The Republicans Screwed Themselves!

[Nickdfresh]

Political Fallout Over Schiavo Law

March 23, 2005

"To simply say that the 'culture of life'... means that we don't have to pay attention to the principles of federalism or separation of powers is certainly not a conservative viewpoint."

Former Rep. Bob Barr, R-Ga.

http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2005/03/24/image682715x.jpg
Florida Democratic State Sen. Larcenia Bullard, seen here in debate over the Schiavo bill, considered backing it but voted "no," slamming the tactics of demonstrators who yelled insults at lawmakers. (Photo: AP)
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2005/03/24/image682717x.jpg
Demonstrators supporting re-inserting the feeding tube for Terri Schiavo proclaim their message in front of the White House on Wednesday, after two days of losses in federal courts. (Photo: AP)


(CBS/AP) (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/23/politics/main682619.shtml) Congressional leaders have insisted their only motivation in getting involved in the Terri Schiavo case was saving a life. But Americans aren’t buying that argument, a CBS News poll finds.

An overwhelming 82 percent of the public believes the Congress and President should stay out of the matter.

Just 13 percent of those polled think Congress intervened in the case out of concern for Schiavo, while 74 percent think it was all about politics. Of those polled, 66 percent said the tube should not be inserted compared to 27 percent who want it restored. The issue has generated strong feelings, with 78 percent of those polled -- whether for either side of the issue -- saying they have strong feelings.

Public approval of Congress has suffered as a result; at 34 percent, it is the lowest it has been since 1997, dropping from 41 percent last month. Now at 43 percent, President Bush’s approval rating is also lower than it was a month ago.

Over the weekend, Republicans in Congress pushed through unprecedented emergency legislation aimed at prolonging the brain-damaged woman's life by allowing the case to be reviewed by federal courts.

Since then, a federal judge and a federal appeals panel have turned down a request by Schiavo's parents to order doctors to reconnect the feeding tube that's kept their daughter alive for the past 15 years.

Wednesday afternoon, the case was rejected by the full 11th Circuit Court of Appeals. It could still be appealed to the U.S. Supreme Court.

Late Wednesday, leaders of the U.S. House filed papers with the Supreme Court supporting the parents' wishes to have the feeding tube restored -- even though the parents have not yet appealed to the high court. The House leaders, including House Majority Leader Tom DeLay, R-Texas, and Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert, R-Ill., argues that federal courts so far have misinterpreted the special Schindler legislation, and that the federal courts are required to keep Schiavo alive until a new review of her case.

President Bush, who rushed back from his Texas ranch to sign the bill early Monday, defended the actions he and Congress have taken on Schiavo's behalf, but said the White House has no further legal options.

"We felt like the actions taken with Congress was the best course of action," Mr. Bush said Wednesday.

White House spokesman Scott McClellan later said, "There really are not other legal options available to us."

CBS News Correspondent Wyatt Andrews reports there is evidence some Republicans saw a political opening in the Schiavo case, by framing her plight in the context of pro-life or anti-abortion politics.

One memo circulating in the Senate last week touted how the "pro-life base will be excited by the issue."

Republican leaders strongly disavowed that, but on Friday, House Majority Leader Tom DeLay told the Family Research Council, a leading Christian group, that the Schiavo case was sent by heaven to focus attention on the helpless.

"One thing that God has brought to us is Terri Schiavo, to help elevate the visibility of what's going on in America," said DeLay, R-Texas.

He also described the stakes behind the Schiavo showdown as personal.

"This is exactly the issue that's going on in America, the attacks against the conservative movement, against me and against many others."

However, not all conservatives are happy with the decision by Congress and President Bush to intervene in the Schiavo case.

Former Rep. Bob Barr, R-Ga., said the new law was an example of the big government conservatives have always opposed.

"To simply say that the 'culture of life,' or whatever you call it means that we don't have to pay attention to the principles of federalism or separation of powers is certainly not a conservative viewpoint," said Barr.

Republican Sen. John Warner of Virginia voted against the legislation, saying it goes against the conservative principles of federalism.

"That the misfortunes of life vested upon Theresa Marie Schiavo are a human tragedy, no one can deny. I said my prayers, as did many Americans, as we attended religious services this Palm Sunday," he said. "I believe it unwise for the Congress to take from the state of Florida its constitutional responsibility to resolve the issues in this case."

Democrats tried to block the legislation from coming to a vote on the floor of Congress, and some accused the Republicans of acting out of political motives.

House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said "Congressional leaders have no business substituting their judgment for that of multiple state courts that have extensively considered the issues in this intensely personal family matter."

"This rush to exploit a personal tragedy is not fair to those involved and will not create good policy," she said.

