Schiavo autopsy finds no sign of trauma

[FORD]

Schiavo autopsy finds no sign of trauma


LARGO, Florida (AP) -- An autopsy on Terri Schiavo backed her husband's contention that she was in a persistent vegetative state, finding that she had massive and irreversible brain damage and was blind, the medical examiner's office said Wednesday. It also found no evidence that she was strangled or otherwise abused.

But what caused her collapse 15 years earlier remained a mystery. The autopsy and post-mortem investigation found no proof that she had an eating disorder, as was suspected at the time, Pinellas-Pasco Medical Examiner Jon Thogmartin said.

Autopsy results on the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman were made public Wednesday, more than two months after her death March 31 ended a right-to-die battle between her husband and parents that engulfed the courts, Congress and the White House and divided the country.

She died from dehydration, Thogmartin said. He said she did not appear to have suffered a heart attack and there was no evidence that she was given harmful drugs or other substances prior to her death.

He said that after her feeding tube was removed, she would not have been able to eat or drink if she had been given food by mouth, as her parents' requested.

"Removal of her feeding tube would have resulted in her death whether she was fed or hydrated by mouth or not," Thogmartin told reporters.

He also said she was blind, because the "vision centers of her brain were dead," and that her brain was about half of its expected size when she died 13 days following the feeding tube's removal.

Michael Schiavo said his wife never would have wanted to be kept alive in what court-appointed doctors concluded was a persistent vegetative state with no hope of recovery. The Schindlers, however, doubted she had any such end-of-life wishes and disputed that she was in a vegetative state.

The medical examiner's conclusions countered a videotape released by the Schindlers of Terri Schiavo in her hospice bed. The video showed Schiavo appearing to turn toward her mother's voice and smile, moaning and laughing. Her head moved up and down and she seemed to follow the progress of a brightly colored Mickey Mouse balloon.

They believed her condition could improve with therapy.

However, doctors said her reactions were automatic responses and not evidence of thought or consciousness, and Thogmartin's report went farther.

"The brain weighed 615 grams, roughly half of the expected weight of a human brain," he said. "This damage was irreversible, and no amount of therapy or treatment would have regenerated the massive loss of neurons."

Thogmartin said the autopsy report was based on 274 external and internal body images, and an exhaustive review of Terri Schiavo's medical records, police reports and social services agency records.

He said hospital records of her 1990 collapse showed she had a diminished potassium level in her blood. But he said that did not prove she had an eating disorder, because the emergency treatment she received at the time could have affected the potassium level.

Testimony in a 1992 civil trial indicated that she probably was suffering from an eating disorder that led to a severe chemical imbalance.

Over the years, the Schindlers had sought independent investigation of their daughter's condition and what caused it. Abuse complaints to state social workers were ruled unfounded and the Pinellas state attorney's office did not turn up evidence of abuse.

Calls seeking comments Wednesday from the Schindlers and Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, were not immediately returned.

Speaking before the report was issued, Felos, said the Schindlers continue to engage in a "smear campaign against Michael to deflect the real issues in the case, which were Terri's wishes and her medical condition."

During the seven-year legal battle, federal and state courts repeatedly rejected extraordinary attempts at intervention by Florida lawmakers, Gov. Jeb Bush, Congress and President Bush on behalf of her parents.

Supporters of the Schindlers harshly criticized the courts. Many religious groups, including the Roman Catholic Church, said the removal of sustenance violated fundamental religious tenets.

About 40 judges in six courts were involved in the case at one point or another. Six times, the U.S. Supreme Court refused to intervene. As Schiavo's life ebbed away following the final removal of her feeding tube, Congress rushed through a bill to allow the federal courts to take up the case, and President Bush signed it March 21, but federal courts refused to step in.

Copyright 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved.This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.

May the poor vegetable rest in peace, and may those who exploited her for their own political agenda ROT IN HELL!

[Warham]

FORD, the fact that you constantly refer to her as a vegetable means you don't have a shred of respect for her.

They don't know what caused her condition. It says in that article you posted that there was NO proof she had an eating disorder. It's a mystery.

[FORD]

How are you going to find proof of an eating disorder in someone who hasn't eaten food for 15 years anyway. That question was doomed to be inconclusive.

Shred of respect? Well that's a little difficult since I didn't know the woman or anything about her when she was a fully functional human being.

The ones who don't have a shred of respect are the vampires like Hannity, Randall Terrorist, and the BCE who preyed on her gullible parents to turn the poor brain dead shell of a human being into a right wing poster child for fascistization of the judicial system.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Warham
FORD, the fact that you constantly refer to her as a vegetable means you don't have a shred of respect for her.



Exactly. FORD has no common decency.

[Warham]

Didn't he and his family testify that she had an eating disorder?

Where's the proof?

Certainly not in this autopsy.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Warham
FORD, the fact that you constantly refer to her as a vegetable means you don't have a shred of respect for her.

They don't know what caused her condition. It says in that article you posted that there was NO proof she had an eating disorder. It's a mystery.


and you were such bosom buddies with her?

what was her favorite movie? favorite flavor ice cream? what did she want to be when she got out of of her vegetative state?

