Health care in Iraq worse now than under Saddam!

[kentuckyklira]

The US goons (oops that´s "forces") and their Iraqi accomplices can´t even take care of the few Iraqi doctors that haven´t moved somewhere else!

Way to go!

Way to "liberate" a country!

[DrMaddVibe]

Where's the pictures nazi?

[BigBadBrian]

No link...no story

Close it up, FORD

;)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
No link...no story

Close it up, FORD

;)

I concur:cool:

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Where's the pictures nazi? Shall I watch the news on German TV with a video camera on my lap from now on?

Just for your convenience!

No, I think not!

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
No link...no story

Close it up, FORD

;) The news on German TV!

You´re free to prove me wrong!

[FORD]

Iraq health care 'in deep crisis'
Iraq's health system is in a far worse condition than before the war, a British medical charity says.

Doctors from the group Medact conducted surveys with international aid groups and Iraqi health workers in September.

They exposed poor sanitation in many hospitals, shortages of drugs and qualified staff and huge gaps in services for mothers and children.

Medact, which monitors healthcare in post-conflict areas, called for an inquiry into the situation.

It has also challenged the British government to set up a commission to establish the level of civilian casualties in Iraq.

Damaged hospitals

"The war is a continuing public health disaster that was predictable - and should have been preventable," the group says.

"Excess deaths and injuries and high levels of illness are the direct and indirect results of ongoing conflict."

Groups like the medical charity Merlin and the UN aid organisation Unicef were among those whose staff provided information.

They paint a picture of a health service struggling to cope and, because of the continuing violence, a population often afraid to leave their homes to seek medical help.


Twelve percent of Iraq's hospitals were damaged during the war and the country's two main public health laboratories were also destroyed, the report says.

However, Iraq's deputy prime minister Barham Saleh told reporters in London that the health situation in Iraq was "not good" but it was improving not deteriorating.

He said "the level of devastation that Saddam Hussein has left us with was unimaginable" and added that health budgets were increasing.

UK foreign secretary Jack Straw pointed out that since the conflict 95% of children under five had been immunised, some 150 primary health care centres were planned and a string of hospitals in the south of the country had been renovated.

He said the great mistake the report made was blaming any problems with healthcare on the Iraqi government and health ministry rather than terrorists and insurgents.

"In those many areas of Iraq where there are no terrorists and no insurgents there is no problem whatsoever with the delivery of health care."

Medact accuses the UK and US governments and Iraqi authorities of denying "the true extent of harm" to Iraq's civilians.

It also says health relief and reconstruction efforts have been bungled through mismanagement and corruption.

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/4054105.stm

[DrMaddVibe]

What's the matter Ford...didn't like what I said so you deleted it?

What a puss!

[FORD]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
What's the matter Ford...didn't like what I said so you deleted it?

What a puss!

I removed ALL of the idiotic thread-jacking, since I found the actual story.

Don't worry, you weren't the primary target ;)

[BigBadBrian]

your post is crap, FORD....I tend to put more faith in this:

15 December 2003

Iraqi Healthcare At Pre-War Capabilities, December 15, 2003

(Bush discusses improvements with interim health minister)

President Bush met with the Iraqi Interim Minister of Health, Dr. Khudair Abbas, and six other Iraqi physicians at the White House December 15 to discuss improvements in Iraq's health services since the fall of the Ba'athist regime.

In remarks with Dr. Abbas and Iraqi Ambassador Rend al-Rahim after the meeting, Bush told reporters in Washington that the Iraqi doctors were anxious to work with American counterparts to enhance medical education and integrate advanced technologies into Iraqi healthcare.

"We are making progress together in improving the lives of your citizens with better health care; immunization rates are up; people are getting health care," Bush said.

The White House released a fact sheet December 15, regarding improvements in Iraqi healthcare. It states that with 240 hospitals and more than 1,200 primary health clinics in operation, the country has returned to its pre-war capabilities.

The fact sheet said the Iraqi Ministry of Health now has 100,000 healthcare professionals and staff throughout the country, and has received grants to immunize its 4.2 million children under the age of five against preventable diseases such as polio, tetanus, diphtheria, measles, and tuberculosis.

