Find your own ammo against bible waving nutjobs!

[kentuckyklira]

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/

There´s lots of ridiculous stuff to be found in the bible, all you have to do is look!:D

[BigBadBrian]

I don't believe this was ever intended to be a religious column per se.

I am not Jewish and don't persecute those of that faith.

I don't believe anyone else here that posts does that either.

I am not Muslim and don't persecute anyone of that faith.

I don't believe anyone else here that posts does that either.

FORD, I believe you should close this thread. It's your call, however.

:) :) :) :) :)

[Hardrock69]

Why?

Religion is just a valid subject as Republican Idiocy (and they tend to go hand in hand in many cases).

[aesop]

You're a total idiot...



PS--- I like your tatoo...

[Hardrock69]

Thanks dumbass.

Nobody on this board has ever seen my tattoo.

:rolleyes:

[aesop]

It's very gay, nontheless... Trust me.

[FORD]

While I take great exception to the sickening things that have been done in the name of religion, both historically, and by current entities such as Al Qaeda, the BCE , and the Likud of Israel, I don't believe that justifies the wholesale ridicule of anyone's religious belief systems.

Most religions on this planet, including Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, are religions of peace as taught by their original founders, and have been manipulated by evil individuals such as the Crusaders and the modern day hypocrites previously mentioned.

The policy of the Front Line is tolerance for belief systems. That doesn't mean you have to agree with someone's interpretation of religion or with someone else's lack of beliefs. Just don't need the wholesale bashing.

As for biblegateway.com, I consider the site a great resource and use it all the time. I have several Bibles in my bookcase, but only so much room on the desk, ya know. It's much easier to be able to pull up a scripture in a tabbed browser window.

Now all this being said, I'm going to leave this thread open for now, and hope some constructive discussion comes out of it.

[aesop]

ADULTERY: "Fire in the Bosom"
The seventh of the ten commandments ("Thou shalt not commit adultery" [Ex. 20:15, Deut. 5:18]) does not refer to adultery as generally thought of today. In the Old Testament a married man, but not a married woman, could have sex outside of marriage and not be an adulterer. Under the Hebrew patriarchal system, a man commits adultery only if the sex is with another man's wife or virginal betrothed--in effect a property crime analogous, as Judith Romney Wegner puts it, to stealing the other man's cow. (On women as property, see GENDER.)
The penalty for adultery is death for both parties (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22). In the case of a betrothed virgin, she is considered guilty of consent, and is therefore to die with the man, if the incident occurred in the city and she did not scream for help (Deut. 22:23-27).

The book of Numbers (5:12-31) provides for a trial by ordeal in cases where a man suspects his wife of adultery but has no proof. The man, being moved by a "spirit of jealousy," shall bring his wife and a "jealousy offering" to the priest, who will mix holy water with dust from the temple floor and make the woman drink it. If she has "lain with" no man but her husband, this "bitter water" will not cause "the curse," but if she is guilty of adultery, "her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot," and she will be "a curse among her people." (The Hebrew in this passage is too obscure to be interpreted with confidence [Sakenfeld, Levine]. It has been variously interpreted as referring, in the case of guilt, to miscarriage [Snaith], a prolapsed uterus [Meeks], inability to become pregnant, and abdominal-type pains [Levine].)

Adultery is often used in the Old Testament as a metaphor for the unfaithfulness toward God of the people of Israel and Judah, who "go a-whoring after other gods" (Judg. 2:17). God speaks in Jer. 3:8 of divorcing Israel for her adultery, then "her treacherous sister Judah . . . played the harlot also." The prophet Hosea deliberately marries an adulteress to dramatize God's dilemma with the backsliding children of Israel.

The adultery metaphor takes its most graphic form in Ezekiel 23, describing in detail the allegorical promiscuity of the sisters Oholah and Oholibah, adulterous wives of Yahweh.

The book of Proverbs extols the wisdom of avoiding adulterous situations. "Can a man take fire in his bosom," it asks, "and his clothes not be burned?" (Adultery "is a fire," says Job [31:12], "that consumeth to destruction.") The commandment against adultery, we are told in Proverbs, helps "keep thee from the evil woman." The book describes "a young man devoid of understanding" who is lured to the house of "a woman with the attire of an harlot." Catching him and kissing him, she says, "I have decked my bed . . . with fine linen of Egypt . . . Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning," for "(my husband) is not at home." But though "stolen waters are sweet," says Proverbs, "he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife . . . lacketh understanding," and the house of the adulteress "is the way to hell" (6:23-32, 7:4-27).

In two biblical cases, resisting adulterous advances leads to false accusations. In Genesis, Joseph is accused by Potiphar's wife, herself the aggressor, of making sexual advances, and is sent to prison (see JOSEPH AND POTIPHAR'S WIFE). In the Apocrypha, Susanna, the wife of Joakim, is falsely accused of adultery by two elders when she resists their attempt to seduce her (see SUSANNA AND THE ELDERS). Joseph prospers despite the injustice, and the young hero Daniel saves the day for Susanna.

Not only is the seventh commandment reaffirmed in the New Testament (Matt. 19:18, Luke 18:20, Rom. 13:9, James 2:11), but adultery is broadened to include even thinking about committing it. "Whoever looks at a woman with lust," says Jesus Christ in Matt. 5:28, "has committed adultery with her already in his heart." Jesus also states that adultery includes remarriage after divorce (Matt. 19:9, Luke 16:18).

Still, one of the Bible's best-known passages speaks of forgiveness for adultery (as for all sin), not punishment. Scribes and Pharisees bring to Jesus "a woman taken in adultery, in the very act" (John 8:3-11). They remind him that an adulteress should be stoned, "but what do you say?"

"Let him who is without sin among you," replies Jesus, "cast the first stone." The accusers leave one by one, leaving none to condemn her. "Neither do I condemn you," Jesus tells the adulteress. "Go, and sin no more."

Orazio de Ferrari, Christ and the Adulteress / McMullen Museum of Art

________________

Discuss...

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by FORD
While I take great exception to the sickening things that have been done in the name of religion, both historically, and by current entities such as Al Qaeda, the BCE , and the Likud of Israel, I don't believe that justifies the wholesale ridicule of anyone's religious belief systems.

Most religions on this planet, including Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, are religions of peace as taught by their original founders, and have been manipulated by evil individuals such as the Crusaders and the modern day hypocrites previously mentioned.

The policy of the Front Line is tolerance for belief systems. That doesn't mean you have to agree with someone's interpretation of religion or with someone else's lack of beliefs. Just don't need the wholesale bashing.

As for biblegateway.com, I consider the site a great resource and use it all the time. I have several Bibles in my bookcase, but only so much room on the desk, ya know. It's much easier to be able to pull up a scripture in a tabbed browser window.

Now all this being said, I'm going to leave this thread open for now, and hope some constructive discussion comes out of it.

Good call!

People use passages from the Bible, especially the Old Testament, to make their often radical points all the time. biblegateway.com is great to counter such arguments as it helps find quotes that either back an opposite opinion or show how out of date a vast part of the contents of the part of the Bible quoted are.

[Seshmeister]

What's with all the cock?:)



General scriptures concerning'cock' (Matthew 26:34,74,75; Mark 13:35;14:30,68,72)

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
What's with all the cock?:)

[b]


You mean the little German kids? Ask the starter of this thread.

http://www.eteachers.com.au/ICT_samples/Images/youth.jpg

[ashstralia]

Originally posted by FORD
While I take great exception to the sickening things that have been done in the name of religion, both historically, and by current entities such as Al Qaeda, the BCE , and the Likud of Israel, I don't believe that justifies the wholesale ridicule of anyone's religious belief systems.




yeah, but the dumb kraut's an atheist!

at least he could have the balls to be a monotheist.

or a polynonomicroegotist.

and his sad cock-rock sucks.

:)

[ashstralia]

wow, i made a new word;

'polynonomicroegotist'.

[Nickdfresh]

And some can find the meaning and good in the Bible and seperate it from the retarded spam placed in there by the fools of mankind.

The Jefferson Bible

The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth
Extracted Textually from the Gospels

Compiled by Thomas Jefferson

Edited by Eyler Robert Coates, Sr.

. . . Thomas Jefferson believed that the ethical system of Jesus was the finest the world has ever seen. In compiling what has come to be called "The Jefferson Bible," he sought to separate those ethical teachings from the religious dogma and other supernatural elements that are intermixed in the account provided by the four Gospels. He presented these teachings, along with the essential events of the life of Jesus, in one continuous narrative.

This presentation of The Jefferson Bible offers the text as selected and arranged by Jefferson in two separate editions: one edition uses a revised King James Version of the biblical texts, corrected in accordance with the findings of modern scholarship; the second edition uses the original unrevised KJV. The actual verses of the Bible used for both editions are those chosen by Jefferson. Visitors should find the revised KJV text much easier to read and understand. Those seeking the precise English version Mr. Jefferson used when making his compilation can click on "Unrevised KJV text."

Link (http://www.angelfire.com/co/JeffersonBible/)

[Pastor Bruce S.]

Being a Pastor, I had to interject myself when the defamation of the Bible, the book of God, is set forth.

Concerning the Old and New Tetstament. The Old Testament and the Commandments are not rules to gain your salvation. It is your faith in Jesus Christ that determines your eternal life. It's through his merits and not our own works that gains us entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. The Old Testament is great for examples in character studies and is a prophetic book as far as the coming of our Savior.

Most Bible believing churches study the gospel in the New Testament. It chronicles the life of Jesus. And it's Jesus that we have as an example on how to treat and love each other. The text in the New Testament is more of a guideline on how to live as people. How to live righteous with dignity, conviction, and love.

The Bible is the word of God and is 100% accurate as far as prophecy is concerned. We are now living in the end times or last days. With your bitterness torwards the word of God, the enemy has a foothold on you. I'll pray for you and you should pray. Together we can help you see the light and you will receive Christ in your heart. Keep the faith.

Pastor Bruce Switzer
Living Way Church

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Pastor Bruce S.
The Bible is the word of God and is 100% accurate as far as prophecy is concerned.

Cool it's about time we had an Army chaplain...:)

So what you're saying is the bible should only be regarded as being 100% accurate in areas that cannot be objectively disproved because they haven't happened yet?

We've to have total faith in these prophecies despite the obvious errors made by primative peoples writing the bible vis a vis the Creation, Noah's ark, God the destroyer etc etc?

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Pastor Bruce S.]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Cool it's about time we had an Army chaplain...:)

So what you're saying is the bible should only be regarded as being 100% accurate in areas that cannot be objectively disproved because they haven't happened yet?

We've to have total faith in these prophecies despite the obvious errors made by primative peoples writing the bible vis a vis the Creation, Noah's ark, God the destroyer etc etc?

Cheers!:gulp:
Pastor Bruce is tickled with delight that you think this old preacher is cool. Many thanks and God Bless.

Well, I stand corrected about the accuracy rate of the Good Book. I meant to say so far it's been 100% accurate. The current propheices are coming to fruition as we speak. And as far as future prpphecy. Do you want to challenge God?

I sense resentment in you. Bitterness entraps you. Anger eats away at you. Learn to forgive and open your heart.

I'm pullin for ya!

Pastor Bruce

[kentuckyklira]

Dear pastor Bruce S.

Ave Satanas!

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Pastor Bruce S.
Do you want to challenge God?


I want to challenge your perception of God.

The bible patently wasn't written by an all powerful supernatural force or she wouldn't have put so many errors of inconsistencey in it.

Given that for example software writers make on average 150 mistakes per 1000 lines of code. After modern error checking we can get this down to 5.

There are 30 000 verses in the bible so it makes sense that there are at least 150 errors in there but more likely 20 times that.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Pastor Bruce S.]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
I want to challenge your perception of God.

The bible patently wasn't written by an all powerful supernatural force or she wouldn't have put so many errors of inconsistencey in it.

Given that for example software writers make on average 150 mistakes per 1000 lines of code. After modern error checking we can get this down to 5.

There are 30 000 verses in the bible so it makes sense that there are at least 150 errors in there but more likely 20 times that.

Cheers!

:gulp:
You will habe to excuse me as my blood is boiling as I was discussing the evil-doers of this world. Believe me. I know where you are coming from as far as a perception of God is concerned. I have to gather my thoughts and collect some reference materials. I am not going to doubt your line of questiong for it is well thought out. However, I would like for you to hear my personal testimony and how I developed a relationship with God. Faith is a relationship and not a religion.

You know what? You could probably beat me in a debate on the validity of the Bible. I could gather some members of our fellowship and you guys could have a insightful discussion but the problem with that is that these debates get heated and the topic is no longer about faith but more about wiinning the debate.

As a Christian, it is great that you find in accuracies in the Bible. It is good that you pose challenging questions. And it is excellent that you have doubt. You are not a robot. God wants you to love. And Love is a choice.

You're a tough one.

Pastor Bruce S.

[FORD]

This guy's about as "Christian" as the Chimp. Read his shit in the other threads.

Just another mindless Katyshit alias, and I'm evicting his ass before he can unpack a suitcase.

[Seshmeister]

He's not listed on that church's website.

Then again maybe it's one of those churches where anyoone can call themselves pastor.

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Seshmeister

There are 30 000 verses in the bible so it makes sense that there are at least 150 errors in there but more likely 20 times that.


why sesh, i'm surprised you didn't think there were 200 times rather than 20 times the errors...;)

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Pastor Bruce S.
Being a Pastor, I had to interject myself when the defamation of the Bible, the book of God, is set forth.

Concerning the Old and New Tetstament. The Old Testament and the Commandments are not rules to gain your salvation. It is your faith in Jesus Christ that determines your eternal life. It's through his merits and not our own works that gains us entrance into the Kingdom of Heaven. The Old Testament is great for examples in character studies and is a prophetic book as far as the coming of our Savior.

Most Bible believing churches study the gospel in the New Testament. It chronicles the life of Jesus. And it's Jesus that we have as an example on how to treat and love each other. The text in the New Testament is more of a guideline on how to live as people. How to live righteous with dignity, conviction, and love.

The Bible is the word of God and is 100% accurate as far as prophecy is concerned. We are now living in the end times or last days. With your bitterness torwards the word of God, the enemy has a foothold on you. I'll pray for you and you should pray. Together we can help you see the light and you will receive Christ in your heart. Keep the faith.

Pastor Bruce Switzer
Living Way Church

Bruce, could you please explain your point on how it isn't through our works that we earn a place in the kingdom of God?
Jesus died for our sins so that we would be saved, and i understand it is a choice. but just because we have faith doesn't guarentee us anything, we are judged by our works in the book of life.

You can have all the faith in the world, but if the faithful just sit on their butt's and do nothing to confront the evil that has spread throughout the land then we haven't done what we are supposed to do.

Then i would like you to explain and prove the Rapture theory because that message isn't in the bible unless you take certain scriptures out of context.

The seminaries all across the globe teach about this but it has no foundation in the word and has only been adopted into the faith system since shortly after it's conception in the 1800's.

Do you know the origin of the Rapture theory?
And if it is of God, then why has it always been referred to as a theory?
Is not God absolute?
Is he not the beginning the middle and the end?
Is he not the same yesterday, today and tomorrow?

I have been at battle with my own faith for a long time now, but i cannot find any church that preaches or teaches the truth as it was written.
My studies are proving to me that today's church is nothing more than a fraud that is focused on money rather than salvation.

Since when did God only accept a check as an offering?

I'd like your take on these issues if you would be so kind.

[Seshmeister]

In the meantime the guy has posted messages of hate in other threads.

I had hoped we might have a learned preacher around the board because I do have some genuine questions and points of debate.

We're left with two possibilities.

a) The guy is a pastor who knows very little about scripture. He can't deal with even the most basic of theological questions yet is meant to help and lead people through the bible. At the same time he also has completely missed the whole basis of the teachings of Jesus. It's amazing that someone that has supposedly dedicated his life to a religion knows nothing about it.

It's actually not uncommon though.


b) He's a troll pretending to be who he is for a joke.


Cheers!

:gulp:

[Cathedral]

Yeah, the "blood boiling" part was way off track for a preacher.

Anger is of the devil.

But you know what, Sesh. I have put these same questions and more to real Pastors and the response was that i was lost and need to pray.

Um, ok, thanks for the judgement there Mr. Man of God, now answer the questions before i go and pray, k?

[Vanstonica]

As a member of, what seems to be, an ever-dwindling number of Christians here at the Army, I'd like a chance to voice my opinion.

I think that a lot of Christians have never escaped from the "Sunday School" mentality. Growing up in the church, we heard all of the stories about Jesus feeding the 500, Moses parting the Red Sea, ect.

As I've grown up (and wised up), I still believe in the Bible teachings, but the mistake that a lot of Christians make is that they don't take into consideration the fact that the documents are thousands of years old. Some of what was written then just isn't as relevant now.

For example, I respect the fact that some chruches don't allow women in the pulpit: Their reasoning is that the Bible doesn't endorse it. 2000 years ago, women weren't allowed the same educational opportunities as men; Their knowledge of the scriptures wasn't as thorough, by and large, as the men of the time. That's certainly something that has changed. Women, however, still cannot be a deacon or a pastor of a Southern Baptist Church. I've never looked at is as a religious overtone, as much as a tradition that some churches still follow.

To sum it up: I accept the bible as the word of God. I believe that you really can enrich your life by living by the entire set of teachings contained in the documents. Where people get in trouble is that they take one or two non-related statements out of the bible and twist them around to suit whatever purpose they so happen to desire for it to suit at that time....it happens all of the time in every religion.

[Seshmeister]

Fair enough.

As you say some people flit around the bible. Need something to justify aggression or our predjudices, just pop into the Old Testament and you can get anything you need to do anything to anyone.

It's so fucked up and typically human that some people effectively end up saying 'If you don't agree with me that god is love and his son said everyone should love and forgive, I'm gonna kick your fucking face in.'

Need some comfort - hey it's New Testament Jesus time.

The two things are entirely incongrous as any sort of moral framework to living a life never mind the supernatural stuff.

I accept that there are plenty of really nice Christians around.

I'm just not convinced that there are many more good guys or less bad guys than in any other group of people which kind of defeats the whole process. Apart from for the religious money makers and 'god professionals' of course.

I object to the taboos put on expressing these misgivings. If I say the Muslim religion or the bible appears to be shit then suddenly I'm a racist or offensive or blaspheming. How come that doesn't cut both ways if you don't believe?

My other major problem is that the more I look at the Bible the more it seems to fall apart and it's the only thing that Christianity is based on.

Christianity seems to be more just a cultural tradition. People can put the whole death thing in a little mental box and not worry about it because they assume someone else, i.e. the church has worked everything out for them. If they do their bit and turn up once a week, sing a song, and throw in some money all is well.

The terrible problem is that once you go behind the Wizard of Oz curtain and ask the guys looking after things e.g our good pastor, you find out that they know little more or less than the rest of us about anything.

That's when they play the faith/prayer cards.

I'm not here to kick away peoples mental crutches I'm just trying to find out if anyone has any better answers.

Peace and cheers!

:gulp:

[Vanstonica]

Originally posted by Seshmeister


I'm just not convinced that there are many more good guys or less bad guys than in any other group of people which kind of defeats the whole process. Apart from the religous money makers of course.

I object to the taboos put on expressing these misgivings. If I say the Muslim religion or the bible appears to be shit then suddenly I'm a racist or offensive or blaspheming. How come that doesn't cut both ways if you don't believe?

My other major problem is that the more I look at the Bible the more it seems to fall apart and it's the only thing that Christianity is based on.

Christianity seems to be more just a cultural tradition. People can put the whole death thing in a little mental box and not worry about it because they assume someone else, i.e. the church has worked everything out for them. If they do their bit and turn up once a week, sing a song, and throw in some money all is well.

:gulp:


Very good point, Sesh. I'm not one to force my religion on others. I've always felt that each person's religion is unique to them, and to be honest, I don't try and explain why I believe what I do to others, just so I don't come across as someone who looks down on somebody else because of a different belief system.

Here's the long and short as to why I'm a Christian: It has given me a peace that nothing else I have tried has done for me. I can't explain it in a spritual sense.

It sickens me when I turn on the TV and some serial killer or football player who got vusted with a hooker claims to have "found God", and expect all to be forgiven. It's even worse when people bomb abortion clinics and those who don't share the same views they do, and claim they are doing "God's work".

[Ally_Kat]

I hate to break the intelligent convo with a stupid question, but what is "the Rapture theory"? I heard about it when I was visiting the boyfriend's Church and doing the Bible study portion of the service and they started talking about it and what they believe heaven is like and all that, but I wasn't in a Catholic friendly area and I was too afraid to bring it up.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
I hate to break the intelligent convo with a stupid question, but what is "the Rapture theory"? I heard about it when I was visiting the boyfriend's Church and doing the Bible study portion of the service and they started talking about it and what they believe heaven is like and all that, but I wasn't in a Catholic friendly area and I was too afraid to bring it up.

It's also known as Pre-Tribulation Theology. The idea here is that JC calls up all his people off the planet, and THEN all Hell breaks loose (literally) on Earth, with Satan & the Antichrist given free reign over the sinners who remain on the planet.

See the "Left Behind" books/movies for a depiction of this theology.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Pastor Bruce S.
Being a Pastor, I had to interject myself when the defamation of the Bible, the book of God, is set forth.

Why not?

[FORD]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
Why not?

Why, "because the only good Arab/Jew/Ni**er/Spic/Homosexual is a dead one" that's why.

I believe that was the "sermon" that our fake pastor was preaching during his short stay at the Church of Roth.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
See the "Left Behind" books/movies for a depiction of this theology.

"Left Behind" is a poor example to believe in, one that this Christian, and many others, don't espouse.

Ally, Google up "Eschatology" and look under the following perspectives if you want to know more....alot more:

Historical Premillennialism

Amillennialism

Postmillennialism

Dispensational Premillenialism

[FORD]

I didn't say I believed the Left Behind books. I just said they were an example of a pre-trib scenario.

