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frets5150
03-31-2005, 12:46 PM
Case Divided Family and Spurred National Debate
PINELLAS PARK, Fla. (March 31) - Terri Schiavo, the severely brain-damaged woman who spent 15 years connected to a feeding tube in an epic legal and medical battle that went all the way to the White House and Congress, died Thursday, 13 days after the tube was removed. She was 41.

Schiavo died at the Pinellas Park hospice where she lay for years while her husband and her parents fought over her in the nation's most bitter - and most heavily litigated - right-to-die dispute.

The feud between the parents, Bob and Mary Schindler, and their son-in-law continued even after her death: The Schindlers' spiritual advisers said the couple had been at their daughter's besides minutes before the end came, but were not there at the moment of her death because Michael Schiavo did not want them in the room.

''And so his heartless cruelty continues until this very last moment,'' said the Rev. Frank Pavone. He added: ''This is not only a death, with all the sadness that brings, but this is a killing, and for that we not only grieve that Terri has passed but we grieve that our nation has allowed such an atrocity as this and we pray that it will never happen again.'

David Gibbs III, a lawyer for the Schindlers, said: ''This is indeed a sad day for the nation, for the family. ... God loves Terri more than they do. She is at peace.''

Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, announced the death but had no immediate comment beyond that.

President Bush says millions of Americans are saddened by Terri Schiavo's death and that ''the strong have a duty to protect the weak.''

A small group of activists sang religious hymns outside the hospice, raising their hands to the sky and closing their eyes.

Dawn Kozsey, 47, a musician who was among those outside Schiavo's hospice, wept. ''Words cannot express the rage I feel,'' she said. ''Is my heart broken for this? Yes.''

Schiavo suffered severe brain damage in 1990 after her heart stopped because of a chemical imbalance that was believed to have been brought on by an eating disorder. Court-appointed doctors ruled she was in a persistent vegetative state, with no real consciousness or chance of recovery.

The feeding tube was removed with a judge's approval March 18 after Michael Schiavo argued that his wife told him long ago she would not want to be kept alive artificially. His in-laws disputed that, and argued that she could get better with treatment. They said she laughed, cried, responded to them and tried to talk.

During the seven-year legal battle, Florida lawmakers, Congress and President Bush tried to intervene on behalf of her parents, but state and federal courts at all levels repeatedly ruled in favor of her husband. The case focused national attention on living wills, since Schiavo left no written instructions in case she became disabled.

After the tube that supplied a nutrient solution was disconnected, protesters streamed into Pinellas Park to keep vigil outside her hospice, with many arrested as they tried to bring her food and water. The Vatican likened the removal of her feeding tube to capital punishment for an innocent woman. The Schindlers pleaded for their daughter's life, calling the removal of the tube ''judicial homicide.''An autopsy is planned, with both sides hoping it will shed more light on the extent of her brain injuries

Gov. Jeb Bush, whose repeated attempts to get the tube reconnected also failed, said that millions of people around the state and world will be ''deeply grieved'' by her death but that the debate over her fate could help others grapple with end-of-life issues.

''After an extraordinarily difficult and tragic journey, Terri Schiavo is at rest,'' Bush said. ''I remain convinced, however, that Terri's death is a window through which we can see the many issues left unresolved in our families and in our society. For that, we can be thankful for all that the life of Terri Schiavo has taught us.''

President Bush, the governor's brother, was expected to speak on Schiavo's death later Thursday.

Although several right-to-die cases have been fought in the courts across the nation in recent years, none had been this public, drawn-out and bitter.

Six times, the U.S. Supreme Court declined to intervene. Schiavo's fate was debated on the floor of Congress and by President Bush, who signed an extraordinary bill March 21 that let federal judges review her case.

''In extraordinary circumstances like this, it is wise to always err on the side of life,'' the president said.

But federal courts refused again and again to overturn the central ruling by Pinellas County Circuit Judge George W. Greer, who said Michael Schiavo had convinced him that Terri Schiavo would not have wanted to be kept alive by artificial means.