"I think the budget of Saddam Hussein's government for health was, like, $16 million -- less than a dollar per person," Bush said. According to the fact sheet, Iraq's 2004 budget for health care is $950 million.

Following is the text of the fact sheet about Iraq's new healthcare system:
(begin fact sheet)

THE WHITE HOUSE
Office of the Press Secretary
December 15, 2003

FACTS ABOUT THE NEW IRAQI HEALTHCARE SYSTEM

Dr. Khudair Abbas, the Iraqi Interim Minister of Health, and six other physicians from Iraq, met with President Bush today to discuss recent improvements in the Iraqi healthcare system. The doctors described to the President the dedicated efforts of Iraqi healthcare professionals, and the invaluable support the Iraqi medical system is receiving from the international community. Improvements in Iraq's health services include:

-- The entire country is at pre-war capabilities for providing health care -- 240 Iraqi hospitals and more than 1,200 primary health clinics are operating, offering basic healthcare services for the Iraqi people.

-- Doctors' salaries have increased to between $120 a month and $180 a month, in comparison to $20 a month before the war. There are roughly 22,000 physicians affiliated with the Ministry of Health, and about 35,000 nurses and nursing assistants.

-- The Ministry has 100,000 healthcare professionals and staff. More than 80 percent are women.

-- Iraq's 2004 budget for health care is $950 million. Saddam Hussein's regime provided only $16 million for the Ministry of Health in 2002, a 90 percent reduction from a decade earlier.

-- Health care for some ethnic groups was almost nonexistent under Saddam's regime. The Ministry of Health is working to ensure that health care is available to all Iraqis regardless of ethnicity, geographic origin, gender, or religious affiliation.

-- More than 30 million doses of children's vaccinations have been procured and distributed, and the Ministry has received grants to immunize the country's 4.2 million children under the age of five against preventable diseases such as polio, tetanus, diphtheria, measles, and tuberculosis.

-- Routine vaccinations are now available to newborns, children, and mothers every day at Ministry of Health facilities across the country and are promoted nationally through immunization days on the 22nd of each month.

-- Since May 24, the Ministry of Health has delivered more than 25,000 tons of pharmaceuticals and supplies to healthcare facilities across Iraq.

-- The Ministry is responsible for 29,000 hospital beds.

-- Since the liberation of Iraq, the country has not faced a major public health crisis.

-- Three Facility Protective Services classes have trained over 1,300 personnel to protect health facilities.

-- The Ministry of Health has completed a $1.7 million headquarters refurbishment project.

-- In addition to the United States, Japan, Egypt, Korea, Turkey, Spain, Italy, Saudi Arabia, and India are providing assistance to the Ministry of Health. This assistance includes training for doctors and nurses, construction of hospitals, and donation of ambulances.


Link (http://www.usembassy.it/file2003_12/alia/A3121502.htm)

[geraldcollier]

hmm

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
your post is crap, FORD....I tend to put more faith in this:

Link (http://www.usembassy.it/file2003_12/alia/A3121502.htm)

You put more faith in a 2003 press release from the White House than you do from a 2004 BBC story reporting on the findings of a British medical CHARITY???

Forgive me if I totally discount your opinions from this point forward BBB...

[ODShowtime]

BBB, your article is almost two years old, and then this:


Originally posted by BigBadBrian

The White House released a fact sheet December 15, regarding improvements in Iraqi healthcare.

yeah, real credible. :rolleyes:

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
You put more faith in a 2003 press release from the White House than you do from a 2004 BBC story reporting on the findings of a British medical CHARITY???

Forgive me if I totally discount your opinions from this point forward BBB... It took you this long!!!!!!!!

:eek: :confused: :eek: :confused: :eek:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
...

Forgive me if I totally discount your opinions from this point forward BBB...

You mean you haven't been doing so like everybody else?;)

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
You put more faith in a 2003 press release from the White House than you do from a 2004 BBC story reporting on the findings of a British medical CHARITY???



Considering the fact that I've done probably alot more reading on the actual military campaign itself in Iraq and the damage it caused and how fast our troops repaired the infrastructure than you have...yes.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Considering the fact that I've done probably alot more reading on the actual military campaign itself in Iraq and the damage it caused and how fast our troops repaired the infrastructure than you have...yes.