Oh, that's right. Nothing. Why? Because YOU DON'T GET OUT OF A VEGETATIVE STATE!!! AND YES SHE WAS A VEGETABLE!!! THAT'S WHAT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER CALLED HER TOO!!! BEAUSE THAT'S WHAT SHE WAS!!!

holy shit...

[Nickdfresh]

Shouldn't we have a member of a right to life protest group who has admittedly fucked farm animals, or been convicted of abusing children come on here and preach to us about respect for the sanctity of life?

[FORD]

Bottom line here is that all this BULLSHIT that was spewed all over the whore media, about her "talking" and "following balloons with her eyes" has now been proven conclusively FALSE.

Once again, the BCE and their propaganda peddling fascist friends like Hannity and Terrorist LIED to you, and you bought it.

Just like with Iraq.

Just like with 9-11-01.

When will you wake up?

[Warham]

Originally posted by academic punk
and you were such bosom buddies with her?

what was her favorite movie? favorite flavor ice cream? what did she want to be when she got out of of her vegetative state?

Oh, that's right. Nothing. Why? Because YOU DON'T GET OUT OF A VEGETATIVE STATE!!! AND YES SHE WAS A VEGETABLE!!! THAT'S WHAT THE MEDICAL EXAMINER CALLED HER TOO!!! BEAUSE THAT'S WHAT SHE WAS!!!

holy shit...

When you get into an accident where you lose your mental capacity, remind me to call you a vegetable.

He said she was in a vegetative state. That is NOT calling somebody a vegetable.

HOLY SHITE!

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Shouldn't we have a member of a right to life protest group who has admittedly fucked farm animals, or been convicted of abusing children come on here and preach to us about respect for the sanctity of life?

Jesse Jackson's on the way.

[Warham]

Originally posted by FORD
Bottom line here is that all this BULLSHIT that was spewed all over the whore media, about her "talking" and "following balloons with her eyes" has now been proven conclusively FALSE.

Once again, the BCE and their propaganda peddling fascist friends like Hannity and Terrorist LIED to you, and you bought it.

Just like with Iraq.

Just like with 9-11-01.

When will you wake up?

I'm still waiting for you to answer that post about the missiles that hit the Twin Towers in that other thread...

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Warham
When you get into an accident where you lose your mental capacity, remind me to call you a vegetable.

He said she was in a vegetative state. That is NOT calling somebody a vegetable.

HOLY SHITE!

Please do call me a vegatable if that should ever happen! And then pull the fuckin' plug as I've expressed IN MY LIVING WILL BECAUSE THAT IS NOT LIFE!!!!

[academic punk]

and that was some nice "love thy neightbor, tunr the other cheek" philosophy you just employed War. Notice I'm refraining from wishing ill upon you? maybe you could do with a few more sermons on the subject...

[FORD]

If I get into an accident which diminishes my mental capacity, I'll just convert to the Republican party and run for President....
http://www.mummila.net/varasto/kuvat/GWB.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Jesse Jackson's on the way.

He's done neither.:mad:

[Warham]

Originally posted by academic punk
and that was some nice "love thy neightbor, tunr the other cheek" philosophy you just employed War. Notice I'm refraining from wishing ill upon you? maybe you could do with a few more sermons on the subject...

Stop bringing religion into this, AP. Seriously. Is that all you wanna do is attack Christianity? Fine, make your own thread, OK?

Step back, get a breath of air, and remember who's calling who a vegetable in this thread.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Stop bringing religion into this, AP. Seriously. Is that all you wanna do is attack Christianity? Fine, make your own thread, OK?

Then why do some bring religion into the SCHIAVO debate?

[Warham]

Originally posted by academic punk
Please do call me a vegatable if that should ever happen! And then pull the fuckin' plug as I've expressed IN MY LIVING WILL BECAUSE THAT IS NOT LIFE!!!!

Good, then your family will pull the fucking plug!

But she never expressed her wish in a will, and her family had debated whether she actually said that for years on end! It wasn't so easy in her case.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Then why do some bring religion into the SCHIAVO debate?

I'm not bringing religion into it, Nick.

AP basically tries to bring my faith into every debate, and I'm tired of it.

I can argue the merits of my beliefs without bringing Jesus into it.

I wish he would do the same.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
If I get into an accident which diminishes my mental capacity, I'll just convert to the Republican party and run for President....



Well at least you'll finally win one. You won't with dipshit Howard in charge! :D :D :D

http://www.strangepolitics.com/images/content/15386.jpg

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Warham
I'm not bringing religion into it, Nick.

AP basically tries to bring my faith into every debate, and I'm tired of it.

I can argue the merits of my beliefs without bringing Jesus into it.

I wish he would do the same.

Jesus frightens him...as it should.

:gulp:

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Jesus frightens him...as it should.

:gulp:

If the record of the Gospels were correct, the only people "frightened" of Jesus Christ were corrupt religious right leaders who didn't want to lose the power they had over a gullible population.

Damn that sounds familiar.

[Warham]

So the pharisees were Republicans?