And Rep. Barney Frank, D-Mass., said, "If you don't want a decision to be made politically, why in the world do you ask 535 politicians to make it?"


©MMV, CBS Broadcasting Inc. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. The Associated Press contributed to this report.

[academic punk]

This defintely hurt the religious rights cause.

While it may have "solidified" the base, it definitely alienated non-religious republicans, and independents.

It also DEEPLY pissed off ALL the country's courts, both state and federal.

Damage control mode begins now.

Rudy, '08.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by academic punk
This defintely hurt the religious rights cause.

While it may have "solidified" the base, it definitely alienated non-religious republicans, and independents.

It also DEEPLY pissed off ALL the country's courts, both state and federal.

Damage control mode begins now.

Rudy, '08.

GOOD! Maybe people will wake up and realize what a bunch of self-serving, phoney A-HOLES these fanatics are!

[Nickdfresh]

WHAT SHOULD HAPPEN TO TERRI SCHIAVO NOW?

Re-insert tube
27%

Do not re-insert
66%

Both Catholics and Protestants think the tube should not be re-inserted now. Liberals and moderates both believe the tube should not be re-inserted; conservatives are more closely divided. Most Democrats and Republicans agree the tube should remain out at this point. A strong majority of Americans in every age group says the tube should not be re-inserted now.

President Bush signed the legislation concerning Terri Schiavo on Sunday night, but a majority of those who voted for him last November do not think the feeding tube should be re-inserted. John Kerry's voters agree.

Most Americans do not now think the case ought to go further up the judicial system. A majority, 61 percent, says the case should not be heard by the U.S. Supreme Court, while 37 percent say the court should hear the case.

SHOULD SCHIAVO CASE BE HEARD BY U.S. SUPREME COURT?

Yes
37%

No
61%

Overall, views on what should happen to Terri Schiavo now closely match what Americans think should have happened to her leading up to now. 61 percent think that the feeding tube ought to have been removed, while fewer -- 28 percent -- think it ought to have remained in place.

But whatever their stance on the issue, more than three in four say they feel "strongly" about their views on the matter. Majorities of those on both sides feel strongly.

HOW STRONGLY DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS ISSUE?

Strongly
All
78%
Don't re-insert tube now
85%
Re-insert tube now
77%

Not strongly
All
19%
Don't re-insert tube now
13%
Re-insert tube now
20%

That intensity of feeling cuts across religions, and religiosity. Both Catholics and Protestants feel strongly about their stance, as do both evangelical and non-evangelical Christians. Those who attend religious services frequently say they feel strongly, and so do those who attend less often.

More than three-fourths of the public -- 76 percent -- say they are following the story either very or somewhat closely. This is about as high as the 79 percent who reported they were closely following the Abu Ghraib prisoner abuse scandal in May 2004, and higher than the 61 percent who closely followed the Congressional hearings surrounding the 9/11 investigation in April 2004.

INVOLVEMENT BY THE CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT
The vast majority of Americans say Congress and the President should stay out of the Schiavo matter.

SHOULD CONGRESS AND THE PRESIDENT BE INVOLVED IN SCHIAVO MATTER?

Yes
13%

No
82%

There are no partisan political differences on this issue: majorities of Democrats (89 percent), Republicans (72 percent), liberals (84 percent) and conservatives (76 percent) are in agreement that the government should not be involved. 68 percent of white evangelicals think that Congress and the President should stay out of the Schiavo case.

And Congress' motives for being involved are seen as driven by political calculations, not compassion.

WHY DO YOU THINK CONGRESS GOT INVOLVED?


They care about Terri Schiavo
13%

Trying to advance political agenda
74%

Congress' involvement in the case may have damaged the public’s view of that institution. In this poll, 34 percent approve of the way Congress is handling its job, down from 41 percent last month, while 49 percent now disapprove, up from 44 percent last month. This is the lowest approval rating Congress has received since December 1997, in the wake of Congressional hearings into Democratic fundraising practices.

CONGRESS JOB APPROVAL

Approve
Now
34%

2/2005
41%

Disapprove
Now
49%

2/2005
44%

THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT
In general, Americans believe the issue of whether a family can remove a patient from life support is not for government at any level to decide. Just 9 percent say the Federal government should decide such matters, 13 percent say these are state matters, and 75 percent say government should stay out altogether.

ROLE OF GOVERNMENT IN DECIDING LIFE SUPPORT CASES

Federal government should decide
9%
State government should decide
13%
Government should stay out
75%

Americans of all political persuasions -- Republicans, Democrats, conservatives and liberals alike -- share similar feelings on this issue.

