troubles me.

A judge that continues to dismiss witness and expert testimony regarding Terri's wishes. His failure to find MS practicing bigamy and dismissing his rights as a guardian for Terri. And finally refusing to allow the family and doctors willing to treat her (for free in several cases!) for rehabilitative purposes.

It seems like the Schlinder's are in a no-win contest but haven't been able to get their side heard!

The reason is that MS has taken the professional assessments and determinations of the doctors most central to TS, and said, My wife would not want to live this life.

The fact that he's refusing the money and the free ride only reasserts that. He's acting in HER best wishes, not HIS.

In my opinion judge Greer and MS should stand up and do the right thing. Admit their mistakes and let her family take care of her. They've already stated they'd take care of the bills so there goes that angle; however if it were me I'd have MS repay the "legal costs" that Terri's settlement paid for!

How twisted is it that her own money that was supposed to be used for her is being used to kill her.

academic punk
03-20-2005, 06:58 PM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
It is the legal position that troubles me.

A judge that continues to dismiss witness and expert testimony regarding Terri's wishes. His failure to find MS practicing bigamy and dismissing his rights as a guardian for Terri. And finally refusing to allow the family and doctors willing to treat her (for free in several cases!) for rehabilitative purposes.

It seems like the Schlinder's are in a no-win contest but haven't been able to get their side heard!



In my opinion judge Greer and MS should stand up and do the right thing. Admit their mistakes and let her family take care of her. They've already stated they'd take care of the bills so there goes that angle; however if it were me I'd have MS repay the "legal costs" that Terri's settlement paid for!

How twisted is it that her own money that was supposed to be used for her is being used to kill her.


The reason is that MS has taken the professional assessments and determinations of the doctors most central to TS, and said, My wife would not want to live this life.

The fact that he's refusing the money and the free ride only reasserts that. He's acting in HER best wishes, not HIS.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 07:02 PM
>>His failure to find MS practicing bigamy and dismissing his rights as a guardian for Terri.

MS is not practicing bigamy. He is not married to his live in. What he is doing is not illegal, maybe not moral, but not illegal.

Now MS is using his live in’s name to hide assets, based on a records search, that could be illegal, but again if you cannot prove it in court you got zero against him, and he wins.

A lot of Probate Judges are the dumbest of the lot for sure, and Greer is no exception, but again that's life.

>>And finally refusing to allow the family and doctors willing to treat her (for free in several cases!) for rehabilitative purposes.

The doctor’s Terri’s parents have brought into court are quacks using unproven techniques, with no valid medical science. No one with half a brain would EVER let those quacks get close to their PVS/quasi-PVS loved ones.

One their medical experts is on probation by the Florida Medical Association for defrauding patients on his bogus medical protocols, that he advertised in the National Enquirer for gosh sakes! Yet her parents had that quack as their spokesman all over the TV and the print media HELLO! Another doctor’s idea is extremely dangerous and highly contraindication for a person in Terri’s persent state.

And then they got that criminal Randall Terry as their ra ra leader and spokesman. Some of the people in that mofo’s group were involved in the death and injury of doctors and nurses in some legal Florida abortion clinics years back.

Terry and his lunatic clowns have also been involved in throwing volitle butyric acid on doctors, nurses, and patients at legally operated abortion clinics, and drilling holes in exterior walls and pumping that caustic shit into their offices and patient’s rooms.

You think the Florida State Law Enforcement officials don’t know these facts, when the Schindler’s come asking for their help for their daughter Terri. Again HELLO!

Terri’s parents give MS’s attorney George Felos, this case win on a silver platter most of the time over the years, and make a mockery of the courts with junk like this.

Honestly some of it is not their fault, but come on.

The whole problem in a nutshell is Florida’s laws on this matter. The original drafters of the bill, now law, that Michael Schiavo is using to bag Terri, have stated publicly the law is flawed, and they never intended for something like this to happen, and the Judicial branch was interrupting the law wrong based on their original intent.
That was in 2003, and they swore to fix the law in 2004, first thing in their new Legislative session, yet NOTHING has happened to date.

Hey, you have some very knowledgeable posts on this matter. Not trying to bang on you. But obviously this whole situation gets real frustrating, real quick.

Roth On


Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
It is the legal position that troubles me.

A judge that continues to dismiss witness and expert testimony regarding Terri's wishes. His failure to find MS practicing bigamy and dismissing his rights as a guardian for Terri. And finally refusing to allow the family and doctors willing to treat her (for free in several cases!) for rehabilitative purposes.

It seems like the Schlinder's are in a no-win contest but haven't been able to get their side heard!

In my opinion judge Greer and MS should stand up and do the right thing. Admit their mistakes and let her family take care of her. They've already stated they'd take care of the bills so there goes that angle; however if it were me I'd have MS repay the "legal costs" that Terri's settlement paid for!

How twisted is it that her own money that was supposed to be used for her is being used to kill her.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by academic punk
The reason is that MS has taken the professional assessments and determinations of the doctors most central to TS, and said, My wife would not want to live this life.

The fact that he's refusing the money and the free ride only reasserts that. He's acting in HER best wishes, not HIS.


I am sorry but that is total bullshit. MS is using "planted" euthanasia supporting doctors, that Felos lined up and have been used in other cases around the U.S. His main physician expert was from Illinois I think without pulling the file.

Sorry that's the facts here.

BigBadBrian
03-20-2005, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by FORD
If stem cells could help the vegetable formerly known as Terri Schiavo, they wouldn't allow that either.

Of course she's way past that. But Christopher Reeve wasn't :(

FORD, do you call people with Parkinson's Disease "Vegetables" also?

That's about as a disgusting term for another human being as one can call another.

LoungeMachine
03-20-2005, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
FORD, do you call people with Parkinson's Disease "Vegetables" also?

That's about as a disgusting term for another human being as one can call another.

Terrible comparison.

I have some very direct and personal experience on this one.

Not even close:rolleyes:

BigBadBrian
03-20-2005, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Terrible comparison.

I have some very direct and personal experience on this one.

Not even close:rolleyes:

So does (or did) FORD, but I'm not going there out of respect.

It was entirely to make that very point.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
[B]This only moves me to think that Living Wills should be outlawed


Let's not go back to the stone age here, over this one sick case, due to Florida's screwed up laws. We also have to remember this happened 15 years ago, when a lot of people didn't know about Living Wills AND Durable Power's of Attorney.

These days you need both because some doctors still think they are God and will ignore Living Wills in the "interest of medicine" and their "professional judgement at the time".

Third, some States including mine, have legal Health Care Directives and a card you carry in your wallet. I have one.

It's so when Diamond Dave shows up in the meat wagon, and you cannot communicate your wishes and special needs, Dave can find the card and check it out real quick. It protects the EMT from liability also.

That card saved my life a couple of years ago when I was involved in a very serious car accident, and had requirements that the EMT's HAD to know about or I would be pushing up daisies now.

A lot of athletes, body builders, etc on "special programs" :-) lives have been saved by these HCD cards also.

LoungeMachine
03-20-2005, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian

It was entirely to make that very point.

:rolleyes:

Cathedral
03-20-2005, 07:42 PM
Originally posted by tomballin

These days you need both because some doctors still think they are God and will ignore Living Wills in the "interest of medicine" and their "professional judgement at the time".

In the state of Ohio, that is a crime.

But even some people who had both got their living wills contested by family and lost their right's to their wishes.

I have both, and the Schiavo case is the reason why. and this is a wake up call to everyone who doesn't.

So, Tomballin, I am curious as to your opinion on what should happen with Terri?
You are well versed in the history, but i am curious as to your opinion for a conclusion...If i missed that post, I apologize.

tomballin
03-20-2005, 07:45 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
[b]I just want to see Terri get the peace she has clearly told people she would prefer to this, everything else is irrelevant and can be taken up at a later date without denying her what she wanted.


This is what pisses me and others off. There is no proof of this as fact anywhere. PERIOD.

Plus why didn't her fuck head husband say any of this in the malpractice trial, that he obviously defrauded, by saying it after the trial and he got the money.

The devil is in the details, Cat. Always is, and remember Terri was Pro-Choice and Catholic.

Warham
03-20-2005, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Terrible comparison.

I have some very direct and personal experience on this one.

Not even close:rolleyes:

Lounge has no problem calling people vegetables.

LoungeMachine
03-20-2005, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Lounge has no problem calling people vegetables.

You are just full of shit lately....

I have no problem calling you a neo-con shitbag though:D

Warham
03-20-2005, 07:52 PM
I take that as a term of affection.

LoungeMachine
03-20-2005, 07:57 PM
Originally posted by Warham
I take that as a term of affection.

yeah, that and most barn yard sounds......:D

FORD
03-20-2005, 08:46 PM
...as George Bush Jr flies back to Washington to do a favor for his brother Jeb, the mediawhores ignore the fact that Junior, as governor of Texas, signed into law in 1999 a bill which allowed feeding tubes & breathing tubes to be removed from vegetative patients......

Here's the results of Junior's own hypocrisy

Baby dies after hospital removes breathing tube
Case is the first in which a judge allowed a hospital to discontinue care

By LEIGH HOPPER
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle

The baby wore a cute blue outfit with a teddy bear covering his bottom. The 17-pound, nearly 6-month-old boy wiggled with eyes open, his mother said, and smacked his lips.


Then at 2 p.m. Tuesday, a medical staffer at Texas Children's Hospital gently removed the breathing tube that had kept Sun Hudson alive since his birth Sept. 25. Cradled by his mother, he took a few breaths, and died.

"I talked to him, I told him that I loved him. Inside of me, my son is still alive," Wanda Hudson told reporters afterward. "This hospital was considered a miracle hospital. When it came to my son, they gave up in six months. ... They made a terrible mistake."

Sun's death marks the first time a U.S. judge has allowed a hospital to discontinue an infant's life-sustaining care against a parent's wishes, according to bioethical experts. A similar case involving a 68-year-old man in a vegetative state at another Houston hospital is before a court now.

"It's sad this thing dragged on for so long. We all feel it's unfair, that a child doesn't have a chance to develop and thrive," said William Winslade, a bioethicist and lawyer who is a professor at the Institute for the Medical Humanities at the University of Texas Medical Branch at Galveston. Paraphrasing the late Catholic theologian and ethicist Richard McCormick, Winslade added, "This isn't murder. It's mercy, and it's appropriate to be merciful in that way. It's not killing, it's stopping pointless treatment."

The hospital's description of Sun — that he was motionless and sedated for comfort — has differed sharply from the mother's. Since February, the hospital has blocked the media from Hudson's invitation to see the baby, citing privacy concerns.

"I wanted y'all to see my son for yourself," Hudson told reporters. "So you could see he was actually moving around. He was conscious."

On Feb. 16, Harris County Probate Court Judge William C. McCulloch made the landmark decision to lift restrictions preventing Texas Children's from discontinuing care. However, an appeal by Hudson's attorney, Mario Caballero, and a procedural error on McCulloch's part prevented the hospital from acting for four weeks.

Texas law allows hospitals to discontinue life-sustaining care, even if a patient's family members disagree. A doctor's recommendation must be approved by a hospital's ethics committee, and the family must be given 10 days from written notice of the decision to try and locate another facility for the patient.

Texas Children's said it contacted 40 facilities with newborn intensive care units, but none would accept Sun. Without legal delays, Sun's care would have ended Nov. 28.

Sun was born with a fatal form of dwarfism characterized by short arms, short legs and lungs too tiny, doctors said. Nearly all babies born with the incurable condition, often diagnosed in utero, die shortly after birth, genetic counselors say.

Sun was delivered full term at St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital, but Hudson, 33, said she had no prenatal care during which his condition might have been discovered.

He was put on a ventilator while doctors figured out what was wrong with him, and Hudson refused when doctors recommended withdrawing treatment.

Texas Children's contended that continuing care for Sun was medically inappropriate, prolonged suffering and violated physician ethics. Hudson argued her son just needed more time to grow and be weaned from the ventilator.

Another case involving a patient on life support — a 68-year-old man in a chronic vegetative state whose family wants to stop St. Luke's Episcopal Hospital from turning off his ventilator — was scheduled to be heard Tuesday by the Houston-based 1st Court of Appeals. But the case was transferred to the 14th Court of Appeals, which promptly issued a temporary injunction ordering St. Luke's not to remove the man's life support. No hearing date has been set.


Chronicle reporter Todd Ackerman contributed to this report.

leigh.hopper@chron.com

http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/front/3087387

tomballin
03-20-2005, 09:33 PM
U.S. Senate Approves Federal Review of Schiavo Case (Update3)

March 20 - 8:05 P.M. EST (Bloomberg) -- The U.S. Senate voted in a hastily convened Sunday session to allow the case of Terri Schiavo, a brain-damaged Florida woman, to be placed under federal review.

The House of Representatives will debate the bill for three hours starting at 9:00 pm EST with a vote expected just after midnight. President George W. Bush returned to Washington today from his ranch in Crawford, Texas, so he can immediately sign the bill when it's passed.

``The bill we passed this afternoon centers on the sanctity of human life,'' said Senate Republican Leader Bill Frist of Tennessee. ``These are extraordinary circumstances that center on the most fundamental of human values -- the sanctity of human life.''

Full Article
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=10000087&sid=a4pRNI1_Y0jI&refer=top_world_news

Warham
03-20-2005, 09:54 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
yeah, that and most barn yard sounds......:D

What's wrong with owning livestock? Have something against livestock owners?

Cathedral
03-20-2005, 09:59 PM
Originally posted by tomballin
This is what pisses me and others off. There is no proof of this as fact anywhere. PERIOD.

Plus why didn't her fuck head husband say any of this in the malpractice trial, that he obviously defrauded, by saying it after the trial and he got the money.

The devil is in the details, Cat. Always is, and remember Terri was Pro-Choice and Catholic.

I don't know this to be fact, but what about the reports that her own friends said she stated that she wouldn't want to live life in a PVS?