Actually the Reagan worshipping Baptist church I grew up in believed that teaching, so I leaned that way myself for a while.

Obviously it can't be true though, because the Antichrist is in power, and I'm still here :(

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
I didn't say I believed the Left Behind books. I just said they were an example of a pre-trib scenario.



Fair enough. That you didn't.

:gulp:

[GAR]

Originally posted by Pastor Bruce S.
The text in the New Testament is more of a guideline on how to live as people. How to live righteous with dignity, conviction, and love.

The Bible is the word of God and is 100% accurate as far as prophecy is concerned.

Pastor Bruce Switzer
Living Way Church

Pray for me, Pastor Bruce, that my minimal pigs-brain's understanding be increased regarding the Immaculate Conception passage not being the satutory rape it is generally written out to be.

The girl Mary, was 15 years old.

She was "overshadowed" and soon after, found to be "with child".

She was promised in marriage a virgin, yet by the time wedding vows went down she'd already been inseminated by some other body.

Thanks, Pastor Bruce! Thanks alot..

[GAR]

I think the best way to beat a bible-waving nutjob is to use the bible itself.

[rustoffa]

This is dangerous ground, and I for 1, don't like playin' hopscotch on it.

I will tell you how to beat back Jehova's witnesses....there's tons of weighs, I'll focus on the personal favorlite.

The first thing you do when you answer the door is open it slowly....I mean like fucking centimeters per second.

Did I mention having a box of Bisquick in one hand? You need that too. So not only is the box of bisquick in your hand.....that hand is shaking. Then you go, "Thank God!.....I'm glad you rang the doorbell, my life er, I mean cake was about to burn!". This is pure fucking distraction....start a convo about the recipe for lemonade you got out of the BOOK OF THELEMA. Those right to censor dipshits will look like Gene Wilder while the better half is SLASHING THE FUCK out of bike tires.

This may seem stereotypical or whatever, but I've seen the fucking shit work.

This old lady down the road called the D.O.T. and claimed the fuckers had let her dogs out of her backyard....then tried to call 'em into the street as cars came by.

Pure fucking genius....the bitch that lives beside her said the cops were there in no time.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by FORD
It's also known as Pre-Tribulation Theology. The idea here is that JC calls up all his people off the planet, and THEN all Hell breaks loose (literally) on Earth, with Satan & the Antichrist given free reign over the sinners who remain on the planet.

See the "Left Behind" books/movies for a depiction of this theology.

It's a church money maker for sure. Get the cash in early in case people put it off or end up not giving us something in the will.

You need to do it now in case the rapture happens before you die.

LOL!

It's amazing to see otherwise intelligent people falling for such an obvious ploy.

The end of the world is always nigh...:)

You know why?

Ego!

You can't cope with the fact that you are a dot on a dot on a rock in a tiny miniscule flash of time.

Here are some other people that had that problem...


53 AD
Even before all the books of the Bible were written, there was talk that Christ's return had already taken place. The Thessalonians panicked on Paul when they heard a rumor that the day of the Lord was at hand, and they had missed the rapture.

500
A Roman priest living in the second century predicted Christ would return in 500 AD, based on the dimensions of Noah's ark.

1000
This year goes down as one of the most heightened periods of hysteria over the return of Christ. All members of society seemed affected by the prediction that Jesus was coming back at the start of the new millennium. None of the events required by the Bible were transpiring at that time; the magic of the number 1000 was the sole reason for the expectation. During concluding months of 999 AD, everyone was on his best behavior; worldly goods were sold and given to the poor; swarms of pilgrims headed east to meet the Lord at Jerusalem; buildings went unrepaired; crops were left unplanted; and criminals were set free from jails. When the year 999 AD turned into 1000 AD, nothing happened.

1033
This year was cited as the beginning of the millennium because it marked 1,000 years since Christ's crucifixion.

1186
The "Letter of Toledo" warned everyone to hide in the caves and mountains. The world was reportedly to be destroyed with only a few spared.

1420
The Taborites of Czechoslovakia predicted every city would be annihilated by fire. Only five mountain strongholds would be saved.

1524-1526
Muntzer, a leader of German peasants, announced that the return of Christ was near. After Muntzer and his men destroyed the high and mighty, the Lord would supposedly return. This belief led to an uneven battle against government troops. He was strategically outnumbered. Muntzer claimed to have had a vision from God in which the Lord promised that He would catch the cannonballs of the enemy in the sleeves of His cloak. The prediction within the vision turned out to be false when Muntzer and his followers were mowed down by cannon fire.

1534
A repeat of the Muntzer affair occurred a few years later. This time, Jan Matthys took over the city of Munster. The city was to be the only one spared from destruction. The inhabitants of Munster, chased out by Matthys and his men, regrouped and lay siege to the city. Within a year, everyone in the city was dead.

1650-1660
The Fifth Monarchy Men looked for Jesus to establish a theocracy. They took up arms and tried to seize England by force. The movement died when the British monarchy was restored in 1660.

1666
For the citizens of London, 1666 was not a banner year. A bubonic plague outbreak killed 100,000 and the Great Fire of London struck the same year. The world seemed at an end to most Londoners. The fact that the year ended with the Beast's number�666--didn't help matters.

1809
Mary Bateman, who specialized in fortune telling, had a magic chicken that laid eggs with end-time messages on them. One message said that Christ was coming. The uproar she created ended when an unannounced visitor caught her forcing an egg into the hen's oviduct. Mary later was hanged for poisoning a wealthy client. History does not record whether the offended chicken attended the hanging.

1814
Spiritualist Joanna Southcott made the startling claim that she, by virgin birth, would produce the second Jesus Christ. Her abdomen began to swell and so did the crowds of people around her. The time for the birth came and passed; she died soon after. An autopsy revealed she had experienced a false pregnancy.

1836
John Wesley wrote that "the time, times and half a time" of Revelation 12:14 were 1058�1836, "when Christ should come" (A. M. Morris, The Prophecies Unveiled, p. 361).

1843-1844
William Miller was the founder of an end-times movement that was so prominent it received its own name, Millerism. From his studies of the Bible, Miller determined that the second coming would happen sometime between 1843-1844. A spectacular meteor shower in 1833 gave the movement a good push forward. The buildup of anticipation continued until March 21, 1844, when Miller's one-year timetable ran out. Some followers set another date--Oct 22, 1844. This too failed, collapsing the movement. One follower described the days after the failed predictions: "The world made merry over the old Prophet's predicament. The taunts and jeers of the 'scoffers' were well-nigh unbearable."

1859
Rev. Thomas Parker, a Massachusetts minister, looked for the millennium to start about 1859.

1881
Someone called Mother Shipton had, 400 years earlier, claimed that the world would end in 1881. A controversy hangs over the Shipton writings as to whether or not publishers doctored the text. If the date was wrong, should it matter anyway?

1910
The revisit of Halley's comet was, for many, an indication of the Lord's second coming. The earth actually passed through the gaseous tail of the comet. One enterprising man sold comet pills to people for protection against the effects of the toxic gases.

1914
Charles Russell, after being exposed to the teachings of William Miller, founded his own organization that evolved into the Jehovah's Witnesses. In 1914, Russell predicted the return of Jesus Christ.

1918
In 1918, new math didn't help the Witnesses from striking out again.

1925
The Witnesses had no better luck in 1925. They already possessed the title of �Most Wrong Predictions.� They would expand upon it in the years to come.

1941
Once again, Jehovah's Witnesses beleived that Armageddon was due. Before the end of 1941, the end of all things was predicted.

1967
When the city of Jerusalem was reclaimed by the Jews in 1967, prophecy watchers declared that the "Time of the Gentiles" had come to an end.

1970
The True Light Church of Christ made its claim to fame by incorrectly forecasting the return of Jesus. A number of church members had quit their livelihoods ahead of the promised advent.

1973
A comet that turned out to be a visual disappointment nonetheless compelled one preacher to announce that it would be a sign of the Lord's return.

1975
The Jehovah's Witnesses were back at it in 1975. The failure of the forecast did not affect the growth of the movement. The Watchtower magazine, a major Witness periodical, has over 13 million subscribers.

1977
We all remember the killer bee scare of the late 1970's. One prophecy prognosticator linked the bees to Revelation 9:3-12. After 20 years of progression, the bees are still in Texas. I'm beginning to think of them as the killer snails.

1981
One author boldly declared that the rapture would occur before December 31, 1981, based on Christian prophecy, astronomy, and a dash of ecological fatalism. He pegged the date to Jesus' promised return to earth a generation after Israel's rebirth. He also made references to the "Jupiter Effect," a planetary alignment occurring every 179 years that supposedly could lead to earthquakes and nuclear plant meltdowns.

1982
It was all going to end in 1982, when the planets lined up and created magnetic forces that would bring Armageddon to the earth.

1982
A group called the Tara Centers placed full-page advertisements in many major newspapers for the weekend of April 24-25, 1982, announcing: "The Christ is Now Here!" They predicted that He was to make himself known "within the next two months." After the date passed, they said that the delay was only because the "consciousness of the human race was not quite right..." Boy, all these years and we're still not ready.

1984
The Jehovah's Witnesses made sure, in 1984, that no one else would be able to top their record of most wrong doomsday predictions. The Witnesses' record currently holds at nine. The years are: 1874, 1878, 1881, 1910, 1914, 1918, 1925, 1975, and 1984. Lately, the JWs are claiming they're out of the prediction business, but it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. They'll be back.

1987
The Harmonic Convergence was planned for August 16-17, 1987, and several New Age events were also to occur at that time. The second coming of the serpent god of peace and the Hopi dance awakening were two examples.

1988
The book, 88 Reasons Why the Rapture is in 1988, came out only a few months before the event was to take place. What little time the book had, it used effectively. By the time the predicted dates, September 11-13, rolled around, whole churches were caught up in the excitement the book generated. I personally had friends who were measuring themselves for wings. In the dorm where we lived, my friends were also openly confronting all of the unsaved. It became my job to defuse situations. In one case, an accosted sinner was contemplating dispensary action against my now-distant friends. Finally, the days of destiny dawned and then set. No Jesus. The environment was not the same as Miller's 1844 failure. To my surprise, the taunting by the unsaved was very brief. I took it that people have very little understanding of the Bible, so they had nothing to taunt my friends with. I made one other interesting observation. Although the time for the rapture had been predicted to fall within a three-day window, September 11-13, my friends gave up hope on the morning of the 12th. I pointed out that they still had two days left, but they had been spooked, nonetheless

1989
After the passing of the deadline in 88 Reasons, the author, Edgar Whisenant, came out with a new book called 89 Reasons Why the Rapture is in 1989. This book sold only a fraction of the number of copies his prior release had sold.

1991
A group in Australia predicted Jesus would return through the Sydney Harbor at 9 a.m., March 31, 1991.

1991
Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan proclaimed the Gulf War would be "the War of Armageddon ... the final War."

1991
Menachem Schneerson, a Russian-born rabbi, called for the Messiah to come by September 9, 1991, the start of the Jewish New Year.

1992
A Korean group called Mission for the Coming Days had the Korea Church an uproar in the fall of 1992. They foresaw October 28, 1992 as the date for the rapture. Numerology was the basis for the date. Several camera shots that left ghostly images on pictures were thought to be a supernatural confirmation of the date.

1993
If the year 2000 is the end of the 6,000-year cycle, then the rapture must take place in 1993, because you would need seven years of the tribulation. This was the thinking of a number of prophecy writers.

1994
In the book, 1994: The Year of Destiny , F. M. Riley foretold of God's plan to rapture His people. The name of his ministry is �The Last Call,� and he operates out of Missouri.

1994
Pastor John Hinkle of Christ Church in Los Angeles caused quite a stir when he announced he had received a vision from God that warned of apocalyptic event on June 9, 1994. Hinkle, quoting God, said, "On Thursday June the 9th, I will rip the evil out of this world." At the time, I knew Hinkle's vision didn't match up with Scripture. From a proper reading of Bible prophecy, the only thing that God could possibly rip from the earth would be the Christian Church, and I don't think God would refer to the Church as "evil." Some people tried to interpret Hinkle's unscriptural vision to mean that God would the rip evil out of our hearts when He raptured us. Well, the date came and went with no heart surgery or rapture.

1994
Harold Camping, in his book Are You Ready?, predicted the Lord would return in September 1994. The book was full of numerology that added up to 1994 as the date of Christ's return.

1994
After promising they would not make anymore end time predictions, the Jehovah's Witnesses fell off the wagon and proclaimed 1994 as the conclusion of an 80-year generation; the year 1914 was the starting point.

1996
This year had a special month, according to one author who foresaw September as the time for our Lord's return. The Church Age will last 2,000 years from the time of Christ's birth in 4 BC.

1996
California psychic Sheldon Nidle predicted the end would come with the convergence of 16 million space ships and a host of angels upon the earth on December 17, 1996. Nidle explained the passing of the date by claiming the angels placed us in a holographic projection to preserve us and give us a second chance.

1997
In regard to 1997, I received several e-mail messages that pointed to this as the year when Jesus would return for His church. Two of the more widely known time frames were Monte Judah's prediction that the tribulation would begin in February/March and another prediction based on numerology and the Psalms that targeted May 14 as the date of the rapture.

1997
When Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat signed their peace pact on the White House lawn on September 13, 1993, some saw the events as the beginning of tribulation. With the signing of the peace agreement, Daniel's 1,260-day countdown was underway. By adding 1,260 days to September 1993, you arrive at February 24, 1997.

1997
Stan Johnson of the Prophecy Club saw a "90 percent" chance that the tribulation would start September 12, 1997. He based his conclusion on several end-time signs: that would be Jesus' 2,000th birthday and it would also be the Day of Atonement, although it wouldn�t be what is currently the Jewish Day of Atonement. Further supporting evidence came from Romanian pastor Dumitru Duduman. In several heavenly visions, Dumitru claimed to have seen the Book of Life. In one of his earlier visions, there were several pages yet to be completed. In his last vision, he noticed the Book of Life only had one page left. Doing some rough calculating, Johnson and friends figured the latest time frame for the completion of the book would have to be September 1997.

1998
Numerology: Because 666 times three equals 1998, some people point to this year as being prophetically significant. Someone called me long distance just so he could pass on to me this earth-shattering news.

1998
A Taiwanese cult operating out of Garland, Texas predicted Christ would return on March 31 of 1998. The group's leader, Heng-ming Chen, announced God would return and then invite the cult members aboard a UFO.

The group abandoned their prediction when a precursor event failed to take place. The cult's leader had said that God would appear on every channel 18 of every TV in the world. Maybe God realized at the last minute, the Playboy Network was channel 18 on several cable systems, and He didn't want to have Christians watching a porn channel.

1998
On April 30, 1998, Israel was to turn 50 and many believed this birthday would mark the beginning of the tribulation. The reasoning behind this date has to do with God's age requirement for the priesthood, which is between 30-50.

1998
1998 Marilyn Agee, in her book, The End of the Age, had her sights set on May 31, 1998. This date was to conclude the 6,000-year cycle from the time of Adam. Agee looked for the rapture to take place on Pentecost, which is also known as �the Feast of Weeks.� Another indicator of this date was the fact that the Holy Spirit did not descend upon the apostles until 50 days after Christ's resurrection. Israel was born in 1948; add the 50 days as years and you come up with

After her May 31 rapture date failed, Agee, unable to face up to her error, continued her date setting by using various Scripture references to point to June 7, 14, 21 and about 10 other dates.

1999
Well, you can't call Marilyn Agee a quitter. After bombing out badly several time in 1998, Marilyn set a new date for the rapture: May 21 or 22 of this year.

1999
TV newscaster-turned-psychic Charles Criswell King had said in 1968 that the world as we know it would cease to exist on August 18, 1999.

1999
Philip Berg, a rabbi at the Kabbalah Learning Center in New York, proclaimed that the end might arrive on September 11, 1999, when "a ball of fire will descend . . . destroying almost all of mankind, all vegetation, all forms of life."

2000
Numerology: If you divide 2,000 by 3, you will get the devil's number: 666.66666666666667.

2000
The names of the people and organizations that called for the return of Christ at the turn of the century is too long to be listed here. I would say that if there were a day on which Christ could not return, it must have been January 1, 2000. To come at an unknown time means to come at an unknown time. I think January 2, 2000 would have been a more likely day for Him to call His Church home--right after the big let down.

2000
On May 5, 2000, all of the planets were supposed to have been in alignment. This was said to cause the earth to suffer earthquakes, volcanic eruption, and various other nasty stuff. A similar alignment occurred in 1982 and nothing happened. People failed to realize that the other nine planets only exert a very tiny gravitational pull on the earth. If you were to add up the gravitational force from the rest of the planets, the total would only amount to a fraction of the tug the moon has on the earth.

2000
According to Michael Rood, the end times have a prophetically complicated connection to Israel's spring barley harvest. The Day of the Lord began on May 5, 2000. Rood's fall feast calendar called for the Russian Gog-Magog invasion of Israel to take place at sundown on October 28, 2000.

2000-2001
Dr. Dale Sumbur�ru looked for March 22, 1997 to be "the date when all the dramatic events leading through the tribulation to the return of Christ should begin" The actual date of Christ's return could be somewhere between July 2000 and March 2001. Dr. Sumbur�ru is more general about the timing of Christ's second coming than most writers. He states, "The day the Lord returns is currently unknown because He said [Jesus] these days are cut short and it is not yet clear by how much and in what manner they are cut short. If the above assumptions are not correct, my margin of error would be in weeks, or perhaps months."

2002
Priests from Cuba's Afro-Caribbean Yoruba religion predicted a dramatic year of tragedy and crisis for the world in 2002, ranging from coups and war to disease and flooding.

2004
This date for Jesus' return is based upon psalmology, numerology, the biblical 360 days per year, Jewish holidays, and "biblical astronomy." To figure out this date, you'll need a calculator, a slide rule, and plenty of scratch paper.

2011-2018
For the past several decades, Jack Van Impe has hinted at nearly every year as being the time for the rapture. Normally, he has only gone out one or two years from the current calendar year. However, Jack's latest projection for the rapture goes out several years. His new math uses 51 years as the length of a generation. If you add 51 years to 1967, the year Israel recaptured Jerusalem, you get 2018. Once you subtract the seven-year tribulation period, you arrive at 2011.

2012
New Age writers cite Mayan and Aztec calendars that predict the end of the age on December 21, 2012.

2060
Sir Isaac Newton, Britain's greatest scientist, spent 50 years and wrote 4,500 pages trying to predict when the end of the world was coming. The most definitive date he set for the apocalypse, which he scribbled on a scrap of paper, was 2060.

[Seshmeister]

The post above is long but funny, take 5 minutes to read it there may be just enough time before the rapture...:)

[rustoffa]

[i]Originally posted by Seshmeister

53 AD
Even before all the books of the Bible were written, there was talk that Christ's return had already taken place. The Thessalonians panicked on Paul when they heard a rumor that the day of the Lord was at hand, and they had missed the rapture.



I actually skimmed through the majority of it and decided to focus on this. The Thessalonians were the mythological equivalent of Turkish fluffers. Months, arguably years before Achilles defiled the temple of Apollo, he humiliated the Thessalonian contigent after gutting their gratest warrior. This is interesting based on the future "no god" mantra Achilles insisted the motherfuckers should employ......

Years went by and nostrodumbass came along.

Somebody should've nailed that dipshit with an arrow to the ankle!

[Unchainme]

^^^^
The hilliarious thing is that people don't realize that when there is a naoapocolpsye, God DIDN'T set a date and that he DIDN'T say that he was going to tell anyone when it was going to happen, It could happen anytime Right now or in 5 million years you never know.

[Unchainme]

^^^^^
BTW I am an extremely Liberal Christian.

[Jesus Christ]

My children, I clearly laid out the signs for what to look for regarding My return to this earth in the 24th chapter of Matthew's Gospel......

Matthew 24

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[ashstralia]

thank you, Jesus.

all praise be unto you.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
I hate to break the intelligent convo with a stupid question, but what is "the Rapture theory"? I heard about it when I was visiting the boyfriend's Church and doing the Bible study portion of the service and they started talking about it and what they believe heaven is like and all that, but I wasn't in a Catholic friendly area and I was too afraid to bring it up.


The word "Rapture" is not found in the Bible. There is also no single word used by the biblical authors to describe the prophetic factors which comprise the doctrine.
Its formulation has come about by means of induction. Certain biblical passages concerning the second coming (and the role that Christians will play in that event) have been inductively blended together to establish the teaching.
The modern expression "Rapture" was then invented to explain the overall teaching and the term suits the subject well. The basic tenets of the doctrine are uninvolved.

Simply put, it purports that Christ will come back to this earth in two phases. He will first return invisibly to rapture His church away from this world so that they might escape or partially escape the prophetical tribulation to occur near the end of the age, then later Christ will return in a visible advent to dispense His wrath on the world's nations.
This is the general teaching.

Many details concerning these prime factors, however, are hotly debated. There is especially much argument over the chronological features associated with it. Some think the time lapse between the two phases will be 3 1/2 years, others say 7 years. Some feel that the Rapture of the church occurs before the Tribulation, others about mid-way through, Many suggest that the church will be taken to heaven for protection, but a few have proposed a geographical area on this earth.

There are those who feel that only part of the church will escape, while others say all will be rescued, These variations, along with others, have multiplied the interpretations to such an extent that many diverse secondary opinions exist among those holding the belief.

But all are unanimous on one point...the central theme of the Rapture shows that Christ will return to earth in two phases.

It may come as a surprise to many Christians, but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 A.D.

Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned anything about it.

Of course, those who feel the origin of the teaching is in the Bible would say that it only ceased being taught (for some unknown reason) at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830 A.D.