The public also foresees troubling ramifications from this case: two-thirds are concerned that Congress' actions in this matter will set a precedent, making it easier for the legislature to intervene in individuals' lives in the future.

WILL CONGRESS' ACTIONS THIS WEEK MAKE IT EASIER FOR THEM TO INTERVENE IN THE FUTURE?

Yes, and concerned about it
68%

Yes, but not concerned about it
9%

No
17%

ATTITUDES TOWARD LIFE AND DEATH
This poll also asked Americans general views on life and death decisions in these kinds of matters.

There is an overwhelming view among Americans that if they themselves were in a coma, they would want their feeding tube removed. 82 percent say so; only 14 percent say they would not want their doctor to remove the feeding tube to let them die in that scenario. This was also the case when the CBS News Poll asked the question back in 1990; then 85 percent said they would want their feeding tube removed.

IF YOU WERE IN A COMA, WOULD YOU WANT YOUR DOCTOR TO REMOVE THE FEEDING TUBE AND LET YOU DIE?

Yes-

Now
82%

1990
85%

No

Now
14%

1990
11%

In general, 73 percent say if a patient is in a coma with no brain activity, a close family member should have the right to tell the doctor to remove the feeding tube and let the patient die. 17 percent say family members should not have this right. Conservatives are somewhat less likely than liberals and moderates to say this, but 62 percent of them still think so. Back in 1990, even more Americans -- 81 percent -- thought a close family member should have the right to tell a doctor to remove a feeding tube.

IF PATIENT IS IN A COMA, SHOULD CLOSE FAMILY MEMBER BE ABLE TO HAVE DOCTOR REMOVE THE FEEDING TUBE AND LET THE PERSON DIE?

Should
Now
73%
1990
81%

Should not
Now
17%
1990
13%

In general, in the absence of a legal directive, most Americans think a spouse has the ultimate authority in these matters. If a patient is in a vegetative state, has left no legal document stating what kind of medical care he or she would want, and family members disagree as to what should be done, 62 percent of Americans think the patient’s spouse should have the right to make the final decision about what should be done for the patient medically. 15 percent think the patient’s parents should make the final decision, and another 10 percent want the patient’s adult children to decide.

WHO SHOULD MAKE THE FINAL DECISION IF THE PATIENT IS IN A VEGETATIVE STATE AND DID NOT LEAVE LEGAL INSTRUCTIONS?

Spouse
62%
Parents
15%
Adult children
10%

In a separate situation, six in ten say if a doctor injects a terminally ill patient with a lethal dose of drugs at the person’s request it is not the same thing as murder. 28 percent say it is.

IF A DOCTOR INJECTS TERMINALLY ILL PATIENT WITH LETHAL DOSE OF DRUGS AT THE PERSON’S REQUEST, IS THAT THE SAME AS MURDER?

Same as murder
Now
28%
1998
30%

Not the same
Now
63%
1998
61%

Views on the matter are similar to what they were in November 1998, shortly after CBS' 60 Minutes aired Dr. Jack Kevorkian participating in the death of a terminally ill patient. Back then, 61 percent said a doctor injecting a patient with a lethal dose of drugs at the person’s request was not murder.

LIVING WILL
The Schiavo case highlights the importance of living wills -- legal documents that detail what kind of medical care individuals would want should they become unable to make medical decisions themselves. This poll shows that Terri Schiavo is far from alone in not having such a legal document: only one in three Americans say they have a living will; 67 percent say they do not.

DO YOU HAVE A LIVING WILL?

Yes
33%
No
67%

Older Americans, those who are college-educated, and Republicans are the most likely to currently have a living will. A majority of Americans age 65 and older say they have one.

HAVE A LIVING WILL
Total
33%

Gender
Men
31%
Women
34%

Age
18-29
6%
30-44
23%
45-64
42%
65+
68%

Currently Married
Yes
39%
No
25%

Church attendance
Every week
42%
Less often
31%
Never
23%

Education
High School or less
27%
Some College
28%
College grad +
48%

Income
< $30K
24%
$30K-$50K
31%
Over $50K
40%

Party Identification
Republican
44%
Democrat
29%
Independent
28%

THE POLITICAL IMPACT OF THE SCHIAVO CASE
As mentioned earlier, Congressional approval ratings have fallen since last month and are at their lowest point since 1997, and President Bush’s job approval ratings have also declined. 43 percent now approve of President Bush’s handling of his job as President; 48 percent disapprove.

36 percent approve of President Bush’s handling of the economy, and 53 percent disapprove. Bush’s approval rating on Iraq has also dropped; 39 percent approve, down from 45 percent in late February; 53 percent now disapprove.

