CAFTA Trade Pact Clears US Congress

[Cathedral]

WASHINGTON (AFP) - A free trade pact with Central America and the Dominican Republic cleared the US Congress, after it was approved by a narrow 217-215 vote in the House of Representatives.


Pushed by the administration of President George W. Bush, CAFTA-DR passed the House thanks to 15 Democrats who voted against their party line. Twenty-seven Republican lawmakers and one independent voted against the pact.

The trade agreement was hotly debated among both parties and represents a key victory for Bush, who risked considerable political capital in pressing for its approval.

Signed more than a year ago, CAFTA-DR was approved by a 54-45 vote in the Senate on June 30 and its passage in the House was uncertain until the last minute.

Bush and his cabinet fought an uphill battle to have it approved.

While CAFTA-DR is expected to have little impact on the US economy, which exports 15 billion dollars worth of goods to Central America, it became the most controversial free trade agremeent Congress debated in years.

In a rare meeting behind closed doors, Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and US Trade Representative Rob Portman (news, bio, voting record) spent more than one hour in Congress on Wednesday to press Republican lawmakers to fully support the trade pact.

Backers of the trade agreement argue it is a way to fend off the threat of Chinese textile exports by spurring further integration of US yarn and textile producers with low-cost garment makers in with the Dominican Republic, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Honduras, Costa Rica and Guatemala.

Additionally, some have been arguing the measure is needed for economic stability and security in the region and to reduce illegal immigration into the United States.

Failure to pass CAFTA-DR would have made Bush politically vulnerable for the remainder of his second term in office and seriously weakened his hand in negotiating a wider Free Trade Area of the Americas and bringing about a freer global trading system under the Doha Round of talks under the World Trade Organization.

Democrats strongly opposed the deal because they claim it fails to impose fair labor standards in a region unsupportive of workers' rights and represents unfair competition to US workers.

The White House insists CAFTA-DR's labor standards are the most rigorous of all free trade pacts the United States has negotiated so far.

Lawmakers from sugar-producing and textile-manufacturing states also rejected the trade deal fearing it could increase unemployment in their regions.

"We must not neglect the anti-democracy, anti-American forces that are at work in Latin America," said Republican representative for California David Dreier said in support of CAFTA-DR during the two-hour debate before the vote.

"Certainly, CAFTA does not fix all the problems facing Central America. But increased economic integration can only add jobs and help alleviate poverty, reduce the flow of migration northward, and make our region more competitive in world markets," said Jim Kolbe, Republican for Arizona.

Maryland Democrat Whip Steny Hoyer said he could not support the measure "for its failure to guarantee basic workplace protections for Central Americans and a level playing field for American workers."

CAFTA-DR "is about institutionalizing cheap labor," said Ohio Democrat Dennis Kucinich, while Democratic Minority leader Nancy Pelosi, noting the negative impact on employment, said CAFGA "only digs the hole deeper."

Despite its protectionist rhetoric, the US Congress has rejected no trade agreement in the past 40 years.

The United States entered a free trade agreement with Mexico and Canada in 1994 and with Chile in 2003.

Before CAFTA can go into effect, it must be approved by the legislatures of Nicaragua, Costa Rica and the Dominican Republic.

[Cathedral]

Damn, Kucinich finally says something i agree with?

Stop the fucking presses!

Ladies and Gentlemen, like father like fucking son.
Another Bush selling out American jobs because that is exactly what this is going to do.
It's 1994 all over again, and we learned nothing?

Why we don't invest in our own country, and our own people is beyond my fucking comprehension.

Hmmmm, this disconnect between our leaders and the people must come to an end.
I saw a poll today that 96% of the citizens polled were against this deal..............that's 96%!

That's it, I want George gone, like now.
We can't afford another 3 million job losses over the next 3 years.

And with the way business is being done lately, the last thing i want Bush touching is Social Security.

Bottom line, CAFTA means jobs lost so, just like in '94 we're putting other countries to work while unemploying our own citizens.

HOW IN THE FUCK DOES THAT MAKE SENSE?

[FORD]

It doesn't make any fucking sense. And once again, the DLC traitors were the deciding factor, for the most part.

More disturbing locally is that Norm Dicks voted for the shit. He's not my congressman, but I'm still shocked he voted for this.

Norm's district has two major constituencies. One is the military, with Army, Navy, and Air Force bases included. The other is the Olympic Peninsula which traditionally depended on two industries, timber and fishing - both of which were devastated by corporate greed and overharvesting.

How can outsourcing jobs to Central America possibly help this district?

Norm, what the fuck were you thinking?? You aren't even DLC, for fucks sake!!

[Cathedral]

I'm shocked at a few names that voted yes to this shit.
When NAFTA was passed in '94 it meant a 60% reduction in the products we made at SSI Manufacturing.
That led to reducing the staff which ultimately left nobody working there except us Supervisors.
At that point we were a tribe of Chief's with no Indians beneath.

Then the company folded and we were all out on our ass.

Mexicans got all of our work at that point, and their quality was total shit.
Hell, before we went under we were sent a few shipments from Mexico of products that were taken away from us, for us to repair and fix their fuck-ups.
The owner of the company agreed to it because he thought that the lack of quality in the product would bring them back to us.

But it was so much cheaper to out source it that they worked with Mexico until they got there shit somewhat together.

I wasn't alone then, every state was effected by NAFTA in a negative way. I just thank God this shit won't effect my current position today. or should i say, I can't see how it will just yet.

This shit is nothing but an extension of NAFTA, and it promises more of the same and in the end, the loss of our Independance as a Nation.

We are about to hand over the keys to people that have no interest in our future prosperity.

If it was about "Fair" trade, then it wouldn't have so many economical downfalls for the American Worker.
All this shit does here at home is create trade deficits and the closing of American Companies.

G.W. is just like his fucking father, and i want his ass gone, NOW!

[worldbefree]

The 15 Democrats that voted for CAFTA.

Melissa Bean, Illinois (8th District): 202-225-3711

Jim Cooper, Tennessee (5th District): 202-225-4311

Norm Dicks, Washington (6th District): 202-225-5916

Henry Cuellar, Texas (28th District): 202-225-1640

Ruben Hinojosa, Texas (15th District): (202) 225-2531

William Jefferson, Louisiana (2nd District): (202) 225-6636

Jim Matheson, Utah (2nd District): (202) 225-3011

Gregory Meeks, New York (6th District): 202-225-3461

Dennis Moore, Kansas (3rd District): (202) 225-2865

Jim Moran, Virginia (8th District): (202) 225-4376

Solomon Ortiz, Texas (27th District): 202-225-7742

Ike Skelton, Missouri (4th District): 202-225-2876

Vic Snyder, Arkansas (2nd District): 202-225-2506

John Tanner, Tennessee (8th District): (202) 225-4714

Edolphus Towns, New York (10th District: (202) 225-5936

[Cathedral]

I don't recognize a single name on that list, lol.
I am surprised that any Democrats voted for it at all.

I know Ohio voted against it, because they remember the economic impact of NAFTA in '94 and mass Ohioans let them know it too.


This is just a bad deal from the start, i knew it then and i damn sure know it now.

[WACF]

NAFTA was one of the worse things Canada ever singned onto.

[Cathedral]

It's all part of the plan to group the nations so the European Union can be born through the FTAA.

Like i said, we're about to hand the keys over to a U.N. type of organization that rules us all, as one.

And they don't give a shit about our prosperity at all.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by Cathedral

Additionally, some have been arguing the measure is needed for economic stability and security in the region and to reduce illegal immigration into the United States.


"Certainly, CAFTA does not fix all the problems facing Central America. But increased economic integration can only add jobs and help alleviate poverty, reduce the flow of migration northward, and make our region more competitive in world markets," said Jim Kolbe, Republican for Arizona.




Makes all the sense in the world to me.

We are NOT a manufacturing country anymore and that is just how it is. Too many poor people in the world to compete against that labor. Just the facts.

The costs of the US (and it's workers) getting into new industries and dominating them FAR outweigh the costs of immigration and making a commodity out of existing ones.

Americans not evolving is what is "selling America out".

[Cathedral]

This happened for two major reason, bro.
Americans got LAZY and our government wants to drive straight into a New World Order, just like Daddy Bush wanted to do with NAFTA.

But i was directly affected by NAFTA, and i'm no lazy fuck.
So i do know first hand how wrong this shit is.

If we cut the throats of our own labor force there will be no alternative but to join the European Union, which until recently is what i thought we wanted to avoid.

This means an end to our independance, and that is the plain truth.

If these deals were "FAIR" to our own workers, it would be a different story.
Look for more trade deficits that we can't control and a future where America goes bankrupt.

Fuck, the terrorists will get their wish because we'll drive ourselves to our knee's....

[Cathedral]

You know, I think the vote for CAFTA was illegal.
I just learned that there were two time extensions before the vote but i'm not sure the extensions were voted on.
CAFTA was clearly not going to pass if these extensions were necessary and i'm wondering what Bush and DeLay dangled in front of the opposers to get support for something that is clearly BAD for our country.

I know, it's easy for people who never lost a job directly due to a Bill being passed to say it's good for our economy.
But those people don't understand the fine print in these Trade Agreements.
I do, because i was in the Manufacturing Industry until NAFTA passed and screwed me out of a $15.00 an hour job with excellent benefits.
I just happened to be a newlywed and had a new baby to take care of at that time too.
That's when i had no choice but to get on welfare to pay my rent and feed my family.
In the early 90's, do you remember how hard it was to find a job that paid $15 bucks an hour?
I remember the average being around $8 to $10, and i couldn't live on that.

Those times were very tough, but i climbed my way out of it and it took me until 2 years ago to do it.
So yeah, I take it personally when people comment as though it was no biggie and that i should have just accepted it as, "it is what it is".

CODEX, do a search on it and take a look at what it means for us.
It was included in the CAFTA Bill.
Then come back and tell me that these deals are "FAIR" and "PROTECT" our labor force, our schools, our taxes, our health care system, and the list goes on.

Look at what NAFTA has done to Mexico, and then understand that the same thing is going to happen to our Central American neighbors in a few short years.

We not only don't manufacture anything anymore, we aren't educating innovators anymore either. The Knowledge field is also going overseas.

Anyone who thinks this is good for our economy has fucking rocks in their head, period...Do your fucking homework before jumping on the Bush band wagon, dammit.
I lived it, and i'm glad those of you who felt no impact from these deals were spared.
But will you be this time?

In the mid 90's when people were losing jobs left and right it was a time when productivity was high and so were Corporate Profits, so who benefits from these deals that offer no security or protection to our own labor force?
The rich, and those who were averaging $15-$17 an hour found themselves unable to find jobs over $10 an hour.

In my view, these Bills are Treasonous, straight the fuck up, Treason.

Bush is creating low wage jobs overseas by giving ours away, is that the kind of job creation you instilled your trust in the man to do?

I voted for the sack of shit twice, and i fucking regret it like i have never regretted anything in my entire fucking life.

Bush has done the opposite of everything he swore under oath to do for this country, and i hope God hands down his judgement exactly as he deserves it.

Christian my ass, he's a fucking Corporatist Criminal that has sold us out time and time again.

I'm pulling my support for everyone i supported that voted yes to this shit. And I am going to campaign and put my money against their bids for re-election.
I've had it, I'm done, and with any luck they will be gone come Mid-Term Elections.

Thanks for letting me vent, I can't fucking sleep because of this De Ja Vue BULLSHIT!



So it does get under my skin when people act as though it is no big deal.
I can't sleep because of what has just happened, and though i didn't understand NAFTA when it was passed, I fully fucking understand it now.

[Cathedral]

I've been working on this for two days, since the vote.
I'll share it with you all.
This is my first letter, and it's for my Rep. Mr. John Boehner.

I'm trying to write one for Bush, but i can't seem to keep my temper under control, lmmfao.

It begins with a "Thank You" in the subject field so whoever reads it will think it is supportive.

Anyway, here it is:

Dear Mr. John Boehner,
Why did you stand with Bush to help pass CAFTA by just two votes, adding to his political capital by giving him a major victory that hurts this country so badly, so fundamentally, so irreversibly?

You can say jobs, jobs, jobs, but what kind of jobs and for who, what kind of working conditions, and at what cost to the protection of our health and welfare with CAFTA putting so many critical decisions outside our system of governments and courts?

Your vote for CAFTA makes your votes in Congress and our votes at the ballot box less and less important while increasing the power of multi-national corporations that are larger than most countries and states and will run right over us.

And what's worse, you've been told this and told this time and time again.

Do you really not understand the magnitude of what you’ve done, the impact that your vote will have on our country and on our way of life for generations to come?

Do you just not believe it?

Then tell us how we're wrong about this and how Bush and the multi-nationals are right. And i am not interested in regurgitated speeches that have been told to the American People which we know is simply garbage. Remember, we already know the failures of NAFTA.

Don't talk about jobs, jobs, jobs, but speak to the bigger, life-and-death issue of the closed Chapter Eleven NAFTA and CAFTA tribunals that can overrule our state and federal court systems, Congress, state governments, and local governments no matter what the cost to the health and safety of our families, neighborhoods, and communities. And talk to the issue that these tribunals just work in one direction, giving corporations recourse against our laws and regulations but giving us no recourse against the corporations.

And don't forget that your vote helped to pass a basically irreversible treaty and pave the way for more treaties like it.
I have supported you fully in the past, and you have sold us out in return. Your next bid for re-election will find me putting my support and my money against you. I fully intend to seek support from everyone i can to accomplish this task.
Your days in office are numbered if I have anything to say about it.

Sleep Well, though i don't see how you can at this point.

[Big Train]

Cathedral,

In your eyes, given all the facts we both agree to (Cheaper labor elsewhere, Americans being lazy, immigration issues), to YOU, what is the correct way for America to proceed. Curious how you see it.

[Cathedral]

How do I think America should proceed?
First, grab a drink and sit back, this will be a long post, lol.

I would fix it, because ending it would be disasterous not only to ourselves, but to all of the countries involved.
The Agreements need to be reviewed and re-written to remove the inequities that gives Corporations the Ultimate Power over us, and leaves us no recourse in disputes.

Provisions need to be made that protect the workers here at home and that keep companies here as well. And incentives must be added to spawn investment in this country which will bring businesses back to where they belong.
If NAFTA and CAFTA were "FAIR" Trade Agreements then they would have a positive impact for all who are involved, and not just the Corporations, who are the only one's who benefit from these Agreement's at present.

We should only do business with countries who share the exact labor and environmental and human rights standards that we do in all those countries.
We shouldn't be in the business of having free and open borders with countries that don't have the same environmental, labor and human rights standards. And if we do that, that alone will make us able to create manufacturing jobs in America again and they'll stay in America.
China for example, It's a Communist Nation, so I wouldn't do business with them at all because by doing so, we support Communism.

Yet China is the biggest producer of American goods and has become the number one importer we deal with. This has basically made China what America used to be and in the last 11 years over 800,000 manufacturing jobs have been lost here at home because these Trade Agreements simply are not fair and only benefit the Corporations...They profit, We suffer.

NAFTA, was a 2000 page document, and most who voted for it didn't even read the damn thing. So what i would do is simple, I'd fix the Agreements by reviewing them and re-write them excluding everything that was not equal for ALL who are involved. This would also stem migration because if NAFTA had done what it was "CLAIMED" to do, wages would be higher in the countries where we are currently running up a collective annual $200 billion dollar trade deficit. which upon further review leads me to believe that it is the fact that even our low paying jobs are better than what is available in Mexico so they flock here as a means to survive. And this screams to me the entire reason why our borders remain wide open and nothing is done to curb illegal immigration.

How can Bush close the borders when he himself supports the agreements that created the problem in the first place?

Illegal Immigration has doubled since NAFTA became a failure.

The Americans i agreed that were lazy, maybe aren't lazy at all. They just can't find jobs that are sufficient enough to take care of their families and either end up on welfare or drifting from job to job trying to get a leg up...This is exactly what i have done over the last decade, and i'm no lazy fuck.
Canada is currently looking into fixing the agreement on their end, yet not one American politician who has seen the failures of NAFTA over the last decade and can begin the process of fixing it has stepped forward to do so, No, instead we passed another one that makes even less provisions for the worker and increases the profit margin for the Corporations who have control over our government, and more to come shortly.

It is MY goal to support leadership that intends to fix these inequities and apply provisions that protect the workers in all the participating Nations in persuit of a Fair and Equal Trade Agreement that benefits not only Corporations, but those who actually build the prospective countries which are the workers in these countries.

See, I'm not against Trade Agreements, I am against the way they have been executed which has led to the erosion of our own country as well as those who believed the bullshit as we did.

NAFTA was a failure, and CAFTA is an extension of that failure that does even more damage that will be evident over the next decade.

All that said, I'd simply disect it and fix what has clearly proven to be bad for everyone.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by Cathedral


Provisions need to be made that protect the workers here at home and that keep companies here as well. And incentives must be added to spawn investment in this country which will bring businesses back to where they belong.
If NAFTA and CAFTA were "FAIR" Trade Agreements then they would have a positive impact for all who are involved, and not just the Corporations, who are the only one's who benefit from these Agreement's at present.

We should only do business with countries who share the exact labor and environmental and human rights standards that we do in all those countries.
We shouldn't be in the business of having free and open borders with countries that don't have the same environmental, labor and human rights standards. And if we do that, that alone will make us able to create manufacturing jobs in America again and they'll stay in America.
China for example, It's a Communist Nation, so I wouldn't do business with them at all because by doing so, we support Communism.

This would also stem migration because if NAFTA had done what it was "CLAIMED" to do, wages would be higher in the countries where we are currently running up a collective annual $200 billion dollar trade deficit. which upon further review leads me to believe that it is the fact that even our low paying jobs are better than what is available in Mexico so they flock here as a means to survive. And this screams to me the entire reason why our borders remain wide open and nothing is done to curb illegal immigration.

The Americans i agreed that were lazy, maybe aren't lazy at all. They just can't find jobs that are sufficient enough to take care of their families and either end up on welfare or drifting from job to job trying to get a leg up.

When you say provisions, like what? How do you overcome the cold hard facts? Any product that we make in America and try to sell elsewhere is going to be 3-5x as expensive as one they have made? Who do you sell that to? Second, if you give HUGE tax breaks (which you would have to to offset costs), the community with the factory makes very little from the companies presence outside of taxed worker salaries. You end up still at square one.

Immigration has little to do with NAFTA and a lot to do with lax rules and opportunity . Yes, the opportunity there is slim to none. If they did make as much as American workers and such, yea Americans should be pissed. But they don't. But they come here because they can. If China was next door, they would be flocking here too. So what? Should they be making 40k with benefits? Is that what you mean by fair and equitable?

Americans are lazy. A lot of them are looking to get what their WWII parents told them "Get a good job with security and benefits". A sound theory indeed. However, an outmoded one. We are in a different time and place, a place where you will have many careers over your life. A place where "renting" your skills becomes the norm, not working as an employee. Where owning your own business is the most secure way to do things. Its an ownership society. It has been for quite some time. Americans don't want to change with the world, but want to stubbornly cling onto the way "my daddy did it". It's a mistake and it's a shame for future generations.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train


Americans are lazy. A lot of them are looking to get what their WWII parents told them "Get a good job with security and benefits". A sound theory indeed. However, an outmoded one. We are in a different time and place, a place where you will have many careers over your life. A place where "renting" your skills becomes the norm, not working as an employee. Where owning your own business is the most secure way to do things. Its an ownership society. It has been for quite some time. Americans don't want to change with the world, but want to stubbornly cling onto the way "my daddy did it". It's a mistake and it's a shame for future generations.

Your superiority complex is showing, BT. Why are Americans who want "a good job with security and benefits" lazy? Because you say so? Maybe some of these workers didn't (gasp!) go to college and yes, maybe some of these outmoded fools even thought it was a GOOD thing to work at one place for a long time. I seem to remember you blasting me once because I said you disdained the average working man. Your disdain is even more evident now. You are just another sheep, spouting the Dubyan "ownership society" mantra in blind allegiance to your leader.

"See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." —George W. Bush, Greece, N.Y., May 24, 2005

[Big Train]

Love it, thanks for pointing me out. Actually, I'm ALL for the working man. Always have been. What I'm against is union leaders and such who are not actively helping their membership in ANY way other than larger contracts where possible. Which is fading quick, as the airline industry is showing.

When you speak of "Blind Alliegance to my leader", that could be ANY auto union, mechanics union etc.. None of those guys are doing a damn thing to help the workers prepare themselves for the future or even encouraging them to do anything different, learn new skills, how to cope. Nothing. And the workers just want to join the union and stop thinking. THAT IS LAZY. The union can not stop the outside world, it can not stop the business world and it can not stop the macro changes other governments are making and developing. Better skills and new industries of dominance can.


And it is not superiority that drives me to say it. It is out of concern for American workers, the American middle class and the American way of life that I firmly and deeply believe in. If things are not going the right way, I have every right to say so, whether you agree with me or not.

[FORD]

Ownership society is a load of horseshit. George Bush Jr destroyed every business he ever "owned" (or rather conned Daddy's friends into investing into).

And because of the insane deregulation which both DLC Clinton and BCE Chimp are guilty of, so many industries are in the hands of so few companies, that the Republican party's "holy words" like "free enterprise" mean absolutely nothing anymore. You can't start a business and compete with 4 or 5 multi-national price fixing corporations. Especially when they have their labor in Vietnamese sweatshops, their call centers in India, and their corporate headquarters in the Cayman Islands for "tax purposes".

How the FUCK does a small business compete against that?

[Big Train]

Obviously you have never been in business for yourself.

[NightProwler]

you're one of those "business owners" who spends their time goofing off on message boards?

[Big Train]

I'm actually semi-retired...made most of my money already, thank you. So yea, I guess I am.

[Cathedral]

I guess it was just all my fault for being in the manufacturing biz in the first place, eh?
Dude, it doesn't make it any easier watching your family suffer and wondering where the next meal is coming from when you have been on a steak diet all your working life.

And it makes things much tougher when the entire reason you lost that job, insurance, 401-K and everything you busted your ass to provide for your family in the name of Corporate Profits.

But it's pretty easy to sit in an elitest position and cast opinions about things you have never seen the bad side of personally.
That just tells me one thing, that you are as out of touch with mainstream america as those who create shoddy deals like this.

There is no talking to people with that point of view until the hammer swings in your direction and you are knocked into poverty and bankruptcy at a time when production is up, profits are high, but your own damned government makes it impossible for the company that employs you to keep their doors open.

BT, i'm glad you are semi-retired, i'm glad you have made most of your money at this point...but some of us weren't as fortunate and it had nothing to do with laziness with most of us, over 800,000 of us to be exact.
Unless you were one of those 800,000 people, I don't expect you to understand.
I agree with your point about being lazy, but i applied that idea to those people who were too lazy to get the fuck up out of bed and find a job, not those who had them and busted their ass to keep them and advance.
You even talk in circles with the "working many jobs in a lifetime" crap, because in my experience employers look at those types of people as though they can't be dedicated to one thing for very long, they call them "drifters" and wonder if they are worth hiring.

It costs money to train people, and employers don't like hiring people with a record of "moving around" so much.

It's this little important issue they call "Stability" that makes your point of view so insulting, man.

I made it through though, I'm doing very well today given everything on my plate, which is a hell of alot.
But a lot of people didn't and to this day are living on scraps from the government and it wasn't because they were lazy, it's because their field was eliminated by those who swore under oath to protect that aspect of their lives.

I hated Clinton for pushing NAFTA through, and now I hate Bush for pushing CAFTA through.
But not so much for myself as i don't see how that can or will affect me. But i didn't know back then either until it was done and i was sunk.

I didn't ever want my wife to work, it is my job to provide for my family.
It was her job to see that our kids didn't grow up learning the babysitters moral value system instead of ours.
That's why kids are out of touch with Mom and Dad these last couple of decades.

You and I come from different perspectives, that i can respect, but it is your lack of realistic understanding that you were just plain lucky you weren't in similar shoes that i find offensive and out of touch.

Your position would be completely different, bro...that i guarentee you.

Roth On!

[Big Train]

Not as different as you might think. As far as my being in some ivory tower, do you think I just woke up here?

Just plain lucky? I worked my BALLS off to get my money, I thank you. And as far as not understanding, my flesh and blood were in the EXACT same position. My brother was in manufacturing most of his life. Got laid off for 4 years, no chance at finding any manufacturing work. So he took his skills, adapted them and started a small business, which is now starting to flourish. And no, I did not finance it, although I did help coach him through some of the business side of things.

Bottom line is this Cathedral. Whether or not we agree about what the government is doing, the macro economic factors across the world aren't going to change. If the government isn't going to help the working man, isn't the union, whose supposed sole purpose is to help the working man, gonna try and do anything? Or are we just gonna sit here and say we fucked, end of story? I'm definitely not trying to begrudge you what your going through, and in fact I sympathize. Lord knows my own financial security has been tested with the ups and downs of my own business (but we can't talk about that, makes some people touchy around here).

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train
Love it, thanks for pointing me out. Actually, I'm ALL for the working man. Always have been. What I'm against is union leaders and such who are not actively helping their membership in ANY way other than larger contracts where possible. Which is fading quick, as the airline industry is showing.

When you speak of "Blind Alliegance to my leader", that could be ANY auto union, mechanics union etc.. None of those guys are doing a damn thing to help the workers prepare themselves for the future or even encouraging them to do anything different, learn new skills, how to cope. Nothing. And the workers just want to join the union and stop thinking. THAT IS LAZY. The union can not stop the outside world, it can not stop the business world and it can not stop the macro changes other governments are making and developing. Better skills and new industries of dominance can.


And it is not superiority that drives me to say it. It is out of concern for American workers, the American middle class and the American way of life that I firmly and deeply believe in. If things are not going the right way, I have every right to say so, whether you agree with me or not.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train
Love it, thanks for pointing me out. Actually, I'm ALL for the working man. Always have been. What I'm against is union leaders and such who are not actively helping their membership in ANY way other than larger contracts where possible. Which is fading quick, as the airline industry is showing.

When you speak of "Blind Alliegance to my leader", that could be ANY auto union, mechanics union etc.. None of those guys are doing a damn thing to help the workers prepare themselves for the future or even encouraging them to do anything different, learn new skills, how to cope. Nothing. And the workers just want to join the union and stop thinking. THAT IS LAZY. The union can not stop the outside world, it can not stop the business world and it can not stop the macro changes other governments are making and developing. Better skills and new industries of dominance can.


And it is not superiority that drives me to say it. It is out of concern for American workers, the American middle class and the American way of life that I firmly and deeply believe in. If things are not going the right way, I have every right to say so, whether you agree with me or not.

OK, let's try this again.

Nice spin job, BT. Even though I never mentioned the union, you made it the primary subject of your reply. You'd be right at home in your leader's (and not the union) administration. The fact is that only 12.5 PER CENT of US wage and salary workers are union. What about the 87.5 per cent of American workers who are not union? I guess they are just fucking lazy as HELL. But like I said , it was a great spin job. I think you missed your calling.

[Big Train]

ok, let me know "spin it" and discuss the general worker. Where are the skill development? Tell me. How is it foreigners are coming here and becoming substancially richer and more adapatable in a generation or less. Riddle me that. Why are Americans not? It isn't just the usual complaints, education, finance etc..

How are these people coming here and doing and why can't we? Effort...they put it in. Call me arrogant for calling it like it is, but it is true.

[DLR'sCock]

no, the problem is greed from the top....


fuck the people that got you there!!! fuck em', fuck em' hard, and fuck em' good....



Closer and closer to the 2 class Fascist State we are coming.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train
ok, let me know "spin it" and discuss the general worker. Where are the skill development? Tell me. How is it foreigners are coming here and becoming substancially richer and more adapatable in a generation or less. Riddle me that. Why are Americans not? It isn't just the usual complaints, education, finance etc..

How are these people coming here and doing and why can't we? Effort...they put it in. Call me arrogant for calling it like it is, but it is true.

Here we go again. Where the hell are you coming from? I'm not talking about immigrant's work ethics, and you fucking know it. I'm talking about people who want to work, and find their jobs going somewhere else because of corporation-friendly policies like NAFTA, and now CAFTA.
As for skill development for "general workers" (what the hell does that mean...non-union?), the skill development are (?) there for people who lose jobs because of NAFTA, but in many cases there are no jobs for the skills they have learned. Any fucking policy that puts anybody out of work who wants to work ( even the "general" workers) is fucking ridiculous. Especially coming from a "president" who so blatantly courts the wealthy. Of course, I live in a state that has lost 25% of it's manufacturing jobs in two years, so maybe I'm out of touch with reality. Or at least your Dubyan, surrealistic reality.

"I think it's very important for the American President to mean what he says. That's why I understand that the enemy could misread what I say. That's why I try to be as clearly I can." —George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Sept. 23, 2004

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
ok, let me know "spin it" and discuss the general worker. Where are the skill development? Tell me. How is it foreigners are coming here and becoming substancially richer and more adapatable in a generation or less. Riddle me that. Why are Americans not? It isn't just the usual complaints, education, finance etc..

How are these people coming here and doing and why can't we? Effort...they put it in. Call me arrogant for calling it like it is, but it is true.

Which foreigners? I think your data is a little out of date BT. The Vietnamese boat people arrived long ago.

[thome]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Which foreigners? I think your data is a little out of date BT. The Vietnamese boat people arrived long ago.
My butt smells like Honey paste up boy

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Big Train
Not as different as you might think. As far as my being in some ivory tower, do you think I just woke up here?

Just plain lucky? I worked my BALLS off to get my money, I thank you. And as far as not understanding, my flesh and blood were in the EXACT same position. My brother was in manufacturing most of his life. Got laid off for 4 years, no chance at finding any manufacturing work. So he took his skills, adapted them and started a small business, which is now starting to flourish. And no, I did not finance it, although I did help coach him through some of the business side of things.

Bottom line is this Cathedral. Whether or not we agree about what the government is doing, the macro economic factors across the world aren't going to change. If the government isn't going to help the working man, isn't the union, whose supposed sole purpose is to help the working man, gonna try and do anything? Or are we just gonna sit here and say we fucked, end of story? I'm definitely not trying to begrudge you what your going through, and in fact I sympathize. Lord knows my own financial security has been tested with the ups and downs of my own business (but we can't talk about that, makes some people touchy around here).

It's not just Manufacturing jobs that are being shipped overseas. It's our knowledge field as well.
There aren't any Corporations investing in America anymore, and along with that the other progressing countries are the one's currently turning out the educated innovators of the future.

If the trade deals were fair then all the countries involved would evolve to the point where things wouldn't be cheaper and they could build their own countries up so that they could afford American Made goods.

Fair trade to me isn't selling off everything we own while getting less in return, if we get anything at all.

And the single fact that we have communist nations involved in these deals only means that we support what we have historically fought against since the beginning.
There are so many different angles that screw us so hard on this issue it isn't even funny.

If Fair Trade isn't fair at all, then there shouldn't be any deal at all.
But if we can fix the deals to protect everyone, then everyone prospers.
The problem is that Corporations, "AMERICAN CORPORATIONS" have gotten so big that soon they will control every aspect of our government, and we'll have no legal recourse at all.

Is that what we want?
It isn't what i want, not at all.

Look, people can argue this point until Van Halen Reunites (equal to cows coming home) but History is proof that these deals only do one thing despite what has been said about them all along.
they make the Corporations richer while our workers get poorer, and they just fucking do not care.

If you have worked your whole damn life to get your head above water, this shit will pull you under one way or another.
The American Dream doesn't exist anymore, unless buying stock in Toyota and Chinese products is your gig.

This shit doesn't raise the incomes in the sweatshops, but it is damn sure aimed at making sure the American Worker ends up working in one.
It is the path to becoming a 3rd World Nation, and it is going to happen in record time at this point.

Tell ya what, let's give it the same amount of time as we did with NAFTA to see when this agreement starts showing us its effects on our way of life. Not the effects on the Corporations profit margins beacuse they'll be making more money, and sending more of it back across the border, i mean the number of people from today until, say, 3.5 years from now, and we see how many more people are out of work.

It's fucked up, but when is the last time Bush said anything about creating new jobs here at home?

He won't utter those words again while he's in office or he'll prove himself a hypocritical treasonous bastard when someone asks him how many jobs he's created overseas.

I've been a strict Conservative Republican all my damn life, so for me to turn against that at this point is very hard, but 100% justified.

We need an Administration that understands these issues and works to fix the inequities contained in them, and i don't give a flying fuck what party it is as long a someone stands up and takes action.

We simply can't afford these deals.
If eroding our own country is the price to be paid then how cheap something can be made is NOT the point because WE will be the ones that won't be able to afford the products.

Damn, how can we buy anything if we don't have jobs?

Now those are the damn facts, and they are being ignored.

But i got news for you, they won't be ignored for long by the voters.
Just pray that by the time the eys open up and see it for what it is that we won't have anything to say about it.
It may even be too late for that.

Those who voted for this all need to be kicked to the curb on their ass.

[Big Train]

Originally posted by blueturk
Here we go again. Where the hell are you coming from? I'm not talking about immigrant's work ethics, and you fucking know it. I'm talking about people who want to work, and find their jobs going somewhere else because of corporation-friendly policies like NAFTA, and now CAFTA.
As for skill development for "general workers" (what the hell does that mean...non-union?), the skill development are (?) there for people who lose jobs because of NAFTA, but in many cases there are no jobs for the skills they have learned. Any fucking policy that puts anybody out of work who wants to work ( even the "general" workers) is fucking ridiculous. Especially coming from a "president" who so blatantly courts the wealthy. Of course, I live in a state that has lost 25% of it's manufacturing jobs in two years, so maybe I'm out of touch with reality. Or at least your Dubyan, surrealistic reality.



Fuck man, how fucking direct do I need to be? WHY am I talking about immigrant work ethics? Because they are succeeding IN America, with substancially less advantage than you or I. The fact that they ARE doing it, proves it CAN be done, regardless of all this bitching about the government.

I'm not trying to be done on American workers, I'm really not. I'm just trying to find where the hallmarks of american workers are, the ingenuity, the adaptability. Where is it? We can prosper and will again once we have found ourselves once again.

Manufacturing as a giant piece of what we do in America is going away and is not coming back. Adapting those skills to more specialized businesses is where those "general" (Yes, non-union) workers will be going if they chose to remain in manufacturing. Anyone who wants to try to legislate that back to the way is used to be is wasting their time. The global labor market will never be anywhere near what Americans want, so therefore it will never be practical to manufacture as much here as we have in the past. Economics dictates all this, not governments.

[academic punk]

I actually agree with Train on this matter.

It was overall inevitable, and it will increase our domestic export capability, as well as provide cheaper goods for those of us who a fifty cent cheaper T-shirt really does make a difference.

That being said, this passed the House 217-215. That means if just ONE representative who voted for it had done otherwise, it would have been tied. There should be an adjustment to the pact b/c of the obvious reluctance towards it.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Big Train
Fuck man, how fucking direct do I need to be? WHY am I talking about immigrant work ethics? Because they are succeeding IN America, with substancially less advantage than you or I.

No, they aren't! Again, you're just latching onto an outdated clitch' of Vietnamese boat people and Korean shopowners...

What significant ethic group now comes off the boat too America without significant education and "makes it?" Bullshit!

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh


What significant ethic group now comes off the boat too America without significant education and "makes it?" Bullshit!

Mary Tyler Moore did. She spun around and around and threw her hat in the air in Rockefeller Ceneter and everything.

[Cathedral]

Some of you live in a bubble that only serves Corporate kool-aid, honestly.
Can i ask if you have even read the NAFTA and/or CAFTA agreement?

Oh, and these immigrants that are succeeding as you say, how much an hour do they make?
If you say they are succeeding based on how much better they do here than they can in their own country then yes, they are succeeding.
But compared to what the average American makes an hour, they most certainly are not.

As for adapting, I was forced to adapt because hey, I had no fucking job because IT WENT TO FUCKING MEXICO!

It was all about profits, not ethics.
If you want to talk ethics then explain to me how ethical it is for our companies to be allowed by law to cut the throats of the very people who built this country?
It wasn't the Corporations that built this country, it was the worker who clocked in and out of those Corporations that built this country, the same worker that woke up and found out that because "it's cheaper to go overseas" their employer basically said, "Thanks for all you years of dedication, but Fuck You."

Well, I hope all the money you have been able to save is enough to last a lifetime because before long the small business owner will go bankrupt when the rest of the population can't afford their services anymore.

These agreements are failures for everyone who isn't a fat ass sitting behind a desk wondering what color Porsche he wants to buy, then passes by the jobless Americans he put out of work on his way to his Big Corporate Office.

Here's a little for instance for ya.
The Kustom gear we used to make sold for the same price in the store after NAFTA as it did before NAFTA.
The only person who reaped any benefit from the reduction in production costs was Kustom, (The Corporation).
And what's funny about that is that those products still to this day have Cincinnati Ohio as it's place of manufacture stamped on them.

Did the worker who built it see any benefit?
If you call losing that job in return a benefit, then i guess the "Fair Trade" deals you all support worked just fine.

And at this moment, Bush signs the CAFTA agreement into law........pathetic.

[academic punk]

Cath -

You know I hold your posts and opinions in the highest esteem here. Moreso than anyone else in fact.

But you discuss "ethics". And businesses do have an obligatin to be ethical and loyal to the employees who built their businesses, absolutely. But overall businesses are designed to make profits, first and foremost. The ethics are secondary.

My grandfather was a manufacturer of garm,ent novelties - zippers, buttons, hangers, velcro,trim, etc. At his businesses peak (when parachute pants were the rage, actually!), he employed 200 people and manufatured everything IN HOUSE - he was New Yorks exclusive manufacturer of YKK.

By '95 he was only doing imports and was not seeing much in the way of profit (if at all, it was all he could do to keep the business afloat - b/c the manufacturing of the garments had all gone overseas). By '02 the business was closed completely.

Idealistically, I wish the business still existed - fuck, I would have even considered going into it. But it's not. These agreements ACCEPT the trend that has already occurred, and stps trying to pretend otherwise. I think - I hope - overall this pact will help make life more affordable for all of us.

[Cathedral]

I'm glad you made that point, ap.
Don't get the impression that i don't support a fair trade agreement, I do because I understand the process and it is good for all countries to engage in fair trade with everyone.

My beef is with how these two particular agreements have been written and for who they were dictated by.

I bought into the idea of NAFTA as it was sold, but these things are not what was sold to you or I, man.

There were little to no protections installed in NAFTA for the workers, and there were even less installed in CAFTA for the workers.

It has so very little to do with the talking points in most of this thread.

And thanks for the props, bro.
In most issues i have to do homework, but this one hits too close to home for me, and more Americans than i even realized understand all too well the ramifications.
It's not all about trade, and all i want is the agreements to have all the bullshit taken out of them that ultimately hands control of our country over to a Corporation that is owned by foreigners.

The bottom line is that our Independance as a Nations is being sold out in the name of profits for the rich, more poverty for the poor.

[Cathedral]

Just in, Manufacturing Jobs are down 10% in the last 44 month's.
This year alone, so far, 64,000 Manufacturing Jobs have been lost.

Out of the 1.3 Million new jobs created, they are lower wage jobs in the food service and bar industry.
That accounts for 1/4% of the jobs total.

Historically, Manufacturing has been the high gain field for our economy which has had no gain, it's flat and those are the higher paying jobs at that, that are showing loss.

Bring on CAFTA, let's go ahead and run the stake the rest of the way through our own hearts.

You had better make investments for you kids, and i mean substantial investments or they will be the biggest losers in all of these unfair trade deals.

"You want fries with that?" used to be a joke, but for our kids it will be their reality.

[blueturk]

It's all the unions fault! American's are a bunch of lazy motherfuckers! It's an ownership society! Immigrants work like hell! Americans want to stay at one job for an extended period! They're outmoded! Bush is always right!

"Because the — all which is on the table begins to address the big cost drivers. For example, how benefits are calculate, for example, is on the table; whether or not benefits rise based upon wage increases or price increases. There's a series of parts of the formula that are being considered. And when you couple that, those different cost drivers, affecting those — changing those with personal accounts, the idea is to get what has been promised more likely to be — or closer delivered to what has been promised. Does that make any sense to you? It's kind of muddled. Look, there's a series of things that cause the — like, for example, benefits are calculated based upon the increase of wages, as opposed to the increase of prices. Some have suggested that we calculate — the benefits will rise based upon inflation, as opposed to wage increases. There is a reform that would help solve the red if that were put into effect. In other words, how fast benefits grow, how fast the promised benefits grow, if those — if that growth is affected, it will help on the red." —George W. Bush, explaining his plan to save Social Security, Tampa, Fla., Feb. 4, 2005

You work three jobs? … Uniquely American, isn't it? I mean, that is fantastic that you're doing that." —George W. Bush, to a divorced mother of three, Omaha, Nebraska, Feb. 4, 2005

[mewisemagic]

Originally posted by Big Train
When you say provisions, like what? How do you overcome the cold hard facts? Any product that we make in America and try to sell elsewhere is going to be 3-5x as expensive as one they have made? Who do you sell that to? Second, if you give HUGE tax breaks (which you would have to to offset costs), the community with the factory makes very little from the companies presence outside of taxed worker salaries. You end up still at square one.

Immigration has little to do with NAFTA and a lot to do with lax rules and opportunity . Yes, the opportunity there is slim to none. If they did make as much as American workers and such, yea Americans should be pissed. But they don't. But they come here because they can. If China was next door, they would be flocking here too. So what? Should they be making 40k with benefits? Is that what you mean by fair and equitable?

Americans are lazy. A lot of them are looking to get what their WWII parents told them "Get a good job with security and benefits". A sound theory indeed. However, an outmoded one. We are in a different time and place, a place where you will have many careers over your life. A place where "renting" your skills becomes the norm, not working as an employee. Where owning your own business is the most secure way to do things. Its an ownership society. It has been for quite some time. Americans don't want to change with the world, but want to stubbornly cling onto the way "my daddy did it". It's a mistake and it's a shame for future generations. Where you are lost your way is when you quit agreeing with your "Daddy"His society was much better than this piece of shit we live in today,,,If you are with Nafta And Cafta,Then you my friend are one more reason our country is going to hell in a handbasket!

[blueturk]

Originally posted by mewisemagic
Where you are lost your way is when you quit agreeing with your "Daddy"His society was much better than this piece of shit we live in today,,,If you are with Nafta And Cafta,Then you my friend are one more reason our country is going to hell in a handbasket!

Big Train is far too smart to listen to his Daddy. Big Train is a superior life form who is trying to guide us with his infinite wisdom, because we don't have a fucking clue. Just ask him, I'm sure he'll be glad to tell you all about it.

"So community colleges are accessible, they're available, they're affordable, and their curriculums don't get stuck. In other words, if there's a need for a certain kind of worker, I presume your curriculums evolved over time." —George W. Bush, Niceville, Fla., Aug. 10, 2004

[Big Train]

Blue turk is a dumb fuck who can't read a post and understand what it says.

My points, which I will now give you in a simple, easy to read bulletted form.



1. Manufacturing, with or without these agreements, is a thing of the past in the American economy, at least on a macro scale.

2. Unions are failing american workers by failing to support them in anything other than contract negotitions that are becoming more futile by the round.

3. American workers are failing to heed the message and work towards new skills and industries.

For the record, I took a piece of advice from my father decades ago. "Work with your head, not your back". At this point in my life, I am VERY thankful he told me that.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by Big Train
Blue turk is a dumb fuck who can't read a post and understand what it says.

My points, which I will now give you in a simple, easy to read bulletted form.



1. Manufacturing, with or without these agreements, is a thing of the past in the American economy, at least on a macro scale.

2. Unions are failing american workers by failing to support them in anything other than contract negotitions that are becoming more futile by the round.

3. American workers are failing to heed the message and work towards new skills and industries.

For the record, I took a piece of advice from my father decades ago. "Work with your head, not your back". At this point in my life, I am VERY thankful he told me that.

Whether or not I'm a dumb fuck is mostly a matter of opinion. Frankly, I just think based on some of your remarks that you find the average working man to be a second-class citizen. If I don't know how to read or understand your posts, it's probably because of the way your logic jumps around.

[Big Train]

I respond to different things and different people. Perhaps I come off a certain way and whatever, I accept that.

I don't have any contempt for the working man at all. Again, like I said previously, I'm just wondering where the classic America adaptibility and ingenuity is. I know it is in there and I know it is possible (which is why I bring up immigrants, I see them doing it every day). Second class, no way my friend, that is where I come from. I just want to see the fire again, regardless of government input.

[Angel]

No nation will sign onto any free trade agreements once they learn that the USA doesn't follow the rules:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/softwood_lumber/

A NAFTA extraordinary challenge committee rejected U.S. allegations that an earlier ruling in support of Canada's position violated NAFTA rules.

"We are extremely pleased that the ECC dismissed the claims of the United States," said International Trade Minister Jim Peterson.

"This is a binding decision that clearly eliminates the basis for U.S.-imposed duties on Canadian softwood lumber. We fully expect the United States to abide by this ruling, stop collecting duties and refund the duties collected over the past three years," he said.

Negotiations between Canada and the U.S. are expected to resume next week.

While there have been suggestions that the ruling could bring the softwood dispute to an end after more than four years, the issue may not be resolved. The United States could still file legal challenges outside of NAFTA.

The United States has been collecting duties on Canadian softwood lumber since May 2002, after American lumber producers accused Ottawa of subsidizing lumber exports.