I am trying to find some copy of those cases but not coming up with anything.

But the more i think about it, none of this is really any of my business, so i'll probably stop posting about this.
It's not going to help anyone to know my opinion anyway, and i certainly don't want to argue with anyone over it, got my own problems to deal with in this area anyway. know what i mean?

DrMaddVibe
03-20-2005, 10:42 PM
Sunday, March 20, 2005 10:19 a.m. EST

Nurse: Terri Can Eat Normally

A certified nursing assistant who cared for Terri Schiavo in 1997 filed a sworn affidavit in the case stating that she was able to feed Schiavo normally on multiple occasions - but that husband Michael Schiavo would allow only a feeding tube.

Heidi Law, a CNA at the Palm Gardens nursing home, testified:

"At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened. I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag.

"[Another CNA] and I frequently put orange juice or apple juice in her washcloth to give her something nice to taste, which made her happy. On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely."

Law testified that the only reason she didn't attempt to feed Ms. Schiavo more frequently was "because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael."

Editorializing on the case in light of Law's account, the Pittsburgh Post Gazette said Sunday, "It is one thing to withdraw a feeding tube; another entirely to withhold that day's meal tray."

Carla Sauer Iyer was a registered nurse at the same facility. In her own affidavit Iyer testified that Ms. Schiavo was capable of speech, explaining, "[Terri] spoke on a regular basis, saying such things as 'Mommy' and 'help me.'"

When she put a washcloth in Terri's hands to keep her fingers from curling together, Iyer said, "Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy" that he had forbidden.

"Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death," the RN noted. "Michael would say 'When is she going to die?' 'Has she died yet?' and 'When is that bitch gonna die?'"

Warham
03-20-2005, 10:48 PM
Yikes.

FORD
03-20-2005, 10:58 PM
AssVibe, what's your source on that last one?

Better be something more reputable than NewsHax, because that's some serious discrepancies with all other accounts of the story.

Never mind.... It's NewsHax alright. And they don't cite a single source for their statements.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/20/102601.shtml

Warham
03-20-2005, 11:06 PM
AFFIDAVIT

STATE OF FLORIDA

COUNTY OF PINELLAS


BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared HEIDI LAW who being first duly sworn deposes and says:

1. My name is Heidi Law, I am over the age of 18 years, and make this statement on personal information.

2. I worked as a Certified Nursing Assistant at the Palm Gardens nursing home from March, 1997 to mid-summer of 1997. While I was employed at Palm Gardens, occasionally I took care of Theresa Schiavo. Generally, I worked the 3 p.m. to 11 p.m. shift, but occasionally also would work a double shift, until 7 a.m. the following morning.

3. At Palm Gardens, most of the patient care was provided by the CNAs, so I was in a good position to judge Terri’s condition and observe her reactions. Terri was noticeable, because she was the youngest patient at Palm Gardens.

4. I know that Terri did not receive routine physical therapy or any other kind of therapy. I was personally aware of orders for rehabilitation that were not being carried out. Even though they were ordered, Michael would stop them. Michael ordered that Terri receive no rehabilitation or range of motion therapy. I and Olga would give Terri range of motion anyway, but we knew we were endangering our jobs by doing so. We usually did this behind closed doors, we were so fearful of being caught. Our hearts would race and we were always looking out for Michael, because we knew that, not only would Michael take his anger out on us, but he would take it out more on Terri. We spoke of this many times.

5. Terri had very definite likes and dislikes. Olga and I used to call Terri “Fancy Pants,” because she was so particular about certain things. She just adored her baths, and was so happy afterward when she was all clean, smelling sweet from the lotion her mother provided, and wearing the soft nightgowns her mother laundered for her. Terri definitely did not like the taste of the teeth-cleaning swabs or the mouthwash we used. She liked to have her hair combed. She did not like being tucked in, and especially hated it if her legs were tightly tucked. You would always tell when Terri had a bowel movement, as she seem agitated and would sort of “scoot” to get away from it.

6. Every day, Terri was gotten up after lunch and sat in a chair all afternoon. When Terri was in bed, she very much preferred to lie on her right side and look out the window. We always said that she was watching for her mother. It was very obvious that her mother was her favorite person in the whole world.

7. I worked side-by-side with another CNA named Olga and could tell that she and Terri were especially close. Olga took a definite personal interest in Terri, and Terri responded to her. I could tell that Terri was very satisfied and happy with Olga’s attentions to her.

8. When Olga was talking with Terri, Terri would follow Olga with her eyes. I have no doubt in my mind that Terri understood what Olga was saying to her. I could tell a definite difference between the way Terri responded to Olga and the way she reacted to me, until she got used to my taking care of her. Initially, she “clammed up” with me, the way she would with anyone she did not know or was not familiar or comfortable with. It took about the fourth or fifth time taking care of her alone, without Olga, that Terri became relaxed and cooperative and non-resistant with me.

9. Terri reacted very well to seeing a picture of her mother, which was in her room. Many times when I came on duty it would be lying face down where she could not see it.

10. At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened. I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag. Olga and I frequently put orange juice or apple juice in her washcloth to give her something nice to taste, which made her happy. On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely. I did not do it more often only because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael.

11. On one occasion Michael Schiavo arrived with his girlfriend, and they entered Terri’s room together. I heard Michael tell his girlfriend that Terri was in a persistent vegetative state and was dying. After they left, Olga told me that Terri was extremely agitated and upset, and wouldn’t react to anyone. When she was upset, which was usually the case after Michael was there, she would withdraw for hours. We were convinced that he was abusing her, and probably saying cruel, terrible things to her because she would be so upset when he left.

12. In the past, I have taken care of comatose patients, including those in a persistent vegetative state. While it is true that those patients will flinch or make sounds occasionally, they don’t do it as a reaction to someone on a constant basis who is taking care of them, the way I saw Terri do.

13. I witnessed a priest visiting Terri a couple of times. Terri would become quiet when he prayed with her. She couldn’t bow her head because of her stiff neck, but she would still try. During the prayer, she would keep her eyes closed, opening them afterward. She laughed at jokes he told her. I definitely know that Terri “is in there.”

14. The Palm Gardens staff, myself included, were just amazed that a “Do Not Resuscitate” order had been put on Terri’s chart, considering her age and her obvious cognitive awareness of her surroundings.

15. During the time I cared for Terri, she formed words. I have heard her say “mommy” from time to time, and “momma,” and she also said “help me” a number of times. She would frequently make noises like she was trying to talk. Other staff members talked about her verbalizations.

16. Several times when Michael visited Terri during my shift, he went into her room alone and closed the door. This worried me because I didn’t trust Michael. When he left, Terri was very agitated, was extremely tense with tightened fists and some times had a cold sweat. She was much less responsive than usual and would just stare out the window, her eyes kind of glassy. It would take much more time and effort than usual to work her hands open to clean her palms.

17. I was told by supervisory staff that Michael was Terri’s legal guardian, and that it didn’t matter what the parents or the doctors or nurses wanted, just do what Michael told you to do or you will lose your job. Michael would override the orders of the doctors and nurses to make sure Terri got no treatment. Among the things that Terri was deprived of by Michael’s orders were any kind of testing, dental care or stimulation. I was ordered by my supervisors to limit my time with Terri. I recall telling my supervisor that Terri seemed abnormally warm to the touch. I was told to pull her covers down, rather than to take her temperature. As far as I know, Terri never left her room. The only stimulation she had was looking out the window and watching things, and the radio, which Michael insisted be left on one particular station. She had a television, and there was a sign below it saying not to change the channel. This was because of Michael’s orders.

18. As a CNA, I wanted every piece of information I could get about my patients. I never had access to medical records as a CNA, but it was part of my job duties to write my observations down on sheets of paper, which I turned over to the nurse at the nurses station for inclusion in the patients charts. In the case of Terri Schiavo, I felt that my notes were thrown out without even being read. There were trash cans at the nurses stations that we were supposed to empty each shift, and I often saw the notes in them. I made extensive notes and listed all of Terri’s behaviors, but there was never any apparent follow up consistent with her responsiveness.

19. I discussed this situation with other personnel at Palm Gardens, particularly with Olga, and another CNA, an older black man named Ewan Morris. We all discussed the fact that we could be fired for reporting that Terri was responsive, and especially for giving her treatment. The advice among the staff was “don’t do nothin’, don’t see nothin’ and don’t say nothin’.” It was particularly distressing that we always had to be afraid that if Michael got upset, he would take his anger out on Terri.

20. I recall an incident when Olga became very upset because Terri started to get a sore spot, because it might lead to a bedsore. Michael was told about it but didn’t seem to care. He didn’t complain about it all, in fact, saying “she doesn’t know the difference.” When Terri would get a UTI or was sick, Michael’s mood would improve.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.

Heidi Law, Affiant

STATE OF FLORIDA

COUNTY OF PINELLAS



Sworn to and subscribed before me this day of September, 2003, by HEIDI LAW, who produced a Florida Driver’s License as identification.

Notary Public

My Commission expires:

http://www.hospicepatients.org/heidi-law-09-03-affidavit-re-terri-schiavo-michael.html

Nickdfresh
03-20-2005, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Sunday, March 20, 2005 10:19 a.m. EST

Nurse: Terri Can Eat Normally

A certified nursing assistant who cared for Terri Schiavo in 1997 filed a sworn affidavit in the case stating that she was able to feed Schiavo normally on multiple occasions - but that husband Michael Schiavo would allow only a feeding tube.

Heidi Law, a CNA at the Palm Gardens nursing home, testified:

"At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened. I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag.

"[Another CNA] and I frequently put orange juice or apple juice in her washcloth to give her something nice to taste, which made her happy. On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely."

Law testified that the only reason she didn't attempt to feed Ms. Schiavo more frequently was "because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael."

Editorializing on the case in light of Law's account, the Pittsburgh Post Gazette said Sunday, "It is one thing to withdraw a feeding tube; another entirely to withhold that day's meal tray."

Carla Sauer Iyer was a registered nurse at the same facility. In her own affidavit Iyer testified that Ms. Schiavo was capable of speech, explaining, "[Terri] spoke on a regular basis, saying such things as 'Mommy' and 'help me.'"

When she put a washcloth in Terri's hands to keep her fingers from curling together, Iyer said, "Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy" that he had forbidden.

"Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death," the RN noted. "Michael would say 'When is she going to die?' 'Has she died yet?' and 'When is that bitch gonna die?'"

http://ken-gilbert.com/images/newfunny/smells_like_bullshit.jpg

Fine. When they withdraw the feeding tube, she can eat on her own then.

FORD
03-20-2005, 11:09 PM
Ever see a brain full of spinal fluid before http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/CT%20scan.png
This ain't someone who's gonna be talking and eating a 4 course meal.

Warham
03-20-2005, 11:10 PM
AFFIDAVIT



STATE OF FLORIDA )

COUNTY OF PINELLAS )



BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who being first duly sworn, deposes and says:

1. My name is Carla Sauer Iyer. I am over the age of eighteen and make this statement of my own personal knowledge.

2. I am a registered nurse in the State of Florida, having been licensed continuously in Florida from 1997 to the present. Prior to that I was a Licensed Practical Nurse for about four years.

3. I was employed at Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in Largo, Florida from April of 1995 to July 1996, while Terri Schiavo was a patient there.

4. It was clear to me at Palm Gardens that all decisions regarding Terri Schiavo were made by Michael Schiavo, with no allowance made for any discussion, debate or normal professional judgment. My initial training there consisted solely of the instruction “Do what Michael Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated.” This struck me as extremely odd.

5. I was very disturbed by the decision making protocol, as no allowance whatsoever was made for professional responsibility. The atmosphere throughout the facility was dominated by Mr. Schiavo’s intimidation. Everyone there, with the exception of several people who seemed to be close to Michael, was intimidated by him. Michael Schiavo always had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as “This is my order and you’re going to follow it.” He is very large and uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you, getting right in your face and practically shouting.

6. To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens while I was there. I became concerned because nothing was being done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing. Michael said again and again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no range of motion whatsoever, or anything else. I and a CNA named Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway. One time I put a wash cloth in Terri’s hand to keep her fingers from curling together, and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy.

7. Terri’s medical condition was systematically distorted and misrepresented. When I worked with her, she was alert and oriented. Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such things as “mommy,” and “help me.” “Help me” was, in fact, one of her most frequent utterances. I heard her say it hundreds of times. Terri would try to say the word “pain” when she was in discomfort, but it came out more like “pay.” She didn’t say the “n” sound very well. During her menses she would indicate her discomfort by saying “pay” and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal area. Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or moving her legs around. She would let you know when she had a bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper.

8. When I came into her room and said “Hi, Terri”, she would always recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way toward me, saying “Haaaiiiii” sort of, as she did. I recognized this as a “hi”, which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound being only a second or two long. When I told her humorous stories about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle, sometimes more a giggle or laugh. She would move her whole body, upper and lower. Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need to be repositioned. I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart. Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri’s, someone would remove it after my shift ended. Michael always demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in her room with him. I documented Terri’s rehab potential well, writing whole pages about Terri’s responsiveness, but they would always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart. The reason I wrote so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a patients condition and their family. I upheld the Nurses Practice Act, and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that.

9. Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri’s death. Michael would say “When is she going to die?,” “Has she died yet?” and “When is that bitch gonna die?” These statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was talking to, as long as it was a staff member. Other statements which I recall him making include “Can’t you do anything to accelerate her death - won’t she ever die?” When she wouldn’t die, Michael would be furious. Michael was also adamant that the family should not be given information. He made numerous statements such as “Make sure the parents aren’t contacted.” I recorded Michael’s statements word for word in Terri’s chart, but these entries were also deleted after the end of my shift. Standing orders were that the family wasn’t to be contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they should know about their daughter.

10. Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds, pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die. He would call me, as I was the nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently asking if she was dead yet. He would blurt out “I’m going to be rich!,” and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among other things.