BUSH JOB APPROVALS

Overall
Now
43%

2/2005
49%

Economy
Now
36%

2/2005
38%

Iraq
Now
39%

2/2005
45%


There is a strong partisan element to these views; the President’s approval rating is especially low among Democrats (11 percent approve), while 85 percent of Republicans approve.

As a matter of national priority, the public continues to say the war in Iraq (26 percent) and the economy and jobs (15 percent) are the most important problems facing the U.S. today. Only 6 percent mention Social Security, about the same as last month.

This poll was conducted among a nationwide random sample of 737 adults interviewed by telephone March 21-22, 2005. The error due to sampling could be plus or minus four percentage points for results based on all adults. Error for subgroups may be higher.

www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/23/opinion/polls/main682674.shtml

[Warham]

lol

From the party that's led by moveon.org. There's no fanatics there!

[Cathedral]

Can't wait to see what happens in '06...........

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Can't wait to see what happens in '06...........

It certainly won't be determined by this case, Cat. :gulp:

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
It certainly won't be determined by this case, Cat. :gulp:

In and of itself, maybe not.

But when you add the Chimp's attacks on Social Security & Medicare, the continued quagmire in Iraq, and any other stupid things PNAC may do in the meantime, not to mention $3.00/gallon gas prices by next summer, and the overall economic damage that will bring with it....

...even Diebold and the whore media won't be able to save the neocons this time. People are starting to wake up.

[Warham]

Na, when they see Hillary in '08, they'll still vote Republican.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
Na, when they see Hillary in '08, they'll still vote Republican.

That ain't gonna happen.

[Warham]

Why not? Dean took himself out of the running. Kerry doesn't have a chance. Gore? No way!

Who's left?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
Why not? Dean took himself out of the running. Kerry doesn't have a chance. Gore? No way!

Who's left?

It's March of 2005. Who knows and who cares? Ask me again in March of 2007 after the new Congress starts the slow recovery from the BCE damage to this country.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Na, when they see Hillary in '08, they'll still vote Republican.

Oh so everyone will vote AGAINST Hillary (if it happens). Who will they be voting for? Seems like you have a bunch of shits lined up. You know McCain will never past muster with the religious right!

[Warham]

Originally posted by FORD
It's March of 2005. Who knows and who cares? Ask me again in March of 2007 after the new Congress starts the slow recovery from the BCE damage to this country.

FORD,

You know she's going to run, and that's that. She's been going centrist lately just like her hubby did before '92, because if she went at it like a flaming liberal, she'd never win the nomination.

And the Congress will not turn majority Democrat in 2006, either.

I'll lay money on that.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Oh so everyone will vote AGAINST Hillary (if it happens). Who will they be voting for? Seems like you have a bunch of shits lined up. You know McCain will never past muster with the religious right!

Rudy might.

I'd vote for the guy.

Thing is, Nick, McCain is a favorite amongst the media, and will probably take some of those swing votes that would normally go Democrat since he puts himself out as a centrist. The religious right will ALWAYS back the Republican candidate, even if he doesn't back their agenda totally.

[FORD]

Rudy was in on the 9-11 coverup. Fuck that asshole.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by FORD
Rudy was in on the 9-11 coverup. Fuck that asshole.

I agree. But he plays well. And as much as I disagree with his method, there's no denying he gets the results he wants.

Again, regardless (and with no regard either) of the means.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Oh so everyone will vote AGAINST Hillary (if it happens). Who will they be voting for? Seems like you have a bunch of shits lined up. You know McCain will never past muster with the religious right!

Keep betting that way, Nick. Keep betting that way.

:gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by academic punk
I agree. But he plays well. And as much as I disagree with his method, there's no denying he gets the results he wants.

Again, regardless (and with no regard either) of the means.


Simply amazing that you you, AP, think RG was in on some kind of conspiracy or coverup on 9/11. Mind boggling. I can believe it with FORD....but you?

Tin Foil Beanie Time. :gulp:

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by FORD
Rudy was in on the 9-11 coverup. Fuck that asshole.

What 9-11 coverup?

I am a registered Democrat but I would vote for Rudy OR McCain over ANY of the prospective Democratic nominees in '08.

[academic punk]

I'm not entirely sure what he's referring to there, but one thing I do know that for some reason has never been exposed in the media is that a number of gas tanks were stored in building 7 - illegally - for months.

Rudy lost my vote entirely with his performance at the RNC last year.

The man is miles away from Bush on social issues, and there he was kissing ass on the daisy chain, trying to get into the good graces of the religious right.

This after vowing that 9/11 should never be exploited for political gain.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
What 9-11 coverup?

I am a registered Democrat but I would vote for Rudy OR McCain over ANY of the prospective Democratic nominees in '08.