Now there's some good logic... :rolleyes:

"Look, I've been reading A LOT and they built back what their bombs destroyed SUPER FAST like! So OBVIOUSLY, that means that a White House press release is WAAY more reliable than some stupid charity's report. Neener neener."

[LoungeMachine]

Poor Brie,

just not having a very good day, are we?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark


Forgive me if I totally discount your opinions from this point forward BBB...





Welcome to the Club

You're member # 48,156 of the BigBadBrie is full of SHIT Club:D


:cool:

[Guitar Shark]

Brian's cred has taken a beating the last few days. ;)

Brian and I used to spar a LOT in the old days, but we've been getting along lately, mainly because I learned that most of the time he posts stupid shit just to get a rise out of people.

Very recently, however, I've begun to wonder if he actually believes the stupid shit he posts.

:confused:

[Dr. Love]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Very recently, however, I've begun to wonder if he actually believes the stupid shit he posts.

:confused:


I doubt he does, sometimes. More engineered for a response, like the Wichser.

[Big Train]

If the thought police running this will allow me to REPOST my thoughts here...

We could forget to mention here that the rape rooms and torture chambers Saddam used in Iraq (for the love of God libs, please SPARE me your gitmo references here) are now CLOSED. Which saves a lot of money in healthcare. It's called Preventive Care, which a German would know nothing about, as it requires ACTION for it to happen.

Not whining about other countries.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train



We could forget to mention here that the rape rooms and torture chambers Saddam used in Iraq (for the love of God libs, please SPARE me your gitmo references here) are now CLOSED.


Closed?

Hardly.


They're just open Under New Management

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Big Train
If the thought police running this will allow me to REPOST my thoughts here...

We could forget to mention here that the rape rooms and torture chambers Saddam used in Iraq (for the love of God libs, please SPARE me your gitmo references here) are now CLOSED. Which saves a lot of money in healthcare. It's called Preventive Care, which a German would know nothing about, as it requires ACTION for it to happen.

Not whining about other countries. We´re pretty good at ACTION wherever we believe it´s justified,like:

Afghanistan

Kosovo

Dafour

for example.

P.S. I still can´t recall a single useful response to questions like, if you´re so concerned with evil tyrants oppressing their people, especially using rape and the likes to do it, then why is a guy like Robert Mugabe still free to do whatever he likes to, from the right-wingers around the internet!

[Big Train]

Of course you can't get a useful response to an illogical question, numbnuts. There's your lib chickenhawk argument: If there is injustice elsewhere, why not respond to it?

The truth, if you need it spelled out, is limited resources. Picking and choosing fights is the way it goes. Saddam fucked with the UN for 12 years and if you wanted to pussyfoot around with the guy forever, so be it. We did not.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by Big Train
(for the love of God libs, please SPARE me your gitmo references here)

Read closer Lounge...:)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train
Read closer Lounge...:)



I WAS REFERING TO ABU GRAHIB, NOT GITMO, BT



:cool:

[LoungeMachine]

June 22, 2005
Abu Ghraib, Rewarded

New York Times, Editorial, A18
June 22, 2005

It is nice that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and his team feel as if they have achieved closure on their prisoner abuse issues and are ready to move on. The problem is, they are still in deep denial. The Bush administration has not only refused to face the problem squarely, but it is also enabling a pervasive lack of accountability.

The most recent evidence of this sad state of affairs came this week in an article in The Times by Eric Schmitt and Thom Shanker, who reported that the Pentagon believes the Abu Ghraib scandal has receded enough in the public's mind that Mr. Rumsfeld is considering a promotion for Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez, who was commander of American forces in Iraq at the time of the disaster.

We can see why General Sanchez would expect a promotion; Mr. Bush has rewarded the people who drafted the policies that led to the illegal detention, abuse, humiliation and, ultimately, torture and even killing of prisoners at the hands of American military forces. A couple were nominated to the federal appeals court. One became attorney general. Mr. Rumsfeld still has his job.

And we feel General Sanchez's pain. As the Army's own investigation showed, he lacked the experience to command the forces in Iraq. Once given that job, he labored under Mr. Rumsfeld's obsession for waging war with too few troops inadequately equipped. For months, Mr. Bush and Mr. Rumsfeld were pretending the war was over, while General Sanchez faced a mushrooming insurgency. He ordered his soldiers to start getting tough with prisoners to get intelligence.