Described by her family as a shy woman who loved animals, music and basketball, Terri Schindler grew up in Pennsylvania and battled a weight problem in her youth.

''And then when she lost all the weight, she really became quite beautiful on the outside as well. What was inside she allowed to shine out at that point,'' a friend, Diane Meyer, said in 2003.

She met Michael Schiavo - pronounced SHY-voh - at Bucks County Community College near Philadelphia in 1982. They wed two years later. After they moved to Florida, she worked in an insurance agency.

But recurring battles with weight led to the eating disorder that was blamed for her collapse at age 26. Doctors said she suffered severe brain damage when her heart stopped beating because of a potassium imbalance. Her brain was deprived of oxygen for 10 minutes before she was revived, doctors estimated.

Because Terri Schiavo did not leave written wishes on her care, Florida law gave preference to Michael Schiavo over her parents. But the law also recognizes parents as having crucial opinions in the care of an incapacitated person.

A court-appointed physician testified her brain damage was so severe that there was no hope she would ever have any cognitive abilities.

Still, her parents, who visited her nearly every day, reported their daughter responded to their voices. Video showing the dark-haired woman appearing to interact with her family was televised nationally. But the court-appointed doctor said the noises and facial expressions were reflexes.

Still, her parents, who visited her nearly every day, reported their daughter responded to their voices. Video showing the dark-haired woman appearing to interact with her family was televised nationally. But the court-appointed doctor said the noises and facial expressions were reflexes.

Both sides accused each other of being motivated by greed over a $1 million medical malpractice award from doctors who failed to diagnose the chemical imbalance.

However, that money, which Michael Schiavo received in 1993, has all but evaporated, spent on his wife's care and the court fight. Just $40,000 to $50,000 remained as of mid-March.

Michael Schiavo's lawyers suggested the Schindlers wanted to get some of the money. And the Schindlers questioned their son-in-law's sincerity, saying he never mentioned his wife's wishes until winning the malpractice case.

The parents tried to have Michael Schiavo removed as his wife's guardian because he lives with another woman and has two children with her. Michael Schiavo refused to divorce his wife, saying he feared the Schindlers would ignore her desire to die.

Schiavo lived in her brain-damaged state longer than two other young women whose cases brought right-to-die issues to the forefront of public attention.

Karen Quinlan lived for more than a decade in a vegetative state - brought on by alcohol and drugs in 1975 when she was 21; New Jersey courts let her parents take her off a respirator a year after her injury. Nancy Cruzan, who was 25 when a 1983 car crash placed her in a vegetative state, lived nearly eight years before the U.S. Supreme Court ruled that her parents could withdraw her feeding tube.

Schiavo's feeding tube was briefly removed in 2001. It was reinserted after two days when a court intervened. In October 2003, the tube was removed again, but Gov. Jeb Bush rushed ''Terri's Law'' through the Legislature, allowing the state to have the feeding tube reinserted after six days. The Florida Supreme Court later ruled that law was an unconstitutional interference in the judicial system.

Nearly two weeks ago, the tube was removed for a third and final time.


03-31-05 1134EST


R I P

nosuchluck
03-31-2005, 12:47 PM
RIP

frets5150
03-31-2005, 01:14 PM
Can someone please answer this question when Dr. Kevorkian helped terminally ill patients pass on why was he arrested!!! Now this on the other hand is MURDER The husband said she did'nt wanna live like that how do we know this for sure? Terri Schiavo should have been givin the benifit of the doubt.This is total BULLSHIT.

Seshmeister
03-31-2005, 03:32 PM
Do you know anyone that would want to live like that?

Mezro
03-31-2005, 03:39 PM
Nobody would want to live like a vegetable; a shell of what they once were.

She was like that for 15 fucking years people. The right thing to do was to let her slip away into rest.

This was a private family matter that the government and media had zero right to be involved in.