I'd consider McCain, but not Rudy. He's another enabling hypocrite that stood by while the Federal Gov't shortchanged NY with Homeland Security funding.

And again, neither will pass muster with the Republican extremist right. Guiliani was living with a male gay-couple after he was thrown out of the mayor's residence by "Vagina Monologues." He was also having an extramarital affair (technically speaking), not with any gays though. Karl Rove will have a field day with that one.

[Nickdfresh]

March 28, 2005

NEWS ANALYSIS
'Culture of Life' Issues Split GOP

By Ronald Brownstein, LATimes (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-assess28mar28.story) Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — Over a roller-coaster week, the Terri Schiavo case demonstrated both the political gains religious conservatives have achieved over the last generation and the challenges they still face in building a consensus for their agenda.

The aggressive intervention by President Bush and congressional Republicans in the conflict underscored their commitment to social conservative causes, while the muted, hesitant response from most Democrats highlighted their uncertainty about handling values issues after the 2004 elections.

Yet as legal and political options for extending Schiavo's life dwindled, so did public support for Washington's involvement in the dispute, according to several national polls. In a CBS News survey, opposition was so widespread that even decisive majorities of Republicans, conservatives and white evangelical Christians said Bush and Congress should not have intervened.

To many analysts, the resistance to Washington's role illustrated the challenges Bush and other social conservatives face in forging consensus for a "culture of life" agenda that includes issues such as abortion, embryonic stem cell research and end-of-life cases.

"It is difficult to build a culture of life that covers more than just a handful of issues," said John C. Green, a political scientist at the University of Akron who specializes in religion and politics. "And the more types of issues you try to include under that framework, the more difficult it becomes."

In a nation accustomed to bitter divisions over cultural issues, the Schiavo dispute may have unexpectedly illuminated a point of consensus.

Although a core of social conservative activists passionately embraced the cause of extending the Florida woman's life — and many Americans felt conflicted about her fate — the case seems to show the limits of public tolerance for political involvement in such intimate decisions.

"My sense is this is one issue where everybody understands the other point of view," said David Winston, a Republican pollster. "But clearly people don't want government being involved in decisions like this."

Operatives from the two parties divided predictably on the controversy's long-term political effect. Some Democrats said they expected Bush and congressional Republicans would be hurt by the public recoil against Washington's role, while most Republicans said the issue was unlikely to cause lasting damage and could help the party by motivating its most ardent supporters.

But many on both sides agree that the emotional confrontation — and the constellation of similar issues developing from advances in medicine and science — will reinforce the shift from economic interests to cultural values as the principal force unifying each party's electoral coalition.

"We have moved from an alignment that is primarily based on class to one that is primarily based on culture," said Mark Mellman, the pollster for 2004 presidential nominee Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.). "And one of the consequences of that change is that the issues we are talking about are not easy to compromise."

As the options diminished for Schiavo's parents in their legal battle to keep her alive, some social conservatives urged Florida Gov. Jeb Bush to take further action, even if it meant violating court orders. But many acknowledge that Republican leaders in Washington and Florida have demonstrated a powerful commitment to Christian conservatives by pursuing the case so ardently.

"There are some on the right who feel that Gov. Bush and President Bush have not gone far enough," said Gary Bauer, a leading social conservative. "But quite frankly, it's impressive to see what they were willing to do on an issue where fairly early on it was obvious that the general public is divided at best."

The case measures not only the rising influence of social conservatives in the GOP, but also their broadening political strategy. And the controversy is likely to stand as a milestone in efforts by the president and other Republicans to present much of their social agenda as part of a culture of life.

President Bush and other GOP officials, echoing language from religious leaders, increasingly apply that phrase to their views on issues revolving around the beginning and end of life — such as their support for banning abortion and opposition to embryonic stem cell research and euthanasia.

Many Democrats see the effort to link these issues as a back-door attempt to undermine support for legal abortion by implicitly tying it to unsettling practices such as euthanasia. Yet the sharp reaction in polls against federal intervention in the Schiavo case suggests that many Americans, even many conservatives, view these issues less in philosophical than pragmatic terms and do not hold opinions that activists on either side would consider consistent.

"It is real simple: There is not one culture of life set of opinions," said Andrew Kohut, director of the nonpartisan Pew Research Center for the People and the Press. "Views about abortion are different than about end-of-life issues — and certainly very different than how people feel about capital punishment."

Green, of the University of Akron, said: "While there may be deep divisions over when life begins and when it ends, there does seem to be this pragmatic consensus that these sorts of things ought to be settled as much by individuals and as much locally as possible."

Most political strategists in both parties agree that the specific controversy over Schiavo is likely to fade from public attention long before it can influence the 2006 congressional elections, much less the next presidential race.