But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19th century.
This does not necessarily show that the teaching is wrong, but it does mean that thousands of eminent scholars who lived over a span of seventeen centuries (including some of the most astute of the "Christian Fathers" and those of the Reformation and post-Reformation periods) must be considered as prophetic dunces for not having understood so fundamental a teaching.

I am not denigrating the doctrine in mentioning these historical facts. That is not the intention. But I do feel that the historical problems associated with the teaching should be shown to everyone who considers themselves a believer.
This lapse of seventeen centuries when no one mentioned anything about it is a serious obstacle to its reliability.

The result of a careful investigation into the origin of the Rapture has been recently published. The book is an excellent one which deserves to be read by all people interested in the subject.

Its called "The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin" by Dave MacPherson.

He catalogs a great deal of historical material which answers the doctrine's mysterious derivation.
In the middle 1820's a religious environment began to be established among a few Christians in London. England which proved to be the catalyst around which the doctrine of the Rapture emerged.

Expectations of the soon coming of our Lord were being voiced, This was no new thing, but what was unusual was the teaching by a Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving that there had to be a restoration of the spiritual gifts mentioned in (I Corinthians 12-14) just before Christ's second coming.

To Irving, the time had come for those spiritual manifestations to occur. Among the expected gifts was the renewal of speaking in tongues and of spirit-motivated prophetic utterances.

Irving began to propagate his beliefs. His oratorical skills and enthusiasm caused his congregation in London to grow. Then a number of people began to experience the "gifts."

Once this happened opposition from the organized churches set in. It resulted in Irving's dismissal from the Presbyterian church in 1832. His group then established themselves as the Catholic Apostolic Church and continued the teachings of Irving.

These events were the beginning of what some call present day Pentecostalism.

Irving has been called by some church historians "the father of modern Pentecostalism."
What does all this have to do with the origin of the Rapture doctrine?

Very much indeed.

Let's look at what happened in the year 1830, two years before Irving's dismissal from the Presbyterian church.

In that year a revival of the "gifts" began to be manifested among a few people living in the lowlands of Scotland. They experienced what they called the outpouring of the Spirit. It was accompanied with speaking in "tongues" and other charismatic phenomena. Irving had been preaching these things must occur, and now they were.

On one particular evening. the power of the Holy Spirit was said to have rested on a Miss Margaret Macdonald while she was in a state of illness at home. She was dangerously sick and thought she was dying.

In spite of this, or perhaps because she is supposed to have come under "power" of the spirit for several successive hours during which she experienced the manifestations of "mingled prophecy and vision." The message she received during this prophetic vision convinced her that Christ was going to appear in two stages at His second coming and not one!

The emanation revealed that Christ would first come in glory to them that look for Him and again in a final stage when every eye would see Him.
It was this visionary experience of Miss Macdonald which represents the prime source of the modern Rapture doctrine as the historical evidence compiled by Mr. MacPherson clearly shows.

Many people have thought that John Darby, the founder of the Plymouth Brethren, was the originator of the Rapture doctrine, (My own church surely does) But this is not the case.

Darby was a brilliant theologian with outstanding scholarly abilities, (which anyone can possess if you attend classes at your local Seminary).
Even those who have disagreed with his teachings admit that he, and many associated with him, helped to cause a revival in biblical learning throughout the evangelical world (which even has been perpetuated down to our own present day).

It had long been thought by many Christians that the Rapture doctrine originated with John Darby.
It is now known that this is not true. Darby only popularized it. Scofield and others who took over Darby's mantle later helped to make it respectable.
Today, many of those in the evangelical sphere of Christianity are so certain of its veracity that it is accepted as the absolute truth of God. The fact is, however, John Darby received the knowledge of the doctrine from someone else. The source was the Margaret Macdonald mentioned above.

The studies of Mr. MacPherson show that her sickness during which she received her visions and revelations occurred sometime between February 1 and April 14, 1830. And by late spring and early summer of 1830, her belief in the two phases of Christ's coming was being mentioned in praise and prayer meetings in several towns of western Scotland.

In these meetings some people were speaking in "tongues" and other charismatic occurrences were in evidence. These extraordinary and strange events in western Scotland so attracted John Darby that he made a trip to the area to witness himself what was going on.
Though he did not approve of the ecstatic episodes that he witnessed. it is nonetheless significant that Darby, after returning from Scotland, began to teach that Christ's second coming would occur in two phases.

MacPherson shows good evidence that Darby had even visited Miss Macdonald in her home. There can hardly he any doubt that the visions of Miss Macdonald are the source of the modern doctrine.

While it is possible that visionary revelations can come from God, it is always prudent to be careful in these types of things.
Near the same time that Miss Macdonald was receiving her visions, Joseph Smith in America was experiencing his apparitions which brought Mormon doctrines to the world.

John Wilson also had his dreams which were the spark that started the false teaching of British realism.
Not long afterwards Ellen G. White received her visions that resulted in many Seventh Day Adventist teachings. And remarkably, all these individuals received revelations of doctrines which were much at variance with one another. Such incidents bring to mind the warning that God gave to Moses.

"If there arise among you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and giveth thee a sign or wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke unto thee, saying, let us go after other gods, which thou hast not known, and let us serve them; thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the Lord proveth you, to know whether ye love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul" (Deuteronomy 13: 1-3).

The teachings of visionaries also calls to mind what the apostle John tells Christians.

"Beloved. believe not every spirit. but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world" (I John 4:1).

Hence why i cling to.
"Prove all things, hold fast that which is good" (Thessalonians 5:21).

And though some point to the prophecy of Daniel that "knowledge shall be increased" (Daniel 12:4) a proof that the revival of doctrinal truths will occur at the end of the age, this is not what Daniel meant.

If one reads the prophet carefully. he will find that Daniel is speaking about the knowledge of his prophecies which will be increased. not the revival of general doctrines.
In the original text of Daniel the definite article occurs before the word "knowledge." Daniel actually said "THE knowledge will be increased" and the text shows he means "the knowledge of his prophecies." Daniel is in no way speaking about renewing of doctrines at the time of the end.

A further admonition is necessary concerning the origins of teachings which might happen near our own time. It is by the apostle Paul.

"Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils" (I Timothy 4:1 ).

These warnings from God's word are given as a reminder that we should exercise caution in accepting the truthfulness of visionary revelations especially those that happen near the end of the age and are contradictory to themselves or the Bible.

While there are many suspicious factors conferred with the origin of the Rapture, it could be admitted that the doctrine may reflect a teaching found in the Bible. At least, many feel so. John Darby no doubt thought there was something to it because after his trip to Scotland he changed his mind from believing in a single stage coming and adopted the two stage doctrine which became known as the Rapture.

Darby was certainly not a visionary and his teachings (whether right or wrong) are almost always based on scriptural revelation. It was Darby who popularized the Rapture with the scriptural arguments which seem so convincing to some.

It could be that the teaching is basically true, but I have felt the need to study the unbiblical source of the doctrine.

Too many people have for gotten that it was Miss Macdonald's visions which introduced the doctrine to the world.

Whether one believes in The Rapture or not, it has nothing to do with the assured salvation that all Christians have in Christ.

That as they say, is a fact!

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Jesterstar
My children, I clearly laid out the signs for what to look for regarding My return to this earth in the 24th chapter of Matthew's Gospel......

Matthew 24

1 And Jesterstar went out, and departed from the temple: and his imaginary friends came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesterstar said unto them, See ye not all these cocks? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the cock of Oliver, the imaginary friends came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall we see the cock? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesterstar answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Jesterstar; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of reunions and rumours of reunions: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end of Van Halen is not yet.

7 For website shall rise against website, and poster against poster: and there shall be photoshops, and porn, and spam, in diverse places, even VH Links

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to receive the cock, and shall own you: and ye shall be hated by everyone for my name's sake.

Etc etc.

[Jesus Christ]

**searches for a plague of frogs.....**

[BigBadBrian]

OK you damned heathens. It's my turn in this little thread.

Start reading. The Book of John in its entirety. Go. That means you kentucky.


John 1 (New International Version)
The Word Became Flesh
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2He was with God in the beginning.
3Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4In him was life, and that life was the light of men. 5The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood[a] it.

6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.[b]

10He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13children born not of natural descent,[c] nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

14The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only,[d] who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

15John testifies concerning him. He cries out, saying, "This was he of whom I said, 'He who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' " 16From the fullness of his grace we have all received one blessing after another. 17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 18No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only,[e][f]who is at the Father's side, has made him known.

John the Baptist Denies Being the Christ
19Now this was John's testimony when the Jews of Jerusalem sent priests and Levites to ask him who he was. 20He did not fail to confess, but confessed freely, "I am not the Christ.[g]"
21They asked him, "Then who are you? Are you Elijah?"
He said, "I am not."
"Are you the Prophet?"
He answered, "No."

22Finally they said, "Who are you? Give us an answer to take back to those who sent us. What do you say about yourself?"

23John replied in the words of Isaiah the prophet, "I am the voice of one calling in the desert, 'Make straight the way for the Lord.' "[h]

24Now some Pharisees who had been sent 25questioned him, "Why then do you baptize if you are not the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the Prophet?"

26"I baptize with water," John replied, "but among you stands one you do not know. 27He is the one who comes after me, the thongs of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie."

28This all happened at Bethany on the other side of the Jordan, where John was baptizing.

Jesus the Lamb of God
29The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! 30This is the one I meant when I said, 'A man who comes after me has surpassed me because he was before me.' 31I myself did not know him, but the reason I came baptizing with water was that he might be revealed to Israel."
32Then John gave this testimony: "I saw the Spirit come down from heaven as a dove and remain on him. 33I would not have known him, except that the one who sent me to baptize with water told me, 'The man on whom you see the Spirit come down and remain is he who will baptize with the Holy Spirit.' 34I have seen and I testify that this is the Son of God."

Jesus' First Disciples
35The next day John was there again with two of his disciples. 36When he saw Jesus passing by, he said, "Look, the Lamb of God!"
37When the two disciples heard him say this, they followed Jesus. 38Turning around, Jesus saw them following and asked, "What do you want?"
They said, "Rabbi" (which means Teacher), "where are you staying?"

39"Come," he replied, "and you will see."
So they went and saw where he was staying, and spent that day with him. It was about the tenth hour.

40Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, was one of the two who heard what John had said and who had followed Jesus. 41The first thing Andrew did was to find his brother Simon and tell him, "We have found the Messiah" (that is, the Christ). 42And he brought him to Jesus.
Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon son of John. You will be called Cephas" (which, when translated, is Peter[j]).

Jesus Calls Philip and Nathanael
43The next day Jesus decided to leave for Galilee. Finding Philip, he said to him, "Follow me."
44Philip, like Andrew and Peter, was from the town of Bethsaida. 45Philip found Nathanael and told him, "We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."

46"Nazareth! Can anything good come from there?" Nathanael asked.
"Come and see," said Philip.

47When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here is a true Israelite, in whom there is nothing false."

48"How do you know me?" Nathanael asked.
Jesus answered, "I saw you while you were still under the fig tree before Philip called you."

49Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."

50Jesus said, "You believe[k] because I told you I saw you under the fig tree. You shall see greater things than that." 51He then added, "I tell you[l] the truth, you[m] shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on the Son of Man."






John 2 (New International Version)
Jesus Changes Water to Wine
1On the third day a wedding took place at Cana in Galilee. Jesus' mother was there, 2and Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3When the wine was gone, Jesus' mother said to him, "They have no more wine."
4"Dear woman, why do you involve me?" Jesus replied, "My time has not yet come."

5His mother said to the servants, "Do whatever he tells you."

6Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.[a]

7Jesus said to the servants, "Fill the jars with water"; so they filled them to the brim.

8Then he told them, "Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet."

They did so, 9and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside 10and said, "Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now."

11This, the first of his miraculous signs, Jesus performed in Cana of Galilee. He thus revealed his glory, and his disciples put their faith in him.

Jesus Clears the Temple
12After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother and brothers and his disciples. There they stayed for a few days.
13When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 14In the temple courts he found men selling cattle, sheep and doves, and others sitting at tables exchanging money. 15So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables. 16To those who sold doves he said, "Get these out of here! How dare you turn my Father's house into a market!"

17His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."[b]

18Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?"

19Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days."

20The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" 21But the temple he had spoken of was his body. 22After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken.

23Now while he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many people saw the miraculous signs he was doing and believed in his name.[c] 24But Jesus would not entrust himself to them, for he knew all men. 25He did not need man's testimony about man, for he knew what was in a man.





John 3 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 3
Jesus Teaches Nicodemus
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. 2He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him."
3In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.[a]"

4"How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!"

5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You[c] must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."

9"How can this be?" Nicodemus asked.

10"You are Israel's teacher," said Jesus, "and do you not understand these things? 11I tell you the truth, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, but still you people do not accept our testimony. 12I have spoken to you of earthly things and you do not believe; how then will you believe if I speak of heavenly things? 13No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[d] 14Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.[e]

[i] 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]

John the Baptist's Testimony About Jesus
22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. 23Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. 24(This was before John was put in prison.) 25An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew[i] over the matter of ceremonial washing. 26They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him."
27To this John replied, "A man can receive only what is given him from heaven. 28You yourselves can testify that I said, 'I am not the Christ[j] but am sent ahead of him.' 29The bride belongs to the bridegroom. The friend who attends the bridegroom waits and listens for him, and is full of joy when he hears the bridegroom's voice. That joy is mine, and it is now complete. 30He must become greater; I must become less.

31"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[k] gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."[l]

John 4 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 4
Jesus Talks With a Samaritan Woman
1The Pharisees heard that Jesus was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John, 2although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples. 3When the Lord learned of this, he left Judea and went back once more to Galilee.
4Now he had to go through Samaria. 5So he came to a town in Samaria called Sychar, near the plot of ground Jacob had given to his son Joseph. 6Jacob's well was there, and Jesus, tired as he was from the journey, sat down by the well. It was about the sixth hour.

7When a Samaritan woman came to draw water, Jesus said to her, "Will you give me a drink?" 8(His disciples had gone into the town to buy food.)

9The Samaritan woman said to him, "You are a Jew and I am a Samaritan woman. How can you ask me for a drink?" (For Jews do not associate with Samaritans.[a])

10Jesus answered her, "If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water."

11"Sir," the woman said, "you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? 12Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his flocks and herds?"

13Jesus answered, "Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life."

15The woman said to him, "Sir, give me this water so that I won't get thirsty and have to keep coming here to draw water."

16He told her, "Go, call your husband and come back."

17"I have no husband," she replied.

Jesus said to her, "You are right when you say you have no husband. 18The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true."

19"Sir," the woman said, "I can see that you are a prophet. 20Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem."

21Jesus declared, "Believe me, woman, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

25The woman said, "I know that Messiah" (called Christ) "is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us."

26Then Jesus declared, "I who speak to you am he."

The Disciples Rejoin Jesus
27Just then his disciples returned and were surprised to find him talking with a woman. But no one asked, "What do you want?" or "Why are you talking with her?"
28Then, leaving her water jar, the woman went back to the town and said to the people, 29"Come, see a man who told me everything I ever did. Could this be the Christ[b]?" 30They came out of the town and made their way toward him.

31Meanwhile his disciples urged him, "Rabbi, eat something."

32But he said to them, "I have food to eat that you know nothing about."

33Then his disciples said to each other, "Could someone have brought him food?"

34"My food," said Jesus, "is to do the will of him who sent me and to finish his work. 35Do you not say, 'Four months more and then the harvest'? I tell you, open your eyes and look at the fields! They are ripe for harvest. 36Even now the reaper draws his wages, even now he harvests the crop for eternal life, so that the sower and the reaper may be glad together. 37Thus the saying 'One sows and another reaps' is true. 38I sent you to reap what you have not worked for. Others have done the hard work, and you have reaped the benefits of their labor."

Many Samaritans Believe
39Many of the Samaritans from that town believed in him because of the woman's testimony, "He told me everything I ever did." 40So when the Samaritans came to him, they urged him to stay with them, and he stayed two days. 41And because of his words many more became believers.
42They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this man really is the Savior of the world."

Jesus Heals the Official's Son
43After the two days he left for Galilee. 44(Now Jesus himself had pointed out that a prophet has no honor in his own country.) 45When he arrived in Galilee, the Galileans welcomed him. They had seen all that he had done in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, for they also had been there.
46Once more he visited Cana in Galilee, where he had turned the water into wine. And there was a certain royal official whose son lay sick at Capernaum. 47When this man heard that Jesus had arrived in Galilee from Judea, he went to him and begged him to come and heal his son, who was close to death.

48"Unless you people see miraculous signs and wonders," Jesus told him, "you will never believe."

49The royal official said, "Sir, come down before my child dies."

50Jesus replied, "You may go. Your son will live."
The man took Jesus at his word and departed. 51While he was still on the way, his servants met him with the news that his boy was living. 52When he inquired as to the time when his son got better, they said to him, "The fever left him yesterday at the seventh hour."

53Then the father realized that this was the exact time at which Jesus had said to him, "Your son will live." So he and all his household believed.

54This was the second miraculous sign that Jesus performed, having come from Judea to Galilee.




John 5 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 5
The Healing at the Pool
1Some time later, Jesus went up to Jerusalem for a feast of the Jews. 2Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda[a] and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. 3Here a great number of disabled people used to lie—the blind, the lame, the paralyzed.[b] 5One who was there had been an invalid for thirty-eight years. 6When Jesus saw him lying there and learned that he had been in this condition for a long time, he asked him, "Do you want to get well?"
7"Sir," the invalid replied, "I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me."

8Then Jesus said to him, "Get up! Pick up your mat and walk." 9At once the man was cured; he picked up his mat and walked.
The day on which this took place was a Sabbath, 10and so the Jews said to the man who had been healed, "It is the Sabbath; the law forbids you to carry your mat."

11But he replied, "The man who made me well said to me, 'Pick up your mat and walk.' "

12So they asked him, "Who is this fellow who told you to pick it up and walk?"

13The man who was healed had no idea who it was, for Jesus had slipped away into the crowd that was there.

14Later Jesus found him at the temple and said to him, "See, you are well again. Stop sinning or something worse may happen to you." 15The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him well.

Life Through the Son
16So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. 17Jesus said to them, "My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working." 18For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God.
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it. 22Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

24"I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life. 25I tell you the truth, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.

28"Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Testimonies About Jesus
31"If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid. 32There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is valid.
33"You have sent to John and he has testified to the truth. 34Not that I accept human testimony; but I mention it that you may be saved. 35John was a lamp that burned and gave light, and you chose for a time to enjoy his light.

36"I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which I am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me. 37And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form, 38nor does his word dwell in you, for you do not believe the one he sent. 39You diligently study[c] the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.

41"I do not accept praise from men, 42but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43I have come in my Father's name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God[d]?

45"But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?"






John 6 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 6
Jesus Feeds the Five Thousand
1Some time after this, Jesus crossed to the far shore of the Sea of Galilee (that is, the Sea of Tiberias), 2and a great crowd of people followed him because they saw the miraculous signs he had performed on the sick. 3Then Jesus went up on a mountainside and sat down with his disciples. 4The Jewish Passover Feast was near.
5When Jesus looked up and saw a great crowd coming toward him, he said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread for these people to eat?" 6He asked this only to test him, for he already had in mind what he was going to do.

7Philip answered him, "Eight months' wages[a] would not buy enough bread for each one to have a bite!"

8Another of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, spoke up, 9"Here is a boy with five small barley loaves and two small fish, but how far will they go among so many?"

10Jesus said, "Have the people sit down." There was plenty of grass in that place, and the men sat down, about five thousand of them. 11Jesus then took the loaves, gave thanks, and distributed to those who were seated as much as they wanted. He did the same with the fish.

12When they had all had enough to eat, he said to his disciples, "Gather the pieces that are left over. Let nothing be wasted." 13So they gathered them and filled twelve baskets with the pieces of the five barley loaves left over by those who had eaten.

14After the people saw the miraculous sign that Jesus did, they began to say, "Surely this is the Prophet who is to come into the world." 15Jesus, knowing that they intended to come and make him king by force, withdrew again to a mountain by himself.

Jesus Walks on the Water
16When evening came, his disciples went down to the lake, 17where they got into a boat and set off across the lake for Capernaum. By now it was dark, and Jesus had not yet joined them. 18A strong wind was blowing and the waters grew rough. 19When they had rowed three or three and a half miles,[b] they saw Jesus approaching the boat, walking on the water; and they were terrified. 20But he said to them, "It is I; don't be afraid." 21Then they were willing to take him into the boat, and immediately the boat reached the shore where they were heading.
22The next day the crowd that had stayed on the opposite shore of the lake realized that only one boat had been there, and that Jesus had not entered it with his disciples, but that they had gone away alone. 23Then some boats from Tiberias landed near the place where the people had eaten the bread after the Lord had given thanks. 24Once the crowd realized that neither Jesus nor his disciples were there, they got into the boats and went to Capernaum in search of Jesus.

Jesus the Bread of Life
25When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, "Rabbi, when did you get here?"
26Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, you are looking for me, not because you saw miraculous signs but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. On him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

28Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"

29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."

30So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'[c]"

32Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world."

34"Sir," they said, "from now on give us this bread."

35Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

41At this the Jews began to grumble about him because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is this not Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How can he now say, 'I came down from heaven'?"

43"Stop grumbling among yourselves," Jesus answered. 44"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. 45It is written in the Prophets: 'They will all be taught by God.'[d] Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me. 46No one has seen the Father except the one who is from God; only he has seen the Father. 47I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life. 48I am the bread of life. 49Your forefathers ate the manna in the desert, yet they died. 50But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which a man may eat and not die. 51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world."

52Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, "How can this man give us his flesh to eat?"

53Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. 56Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in him. 57Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me. 58This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your forefathers ate manna and died, but he who feeds on this bread will live forever." 59He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.

Many Disciples Desert Jesus
60On hearing it, many of his disciples said, "This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?"
61Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, "Does this offend you? 62What if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! 63The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you are spirit[e] and they are life. 64Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him. 65He went on to say, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him."