Mezro...fuck all the selfish right wingers and unemployed activists with their bullshit agenda...this woman had zero quality of life and her husband made the right choice which was also the tough one...

vanzilla
03-31-2005, 03:41 PM
Originally posted by Mezro
Nobody would want to live like a vegetable; a shell of what they once were.

She was like that for 15 fucking years people. The right thing to do was to let her slip away into rest.

This was a private family matter that the government and media had zero right to be involved in.

Mezro...fuck all the selfish right wingers and unemployed activists with their bullshit agenda...this woman had zero quality of life and her husband made the right choice which was also the tough one...

Finally a voice of reason.

Fabulous Shadow
03-31-2005, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Mezro
Nobody would want to live like a vegetable; a shell of what they once were.

She was like that for 15 fucking years people. The right thing to do was to let her slip away into rest.

This was a private family matter that the government and media had zero right to be involved in.

Mezro...fuck all the selfish right wingers and unemployed activists with their bullshit agenda...this woman had zero quality of life and her husband made the right choice which was also the tough one...

I agree, as expressed in the thread in Front Line.
May she finally RIP...

Don Corleone
03-31-2005, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Mezro
Nobody would want to live like a vegetable; a shell of what they once were.

She was like that for 15 fucking years people. The right thing to do was to let her slip away into rest.

This was a private family matter that the government and media had zero right to be involved in.

Mezro...fuck all the selfish right wingers and unemployed activists with their bullshit agenda...this woman had zero quality of life and her husband made the right choice which was also the tough one...

Well said

Fabulous Shadow
03-31-2005, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by frets5150
Can someone please answer this question when Dr. Kevorkian helped terminally ill patients pass on why was he arrested!!! Now this on the other hand is MURDER The husband said she did'nt wanna live like that how do we know this for sure? Terri Schiavo should have been givin the benifit of the doubt.This is total BULLSHIT.

The natural process of living and dieing was not being interuppted by medical technology. Their bodies, while dying, were funtioning on their own without assitance.

Matt White
03-31-2005, 04:02 PM
"The husband said she didn't wanna live like that how do we know this for sure?"

Who would know better than someones spouse?

Walk a mile in his shoes, get back to us.

frets5150
03-31-2005, 04:10 PM
How come her husband never wanted to try and rehabilate her? He refused it when it first happened and how does anyone know for sure
that she did'nt want to be kept alive.It is his word against her's but she could not speak for herself. This just plain sucks

vanzilla
03-31-2005, 04:23 PM
What plain sucks is Eddie's playing these days. But that's another point all together frets...

Anyway, what is the solution. Having the government intervene and pass some right to live legislation? I want the government staying the fuck out of my right to live or die.

As far as trying to rehabilitate her, maybe if there were some funding for some stem cell research this would be possible. Unfortunately this isn't going to happen under the Bush Admnistration.

This lady died 15 years ago. Her suffering ended today.

Matt White
03-31-2005, 04:25 PM
"How come her husband never wanted to try and rehabilate her?"

How would you "rehabilitate" someone whose brain is gone?!?

It was/is a family matter that should have remained that way.

It's shameful to grandstand over a families tragedy.

frets5150
03-31-2005, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by Matt White
"The husband said she didn't wanna live like that how do we know this for sure?"

Who would know better than someones spouse?

Walk a mile in his shoes, get back to us.

Ok so you are 100% sure she wanted to die?

Matt White
03-31-2005, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by frets5150
Ok so you are 100% sure she wanted to die?

None of my business.

When I had a family member die, I couldn't have given a care to what a NON family member thought of the situation.

vanzilla
03-31-2005, 04:34 PM
Originally posted by frets5150
Ok so you are 100% sure she wanted to die?

Speaking for Matt, and myself - No - we're not 100% sure she wanted to die. You know who was - her husband. She told him. Unfortunately, like most Americans, she never had a living will to verify it. Instead she had a VERBAL CONTRACT.