Yet the controversy adds another piece to the mosaic that illustrates the two parties' cultural priorities — and provides cues to voters who have increasingly sorted between Democrats and Republicans based on their own cultural views.

Democrats never developed a clear message on the Schiavo case, with the party's House leaders dividing in their votes and few party leaders making strong statements. But many Democratic strategists believe the party could benefit among moderate swing voters who believe Republicans overreached in the matter. Some Democrats noted that in several surveys last week, Bush's approval rating slipped to 45% or below — among his worst — while the marks for Congress skidded under 40%.

"The Republican Party traditionally has been the party opposed to the expansion of the federal government," said Mellman, the pollster for Kerry. "Now, across a whole range of issues, they have shown a commitment to expanding the reach of the federal government into personal life beyond which anybody has contemplated before."

Although some libertarian conservatives raised similar concerns, several GOP strategists close to the White House said they doubted the Schiavo case would hurt the party. In part, that reflects their view that even many swing voters who resist some of Bush's policies support him because they consider him a strong and charismatic leader.

But it also reflects a belief among some GOP strategists that the case will energize the Republican base for 2006. And despite public resistance to federal involvement in this instance, these strategists think the overarching culture of life argument ultimately places Democrats in an untenable position.

"When you take [Democratic] opposition to partial-birth abortion at the beginning of life, and [acceptance of] pulling plugs at the end of life, you begin to get in a danger zone," said one GOP strategist close to the White House. "It could be that this case reinforces a larger impression … of the Democratic Party."

For now, the clearest message from most Americans may be that they want political leaders to back away from a case that the public sees less as a philosophical touchstone than a private tragedy.

"I think the vast majority of Americans … thinks this is a very difficult situation," said Matthew Dowd, a senior strategist for Bush's reelection campaign. "They are glad they don't have to make the decision that is involved, and they don't see it as something they want to be forced to have a political dialogue about."

[Jesterstar]

Let me Tell you why their cause isn't as damaged as your perceptiions are telling you.

What they are doing now with these polls and these illusions of concern over the constitution.

Neither side actually cares. Not to say that their aren't individuals in congress and senate that actually are trying to do good for america. Because there are.

This is a plan to make us beleive that our government isn't hijacked even though it is. We are dangerously close to a Monarchy in this country. And if you really think about we always have been.

They are really pulling it off also. Because look at the phycology of it. Even people that say they don't care have to exspress a opinion on it distracting them and others from any other real issues going on. Such as....................IRAQ.................Remembe r that little war for oil that we are fighting???

No you don't because you've been distracted with bullshit because this is what they are masters of.

[Jesterstar]

Originally posted by FORD
Rudy was in on the 9-11 coverup. Fuck that asshole.

Rudy is a fucking Gangsta Muther fucker. He was running the city of New York like a crime boss. Then he EXSPLOITED the 9/11 Tragedy to make himself UNTOUCHABLE.

Of course he participated in the coverup. Who do you think go the dump trucks to haul away the materials before a full investigation of the buildings structural integredy could take place.

Then who helped the Mob Get all the Scrap Metal for resale so it could be melted down???

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Jesterstar
Rudy is a fucking Gangsta Muther fucker. He was running the city of New York like a crime boss. Then he EXSPLOITED the 9/11 Tragedy to make himself UNTOUCHABLE.

Of course he participated in the coverup. Who do you think go the dump trucks to haul away the materials before a full investigation of the buildings structural integredy could take place.

Then who helped the Mob Get all the Scrap Metal for resale so it could be melted down???

Yeah, lets let all that crap sit ther FOREVER. :rolleyes:

[academic punk]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Simply amazing that you you, AP, think RG was in on some kind of conspiracy or coverup on 9/11. Mind boggling. I can believe it with FORD....but you?

Tin Foil Beanie Time. :gulp:

To clarify: I don't think he was in on a conspiracy re: 9/11. (a cover-up, yes: he had ordered the a great deal of the city's fuel tanks to be illegally in tower 7. obviously, he would like that faux-pas kept as quiet as possible.)

what I was referring to was his use of bending the law to his will to get the results he would like.

The city had a record number of lawsuits against it when he was mayor (and a number still pending) re: abuse of civil rights, illegal raids, etc etc..

Whether the cost to the city of settling these suits in the long run worked for NYC is questionable.

On the other hand, it's the only timer I can remember in my life that NYC has had virtually NO homeless people on the streets (he cleaned up the streets only inj the sense that he threw them all in jail while cutting the budgets for shelters).

But the city was incredibly clean: now sanitation pick-up is half it was during his time here.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Simply amazing that you you, AP, think RG was in on some kind of conspiracy or coverup on 9/11. Mind boggling. I can believe it with FORD....but you?