11. When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the door closed and locked while he was with Terri. He would typically be there about twenty minutes or so. When he left Terri would would be trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold sweats. It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I’d check her blood sugar. The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading. I would put dextrose in Terri’s mouth to counteract it. This happened about five times on my shift as I recall. Normally Terri’s blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding. It is my belief that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting.

12. The longer I was employed at Palm Gardens the more concerned I became about patient care, both relating to Terri Schiavo, for the reasons I’ve said, and other patients, too. There was an LPN named Carolyn Adams, known as “Andy” Adams who was a particular concern. An unusual number of patients seemed to die on her shift, but she was completely unconcerned, making statements such as “They are old - let them die.” I couldn’t believe her attitude or the fact that it didn’t seem to attract any attention. She made many comments about Terri being a waste of money, that she should die. She said it was costing Michael a lot of money to keep her alive, and that he complained about it constantly (I heard him complain about it all the time, too.) Both Michael and Adams said that she would be worth more to him if she were dead. I ultimately called the police relative to this situation, and was terminated the next day. Other reasons were cited, but I was convinced it was because of my “rocking the boat.”

13. Ms. Adams was one of the people who did not seem to be intimidated by Michael. In fact, they seemed to be very close, and Adams would do whatever Michael told her. Michael sometimes called Adams at night and spoke at length. I was not able to hear the content of these phone calls, but I knew it was him talking to her because she would tell me afterward and relay orders from him.

14. While at Palm Gardens, I became fearful for my personal safety. This was due to Michael’s constant intimidation, including his menacing body language, vocal tone and mannerisms.

15. I have contacted the Schindler family because I just couldn’t stand by and let Terri die without the truth being known.

FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT.

CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N.



The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this _____ day of September, 2003, by CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who produced her Florida driver’s license as identification, and who did / did not take an oath.

Notary Public

My commission expires:

http://www.terrisfight.org/documents/CIyerAffidavit090203.htm

Nickdfresh
03-20-2005, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Warham
AFFIDAVIT

STATE OF FLORIDA

COUNTY OF PINELLAS


BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared HEIDI LAW who being first duly sworn deposes and says:

1. My name is Heidi Law, I am over the age of 18 years, and make this statement on personal information.

2. I worked as a Certified Nursing Assistant at the Palm Gardens nursing home from March, 1997 to mid-summer of 1997, and I came out of the woddwork only now...

Funny how a CNA knows more than MD's in this case. What a bunch of invented, menagerie crap.

FORD
03-20-2005, 11:14 PM
Neither affidavit was signed or notarized. Therefore, they are worthless.

Cathedral
03-20-2005, 11:15 PM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Sunday, March 20, 2005 10:19 a.m. EST

Nurse: Terri Can Eat Normally

A certified nursing assistant who cared for Terri Schiavo in 1997 filed a sworn affidavit in the case stating that she was able to feed Schiavo normally on multiple occasions - but that husband Michael Schiavo would allow only a feeding tube.

Heidi Law, a CNA at the Palm Gardens nursing home, testified:

"At least three times during any shift where I took care of Terri, I made sure to give Terri a wet washcloth filled with ice chips, to keep her mouth moistened. I personally saw her swallow the ice water and never saw her gag.

"[Another CNA] and I frequently put orange juice or apple juice in her washcloth to give her something nice to taste, which made her happy. On three or four occasions I personally fed Terri small mouthfuls of Jello, which she was able to swallow and enjoyed immensely."

Law testified that the only reason she didn't attempt to feed Ms. Schiavo more frequently was "because I was so afraid of being caught by Michael."

Editorializing on the case in light of Law's account, the Pittsburgh Post Gazette said Sunday, "It is one thing to withdraw a feeding tube; another entirely to withhold that day's meal tray."

Carla Sauer Iyer was a registered nurse at the same facility. In her own affidavit Iyer testified that Ms. Schiavo was capable of speech, explaining, "[Terri] spoke on a regular basis, saying such things as 'Mommy' and 'help me.'"

When she put a washcloth in Terri's hands to keep her fingers from curling together, Iyer said, "Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy" that he had forbidden.

"Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri's death," the RN noted. "Michael would say 'When is she going to die?' 'Has she died yet?' and 'When is that bitch gonna die?'"

Hold on here, this little story is flawed because ANY nurse that does ANYTHING that is not ordered by a Doctor and BEHIND the back of the Guardian without prior approval makes the nursing facility LIABLE for a law suit.
And Michael Schiavo, If he is the MONSTER everyone says he is would have filed suit against the home for doing these things. he's only after money, remember?

I am in a constant battle with a nursing home because of aid's not doing there jobs, and if they do anything to her without MY prior knowledge, IT IS THEIR ASS.
I have a list a mile long that is in a folder if i ever choose to file suit, my case is well documented and I don't play games when my wifes care is an issue. and NO CNA EVER DOES A THING WITHOUT MY PERMISSION!

That CNA, is she still employed?
She basically just confessed to making decisions about Terri without the prior authorization of a Doctor, and permission of her LEGAL GUARDIAN.

That means, boys and girls, that this CNA is either in violation of her license to practice as a CNA, or she is a bold faced LIAR.

When was this affidavit signed?
because if what she says is true, Michael Schiavo has a case against that home now, and he can file a Civil Suit against Heidi Law if she is no longer employed by that home and she has nobody to verify her claim.

Jeez, people should be smarter than that.

In other words, I call BULLSHIT on this CNA's story.

Cathedral
03-20-2005, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Neither affidavit was signed or notarized. Therefore, they are worthless.

They are not worthless to Michael Schiavo, believe me.
Somebody screwed up BIGTIME, and that home is probably shitting their pants right now.

LAWSUIT!

And if for nothing else, he's got SLANDER on that CNA which will do what?
Say it with me...END HER CAREER AS A CNA.

rustoffa
03-20-2005, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Ever see a brain full of spinal fluid before http://www.miami.edu/ethics2/schiavo/CT%20scan.png
This ain't someone who's gonna be talking and eating a 4 course meal.

Every once in awhile, a post comes along that just rules the wastelands.

That's one of em'.

academic punk
03-20-2005, 11:32 PM
wow...so 19 judges - and the supreme court - don't know anything about law?

guys, wake up. try to pretend you're less brain-dead than terry.

rustoffa
03-20-2005, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by academic punk
wow...so 19 judges - and the supreme court - don't know anything about law?

guys, wake up. try to pretend you're less brain-dead than terry.

They interpret it.

Clarence Thomas is sexually harassing his robe.

FORD
03-20-2005, 11:36 PM
Originally posted by academic punk
wow...so 19 judges - and the supreme court - don't know anything about law?

guys, wake up. try to pretend you're less brain-dead than terry.

As I said yesterday, what this is really about is the neocon shitbags establishing the horrible, unconstitutional precedent of overthrowing a legitimate court ruling any time they please. They know the courts know law, but they don't give a shit. Because the almighty BCE/PNAC is above all laws of God AND Man.

....or at least they seem to think so.

rustoffa
03-20-2005, 11:39 PM
Originally posted by FORD
As I said yesterday, what this is really about is the neocon shitbags establishing the horrible, unconstitutional precedent of overthrowing a legitimate court ruling any time they please. They know the courts know law, but they don't give a shit. Because the almighty BCE/PNAC is above all laws of God AND Man.

....or at least they seem to think so.

That's conditional based on political climates.

Cathedral
03-20-2005, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by academic punk
wow...so 19 judges - and the supreme court - don't know anything about law?

guys, wake up. try to pretend you're less brain-dead than terry.

Yeah, they know law, and how to bastarize it at their earliest convenience.
I also know the law as far as nursing homes go, and there are some serious implications being made in these affidavits that I would persue litigation for. (at least by Ohio's standards and Residents Right's)

But then again, Michael Schiavo, i'm learning, falls under the classification of LOSER that i see everday concerning residents in one particular home.

They loved the fact that i was a nice guy, until they pissed me off by upsetting my wife. that's a "No-No" for her condition.

Cathedral
03-21-2005, 01:01 AM
AN ACT

For the relief of the parents of Theresa Marie Schiavo.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled,


SECTION 1. RELIEF OF THE PARENTS OF THERESA MARIE SCHIAVO.


The United States District Court for the Middle District of Florida shall have jurisdiction to hear, determine, and render judgment on a suit or claim by or on behalf of Theresa Marie Schiavo for the alleged violation of any right of Theresa Marie Schiavo under the Constitution or laws of the United States relating to the withholding or withdrawal of food, fluids, or medical treatment necessary to sustain her life.

SEC. 2. PROCEDURE.


Any parent of Theresa Marie Schiavo shall have standing to bring a suit under this Act. The suit may be brought against any other person who was a party to State court proceedings relating to the withholding or withdrawal of food, fluids, or medical treatment necessary to sustain the life of Theresa Marie Schiavo, or who may act pursuant to a State court order authorizing or directing the withholding or withdrawal of food, fluids, or medical treatment necessary to sustain her life. In such a suit, the District Court shall determine de novo any claim of a violation of any right of Theresa Marie Schiavo within the scope of this Act, notwithstanding any prior State court determination and regardless of whether such a claim has previously been raised, considered, or decided in State court proceedings. The District Court shall entertain and determine the suit without any delay or abstention in favor of State court proceedings, and regardless of whether remedies available in the State courts have been exhausted.

SEC. 3. RELIEF.


After a determination of the merits of a suit brought under this Act, the District Court shall issue such declaratory and injunctive relief as may be necessary to protect the rights of Theresa Marie Schiavo under the Constitution and laws of the United States relating to the withholding or withdrawal of food, fluids, or medical treatment necessary to sustain her life.

SEC. 4. TIME FOR FILING.

Notwithstanding any other time limitation, any suit or claim under this Act shall be timely if filed within 30 days after the date of enactment of this Act.

SEC. 5. NO CHANGE OF SUBSTANTIVE RIGHTS.

Nothing in this Act shall be construed to create substantive rights not otherwise secured by the Constitution and laws of the United States or of the several States.

SEC. 6. NO EFFECT ON ASSISTING SUICIDE.

Nothing in this Act shall be construed to confer additional jurisdiction on any court to consider any claim related--
(1) to assisting suicide, or
(2) a State law regarding assisting suicide.

SEC. 7. NO PRECEDENT FOR FUTURE LEGISLATION.

Nothing in this Act shall constitute a precedent with respect to future legislation, including the provision of private relief bills.

SEC. 8. NO AFFECT ON THE PATIENT SELF-DETERMINATION ACT OF 1990.

Nothing in this Act shall affect the rights of any person under the Patient Self- Determination Act of 1990.

SEC. 9. SENSE OF THE CONGRESS.

It is the Sense of Congress that the 109th Congress should consider policies regarding the status and legal rights of incapacitated individuals who are incapable of making decisions concerning the provision, withholding, or withdrawal of foods, fluid, or medical care.

Cathedral
03-21-2005, 01:03 AM
By the way, C-Span is covering this "Special Session" Live...

Cathedral
03-21-2005, 01:49 AM
And so it goes, the game of "abortion politics" has officially begun.
That's all this was, was abortion politics.

They have just over stepped their power and used a private family matter to do so, and it was unconstitutional at that.

I officially abandon the Republican Party as i type this, FUCK 'EM...

Now, lets hope this gets thrown out of court and Terri is allowed to be with God.

Fucking Pathetic, I'm out.....................

Ally_Kat
03-21-2005, 03:06 AM
I can't get the link to work, but I figured I'd throw this you guys' way

Terri Responsive!
Sunday March 20, 8:40 pm ET
- FRC Has Exclusive Audio Tapes from Terri's Room


WASHINGTON, DC, March 20-- Family Research Council has obtained an exclusive audio file from Terri Schiavo's hospital room on Friday afternoon, approximately two hours after her feeding tube was removed. Her father is asking her questions and she is audibly responding to him. The audio file can be found at http://www.frc.org .



As Terri begins day three of being denied food and water, Congressional leaders have been working to hammer out a bill that could spare her life. The Senate has advanced a measure that is solely focused on Terri Schiavo. The House was poised to approve the same measure this afternoon until some Democratic members objected. By employing delaying parliamentary tactics as Terri's life ebbs away, these Democratic members are requiring the full House to meet and vote on the measure just after midnight tonight.

Tony Perkins, President of Family Research Council, released the following statement:

"This authentic audio file is disturbing to hear, but it is certainly testimony that Terri Schiavo is NOT in a 'persistent vegetative state'.

"This is no time for partisan politics. Congress has a responsibility to protect the rights of American citizens and among those rights is the right to live. If Congress fails to act in time, Terri's demise will be the legacy of those Democratic members who have chosen to march to the beat of the radical, anti-life drumbeat of the left. A generation ago conscientious members of Congress declared it the nation's business never to let a single American child go to bed hungry at night. It is no less the nation's business to ensure that no handicapped woman is deliberately starved and dehydrated to death.

"Understand, this measure is obviously a matter of life and death for Terri, but it is also critically important for all Americans who are unable to care for themselves.

"I commend the leadership of the House of Representatives and the Senate who have shown extraordinary compassion for Terri Schiavo and her family in the attempt to save her from a judicial execution."

FORD
03-21-2005, 03:13 AM
Why can't a reputable news organization find any of this alleged "evidence" that she's not a veggie?

Obviously what was posted at NewsHax was a fraud. Now we got the Pat Robertson Moonie Research Council jumping in. Can the Mush Limpdick Oxycontin induced hallucination of Terri walking on water with JC be far behind?

Sorry, I'm not buying it. If they had "evidence" of the woman being anything other than an eggplant then why hasn't it come up at any time in the previous 15 years??

Ally_Kat
03-21-2005, 03:18 AM
I don't know all the facts of the case cuz I have my own thing I'm dealing with here, but I did see a news clip where she was sitting up smiling and looking around the room.