Are you sure she 100% wanted to live? No you're not - BECAUSE YOU DIDN'T FUCKING KNOW THIS LADY. Her mom and dad claim she wanted to live. But guess what, they weren't 100% sure. Why is that frets. It's because - SHE DIDN'T FUCKING TELL THEM! There was no verbal contract.

So there you have it. Ultimately this boils down to a private family matter that the media and government, and people like your self (although I'm sure you have the best intentions - don't take this personally) have made into one big circus.

What business of yours or mine is it if Terry Schiavo lives or dies? We have no business because it's a family matter. End of discussion. Period.

If you're so concerned about your right to live/die just in case something as tragic as this every occurs to you THEN MAKE A LIVING WILL.

Other than that all you have the right to do is just shut the fuck up and live your life. The grandstanding for religious or political purposes is ridiculous.

frets5150
03-31-2005, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by Matt White
"How come her husband never wanted to try and rehabilate her?"

How would you "rehabilitate" someone whose brain is gone?!?

It was/is a family matter that should have remained that way.

It's shameful to grandstand over a families tragedy.

When this first happened she could have gotten some rehab granted she would never be the way she was but i don't think she would have been as bad as she was.

Matt White
03-31-2005, 04:38 PM
A sad story, no matter how you look at it.

It should make people go out and draw up a "Living Will".

RIP & GOD BLESS.

Seshmeister
03-31-2005, 04:38 PM
Also why were all the 'religious' nuts so determined that she should lie there a zombie rather than getting to go to heaven which is meant to be great fun?

bueno bob
03-31-2005, 04:40 PM
Originally posted by frets5150
Ok so you are 100% sure she wanted to die?

Ask 5 random people you work with if they'd be happy living for 15 years with NO CHANCE of rehabilitation, living as a complete and total veg with no options to you other than to maybe watch the machines keep you going. See what their responses are. I guarantee you about the only response you'll get is "Pull my plug".

Would YOU want to keep living?

Some things are worse than death.

I'm just glad all of this shit is over so that people can actually focus on more important and continentally relevant issues.

bueno bob
03-31-2005, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
Also why were all the 'religious' nuts so determined that she should lie there a zombie rather than getting to go to heaven which is meant to be great fun?

It's the whole "suicide" thing...ultimate sin in taking a life or taking your own life, assisted suicide is a definite hot topic among the zealots. God is keeping you alive for a reason and so forth - of course, the inevitable debate that leads to is this - if a machine is the only means of a person being kept alive, as was this case, have we managed to supercede God's ultimate authority over life and death?

Ask a zealot that and watch their brain go haywire ;)

Warham
03-31-2005, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
Also why were all the 'religious' nuts so determined that she should lie there a zombie rather than getting to go to heaven which is meant to be great fun?

They would suggest 'sanctity of life'.

frets5150
03-31-2005, 04:48 PM
Other than that all you have the right to do is just shut the fuck up and live your life. The grandstanding for religious or political purposes is ridiculous

You can shut the fuck up but i won't this woman was murdered plain and simple.And how the fuck did i turn this into a circus YOU DIDN'T FUCKING KNOW THIS LADY Neither did you so how do you know what she wanted just because her husband said so .

Seshmeister
03-31-2005, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by bueno bob
It's the whole "suicide" thing...ultimate sin in taking a life or taking your own life, assisted suicide is a definite hot topic among the zealots. God is keeping you alive for a reason and so forth - of course, the inevitable debate that leads to is this - if a machine is the only means of a person being kept alive, as was this case, have we managed to supercede God's ultimate authority over life and death?