Tin Foil Beanie Time. :gulp:

To clarify: I don't think he was in on a conspiracy re: 9/11. (a cover-up, yes: he had ordered the a great deal of the city's fuel tanks to be illegally in tower 7. obviously, he would like that faux-pas kept as quiet as possible.)

what I was referring to was his use of bending the law to his will to get the results he would like.

The city had a record number of lawsuits against it when he was mayor (and a number still pending) re: abuse of civil rights, illegal raids, etc etc..

Whether the cost to the city of settling these suits in the long run worked for NYC is questionable.

On the other hand, it's the only timer I can remember in my life that NYC has had virtually NO homeless people on the streets (he cleaned up the streets only inj the sense that he threw them all in jail while cutting the budgets for shelters).

But the city was incredibly clean: now sanitation pick-up is half it was during his time here.

[academic punk]

Guilliani is/was also a close personal friend and professional associate of bernie ebbers, recently convicted of robbing his company WORLDCOM of millions and millions of dollars.

Rudy went a long way in trying to dissuade the courts from pursuing the case and trial. he might have succeeded too, if Eliot Spitzer - now running for governor of NY - knew that earning a guilty verdict and conviction would be a great mea culpa for his PR machine.

But again, do I believe that Giulliani know the planes were on the way? Absolutely not.

[Jesterstar]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yeah, lets let all that crap sit ther FOREVER. :rolleyes:

Ummmmmmmmmmmm No.

But let's let it be around long enough to find out why the structure of the building failed. It's part of any investigation of any building malfunction.

[Nickdfresh]

Might be tougher to rig the elections in Flordia the next couple of years!;)

March 29, 2005

2 Issues Straining GOP Grip in Florida

By Peter Wallsten, LATimes (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-politics29mar29.story) Staff Writer

WASHINGTON — President Bush's decisive victory in Florida last year seemed to cement Republican dominance in an important battleground state that once symbolized an evenly divided nation.

But with the GOP base polarized over the Terri Schiavo case and the public skeptical of Bush's plan to overhaul Social Security, two issues with explosive relevance in Florida are stirring up confusing political crosscurrents for Republicans preparing to face the voters there next year.

On both fronts, President Bush and his brother Gov. Jeb Bush are promoting positions that put fellow Republicans on the spot, just before important campaigns that will determine the governor's successor and the fate of Florida's lone Democrat holding statewide office, Sen. Bill Nelson.

Polls show the public overwhelmingly opposed to intervention by Congress and President Bush in the case of Schiavo, the brain-damaged woman whose family has been bitterly split over the decision to remove her feeding tube. But the religious conservatives who pressed hard for politicians in Tallahassee and Washington to act to have the the tube reinserted could play a pivotal role in the races for governor and Senate.

At the same time, public opposition has been mounting against the president's plan to let younger workers divert a portion of their Social Security payroll taxes into private investment accounts. The president's proposal is particularly unpopular among seniors, and so candidates in the senior-rich state are especially vulnerable to the charge that such a change could endanger benefits.

"It may be that we tried to load the wagon with too many watermelons," said Tom Slade, Florida's former Republican Party chairman. "There's not … a lot of good news on our side of the aisle at this minute."

The conflicting dynamics in Florida are crucial for national Republicans as they seek to enhance their power in Washington and state capitals across the country.

In 2004, President Bush's campaign stunned Democrats by extending the 537-vote margin of victory in Florida of four years earlier into a margin of more than 300,000. Republicans drew on massive turnout in conservative northern and central parts of the state that outweighed the liberal strongholds in Palm Beach, Broward and Miami-Dade counties to the south.

GOP strategists are hoping to build on those gains next year in the fourth-largest state by ousting Nelson — a goal underscored by a memo, ascribed to the Senate leadership, that surfaced amid the Schiavo debate in Congress extolling the political advantages of using the Schiavo case to rally the conservative base against the Democratic senator.

With term limits forcing Gov. Bush to leave office in January 2007, another high-stakes campaign has begun, with crowded primary fields. Strategists in both parties expect the Schiavo controversy and Social Security to be potent and unpredictable issues. Those issues could also be important in several potentially competitive congressional races in districts now held by Republicans E. Clay Shaw Jr., Ginny Brown-Waite and Katherine Harris.

Underscoring the prominence of these issues for both parties, Nelson plans to campaign aggressively in his opposition to the Bush Social Security plan.

But on Schiavo, Nelson ultimately voted with the GOP congressional leadership to give the ailing woman's parents new recourse to ask federal courts to order her feeding tube reconnected. That vote seemingly deflated the Republicans' hope of galvanizing conservatives against him.