She didn't look too lifeless to me. Hell, she looked better than my father did back in December.

FORD
03-21-2005, 03:28 AM
Here's a press release from the same right wing organization earlier this month. Note that they make no claims of her condition being anything other than what is documented in the record


Family Research Council: Future Legislation Aimed at Saving Terri Schiavo
Sen. Mel Martinez (R-FL) and Rep. David Weldon (R-FL) Introduce Incapacitated Person's Legal Protection Act

To: National Desk

Contact: Amber Hildebrand of the Family Research Council, 202-393-2100

WASHINGTON, March 8 /Christian Wire Service/ -- Today, Senator Mel Martinez (R-FL) and Congressman David Weldon (R-FL) introduced legislation that could save the life of Terri Schiavo, who suffered a brain injury 15 years ago. The Incapacitated Person's Legal Protection Act (HR 1151, S 539) will give Terri, and those in similar situations, the same Constitutional protection of due process as death row inmates, common sense legislation. Presently, the law does not explicitly recognize due process for an incapacitated individual and leaves the rights of disabled persons at the mercy of the courts instead of defended by the Constitution.

The Incapacitated Person's Legal Protection Act will not apply to circumstances where an advance medical directive is in effect. The Act simply provides a final avenue of review of the case to insure that a disabled person's Constitutional rights of due process are maintained and that justice is done.

"Dr. Weldon's legislation would allow Terri to have her own counsel that can argue her case, a right given to any criminal in the United States, and Terri not a criminal but a woman truly fighting for her life," says Tony Perkins, President of Family Research Council.

"The disabled deserve due process," continues Perkins. "In the United States we don't execute people without due process and we shouldn't execute the incapacitated by starvation. Beyond being cruel and unusual punishment, this is an opportunity for Congress to finally check the power of runaway courts."

"We commend Senator Martinez and Congressman Weldon for taking the initiative and acknowledging a vital inconsistency in the process by which our courts determine the fate of those who cannot speak for themselves."

Tony Perkins is available for interview. Please contact Amber Hildebrand in the FRC press office 202.393.2100.

If they had any evidence to the contrary that would help Martinez and Weldon make their case, surely they would have produced it at that time.

The Pat Robertson crowd has been whining about "runaway courts" and "judicial activism" for years, but especially since the Texas sodomy law was thrown out and the Massachussettes court legalized gay marriage. All the while ignoring the worst case of judicial activism ever in this country, the one that took place in the Supreme Court on 12/12/2000.

Court after court after court has ruled in this case for the last 15 years, and if there were any real evidence that the poor woman was anything other than a hollow shell, then there has been plenty of opportunity to present that evidence. They have not done so.

Which makes all this last minute flood of questionable "evidence" from sources who are known liars just a little bit hard to take seriously.

tomballin
03-21-2005, 03:33 AM
WASHINGTON Mar 21, 2005 — President Bush signed emergency legislation sent to him by Congress early Monday to allow Terri Schiavo's parents ask a federal judge to prolong their daughter's life, capping days of emotional debate over who should decide life and death.

"In cases like this one, where there are serious questions and substantial doubts, our society, our laws and our courts should have a presumption in favor of life," Bush said in a statement after signing the bill.

After flying back to Washington from his Texas ranch, Bush had waited at the White House to sign the measure permitting a federal review of the case, which could trigger the reinsertion of feeding tubes needed to keep the brain-damaged Florida woman alive.

The House passed the bill on a 203-58 vote after calling lawmakers back for an emergency Sunday session for debate that stretched past midnight.

The measured was backed by 156 Republicans to 5 who voted against it and 71 who did not vote; 47 Democrats voted in favor, 53 against and 102 did not vote. The lone independent in the 435 member house did not vote.

The Senate approved the bill Sunday by voice vote.

Republican supporters said the "Palm Sunday Compromise" seeks to protect the constitutional rights of a disabled person and rejected suggestions that political motives lay behind the last-minute maneuver.

"When a person's intentions regarding whether to receive lifesaving treatment are unclear, the responsibility of a compassionate nation is to affirm that person's right to life," said House Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner, R-Wis. "In our deeds and public actions, we must build a culture of life that welcomes and defends all human life."

FORD
03-21-2005, 03:38 AM
What a crock of shit... warmongering hypocrites babbling about "affirming life" :rolleyes:

tomballin
03-21-2005, 05:17 AM
Comment on new Terri’s Federal Review Law:

This is a horrible test case, than many in the PVS lobby will not touch. But all the PVS lobby wants out of this deal is a Federal protection law, that when you have a situation like this mired down in a State with screwed up protections laws, and in a screwed up Probate Court situation, (if you have ever been involved in a screwed up Probate issue, you know what I am talking about, and remember Probate issues are the most expensive of ALL court litigation), that the case can be appealed in a Federal venue for injunctive relief, and final decision.

Didn’t get it here with this “Terri’s Bill” federal piece of junk law.

The PVS lobby believes that if death row prisoners have this Federal protection “relief valve”, then so should PVS’s and their families in the final life and death decision process.

This whole deal is not about logic, science or anything else imo. For many in the PVS lobby it’s a highly emotionally charged pro-choice, and somewhat pro-religion issue.

For many it’s also a pro-life issue, but I don’t agree. There is no reason to keep terminally brain dead people alive for no reason other than a loved one cannot “let go”. There is no reason to try voodoo and junk medical science on PVS’s because a loved on cannot “let go”

Of course, many of these loved ones expect the taxpayers to pay for all this, which also upsets me off. You want to keep your PVS daughter in the bedroom for 10 – 40 years, fine. But get your checkbook out, and be able to financially support your highly personal agenda. Many good family’s of PVS’s work 2, 3, 4 jobs just to pay their medical bills.

The record currently is 44 years that a PVS person has lived, and that person is currently still alive. Pretty wild, imo. The medical establishment thinks there is only 10-20,000 PVS out their. The number is closer to 250,000 – 300,000 because there is no formal accounting for these people, and many dropped out of the medical system’s radar years ago.

Strange, but Terri could actually live longer as a PVS, than in her pre-collaspe life due to her very serious bulimia nervosa disease. Her internal vital functions are good, and she is extremely tough.

I personally do not like the Schindler’s (Terri’s parents, actually her mother and sister are good people, NOT her father), but if it was your daughter and you knew in your heart

1) that her worthless husband abused her,
2) was personally co-responsible for the disease that caused her to become PVS,
3) then hid behind screwed up State Laws, in a court situation where he has sealed all the records, so you cannot even get at the real facts, in a bid to end her life……..

if you were a good parent, you would be fighting to get your daughter back, just like in this situation. If I am Terri’s parent, if anyone is going to make the decision to let her go, it’s going to be me, not this maggot husband she unfortunately got mixed up with that has significant contributing liability for her demise.

Frankly, it’s all that simple, and why this issue will not go away after all these years.

Roth On

Warham
03-21-2005, 07:30 AM
The measured was backed by 156 Republicans to 5 who voted against it and 71 who did not vote; 47 Democrats voted in favor, 53 against and 102 did not vote. The lone independent in the 435 member house did not vote.

BigBadBrian
03-21-2005, 08:12 AM
Originally posted by FORD
As I said yesterday, what this is really about is the neocon shitbags establishing the horrible, unconstitutional precedent of overthrowing a legitimate court ruling any time they please. They know the courts know law, but they don't give a shit. Because the almighty BCE/PNAC is above all laws of God AND Man.

....or at least they seem to think so.

Gee...


A court legislating from the bench...but not from the liberal agenda. How horrible. :rolleyes:

Nickdfresh
03-21-2005, 08:35 AM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Gee...


A court legislating from the bench...but not from the liberal agenda. How horrible. :rolleyes:

I didn't know Congress was in the judicial branch. It was already decided in court, the FLORIDA STATE Courts! What is the Federal Gov't now going to waste time on every right-to-die case.


BTW, I hope Congress and the Bush Administration don't limit their medical malpractice damage awards, after all, money is what this is really about!;)

tomballin
03-21-2005, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by FORD
As I said yesterday, what this is really about is the neocon shitbags establishing the horrible, unconstitutional precedent of overthrowing a legitimate court ruling any time they please. They know the courts know law, but they don't give a shit. Because the almighty BCE/PNAC is above all laws of God AND Man.

....or at least they seem to think so.


Anyone that thinks a federal law does not need to exist, to allow a federal court’s review in matters like this, I have ZERO respect for as a human being.

Florida's legal system totally failed in protecting Terri Schiavo’s rights as a totally disabled person, and to protect her life. It’s interesting how we always have problems like this in Florida. This situation could not have happened in most other states in this fine country.

We'd have more sympathy for this argument if the same liberals who are complaining about the federal courts reviewing Terri’s case felt as strongly about restraining the federal judiciary when it comes to abortion, homosexuality, and other social issues they don't want to trust to local communities.

In any event, these critics betray their lack of understanding of the meaning of federalism. It is not simply about "states' rights." Conservatives support states' rights in areas that are not delegated to the federal government but they also support federal power in areas that are delegated.

Think of an analogy to the writ of habeas corpus. "We have federal court review of state court judgments all the time in the criminal law context." The bill signed by President Bush essentially treats the Florida judgment as a death sentence, warranting federal habeas review.

I believe that is quite simple to understand, without all the unintelligent fanfare, in this situation.

The "right to die" has become another liberal cause, part of the "privacy" canon that extends through Roe (abortion) and Lawrence (homosexuality) and the Ninth Circuit's views on assisted suicide that the Supreme Court is taking up this year.

Of course, it gets a little messy when someone is actually being killed, and a husband with a conflict of interest is the one who claims she wanted to kill herself, but the liberals apparently believes these are mere details that shouldn't interfere with the broader cause. Thus their cry of federalism.

I have said this over a hundred times in this case. If Terri Schiavo actually made the statement Michael Schaivo alleges, why did he NEVER make this allegation in the physicians’ malpractice trial, when he was under oath, and under discovery.

I have also said over a hundred times in this case, Terri has been totally denied due process in this matter. Unseal the court records, move the case out of Florida’s worthless and totally corrupt Probate Court System, and let her legal team do proper due diligence and discovery. Murderers and everyone else get this right before the Bar, should people like Terri be exempt?

Let the public understand all the true facts, before we put her to death, and Michael Schiavo has her body cremated.

tomballin
03-21-2005, 09:47 AM
>>She will never get any better, let her go.

There are 100’s of thousands of totally disabled people in this fine Country, that will never get any better, and never provide any real productive value to the Country.

For a Probate judge to effectively rule, well if she cannot get any better, kill her, is beyond absurd.

This would effectively say we should round up all the 100’s of thousands of totally disabled in this great Country and kill them because they provide no value, and never will.

Does the world really want a resurgence of State directed Nazism, in our own backyard?

academic punk
03-21-2005, 10:28 AM
Let me just say for the record, if I so much as stub my toe, please kill me.

FORD
03-21-2005, 10:37 AM
Originally posted by tomballin


There are 100’s of thousands of totally disabled people in this fine Country, that will never get any better, and never provide any real productive value to the Country.

There's a difference between "disabled" and "brain dead". Stephen Hawking's body is mostly useless, but there's no question that the rest of his brain functions perfectly well. Terry Schiavo's cerebal cortex is GONE. She has nothing left but the most basic brain stem functions. The condition is not reversible, brains do not grow back.


Does the world really want a resurgence of State directed Nazism, in our own backyard?

Does the world want it? No. But apparenly 50.8% of the American voters didn't have a problem with it :(

tomballin
03-21-2005, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by FORD
Does the world want it? No. But apparenly 50.8% of the American voters didn't have a problem with it :(

48.2% of them don't understand this extremely complex issue.

But, rest easy Ford, the Florida Federal Judge over the case is a 1999 Clinton appointee.

Roth On


============

T. Schiavo Update: Three New Lawsuits Filed

1. The Bush administration formally entered the legal fray, as Justice Department lawyers filed court documents in U.S. District Court in support of legal efforts to keep Schiavo alive, a senior Justice Department official.

2. Based on the new law signed by President Bush, the parents of Terri Schiavo asked a judge to reinsert the brain-damaged woman's feeding tube Monday. An attorney for Schiavo's parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, arrived at federal district court in Tampa and filed a request for an emergency injunction to keep their daughter fed.

3. Their attorney, Mr. Gibbs also filed a civil rights lawsuit in federal court in Tampa as allowed under the new law. He said the suit names Michael Schiavo as a defendant. Also listed as defendants are George Greer, the circuit judge who presides over the case, and Hospice Woodside, where Terri Schiavo lives.

Note: #3 was Michael Schiavo's worst nightmare. ALL the records will get opened up, and nothing done at the State level can be relied on. It's a whole new trial, and in Federal Civil Court, not that totally screwed up and corrupt Florida Probate Court.

MS is on Larry King Live tonight for anyone interested.

Guitar Shark
03-21-2005, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Gee...


A court legislating from the bench...but not from the liberal agenda. How horrible. :rolleyes:

Courts are SUPPOSED to decide Constitutional issues like this (i.e., the right to die), NOT the legislature. That is what is so offensive about Congress's latest action.

In addition to the obvious pandering to the religious right, Congress is also irked at the suggestion that it doesn't have the power to control the outcome. When the Florida judge rejected Congress's first attempt to run the show, they got pissed and decided it was time for all out war. This is also why some Democrats joined the fight. It's a separation of powers issue. Congress thinks it knows better than the courts what the Constitution permits.

This whole thing is just disgraceful. We are living in a theocracy, and it sucks. Also, the fact that this story about ONE WOMAN can dominate the news headlines for DAYS, when we have so many other important issues to attend to, is disgusting.