I don't seem to remember that being in the Gospels!

I also didn't realize that George W. Bush was a man of the cloth.

It's amazing what you learn in here.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Warham
Stop bringing religion into this, AP. Seriously. Is that all you wanna do is attack Christianity? Fine, make your own thread, OK?

Step back, get a breath of air, and remember who's calling who a vegetable in this thread.


Warham - you bring your religion into it every time! EVERY!!! And I don't at all have a problem with it in the least...if your faith informs your politics, god bless. as it should. it wouldn't be rational otherwise.

And what I was referring to was how you said "when you", not "if you" in post #9. It was a stupid, idiotic thing to say, poorly phrased, and, yeah, you owe me an apology for it. Here you are, going on and on about how much this brain-dead stranger means to you, and yet you're wishing direct ill on others.

Get your shit together.

[Warham]

I don't bring my religion into it every time, and I DARE you to post proof of any time in this conversation or anything recently where I brought Christianity or Jesus into the discussion, besides a joke with FORD. You can't do it.

And you do have a problem with it, or else you wouldn't bring it up all the goddamned time.

You owe me apologies for several things most likely, but I'm never held that against you.

You get your shit together, pal, before you ask me to get mine together.

Like I said before, WHO is calling Schiavo a vegetable? Answer that first, before you go off firing your peashooter at me. I don't know the woman, but at least I'm not comparing her to tomatoes in my fridge.

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Well at least you'll finally win one. You won't with dipshit Howard in charge! :D :D :D

http://www.strangepolitics.com/images/content/15386.jpg



:lol:

[DLR'sCock]

Anywho, the point, the point, the point, the point.......

She was in a comeplete vegetative state, she was blind, and there was no way she was ever coming back.

The husband was right, and did what he did to preserve what she wanted. I bet he really did love her.


Also, the Republican party(The Republican leaders and the Bushes who jumped on this) should be ashmaed of themselves for using Mrs. Schiavo soley for their own politcal gain. The only reasons she became a big story in the media was because of the Republicans. For shame....


Oh, and they were wrong....


In the end after the long long long drawn out digusting circus, rule of law, science, and compassion for this woman eventually were proven correct. This poor woman went to God. But, that's a good thing. Her time was done, and she allowed to move on. I do feel for her parents though, and it is understandable how they felt. It is the worst thing to ever do to lose your child, but when your time has come, then it is....


Of course, rule of law and science don't matter to many it seems.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Warham
I don't bring my religion into it every time, and I DARE you to post proof of any time in this conversation or anything recently where I brought Christianity or Jesus into the discussion, besides a joke with FORD. You can't do it.

And you do have a problem with it, or else you wouldn't bring it up all the goddamned time.

You owe me apologies for several things most likely, but I'm never held that against you.

You get your shit together, pal, before you ask me to get mine together.

Like I said before, WHO is calling Schiavo a vegetable? Answer that first, before you go off firing your peashooter at me. I don't know the woman, but at least I'm not comparing her to tomatoes in my fridge.


Drop dead, fuckbag. Painfully.

[Guitar Shark]

I think Warham and AP secretly have the hots for each other.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
I think Warham and AP secretly have the hots for each other.


Zounds!!!

[Warham]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
I think Warham and AP secretly have the hots for each other.

Grrrrrr.

;)

He's a Jesus freak and he's not even a Christian.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by Warham
Grrrrrr.

;)

He's a Jesus freak and he's not even a Christian.

So? I'm JESUS and I am not a Christian. ;)

[Nickdfresh]

Do any of you right-wing wind bags feel the least bit remorseful over how some of you slandered this gentleman MICHAEL SCHIAVO for "beating her" and implying that he may have tried to poison TERRY. I mean isn't that sort of the UNCHRISTIAN thing to do?

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
So? I'm JESUS and I am not a Christian. ;)

Thanks, Saviour!

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Do any of you right-wing wind bags feel the least bit remorseful over how some of you slandered this gentleman MICHAEL SCHIAVO for "beating her" and implying that he may have tried to poison TERRY. I mean isn't that sort of the UNCHRISTIAN thing to do?

No, I don't feel remorseful. Tough, huh?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
No, I don't feel remorseful. Tough, huh?

So it's okay to lie and slander people when ever it suits your moral vanities?

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
So it's okay to lie and slander people when ever it suits your moral vanities?

It most certainly is not! That would be called hypocrisy.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
So it's okay to lie and slander people when ever it suits your moral vanities?

The great thing about the Christian faith is we don't answer to mere mortals such as yourself. Piss off. :D

[madraoul]

I hate to be cruel, but let's continue to worry about this dead woman, Michael Jackson, the runaway bride, and the next washed up celebrity trial. Continue to sleep America. Hope you speak Spanish or Chinese.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
The great thing about the Christian faith is we don't answer to mere mortals such as yourself. Piss off. :D

No, you just get to act like a holier-than-now, judgemental phoneyass-hypocrites...:) After all, "the end justifies the means," eh?;)

What was that 'faith' again?

[Warham]

I still think he's a scumbag.

How's that for a titillating comment?