Ask a zealot that and watch their brain go haywire ;)

It also leads to the debate that if god is keeping you alive for a reason then he's also going about killing babies for his own reasons which means he's a cunt and not to be trusted...:)

Fabulous Shadow
03-31-2005, 05:00 PM
Nevermind Terri Schiavo... I'm not certain I would want to live the quality of life Christopher Reeves was left with after his accident either.
Not only does it suk for you, but also for your family. Watching someone suffer and live a life with little quality is hard. I've done it.

bueno bob
03-31-2005, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by frets5150
Other than that all you have the right to do is just shut the fuck up and live your life. The grandstanding for religious or political purposes is ridiculous

You can shut the fuck up but i won't this woman was murdered plain and simple.And how the fuck did i turn this into a circus YOU DIDN'T FUCKING KNOW THIS LADY Neither did you so how do you know what she wanted just because her husband said so .

Well, you know what? It's her husband, and he should have been the top authority on this, whether her parents agreed or whether they didn't.

I'll say this for certain - if MY wife were in the same position (God forbid), I KNOW her wishes and I would fight TOOTH AND NAIL to get those damn things unplugged, and I know she'd be behind me 110% of the way, even if it came down to sneaking into her room and bashing the ever-loving shit out of the machines with a fucking baseball bat, and my wife's parents be damned if they didn't like it (in our case, her parents would be totally supportive of unplugging her, but that's beside the point).

Is it really that difficult to see that her husband probably knew her wishes better than anybody else? Being married myself, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to believe that's the case, really.

Warham
03-31-2005, 05:04 PM
How many healthy folks in their 20's talk to their spouses about persistant vegetative states, and what to do if they ever get into one?

I know I sure as hell never mentioned it, or really thought about it for more than a few seconds at any one time.

bueno bob
03-31-2005, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Fabulous Shadow
Nevermind Terri Schiavo... I'm not certain I would want to live the quality of life Christopher Reeves was left with after his accident either.
Not only does it suck for you, but also for your family. Watching someone suffer and live a life with little quality is hard. I've done it.

Chris Reeve, that man was a CLASS ACT and an inspiration for everyone from those suffering like him to the average joe on the street from the day it happened to the day he left.

I hear ya on that, Fab - it's difficult watching somebody's quality of life slipping away. My mother went that way last year, but thankfully her last days were full and meaningful to her, and it didn't last too long.

bueno bob
03-31-2005, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Warham
How many healthy folks in their 20's talk to their spouses about persistant vegetative states, and what to do if they ever get into one?

I know I sure as hell never mentioned it, or really thought about it for more than a few seconds at any one time.

On a serious note, War, my wife and I have discussed it plenty, and we discussed it very early on into our relationship. Just sayin'...

:)

By the way, THANK YOU for that e-mail. Very, very interesting reading!

Warham
03-31-2005, 05:08 PM
So you DID get it, eh?

I was beginning to wonder if I still remembered how to send e-mail or not.

:D

frets5150
03-31-2005, 05:10 PM
Well then i guess it should be mandatory for every married couple by law to have this in writing about livin or dyin so this does never happen again.

bueno bob
03-31-2005, 05:11 PM
Yeah, it was quite interesting!

Now, my wife's a confirmed atheist, but she's interested in new discoveries of a religious nature, so I'm thinking about forwarding it on to her tonight if you're not opposed, just to get her views on it...I imagine she'll probably call bullshit on it (she pretty much calls bullshit on anything of a religious nature, which I think is somewhat narrow, but I digress...), but I think it's some pretty interesting stuff indeed, personally.

Fabulous Shadow
03-31-2005, 05:12 PM
I think her parents were in denial about the interactions they were having with her. I don't think they were being selfish in their wish to keep her alive I think they just honestly believe she was still in there.
If I am not mistaken, Dr's have confirmed that she was not and there was no chance of recovery. They just need to accept it. Now they too can move on.

bueno bob
03-31-2005, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by frets5150
Well then i guess it should be mandatory for every married couple by law to have this in writing about livin or dyin so this does never happen again.

Having a living will drawn up when you're young is generally speaking a pretty good idea - I know exactly how fragile the human condition is, and it's always best to be prepared for ANYTHING that could materialize on a day to day basis.

I could walk out of my house right now and get shot in whatever passes for my brain by any crazed lunatic - the shit happens all the time...but the funny thing is, notice how it always happens to somebody else?

You NEVER know when your number is up. Plan ahead and don't be sorry later. I'd imagine Terri's husband has probably kicked himself about it over the last fifteen years or so.

Fabulous Shadow
03-31-2005, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by frets5150
Well then i guess it should be mandatory for every married couple by law to have this in writing about livin or dyin so this does never happen again.

Probably so. That said, my estranged husband knows my wishes while my family does not.

bueno bob
03-31-2005, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Fabulous Shadow
I think her parents were in denial about the interactions they were having with her. I don't think they were being selfish in their wish to keep her alive I think they just honestly believe she was still in there.
If I am not mistaken, Dr's have confirmed that she was not and there was no chance of recovery. They just need to accept it. Now they too can move on.

To my understanding, that's correct, her brain was gone and there was nothing there at all, according to all the physicians. Being a parent also, I can understand how and why Terri's parents felt the way they did - were it to happen to one of my kids, I can't guarantee that I wouldn't react the same way, but...at the end of the day, when confronted with the inevitable, I'd have to let go.

I'm sure it's been very difficult on all parties involved, and the media circus that's spread up around this hasn't made matters any easier for anybody.

Seshmeister
03-31-2005, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by Fabulous Shadow
Watching someone suffer and live a life with little quality is hard. I've done it.

Do you need to mention your husband in EVERY post...?

Fabulous Shadow
03-31-2005, 05:15 PM
Originally posted by bueno bob
I could walk out of my house right now and get shot in whatever passes for my brain by any crazed lunatic -

Crazed Lunatic- Army member perhaps? ;)

Fabulous Shadow
03-31-2005, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
Do you need to mention your husband in EVERY thread...

No... But it is appropriate here.

Seshmeister
03-31-2005, 05:18 PM
Whoosh...:)

Fabulous Shadow
03-31-2005, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by bueno bob
To my understanding, that's correct, her brain was gone and there was nothing there at all, according to all the physicians. Being a parent also, I can understand how and why Terri's parents felt the way they did - were it to happen to one of my kids, I can't guarantee that I wouldn't react the same way, but...at the end of the day, when confronted with the inevitable, I'd have to let go.

I'm sure it's been very difficult on all parties involved, and the media circus that's spread up around this hasn't made matters any easier for anybody.

Agreed Bob... My HUSBAND and I were debating this exact topic last night and we got to the topic of our son. He did not believe that if FORCED to make a decision, I would choose dealth over any capacity of LIFE. My son is my world, which is why I would let him go rather than suffer for my own selfish wants and needs.

bueno bob
03-31-2005, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Fabulous Shadow
Agreed Bob... My HUSBAND and I were debating this exact topic last night and we got to the topic of our son. He did not believe that if FORCED to make a decision, I would choose dealth over any capacity of LIFE. My son is my world, which is why I would let him go rather than suffer for my own selfish wants and needs.

I hear ya on that. I love all 3 of my kids to death, even if they are annoying little bastards 90% of the time ;)

But if it all came down to that, I'd prefer to have the majority of my memories being the positive ones, not like that.

vanzilla
03-31-2005, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by frets5150
Other than that all you have the right to do is just shut the fuck up and live your life. The grandstanding for religious or political purposes is ridiculous

You can shut the fuck up but i won't this woman was murdered plain and simple.And how the fuck did i turn this into a circus YOU DIDN'T FUCKING KNOW THIS LADY Neither did you so how do you know what she wanted just because her husband said so .

You're making my point for me. Thank you.

And frets, I never meant for this to get ugly. Let's take a breather.

vanzilla
03-31-2005, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by frets5150
Well then i guess it should be mandatory for every married couple by law to have this in writing about livin or dyin so this does never happen again.

Not a bad suggestion. I don't think legislation needs to be passed, but the one good thing that came from all of this is that it made people talk about living wills. So we got that working for us. Which is nice.:)

Guitar Shark
03-31-2005, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
Whoosh...:)

lol