FORD
03-21-2005, 12:34 PM
Nah, this ain't a political issue :rolleyes:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20050321/mdf903188.jpg
Senator James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) (L) and Terri Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050321/capt.dclj10603210615.brain_damaged_woman_congress_ dclj106.jpg
House Majority Leader Tom Delay, R-Texas, left, and Bobby Schindler, the brother of Terri Schiavo, pose for pictures outside the House Chamber, Monday, March 21, 2005, in Washington. (AP Photo/Lawrence Jackson)

SCHINDLER, ROBERT
RUSKIN, FL 33570
QUICKKURB INC
THUNE, JOHN (R)
Senate - SD
JOHN THUNE FOR US SENATE $250
general 10/27/04

Schindler, Robert J.
Ruskin, FL 33570
Qwick Kurb Inc./president
HARRIS, KATHERINE (R)
House (FL 13)
FRIENDS OF KATHERINE HARRIS $500
general 10/06/04

SCHINDLER, ROBERT J MR.
ANNA MARIA, FL 34216
QWICK KURB INC./PRESIDENT BUSH, GEORGE W (R)
President
BUSH-CHENEY '04 (PRIMARY) INC $200
primary 08/13/04

Schindler, Robert J.
Ruskin, FL 33570
Qwick Kurb Inc./president
HARRIS, KATHERINE (R)
House (FL 13)
FRIENDS OF KATHERINE HARRIS $1,200
primary 08/04/04

Nope, no politics to see here.....

tomballin
03-21-2005, 12:43 PM
Good Post Ford. The internet is such an interesting place.

Hearing on the feeding tube being re-inserted is not until 3:00 PM EST this afternoon.

I think the Judge had to go get his shoes shined :-)

Cathedral
03-21-2005, 04:47 PM
Does anyone have a record of which Congressmen voted Yeah and Ney?

I can't seem to find a record of last night's vote anywhere, or i'm just not looking in the right place, fuck, i dunno.

Thanks!

Ally_Kat
03-21-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by Warham
The measured was backed by 156 Republicans to 5 who voted against it and 71 who did not vote; 47 Democrats voted in favor, 53 against and 102 did not vote. The lone independent in the 435 member house did not vote.

102 Democrats didn't vote?!

academic punk
03-21-2005, 04:51 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Nah, this ain't a political issue :rolleyes:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/nm/20050321/mdf903188.jpg
Senator James Sensenbrenner (R-WI) (L) and Terri Schiavo's brother, Bobby Schindler

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050321/capt.dclj10603210615.brain_damaged_woman_congress_ dclj106.jpg
House Majority Leader Tom Delay, R-Texas, left, and Bobby Schindler, the brother of Terri Schiavo, pose for pictures outside the House Chamber, Monday, March 21, 2005, in Washington. (AP Photo/Lawrence Jackson)

SCHINDLER, ROBERT
RUSKIN, FL 33570
QUICKKURB INC
THUNE, JOHN (R)
Senate - SD
JOHN THUNE FOR US SENATE $250
general 10/27/04

Schindler, Robert J.
Ruskin, FL 33570
Qwick Kurb Inc./president
HARRIS, KATHERINE (R)
House (FL 13)
FRIENDS OF KATHERINE HARRIS $500
general 10/06/04

SCHINDLER, ROBERT J MR.
ANNA MARIA, FL 34216
QWICK KURB INC./PRESIDENT BUSH, GEORGE W (R)
President
BUSH-CHENEY '04 (PRIMARY) INC $200
primary 08/13/04

Schindler, Robert J.
Ruskin, FL 33570
Qwick Kurb Inc./president
HARRIS, KATHERINE (R)
House (FL 13)
FRIENDS OF KATHERINE HARRIS $1,200
primary 08/04/04

Nope, no politics to see here.....


In fairness, of course the Schindlers are contributing to these campaigns and offices.

Just as I can guarantee you that Schiavo is not.

FORD
03-21-2005, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
Does anyone have a record of which Congressmen voted Yeah and Ney?

I can't seem to find a record of last night's vote anywhere, or i'm just not looking in the right place, fuck, i dunno.

Thanks!

Here's a link (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll090.xml) to the roll call vote in the House.

Senate vote is easy enough to document. Only three senators showed up to vote

Santorum (R- PA)
Frist (R- Cat Killer)
and for some fucked up reason
Harkin (D - Iowa)

All 3 voted "yea" so Asshole Delay called it a "unanimous vote" of the Senate :rolleyes:

FORD
03-21-2005, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by academic punk
In fairness, of course the Schindlers are contributing to these campaigns and offices.

Just as I can guarantee you that Schiavo is not.

I looked up Michael Schiavo's name and he had no contributions listed at all. If he had anything to list, I would have done so.

academic punk
03-21-2005, 05:00 PM
Here is my reaction to the way the House voted last night:

The Dems look like a bunch of assholes. Republicans voted in near unity for their agenda.

Now I understand that the Dems really didn't have an agenda on this - this was manufactured into a political issue, but still they should have organized themselves enough to have a more unified stance. Instead, they were pretty much perfectly divided.

As I'm writing this, I'm wondering if the Republican rhetoric of the Dems not knowing what they stand for or what their party is about is more valid and has more creedence than I was previously affording it.

And what's worse, the Dems who did vote "For" on this should've at least had the balls to get up and speak and define and articluate their stance.

Where was Dean on this??? As head of the DNC, and, more importantly, a DOCTOR, he should have been all over the news networks expressing his views, and he should have organized the House Dems into a more coherent vision and vote.

(and for those who didn't show up for the vote, drop dead. Do your fucking job, either way your voting. Your job is to REPRESENT: DO SO!!!)

academic punk
03-21-2005, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by FORD
I looked up Michael Schiavo's name and he had no contributions listed at all. If he had anything to list, I would have done so.


Which also makes sense: no em was turning this shit into a political issue, and those that did, were merely following the Republican rhetoric.

I guanantee that man is feeling completely disenfranchised by his country, and if and when this ever ends will either become as political as a person can, or completely apathetic. And I'm hedging towards the latter.

Cathedral
03-21-2005, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Here's a link (http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2005/roll090.xml) to the roll call vote in the House.

Senate vote is easy enough to document. Only three senators showed up to vote

Santorum (R- PA)
Frist (R- Cat Killer)
and for some fucked up reason
Harkin (D - Iowa)

All 3 voted "yea" so Asshole Delay called it a "unanimous vote" of the Senate :rolleyes:

Thanks, Ford!

Well, I hope we'll be saying goodbye to John A. Boehner next year.
He's our rep for this district, and he took part in this unprecidented and unconstitutional sham.

Kucinich didn't vote, which pisses me off because he should have gone on record one way or the other.

I was let down by both a Republican and a Democrat in this freakin shit hole.

Look folks, I feel very much for Terri Schiavo and the mess she is in the middle of. But i also feel strongly that her soul is trapped in a body she cannot express herself in.
It was a state matter to deal with this highly personal and devastatingly painful issue. Congressional Republicans and Democrats did a great injustice to the entire country by their actions on this matter.

Tomballin, I don't give a rats ass if you respect me or not. Everything you posted about both her parents and her husband being worthless just cemented my belief that she would be better off with God.

God is Terri's best option if i had to make a choice based on YOUR posts alone. But i'm not, I have my own principles and standards to apply here. I am, however, very confident that what i think about any of this will not make any damn difference one way or the other.

I would just like to see Terri rest in peace once and for all. 15 years of hell is enough for both sides of the family, period.

But i'll add this, Tom....none of this has diminished any of my respect for you at all. mainly becaue i don't have any because i don't even know who the fuck you are.
But i do however admire your conviction and principles and only offer prayers for you disabled relative.

Roth On!

tomballin
03-21-2005, 05:41 PM
Originally posted by FORD
I looked up Michael Schiavo's name and he had no contributions listed at all. If he had anything to list, I would have done so.

Michael "Scott Peter-son's twin brother" Schiavo does everything through his live-in/love-in girl friend's name, or Geroge Felos et. al. interests.

============

Hey Ford:

Since you are good with that political contribution search engine, then I presume you know that Tom “The Hammer” DeLay’s single largest money supporter is Houston homebuilder Bob Perry, et. al., a major league right wing ultra conservative Christian fascist.

DeLay and Perry are like Mutt and Jeff. If one is around, the other cannot be to far away, although Perry always stays out of the public’s view, and let’s someone else do his dirty work.

Funny how DeLay wouldn’t get close to the TV cameras and the press, because of his criminal grand jury investigation in Houston. Now you cannot get the guy off the stage.

That grand jury has issued close to 100 subpoenas in their investigation, even DeLay’s daughter was hit with one.

Roth On

#############

Official R.A. Member Slave’s co-mascot:

Rodney "Why Can't We Just All Get Along?" King

http://img124.exs.cx/img124/4527/rkingx28nn.jpg

tomballin
03-21-2005, 05:45 PM
Yeah, but Hillary is going to be the Dems "Great White Hope" in '08 AP, baaawaaaa!


Originally posted by academic punk
Here is my reaction to the way the House voted last night:

The Dems look like a bunch of assholes. Republicans voted in near unity for their agenda.

Now I understand that the Dems really didn't have an agenda on this - this was manufactured into a political issue, but still they should have organized themselves enough to have a more unified stance. Instead, they were pretty much perfectly divided.

As I'm writing this, I'm wondering if the Republican rhetoric of the Dems not knowing what they stand for or what their party is about is more valid and has more creedence than I was previously affording it.

And what's worse, the Dems who did vote "For" on this should've at least had the balls to get up and speak and define and articluate their stance.

Where was Dean on this??? As head of the DNC, and, more importantly, a DOCTOR, he should have been all over the news networks expressing his views, and he should have organized the House Dems into a more coherent vision and vote.

(and for those who didn't show up for the vote, drop dead. Do your fucking job, either way your voting. Your job is to REPRESENT: DO SO!!!)

tomballin
03-21-2005, 05:57 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
Thanks, Ford!
Tomballin, I don't give a rats ass if you respect me or not. Everything you posted about both her parents and her husband being worthless just cemented my belief that she would be better off with God.


Such short term memory Cat. I said I greatly respected your opinions, you were a great Mod here at R.A. imo, and I was very serious about that.

It's just a forum, and we are just shooting the shite here.

I also think Terri would be better off with God, net-net, again as I posted earlier.

AND

Dispense some Sicilian style justice to Michael Schiavo & George Felos

SO

we can all get back to what’s important,,,,,,,,sex, drugs, and fooking R & R.

That’s my formal postion in this matter. This Country has become too civilized for it’s own good, imo.

#########################


Official R.A. Members Slave’s Co-Mascot

The Spirit of Rick "Super Freak" James (RIP-2004)

http://i140.exs.cx/img140/9477/rickjamesx418qu.jpg

RJ Super Freakisms: (Takes Rothisms to a whole new level)

"I wish I had more hands, so I could give those titties four thumbs down" (The milk gones bad!) - RJ

"What did the five fingers say to the face.......SLAP!" - RJ

"I'm Rick James..bitch" (Show me some titties)" - RJ

"I'm one of the baddest motherfuckers of all times. I'm one of the best singers and best looking motherfuckers you've ever seen…..Hold my drink bitch" - RJ

and of course the RJ famous classic.

"Cocaine is one helluva drug" - RJ

tomballin
03-21-2005, 06:22 PM
From reading this POS law Bush signed, I don’t think there is anyway in hell it will hold up in the courts. They will knock it down just like they did that POS Terri’s Law that Jeb Bush signed in 2003. The new law is highly flawed on several legal fronts, imo, not that I am an attorney or anything.

This is all the Florida’s Legislatures fault. In 2003, the original drafters of the law Micheal Peterson, I mean Schiavo is using to gun down Terri, said the law was flawed, they never intended for something like this Terri Schiavo situation to happen, AND the judicial branch was interpretating the law incorrectly, based on the intent of the Legislature. I still got the video & audio, of these Legislatures making these statements to the public. They promised to fix this flawed law last year, yet still today, they have done zero.

Again, we must understand, this situation with Terri would not be happening in many other states in this fine Country.

I noticed the Federal Judge hearing Terri’s case currently, fined some guy $90,000 for cutting down a tree with a Federally protected Eagle’s nest in it. Gotta protect those scavenger birds, righteo.

I guess everyone knows that in the U.S. a veterinarian cannot legally starve an animal to death. End of life or not. People, shite go for it. Let's all party down and get stoned cold white.

Cathedral
03-21-2005, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by tomballin
Such short term memory Cat. I said I greatly respected your opinions, you were a great Mod here at R.A. imo, and I was very serious about that.

It's just a forum, and we are just shooting the shite here.

I also think Terri would be better off with God, net-net, again as I posted earlier.

AND

Dispense some Sicilian style justice to Michael Schiavo & George Felos

SO

we can all get back to what’s important,,,,,,,,sex, drugs, and fooking R & R.

That’s my formal postion in this matter. This Country has become too civilized for it’s own good, imo.

#########################


Official R.A. Members Slave’s Co-Mascot

The Spirit of Rick "Super Freak" James (RIP-2004)

http://i140.exs.cx/img140/9477/rickjamesx418qu.jpg

RJ Super Freakisms: (Takes Rothisms to a whole new level)

"I wish I had more hands, so I could give those titties four thumbs down" (The milk gones bad!) - RJ

"What did the five fingers say to the face.......SLAP!" - RJ

"I'm Rick James..bitch" (Show me some titties)" - RJ

"I'm one of the baddest motherfuckers of all times. I'm one of the best singers and best looking motherfuckers you've ever seen…..Hold my drink bitch" - RJ

and of course the RJ famous classic.

"Cocaine is one helluva drug" - RJ

Oh, my bad, I was referring to the HUMAN BEING part of your post, lol.
Your opinions on this are very respectable to, so i find myself in agreement wit ya.

You'll have to forgive me today, I'm in a shitty mood but trying not to let it out in the wrong directions.
I had to take a bath is piss twice today at the nursing home, i could explain more but it would only gross everyone out.