"This has all made a very smooth-running Republican operation kind of take a couple of detours, with respect to the risks on Schiavo and people having different views on Social Security," said Cory Tilley, a Florida Republican strategist and former aide to Gov. Bush.

Still, Tilley cautioned: "It's too early to tell the full impact. The organization the Republican Party has in Florida compared to the Democrat Party is so well put together, I don't think these issues will turn the tables."

Both issues could also affect the political future of Gov. Bush, who won praise from many religious conservatives when he embraced the cause of Schiavo's parents two years ago. Though the parents have sought measures to keep their daughter alive, Schiavo's husband, Michael, has won court approval to disconnect the feeding tube.

The governor has said he will not run for president in 2008, but the Schiavo case has renewed a focus on his intentions. Despite complaints in recent days from a few conservative activists that he did not go far enough to keep Schiavo alive, state GOP strategists said Gov. Bush had boosted his profile with the national party base above that of other 2008 contenders. Moreover, they said, criticism from the right could lead party moderates to conclude that his position was not as extreme as Democrats have charged.

Still, some Republicans are grasping to find the right approach to issues that, at least for now, spur emotional responses among different key voting blocs.

No situation illustrates the situation better than that of Republican Rep. Brown-Waite, whose district north of the Tampa Bay area is closely divided between Republicans and Democrats.

As the House member who represents more Social Security beneficiaries than any other in the country, Brown-Waite has been studiously careful to distance herself from Bush's proposed overhaul of the retirement program — even drafting legislation that would outlaw the kinds of benefit cuts that critics charge could result from the Bush plan.

On the Schiavo legislation, she broke from her party ranks last week to vote against intervening in the case. In a floor speech, she quoted her daughter as saying that she would want to die if she were in Schiavo's situation.

"No, Mom, if you really loved me, you would want me to have rest and meet the Lord," her daughter said, according to the congresswoman..

Rep. Shaw, a moderate Republican whose politics reflect his senior-heavy South Florida district, faces similar pressures. He did not return to Washington for the Schiavo vote, and on Social Security he has proposed an alternative to Bush's plan that would create private accounts as an add-on to the Social Security system, a compromise that has been embraced by Democrats.

Hoping to exploit the pressure on Shaw, the Democratic state senator planning to challenge him next year issued a news release last week blasting the congressman for skipping the Schiavo vote.

"He had two days' notice to get up there, and he couldn't do it," said state Sen. Ron Klein, the Democrat planning to challenge Shaw, who cast one of the crucial legislative votes last week in Tallahassee to block a last-ditch effort by Schiavo's parents. "I made my choice clear on this. You have a responsibility to register your vote."

Like Klein, some Democrats believe they will get a political boost from the Schiavo case and the Social Security battle.

While the Republican contenders for governor have kept low profiles on the Schiavo case, for example, the Democratic contenders have uniformly condemned intervention by Gov. Bush, Congress and the president.

Scott Maddox, the state Democratic Party chairman and a likely candidate for governor next year, said Republicans were "overplaying their hand in both cases" and Democrats would be sure to capitalize on that.

GOP strategists believe the Schiavo case could be most explosive in their party's gubernatorial primary, expected to pit Florida's elected chief financial officer, Tom Gallagher, a moderate Republican, against Atty. Gen. Charlie Crist, who is more popular among conservatives.

Gallagher, who has a history of supporting abortion rights, spoke at a "Save Terri" rally this month, apparently trying to shore up his conservative credentials in anticipation of a primary that could hinge on issues of life. "Our creator has given us life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and only he has the power to take it away," Gallagher said, according to an Associated Press report.

Crist has steered clear of the issue.

"The people that are activists in the evangelical community, they're going to vote for the most conservative candidate," said David Johnson, a Tallahassee-based Republican strategist. "This isn't going to be as red-hot then as it is now, but the question is, will it be a mobilizer for those who feel strongly and normally don't vote in primaries?"

On both issues, strategists said, the politics for Republicans depend on future events.

On Social Security, the president might still convince seniors that their benefits will not be affected by his plan or that they should support his proposal for other reasons.

Or, he may compromise on the private accounts that have so riled opponents.

On Schiavo, it is not clear whether activists will be able to harness today's emotions for an election more than a year away.

"There's no turbulence in the Republican base," said John Thrasher, former Republican state House speaker and a close ally of both Bushes.

[Jesterstar]

The republicans don't give a fuck. Don't doubt them.

[fe_lung]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Can't wait to see what happens in '06...........


The next election cycle is too far away for this to matter. The public has a short attention span.

[Nickdfresh]

Social Security will have a long shelf-life.


BTW, that's what the Democrats said right before they lost control of both Houses.