66From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.

67"You do not want to leave too, do you?" Jesus asked the Twelve.

68Simon Peter answered him, "Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. 69We believe and know that you are the Holy One of God."

70Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)






John 7 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 7
Jesus Goes to the Feast of Tabernacles
1After this, Jesus went around in Galilee, purposely staying away from Judea because the Jews there were waiting to take his life. 2But when the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles was near, 3Jesus' brothers said to him, "You ought to leave here and go to Judea, so that your disciples may see the miracles you do. 4No one who wants to become a public figure acts in secret. Since you are doing these things, show yourself to the world." 5For even his own brothers did not believe in him.
6Therefore Jesus told them, "The right time for me has not yet come; for you any time is right. 7The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify that what it does is evil. 8You go to the Feast. I am not yet[a] going up to this Feast, because for me the right time has not yet come." 9Having said this, he stayed in Galilee.

10However, after his brothers had left for the Feast, he went also, not publicly, but in secret. 11Now at the Feast the Jews were watching for him and asking, "Where is that man?"

12Among the crowds there was widespread whispering about him. Some said, "He is a good man."

Others replied, "No, he deceives the people." 13But no one would say anything publicly about him for fear of the Jews.

Jesus Teaches at the Feast
14Not until halfway through the Feast did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. 15The Jews were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having studied?"
16Jesus answered, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. 17If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18He who speaks on his own does so to gain honor for himself, but he who works for the honor of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him. 19Has not Moses given you the law? Yet not one of you keeps the law. Why are you trying to kill me?"

20"You are demon-possessed," the crowd answered. "Who is trying to kill you?"

21Jesus said to them, "I did one miracle, and you are all astonished. 22Yet, because Moses gave you circumcision (though actually it did not come from Moses, but from the patriarchs), you circumcise a child on the Sabbath. 23Now if a child can be circumcised on the Sabbath so that the law of Moses may not be broken, why are you angry with me for healing the whole man on the Sabbath? 24Stop judging by mere appearances, and make a right judgment."

Is Jesus the Christ?
25At that point some of the people of Jerusalem began to ask, "Isn't this the man they are trying to kill? 26Here he is, speaking publicly, and they are not saying a word to him. Have the authorities really concluded that he is the Christ[b]? 27But we know where this man is from; when the Christ comes, no one will know where he is from."
28Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, "Yes, you know me, and you know where I am from. I am not here on my own, but he who sent me is true. You do not know him, 29but I know him because I am from him and he sent me."

30At this they tried to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his time had not yet come. 31Still, many in the crowd put their faith in him. They said, "When the Christ comes, will he do more miraculous signs than this man?"

32The Pharisees heard the crowd whispering such things about him. Then the chief priests and the Pharisees sent temple guards to arrest him.

33Jesus said, "I am with you for only a short time, and then I go to the one who sent me. 34You will look for me, but you will not find me; and where I am, you cannot come."

35The Jews said to one another, "Where does this man intend to go that we cannot find him? Will he go where our people live scattered among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks? 36What did he mean when he said, 'You will look for me, but you will not find me,' and 'Where I am, you cannot come'?"

37On the last and greatest day of the Feast, Jesus stood and said in a loud voice, "If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink. 38Whoever believes in me, as[c] the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him." 39By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified.

40On hearing his words, some of the people said, "Surely this man is the Prophet."

41Others said, "He is the Christ."

Still others asked, "How can the Christ come from Galilee? 42Does not the Scripture say that the Christ will come from David's family[d] and from Bethlehem, the town where David lived?" 43Thus the people were divided because of Jesus. 44Some wanted to seize him, but no one laid a hand on him.

Unbelief of the Jewish Leaders
45Finally the temple guards went back to the chief priests and Pharisees, who asked them, "Why didn't you bring him in?"
46"No one ever spoke the way this man does," the guards declared.

47"You mean he has deceived you also?" the Pharisees retorted. 48"Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him? 49No! But this mob that knows nothing of the law—there is a curse on them."

50Nicodemus, who had gone to Jesus earlier and who was one of their own number, asked, 51"Does our law condemn anyone without first hearing him to find out what he is doing?"

52They replied, "Are you from Galilee, too? Look into it, and you will find that a prophet[e] does not come out of Galilee."

((The earliest and most reliable manuscripts and other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53-8:11.))
53Then each went to his own home.




John 8 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 8
1But Jesus went to the Mount of Olives. 2At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4and said to Jesus, "Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?" 6They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.

But Jesus bent down and started to write on the ground with his finger. 7When they kept on questioning him, he straightened up and said to them, "If any one of you is without sin, let him be the first to throw a stone at her." 8Again he stooped down and wrote on the ground.

9At this, those who heard began to go away one at a time, the older ones first, until only Jesus was left, with the woman still standing there. 10Jesus straightened up and asked her, "Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?"

11"No one, sir," she said.
"Then neither do I condemn you," Jesus declared. "Go now and leave your life of sin."

The Validity of Jesus' Testimony
12When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
13The Pharisees challenged him, "Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid."

14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going. 15You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. 16But if I do judge, my decisions are right, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me. 17In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two men is valid. 18I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me."

19Then they asked him, "Where is your father?"

"You do not know me or my Father," Jesus replied. "If you knew me, you would know my Father also." 20He spoke these words while teaching in the temple area near the place where the offerings were put. Yet no one seized him, because his time had not yet come.

21Once more Jesus said to them, "I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come."

22This made the Jews ask, "Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, 'Where I go, you cannot come'?"

23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be,[a] you will indeed die in your sins."

25"Who are you?" they asked.

"Just what I have been claiming all along," Jesus replied. 26"I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is reliable, and what I have heard from him I tell the world."

27They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father. 28So Jesus said, "When you have lifted up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am the one I claim to be and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me. 29The one who sent me is with me; he has not left me alone, for I always do what pleases him." 30Even as he spoke, many put their faith in him.

The Children of Abraham
31To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, "If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. 32Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free."
33They answered him, "We are Abraham's descendants[b] and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?"

34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.[c]"

39"Abraham is our father," they answered.

"If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would[d] do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does."
"We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself."

The Children of the Devil
42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God."
The Claims of Jesus About Himself
48The Jews answered him, "Aren't we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?"
49"I am not possessed by a demon," said Jesus, "but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. 50I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. 51I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death."

52At this the Jews exclaimed, "Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that if anyone keeps your word, he will never taste death. 53Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?"

54Jesus replied, "If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. 55Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and keep his word. 56Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

57"You are not yet fifty years old," the Jews said to him, "and you have seen Abraham!"

58"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" 59At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.






John 9 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 9
Jesus Heals a Man Born Blind
1As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. 2His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?"
3"Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. 4As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. 5While I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

6Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man's eyes. 7"Go," he told him, "wash in the Pool of Siloam" (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing.

8His neighbors and those who had formerly seen him begging asked, "Isn't this the same man who used to sit and beg?" 9Some claimed that he was.
Others said, "No, he only looks like him."
But he himself insisted, "I am the man."

10"How then were your eyes opened?" they demanded.

11He replied, "The man they call Jesus made some mud and put it on my eyes. He told me to go to Siloam and wash. So I went and washed, and then I could see."

12"Where is this man?" they asked him.
"I don't know," he said.

The Pharisees Investigate the Healing
13They brought to the Pharisees the man who had been blind. 14Now the day on which Jesus had made the mud and opened the man's eyes was a Sabbath. 15Therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he had received his sight. "He put mud on my eyes," the man replied, "and I washed, and now I see."
16Some of the Pharisees said, "This man is not from God, for he does not keep the Sabbath."
But others asked, "How can a sinner do such miraculous signs?" So they were divided.

17Finally they turned again to the blind man, "What have you to say about him? It was your eyes he opened."
The man replied, "He is a prophet."

18The Jews still did not believe that he had been blind and had received his sight until they sent for the man's parents. 19"Is this your son?" they asked. "Is this the one you say was born blind? How is it that now he can see?"

20"We know he is our son," the parents answered, "and we know he was born blind. 21But how he can see now, or who opened his eyes, we don't know. Ask him. He is of age; he will speak for himself." 22His parents said this because they were afraid of the Jews, for already the Jews had decided that anyone who acknowledged that Jesus was the Christ[a] would be put out of the synagogue. 23That was why his parents said, "He is of age; ask him."

24A second time they summoned the man who had been blind. "Give glory to God,[b]" they said. "We know this man is a sinner."

25He replied, "Whether he is a sinner or not, I don't know. One thing I do know. I was blind but now I see!"

26Then they asked him, "What did he do to you? How did he open your eyes?"

27He answered, "I have told you already and you did not listen. Why do you want to hear it again? Do you want to become his disciples, too?"

28Then they hurled insults at him and said, "You are this fellow's disciple! We are disciples of Moses! 29We know that God spoke to Moses, but as for this fellow, we don't even know where he comes from."

30The man answered, "Now that is remarkable! You don't know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly man who does his will. 32Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33If this man were not from God, he could do nothing."

34To this they replied, "You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!" And they threw him out.

Spiritual Blindness
35Jesus heard that they had thrown him out, and when he found him, he said, "Do you believe in the Son of Man?"
36"Who is he, sir?" the man asked. "Tell me so that I may believe in him."

37Jesus said, "You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you."

38Then the man said, "Lord, I believe," and he worshiped him.

39Jesus said, "For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind."

40Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, "What? Are we blind too?"

41Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.






John 10 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 10
The Shepherd and His Flock
1"I tell you the truth, the man who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber. 2The man who enters by the gate is the shepherd of his sheep. 3The watchman opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. 5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger's voice." 6Jesus used this figure of speech, but they did not understand what he was telling them.
7Therefore Jesus said again, "I tell you the truth, I am the gate for the sheep. 8All who ever came before me were thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. 9I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.[a] He will come in and go out, and find pasture. 10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.

11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. 12The hired hand is not the shepherd who owns the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it. 13The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.

14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 17The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again. 18No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father."

19At these words the Jews were again divided. 20Many of them said, "He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?"

21But others said, "These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?"

The Unbelief of the Jews
22Then came the Feast of Dedication[b] at Jerusalem. It was winter, 23and Jesus was in the temple area walking in Solomon's Colonnade. 24The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ,[c] tell us plainly."
25Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. 29My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all[d]; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. 30I and the Father are one."

31Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, 32but Jesus said to them, "I have shown you many great miracles from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?"

33"We are not stoning you for any of these," replied the Jews, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

34Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'[e]? 35If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken— 36what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, 'I am God's Son'? 37Do not believe me unless I do what my Father does. 38But if I do it, even though you do not believe me, believe the miracles, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father." 39Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

40Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. Here he stayed 41and many people came to him. They said, "Though John never performed a miraculous sign, all that John said about this man was true." 42And in that place many believed in Jesus.






John 11 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 11
The Death of Lazarus
1Now a man named Lazarus was sick. He was from Bethany, the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 2This Mary, whose brother Lazarus now lay sick, was the same one who poured perfume on the Lord and wiped his feet with her hair. 3So the sisters sent word to Jesus, "Lord, the one you love is sick."
4When he heard this, Jesus said, "This sickness will not end in death. No, it is for God's glory so that God's Son may be glorified through it." 5Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6Yet when he heard that Lazarus was sick, he stayed where he was two more days.

7Then he said to his disciples, "Let us go back to Judea."

8"But Rabbi," they said, "a short while ago the Jews tried to stone you, and yet you are going back there?"

9Jesus answered, "Are there not twelve hours of daylight? A man who walks by day will not stumble, for he sees by this world's light. 10It is when he walks by night that he stumbles, for he has no light."

11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."

12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." 13Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep.

14So then he told them plainly, "Lazarus is dead, 15and for your sake I am glad I was not there, so that you may believe. But let us go to him."

16Then Thomas (called Didymus) said to the rest of the disciples, "Let us also go, that we may die with him."

Jesus Comforts the Sisters
17On his arrival, Jesus found that Lazarus had already been in the tomb for four days. 18Bethany was less than two miles[a] from Jerusalem, 19and many Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them in the loss of their brother. 20When Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went out to meet him, but Mary stayed at home.
21"Lord," Martha said to Jesus, "if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22But I know that even now God will give you whatever you ask."

23Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."

24Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

25Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"

27"Yes, Lord," she told him, "I believe that you are the Christ,[b] the Son of God, who was to come into the world."

28And after she had said this, she went back and called her sister Mary aside. "The Teacher is here," she said, "and is asking for you." 29When Mary heard this, she got up quickly and went to him. 30Now Jesus had not yet entered the village, but was still at the place where Martha had met him. 31When the Jews who had been with Mary in the house, comforting her, noticed how quickly she got up and went out, they followed her, supposing she was going to the tomb to mourn there.

32When Mary reached the place where Jesus was and saw him, she fell at his feet and said, "Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died."

33When Jesus saw her weeping, and the Jews who had come along with her also weeping, he was deeply moved in spirit and troubled. 34"Where have you laid him?" he asked.
"Come and see, Lord," they replied.

35Jesus wept.

36Then the Jews said, "See how he loved him!"

37But some of them said, "Could not he who opened the eyes of the blind man have kept this man from dying?"

Jesus Raises Lazarus From the Dead
38Jesus, once more deeply moved, came to the tomb. It was a cave with a stone laid across the entrance. 39"Take away the stone," he said.
"But, Lord," said Martha, the sister of the dead man, "by this time there is a bad odor, for he has been there four days."
40Then Jesus said, "Did I not tell you that if you believed, you would see the glory of God?"

41So they took away the stone. Then Jesus looked up and said, "Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42I knew that you always hear me, but I said this for the benefit of the people standing here, that they may believe that you sent me."

43When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, "Lazarus, come out!" 44The dead man came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face.
Jesus said to them, "Take off the grave clothes and let him go."

The Plot to Kill Jesus
45Therefore many of the Jews who had come to visit Mary, and had seen what Jesus did, put their faith in him. 46But some of them went to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done. 47Then the chief priests and the Pharisees called a meeting of the Sanhedrin.
"What are we accomplishing?" they asked. "Here is this man performing many miraculous signs. 48If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and then the Romans will come and take away both our place[c] and our nation."

49Then one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, spoke up, "You know nothing at all! 50You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish."

51He did not say this on his own, but as high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the Jewish nation, 52and not only for that nation but also for the scattered children of God, to bring them together and make them one. 53So from that day on they plotted to take his life.

54Therefore Jesus no longer moved about publicly among the Jews. Instead he withdrew to a region near the desert, to a village called Ephraim, where he stayed with his disciples.

55When it was almost time for the Jewish Passover, many went up from the country to Jerusalem for their ceremonial cleansing before the Passover. 56They kept looking for Jesus, and as they stood in the temple area they asked one another, "What do you think? Isn't he coming to the Feast at all?" 57But the chief priests and Pharisees had given orders that if anyone found out where Jesus was, he should report it so that they might arrest him.






John 12 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 12
Jesus Anointed at Bethany
1Six days before the Passover, Jesus arrived at Bethany, where Lazarus lived, whom Jesus had raised from the dead. 2Here a dinner was given in Jesus' honor. Martha served, while Lazarus was among those reclining at the table with him. 3Then Mary took about a pint[a] of pure nard, an expensive perfume; she poured it on Jesus' feet and wiped his feet with her hair. And the house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume.
4But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, 5"Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages.[b]" 6He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

7"Leave her alone," Jesus replied. " It was intended that she should save this perfume for the day of my burial. 8You will always have the poor among you, but you will not always have me."

9Meanwhile a large crowd of Jews found out that Jesus was there and came, not only because of him but also to see Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. 10So the chief priests made plans to kill Lazarus as well, 11for on account of him many of the Jews were going over to Jesus and putting their faith in him.

The Triumphal Entry
12The next day the great crowd that had come for the Feast heard that Jesus was on his way to Jerusalem. 13They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting,
"Hosanna![c]"
"Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!"[d]
"Blessed is the King of Israel!" 14Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15"Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion;
see, your king is coming,
seated on a donkey's colt."[e]
16At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

17Now the crowd that was with him when he called Lazarus from the tomb and raised him from the dead continued to spread the word. 18Many people, because they had heard that he had given this miraculous sign, went out to meet him. 19So the Pharisees said to one another, "See, this is getting us nowhere. Look how the whole world has gone after him!"

Jesus Predicts His Death
20Now there were some Greeks among those who went up to worship at the Feast. 21They came to Philip, who was from Bethsaida in Galilee, with a request. "Sir," they said, "we would like to see Jesus." 22Philip went to tell Andrew; Andrew and Philip in turn told Jesus.
23Jesus replied, "The hour has come for the Son of Man to be glorified. 24I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. 25The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life. 26Whoever serves me must follow me; and where I am, my servant also will be. My Father will honor the one who serves me.

27"Now my heart is troubled, and what shall I say? 'Father, save me from this hour'? No, it was for this very reason I came to this hour. 28Father, glorify your name!"

Then a voice came from heaven, "I have glorified it, and will glorify it again." 29The crowd that was there and heard it said it had thundered; others said an angel had spoken to him.

30Jesus said, "This voice was for your benefit, not mine. 31Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out. 32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself." 33He said this to show the kind of death he was going to die.

34The crowd spoke up, "We have heard from the Law that the Christ[f] will remain forever, so how can you say, 'The Son of Man must be lifted up'? Who is this 'Son of Man'?"

35Then Jesus told them, "You are going to have the light just a little while longer. Walk while you have the light, before darkness overtakes you. The man who walks in the dark does not know where he is going. 36Put your trust in the light while you have it, so that you may become sons of light." When he had finished speaking, Jesus left and hid himself from them.

The Jews Continue in Their Unbelief
37Even after Jesus had done all these miraculous signs in their presence, they still would not believe in him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet:
"Lord, who has believed our message
and to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed?"[g]
39For this reason they could not believe, because, as Isaiah says elsewhere:
40"He has blinded their eyes
and deadened their hearts,
so they can neither see with their eyes,
nor understand with their hearts,
nor turn—and I would heal them."[h] 41Isaiah said this because he saw Jesus' glory and spoke about him.

42Yet at the same time many even among the leaders believed in him. But because of the Pharisees they would not confess their faith for fear they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved praise from men more than praise from God.

44Then Jesus cried out, "When a man believes in me, he does not believe in me only, but in the one who sent me. 45When he looks at me, he sees the one who sent me. 46I have come into the world as a light, so that no one who believes in me should stay in darkness.

47"As for the person who hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge him. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save it. 48There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; that very word which I spoke will condemn him at the last day. 49For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it. 50I know that his command leads to eternal life. So whatever I say is just what the Father has told me to say."







John 13 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 13
Jesus Washes His Disciples' Feet
1It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father. Having loved his own who were in the world, he now showed them the full extent of his love.[a]
2The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus. 3Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God; 4so he got up from the meal, took off his outer clothing, and wrapped a towel around his waist. 5After that, he poured water into a basin and began to wash his disciples' feet, drying them with the towel that was wrapped around him.

6He came to Simon Peter, who said to him, "Lord, are you going to wash my feet?"

7Jesus replied, "You do not realize now what I am doing, but later you will understand."

8"No," said Peter, "you shall never wash my feet."
Jesus answered, "Unless I wash you, you have no part with me."

9"Then, Lord," Simon Peter replied, "not just my feet but my hands and my head as well!"

10Jesus answered, "A person who has had a bath needs only to wash his feet; his whole body is clean. And you are clean, though not every one of you." 11For he knew who was going to betray him, and that was why he said not every one was clean.

12When he had finished washing their feet, he put on his clothes and returned to his place. "Do you understand what I have done for you?" he asked them. 13"You call me 'Teacher' and 'Lord,' and rightly so, for that is what I am. 14Now that I, your Lord and Teacher, have washed your feet, you also should wash one another's feet. 15I have set you an example that you should do as I have done for you. 16I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him. 17Now that you know these things, you will be blessed if you do them.

Jesus Predicts His Betrayal
18"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.'[b]
19"I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He. 20I tell you the truth, whoever accepts anyone I send accepts me; and whoever accepts me accepts the one who sent me."

21After he had said this, Jesus was troubled in spirit and testified, "I tell you the truth, one of you is going to betray me."

22His disciples stared at one another, at a loss to know which of them he meant. 23One of them, the disciple whom Jesus loved, was reclining next to him. 24Simon Peter motioned to this disciple and said, "Ask him which one he means."

25Leaning back against Jesus, he asked him, "Lord, who is it?"

26Jesus answered, "It is the one to whom I will give this piece of bread when I have dipped it in the dish." Then, dipping the piece of bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, son of Simon. 27As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

"What you are about to do, do quickly," Jesus told him, 28but no one at the meal understood why Jesus said this to him. 29Since Judas had charge of the money, some thought Jesus was telling him to buy what was needed for the Feast, or to give something to the poor. 30As soon as Judas had taken the bread, he went out. And it was night.

Jesus Predicts Peter's Denial
31When he was gone, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified and God is glorified in him. 32If God is glorified in him,[c] God will glorify the Son in himself, and will glorify him at once.
33"My children, I will be with you only a little longer. You will look for me, and just as I told the Jews, so I tell you now: Where I am going, you cannot come.

34"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another."

36Simon Peter asked him, "Lord, where are you going?"
Jesus replied, "Where I am going, you cannot follow now, but you will follow later."

37Peter asked, "Lord, why can't I follow you now? I will lay down my life for you."

38Then Jesus answered, "Will you really lay down your life for me? I tell you the truth, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times!




John 14 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 14
Jesus Comforts His Disciples
1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."
Jesus the Way to the Father
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"
6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."
22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
"Come now; let us leave.






John 15 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 15
The Vine and the Branches
1"I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes[a] so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5"I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.

The World Hates the Disciples
18"If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20Remember the words I spoke to you: 'No servant is greater than his master.'[b] If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the One who sent me. 22If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin. Now, however, they have no excuse for their sin. 23He who hates me hates my Father as well. 24If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: 'They hated me without reason.'[c]
26"When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me. 27And you also must testify, for you have been with me from the beginning.