Roth On!

kentuckyklira
03-21-2005, 06:49 PM
www.churchofeuthanasia.org

DLR'sCock
03-21-2005, 08:56 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
And so it goes, the game of "abortion politics" has officially begun.
That's all this was, was abortion politics.

They have just over stepped their power and used a private family matter to do so, and it was unconstitutional at that.

I officially abandon the Republican Party as i type this, FUCK 'EM...

Now, lets hope this gets thrown out of court and Terri is allowed to be with God.

Fucking Pathetic, I'm out.....................


Like you never saw this coming? I saw this miles away....

tomballin
03-21-2005, 09:48 PM
The U.S. Congress and the Florida Legislature have placed Judge Whittemore in a highly untenable position, that makes it extremely difficult for him to make a decision in support of Terri's cause, yet uphold the laws and his responsibilities as he is legally bound.

It would not surprise me if he turns the request down and in all honestly, I believe it would be the right decision, even though I don’t like it.

Damn that law Bush signed is a POS.


===========

U.S. Judge in Schiavo Case Withholds Ruling for Now (Update3)

March 21 -- A federal judge declined for now to order a feeding tube reinserted in Terri Schiavo, the Florida woman who suffered brain damage 15 years ago and has become the focus of a national political debate on the right to die.

U.S. District Judge James Whittemore, after hearing arguments for about two hours in Tampa, gave no indication of how soon he may act on a request by Schiavo's parents to order the tube inserted. The tubes were removed three days ago, and medical experts, who say Schiavo is in vegetative state, may be able to survive for about two weeks without nourishment or water.

``I will not tell you when, how or how long it will take'' to rule, Whittemore said.

Today's hearing was prompted by an extraordinary post- midnight session of Congress aimed at authorizing the federal courts to intercede. President George W. Bush signed the measure early today.

Whittemore ordered lawyers for Schiavo's parents to file legal briefs in support of their claim that the new law is constitutional. ``Get it done as soon as you can,'' he said.

Tubes hydrating and feeding Schiavo, 41, were removed on orders of a Florida state judge.

1999 President Bill Clinton Appointee Judge Whittemore, a former Florida state judge, was asked to order the reinsertion of the tubes while he reviews the case.

``If Mrs. Schiavo is dead, she will have no liberty and due process.'' her parents attorney stated.

$$$

FORD
03-21-2005, 10:16 PM
http://www.bartcop.com/dover-schiavo.jpg

Warham
03-21-2005, 10:20 PM
Weak.

Cathedral
03-21-2005, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by DLR'sCock
Like you never saw this coming? I saw this miles away....

Well, I could use the excuse that a sheep can't see any farther than the Shephard leading them, but i won't insult the party as a whole because it has flawed leadership, lol.

I'll tell you what i never saw coming though, and that is a day when i actually have more in common with a Democrat.

But only those Democrats that bothered to do their job and cast a NO vote for an unconstitutional bill centered around one human being that totally trampled the right's of a spouse's legal authority and a states legal court rulings.
The non-voters should be recalled for disenfranchising their constituants and not standing up for what they believe in or representing those who share their position.

The moment Congress did that it stopped being about Terri, and it started being about politics, abuse of power, a precedent that WILL be used in the future to proceed with an agenda i actually agree with, but cannot support the means in which it was accomplished.

I do however have confidence that the Federal Court will rule the bill uconstitutional and uphold the states decision.
But even then, it won't erase the mindset of intrusion that the party I have supported since i was of legal age decided to stick their nose into and throw out the legal guardianship that i happen to have myself.

Here's what i predict: I predict that after this all blows over and the outcome is whatever it is decided to be, Jeb Bush will be placed upon the shoulders of the Republican Party as some kind of Hero that the Christian Right will flock to.
I believe this ploy will ultimately fail because the Republicans underestimated the people that cast votes for them in the first place.

What i mean by that is, I don't know anyone personally in my circle of Conservative Voting Friends that isn't outraged by the steamrolling that happened last night.
And in my humbled opinion, next years elections will see a shift in the trend, and the Republicans will, or at least they should by all Constitutional Accounts, lose their jobs for, as a direct result of the "Terri's Law" power grab.

And for those who hate Michael Schiavo they should be glad to know that Terri's friends who are claiming that Terri stated her wishes against a life like this are NOT in Michael's corner for Michaels sake.
They have been very vocal about how he treated her which is where i was hoping to be justified in my own feelings about it.
My conflict came from the fact that Terri didn't choose Michael as her guardian because she was not able to do so.
In my own personal situation, MY WIFE VERBALLY chose me to be hers.

Bottom line her is simple, if it was Terri's wish NOT to continue living as a vegetable, and there is evidence to that effect BEYOND what her husband states, then I am all for her wishes being granted.

And if there is any good that comes from this being steamrolled into a Federal court, it will be that the records have been opened, and he will get what is coming to him for any wrong doing on his part.

Justice For All, isn't that what our Constitution states is EVERYONE'S right?
But it will NOT excuse the tactics the Republican Party used to bring about that justice. Their motives were based on something completely different than that, and I will not credit them with that political accomplishment.
I will hold them accountable with MY VOTE by voting them out of office.

End of Story....................

Warham
03-21-2005, 11:39 PM
I don't see the Republicans losing anything, since the Democrats have nothing to gain out of it. Notice that the big time libs like Kerry, Clinton, and Kennedy hardly made a peep? They have nothing to gain from this either way it turns out.

If anything, the Republicans will continue to garner the votes from those that will remember this story six months from now, and that's the red-state conservative Christian voters who are pro-life.

Even the Vatican has chimed in on the side of her parents, and you know how many Catholics hold the Vatican like it's the throne of God on Earth...

LoungeMachine
03-21-2005, 11:48 PM
Law Bush signed as Texas governor prompts cries of hypocrisy

BY WILLIAM DOUGLAS

Knight Ridder Newspapers


WASHINGTON - (KRT) - The federal law that President Bush signed early Monday in an effort to prolong Terri Schiavo's life appears to contradict a right-to-die law that he signed as Texas governor, prompting cries of hypocrisy from congressional Democrats and some bioethicists.




NOW READ THIS PART

In 1999, then-Gov. Bush signed the Advance Directives Act, which lets a patient's surrogate make life-ending decisions on his or her behalf. The measure also allows Texas hospitals to disconnect patients from life-sustaining systems if a physician, in consultation with a hospital bioethics committee, concludes that the patient's condition is hopeless.




Bioethicists familiar with the Texas law said Monday that if the Schiavo case had occurred in Texas, her husband would be the legal decision-maker and, because he and her doctors agreed that she had no hope of recovery, her feeding tube would be disconnected.

"The Texas law signed in 1999 allowed next of kin to decide what the patient wanted, if competent," said John Robertson, a University of Texas bioethicist.

While Congress and the White House were considering legislation recently in the Schiavo case, Bush's Texas law faced its first high-profile test. With the permission of a judge, a Houston hospital disconnected a critically ill infant from his breathing tube last week against his mother's wishes after doctors determined that continuing life support would be futile.

"The mother down in Texas must be reading the Schiavo case and scratching her head," said Dr. Howard Brody, the director of Michigan State University's Center for Ethics and Humanities in the Life Sciences. "This does appear to be a contradiction."

Brody said that, in taking up the Schiavo case, Bush and Congress had shattered a body of bioethics law and practice.

"This is crazy. It's political grandstanding," he said.

Bush's apparent shift on right-to-die decisions wasn't lost on Democrats. During heated debate on the Schiavo case, Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz, D-Fla., accused Bush of hypocrisy.

"It appears that President Bush felt, as governor, that there was a point which, when doctors felt there was no further hope for the patient, that it is appropriate for an end-of-life decision to be made, even over the objection of family members," Wasserman Schultz said. "There is an obvious conflict here between the president's feelings on this matter now as compared to when he was governor of Texas."

White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan termed Wasserman Schultz's remarks "uninformed accusations" and denied that there was any conflict in Bush's positions on the two laws.

"The legislation he signed (early Monday) is consistent with his views," McClellan said. "The (1999) legislation he signed into law actually provided new protections for patients ... prior to the passage of the '99 legislation that he signed, there were no protections."

Wasserman Schultz stuck by her remarks when told of McClellan's comments.

"It's a fact in black and white," she said. "It's a direct conflict on the position he has in the Schiavo case."

Tom Mayo, a Southern Methodist University Law School associate professor who helped draft the Texas law, said he saw no inconsistency in Bush's stands.

"It's not really a conflict, because the (Texas) law addresses different types of disputes, meaning the dispute between decision-maker and physician," he said. "The Schiavo case is a disagreement among family members."

Bush himself framed the Schiavo decision this way Monday.

"This is a complex case with serious issues, but in extraordinary circumstances like this, it is wise to always err on the side of life," the president said during a Social Security event in Tucson, Ariz. He didn't mention the 1999 Texas law.

---

LoungeMachine
03-21-2005, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by Warham
I don't see the Republicans losing anything, since the Democrats have nothing to gain out of it.


You are a disgusting human being:mad:

Warham
03-22-2005, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
You are a disgusting human being:mad:

Knock it off, Lounge.

Like liberals have never used an issue for political gain?

Your party is the master of that.

Every issue that comes before Congress has a political side to it.

Cathedral
03-22-2005, 12:08 AM
Originally posted by Warham
I don't see the Republicans losing anything, since the Democrats have nothing to gain out of it. Notice that the big time libs like Kerry, Clinton, and Kennedy hardly made a peep? They have nothing to gain from this either way it turns out.

If anything, the Republicans will continue to garner the votes from those that will remember this story six months from now, and that's the red-state conservative Christian voters who are pro-life.

Even the Vatican has chimed in on the side of her parents, and you know how many Catholics hold the Vatican like it's the throne of God on Earth...

You missed my point completely. It has nothing to do with the Democrats gaining or losing, it will be about the Republicans being held accountable for Unconstitutional Behavior.
People probably won't remember this story, but they will remember the power grab that went down, as i am very sure I will.

But the Democrats are in a unique position they haven't seen in years. That is that if they are smart and use this issue wisely, it CAN help them gain seats and balance out the power more than it is right now, maybe even in their favor.

But there is a Conservative attitude still in the back of my mind that they will blow it.

As for me, the sky is a lovely shade of GREEN, lmmfao...........

Warham
03-22-2005, 12:09 AM
It's not unconstitutional in my view.

Cathedral
03-22-2005, 12:22 AM
Ok, I respect that view, i just don't share it.
To me, it is about the guardianship that Tom DeLay trampled so carelessly. His words felt like a spear to my chest.
It could be your life they legislate next. all it takes is an accident that silences your view.

Dude, I just can't trust people like that.

Warham
03-22-2005, 12:25 AM
Listen,

I agree that it's a tough issue, and that the feds should NOT get involved with these issues, leaving it to the states, but this case is special for various reasons.

The one thing that bothers me the most is she had no living will, her husband seems like a scumbag at times, and the fact that I don't agree with starving her to death when death-row child molesters and murderers in Florida get a more humane death than she does.

Like some, I agree that without a living will, we should err on the side of life.

Cathedral
03-22-2005, 12:44 AM
Ahhh, I see where we differ.
I don't support the Death Penalty because i think killers should spend their lives in prison where they can suffer the loss of freedom and think about why they are where they are everyday.
And also because there is an inside chance they could suffer a not so humane death like Jeffery Dahmer did.

But it is clear to me that Terri has friends that are NOT supporters of her husband that state she would prefer death to her current condition.
I don't give a rats ass aboot Michael Schiavo and i hope he gets his if what everyone has said cn be proven.

Nickdfresh
03-22-2005, 05:27 AM
Originally posted by Warham
I don't see the Republicans losing anything, since the Democrats have nothing to gain out of it. Notice that the big time libs like Kerry, Clinton, and Kennedy hardly made a peep? They have nothing to gain from this either way it turns out.

If anything, the Republicans will continue to garner the votes from those that will remember this story six months from now, and that's the red-state conservative Christian voters who are pro-life.

Even the Vatican has chimed in on the side of her parents, and you know how many Catholics hold the Vatican like it's the throne of God on Earth...

Yup. stupid Christians will still give them their votes based on superficial, phoney notions of morality and symbolism. But as George Carlin once said, "symbolism is for the symbol minded!" "Real Christians" like Tom DeLay will continue to stay in power based on lip service and corrupt pandering to multi-national corporations. Continue to vote against your own economic interests BUSHEEP.

Nice bigoted, stereotype about those "papist" Catholics BTW. I've never met anyone that believes that shit literally, only Evangelicals believe in such superstitious horseshit.

Nickdfresh
03-22-2005, 05:34 AM
March 22, 2005

THE TERRI SCHIAVO CASE
Judge Raises Doubts About Schiavo Case

He says that before he rules, her parents must bolster their appeal for reinserting her feeding tube. She is in her fourth day without nourishment.

By John-Thor Dahlburg, Times Staff Writer

TAMPA, Fla. — Terri Schiavo's parents took their case into a federal courtroom Monday, where they were met by a seemingly skeptical judge who questioned whether the brain-damaged woman's feeding tube should be reinserted. She now is in her fourth day without food or water.

U.S. District Judge James D. Whittemore, after a two-hour hearing, adjourned without issuing a ruling. He did not indicate when he might act.

"We are rushed, and we are somewhat desperate," David C. Gibbs III, who represented Schiavo's parents, told Whittemore. "Terri could expire as I speak."

But in order for him to rule in favor of Bob and Mary Schindler, Whittemore told Gibbs, there needed to be a substantial likelihood their case would prevail when heard in federal court. "I think you'd be hard-pressed to convince me," Whittemore said in asking Gibbs for supporting case law.

In a series of dramatic moves, the U.S. Senate on Sunday and the House of Representatives early Monday morning passed a measure empowering the federal courts to consider whether the 2000 decision by a Florida state judge to order the removal of Schiavo's tube may have violated her constitutional rights. The legislation was signed into law quickly by President Bush.