General Sanchez relied on established practice in Mr. Bush's military. He set aside American notions of decency and the Geneva Conventions, authorizing harsh interrogations -- including forcing prisoners into painful positions for long periods, isolating them, depriving them of sleep and using guard dogs to, as he put it, ''exploit Arab fears.'' These practices would have been controversial for captives with information that would save Americans' lives. But the vast majority of Abu Ghraib inmates knew nothing.

General Sanchez was exonerated by the last in a series of investigations meant to keep the heat off top generals and civilian policy makers. But his own words at the Texas A&M University commencement were damning. When conditions are at their worst, General Sanchez said, ''That is when a leader must step forward and lead -- our ethics mandate it and our subordinates expect it.''

General Sanchez failed to do that. He should not be the only senior person to pay the price for failure, but neither should he be the latest to be rewarded for it.

[LoungeMachine]

Where were the doctors at Abu Ghraib?
Maura Lerner, Star Tribune


June 20, 2005

When Dr. Steven Miles first saw the news photos of American guards abusing Iraqi prisoners last year, he couldn't help wondering one thing:

Where were the doctors?

Surely, he thought, there was a medical staff at Abu Ghraib prison in Baghdad. Somebody must have seen the bruises and treated the injuries that the prisoners had suffered.

So why didn't they speak up?

It's a question that has haunted Miles, 55, a human rights activist and University of Minnesota physician, ever since.

Now, after more than a year of research, he's writing a book on the hidden role of U.S. military medicine in the prisoner abuses that shocked the world.

Miles argues that health professionals turned a blind eye, or worse, to the torture and deaths of some of their patients. "These health professionals could have protested," he said. Instead, "the medical system here became one of the professional arms of a torturing society."

His allegations -- first published in a medical journal last summer -- have infuriated the Pentagon. "We have no evidence that military medical personnel collaborated with interrogators or guards accused or suspected of detainee abuse, or condoned abusive behavior," said James Turner, a spokesman for the Defense Department in Washington.

Miles, though, says the evidence tells another story.

Last month, he opened a lecture to hospital employees in St. Paul with a notorious photo: the picture of two U.S. guards, a man and woman, grinning behind a pile of naked men at Abu Ghraib prison. Miles let the image sink in.

"The question for today is, how does the image of this picture change when we know that there's a health professional in this room?" he asked.

According to witness reports, Miles said, a "nurse medic" was called into the room to examine a prisoner who was having trouble breathing. The medic determined he was having an anxiety attack, and "simply walked off and made no further note of it," Miles said.

Medical workers from other nations have been complicitous in torture before, he said, but this is something new for the United States. "We have suffered enormous damage from this," Miles told a spellbound audience at Regions Hospital. "And the damage goes far beyond Iraq."

Troubling disclosure

Dr. Todd Morris, a Regions surgeon who served in Iraq with the Navy Reserve, admitted he was troubled by the disclosures. "What they did was wrong, and what they did is absolutely crushing to what we [in the military] are trying to do," he said later. "The vast, vast majority of people who are in Iraq in the military are really trying to make the world a better place."

He said military doctors are supposed to treat enemy patients the same as "friendlies," but things can become muddied in this kind of war.

More than a year ago, Miles began hunting for information on the Abu Ghraib scandal on the Internet. He found thousands of government documents on the scandal -- many of them from the military's own investigations -- that had been posted on websites by the Department of Defense and watchdog groups such as the American Civil Liberties Union.

He started poring through them, one by one, looking for the medical side of the story.

His first article, in the British medical journal Lancet in August, created something of an international sensation. He reported that doctors had falsified the death certificates of some of the detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan. He wrote that they had written off suspicious deaths as natural ones -- in one case, attributing a man's death to a heart attack, even though he died in a coma with skull fractures and burns on his feet. Another death certificate said that a prisoner had died of "natural causes" in his sleep -- although the Pentagon later found that he was beaten to death. Beyond that, Miles wrote, evidence showed that doctors had helped design the "psychologically and physically coercive" interrogation techniques that violated the Geneva Conventions.

