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POJO_Risin
07-24-2005, 10:46 AM
Here's the pivot....

ALinChainz
07-24-2005, 10:52 AM
Count the titles.

The best defensive center ever.

POJO_Risin
07-24-2005, 10:53 AM
What they Say...

Best all-time centers
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Charley Rosen / Special to FOXSports.com
Posted: 1 day ago



The biggest of the bigs are (or should be) always in the middle of the action.

They are the most dangerous offensive forces simply because defenses are usually most vulnerable in direct proportion to how close the ball is to the basket. Conversely, centers provide the last line of defense for their teams. That's why they are typically the most dominant and important players on their teams.

#1 — BILL RUSSELL
Bill Russell was so good that he revolutionized the game. Even the most casual NBA fans know that Russell was an outstanding rebounder and shot-blocker. He led the NBA five times in the former category and finished with a lifetime per game average of 22.5 rebounds. Unfortunately, the NBA didn't officially record blocked shots until 1973-74, four seasons after Russell retired. But what first-hand witnesses can testify to, however, is that Russell's timing and quick-lift were so uncanny that he could keep his feet on the court until the ball left the shooter's hand and still deflect the shot. At the same time, Russell had the knack of hitting the ball so that it remained in bounds and could therefore be recovered by the defense. That's how he turned layups into short-jumpers, short-jumpers into mid-range jumpers and mid-range jumpers into long-range jumpers.

In half-court sets, he scored with an accurate lefty hook, numerous put-backs and an occasional low-flying, wrist-snapping cross between a jumper and a one-handed set shot. During his 13 seasons with Boston, Russ tallied 15.1 ppg. But Russell was also one of the most fleet-footed centers of his time. Indeed, if his defensive rebounds and accurate outlet passes ignited Boston's famous running game, Russell's speed enabled the Celtics to run a five-man fast break. Accordingly, many of his points came via dunk shots on the trail end of the breaks.

He was much stronger than his 6-foot-10, 220-pound frame suggested. He had great hands, an unconquerable will to win, thorough understanding of every nuance (physical and psychological) and a willingness to sublimate his ego for the sake of team goals.

Russell's five MVP trophies (1958, 1961-63, 1965) and 11 rings proved for all time that defense wins championships.


#2 — KAREEM ABDUL-JABBAR
Putting the ball through the orange ring was always Kareem's specialty, as evidenced by the fact that he's the NBA's all-time leading scorer — a 20-year total of 38,387 that averages out to 24.6 ppg.

He was an active rebounder and shot-blocker when he was young, but defense wasn't really his forte. Despite his being named to five NBA All-Defensive teams, his lateral movement wasn't terrific and he rarely ventured too far from the shadow of the basket. With his dreadnaught sky-hook as his primary weapon, however, Kareem shot a fantastic 55.9 percent over his entire career! He could also spin and bank angle-jumpers, as well as turn offensive rebounds into dunkers.

An opponent's only hope was to be physical in defense of Kareem (always making sure to avoid being pronged by his sharp, aggressive elbows), and hope that he'd be weary in the end-game. He was an effective passer, so double-teaming wasn't much of an option, and was, in fact, an illegal tactic until late in Abdul-Jabbar's career. The only other effective strategy was to counter him with a hot-shooting center — which were scarce in those days — and attack Kareem with high screen/rolls. But whatever measures were taken to try to control his high-altitude offense, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was always the "center"-piece of the action.

His Hall-of-Fame resume includes a record six MVP awards (1971-'72, '74, '76-'77, 1980) and a like number of NBA championships. He was playing championship basketball at age 42 and could have continued for a few more years — but the league's referees were tired of Kareem and started to whistle him for charging fouls, hacks, traveling and palming violations that they'd been excusing for so long.

If Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's intense pride bordered on arrogance, his on-court excellence could only inspire admiration and awe.


#3 — SHAQUILLE O'NEAL
His Bigness (including his mouth, girth, intelligence, sense of humor and accomplishments) is still on the scene. For sure, he's slow off the floor, a limited rebounder, and a mostly stationary defender — but Shaq remains one of the best ever. Aside from Kevin McHale, Shaq has more moves at his disposal in the pivot than anyone else in the record book.