John 16 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 16
1"All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you. I did not tell you this at first because I was with you.

The Work of the Holy Spirit
5"Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' 6Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. 7But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you. 8When he comes, he will convict the world of guilt[a] in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment: 9in regard to sin, because men do not believe in me; 10in regard to righteousness, because I am going to the Father, where you can see me no longer; 11and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.

16"In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me."

The Disciples' Grief Will Turn to Joy
17Some of his disciples said to one another, "What does he mean by saying, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,' and 'Because I am going to the Father'?" 18They kept asking, "What does he mean by 'a little while'? We don't understand what he is saying."
19Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, "Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me'? 20I tell you the truth, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy. 21A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but when her baby is born she forgets the anguish because of her joy that a child is born into the world. 22So with you: Now is your time of grief, but I will see you again and you will rejoice, and no one will take away your joy. 23In that day you will no longer ask me anything. I tell you the truth, my Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 24Until now you have not asked for anything in my name. Ask and you will receive, and your joy will be complete.

25"Though I have been speaking figuratively, a time is coming when I will no longer use this kind of language but will tell you plainly about my Father. 26In that day you will ask in my name. I am not saying that I will ask the Father on your behalf. 27No, the Father himself loves you because you have loved me and have believed that I came from God. 28I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father."

29Then Jesus' disciples said, "Now you are speaking clearly and without figures of speech. 30Now we can see that you know all things and that you do not even need to have anyone ask you questions. This makes us believe that you came from God."

31"You believe at last!"[b] Jesus answered. 32"But a time is coming, and has come, when you will be scattered, each to his own home. You will leave me all alone. Yet I am not alone, for my Father is with me.

33"I have told you these things, so that in me you may have peace. In this world you will have trouble. But take heart! I have overcome the world."






John 17 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 17
Jesus Prays for Himself
1After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. 2For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. 3Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent. 4I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
Jesus Prays for His Disciples
6"I have revealed you[a] to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word. 7Now they know that everything you have given me comes from you. 8For I gave them the words you gave me and they accepted them. They knew with certainty that I came from you, and they believed that you sent me. 9I pray for them. I am not praying for the world, but for those you have given me, for they are yours. 10All I have is yours, and all you have is mine. And glory has come to me through them. 11I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one. 12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled. 13"I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify[b] them by the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.
Jesus Prays for All Believers
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: 23I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity to let the world know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me. 24"Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world. 25"Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. 26I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."




John 18 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 18
Jesus Arrested
1When he had finished praying, Jesus left with his disciples and crossed the Kidron Valley. On the other side there was an olive grove, and he and his disciples went into it.
2Now Judas, who betrayed him, knew the place, because Jesus had often met there with his disciples. 3So Judas came to the grove, guiding a detachment of soldiers and some officials from the chief priests and Pharisees. They were carrying torches, lanterns and weapons.

4Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to him, went out and asked them, "Who is it you want?"

5"Jesus of Nazareth," they replied.

"I am he," Jesus said. (And Judas the traitor was standing there with them.) 6When Jesus said, "I am he," they drew back and fell to the ground.

7Again he asked them, "Who is it you want?"
And they said, "Jesus of Nazareth."

8"I told you that I am he," Jesus answered. "If you are looking for me, then let these men go." 9This happened so that the words he had spoken would be fulfilled: "I have not lost one of those you gave me."[a]

10Then Simon Peter, who had a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, cutting off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.)

11Jesus commanded Peter, "Put your sword away! Shall I not drink the cup the Father has given me?"

Jesus Taken to Annas
12Then the detachment of soldiers with its commander and the Jewish officials arrested Jesus. They bound him 13and brought him first to Annas, who was the father-in-law of Caiaphas, the high priest that year. 14Caiaphas was the one who had advised the Jews that it would be good if one man died for the people.
Peter's First Denial
15Simon Peter and another disciple were following Jesus. Because this disciple was known to the high priest, he went with Jesus into the high priest's courtyard, 16but Peter had to wait outside at the door. The other disciple, who was known to the high priest, came back, spoke to the girl on duty there and brought Peter in.
17"You are not one of his disciples, are you?" the girl at the door asked Peter.
He replied, "I am not."

18It was cold, and the servants and officials stood around a fire they had made to keep warm. Peter also was standing with them, warming himself.

The High Priest Questions Jesus
19Meanwhile, the high priest questioned Jesus about his disciples and his teaching.
20"I have spoken openly to the world," Jesus replied. "I always taught in synagogues or at the temple, where all the Jews come together. I said nothing in secret. 21Why question me? Ask those who heard me. Surely they know what I said."

22When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded.

23"If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" 24Then Annas sent him, still bound, to Caiaphas the high priest.[b]

Peter's Second and Third Denials
25As Simon Peter stood warming himself, he was asked, "You are not one of his disciples, are you?"
He denied it, saying, "I am not."
26One of the high priest's servants, a relative of the man whose ear Peter had cut off, challenged him, "Didn't I see you with him in the olive grove?" 27Again Peter denied it, and at that moment a rooster began to crow.

Jesus Before Pilate
28Then the Jews led Jesus from Caiaphas to the palace of the Roman governor. By now it was early morning, and to avoid ceremonial uncleanness the Jews did not enter the palace; they wanted to be able to eat the Passover. 29So Pilate came out to them and asked, "What charges are you bringing against this man?"
30"If he were not a criminal," they replied, "we would not have handed him over to you."

31Pilate said, "Take him yourselves and judge him by your own law."

"But we have no right to execute anyone," the Jews objected. 32This happened so that the words Jesus had spoken indicating the kind of death he was going to die would be fulfilled.

33Pilate then went back inside the palace, summoned Jesus and asked him, "Are you the king of the Jews?"

34"Is that your own idea," Jesus asked, "or did others talk to you about me?"

35"Am I a Jew?" Pilate replied. "It was your people and your chief priests who handed you over to me. What is it you have done?"

36Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

37"You are a king, then!" said Pilate.
Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king. In fact, for this reason I was born, and for this I came into the world, to testify to the truth. Everyone on the side of truth listens to me."

38"What is truth?" Pilate asked. With this he went out again to the Jews and said, "I find no basis for a charge against him. 39But it is your custom for me to release to you one prisoner at the time of the Passover. Do you want me to release 'the king of the Jews'?"

40They shouted back, "No, not him! Give us Barabbas!" Now Barabbas had taken part in a rebellion.






John 19 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 19
Jesus Sentenced to be Crucified
1Then Pilate took Jesus and had him flogged. 2The soldiers twisted together a crown of thorns and put it on his head. They clothed him in a purple robe 3and went up to him again and again, saying, "Hail, king of the Jews!" And they struck him in the face.
4Once more Pilate came out and said to the Jews, "Look, I am bringing him out to you to let you know that I find no basis for a charge against him." 5When Jesus came out wearing the crown of thorns and the purple robe, Pilate said to them, "Here is the man!"

6As soon as the chief priests and their officials saw him, they shouted, "Crucify! Crucify!"
But Pilate answered, "You take him and crucify him. As for me, I find no basis for a charge against him."

7The Jews insisted, "We have a law, and according to that law he must die, because he claimed to be the Son of God."

8When Pilate heard this, he was even more afraid, 9and he went back inside the palace. "Where do you come from?" he asked Jesus, but Jesus gave him no answer. 10"Do you refuse to speak to me?" Pilate said. "Don't you realize I have power either to free you or to crucify you?"

11Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin."

12From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, "If you let this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar."

13When Pilate heard this, he brought Jesus out and sat down on the judge's seat at a place known as the Stone Pavement (which in Aramaic is Gabbatha). 14It was the day of Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.
"Here is your king," Pilate said to the Jews.

15But they shouted, "Take him away! Take him away! Crucify him!"
"Shall I crucify your king?" Pilate asked.
"We have no king but Caesar," the chief priests answered.

16Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.

The Crucifixion
So the soldiers took charge of Jesus. 17Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). 18Here they crucified him, and with him two others—one on each side and Jesus in the middle.
19Pilate had a notice prepared and fastened to the cross. It read:|sc JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 20Many of the Jews read this sign, for the place where Jesus was crucified was near the city, and the sign was written in Aramaic, Latin and Greek. 21The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate, "Do not write 'The King of the Jews,' but that this man claimed to be king of the Jews."

22Pilate answered, "What I have written, I have written."

23When the soldiers crucified Jesus, they took his clothes, dividing them into four shares, one for each of them, with the undergarment remaining. This garment was seamless, woven in one piece from top to bottom.

24"Let's not tear it," they said to one another. "Let's decide by lot who will get it."
This happened that the scripture might be fulfilled which said,
"They divided my garments among them
and cast lots for my clothing."[a] So this is what the soldiers did.

25Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to his mother, "Dear woman, here is your son," 27and to the disciple, "Here is your mother." From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.

The Death of Jesus
28Later, knowing that all was now completed, and so that the Scripture would be fulfilled, Jesus said, "I am thirsty." 29A jar of wine vinegar was there, so they soaked a sponge in it, put the sponge on a stalk of the hyssop plant, and lifted it to Jesus' lips. 30When he had received the drink, Jesus said, "It is finished." With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
31Now it was the day of Preparation, and the next day was to be a special Sabbath. Because the Jews did not want the bodies left on the crosses during the Sabbath, they asked Pilate to have the legs broken and the bodies taken down. 32The soldiers therefore came and broke the legs of the first man who had been crucified with Jesus, and then those of the other. 33But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs. 34Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water. 35The man who saw it has given testimony, and his testimony is true. He knows that he tells the truth, and he testifies so that you also may believe. 36These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken,"[b] 37and, as another scripture says, "They will look on the one they have pierced."[c]

The Burial of Jesus
38Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus. Now Joseph was a disciple of Jesus, but secretly because he feared the Jews. With Pilate's permission, he came and took the body away. 39He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about seventy-five pounds.[d] 40Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs. 41At the place where Jesus was crucified, there was a garden, and in the garden a new tomb, in which no one had ever been laid. 42Because it was the Jewish day of Preparation and since the tomb was nearby, they laid Jesus there.





John 20 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 20
The Empty Tomb
1Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. 2So she came running to Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"
3So Peter and the other disciple started for the tomb. 4Both were running, but the other disciple outran Peter and reached the tomb first. 5He bent over and looked in at the strips of linen lying there but did not go in. 6Then Simon Peter, who was behind him, arrived and went into the tomb. He saw the strips of linen lying there, 7as well as the burial cloth that had been around Jesus' head. The cloth was folded up by itself, separate from the linen. 8Finally the other disciple, who had reached the tomb first, also went inside. He saw and believed. 9(They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)

Jesus Appears to Mary Magdalene
10Then the disciples went back to their homes, 11but Mary stood outside the tomb crying. As she wept, she bent over to look into the tomb 12and saw two angels in white, seated where Jesus' body had been, one at the head and the other at the foot.
13They asked her, "Woman, why are you crying?"

"They have taken my Lord away," she said, "and I don't know where they have put him." 14At this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not realize that it was Jesus.

15"Woman," he said, "why are you crying? Who is it you are looking for?"
Thinking he was the gardener, she said, "Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have put him, and I will get him."

16Jesus said to her, "Mary."
She turned toward him and cried out in Aramaic, "Rabboni!" (which means Teacher).

17Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.' "

18Mary Magdalene went to the disciples with the news: "I have seen the Lord!" And she told them that he had said these things to her.

Jesus Appears to His Disciples
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you." 22And with that he breathed on them and said, "Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."

Jesus Appears to Thomas
24Now Thomas (called Didymus), one of the Twelve, was not with the disciples when Jesus came. 25So the other disciples told him, "We have seen the Lord!"
But he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it."
26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."

28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"

29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

30Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31But these are written that you may[a] believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.






John 21 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)
Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society



John 21
Jesus and the Miraculous Catch of Fish
1Afterward Jesus appeared again to his disciples, by the Sea of Tiberias.[a] It happened this way: 2Simon Peter, Thomas (called Didymus), Nathanael from Cana in Galilee, the sons of Zebedee, and two other disciples were together. 3"I'm going out to fish," Simon Peter told them, and they said, "We'll go with you." So they went out and got into the boat, but that night they caught nothing.
4Early in the morning, Jesus stood on the shore, but the disciples did not realize that it was Jesus.

5He called out to them, "Friends, haven't you any fish?"
"No," they answered.

6He said, "Throw your net on the right side of the boat and you will find some." When they did, they were unable to haul the net in because of the large number of fish.

7Then the disciple whom Jesus loved said to Peter, "It is the Lord!" As soon as Simon Peter heard him say, "It is the Lord," he wrapped his outer garment around him (for he had taken it off) and jumped into the water. 8The other disciples followed in the boat, towing the net full of fish, for they were not far from shore, about a hundred yards.[b] 9When they landed, they saw a fire of burning coals there with fish on it, and some bread.

10Jesus said to them, "Bring some of the fish you have just caught."

11Simon Peter climbed aboard and dragged the net ashore. It was full of large fish, 153, but even with so many the net was not torn. 12Jesus said to them, "Come and have breakfast." None of the disciples dared ask him, "Who are you?" They knew it was the Lord. 13Jesus came, took the bread and gave it to them, and did the same with the fish. 14This was now the third time Jesus appeared to his disciples after he was raised from the dead.

Jesus Reinstates Peter
15When they had finished eating, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me more than these?"
"Yes, Lord," he said, "you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Feed my lambs."
16Again Jesus said, "Simon son of John, do you truly love me?"
He answered, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you."
Jesus said, "Take care of my sheep."

17The third time he said to him, "Simon son of John, do you love me?"
Peter was hurt because Jesus asked him the third time, "Do you love me?" He said, "Lord, you know all things; you know that I love you."

18Jesus said, "Feed my sheep. I tell you the truth, when you were younger you dressed yourself and went where you wanted; but when you are old you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and lead you where you do not want to go." 19Jesus said this to indicate the kind of death by which Peter would glorify God. Then he said to him, "Follow me!"

20Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, "Lord, who is going to betray you?") 21When Peter saw him, he asked, "Lord, what about him?"

22Jesus answered, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me." 23Because of this, the rumor spread among the brothers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, "If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?"

24This is the disciple who testifies to these things and who wrote them down. We know that his testimony is true.

25Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
[i][i] 16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[h]

Right there my initial and first objection to Christianity.

You can be born in Africa in the middle of the jungle, live a beautiful life helping your fellow man. When you die since you never worshipped Jesus even though you had never even heard of him, it's torture and damnation time...

[Angel]

Sesh, my admiration grows for you every time religion is brought up. Personally, I think the world would be a better place if ancestors like my own had adopted the native american beliefs as opposed to taking away their culture and forcing christianity on them.

I'll see ya in hell, Sesh! ;) (and frankly, if people like BBB are going to be in heaven, I wouldn't want to be there anyway!)

:gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Angel
Sesh, my admiration grows for you every time religion is brought up. Personally, I think the world would be a better place if ancestors like my own had adopted the native american beliefs as opposed to taking away their culture and forcing christianity on them.



Nobody can force Christianity on anyone. It has to be accepted into one's heart with one's own freewill.

Now go read the Bible, you heathen Bitch!

:gulp:

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian


Now go read the Bible, you heathen Bitch!



Yes, that will bring souls to My message of love :rolleyes:

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Right there my initial and first objection to Christianity.

You can be born in Africa in the middle of the jungle, live a beautiful life helping your fellow man. When you die since you never worshipped Jesus even though you had never even heard of him, it's torture and damnation time...

Um, don't "initial" and "first" mean the same thing, bro? lmmfao.

Man, that is a pretty weak argument for being the foundation for your discounting of the scripture as a whole.

For one, I don't believe for a second that Africans never heard of Jesus Christ. the only way that would be "humanly" possible is if those who were sent to "all" of the world to preach the good news, didn't do as they were instructed.
And who's to say that they weren't told and just refused to accept it as you do?

Secondly, God could intervene at any point in time he wanted to, to insure the knowledge was given to them.

And even at that, God is a forgiving God and there is no way he would hold people accountable for the ignorance they could do nothing about.

Your argument does however make sense based on the narrow space you give for explanation.
The only thing i can see about your point of view is that your mind is closed to the possibility that there is an explanation you just don't understand.

Brotha', I respect you a ton, but you have got to stop leaning to your own understanding.
I gave that practice up and with my studies find myself pitted against 98% of the so-called Christians i encounter on a daily basis.

But i think more of the problem is that you have found comfort from those who think in similar terms as you do, and with comfort comes contentment...not much motivation to move forward comes from being content.

The bottom line here is that I don't have the answers either.
But by chucking everything that has been taught to me since birth, and re-learning everything through doubt and proving what i take to heart, a different level of understanding has been accomplished.

I did learn that though the scripture is confusing and seems contradictory at times. if you break it down and really research those areas that trouble you with an open mind, the truth isn't hard to find, and it will fit.

I think people make it more complicated than it really is because the same thing happened to me.

First of all, stop listening to those who have no desire to do the work, and then pray for spiritual understanding to assist you in "getting it".

Or you can just say, "Screw You, Cat, You're More Of A Lost Cause Than I Am!"

Bu the choice is your's, and you alone will answer, or not, for that choice.

Just be sure of what you believe, and make sure you have exhausted all avenues where the answer could be waiting.

[Jesus Christ]

Take this from the Highest Authority, My children....

Nobody will stand in judgment of something they hath no way of knowing. And may I remind you all that it is I, the Messiah, who will be doing that judging.

[Unchainme]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Take this from the Highest Authority, My children....

Nobody will stand in judgment of something they hath no way of knowing. And may I remind you all that it is I, the Messiah, who will be doing that judging.

Amen Jesus, 5 Stars To You My Savior and Lord ;)

[Angel]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Nobody can force Christianity on anyone. It has to be accepted into one's heart with one's own freewill.

Oh, like our natives? We took them away from their culture, put them in residential schools where they were beaten, abused, raped and tortured until they accepted God & Jesus. Don't you EVER tell me that Christianity isn't forced on anyone!!!


Now go read the Bible, you heathen Bitch!

I'm too old for fairy tales, and I much prefer to read the writings of the person who wrote this:

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; You are the one that gets burned."

Have a nice day, Brian. May peace be with you.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Um, don't "initial" and "first" mean the same thing, bro? lmmfao.



That kind of occurred to me when I was posting it...:)

The actual story was I was about to bang this strict baptist when I was 16 and I said I'm not too sure about this strict christianity thing, but I live a good enough life and try to be nice to people. She said I would be damned and brought out that passage to prove it. I was appalled that it was in there and started to move from agnostic to atheist.

Worse still I ended up not getting a fuck(and you know how desparately important that is when you're 16) because I never fell into line.

I walked out her bedroom with my integrity but within 5 minutes I felt like shooting myself for being so dumb...:)

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Um, don't "initial" and "first" mean the same thing, bro? lmmfao.

Man, that is a pretty weak argument for being the foundation for your discounting of the scripture as a whole.

For one, I don't believe for a second that Africans never heard of Jesus Christ. the only way that would be "humanly" possible is if those who were sent to "all" of the world to preach the good news, didn't do as they were instructed.
And who's to say that they weren't told and just refused to accept it as you do?


That was a simplistic version of the argument for effect.

Let's look at it this way, if you are born in Saudi Arabia as a muslim it seems pretty unfair of God to send you to damnsation for not becoming a Christian. Why if there is a correct religion does the map of the world show that your religion depends so much on the accident of where you are born?

Or say you live in the Amazon with a peg through your nose untouched by missionaries? And it's the fault of the people that didn't spread the good news?

Also what about all the people in Europe before the church was established were they damned?

And the jews are they now going to hell even though supposedly he thought they were the coolest folk around even to the exten of killing 10s of thousands of their enemies(who were probably conscripts).

You say God could intervene but that's the point he never does.

For the very religious he does interven but only with good shit. So someone is saved from a difficult situation and god was looking after them yet when a kid dies for a senseless reason it's nothing to do with him?

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Brotha', I respect you a ton, but you have got to stop leaning to your own understanding.
I gave that practice up and with my studies find myself pitted against 98% of the so-called Christians i encounter on a daily basis.

But i think more of the problem is that you have found comfort from those who think in similar terms as you do, and with comfort comes contentment...not much motivation to move forward comes from being content.


Same back to you, I totally respect the fact you have questioned things and are trying to do it the right way.

The one thing I don't have is comfort. Most of the people I know I completely secular. That's different from being atheist, they just don't think about it at all one way or the other. Then I have my older friends and relatives and they are from the Christian sheep school where they don't think about things but go along each week and sing a song then come out with racist shit or other actions which makes me think that their church going is just a habit more than a spiritual thing.

I've come up with my whole viewpoint by myself and pretty much the only place I discuss it is online. If I bring up life the universe and everything with the people I know they look at me a bit strangely and wonder how much I've had to drink.

I think all of the above ae just coping mechanisms people use and they're probably right because it's all a bit of a waste of time.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Take this from the Highest Authority, My children....

Nobody will stand in judgment of something they hath no way of knowing. And may I remind you all that it is I, the Messiah, who will be doing that judging.


That's one thing we are in agreement of....FORD.

:gulp:

[Warham]

God has mercy on who he will have mercy.

I believe God decides who he wants to save. In other words, I believe in predestination. I believe that a person who believes in Jesus Christ does so because God the Father placed that desire in his heart. If you do not have the desire, you will not come to Christ.

But I also believe that once you come to Christ and take Him as your savior, he will never leave your heart. Once you are in his hands, you will not be dropped. People may backslide from their faith at that point, but they will always know Jesus is in their heart.

That's what I believe, at least on that point.