The Schindlers, who are Roman Catholic, also argue that it would be a sin to let their 41-year-old daughter starve to death. "It is a complete violation to her rights … to force her in a position of refusing nutrition," Gibbs said.

But George J. Felos, the lawyer representing Schiavo's husband, Michael, said he hoped Whittemore would resist the enormous political pressures surrounding the case and "do the right and courageous thing."

"Yes, life is sacred," Felos said. "So is liberty, particularly in this country.

"Every possible issue has been raised and re-raised, litigated and re-litigated," Felos said. "It's the elongation of these proceedings that have violated Mrs. Schiavo's due process rights."

The courthouse drama played out Monday across the bay from Pinellas Park, Fla., where Schiavo was being cared for in a hospice.

Whittemore's probing questions to Gibbs, and the decision not to rule immediately, darkened the mood outside Woodside Hospice where about two dozen Schindler supporters were gathered.

"Of course [the family is] very concerned that he didn't rule," said Gary McCullough of the Christian Communication Network, a spokesman for the Schindlers. "Every hour is another hour that their daughter is starving."

Gibbs visited Schiavo at the hospice Monday evening, and said he could see signs of dehydration, including recession in her eye sockets.

Appearing on CNN's "Larry King Live" Monday, Michael Schiavo said: "When Terri's wishes are carried out, it will be her wish. She will be at peace. She will be with the Lord."

According to an ABC News poll conducted Sunday, 70% of Americans believe congressional intervention in the case was inappropriate.

And at a meeting in Anaheim on Monday, members of the California Medical Assn. objected to lawmakers inserting themselves into decisions that they said were best left to patients and their families. The doctors group, in a near unanimous vote, condemned the federal law that provided the basis for the court hearing in Tampa.

The California physicians said they would ask the American Medical Assn. to approve the same resolution at its national convention in June.

Bush, however, praised lawmakers Monday. "This is a complex case with serious issues," he said. "But in extraordinary circumstances like this, it is wise to always err on the side of life."

Within two hours of Bush signing the law, Gibbs petitioned the U.S. District Court for the Middle District of Florida to issue a temporary restraining order that would reinsert Schiavo's feeding tube while the legal questions were being debated. The case was randomly assigned to Whittemore, a Clinton appointee.

The Schindlers argue that their daughter's due process rights were violated because state Circuit Judge George W. Greer, who ordered that Schiavo's feeding tube be removed, did not appoint an independent legal guardian to represent her.

"We believe that fundamentally, Terri was never given a fair trial," Gibbs told Whittemore.

Moreover, her parents say, depriving Schiavo of nutrition and water is something that she as a Catholic would object to. "We are now in a position where a court has ordered her to disobey her church and even to jeopardize her immortal soul," said Gibbs.

In 1990, doctors determined Schiavo to be in a persistent vegetative state after a potassium imbalance caused a heart attack. She stopped breathing for five minutes, which led to extensive brain damage.

Medical experts have testified that she has almost no hope of recovery. Her parents have disputed that conclusion, and at least one Florida neurologist has supported their contention that Schiavo could improve if given therapy.

At Monday's hearing, Felos derided Gibbs' contention that Schiavo's constitutional rights had been denied. "There has been no violation of any federal right," Felos said. "The [state] judge validated a medical treatment choice made by the patient."

Although Schiavo left no living will, Greer agreed with her husband in 2000 that she would not have wished to be kept alive through a gastric tube.

Perhaps no civil case in Florida, Felos argued, has been the subject of such protracted litigation. Schiavo's feeding tube has been taken out twice before: It was ordered reinserted in 2001 by a state judge after two days, and in 2003 by the Florida Legislature and Gov. Jeb Bush, the president's brother, after six days.

President Bush, Congress, the pope and her parents may each have an opinion about what degree of medical care Schiavo should receive, Felos said, "but there is only one opinion here that is relevant and relevant constitutionally, and that is Mrs. Schiavo's opinion."

Given the opportunity by Whittemore to rebut Felos, Gibbs said, "This court has to presume that Mrs. Schiavo would want to live."

LATimes (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-schiavo22mar22.story) staff writers Janet Hook in Washington and Carol J. Williams in Pinellas Park contributed to this report.

Nickdfresh
03-22-2005, 05:40 AM
March 22, 2005

POLITICAL AFTERMATH
Some in GOP Fear Effort May Alienate Voters
Advocates of smaller government could be turned off, analysts say. But others insist the action will inspire religious conservatives.

By Janet Hook, Times Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — The extraordinary steps taken by congressional Republicans to save the life of Terri Schiavo have won plaudits from evangelical Christians and other conservative activists, but some Republicans worry about a potential backlash among others who view the intervention as an overbearing use of government power.

Just as Congress passed and President Bush signed legislation allowing federal courts to review whether Schiavo's feeding tube should be withdrawn, a poll by ABC News found that 70% of those surveyed believed congressional intervention was inappropriate.

Though some GOP strategists have argued that the issue is a political winner for the party because it appeals to religious conservatives, other Republicans warn that the bold maneuver risks alienating swing voters as well as Republicans worried about government invasions of individual privacy.

"It goes beyond shameless politics," said Tony Fabrizio, a Republican pollster. "It becomes a more crystallized proof point that we are no longer the party of smaller government. We have become a party of 'It doesn't matter what size government is as long as it is imposing our set of values.' "

Hmmm...You mean the party of deficit spending, interventionaism, and of eroding civil liberties is not about "smaller government?" Get out!

Rep. Christopher Shays (R-Conn.), before voting against the bill Bush later signed, asked: "How deep is this Congress going to reach into the personal lives of each and every one of us?"

Still, some Republican analysts say the immediate poll results — and the concerns raised by Shays and others — are not politically significant because the activists pushing to keep Schiavo alive care more passionately than those opposing that view.

"Intensity matters," said Gary Bauer, a conservative leader who ran for the GOP presidential nomination in 2000. "The people who know the most about this controversy are the most likely to believe" that Schiavo should be allowed to live.

The Schiavo controversy does not split lawmakers or the country strictly along ideological lines; many people are influenced as much by their personal experiences as they are by political leanings.

The decisive legislative action on the Schiavo controversy is widely viewed within the political community as a show of strength for social conservatives, who are preparing for even bigger congressional battles.

Many of the activists are urging GOP leaders to move more aggressively this spring to win confirmation of Bush's judicial nominees.

They argue that the Schiavo case reinforces the importance of placing conservatives in the judiciary.

"This is just one more perfect portrait of why we need to have fair and just men on the bench," said Lanier Swann, director of government relations for Concerned Women of America, a conservative group that has made the Schiavo case a priority.

Bauer said the Schiavo controversy was the beginning of a much larger debate that would shape U.S. politics for years to come.

"We're on the cusp of a really gigantic national debate about life and advances in medicine," Bauer said. The Schiavo controversy "touches in a very important way in the whole debate on the sanctity of life, and it will encourage voters to believe that it is something Republicans feel strongly about."

The fight over whether to remove the feeding tube that has kept Schiavo alive since a heart malfunction caused severe neurological damage in 1990 has become a cause celebre for the Christian evangelicals and antiabortion activists who were crucial to Bush's reelection.

The issue came to a head in an extraordinary weekend session of Congress, when lawmakers were recalled from spring recess to vote on a bill to allow Schiavo's parents to bring the case to federal court.

The political advantages of pursuing the legislation were trumpeted in a GOP staff memo circulated in the Senate late last week, although Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) said he had no knowledge of the memo.

"This is a great political issue," the memo said, because it puts Democrats in a difficult position and because "the pro-life base will be very excited that the Senate is debating this important issue."

But the ABC poll, conducted by telephone Sunday as Congress was acting, found that 63% supported removal of Schiavo's feeding tube and 28% opposed it.

The poll also found that among Republicans, Congress' action did not win strong backing. According to the poll, 58% of Republicans believed the intervention in the case was inappropriate, and 61% supported removing Schiavo's tube.

The survey's margin of error for its entire sample of 501 adults was plus or minus 4.5 percentage points.

Among the Republicans surveyed, the margin of error was plus or minus 8 points.

The legislation passed the Senate on Sunday under the chamber's unanimous consent rules. Three senators were on the floor — Frist, Mel Martinez (R-Fla.) and John W. Warner (R-Va.).

In the House, the bill passed at 12:45 a.m. EST Monday, 203 to 58, with 174 members not voting. Supporting it were 156 Republicans and 47 Democrats; opposing it were five Republicans and 53 Democrats.

Some of the conservative critics of Congress' action say the issue goes to the core of what kind of party the GOP will become. They worry it will further erode the party's commitment to limiting the role of the federal government.

"Conservatives who have criticized the idea that Washington should run everything ought to be sheepish" about getting involved in the Schiavo case, said David Boaz, an analyst at the Cato Institute, a libertarian think tank

www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-politics22mar22,0,3262189.story?coll=la-home-nation

Warham
03-22-2005, 08:20 AM
Judge Won't Order Schiavo Tube Reinsertion
By VICKIE CHACHERE, Associated Press Writer
32 minutes ago

TAMPA, Fla. - A federal judge on Tuesday refused to order the reinsertion of Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, denying an emergency request from the brain-damaged woman's parents.

The ruling by U.S. District Judge James Whittemore comes after feverish action by President Bush and Congress on legislation allowing her contentious case to be reviewed by federal courts. The judge said the 41-year-old woman's parents had not established a "substantial likelihood of success" at trial on the merits of their arguments.

Rex Sparklin, an attorney with the law firm representing Terri Schiavo's parents, said lawyers were immediately appealing to the 11th Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta to "save Terri's life."

The tube was disconnected Friday on the orders of a state judge, prompting an extraordinary weekend effort by congressional Republicans to push through unprecedented emergency legislation early Monday aimed at keeping her alive.

Schiavo did not have a living will. Her husband, Michael Schiavo, has fought in courts for years to have the tube removed because he said she would not want to be kept alive artificially and she has no hope for recovery. Her parents contend she responds to them and her condition could improve.

BigBadBrian
03-22-2005, 08:55 AM
I wished ALL of these people would keel over dead so something else could dominate the news. :gulp:

FORD
03-22-2005, 09:03 AM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
I wished ALL of these people would keel over dead so something else could dominate the news. :gulp:

Blame the corporate mediawhores for that. There's lots of other things they could have covered the last few days and deliberately chose not to.

Like the second anniversary of a useless war. Or the REAL news about that shitbag Tom DeLay. Or how Rummy went on Sunday morning shows and lied AGAIN. Or about how Junior's Social Security plan (or complete lack of one) is a miserable failure, and even Republicans are trying to distance themselves from it. Or how this VeggieThon '05 seemed to begin conveniently right after the corporatists succeeded in their step 1 to rape and pillage ANWR for a 6 month supply of oil that won't be available for 10 years.

Yep, just business as usual for the corporate media :mad:

kentuckyklira
03-22-2005, 10:33 AM
Looks like they´re going to stop watering the vegetable at last!

FORD
03-22-2005, 10:37 AM
Ken Schram Commentary: The Politics Of Death

March 21, 2005

By Ken Schram


SEATTLE - It's become the politics of death.

Ten courts and 19 judges have ruled in favor of Michael Schiavo's request to have his wife's feeding tube removed.

But that's of no importance to President Bush.

Schiavo says his wife Terri wouldn't choose to live like this.

Conservatives in Congress don't care.

Doctors say there's no hope that Terri Schiavo will ever recover from the vegetative state she's been in for the past 15 years.

The President and his conservative cohorts don't really give a damn.

Ignoring the doctors; ignoring the courts; ignoring Terri Schiavo's husband, death is suddenly a hot political potato that can entice Congress into late night sessions, and even lure the President back early from his vacation.

These are the same people who insist that government should stay out of people's lives as much as possible; the same people who then arbitrarily select what issues are deserving of their moral indignation and their political manipulation.

I honestly don't know if Terri Schiavo's feeding tube should be removed.

But neither does the President.

And neither does his conservative ilk in Congress.

What I do know is that I'm tired of the hypocrisy surrounding their politics of death. :mad:

link (http://www.komotv.com/stories/35857.htm)

kentuckyklira
03-22-2005, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by FORD
What I do know is that I'm tired of the hypocrisy surrounding their politics of death. :mad:

link (http://www.komotv.com/stories/35857.htm) Consider how many lives could be saved in the third world (even good Christian lives) with the money it costs to keep that woman alive. I wonder what Jesus would have said.

FORD
03-22-2005, 11:13 AM
The Daily Show's perspective on the Schiavo case
http://www.edwardsdavid.com/images/dailyshow_schiavo_congressional_meddle_050321-01.jpg

Download here (Real Media) (http://www.edwardsdavid.com/BushVideos/dailyshow_schiavo_congressional_meddle_050321-01.rm)

LoungeMachine
03-22-2005, 11:19 AM
Where is the Congessional outrage over the Texas bill signed by the Shrub which says if the patient has no insurance, THE HOSPITAL may decide over the family's wishes to DISCONNECT life support/feeding tubes????????????????????

High Life Man
03-22-2005, 11:22 AM
I posted this at DDLR.COM, but it's funny....

Heard this commercial yesterday on Mancow:

Tonight on American Idol, a special unplugged performance by Terri Schiavo.

*beep, beep, beep, beeeeeeeeeep*

FORD
03-22-2005, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Where is the Congessional outrage over the Texas bill signed by the Shrub which says if the patient has no insurance, THE HOSPITAL may decide over the family's wishes to DISCONNECT life support/feeding tubes????????????????????

Yeah, you would think DeLay might have been a little upset over that one, "defender of life" that he claims to be.

Why isn't his fucking ass back in Houston complaining about the 6 month old baby who was unplugged the other day or the 68 year old man who was about to be?

Maybe because their familes aren't cash donors like Bobby Schit-for-brains?

tomballin
03-22-2005, 12:23 PM
Noticed this on Whittemore’s bio

http://img184.exs.cx/img184/9858/whittemore4cb.jpg

Favorite Food: McDonald’s cheeseburgers, like my favorite homie wild Bill Clinton.