Russell was better on defense and infinitely more dominant. Abdul-Jabbar could score more points more efficiently. And, although Shaq has spent many seasons out of shape, struggling with injuries, and/or giving in to his own ennui, he's still more consistently competitive than was Chamberlain.


#4 — WILT CHAMBERLAIN
The only aspect of his game that prevented Chamberlain from leading the big man parade was his gargantuan ego. Before every season, Wilt would establish his own overriding priority, which was usually to lead the NBA in scoring (which he did from 1959-66), or rebounding (1959-63, '65-'69, '70-'73). One year (1967-68), the Big Dipper decided he'd be the NBA's leading passer. Therefore, instead of simply dunking unopposed offensive rebounds, Chamberlain would pass the ball out to Hal Greer — a reliable sharpshooter. And when all the numbers were tabulated at season's end, Chamberlain had accumulated a league-best 8.6 assists per game.

The trouble was that Chamberlain rarely focused on winning championships. He did win with the 1966-67 Philadelphia Warriors, but only after coach Alex Hannum shoved Wilt against a locker and threatened to smash his face if he didn't play the game the right way. Wilt's other title, with the 1971-72 L.A. Lakers, was motivated by coach Bill Sharman's slick psychology. "I'd just keep asking him questions about strategy," says Sharman, "until Wilt came up with the right answer. Then I'd tell him how smart he was and what a great idea he'd come up with. Thinking that every important strategy was his, Wilt played championship ball."


#5 — GEORGE MIKAN
The Babe Ruth of the NBA, Mikan's Minneapolis Lakers were the league's first dynasty, winning titles in 1949, '50 and '52-54 (plus two previous championships in the NBL). Big George was bigger, stronger, smarter, meaner and more fundamentally sound than his peers. He scored with right- and left-handed hooks and pivot shots (an extinct art form that was midway between an authentic hook and a jump hook), step-back one-handed flips and put-backs. From 1946-54, Mikan was scoring in the mid- to upper 20s at a time when a player's scoring 15 points was deemed to be a heroic effort. Mikan was his league-of-the-moment's leading point-maker in six of his nine pro seasons.

The NBA revised its rules on several occasions to hinder Mikan — including widening the lane, raising the basket to 12 feet, granting defensive players both inside lane spots on free throws and outlawing offensive goal tending. It was the 24-second shot clock (mandated for the 1954-56 season) that finally terminated Mikan's effectiveness and his career (except for a part-time comeback to play with his brother Ed in 1955-56).

During his short-lived hey day, Mikan was as dominant in his own fashion as were Russell and Abdul-Jabbar.

#6 — HAKEEM OLAJUWON
Hakeem Olajuwon was easily the most athletic of the top-ranked centers. In truth, he was a power forward successfully masquerading as a center.

When he first came into the league in 1984, Olajuwon relied mostly on a super-swift drop-step to generate his scoring opportunities. Then he learned to fake the drop-step and make a counter move — the turnaround jumper. From there, his offensive repertoire expanded in quantum leaps — face-up jumpers, drives and spins, jump hooks. Eventually, he became a virtually unstoppable scorer who concluded 19 seasons averaging 21.8 ppg.

And his defense was even better. Hakeem was incredibly quick to the ball. He led the NBA three times in blocked shots with a high of 4.59 per game in 1989-90, and is the NBA's career leader in that area. With his long arms and explosive hops, Olajuwon was also a dynamic rebounder — twice leading the league. But it was his incredible speed and single-minded desire to get a piece of every shot taken in his vicinity that also got him into chronic foul trouble.

What couldn't he do? Make accurate passes on a regular basis and dribble the ball in traffic.

Hakeem paced the Houston Rockets to back-to-back championships from 1994-95. Through it all, Olajuwon never cut a corner, never gave less than his best and was always a responsible citizen on and off the court.


#7 — NATE THURMOND

Former Spur David Robinson didn't quite make the top 10 centers of all-time list. (Brian Bahr / Getty Images)

This guy was simply a monster on defense. At 6-foot-11, 245 pounds, he was big, strong, active and intense. He could also score — mostly on offensive rebounds, jump hooks and backboard-rattling bank shots from 10 feet and in. But forget about the several seasons where Thurmond averaged 20-plus points a game (1967-72), his focus was on shutting down his opponents' numbers.

His battles with Chamberlain were legendary. Thurmond was the only defender who could get his hands on and totally negate Chamberlain's trademark finger-roll. Thurmond was just as determined to snare every missed shot. He finished his injury-wracked 14-year career averaging 15.0 rebounds per contest — and twice he averaged more than 20 caroms.

Thurmond played in an almost forgotten age where giants roamed the paint. Not only did he hold his own against the likes of Chamberlain, Abdul-Jabbar and Bob Lanier, he made them sweat for every shot and dispensed a bruise for every score.


#8 — BILL WALTON
The redhead was fully healthy for only 2 3/4 seasons: In 1976-77, when he keyed the Trail Blazers to a championship, and in '86, when he contributed valuable sixth-man-minutes to Boston's title run. In 1977-78, Walton played in only 58 games but was still honored as the league's MVP. During his entire career (1974-88), Walton missed four complete seasons with foot and ankle injuries.

When his wheels were sound, Walton could run, rebound and block shots (he led the league in both categories in 1976-77). He was totally committed to a team concept and, although he could score on jump hooks, bank shots and a variety of sudden drives and twisting moves, he scored only when he had to. In his best offensive season (1978-79), Walton scored 18.9 ppg, and finished his career with an impressive field goal accuracy of 52.1 percent.

He was a talented, and an unselfish ball distributor. Moreover, his defense was routinely outstanding whether throwing a bag over his individual opponent or rotating to help-spots in Jack Ramsay's crafty schemes.

Walton's career was blighted, however, when he signed a free-agent contract with the San Diego Clippers in 1979. At the time, the Clips were strictly an individualistic ball club, so Walton was forced to show his new teammates what he could do in one-on-one situations. This just wasn't enough to either make a difference or find his own comfort zone.

Despite the fact that Walton is the NBA's all-time leader in foot-and-ankle surgeries, his heart, talent and understanding of the game were always in tip-top condition.


Slightly off-center

David Robinson — too soft and too clutchless to succeed without being carried by Tim Duncan.

Moses Malone — a tireless rebounder who was disinclined to pass, play defense or let any teammate take more shots than he did.

Bob Lanier — no defense to speak of.

Neil Johnston — the real deal as long as he lasted.

Wes Unseld and Willis Reed — courage and toughness personified.

Jerry Lucas — great hands, shooting range and perhaps the most intelligent practitioner of the art and science of playing the five-spot.

Charley Rosen, former CBA coach, author of 12 books about hoops, the current one being A pivotal season — How the 1971-72 L.A. Lakers changed the NBA, is a frequent contributor to FOXSports.com.

ALinChainz
07-24-2005, 10:56 AM
I would have probably went with Wilt at #2 and Kareem at #3.

I'm a Shaq fan, but among all time greats, that's a tad high.

ALinChainz
07-24-2005, 10:58 AM
And anywhere in the top 10 is too high for Walton.

POJO_Risin
07-24-2005, 10:59 AM
I'd pick both Kareem and Russell if I could...

but you can't beat 11 Titles...and 22.5 boards a game for his career...and from what I hear...he could block shots as well as anyone...

Kareem, no doubt...was the best center I ever saw...

but in the end...Russell not only won the title...dominated the paint...but really...created the position we know today...

Mikan was the first great big man...but Russell was the big man that created the position that EVERYONE looks for today...

POJO_Risin
07-24-2005, 11:01 AM
I agree with the Walton debate...but only because of his lack of playing time because of injury...

if you look at his first couple of years...it could be said that he was a great already...but he didn't have the longetivity at that level to make a difference...

I think you could have Shaq top five for sure...but NOT ahead of Chamberlain...

ALinChainz
07-24-2005, 11:12 AM
Russell was pretty much the only guy who could handle Wilt, and not that Wilt's numbers were lacking at all against him.

Kareem had the sky hook, which was indefensible. I would have like to have seen him sustain the rebound numbers as he got on in his career.

I have no problem with Mikan other than of all the centers listed, he is the one I saw the least of (I'm old, just not THAT old).

Akeem was damn good, and is rated about where he should be.