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by aesop
ADULTERY: "Fire in the Bosom"
The seventh of the ten commandments ("Thou shalt not commit adultery" [Ex. 20:15, Deut. 5:18]) does not refer to adultery as generally thought of today. In the Old Testament a married man, but not a married woman, could have sex outside of marriage and not be an adulterer. Under the Hebrew patriarchal system, a man commits adultery only if the sex is with another man's wife or virginal betrothed--in effect a property crime analogous, as Judith Romney Wegner puts it, to stealing the other man's cow. (On women as property, see GENDER.)
The penalty for adultery is death for both parties (Lev. 20:10; Deut. 22:22). In the case of a betrothed virgin, she is considered guilty of consent, and is therefore to die with the man, if the incident occurred in the city and she did not scream for help (Deut. 22:23-27).

Ok so God is gulity of adultery, as he fucked Joseph's Wife Mary to impregnate her so she would give birth to Jesus, right?




Originally posted by aesop
Adultery is often used in the Old Testament as a metaphor for the unfaithfulness toward God of the people of Israel and Judah, who "go a-whoring after other gods" (Judg. 2:17). God speaks in Jer. 3:8 of divorcing Israel for her adultery, then "her treacherous sister Judah . . . played the harlot also." The prophet Hosea deliberately marries an adulteress to dramatize God's dilemma with the backsliding children of Israel.

The adultery metaphor takes its most graphic form in Ezekiel 23, describing in detail the allegorical promiscuity of the sisters Oholah and Oholibah, adulterous wives of Yahweh.


Ok, so Adultery is alive and well in the house of Yahweh, but humans are not allowed to indulge? WTF???


Originally posted by aesop
The book of Proverbs extols the wisdom of avoiding adulterous situations. "Can a man take fire in his bosom," it asks, "and his clothes not be burned?" (Adultery "is a fire," says Job [31:12], "that consumeth to destruction.") The commandment against adultery, we are told in Proverbs, helps "keep thee from the evil woman." The book describes "a young man devoid of understanding" who is lured to the house of "a woman with the attire of an harlot." Catching him and kissing him, she says, "I have decked my bed . . . with fine linen of Egypt . . . Come, let us take our fill of love until the morning," for "(my husband) is not at home." But though "stolen waters are sweet," says Proverbs, "he that goeth in to his neighbour's wife . . . lacketh understanding," and the house of the adulteress "is the way to hell" (6:23-32, 7:4-27).


So the above is a description of God? "A young man void of understanding"??? And a description of Mary? "An evil woman with the attire of an harlot."???

Ok so this next paragraph says it all...




Originally posted by aesop
Not only is the seventh commandment reaffirmed in the New Testament (Matt. 19:18, Luke 18:20, Rom. 13:9, James 2:11), but adultery is broadened to include even thinking about committing it. "Whoever looks at a woman with lust," says Jesus Christ in Matt. 5:28, "has committed adultery with her already in his heart." Jesus also states that adultery includes remarriage after divorce (Matt. 19:9, Luke 16:18).

So, if (as many Christian Zealot assholes believe) God knew what would happen for the entire history of man when he created the Earth (foreknowledge), the above says that God was thinking about adultery...BILLIONS OF YEARS BEFORE HE FUCKED MARY!



Originally posted by aesop
Still, one of the Bible's best-known passages speaks of forgiveness for adultery (as for all sin), not punishment. Scribes and Pharisees bring to Jesus "a woman taken in adultery, in the very act" (John 8:3-11). They remind him that an adulteress should be stoned, "but what do you say?"

"Let him who is without sin among you," replies Jesus, "cast the first stone." The accusers leave one by one, leaving none to condemn her. "Neither do I condemn you," Jesus tells the adulteress. "Go, and sin no more."

Yeah...
it is easy for Jesus to say, but if it were up to God, the woman would be put to death.

:rolleyes:

Buncha fucking hypocrites.

Just like Catholic Priests standing there mumbling their bullshit in Sunday Mass after sucking the pee-pees of their altar boys....

:rolleyes:

[Hardrock69]

Anyhoo, it would take a fairly erudite (smart, well-learned and clever) preacher man to survive the questioning I could put to him, as 99.9% of all preachers out there are fairly ignorant.

By that I mean it is not enough to have the Bubble down by rote memorizing.

One must also take into account the entire history of the New & Old Testament, as well as the original writings in Aramaic, Hebrew & Greek.

The overriding factor is faith in something that cannot be seen, touched, felt, etc.

A man can have just as much faith in the word "Butt-Love" as any Christian can in the word "GEE-ZUSSss".

JESUS IS DEAD.

IF he ever existed to begin with, and IF he was even crucified, and even if he WAS crucified and survived...HE IS STILL DEAD!

Anyone who has faith in JESUS does NOT have faith in a LIVING BEING (or a living God for that matter).

JESUS is simply a word. A name. Certainly it is just a word, as Jesus is not what is name really was.


It is fairly easy to dissect the inaccuracies of the Bible, and pretty much destroy the flawed logic that the Catholic Faith is based upon.

I say Catholic, because all Christian religions derive from the Catholics, as that was the ONLY Christian Religion for well over 1,000 years.

The only one that was "allowed" anyway.

And it was based on a pack of political lies and myths created for the sole purpose of ruling the Roman Empire.

So....

If any Preacher cometh to these shores, armed with the standard Gospel of The King James Version of The HOLEE BOOK...they are wasting their breath.

It is a waste of my time to discuss Christianity with those who are ignorant of it, even as they profess to be learned.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Hardrock69


JESUS IS DEAD.



No.

He is not.

The only thing dead is your heart and the apparent need to bash the beliefs of others....again. :rolleyes:

I guess some people must be feeling a little "inadequate." :D

Whatever gets you off, dude.

Have a nice afterlife....bring lots of suntan lotion.

:gulp:

[Warham]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Ok so God is gulity of adultery, as he fucked Joseph's Wife Mary to impregnate her so she would give birth to Jesus, right?

Wrong! Mary wasn't yet married to Joseph when she became pregnant.

You need to do some Bible research before even getting started.

[Seshmeister]

This Mary fucking thing still seems a bit immoral if it was the guys fiancee.

But of course the reason it's in there is to keep pace with all the man/god mythic histories which go all the way back to Greek myths with Zeus banging Achilles mother etc etc.

No to mention the cult of Mithras which the early christians copied their whole nativity story from.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Anyhoo, it would take a fairly erudite (smart, well-learned and clever) preacher man to survive the questioning I could put to him, as 99.9% of all preachers out there are fairly ignorant.

That's total bullshit...

You are fairly ignorant...

My Pastor, Danny Knight is brilliant in many subjects and can do just about anything, and he's been there and done that too...

One must also take into account the entire history of the New & Old Testament, as well as the original writings in Aramaic, Hebrew & Greek.

You underestimate alot of real Christians with your sweeping generalizations...

The overriding factor is faith in something that cannot be seen, touched, felt, etc.

Faith requires work on the part of the believer, not to be saved, but to grow...

Every man is born with a seed of faith the size of a mustard seed, planted by God, and It is our responsibility to grow that seed...

A man can have just as much faith in the word "Butt-Love" as any Christian can in the word "GEE-ZUSSss".

JESUS IS DEAD.

You sir, are not very bright...

IF he ever existed to begin with, and IF he was even crucified, and even if he WAS crucified and survived...HE IS STILL DEAD!

Jesus Is absolutely alive, just as the Father is alive...

Anyone who has faith in JESUS does NOT have faith in a LIVING BEING (or a living God for that matter).

JESUS is simply a word. A name. Certainly it is just a word, as Jesus is not what is name really was.

Jesus Is the Savior of mankind, No one will get to God the Father, or Heaven except through him...

It is fairly easy to dissect the inaccuracies of the Bible, and pretty much destroy the flawed logic that the Catholic Faith is based upon.

I say Catholic, because all Christian religions derive from the Catholics, as that was the ONLY Christian Religion for well over 1,000 years.

Catholic doctrine has little to do with true Biblical Christianity...

None of the Protestant demoninations are derived from Catholicism...

I am a non-demoninational Born Again Christian...

So....

If any Preacher cometh to these shores, armed with the standard Gospel of The King James Version of The HOLEE BOOK...they are wasting their breath.

And you're freely giving your soul to Satan and going to Hell...

It is a waste of my time to discuss Christianity with those who are ignorant of it, even as they profess to be learned.

Look in the mirror...





:elvis:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
:elvis:
Catholic doctrine has little to do with true Biblical Christianity...

None of the Protestant demoninations are derived from Catholicism...


That's not true most of them are. Look at the Anglicans, they even wear the same silly costumes.

By the time the protestants got a hold of the bible fuck knows what had been changed by the catholics. A lot of anti woman stuff and ways to justify the church making a lot of cash for a start...

[ELVIS]

I shouldn't have said none...

How 'bout Nun...


Hardhead69 had me pissed off with his ignorance...

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I shouldn't have said none...

How 'bout Nun...


Hardhead69 had me pissed off with his ignorance... Religion is ignorance.

People believing that a guy who got nailed to a tree 2000 years ago because he was an obnoxious dick was actually the son of some kind of god really cracks me up!

[ELVIS]

Is that right ??

[Seshmeister]

Who knows?

There's no evidence one way or the other...

[Seshmeister]

Shouldn't you be out with Danny Knight's amazing water skiing stunt rescue team tonight?;)

[ELVIS]

That's not really all that far off...:D

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
Religion is ignorance.

People believing that a guy who got nailed to a tree 2000 years ago because he was an obnoxious dick was actually the son of some kind of god really cracks me up!


What really cracks me up is some ugly Kraut always coming on a message board bragging about how he is banging young chicks when we all full know well grown men don't need to boast of such things.

Now that's funny. :D

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
That's not really all that far off...:D

BTW did you know a google of his name comes up with you talking about him in a thread here...?

[Nitro Express]

Is there life after death? Blow your brains out and find out.

[Hardrock69]

Ok if Jesus is alive, morons, what is his address? What kind of shoes does he wear? Does he smoke?

What kind of car does he drive?

Why is he not on CNN?

Can't answer?

Of course not...he is a pile of dusty bones somewhere in the Middle East....

I can just as easily claim that King Solomon is alive. Or The Emperor Marcus Aurelius.

Or Ramses II. Or Alexander the Great.

But to do so would be ignorant.

Who is ignorant, eh Elvis?

KentuckyKlira hit the nail on the head.

Feel free to bash me all you want, but that does not change the fact that the entire Chrisitianity Raised From The Dead Saviour crap is just a fairy tale, created in the early part of the First Millenium by the usual power elite to keep the sheep in line.

Believe or burn in Hell? That is the dumbest fucking thing anyone who claims to be a Christian could say.

If anyone will burn, it is the hypocritical assholes with their holier-than-thou attitudes....

I will repeat....a majority of Christians do not have a clue...they simply buy into the Fairy Tale fed them by the local Minister who passes the collection plate.

I will not say Christianity is entirely a bad thing. Humans need some kind of moral code to live by, even if they are threatened with eternal damnation in order to force them to believe.

But nobody is required to believe anything.

Yes there are many good Chrisitans out there.

But being 'good' does not automatically give them the ultimate knowledge of Truth, or of the Mind Of God.

Lotsa Buddhists, Jews, Muslims and Agnostics out there know as much or more about Christianity than many Christians.

A third-rate archaeology student in some University could easily poke a lot of holes in the whole New Testament thing.

You do not want to believe it? That is your choice. Just makes you appear ignorant.

There is much in this world that sheeple are unaware of.

That apparently includes you, Pelvis.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Hardrock69

Lotsa Buddhists, Jews, Muslims and Agnostics out there know as much or more about Christianity than many Christians.



And lotsa Christians know more about Buddhism, Judiasm, Agnosticism, and Islam than many of their respective followers...


As for yourself, It's obvious you don't know shit from shinola, and lotsa is not a word...


Dummy...



:elvis:

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by ELVIS
And lotsa Christians know more about Buddhism, Judiasm, Agnosticism, and Islam than many of their respective followers...


As for yourself, It's obvious you don't know shit from shinola, and lotsa is not a word...


Dummy...



:elvis: Wow, incredibly intelligent response!

[Warham]

When people start referring to other people as 'morons' in any debate, it should end right there.

I know I won't be responding further in this thread.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Hardrock69


But nobody is required to believe anything.

Yes there are many good Chrisitans out there.

But being 'good' does not automatically give them the ultimate knowledge of Truth, or of the Mind Of God.



Of course not.

Yet it is you who continually comes on this site to bash Christianity.

I think it is you who are searching for something and in the process of that search feel the need to mock others. Only you can look inside yourself and answer why.

Nobody ever said Christians had the "ultimate knowledge of Truth, or of the Mind Of God."

Nobody ever said Christians were better than other people, either.

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Of course not.

Yet it is you who continually comes on this site to bash Christianity.

I think it is you who are searching for something and in the process of that search feel the need to mock others. Only you can look inside yourself and answer why.

Nobody ever said Christians had the "ultimate knowledge of Truth, or of the Mind Of God."

Nobody ever said Christians were better than other people, either.


Then why do so many "Christians" act as if that is the case? Like, say, Pelvis?

I just despise what has been done to humanity in the name of Religion.

Both followers of certain religions, and their victims.

Anyone who claims a human being is alive after 2,000 years is a retard.

If there truly was a 2,000-year-old man (aside from Mel Brooks) who was alive on this planet, he would constantly be in the news.

Where is this person?

Nowhere on this Earth.

He does not exist.

At least I am not delusional in that aspect.

No need for me to search for anything. I know what I need to know.

Pelvis, get a grip. It is ok for you to have faith in the MEMORY of someone who died 2,000 years ago.

But to claim others are 'not too bright' because they live in the real world, and understand that there are no 2,000-year-old people running around, is in itself, a demonstration of ignorance.

Brian, you are right about one thing. It is useless to try to convince some people that they should live in the real world, instead of fantasyland.

Perhaps that is my failing...that I only want sheeple to wake up and see the world for what it truly is.

I never said I was perfect.

[thome]

Interpeting the Bible is like six people sitting on a fence staring at a tree in the middle of a empty field.

No one person is looking at the same leaf on the tree,so its silly to
think anyone is going to see eye to eye on what it means.

Some see a tool for hate others joy, easy way to live life, good rules to
have a smooth stay on planet earth.

You have the rite to see whatever you want.I will recomend not reading
into it. Take it as it is not what joe church sais it means.

[Hardrock69]

True dat.

Here is some info Elvis can appreciate:

http://www.geocities.com/presleyterian_church/

[Hardrock69]

``For unto you is born this day in the city of Memphis a Presley, which is Elvis the King.'' (http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/sacred_heart_elvis.html)

[Hardrock69]

Thus Saith The Lord Elvis, "Verily I say unto you, Ye are nothing but a hound dog"

[Hardrock69]

The similarities between Jesus Christ and Elvis Presley are almost uncanny. Just check the following parallels for yourself!

* Jesus said "Love thy neighbor." Elvis said "Don't be cruel."
* Jesus is the Lord's shepherd. Elvis dated Cybill Shepherd.
* Jesus was part of the Trinity. Elvis' first band was a trio.
* Jesus walked on water. Elvis surfed (Blue Hawaii, 1965).
* Jesus' entourage, the Apostles, had 12 members. Elvis' entourage, the Memphis Mafia, had 12 members.
* Jesus was resurrected. Elvis had the famous 1968 "Comeback" TV special and many posthumous mall sightings.
* Jesus said "If a man thirst, let him come to me, and drink." (John 7:37). Elvis said "Drinks on me" (Jail House Rock, 1957).
* Jesus fasted for 40 days and nights. Elvis also had irregular eating habits (eg, 5 banana split breakfast).
* Jesus is a Capricorn (Dec 25). Elvis is a Capricorn (Jan8).
* Matthew was a biographer of Jesus. Neil Matthews was a biographer of Elvis (A Golden Tribute).
* "Jesus countenance...like lightning...raiment snow white." (Matthew 28:3) Elvis wore snow white jumpsuits with lightning bolts.
* Jesus lived in a state of grace in a near-eastern land. Elvis lived in Graceland in a nearly eastern state.
* Jesus' mother Mary had an immaculate conception. Elvis' wife Priscilla went to Immaculate Conception H.S.
* People called Jesus a "...glutton and a drunk." (Luke 7:34) People called Elvis "...an overweight druggie...".
* Jesus died for us. Young girls would 'die for' Elvis.
* Jesus was born in humble surroundings. Elvis was born in Mississippi.
* Even today Jesus has a cult following. Even today Elvis has a cult following.
* Jesus was called "King of Israel.." (John 12:13) Elvis was called "King of Rock n' Roll".

Was Elvis the 20th-century re-incarnation of Jesus? Hey, decide for yourself.....

Consult A.J. Jacobs's The Two Kings (1994. New York: Bantam) for an extensive list of similarities between Elvis and Jesus. It is unknown whether any of the above similarities were ultimately derived from Jacobs's book.

[Hardrock69]

http://www.elvislives.net/

[Hardrock69]

Ok so anyone who says Elvis (who only died 28 years ago) is alive is called a 'nutcase'.

What then would you call someone who believes a 2,000-year-old man is alive?

I rest my case.

Our Elvis, who art in Memphis...Hallowed by thy name...

[Hardrock69]

Don't forget...their is also the Church Of Our Lord Beavis Christ:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/thechurchofbeavischrist/

[Warham]

I will point out that anyone who wants to have a meaningful debate here will not find it.

[Hardrock69]

I agree.

[DR CHIP]

Truisms:

1. When people ask "do you believe in God?" they usually mean "do you believe in the God I believe in?"...whether they realize it or not...

2. Faith can never be proven because then it would be knowledge....

3. Most organized religions do not really teach what THEIR religion really teaches. In other words, most adherents of religion have NO idea what their religion REALLY says...

4. Most people debate religion from a presupposed mindset and usually the conversation never goes anywhere.....

5. There are no theories/arguments/explanations that can ABSOLUTELY prove God exists, nor are there any that can prove he doesn't....

6. Van Halen and God seem to be mutually exclusive, but it is cool they are both represented here....

7. Sammy Hagar sucks, by the way...

8. The old argument that if God existed there would not be the suffering and pain we see in this world, only holds merit if THAT God could only have designed a world in which people do NOT have choice....

9. Does anyone have any idea what is going on in "Lost"?....

Peace

[Pastor Bruce S.]

First of all, the title of this topic is offensive to those who study and believe in the word of God. I haven't been able to read the posts yet but I could already tell that theme of this topic is to correct the Bible and find faults in it.

The Bible is the Word of God and is 100% in it's accuracy. All the prophecies in the Old Testament concerning a messiah came to be as the Son of God, Jesus Christ fulfilled them.

The New Testament gives you a lot of teachings and does contain prophecies for what is happening today and what is going to be. The New Testament describes events leading up to the end of man's history.

The reason most of you Rhodes Scholars (sarcasm) disect the Bible and find lot's of discrepancies is because you are cracking the Book open and taking to it like a book of mathematical equations. So, it's only natural that your interpretation of the Holy Bible is going to be lost in translation.

Let good ol' Pastor Bruce give you some advice on how to approach the Bible. Get your Bible, then get on your knees and pray this prayer:

Dear Lord Father,

Today I want to know you and know your word. Please fill me with your Holy Spirit as it shall guide me and be my eyes when I read your word. Make the scriptures come to life for me as each word fills my heart. I am opening my heart and mind to your Gospel and hope to shine in your light.

In Christ Name I Pray. Amen.


I promise you that you will be overflowing with abundance of joy reading the good word from now on.

Love,

Pastor Bruce S.

[Hardrock69]

Just as we all can be overflowing with abundance of joy when reading the word of Santa Clause?

[Angel]

I'll take the words of Buddha or the Damai Lama over any pastor, any day....

After all, Jesus did. ;)

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Angel
I'll take the words of Buddha or the Damai Lama over any pastor, any day....

After all, Jesus did. ;)

:rolleyes:

You are seriously deluded and misinformed.

When was the last time you studied Christian theology?

Speak not of things you do not know.

Jesus talked to God His Father, not some fake Buddha, Dalai Lama, or other pagan idol.

Get a grip, woman!!!!

:gulp:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Angel
I'll take the words of Buddha or the Damai Lama over any pastor, any day....

After all, Jesus did. ;)


:rolleyes:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Pastor Bruce S.
I promise you that you will be overflowing with abundance of joy reading the good word from now on.

Love,

Pastor Bruce S.


Thank you, Pastor...


:elvis:

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Thank you, Pastor...


:elvis:

Apparently you haven't read the "pastor's" other "sermons".

He's a cartoonized Fred Phelps wannabe AOL using alias pussy, and I'm about to break out the weed eater on all of these goddamned trolls.

[ELVIS]

I don't care, his last post was just fine...

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by DR CHIP

6. Van Halen and God seem to be mutually exclusive, but it is cool they are both represented here....



actually, since God used to sing for van halen in the late 70s, early 80s, it's not quite as mutually exclusive as you'd think...;)

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Pastor Bruce S.

The Bible is the Word of God and is 100% in it's accuracy. All the prophecies in the Old Testament concerning a messiah came to be as the Son of God, Jesus Christ fulfilled them.


Do you take requests?

Preach to us on the story of Noah.

Tell us how he got two of each of the 2.1 million identified species in the world today onto his boat.

No evolution of course so then add the dinosaurs and the rest.

Oh and don't forget the plants.

Noah lived to 120 so I'm sure he had plenty of time and space...

Then tell us about how the rain fell to the height of Mount Everest in 40 days, went away but somehow created the Grand Canyon in it's wake.

This is a WIN WIN situation for everyone.

You'll be preaching to the audience of fundamental Christians here while giving the rest of us a damn good laugh.:)


Cheers!

:gulp:

[Warham]

Noah wouldn't have had to take any water dwelling or amphibious animals on board, so you can cut out a big chunk of that 2.1 million.

Dinosaurs probably were extinct by then, so there's a good chance we can eliminate them.

Plants weren't required to be brought aboard.

There's three things in your query that are questionable already.

Now, a better question to ask Pastor Bruce would be:

Gee, Pastor, do you think it's possible to fit 2 of every land-dwelling animal on Earth (and it's even possible some aren't fully grown) aboard a boat that could have actually been similar in size to Titanic?

[Warham]

First Five Books of the Bible Might Not Be All That Bad as History
By Timothy W. Maier

9/26/2005

In the midst of a 1993 panel discussion in Palm Beach, Fla., about the Persian Gulf War, attorney Porcher Taylor fired away at the guest speaker of the evening, former CIA deputy director for national intelligence George Carver, who had just finished making a national-security speech to 400 serious-minded listeners.

"Dr. Carver, I'm a West Point graduate," Taylor began as a tape recorder rolled. "While I was a cadet at the academy in 1973, there was a strong rumor going around that one of our military spy satellites was flying down the Russian/ Turkish corridor taking photographs of a Soviet missile site and, apparently accidentally, took photographs on the Turkish side of a large wooden object which apparently appeared to be a ship stuck in a glacier at about 14,000 feet on Mount Ararat. Strong rumor going around the academy at the time was that apparently our intelligence people at the CIA might have classified photographs of Noah's Ark. I was wondering if you had any comments about that."

The audience erupted in laughter; such a question seemed out of place. But silence quickly fell over the room as the guest speaker responded.

"Well, I don't recall the CIA working on Noah's Ark," replied Carver, who is the only person in the history of the agency to be awarded the distinguished Intelligence Medal. "But I do remember that at the time there were some pictures taken and there were clear indications that there was something up on Mount Ararat, which was rather strange. There were various archaeological expeditions that were mounted. The Turkish government was not too thrilled about supporting them because it was getting into an area that was politically dicey from the Turks' point of view."

The famous intelligence expert paused. "You know," he said, "I haven't been up there; I don't think anyone has. But it certainly was eyebrow-lifting and it was certainly another indication that, despite its splendor as a work of poetry, the Pentateuch - the first five books of the Bible - might not be all that bad as history also."

No one was laughing anymore, and what he heard inspired Taylor to begin a seven-year project to obtain mysterious intelligence records dealing with Mount Ararat declassified. Jews and Christians shouldn't be the only ones interested in the Ark story, says Taylor. The Koran also reports the Ark as history, as do about 160 cultures. Then there are the ancient historians as far back as 275 B.C. who refer to an anomalous ship high on a mountain in this remote northeast corner of Turkey.

While the Operation Desert Storm audience did not at first take Taylor seriously, that wasn't the case when the late Apollo astronaut Col. James Irwin announced that he planned to devote his remaining years to finding the great ship. As he explained, "I thought the Lord wanted me involved in finding artifacts from the Genesis time that would be more important than the Genesis Rock we found on the moon."

Hundreds of explorers have entertained thoughts of similar missions, but none more famous than Titanic discoverer Robert Ballard, who has found ancient artifacts that may date back to Noah's time while probing the floor of the Black Sea. So far he has found architectural remnants, pieces of ceramic and stone tools. Ballard also found evidence of a sunken coastline, appearing to confirm a theory proposed in the book Noah's Flood by William Ryan and Walter Pitman, senior scientists at the Lamont-Doherty Earth Observatory of Columbia University. They speculated that saltwater from the Mediterranean burst into the Black Sea, then a freshwater lake, with such force that it completely flooded an area the size of Florida.

Even the History Channel is getting into "Ark fever," searching Mount Ararat for a story to be told next year. And over the years there have been hundreds of expeditions in search of Noah's Ark - many detailed in world-famous linguist Charles Berlitz's book The Lost Ship of Noah and Ark searcher B.J. Corbin's book The Explorers of Ararat. One such expedition involved an alleged discovery by the Russian imperial air force, which is supposed to have sent 150 men up Mount Ararat in 1916 to explore a large object said to be as long as a city block. If so, no records ever were produced to verify the account.

In 1955, French explorer Fernand Navarra reported finding a 5-foot wooden beam on Mount Ararat some 40 feet under the Parrot Glacier on the northwest slope and well above the treeline. The Forestry Institute of Research and Experiments of the Ministry of Agriculture in Spain certified the wood to be about 5,000 years old. However, Navarra's guide later claimed the French explorer bought the beam from a nearby village and carried it up the mountain.

A year later, Ark fever hit a new high as U.S. military spy planes began photographing the area, perhaps because the Soviets were building a missile base 40 miles away. An Insight review of declassified records and interviews with senior intelligence officials confirms the CIA has a long paper trail concerning the "boatlike structure" on Mount Ararat.

What does the CIA know? Quite a bit. It was all stamped "Secret" and tucked away in what the agency calls the "Mount Ararat Anomaly" file. Taylor kept insisting that it be released. He even reached the level of Vice President Al Gore, who handed it off to senior intelligence agencies -some of which consider Taylor a national-security threat for digging into sophisti-cated spy imagery.

In 1994, Taylor caught the ear of former CIA director James Woolsey, who tried to get his agency to conduct a comprehensive analysis but decided against it for cost reasons, according to declassified CIA memos. Woolsey declines to comment about the anomaly but acknowledges he tried to help Taylor. Memos to Woolsey from his staff indicate the CIA had Mount Ararat imagery from 1990 and 1992 as well as three decades of documents on the anomaly. According to declassified CIA records, Woolsey was told it would take four to six weeks of work and six months for an imagery expert to analyze all the data.

Dino Brugioni, the retired founder of the CIA's National Photographic Interpretation Center, reviewed one still-classified 1956 U-2 photo of the anomaly when it was brought to his attention. Did Brugioni see the Ark?

"Oh, it looked like a bow of a ship stuck in the mountain," Brugioni tells Insight. "But it did not conform with the Bible dimensions. It was much too large. We had a good dimension of what the Ark was in meters and the anomaly was too big."

Trouble is that some scholars note the biblical measure used to describe the Ark - a cubit - may be anywhere between 18 inches and 3 feet, which might make the Ark bigger than the Titanic.

Analysts who reviewed a 1973 KH-9 satellite photo of the anomaly say it resembles "one end of a possible ship," recalls a senior intelligence source who spoke on condition of anonymity. The image was an enlargement of objects protruding from the snow on Mount Ararat, the source says. "These objects appeared to be portions of large, rectangular slabs which might have been wooden beams, or might have been large segments of rock," the source says. "Two of these slabs met at one point and appeared to curve away from the point in a way similar to beams that might form the bow of a large ship. A third slab joined the other two and also curved away from the point in a way suggestive of the stem or keel of a ship."

The source continues, "A CIA photo interpreter says he believed the objects were man-made and that they gave the appearance of massive beams at the prow of a ship. And we all agreed they certainly did; however, given the nature of other objects visible in the area, the objects seemed at least equally likely to be slabs of rock. We discussed the matter for perhaps 15 minutes, and the consensus of the more experienced photo interpreters was that the objects were indeed natural rock slabs and not man-made beams of wood. The younger analyst was keenly disappointed because he had thought that he might have discovered the bow of Noah's Ark. The more senior imagery specialists present remained skeptical and said that without higher-quality imagery we could not be sure; and, since neither the Ark nor that particular area were on any of our target lists, we should not pursue the matter further - and we dropped it."

Although Woolsey picked up the mystery in 1994, it was Carver's interest and Taylor's insistence that prompted the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) to declassify photograph frames taken from a motion-picture camera on June 17, 1949, by a U.S. Air Force reconnaissance flight over Mount Ararat. Carver died before he could see the fruits of his labors with Taylor. The DIA declassified its first photograph of the anomaly in 1995.

However, a review of DIA records collected by Taylor shows that the agency was far from forthcoming. For example, in 1995, after releasing a single photo to Taylor, the DIA stated there were no more photos. Taylor filed another Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request and, four months later, DIA released a second image. After Taylor filed a third FOIA, the DIA released five additional frames three months later, in addition to providing three blown-up images of three of the frames.

Flying at about 14,000 feet parallel to Mount Ararat, which is about 18 miles south of Russia and 12 miles west of the Iranian border, the Air Force cameras had zeroed in on a strange boxlike object. The anomaly was protruding from the glacial ice cap at 15,500 feet at the northwest edge of the nearly mile-long Western Plateau. It was about 1.3 miles west of the summit.

The DIA refused to release the entire film, claiming no other shots were taken of Mount Ararat. But since it released photos identified by the Air Force as frames two, four, five, six, seven and 23, it stands to reason that there are at least 18 more shots available. For example, what is on frame 22? Of those snaps, only frame seven is not of the anomaly but of a volcanic crater. The five others are of the anomaly but from different angles. Frames two and 23 are a panoramic view of the front side or southwestern view of the mountain, which the DIA enlarged for Taylor. Frames four, five and six are of the back side or north view of the mountain and were not enlarged.

The DIA also released the photo frames to Insight but, again, declined to provide the entire film or imagery from the KH-9 or KH-11 satellites. Robert P. Richardson, FOIA officer for the DIA, tells Insight the agency "lost" the satellite imagery. The DIA's ruling is on appeal. Insight also requested all documents of the Ararat Anomaly from the U.S. Air Force, the CIA, the National Reconnaissance Office and, of course, the DIA. So far none of the other agencies have released the imagery - despite Executive Order 12958 requiring the mandatory release of historical records, including satellite imagery, 25 years old or older.

"We couldn't release it because of the resolution and because it shows what we were targeting," says a senior intelligence source. The target, which is not the Soviet missile base, is thought by Turkish authorities to be CIA listening posts buried in the ice that once were used to track Soviet missiles. The CIA will not confirm or deny this, but an intelligence source tells Insight, "We had listening posts on the mountain, but I don't know why or if they are still up there."

The DIA did conduct an analysis in 1995 in response to Taylor's personal request. This unprecedented decision to analyze the 1949 photos for a private citizen resulted in a declassified two-page report. According to this report, the DIA didn't rule out the possibility that it was a man-made structure but stated the anomaly shown in frames two and 23 "appears" to be one of "these linear facades in the glacier ice underlying more recently accumulated ice and snow."

The ever-optimistic Taylor tells Insight, "I'm encouraged they say 'appears,'" but he says he remains frustrated. The DIA refused to offer analysis for frames four, five and six, which show a pair of three prongs or symmetrical beams protruding from the mountain. Taylor had those frames enlarged by DNA Electronic Imaging Specialists in Hollywood, Fla. Roman Gomez, an imaging specialist then at DNA, analyzed the photos. He noted "there is nothing else like that anywhere else on the mountain." Retired senior physicist and satellite-imagery analyst for the U.S. Navy's Naval Surface Warfare Center Clifford Paiva also says, "Preliminary assessment of the anomaly's parallel and orthogonal lines of symmetry, as well as curved and circular lines of symmetry, indicate cultural 'man-made' etiology."

Taylor says he understands the reluctance to declassify satellite imagery, but what about that low-level 1949 Air Force motion-picture film? "If DIA is correct and it's a rock, then tell me why they classified a rock as 'Secret' for 51 years?" Taylor asks. "Maybe it was more than just a routine mission. Maybe they knew what they were doing."

http://www.insightmag.com/media/paper441/news/2000/11/20/CoverStory/First.Five.Books.Of.The.Bible.Might.Not.Be.All.Tha t.Bad.As.History-231435.shtml

[Seshmeister]

Have you ever considered doing stand up comedy?:D

[Angel]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
:rolleyes:

You are seriously deluded and misinformed.

When was the last time you studied Christian theology?

Speak not of things you do not know.

Jesus talked to God His Father, not some fake Buddha, Dalai Lama, or other pagan idol.

Get a grip, woman!!!!

:gulp:


I have a right to my beliefs just as you have a right to yours. Personally, I believe Jesus' words of love and forgiveness were lessons he learned in his travels, and they were the words of Buddha that he brought back to his people.

I don't NEED to study any bullshit theology. I make my own choices based upon my own observations.

You should really lay off the :gulp:. Drinking everyday the way you do is extremely harmful!

[Warham]

Jesus never spoke of any of the Buddhist tenets. In fact, everything he said went against them.

Buddhists don't believe in a God. Jesus said that he and the Father were one in the same. Buddhists don't believe in eternal life. Jesus spoke of both Paradise and Hell. Buddhists don't believe in moral absolutes. Jesus absolutely believes in moral absolutes. Buddhists believe ignorance is the problem. Jesus believes sin is the problem.

You do need to study theology before making these claims.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Warham
Jesus never spoke of any of the Buddhist tenets. In fact, everything he said went against them.

Buddhists don't believe in a God. Jesus said that he and the Father were one in the same. Buddhists don't believe in eternal life. Jesus spoke of both Paradise and Hell. Buddhists don't believe in moral absolutes. Jesus absolutely believes in moral absolutes. Buddhists believe ignorance is the problem. Jesus believes sin is the problem.

You do need to study theology before making these claims.

Exactly.

Angel, are you starting your own cult up there? :eek:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Warham
Noah wouldn't have had to take any water dwelling or amphibious animals on board, so you can cut out a big chunk of that 2.1 million.

Dinosaurs probably were extinct by then, so there's a good chance we can eliminate them.

Plants weren't required to be brought aboard.

There's three things in your query that are questionable already.

Now, a better question to ask Pastor Bruce would be:

Gee, Pastor, do you think it's possible to fit 2 of every land-dwelling animal on Earth (and it's even possible some aren't fully grown) aboard a boat that could have actually been similar in size to Titanic?

Hahahah.

Ok a few points.

So dinosaurs were extinct at that point, ok I'll go along with your sudden limited acceptance of the fossil record of course there isn't a strata of millions of dead animals from a flood but we'll skip past that just now.

2.1 million is the most conservative estimate going many think it's 100 million but lets stick with that...

Example - Known species of bugs.

COLLEMBOLA: 6000 eg. springtails
THYSANURA: 370 e.g.. silverfish
EPHEMEROPTERA: 2100 eg. mayflies
ODONATA: 5500 eg. dragonflies
PLECOPTERA: 2000 eg. stoneflies
BLATTODEA: 3700 eg. cockroaches
ISOPTERA: 2300 eg. termites
MANTODEA: 1800 eg. mantids
DERMAPTERA: 1800 eg. earwigs
ORTHOPTERA: 20500 eg. grasshoppers
PHASMATODEA: 2500 eg. stick insects
PSCOPTERA: 3200 eg. bark lice
PHTHIRAPTERA: 3000 eg. biting lice
HEMIPTERA: 82000 eg. aphids
THYSANOPTERA: 5000 eg. thrips
MEGALOPTERA: 250 eg. alderflies
RAPHIDIOPTERA: 175 eg. snakeflies
NEUROPTERA: 5000 eg. ant-lions
COLEOPTERA: 400000 eg. beetles
MECOPTERA: 400 eg. scorpion flies
SIPHONAPTERA: 2400 eg. fleas
DIPTERA: 120000 eg. fruit-flies
TRICHOPTERA: 10000 eg. caddisflies
LEPIDOPTERA: 150000 eg. butterflies
HYMENOPTERA: 130000 eg. ants, bees

That's a million straight off.

Did you know there are 350 000 species of beetles?

Don't forget we need to escort these little pairs of bugs back safely to their homes. Noah walking along with his 2 army ants taking them safely to South America times a million.

No plants huh? Not required?

Take your houseplants and stick them under water for 40 days or a year and let me know how they get on.

How did you feed the animals?

How did you find all those dietary requirements? Did Noah really remember the 2kg of eucalyptus a day that his pair of Koala bears needed.

640 humming-birds, requiring an almost constant supply of fresh nectar on a damp boat?

Again times a million.

And this Titanic sized boat of yours.

How did he build it. Have you any idea how many people it would take and how long to build a wooden boat that size? It would rot before you launched it. It would be impossible to make stable and it would need to be spectacularly stable because of the water.

Remember the water. The planet flooded to the hieght of Everest. Thats (I admit I cut and pasted this bit...:) but it looks ok)

The radius of the Earth is approx. 6370km
The height of Everest above sea-level is approx. 8.8 km
Therefore, the volume of the Earth is approx. 1,082,696,932,000km³, or 1,080 billion cubic kilometers.
The volume of the earth to the height of Everest is 1,087,190,293,000km³
Subtracting the first volume from the second gives approx. 4,493,361,000, or four thousand, five hundred million cubic kilometers of water!
Also, this rain is supposed to have fallen within about 40 days. That means that there would have been about 220 metres of rainfall every day over the entire planet (8800/40 = 220)! A few centimetres in a day is considered to be extremely heavy rain.

That's like 660 FEET of rain a day.

Hell of a stable boat for a drunk guy with primative tools...:)

All of this of course is just a starter for 10.

If you are going to keep on with this insane argument please start quoting from http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/edn-c013.html as it's one of the funniest sites on the net.:)

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Warham]

Noah was told 120 years before the flood happened to get started. I'd say that's long enough for him and his three sons to build it (not to mention hiring other folks just to help build it).

I don't believe they used primitive tools. They probably used saws, hammers, horses, etc. Look at the pyramids for human ingenuity. Much older than the Ark most likely.

You also do not need to save every species. That'd be like saving every kind of dog. It's unnecessary. Save a doberman, collie, or a golden. Sort of like when you are a kid and you go to the zoo. It's just lions, tigers and bears, not 200 species of lions, 500 species of tigers, and 100 species of bears. You just need one kind. I doubt insects were brought on board, so we can remove that million.

I don't follow standard Christian sites.

I believe that the universe may indeed be 15 billion years old.

You are dealing with another kind of Christian here.

[Seshmeister]

120 years so that makes it more believable?

Why not just say a million years and be done with it?:D

As for the limited species you are moving to the heresy of evolution there dude and you know what that'll get you, fire and brimstone time.:)

[Seshmeister]

And if you believe in the Universe being 15 billion years old then you are basing that on empirical science.

You are not accepting a literal definition of Genesis being Earth and the stars built in a week or the 6400 years or whatever biblical age of the Earth so why fight over the silly Noah story?

[Warham]

The Bible never reveals the age of the Earth.

You can't just add up the generations from Adam to Jesus, then add 2000 years, because some or perhaps many generations are missing, according to many researchers.

I believe 120 years is plenty long enough to build a boat that big, especially if all they are using is tar and wood, with some pitch for the outside.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Warham
First Five Books of the Bible Might Not Be All That Bad as History
By Timothy W. Maier

9/26/2005

In the midst of a 1993 panel discussion in Palm Beach, Fla., about the Persian Gulf War, attorney Porcher Taylor fired away at the guest speaker of the evening, former CIA deputy director for national intelligence George Carver, who had just finished making a national-security speech to 400 serious-minded listeners.

"Dr. Carver, I'm a West Point graduate," Taylor began as a tape recorder rolled. "While I was a cadet at the academy in 1973, there was a strong rumor going around that one of our military spy satellites was flying down the Russian/ Turkish corridor taking photographs of a Soviet missile site and, apparently accidentally, took photographs on the Turkish side of a large wooden object which apparently appeared to be a ship stuck in a glacier at about 14,000 feet on Mount Ararat. Strong rumor going around the academy at the time was that apparently our intelligence people at the CIA might have classified photographs of Noah's Ark. I was wondering if you had any comments about that."


BTW this is an old and bogus story.

http://www.csun.edu/~vcgeo005/bogus.html

[ELVIS]

Bogus ?

http://www.noahsarksearch.com/ararat_anomaly_1949_Frame%202.jpg

http://www.noahsarksearch.com/ararat_anomaly_1949_Frame%202_closeup.jpg

http://www.imagingnotes.com/novdec00/graphics/tay1hi.gif


:elvis:

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Warham
Jesus never spoke of any of the Buddhist tenets. In fact, everything he said went against them.

Buddhists don't believe in a God. Jesus said that he and the Father were one in the same. Buddhists don't believe in eternal life. Jesus spoke of both Paradise and Hell. Buddhists don't believe in moral absolutes. Jesus absolutely believes in moral absolutes. Buddhists believe ignorance is the problem. Jesus believes sin is the problem.

You do need to study theology before making these claims.

What you fail to mention is that your "theory" about what Jesus said or believed is just that. A theory.

No facts whatsoever to back it up.

Consider the following:

"All four gospels are anonymous texts. The familiar attributions of the Gospels to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John come from the mid-second century and later and we have no good historical reason to accept these attributions."

-Steve Mason, professor of classics, history and religious studies at York University in Toronto (Bible Review, Feb. 2000, p. 36)

"But even if it could be proved that John's Gospel had been the first of the four to be written down, there would still be considerable confusion as to who "John" was. For the various styles of the New Testament texts ascribed to John- The Gospel, the letters, and the Book of Revelations-- are each so different in their style that it is extremely unlikely that they had been written by one person."

-John Romer, archeologist & Bible scholar (Testament)



"It was not until the third century that Jesus' cross of execution became a common symbol of the Christian faith."

-John Romer, archeologist & Bible scholar (Testament)

And consider this as well:

Not a single historian, philosopher, scribe or follower who lived before or during the alleged time of Jesus ever mentions him.

Take, for example, the works of Philo Judaeus who's birth occurred in 20 B.C.E. and died 50 C.E. He lived as the greatest Jewish-Hellenistic philosopher and historian of the time and lived in the area of Jerusalem during the alleged life of Jesus. He wrote detailed accounts of the Jewish events that occurred in the surrounding area. Yet not once, in all of his volumes of writings, do we read a single account of a Jesus "the Christ." Nor do we find any mention of Jesus in Seneca's (4? B.C.E. - 65 C.E.) writings, nor from the historian Pliny the Elder (23? - 79 C.E.).

Come on.

Explain this.


Let us see what you guys who actually lived during Jesus's lifetime, who actually heard him speak first-hand, who actually KNEW him have to say.

Warham?

Brian?

Let's hear it. Come on.

:cool:

[Hardrock69]

As for the ark on Ararat, it is entirely possible it is what people theorize it to be.

The Mountain Of Moses has been discovered, but it is not the "Mt. Sinai" everyone thinks it is.