And he urged an inquiry into the behavior of medical personnel at the detention centers.

Making news

Miles was on vacation in Iceland when his Lancet study hit the news, but he couldn't escape the media fallout. The story was front-page news in Reykjavik. Calls started pouring into his hotel from CNN, the BBC and other news organizations.

The Pentagon responded with an indignant letter to the medical journal, accusing Miles of denigrating "the honorable, and sometimes heroic, efforts of the military medical system ..." The letter, signed by Lt. Gen. Kevin Kiley, the Army's surgeon general, disputed the allegation that death certificates had been altered to cover up homicides and said the investigations were continuing.

Miles, unruffled, stood by all his allegations, and proceeded to add more.

Miles, who ran unsuccessfully for the U.S. Senate as a Democrat in 2000, has devoted much of his career to championing social causes. He once spent months working with torture victims in southeast Asia in the 1970s as medical director of the American Refugee Committee, and he still volunteers at the Center for Victims of Torture in Minneapolis.

So the idea of American involvement in torture holds a special horror for Miles, who also teaches medical ethics. "Torture is prohibited for all, but health professionals serve in a special kind of role," he said. They're in a unique position, he insists, to detect evidence of torture and to do something about it.

"Torture, when it occurs in prisons, is never the result of a few bad apples," he said. It can't thrive, he said, without other people's silence.

[Big Train]

Same difference

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train
Same difference


WTF??????????????????????????????

Read Closer Lounge


GITMO = CUBA

ABU GRAIB = IRAQ

SAME DIFFERNCE??????

Why don't YOU "read closer":rolleyes:

same difference:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Brian's cred has taken a beating the last few days. ;)

Brian and I used to spar a LOT in the old days, but we've been getting along lately, mainly because I learned that most of the time he posts stupid shit just to get a rise out of people.

Very recently, however, I've begun to wonder if he actually believes the stupid shit he posts.

:confused:

:)

[Big Train]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
WTF??????????????????????????????

Read Closer Lounge


GITMO = CUBA

ABU GRAIB = IRAQ

SAME DIFFERNCE??????

Why don't YOU "read closer":rolleyes:

same difference:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Let me S-P-E-L-L it out for you. Both are places were questions of abuses have been raised. Same difference for a lib. Attack anywhere a terrorist can be freed. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train


We could forget to mention here that the rape rooms and torture chambers Saddam used in Iraq (for the love of God libs, please SPARE me your gitmo references here) are now CLOSED.



You know what BT......



GO FUCK YOURSELF DRY


Dont blame ME ecause you posted the wrong shit, you fucking tool:rolleyes:




SADAAM'S RAPE ROOM AND TORTURE CHAMBERS WERE IN ABU GRAIB [AMONG OTHERS] BUT NEVER........................I REAPEA YOU FUCKING MINDLESS PICE OF SHIT...............NEVER IN GITMO.....WHICH IS THOUSANDS OF MILES AWAY IN CUBA


Read closer Lounge

Let me spell it out for you Lounge

Fuck you dick. YOU TYPED "GITMO REFERENCES" YOURSELF ASSHOLE,,,,,,,I POINTED OUT WE'RE STILL USING ABU GRAIB


So fuck off:cool:

fuckstump

[Loki]

thou art fools to argue. thine aggression will avail thee nought. huzzah.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Loki
thou art fools to argue. thine aggression will avail thee nought. huzzah.

You were great in Dogma:cool:

[Loki]

har har. thou art a bastion of wisdom amongst a pack of braggarts and fools, sir knight. huzzah.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Loki
har har. thou art a bastion of wisdom amongst a pack of braggarts and fools, sir knight. huzzah.


so I've been told.....:cool:

[Big Train]

Lounge change your huggies you fuckin baby.

I'll admit I wasn't specific and yes baby, incorrect. However, "Gitmo references" meant general prisoner abuse (citing anywhere from gitmo to detroit).

Sorry I angered your sensibility. Go have a smoke or a drink, get some air and come back and argue with me when your settled.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Big Train


I'll admit I wasn't specific and yes baby, incorrect. .


Pampers, bitch.

I wear PAMPERS [ huggies bind up ]


Now where's my applesauce:cool: