View Full Version : Future energy crisis...things will drastically change
Roy Munson
04-15-2005, 06:00 PM
The Long Emergency (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/_/id/7203633?rnd=1113500590311&has-player=true&version=6.0.12.1040)
I don't buy into everything he has to say but I think a lot of it is possible.
Check it out and comment.
WARNING: this gives "doom and gloom" a whole new meaning.
DrMaddVibe
04-15-2005, 06:15 PM
I'm buying a hybrid then!
Imagine Phoenix without cheap air conditioning....
Imagine Hell with better scenery. It would be about the same :(
steve
04-15-2005, 09:11 PM
I might have to go to Borders and read this.
There is much skepticism to be had considering he cites ZERO sources or statistics (in this blurb at least).
The one thing that stands out as a crock is his railroad hypothesis...rail cars ultimately run on our oil economy as well.
Nitro Express
04-16-2005, 12:57 AM
It just means Jesus is coming!
DrMaddVibe
04-16-2005, 08:45 AM
WWJD
What Will Jesus Drive?
Jesus would have driven a Suburban. But only because He had 12 guys riding with Him everywhere.
That's OK though, because He would have turned water into gas, and it wouldn't have any effect on the oil supply at all.
steve
04-16-2005, 11:22 AM
I can turn a burrito into gas...does that make me Holy?
Nickdfresh
04-16-2005, 11:57 AM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
I'm buying a hybrid then!
Everybody will HAVE to drive hybrids by then, if not much sooner!
Biodiesel is a viable alternative right now. They can make the shit from recycled grease, old tires, garbage, just about anything. Or make a clean supply from renewable agricultural sources.
One logical step would be the legalization of the hemp plant. We can save discussions of the medicinal and recreational forms for other threads, but the industrial variety must be legalized NOW. Imagine getting oil for biodiesel, fiber for clothing, and pulp for paper mills all from the same field. Not to mention seeds which have more protein than soybeans.
It's a no brainer. Which is why those with no brains will continue to oppose it.
Nitro Express
04-16-2005, 01:33 PM
Biodesiel does make a lot of sense because it can be transferred in the existing oil pipelines and distribution system. It's easier to handle than hydrogen.
You are right, there are a lots of sources for biodiesel. Did you know it can be made from a type of aloe plant that grows fast and uses very little water. They could even produce bio diesel in the southwest United States.
Shit, maybe they can make it from hemp too. Hemp is a great source of useful fiber for textiles, is fun to smoke, and if you can power your car with it. Man, I think that's what Jesus would dig. Or Thomas Chong who looks a lot like Jesus in the old movies. LOL!
Nickdfresh
04-16-2005, 01:52 PM
Another thing about the hydrogen(cell fueled cars) is that nobody ever says where it's going to come from.
Big Train
04-16-2005, 02:31 PM
Doom and gloom. The truth is, if it ever gets that bad, all the restrictions on tech (hemp for example) would be removed in a hurry , I can promise you that. The $ becomes too great and obvious to resist.
Nickdfresh
04-16-2005, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Big Train
Doom and gloom. The truth is, if it ever gets that bad, all the restrictions on tech (hemp for example) would be removed in a hurry , I can promise you that. The $ becomes too great and obvious to resist.
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~af380/ostrich2.gif
There may be some hyperbole in the article, but I have heard these facts from several other sources. It is a fact that oil is getting harder and harder to find and extract in a manner that is economically feasible.
The hold up in technology has a lot to do with corporations who want to control the whole thing. The oil companies don't want to go bankrupt, but they don't know how they can "own" hydrogen or hemp or even biodiesel, since it can be made from a variety of sources.
If Chimp is claiming to be supportive of hydrogen fuel cell technology, it's only because his friends in the oil industry are working on a way to patent the process for themselves.
Nitro Express
04-17-2005, 02:24 AM
The problem with oil in the US is not the oil itself, it's refining it. Refineries is where the monopoly is.
Hydrogen can't be produced affordably until electricity becomes cheap. That means coal and nuclear power plants and right not, those aren politically easy to build.
The easiest way to produce hydrogen is to crack water into oxygen and hydrogen atoms. If you took high school chemistry you probably did this in the lab as an experiment. To split water you need an electrical current. Then the fuel cell produces electricity putting the atoms back into a water molecule.
Originally posted by Nitro Express
The easiest way to produce hydrogen is to crack water into oxygen and hydrogen atoms. If you took high school chemistry you probably did this in the lab as an experiment. To split water you need an electrical current. Then the fuel cell produces electricity putting the atoms back into a water molecule.
Probably the best approach then is to have a generator in the car which creates and stores this high current, sort of like a picture tube functions in a TV set or computer monitor (not LCD type) It probably wouldn't be too difficult to be perpetually generating this current while the car is in motion, and it possibly might even be able to store enough of a charge to start it up the next time, provided the vehicle doesn't sit for extended periods of time. You would probably have to have a cord to plug it in for a while to charge the motor the first time, or if the car had been sitting for a while.
Big Train
04-17-2005, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
http://www.chebucto.ns.ca/~af380/ostrich2.gif
There may be some hyperbole in the article, but I have heard these facts from several other sources. It is a fact that oil is getting harder and harder to find and extract in a manner that is economically feasible.
How do you figure? Energy is everywhere, it's just a matter of harnessing it. When oil is not practical anymore, we will switch to something else.
Doom and gloom always provides great opportunities, as in the stock market. You buy great companies on bad news, not when things are going great. Opportunity here is no different. Out of this scenario, there is tremendous opportunit to fill a need and make loads of money. I personally think at least 3-4 different things will be there to fufill that gap.
Call me crazy...
Big Train
04-17-2005, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by Big Train
How do you figure? Energy is everywhere, it's just a matter of harnessing it. When oil is not practical anymore, we will switch to something else.
Doom and gloom always provides great opportunities, as in the stock market. You buy great companies on bad news, not when things are going great. Opportunity here is no different. Out of this scenario, there is tremendous opportunity to fill a need and make loads of money. I personally think at least 3-4 different things will be there to fufill that gap.
Call me crazy...
Nickdfresh
04-17-2005, 10:56 AM
Originally posted by Big Train
How do you figure? Energy is everywhere, it's just a matter of harnessing it. When oil is not practical anymore, we will switch to something else.
Doom and gloom always provides great opportunities, as in the stock market. You buy great companies on bad news, not when things are going great. Opportunity here is no different. Out of this scenario, there is tremendous opportunit to fill a need and make loads of money. I personally think at least 3-4 different things will be there to fufill that gap.
Call me crazy...
One word for you my friend; "INFRASTRUCTURE!" When all of our energy architecture is designed to deliver fossil fuels, then it's going to be a difficult, even costly transition. But I hope you are right, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle of 'doom-and-gloom" and new opportunity. I really like the homemade bio-diesel thing actually.
mwsully
04-17-2005, 11:39 PM
Beyond bio-diesel, what's already happening right now are sewage treatment plants creating methane from the use of bacteria ingesting the waste. The methane powers all of their machines; totally self-powered.
What's really exciting to see are new public schools outfitted with solar panels to provide the majority of their energy needs, as well as a local water treatment plant.
What drives me nuts is that the total amount of money spent on surveying, drilling, and refining could have been spent on refining solar technology.
Well, better late than never I guess.
Nobody can own the sun. So the energy companies aren't interested. True, you can sell solar panels, storage baterries, etc. but not every week or every month. Like the timber companies up in this part of the country, their greed will be their own undoing.
Mr Grimsdale
04-18-2005, 05:32 AM
Anybody ever heard of James Lovelock?
He's the fella that came up with the Gaia theory back in the mid-60s that is so beloved by environmentalists, i.e. that the planet should be viewed as a living organism. He's also a widely respected scientist, something most environmentalists aren't.
Something those environmentalists don't like to publicise is that James Lovelock thinks nuclear energy is the only viable way to produce electricity. James Lovelock states that the dangers associated with nuclear energy are nothing like those associated with keeping the status quo, in fact they have been overstated, he also believes firmly that wind power is a joke.
Unfortunately while the popular press can't get enough of the greenhouse effect (i.e. James Lovelocks Gaia theory) they also seem quite content to publish the views of the unscientifically minded "green" lobby.
Roy Munson
04-18-2005, 12:40 PM
Cool discussion, everyone!
I just finally got to check back in to see what ideas you all have. I think this is one of the more important discussions we need to have as Americans. As the author pointed out in the beginning of his article, it's frustrating not to see any sort of sense of emergency on this issue by our government, or the press.
I'm in the trucking business and my bottom line has been GREATLY affected by the high price of diesel. Did you know that the cost to refine diesel is 1/3 of what it is to refine gasoline? Yet, diesel costs more? They're fucking me hard here.
Of course, I've implemented a fuel surcharge and I try to enforce it as much as possible. Some customers pay it while others do not. Most do. Some actually have their own FSC worked out and if you want to haul their freight you better make that number work. My margins have faded to nearly nothing even with the surcharges, though. It's tough to be in trucking right now.
The article also mentions that inflation is coming no matter what the Feds say. This is TOTALLY true. This surcharge that the trucking industry is imposing on shippers and manufacturers isn't going to vanish into thin air. It's going to be passed on to the consumer. As with anything in economics it takes a certain amount of time for significant changes to set in. Inflation is coming.
Roy Munson
04-18-2005, 12:45 PM
Oh, and Biodiesel is something that i am greatly interested in but i haven't seen it in my neck of the woods yet. I have a 10,000 gallon capacity fuel tank that I have filled every two weeks at my home terminal. The fuel company that I use does not have Biodiesel available for bulk purchase in my area as of yet. I'm going to check into it for sure.
But, I will have my drivers on the look out for Biodiesel when they are travelling around the country.
Nickdfresh
04-18-2005, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by Roy Munson
Oh, and Biodiesel is something that i am greatly interested in but i haven't seen it in my neck of the woods yet. I have a 10,000 gallon capacity fuel tank that I have filled every two weeks at my home terminal. The fuel company that I use does not have Biodiesel available for bulk purchase in my area as of yet. I'm going to check into it for sure.
But, I will have my drivers on the look out for Biodiesel when they are travelling around the country.
So make your own! You just need waste fryer oil from McDonalds.
steve
04-18-2005, 07:08 PM
From what I ahve read/heard...Biodesiel isn't seen as a permanent solution because the amount of land required to supply an entire economy through biodesiel would not be efficient...
bottom line, we'd have to use up so much land growing the food to burn we wouldn't have enough to eat - and much of this info comes from a couple friends of mine who have a Biodesiel truck...they like it, they are super liberal, it's free fuel (but if they had to actuall PURCHASE IT and not get used oil from fast food joints, they claim it would be very expensive), but from what they've read about it it's not a very efficient means for energy on a large scale.
There are major problems with Hydrogen - there was a whole Sci-American article 4 or 5 months ago...and the short version of that LONG ASS ARTICLE was basically - a lot of distribution problems with it, and it requires so much energy to make (since Hydrogen does NOT occur naturally anywhere except the Sun) that it is almost a wash...
...you have to HEAT the water to make solar power...and that takes energy unto itself.
unless you use Solar or wind power to make it...but then you might as well use that to supply the power grid.
The Sci-American article basically came to the conclusion that Hydrogen is not going to be an efficent enough source for cars...but that IT can eventually be efficient enough to use to supply the power grid - because you don't have the transport problems and you can make immobile fuel cells a lot more energy efficient.
Nickdfresh
04-18-2005, 11:16 PM
Mass transit will be the wave of the future, and Americans are going to have to get used to it! The bottom line is that eventually we are going to have to give up some our independence!
Big Train
04-19-2005, 12:32 AM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
The bottom line is that eventually we are going to have to give up some our independence!
How "Neo-Con" sounding of you Nick...The real bottom line is that money motivates and people just flat out aren't interested in mass transit. It's a great paper idea, but as anyone who has ridden a bus will tell you, they would STRONGLY prefer another form of transit, which means the opportunity is there and great.
Nickdfresh
04-19-2005, 08:51 AM
Originally posted by Big Train
How "Neo-Con" sounding of you Nick...The real bottom line is that money motivates and people just flat out aren't interested in mass transit. It's a great paper idea, but as anyone who has ridden a bus will tell you, they would STRONGLY prefer another form of transit, which means the opportunity is there and great.
Real mass-transit was systematically destroyed in this country by a conglameration of the Automotive (bus), tire, oil, and construction industries in the 1940's! Hell, just watch "Who Framed Roger Rabbit?". And money also 'motivates' people to steal, that doesn't make it right or sustatinable for the long term survival of a civilized society. And how is that "Neo-Con" sounding? Neo Con's want to perpetuate the system and live in denial until the problem becomes so great we have no choice but to take drastic measures.
It's later than you think!;)
BigBadBrian
04-19-2005, 08:57 AM
American already has mass transit. It's called the automobile.
Nickdfresh
04-19-2005, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
American already has mass transit. It's called the automobile.
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Real mass-transit was systematically destroyed....
Neo Con's want to perpetuate the system and live in denial until the problem becomes so great we have no choice but to take drastic measures.
It's later than you think!;)
Denial, denial, denial...;)
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