Roth Note: This 1999 Clinton appointee, even looks a little like the guy. Alright where’s a chart of his family tree to see if he is inbred, baaawaaa.

As to the ruling against Terri, I stand by my post # 183, before his ruling was handed down. It was the right decision, all factors considered.

Personally I believe this could have a big backlash on Bush and DeLay with that monkey dick new Terri’s law stunt they pulled. It was basically the same POS that Florida did, that was already ruled unconstitutional. They gave Judge Whittemore no room to give Terri the equities of law she, or any other PVS person in a situation like this deserves. Animals and murderers have more rights in this Country presently than PVS victims and their families.

Also, Terri’s parents deserve to lose their daughter. The whole time with her worthless father it has been me, me, me, and pissing off everyone around him with all of his worthless lies on many matters of this case. This whole case has been nothing more than a personal pissing contest between he and Michael Schiavo.

Even last night on TV, Terri’s bumble fuck father had their quack doctor on TV saying Terri could get better with his help. Never mind the mofo doc was hit by both the Florida Medical Board and the California Medical Board for bilking patients with his bogus claims. I mean shite what the hell is the matter with people!

Maybe with Terri with the Lord, her family will get of their dead ass and help in getting federal “relief valve” legislation passed for situations like this, like death row inmates have, where you have State Probate Judge’s playing God, and States with totally screwed up laws on this subject.

BigBadBrian
03-22-2005, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by kentuckyklira
Consider how many lives could be saved in the third world (even good Christian lives) with the money it costs to keep that woman alive. I wonder what Jesus would have said.

"Even" good Christian lives?

Are Christian lives inferior?

Don't wonder what Jesus would have said...that's a mockery coming from an atheist such as yourself. Go make fun of another religion.

FORD
03-22-2005, 02:49 PM
I would guess that whatever Jesus would have said about the situation, He would have said 15 years ago, when the poor woman actually DIED.

FORD
03-22-2005, 02:55 PM
http://agitprops.org/schiavo06.jpg

kentuckyklira
03-22-2005, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
"Even" good Christian lives?

Are Christian lives inferior?

Don't wonder what Jesus would have said...that's a mockery coming from an atheist such as yourself. Go make fun of another religion. I make fun of any religion I feel like!

Have a kleenex!

academic punk
03-22-2005, 03:33 PM
I just wish someone would cut the shit regarding the smear campaigns against MS. As if he hasn't gone through enough?

If any of that shit had any validity, don;t you think the parents would have seized the opportunity to - if not try to get him incarcerated - seize custody?

They've had the governor of their state try to win this for them They've had the president and the majoity of congress. You don;t think they would've attempted the more direct avenue of "My daughter's husband shot her up with insulin, strangled her, and calls her a bitch" before taking all of these unprecedented steps?

Likely.

tomballin
03-22-2005, 03:34 PM
Just In Time for All You Memorabilia Shoppers
Terri Schiavo's Used Feeding Tube and Bag on Ebay

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5567730590

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/6338/tsfeedingtube8av.jpg

http://img81.exs.cx/img81/2328/tsfeedingtube11lo.jpg

People are a piece of work!

Never mind what this guy did is a violation of Federal law, if the item is real, which it is probably not since that Hospice is heavily guarded 24/7

tomballin
03-22-2005, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by FORD
http://agitprops.org/schiavo06.jpg


I can see this thread is going down hill fast, baawaaa.

Hey Ford, great video post. That was funny! Stewart had some great segments during the election run bashing Dumbass. They were a scream.

FORD
03-22-2005, 03:55 PM
Hell, Jon Stewart has a more accurate newscast than any of the networks these days, and he admits his is fake!

BTW, E-Bay pulled the tube already. Er, so to speak.


Invalid Item
This listing (5567730590) has been removed by eBay or is no longer available. Please make sure that you've entered the item number correctly.
If the item was removed by eBay, please consider this transaction canceled. If anybody contacts you to complete the sale, please ignore the request. Completing the sale outside of eBay may be unsafe and will not be covered by eBay purchase protection programs.

tomballin
03-22-2005, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Hell, Jon Stewart has a more accurate newscast than any of the networks these days, and he admits his is fake!

BTW, E-Bay pulled the tube already. Er, so to speak.

So to speak, baawaa.

I knew they would, that's why I screen shot it real fast when I got an email about it.

EVH Art Series Corn Dogs anyone.

BigBadBrian
03-22-2005, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by kentuckyklira
I make fun of any religion I feel like!

Have a kleenex!

You've worn out that line, Adolf.

I never did expect you to come up with anything original. :D

You're probably an Anti-Semite also, considering the country you're from.

tomballin
03-22-2005, 04:49 PM
Hey Ford,

Even with the Schiavo 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals filing,

there is still a wild card in this deal that is not getting much press.

Remember now, that the U.S. Justice Department filed a lawsuit Monday, to enforce The Hammer's and Dumbass's new Terri's law, including that new civil suit.

Could be the bottom of the ninth, homer. Kinda hard to have a trial if she's dead.

Knew you would want to know, lol. It ain't over until the fat lady sings.

kentuckyklira
03-22-2005, 04:55 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
You've worn out that line, Adolf.

I never did expect you to come up with anything original. :D

You're probably an Anti-Semite also, considering the country you're from. LAME!

Have a crutch!

http://i15.ebayimg.com/02/i/03/ab/76/43_1_b.JPG

BigBadBrian
03-22-2005, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by kentuckyklira
LAME!

Have a crutch!



Is that one of the crutches your grandfather took from one of the Jews before he gassed him? Hmmm?

kentuckyklira
03-22-2005, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Is that one of the crutches your grandfather took from one of the Jews before he gassed him? Hmmm? No jokes about my granddad please! He died in a concentration camp damnit! :mad: :mad: :(

kentuckyklira
03-22-2005, 05:07 PM
He fell off a watchtower, dead drunk!

kentuckyklira
03-22-2005, 05:08 PM
:bottle: :bottle:

BigBadBrian
03-22-2005, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by kentuckyklira
No jokes about my granddad please! He died in a concentration camp damnit! :mad: :mad: :(

HAVE A KLEENEX!!! :daisy: :daisy: :daisy: :daisy:

Warham
03-22-2005, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Yup. stupid Christians will still give them their votes based on superficial, phoney notions of morality and symbolism. But as George Carlin once said, "symbolism is for the symbol minded!" "Real Christians" like Tom DeLay will continue to stay in power based on lip service and corrupt pandering to multi-national corporations. Continue to vote against your own economic interests BUSHEEP.

Nice bigoted, stereotype about those "papist" Catholics BTW. I've never met anyone that believes that shit literally, only Evangelicals believe in such superstitious horseshit.

I can talk about Catholics all I want, Nick, since I was born and raised one.

Off you go now...

Nickdfresh
03-22-2005, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Warham
I can talk about Catholics all I want, Nick, since I was born and raised one.

Off you go now...

And Hitler was part Jewish.

I was merely pointing out the pot--->tea kettle regarding bizarre religious beliefs, which Catholics hardly have a monopoly on. ;)

Warham
03-22-2005, 06:01 PM
All I said was that Catholics look to the Pope for guidance, which they do....

Is that so strange?

High Life Man
03-22-2005, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Warham
All I said was that Catholics look to the Pope for guidance, which they do....


Speaking of comatose, it all comes full circle.

Steve Savicki
03-22-2005, 06:35 PM
My personal opinion?

Terri's parents are the ones who gave birth to their daughter. Therefore, they should be the ones who have the say in the matter.

Michael is married to another woman so I fail to see why this involves him completely other than him getting money after her death.

Warham
03-22-2005, 06:38 PM
I think you are coming around, Savicki.

Uh oh, I should've done that in PM.

:D

BigBadBrian
03-22-2005, 06:47 PM
Originally posted by Steve Savicki

Michael is married to another woman so I fail to see why this involves him completely other than him getting money after her death.

You know Steve, I guess that's just it...that common law wife. She's the deal breaker for me. Take her out of the equation and MS could probably have his way. Now....he's just a scumbag.

Nickdfresh
03-22-2005, 07:10 PM
Originally posted by Warham
All I said was that Catholics look to the Pope for guidance, which they do....

Is that so strange?

Depends on the subject. Human rights or something like that, okay.

Covering for or enabling pedophile priests, no.

Nickdfresh
03-22-2005, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Steve Savicki
My personal opinion?

Terri's parents are the ones who gave birth to their daughter. Therefore, they should be the ones who have the say in the matter.

Michael is married to another woman so I fail to see why this involves him completely other than him getting money after her death.

He's not married to her yet because he's not yet a widower. And I wouldn't want my weepy, aging parents making major medical decisions. And if the shoe were on the other foot, you damn well know they'd be saying, well her parents want her off life support, but her husband who wants to keep her alive is her true legal guardian...:rolleyes:

Nickdfresh
03-22-2005, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
You know Steve, I guess that's just it...that common law wife. She's the deal breaker for me. Take her out of the equation and MS could probably have his way. Now....he's just a scumbag.

Yeah, God forbid anyone moves on in their life after they wife effectively dies.:rolleyes: Just hold on too whatevers left while they waste away in a hospital bed.

Warham
03-22-2005, 07:17 PM
Yeah, you'd want your wife, who's living with another man, to make your medical decisions.

Nickdfresh
03-22-2005, 07:19 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Yeah, you'd want your wife, who's living with another man, to make your medical decisions.

Yes! If I get like that, fucking kill me! Don't remove the feeding tube, blow my fucking head off so the spinal fluid spatters all over the walls!

What would you want if you were in her situation War?

Warham
03-22-2005, 07:34 PM
I'm going to make sure I have a will, so it doesn't happen.

Nickdfresh
03-22-2005, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Warham
I'm going to make sure I have a will, so it doesn't happen.

On that we can agree!

Warham
03-22-2005, 07:40 PM
Bottom line, it's really about the girl, not about her bastard husband or Congress getting involved.

God bless her.

tomballin
03-22-2005, 08:20 PM
Nice free legal help, the U.S. Justice Department. Sure beats Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe:

-------------

In Terri’s behalf, the Justice Department filed a court statement, saying an injunction was "plainly warranted" to carry out the wishes of Congress to provide federal court jurisdiction over the case.

Unless the feeding tube is reinserted, the department said, Schiavo may die before the courts can resolve her family's claims. "No comparable harm will be caused" by letting Schiavo live while the case is reviewed, the filing said.

Section two of the legislation passed by Congress and signed into law clearly requires the court to determine 'de novo' the merits of the case -- or in layman's terms, it requires a completely new and full review of the case.

Section three requires the judge to grant a temporary restraining order because he cannot fulfill his or her recognized duty to review the case 'de novo' without first keeping Terri Schiavo alive.

tomballin
03-22-2005, 08:40 PM
With Mel Gibson being a major Terri supporter, we can probably guess what his next Church movie is going to be about.

Put another $400 million in Mel's pocket, specially if he puts a Michael Schiavo character on the cross and has him beaten and crucified, during some dream of Terri's or something.

I can already see it coming, and if Terri were to die this Sunday (Easter), after 9 days of starvation, man-o-man. Michael Schiavo better plan on wearing bulletproof body armor the rest of his life.

http://img211.exs.cx/img211/5301/passion6mc.jpg

Guitar Shark
03-22-2005, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Bottom line, it's really about the girl, not about her bastard husband or Congress getting involved.

God bless her.

She is only "alive" today because people got involved. Without medical treatment, she would be dead.

The moment the doctors treated her, "God" left the equation. People on your side of the fence are fighting a battle to keep a woman "alive" who God already decided should die. Why is this so difficult to understand?

Warham
03-22-2005, 09:27 PM
I don't agree with that.

Modern medicine is a gift from God, in my eyes.

Guitar Shark
03-22-2005, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Warham
I don't agree with that.

Modern medicine is a gift from God, in my eyes.

So by that logic, cloning of human embryos is a gift from God too, right?

FORD
03-22-2005, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Warham
I don't agree with that.

Modern medicine is a gift from God, in my eyes.

To some extent, yes. Certainly doctor's abilities are a talent that comes from God just as any musician's talent is.

But when your brain is nothing but a sack of spinal fluid, then that's God's way of telling you that it's time to give it up. Brains don't grow back, and that ain't life.

Warham
03-22-2005, 09:31 PM
Nope, because cloning is unethical in Christian views.

Especially when those embryos are going to be destroyed for stem cell research, etc.

Guitar Shark
03-22-2005, 09:36 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Nope, because cloning is unethical in Christian views.

Especially when those embryos are going to be destroyed for stem cell research, etc.

LOL, tell me where the Bible says that human cloning is contrary to Christian beliefs.

Then, tell me where the Bible says that modern medicine that artificially prolongs human life is consistent with Christian beliefs.

Do you not see the inherent contradiction in your views? This woman is dead and the only thing currently preventing God's plan from being effectuated is the government. The same government, by the way, that people like you constantly claim is too big and intrusive. Yet somehow it is acceptable here. :confused:

Warham
03-22-2005, 09:40 PM
I said it's considered unethical amongst Christians, Guitar.

Are you really a lawyer? I'd think you'd be able to understand that sentence.

Yeah, the government's standing in the way, eh?

I think you'd best look at her parents instead of George Bush as to who's keeping this going, pal.

Guitar Shark
03-22-2005, 09:44 PM
Originally posted by Warham
I said it's considered unethical amongst Christians, Guitar.

Are you really a lawyer? I'd think you'd be able to understand that sentence.

Yeah, the government's standing in the way, eh?

I think you'd best look at her parents instead of George Bush as to who's keeping this going, pal.

And where do Christian beliefs come from? The Bible. At least, that's what they say.

Agreed that the parents are keeping it going. But they'd be dead in the water right now without the government's help. You have to admit that, at least.