ALinChainz
07-24-2005, 11:16 AM
I didn't mind Walton's game. Hate the guy, but was solid fundamentally.

But injury alone should have kept him out of the top ten, can't rank the guy on what might have been.

POJO_Risin
07-24-2005, 11:25 AM
No Ewing...interesting...

and I think that Thurmond was generally considered as a guy who could control Chamberlain in his prime...

ALinChainz
07-24-2005, 12:17 PM
Good point.

I didn't even notice there was no Ewing.

Would like to know why they excluded him, although the reasons may be the same they inlcuded some of the guys they did in the list.

Va Beach VH Fan
07-24-2005, 01:22 PM
Kareem, the most unstoppable shot of all time....

Brett
07-24-2005, 02:22 PM
I went with Kareem, invented the most unstoppable shot in the skyhook. And he played a long fucking time using it. And in his earlier years he was a fierece defender as well, good rebounder. As he got older, obviously that aspect of his game declined, but he could still score.

And hey man, they got rid of the dunk rule in college because of Kareem. Anyone that can change the rule of the game at any level gets my vote.

Wilt of course did too...and even Shaq. But I like Kareem more. :)

POJO_Risin
07-24-2005, 07:06 PM
Kareem's really the only other guy that you can compare to Russell...

and I've never seen Russell play...but have seen Kareem play...

no doubt...Kareem is the best center I've seen...but 11 titles...over 20 boards a year...

I think the Kareem deal was certainly part of the banning of the dunk...but I think there was a more realistic deal with it...I read a story a while back about Adolph Rupp getting rid of the dunk after they lost to Texas Western...

Despite being eight-point underdogs, Lattin and the Miners never doubted they would make Rupp regret his statement. Lattin helped set the tone early in the game with his famous dunk over future Basketball Hall of Famer Pat Riley — a play many experts claim as the sole cause of the banning of the dunk from college basketball for the next decade, thanks to Rupp and the NCAA.

“I thought it was comical,” Lattin said. “Adolph (Rupp) was powerful enough to get the NCAA to stop the dunk, but he wasn’t powerful enough to get a black player on his team. I was mad when they took the dunk away. I loved dunking on people. I use to dunk 100 baskets a day in practice.”


I think Rupp controlled enough people that he could do it too...I think that...along with Alcindor coming to UCLA...was enough to get the bigwigs to ban the dunk...

POJO_Risin
07-24-2005, 07:08 PM
It's hard to get past the skyhook though...an incredible shot...that you will never see again...

Warham
07-24-2005, 08:38 PM
Being a Lakers fan, it's hard to go against Kareem, and he is one of my two favorite players of all-time, but I have to say Russell.

Matt White
07-24-2005, 09:13 PM
I'll say WILT CHAMBERLAIN....BEST CENTER EVER.

Total package in his prime.

Tiger Roth
07-24-2005, 10:12 PM
I went with Bill Russell.

You'd love to see one on one with some of these guys.

Could Bill Russell match David Robinsons speed?

Could Olajuwon stop Kareems skyhook?

It would be fascinating.

DLR7884
07-25-2005, 01:29 PM
I went with Chamberlin...

DLR7884
The rules of the game were changed because of him.

Brett
07-25-2005, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Tiger Roth

Could Olajuwon stop Kareems skyhook?


The answer is no, nobody else could. And Olajuwon never could either. Yes I know he was younger when Kareem played with him, but Kareem also wasn't the same player then either.

Brett
07-25-2005, 02:26 PM
LOL, who voted for Shaq?

VonHalen
07-25-2005, 05:23 PM
gotta go with Kareem

Tiger Roth
07-26-2005, 09:10 PM
Originally posted by Brett
The answer is no, nobody else could. And Olajuwon never could either. Yes I know he was younger when Kareem played with him, but Kareem also wasn't the same player then either.
Yep, you're probably right - but it'd still be great to see those guys head to head in their prime.

DlocRoth
07-27-2005, 02:15 PM
Mikan. Period.

Then Russel, Chamberlain and Kareem in a big ball at #2.

The man invented the position.

redblkwht
07-27-2005, 06:26 PM
Bill, no doubt brings it all to table..

Wilt never won enough.
1 exception 10,000 women ;)

mm mmm..
that's some heavy fuckin'':D