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
No, you just get to act like a holier-than-now, judgemental phoneyass-hypocrites...:)

Yes, Christians ARE hypocrites and they know it...that's why they are in church.

What's your excuse?


Hmm?

:gulp:

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yes, Christians ARE hypocrites and they know it...that's why they are in church.

What's your excuse?


Hmm?

:gulp:

Why would I want to spend my time somewhere with a bunch of hypocrites?

I get enough of that here. ;)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yes, Christians ARE hypocrites and they know it...that's why they are in church.

What's your excuse?


Hmm?

:gulp:

Well, it's not doing you much good my shaman.;)

[ODShowtime]

I just want to see a list of all the LYING conservative doctors who ran their mouths about how much life was left in that vegetable.

They should all have their licenses revoked for being pieces of shit.

[diamondD]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
It most certainly is not! That would be called hypocrisy.


No, it's called FORD's Method Of Operation. ;)

[academic punk]

Originally posted by diamondD
No, it's called FORD's Method Of Operation. ;)

It's not a lie if you believe it...

[scorpioboy33]

so anyway, let me put this to bed by saying the family, the republicans
and the pro lifers were wrong..end of story wether they choose to admit it or not

[FORD]

Unfortunately, this won't put it to bed. This is Florida, where the bigger a piece of shit you are, the better your chances for office (i.e. Cruella Harris)

Bobby Schindler Jr is the shitbag who dragged the Republican party into this, and that little piece of shit will try to milk his late sister's corpse for a congressional seat. You read it here first.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by FORD


Bobby Schindler Jr is the shitbag who dragged the Republican party into this, and that little piece of shit will try to milk his late sister's corpse for a congressional seat. You read it here first.

What???!?? You mean that lovely, ever-so-rational family was exploiting their sister, who they full well knew had no chance of the most remote recovery and wasn't drinking milk shakes and having conversations about Paris in the summer with her nurse, for political gain?

I never!

[academic punk]

BTW - Bobby Schindler did NOT "drag" anybody into this. Need proof?

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/06/17/national/a075248D61.DTL

This circus ain't over yet, folks. Just like Terri, politicians just don't want this brain-dead subject to die, either.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by academic punk
BTW - Bobby Schindler did NOT "drag" anybody into this. Need proof?

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/06/17/national/a075248D61.DTL

This circus ain't over yet, folks. Just like Terri, politicians just don't want this brain-dead subject to die, either.

Absolutely

fucking

DISGUSTING.

:mad:

[Warham]

Originally posted by FORD
Unfortunately, this won't put it to bed. This is Florida, where the bigger a piece of shit you are, the better your chances for office (i.e. Cruella Harris)

Bobby Schindler Jr is the shitbag who dragged the Republican party into this, and that little piece of shit will try to milk his late sister's corpse for a congressional seat. You read it here first.

He also dragged about fifty of your Democratic Congressman and Jesse Jackson into this as well.

[scorpioboy33]

Warham, so you still support what the family did?

[Warham]

When you say support, you mean by trying to keep the feeding tube in?

[scorpioboy33]

yah that and the fact they said they interacted with her. Also the aspirtions of abuse they cast at her husband etc.

[Warham]

I supported their decision to try to keep her alive.

There's people like me who think that her husband is a bit shady (how long did it really take him to call 911?), and then there's people like FORD who think her family (brother, sister, mother, father and all other relatives) are nothing but fecal matter who like to do this for kicks.

At this point, who cares? She's dead.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Warham
At this point, who cares? She's dead.

Apparently, Jeb Bush does. And the religious backers of his party.

[Warham]

There was insults thrown from both sides.

There were religious right backers that were trying to get into the hospital to give her water, and then there were extremist lefties who were acting like they couldn't pull that tube out fast enough.

Sad.

[FORD]

You know, when I hear a "THUD" of someone hitting the floor at an ungodly hour of the morning, the first thing I always do is to check the clock for the accurate time before I check to see what the Hell is wrong..... :rolleyes:

For fuck's sake JEB, are you that fucking desperate???

Yeah, the guy didn't know the exact time of day, so that makes him a "murderer".

None of this lets Bobby Jr off the hook though. That guy's a slimeball. His parents are merely delusional and gullible.

[DLR'sCock]

Originally posted by academic punk
BTW - Bobby Schindler did NOT "drag" anybody into this. Need proof?

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/06/17/national/a075248D61.DTL

This circus ain't over yet, folks. Just like Terri, politicians just don't want this brain-dead subject to die, either.


This is truly a low for most, but for a Bush or even a florida republican this is a normal day at work!!!

[Warham]

I agree that they should just let her go.

She's gone. They tried everything.

Save the effort for new legislation.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Warham
He also dragged about fifty of your Democratic Congressman and Jesse Jackson into this as well.

You're right. And I'm disgusted with them, too.

But it was a clever game of politics. Remember Nipple-gate? Right after that, our distinguished officials voted on a whole new set of laws for media regarding "decency". Elements are a bit bizarre in it, but it was presented in such a way that if you dared to vote against it, the other side could easily label you "a lunatic who supports Magilla Gorilla telling your kids to fuck themselves".

So, better to play it safe and not have yourself labelled as "someone who wants the death of all the handicapped".

However, there is a world of difference between being handicapped and not having any brain function whatsoever, leaving out all the legal entanglements this damn circus has been through.

Michael Schaivo has never displayed any desire for the spotlight through all this. Can the same be said for his in-laws?

[Nickdfresh]

Gov. Bush wants probe of Schiavo collapse

Friday, June 17, 2005 Posted: 12:19 PM EDT (1619 GMT)

TALLAHASSEE, Florida (AP) -- Gov. Jeb Bush asked a prosecutor Friday to investigate why Terri Schiavo collapsed 15 years ago, calling into question how long it took her husband to call 911 after he found her.

In a letter faxed to Pinellas-Pasco County State Attorney Bernie McCabe, Bush said Michael Schiavo testified in a 1992 medical malpractice trial that he found his wife collapsed at 5 a.m., and he said in a 2003 television interview that he found her about 4:30 a.m. He called 911 at 5:40 a.m.

"Between 40 and 70 minutes elapsed before the call was made, and I am aware of no explanation for the delay," Bush wrote. "In light of this new information, I urge you to take a fresh look at this case without any preconceptions as to the outcome."

Michael Schiavo's attorney, George Felos, did not immediately return a telephone call seeking comment Friday from The Associated Press. In comments in The Miami Herald, he said Terri Schiavo would not have survived if her husband had not immediately called 911.

"It's absolutely preposterous," Felos said. "If he had waited 70 minutes she would have been dead."

Terri Schiavo died March 31 from dehydration after her feeding tube was disconnected at her husband's request, despite unsuccessful efforts by her parents, Bush and others to keep her alive.

An autopsy released Wednesday concluded that she had been in a persistent vegetative state and revealed no evidence that she was strangled or otherwise abused before she collapsed.

It left unanswered the question of why Terri Schiavo's heart stopped, cutting oxygen off from her brain. The autopsy showed she suffered irreversible brain damage and her brain had shrunk to half the normal size for her age.

What a fucking waste of time and resources...Pathetic!:rolleyes:

[FORD]

Ken Schram Commentary: Where Are The Apologies?

June 17, 2005

By Ken Schram


SEATTLE - The president couldn't keep his nose out of it.

His brother, the governor, meddled without mercy.

Congress joined in with them both to exploit what became a carefully crafted political opportunity.

And Terri Schiavo's death became a circus.

So now that the autopsy report concludes that all the allegations about Michael Schiavo abusing his wife were nothing but vicious rumors; now that it shows that she was blind; was incapable of speaking; could not comprehend sounds, and that there was not even the slimmest hope of her ever recovering, I've not heard one apology from anyone of any note.

No apologies to the federal judges who were castigated for supporting the state judges who approved the removal of her feeding tube.

No: "I'm sorry. I was wrong" from the conservative talk show radio hosts who spread gossip as if it were gospel.

No small contrition from any of the right-wing fanatics who concocted all the conspiracies.

Instead, we get Jeb "When-Do-I-Get-To-Be-President" Bush pushing for an investigation into how long it took Terri Schiavo's husband to call 911 when she collapsed back in 1990.

It appears pettiness is a genetic trait in that family.

Easily spread to those who philosophically come in contact with them.

Want to share your thoughts with Ken Schram? You can e-mail him at kenschram@komo4news.com

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by FORD
we get Jeb "When-Do-I-Get-To-Be-President" Bush pushing for an investigation into how long it took Terri Schiavo's husband to call 911 when she collapsed back in 1990.

It appears pettiness is a genetic trait in that family.

I can't believe it, but I'm actually in shock. :eek: gw&friends can still surprise me!

[academic punk]

Interesting...

Jeb Bush Battles 'The NY Times' Over Schiavo Case

By E&P Staff

Published: June 18, 2005 4:00 PM ET

NEW YORK A pitched battle has broken out between Gov. Jeb Bush and The New York Times--on the newspaper's editorial page.

Two days ago, the Times criticized the governor in an editorial called "Autopsy on the Schiavo Tragedy." While not naming Bush, it denounced "opportunistic politicians" who exploited the case. Today, the Times published a hard-hitting, critical letter from Jeb Bush--and another editorial attacking him.

Bush, in his letter, said that the Times' "grotesque and chilling disrespect for the sanctity of life has never been more apparent than in your June 16 editorial...Terri Schiavo was a deeply loved daughter, wife, sister and friend. The fact that her brain was atrophied or that she was blind or could not have been rehabilitated doesn't change that fact.

"While many medical professionals said she was in a persistent vegetative state, still other highly respected neurologists said there was a chance that she was not.

"In cases where patients do not have an expressed written directive regarding end-of-life decisions and where the patient's guardian has a conflict of interest, it only makes sense to err on the side of life....Despite claims of cynicism and being 'agenda-driven,' we will continue to strive to protect our most vulnerable citizens. All innocent human life is precious, and government has a duty to protect the weak, the disabled and the vulnerable."

While not directly responding to the letter, the Times published another editorial, which opened with:

"After Terri Schiavo was finally allowed to rest in peace on March 31, we hoped she would also have been granted in death what she surely would have wanted - an end to the bitterness that divided her family and made her private suffering a public spectacle....

"And so it was heartbreaking yesterday to see Gov. Jeb Bush of Florida thrust himself back into this tragedy just two days after the results of Ms. Schiavo's autopsy showed that her condition had been beyond hope and beyond therapy, that she most likely had been in a persistent vegetative state and that her relatives' allegations that she had been abused by her husband were false.

"For most of the nation, that news provided closure on a wrenching episode. But not for Mr. Bush, who asked a state prosecutor to investigate Michael Schiavo, Ms. Schiavo's husband. Mr. Bush said he wanted to clear up discrepancies in Mr. Schiavo's statements over the last 15 years about the time that elapsed between his finding his wife on the floor and his 911 call...

"Of all the politicians who tragically failed to understand and respect the sanctity and privacy of family life in this case, only Mr. Bush seems determined to save face by disturbing the family's peace further and berating those who had been saying all along that he was going down a terrible road."

[academic punk]

FORD -

Could you do a search and find the exact words that W. used when he made that phone call to the pro-lifers who were in front of the White House back in late January? If I'm not mistaken, this bit of Jeb...

"we will continue to strive to protect our most vulnerable citizens. All innocent human life is precious, and government has a duty to protect the weak, the disabled and the vulnerable."

are the same exact words that his brother used back then.

But that'd be impossible. The same exact words...five months later...from two different people...naaaaaaawwwwww....

[Nickdfresh]

When I think of TERRI SCHIAVO, I keep thinking ghoulish things like "political football" and "human shield." I hope JEB enjoys drop kicking her to please the base some more!

BTW, hows those child welfare programs going in FLORIDA? Are kids still disappearing from foster homes (http://www.liftingtheveil.org/lostintr.htm)?

CUNT!

[FORD]

Originally posted by academic punk
FORD -

Could you do a search and find the exact words that W. used when he made that phone call to the pro-lifers who were in front of the White House back in late January? If I'm not mistaken, this bit of Jeb...

"we will continue to strive to protect our most vulnerable citizens. All innocent human life is precious, and government has a duty to protect the weak, the disabled and the vulnerable."

are the same exact words that his brother used back then.

But that'd be impossible. The same exact words...five months later...from two different people...naaaaaaawwwwww....

It's pretty damn close, alright.....

Here's Dumbass, as quoted in the January 25, 2005 edition of the WashingMoonie Times

"The strong have a duty to protect the weak," Mr. Bush said yesterday. "In a culture that does not protect the most dependent, the handicapped, the elderly, the unloved or simply inconvenient become increasingly vulnerable."

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by academic punk
If I'm not mistaken, this bit of Jeb...

"we will continue to strive to protect our most vulnerable citizens. All innocent human life is precious, and government has a duty to protect the weak, the disabled and the vulnerable."

are the same exact words that his brother used back then.


Apparently, in Jeb's world, the "weak, the disabled and the vulnerable" includes only brain-dead vegetables, not the millions and millions of brain-functioning Americans that cannot get quality health care.

[FORD]

It's the standard Republican definition of "pro-life".

Fetuses and vegetables are protected, but everyone in between is on their own.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by FORD
It's the standard Republican definition of "pro-life".

Fetuses and vegetables are protected, but everyone in between is on their own.

Was W ever REALLY taken to task to explain how he's o pro-life, but signed into law the rule that Texas hospitals can at their discretion discontinue a patients care regardless of the wishes of thier family?

I'd looooove to hear this one.

[FORD]

Oh that's right..... I should have said "vegetables with money"

[Guitar Shark]

He was taken to task by Jon Stewart on a brilliant episode of the Daily Show, but it was virtually ignored by the mainstream media. Probably because the majority of Americans are too stupid to comprehend the hypocrisy.

[academic punk]

Look at me everybody! I'm an asparagus!

[FORD]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
He was taken to task by Jon Stewart on a brilliant episode of the Daily Show, but it was virtually ignored by the mainstream media. Probably because the majority of Americans are too stupid to comprehend the hypocrisy.

Well, if you really believe that 50.8% of the voters, which is actually about 24% of those eligible to vote constitutes a "majority".

And that's not accounting for electro-fraud. Or for those who have woken up since November.

I'm guessing the real core Busheep percentage at this point is 20% or less.

[Guitar Shark]

I'm not talking about Republicans FORD, or the people who voted for Bush. I'm talking about the fact that the media has become nothing but soundbytes for dummies. The average American does not look beyond the surface for the issues affecting their lives. This is true across party lines.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
I'm not talking about Republicans FORD, or the people who voted for Bush. I'm talking about the fact that the media has become nothing but soundbytes for dummies. The average American does not look beyond the surface for the issues affecting their lives. This is true across party lines.

This post is far too long. Please whittle it down to eight words or less. And with some snappy phrasing, like "it's hard times for lazy asses", or "it's easy to ignore the details when you're in your E-Z chair".

And pass the cheez doodles.

[FORD]

No arguments about the media, counselor. They are useless. The local mediawhores are some of the worst. Apparently KOMO has news from 4-7 now, and aside from the occasional Ken Schram rant, it's three solid hours of useless crap. TV news used to be habitual viewing. Now I'd just as easily tune into the Simpsons or Seinfeld reruns that are on at the same time.

[DrMaddVibe]

Sunday, June 19, 2005 8:46 p.m. EDT

Doctor: Schiavo Autopsy Conclusions Flawed

Dr. William Hammesfahr, nominated for a Nobel Prize for his work in medicine, has been recognized by agents for Medicare, the federal government, and others for new approaches to helping the brain injured.

Dr. Hammesfahr has been credited with helping patients with chronic brain injuries from many causes actually leave long-term disability and return to work.

Dr. Hammesfahr was identified as the first physician to restore deficits caused by stroke.

Dr. Hammesfahr has released the following statement in response to the autopsy report on Terri Schindler Schiavo:

We have seen a lot on the autopsy of Terri Schindler Schiavo in recent days, that I feel needs to be addressed. To ignore these comments will allow future 'Terri Schiavo's' to die needlessly after the wishes of clinicians and family are ignored.

Considering that there were so many physicians and therapists who were willing to step forward to treat Terri Schiavo, from university based practitioners to those in private practice, it clearly shows that the mainstream medical community across the board, those involved in treating patients, knew that they could help Terri.

The record must be set straight. As we noted in the press, there was no heart attack, or evident reason for this to have happened (and certainly not of Terri's making).

Unlike the constant drumbeat from the husband, his attorneys, and his doctors, the brain tissue was not dissolved, with a head of just spinal fluid. In fact, large areas were "relatively preserved."

The purpose of the therapies offered by so many, from major universities, brain injury centers, and from private practice physicians, is to improve and restore quality of life, and function, which the mainstream medical community clearly tried to get to her.

I have had a chance to look at Dr. Nelson's analysis of the brain tissue, and essentially, as a clinician, these are my thoughts.

The autopsy results confirmed my opinion and Dr. Maxfield's opinions, that the frontal areas of the brains, the areas that deal with awareness and cognition were relatively intact. To use Dr. Nelson's words, "relatively preserved." In fact, the relay areas from the frontal and front temporal regions of the brain, to the spinal cord and the brain stem, by way of the basal ganglia, were preserved, thus the evident responses which she was able to express to her family and to the clinicians seeing her or viewing her videotape. The Spect scan confirmed these areas were functional and not scar tissue, and that was apparently also confirmed on Dr. Nelson's review of the slides. Dr. Maxfield's estimates of retained brain weight were apparently accurate, although there may have been some loss of brain weight due to the last two weeks of dehydration.

Dr. Maxfield and myself both emphasized that she was a woman trapped in her body, similar to a child with cerebral palsy, and that was borne out by the autopsy, showing greater injury in the motor and visual centers of the brain. Obviously, the pathologists comments that she could not see were not borne out by reality, and thus his assessment must represent sampling error. The videotapes clearly showed her seeing, and even Dr. Cranford, for the husband, commented to her that, when she could see the balloon, she could follow it with her eyes as per his request.

That she could not swallow was obviously not borne out by the reality that she was swallowing her saliva, about 1.5 liters per day of liquid, and the clinical swallowing tests done by Dr. Young and Dr. Carpenter. Thus, there appears to be some limitations to the clinical accuracy of an autopsy in evaluating function.

With respect to the issue of trauma, that certainly does not appear to be answered adequately. Some of the types of trauma that are suspected were not adequately evaluated in this assessment. Interestingly, both myself and at least one neurologist for the husband testified to the presence of neck injuries. The issue of a forensic evaluation for trauma, is highly specialized. Hence the wish of the family to have observers which was refused by the examiner.

Ultimately, based on the clinical evidence and the autopsy results, an aware woman was killed.

s/Dr. W. Hammesfahr

[Dr. Hammesfahr was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine and Physiology in 1999. The nomination was for work started in 1994. In 2000, this work resulted in approval for the first patent in history granted for the treatment of neurological diseases including coma, stroke, brain injury, cerebral palsy, hypoxic injuries and other neurovascular disorders with medications that restore blood flow to the brain. It was extended to treat successfully disabilities including ADD, ADHD, dyslexia, Tourette's and autism as well as behaviorally and emotionally disturbed children, seizures and severe migraines.]

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Sunday, June 19, 2005 8:46 p.m. EDT

Doctor: Schiavo Autopsy Conclusions Flawed

Dr. William Hammesfahr, nominated for a Nobel Prize for his work in medicine, has been recognized by agents for Medicare, the federal government, and others for new approaches to helping the brain injured.


Uh, no. (http://mediamatters.org/items/200503220009)

[FORD]

Is there no end to the LIES coming from these fascist fucknuts?

[academic punk]

Originally posted by FORD
Is there no end to the LIES coming from these fascist fucknuts?


Hope not! Without their lies, they'd have to resort to the truth. And we all know what a chilly barren landscape that is...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
He was taken to task by Jon Stewart on a brilliant episode of the Daily Show, but it was virtually ignored by the mainstream media. Probably because the majority of Americans are too stupid to comprehend the hypocrisy.

There's so much BS going around in circles sometimes it's hard for even intelligent, mindful people to understand sometimes.

Like that silly article from that doctor that Dr. MV posted. Most people will read that and again continue to be ignorant of the true facts of this issue.

I'ts just lies upon lies upon lies these days. Just all lies.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Apparently, in Jeb's world, the "weak, the disabled and the vulnerable" includes only brain-dead vegetables, not the millions and millions of brain-functioning Americans that cannot get quality health care.

Or the 500 children "lost" in FLORIDA's Foster Care system...

[Nickdfresh]

Dubious doctor touted as Nobel Prize nominee by Hannity, Scarborough

Fox News host Sean Hannity and MSNBC host Joe Scarborough both promoted Dr. William Hammesfahr's false claim that he is a Nobel Prize nominee.
...

But the fact that Bilirakis is not qualified to nominate Nobel Prize winners did not stop Scarborough or Hannity from referring to Hammesfahr as a Nobel Prize nominee. Hannity did so a total of eight times during a single hour-long program; Scarborough made the reference four times. Additionally, Scarborough erroneously claimed that Hammesfahr has "treated" Schiavo; in fact, Hammesfahr has merely examined her as one of five doctors approved by a Florida court in 2001 to do so. He was one of two doctors selected by Schiavo's parents; two others were selected by Schiavo's husband, Michael Schiavo, and the fifth was chosen by the court....

[academic punk]

It was reported today that Terri's ashes have been laid to rest at the Schiavo cemtary plot.

Oh, and apparently Bobby is making the rounds (and, perhaps, money) speaking at pro-life conventions (and wouldn't that be one whopping good-time of a convention? Pass that joint this way, hoss!)

[academic punk]

Now this is interesting...

http://www.suntimes.com/output/news/21ama.html

The politicization of Terri Schiavo prompted the American Medical Association on Tuesday to adopt policy opposing any legislation that presumes patients would want life-sustaining treatment unless it is clear that they would not.

The Florida woman died in March after her feeding tube was disconnected following a long, highly publicized court battle between her husband and parents over whether she would have wanted to be kept alive.

Numerous politicians and judges weighed in on a case that doctors at the AMA annual meeting said should have remained between the patient, her doctors and her family.

Dr. Michael Williams, a Johns Hopkins Hospital neurologist who helped sponsor the measure, said several states are considering or have passed laws that presume patients would want life-sustaining treatment.

"While the (Schiavo) circumstances were heart-wrenching and compelling, they're so rare that they're not a good basis to revise existing law," Williams said. "I wish there had not been politics involved in it and I hope there won't be in the future should similar cases arise."

Tuesday's action at the annual meeting of the nation's largest doctors group also reaffirms existing AMA policy that says it is ethical in some cases to discontinue life-sustaining treatment if it is in the patient's best interests.

Existing AMA policy did not help Schiavo and "did not help the courts and Congress keep their noses out" of doctor-patient issues, Dr. Arvind Goyal of Rolling Meadows told AMA delegates Tuesday.

Goyal also criticized Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist for questioning Schiavo's diagnosis without having examined her. Frist, a doctor, violated AMA ethics in doing so, Goyal said.

Schiavo's parents disputed her husband's claim that she had no chance of recovering from massive brain damage and that she would not have wanted to be kept alive artificially. Autopsy results released earlier this month showed that her brain damage was irreversible.

AMA Trustee Dr. John Armstrong said the case underscores the importance of patients making their end-of-life wishes known while they're still healthy, through living wills or advanced directives.

Also Tuesday, the AMA acted on an issue that many doctors are wary of-- "pay-for-performance" programs that financially reward physicians for achieving various standards of job performance.

Whether designed by health insurers, Medicare officials or legislators, pay-for-performance programs should aim to improve treatment quality and patient safety, not to save money, according to the policy adopted by AMA delegates.

The programs also should follow the AMA's own framework, which says doctors must be involved in designing and evaluating such programs. It also says doctors should be able to choose not to be evaluated and not face penalties if they don't want to participate.

"There is potential concern when there is another intent behind pay-for-performance programs" besides improving the quality of patient care, Armstrong said.

In other action Tuesday, the AMA:


refused to back a ban on prescription drug ads, despite rising concerns about the dangers of certain heavily marketed painkillers and antidepressants.
Some doctors have complained that "Ask your doctor about ..." ads lead patients to seek risky drugs they don't need and interfere with the doctor-patient relationship.

But others said a ban would violate drug makers' free-speech rights and argued that ads have helped increase awareness of certain ailments and reduced the stigma of mental illness and other disorders.


adopted a report declaring that antidepressants including Prozac and related drugs have benefits and should remain available to youngsters who need them. The government last year required the drugs' labels to carry warnings about their potential to increase suicidal impulses in youngsters who take them. But the AMA report says the drugs can reduce risks for suicide attempts and completed suicides.