That mountain was chosen as "Mt. Sinai" by the mother of Constantine The Great, who happened to be on a vacation in the area in the early 4th Century, and "dreamed" that it was the Mountian Of Moses.

What I am interested in knowing, is the mystery discussed in the fantastic movie "Raiders Of The Lost Ark".

There have been a couple of people who have claimed to have found the Ark Of THe Covenant....but as with all things, even if it had been discovered, the Israelis would not be too keen on letting the world at large know about it.

Perhaps it is just as well that it remain hidden.

One thing is for sure....if I knew where it was, I would not be too interested in getting too close to it.
:cool:

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
Noah was told 120 years before the flood happened to get started. I'd say that's long enough for him and his three sons to build it (not to mention hiring other folks just to help build it).

He hired other guys? Must have been some job pitch. "Hey you guys? Wanna help me build a big boat so I can sail off into the sunset while your asses drown?"

I don't believe they used primitive tools. They probably used saws, hammers, horses, etc. Look at the pyramids for human ingenuity. Much older than the Ark most likely.

The pyramids were built during the time that the Jews were slaves in Egypt. Technically, it was the Jews who actually built the things. The Egyptians just whipped them and watched. And this was long after Noah's zoological love boat did it's little cruise

You also do not need to save every species. That'd be like saving every kind of dog. It's unnecessary. Save a doberman, collie, or a golden. Sort of like when you are a kid and you go to the zoo. It's just lions, tigers and bears, not 200 species of lions, 500 species of tigers, and 100 species of bears. You just need one kind. I doubt insects were brought on board, so we can remove that million.

If the rain was too much for birds to fly in, it would have been too much for bugs to fly in, obviously. Where Noah got all the jars with holes to put the bugs in, that;s a different story.

I don't follow standard Christian sites.

I believe that the universe may indeed be 15 billion years old.

You are dealing with another kind of Christian here.

So if you don't take Genesis literally, why do you take Leviticus that way?

[ELVIS]

Josephus on Jesus

Greek Version


About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvellous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.


Arabic Version


At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to themafter his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
So if you don't take Genesis literally, why do you take Leviticus that way?

And you call yourself a Christian ?

You have quite an imagination...

[Warham]

There's symbolism and parable in there as well as literal fact. You have to be able to determine which is which.

What I do take it as is the Word of God.

Noah could have certainly hired people on to help. They probably considered him crazy, but if he was paying them for services rendered, I doubt they would have cared what his reasoning was.

I believe the pyramids were much older than Moses. I believe they were built around the time of Abraham, before the Jews were even enslaved.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Hardrock69

One thing is for sure....if I knew where it was, I would not be too interested in getting too close to it.
:cool:

Why is that? You don't believe what the Bible says, right?

[rustoffa]

Originally posted by Warham
I believe the pyramids were much older than Moses. I believe they were built around the time of Abraham, before the Jews were even enslaved.

Hold on, didn't one of Abraham's tight progeny go on to found what could be construed as a "North African" contingent?

That kinda lends itself to the timeline?
:confused:

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Josephus on Jesus

Greek Version


About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvellous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.


Arabic Version


At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good, and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and the other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the Messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders.


:elvis:

Yup. Josephus Flavius mentions Jesus. He was the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus.

Funny, but he actually mentions at least 12 other people named Jesus as well. Only one is the "Christ", and that is the sole paragraph in all of his writings about the guy who is the basis for Christianity.

Book XVII of Antiquities, Chapter 3, Verse 3. I am looking at it right now.

Although many scholars think that Josephus' mention of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from writings perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus wasn't even born until 37 C.E., after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus, and wrote Antiquities in 93 or 94 C.E. after the first gospels got written.

So even if his accounts about Jesus were actually written by his hand, and not as info added later by someone else, his information could only serve as hearsay, as the best he could have hoped for was to run into someone much older than him who had seen or known Jesus.

Not only that, but there were many other prophets back then who wrought numerous miracles, etc., so he was not unique, though the Catholic Church would have everyone believe otherwise.

[ELVIS]

I'm not Catholic, so I wouldn't know...

Name one of the prophets who "wrought numerous miracles" oh wise one...

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Warham
Why is that? You don't believe what the Bible says, right?

Am I required to believe 100% of it?

No. If it can be verified through independent sources OTHER than the New or Old Testament, then I will be more likely to consider it to be true.

For instance, the title of "Christ" in it's Hebraic form was held by all the Kings of Israel. Again, Jesus was not unique in having that title.

Pretty typical back then that Kings, Rulers, etc. were seen by the public (or else they were forced to worship them ) as "gods".

It is commonly known also for instance (among scholars anyway) that the story of Lazarus predated Jesus The Christ by over 1,000 years....the story being told concerning the mummy El-Azar-Us being raised from the dead by the Egyptian God Horus.

It (like so much other stuff in the Bible) is allegory.

But I digress.

The point I made was, if somehow I knew for a FACT that this golden box with 2 cherubim on top was the ACTUAL Ark Of The Covenenant, I would exercise caution.

Much has been speculated about the construction of it, with some authorities stating that the design is like that of a large capacitor.

Whether housing the Power Of God, or being some kind of primitive power source, I would not be in a great hurry to start fucking around with it.

:eek:

[FORD]

Originally posted by rustoffa
Hold on, didn't one of Abraham's tight progeny go on to found what could be construed as a "North African" contingent?

That kinda lends itself to the timeline?
:confused:

Abraham's first son Ishmael is considered the ancestor of all the Arab/Muslim world.

But actually Noah's son Ham was in the North African area first. Genesis 8 mentions "Cush" and "Put" among his descendants, and these are the same names used for Libya and Ethiopia in Ezekiel 38.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
The point I made was, if somehow I knew for a FACT that this golden box with 2 cherubim on top was the ACTUAL Ark Of The Covenenant, I would exercise caution.

Much has been speculated about the construction of it, with some authorities stating that the design is like that of a large capacitor.

Whether housing the Power Of God, or being some kind of primitive power source, I would not be in a great hurry to start fucking around with it.

:eek:

I think it's funny and cool that you have no trouble correctly showing problems with the bible yet believe a Harrison Ford film was true.

What's your theory on wookies?:)

[ELVIS]

uhh huhuhu hu hu hu hu hu


:D

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
I think it's funny and cool that you have no trouble correctly showing problems with the bible yet believe a Harrison Ford film was true.

What's your theory on wookies?:)

If you wish to believe that "Harrison Ford film" is true, that is your problem.

It is a work of fiction.

[GOD ALMIGHTY]

BELIEVE WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW

[Satan]

Originally posted by GOD ALMIGHTY
BELIEVE WHAT THOU WILT SHALL BE THE WHOLE OF THE LAW

Since when do You quote the words of my employee Aleister Crowley? :confused:

[knuckleboner]

the story of noah's ark HAS to be a parable.

there is no way, NO WAY that every single person on earth, outside of noah and his family, were evil people.

yet i'm to believe that an all-loving God killed every one of them? to make a point that there were too many evil people, He wiped out everybody, the good as well?

you know, that seems like murder.

so we've either got a murdering god, or every single person on the planet being evil.

uh...i'm guessing it's a parable.

[Satan]

God had quite a temper back in those days. He kicked me out of Heaven for merely having an opinion, remember?

[Hardrock69]

Hey, he ordered Moses and his borther to go into Canaaan ans slaughter every person in it....according to the Bible...

WTF? Why murder so many innocent people?


Here is a complete List of atrocities ordered by God The Murderer:

http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/killer2.htm

[GOD ALMIGHTY]

Originally posted by Satan
Since when do You quote the words of my employee Aleister Crowley? :confused:

AND WHO DOST THOU THINK GAVE HIM THESE WORDS TO SPEAK?

THOU ART MY EMPLOYEE!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Satan
God had quite a temper back in those days. He kicked me out of Heaven for merely having an opinion, remember?

You tried to take over in a coup de'tat! Don't you remember JESUS bombing you from his chariot?

Oh course, that was JOHN MILTON's version of events....

[Satan]

Originally posted by GOD ALMIGHTY
AND WHO DOST THOU THINK GAVE HIM THESE WORDS TO SPEAK?

THOU ART MY EMPLOYEE!

Dude, I submitted my resignation 10,000 years ago. I think the old Holy Memory Bank is going.

Any Gingko Biloba trees left up in Heaven, your Highness?

[Satan]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
You tried to take over in a coup de'tat! Don't you remember JESUS bombing you from his chariot?

Oh course, that was JOHN MILTON's version of events....

Milton was a decent writer, but he had a little bit of mushroom tea that day. I'm afraid.

[GOD ALMIGHTY]

Originally posted by Satan
Dude, I submitted my resignation 10,000 years ago. I think the old Holy Memory Bank is going.

Any Gingko Biloba trees left up in Heaven, your Highness?

ALL ACCORDING TO MY PLAN.

THOU BELIEVEST THOU HAST CONTROL OVER THINE DESTINY?

THOU ART OF A SILLY MIND, ANGEL OF DARKNESS.

IT PLEASED ME TO CREATE THEE IN THAT FASHION.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Hey, he ordered Moses and his borther to go into Canaaan ans slaughter every person in it....according to the Bible...

WTF? Why murder so many innocent people?


Here is a complete List of atrocities ordered by God The Murderer:

http://www.holysmoke.org/hs00/killer2.htm

Hardly innocent, unless you consider people who routinely sacrificed children to pagans.

[Satan]

Originally posted by GOD ALMIGHTY
ALL ACCORDING TO MY PLAN.

THOU BELIEVEST THOU HAST CONTROL OVER THINE DESTINY?

THOU ART OF A SILLY MIND, ANGEL OF DARKNESS.

IT PLEASED ME TO CREATE THEE IN THAT FASHION.

And people call ME prideful and arrogant? Unholy shit! :rolleyes:

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Warham
Hardly innocent, unless you consider people who routinely sacrificed children to pagans.


Ok so explain why hundreds of thousands of CHILDREN were slaughtered on the orders of God The Murderer....

This ought to be interesting...

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by GOD ALMIGHTY
ALL ACCORDING TO MY PLAN.

THOU BELIEVEST THOU HAST CONTROL OVER THINE DESTINY?

THOU ART OF A SILLY MIND, ANGEL OF DARKNESS.

IT PLEASED ME TO CREATE THEE IN THAT FASHION.

Hey dude, cool hat...where can I buy one?

Ever thought of using Grecian Formula 16 in your beard? That grey streak makes you look like an old fuck....

[GOD ALMIGHTY]

SILENCE, THOU BLASPHEMER!!!

[Warham]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Ok so explain why hundreds of thousands of CHILDREN were slaughtered on the orders of God The Murderer....

This ought to be interesting... .

From a good article online. Says it better than I can...

'What about the children and other "innocents"? Surely God could have spared the children! People tend to assume that children are innocent, even if their parents are doing bad things. The assumption is unfounded. For example, Palestinian Muslim children are officially taught in grammar school to hate their Jewish neighbors. They are so well indoctrinated that some of them give up their lives in suicide bombings as children. Corruption literally does breed corruption, which is why God did not want the Hebrews tainted by the other corrupt cultures of the Middle East.

Surely there must have been other innocent adults in those cities who were destroyed with the wicked! There actually is an example of a time when God was asked if He would destroy the innocent along with the wicked. Prior to destroying Sodom and Gomorrah, Abraham asked God if He would destroy the righteous along with the wicked. God replied that He would spare the entire city for 50 righteous people. Abraham kept reducing the possible number of righteous people, asking God if He would destroy the entire city along with those number of righteous people. God's reply in each case was that He would not destroy the righteous along with the wicked. The lowest number Abraham asked about was ten righteous people, although the answer would likely be the same with as few as one righteous individual. How do we know this? God sent two angels to warn the four righteous people in Sodom to flee before He destroyed the city. It is quite convenient that such details are usually left out of atheistic sites complaining about the "evil" perpetrated by God. In fact, God saved certain people from being killed in cities such as Jericho.'

[DR CHIP]

Believing in God requires faith...

Faith cannot be proven...

Having faith does not make one irrational, because faith can be based on genuinely rational conclusions....

Nobody is going to convince someone into believing by the "better" argument....

The Bible has many mysteries and very difficult subjects to resolve (even to those with faith), it will always be defended by those with faith (even if the arguments are weak) and will be the object of ridicule or at least treated suspisciously by those who don't have faith....

But man ain't it fun to get dirty and roll in the dirt on subjects that have so MUCH meaning....especially if there is a God!

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
As for the ark on Ararat, it is entirely possible it is what people theorize it to be.

The Mountain Of Moses has been discovered, but it is not the "Mt. Sinai" everyone thinks it is.

That mountain was chosen as "Mt. Sinai" by the mother of Constantine The Great, who happened to be on a vacation in the area in the early 4th Century, and "dreamed" that it was the Mountian Of Moses.

What I am interested in knowing, is the mystery discussed in the fantastic movie "Raiders Of The Lost Ark".

There have been a couple of people who have claimed to have found the Ark Of THe Covenant....but as with all things, even if it had been discovered, the Israelis would not be too keen on letting the world at large know about it.

Perhaps it is just as well that it remain hidden.

One thing is for sure....if I knew where it was, I would not be too interested in getting too close to it.
:cool:

Incidentally, The Ark of the Covenant is inside Mt. Moriah, the bible actually tells us where it is.

More on that later, I gotta tear down the old computer and hook up the new one.

Later................

[weesfreewheelin]

Where did God come from? This is the biggy I have trouble getting my head around:confused:

[Keeyth]

Here's my take on the bible:

I think a police officer said it best when he said:
"If you ever take down two eyewitness accounts of the exact same traffic accident, from the exact same vantage point, it really makes you wonder about the written history of the world."

Exactly. ;)

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Satan
Dude, I submitted my resignation 10,000 years ago. I think the old Holy Memory Bank is going.

Any Gingko Biloba trees left up in Heaven, your Highness?

ROFLMAO! Good one Satan. :D

[FORD]

Originally posted by weesfreewheelin
Where did God come from? This is the biggy I have trouble getting my head around:confused:

Nashville, according to His IP addy. Does that mean the rednecks were right? :(

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Warham
In fact, God saved certain people from being killed in cities such as Jericho.'

and the great flood? were there truly no innocents on all of earth, outside of noah's family?

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by weesfreewheelin
Where did God come from? This is the biggy I have trouble getting my head around:confused:

That's easy! From a burnt grilled cheese sandwich! :D

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Keeyth
That's easy! From a burnt grilled cheese sandwich! :D

Your nuts will be dined on by a pack of rats while you are roasting in the fires of hell for that one.

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

http://www.strawberrydragon.com/junk/jesuslovesewe.gif

[rustoffa]

Originally posted by FORD
Abraham's first son Ishmael is considered the ancestor of all the Arab/Muslim world.


Correct.

The only way the Pyramids could have existed along that timeline is if some aliens constructed them while Ishmael & company watched in shock and awe.

:rolleyes:

[FORD]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
http://www.strawberrydragon.com/junk/jesuslovesewe.gif

Jesus was Scottish? :confused:

[FORD]

Originally posted by rustoffa
Correct.

The only way the Pyramids could have existed along that timeline is if some aliens constructed them while Ishmael & company watched in shock and awe.

:rolleyes:

http://www.findalasvegascasino.com/casino_image/luxor%20las%20vegas_B.jpg

Perhaps it was alien casino developers?

[rustoffa]

Originally posted by FORD
http://www.findalasvegascasino.com/casino_image/luxor%20las%20vegas_B.jpg

Perhaps it was alien casino developers?


:(

There's nothing worse than a drivit sphynx. People say that the decay on the real sphynx is the result of time. That's a load of bullshit. Alexander brought gunpowder all the way from ASIA to try and blow the face off that piece of shit. He also flooded the valley of the kings.

Let's re-animate that dude and send him towards the big sleazy.

[Seshmeister]

Huh?

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by FORD
http://www.findalasvegascasino.com/casino_image/luxor%20las%20vegas_B.jpg

Perhaps it was alien casino developers?

LMFAO!!!

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by DR CHIP
Believing in God requires faith...

Faith cannot be proven...

Having faith does not make one irrational, because faith can be based on genuinely rational conclusions....

Nobody is going to convince someone into believing by the "better" argument....

The Bible has many mysteries and very difficult subjects to resolve (even to those with faith), it will always be defended by those with faith (even if the arguments are weak) and will be the object of ridicule or at least treated suspisciously by those who don't have faith....

But man ain't it fun to get dirty and roll in the dirt on subjects that have so MUCH meaning....especially if there is a God!


Right on.....if you have faith in something, it cannot be argued away.

In fact, even if somebody believed something totally insane, like "GW BUsh is honest as the day is long", if you try to convince them otherwise, they will cling even more fervently to their belief.

[Seshmeister]

Which has lined the pockets of a lot of people for hundreds of years.

http://www.leafpile.com/TravelLog/Italy/ClassicRome/VatMuseo.jpg

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Your nuts will be dined on by a pack of rats while you are roasting in the fires of hell for that one.

:gulp:


Only if God is as lacking in a sense of humor as you are! :D

[ELVIS]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seshmeister
Which has lined the pockets of a lot of people for hundreds of years.

Bible waving nutjobs have not lined anyone's pockets...

I think you are referring to the Catholic church...

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Seshmeister
Which has lined the pockets of a lot of people for hundreds of years.

Bible waving nutjobs have not lined anyone's pockets...

I think you are referring to the Catholic church...

Not neccessarily......
http://www.rotten.com/library/bio/religion/televangelists/pat-robertson/pat_robertson_700_club.jpg

[ELVIS]

Even the 700 club distributes a huge amount of money to missionaries and other organizations around the world...

Now, Benny Hinn is a different story...


:elvis:

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Even the 700 club distributes a huge amount of money to missionaries and other organizations around the world...


....Most of which are fronts for Pat Robertson's African diamond mines.

[Pastor Bruce S.]

Originally posted by FORD
....Most of which are fronts for Pat Robertson's African diamond mines.
Hi Ford. That's what's great about you. Always got to ruffle some feathers. But you know what friend. The Good pastor thinks you are "A" "OKAY!"

Before you make any accusations at Mr. Robertson, know that it could just be hearsay or rumors. And if what you're insinuating is true, Mr. Robertson's fortune in diamonds does not take away from God's word.

If put under the microscope long enough, you evenually will find fault with any believer of the Christian faith. Afterall, we are all human and humans live in a fallen world. No man besides Jesus was sinless nor is anyone perfect, including myself. It is through Jesus that we have a road to salvation. That is why he is revered by us Christians.

You see my amigo, people's approach to the Bible is all wrong. People are isoteric when reading the Bible. Isoteric meaning that when you reads that Bible, he's going into it trying to see what he could break down, interpret, find fault in, and state his case. When one reads the Bible exoterically, he grows with every word. An exoteric reader of the Bible lets the words come to him and work through him thus the Bible is explaining itself to him. By reading the Bible this way, he understands the words and spirit of the Bible. That's the difference.

Remember, "One weak without the Bible...
Makes one weak."

Love,

Your Pastor Bruce S.

[Pastor Bruce S.]

Originally posted by FORD
....Most of which are fronts for Pat Robertson's African diamond mines.
Hi Ford. That's what's great about you. Always got to ruffle some feathers. But you know what friend. The Good pastor thinks you are "A" "OKAY!"

Before you make any accusations at Mr. Robertson, know that it could just be hearsay or rumors. And if what you're insinuating is true, Mr. Robertson's fortune in diamonds does not take away from God's word.

If put under the microscope long enough, you evenually will find fault with any believer of the Christian faith. Afterall, we are all human and humans live in a fallen world. No man besides Jesus was sinless nor is anyone perfect, including myself. It is through Jesus that we have a road to salvation. That is why he is revered by us Christians.

You see my amigo, people's approach to the Bible is all wrong. People are isoteric when reading the Bible. Isoteric meaning that when you reads that Bible, he's going into it trying to see what he could break down, interpret, find fault in, and state his case. When one reads the Bible exoterically, he grows with every word. An exoteric reader of the Bible lets the words come to him and work through him thus the Bible is explaining itself to him. By reading the Bible this way, he understands the words and spirit of the Bible. That's the difference.

Remember, "One week without the Bible...
Makes one weak."

Love,

Your Pastor Bruce S.

[Hardrock69]

One Week Without the Bible...
Makes one week....

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
One Week Without the Bible...
Makes one week....

Now, that makes much more sense! Thanks! :D

[Warham]

I arrived at my beliefs through careful observation of my fellow man and nature, careful studying and consideration of the Good Book, and logical reasoning using the power of deduction.

Faith in Jesus Christ is a faith based on reason and common sense.

[Keeyth]

Oh look! It's our very own Roth Army bible-thumping nut job! :D

[Warham]

Look, it's the Tin Foil Beanie® nut who believes that George W. Bush pressed a red button under his desk causing 9/11 to happen!

[Keeyth]

Fact: I never said anything about a red button.

Fact: I don't have a Tin Foil Beanie, as I do not share your political views or your fashion sense! ;)

[Warham]

I'd have an easier time defending the scriptures than you would defending those insane and inane conspiracy theories you believe in.

[Keeyth]

Now you're REALLY starting to sound crazy! ;)

Besides, I'm not defending anything. I just put out the facts and question the unexplained wrongs I see in the official story, and you can't seem to come up with any good explanations for them, anymore than Bush can... ...Hmmmm...

[Keeyth]

Thump! Thump! :D

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Bible waving nutjobs have not lined anyone's pockets...

I think you are referring to the Catholic church... [/B]

You saying that catholics can't be bible waving nutjobs?

Hell they invented the concept...:)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Bible waving nutjobs have not lined anyone's pockets...

I think you are referring to the Catholic church...


Originally posted by Seshmeister
You saying that catholics can't be bible waving nutjobs?

Hell they invented the concept...:)

Not to be a defender of the CATHOLIC faith, yes the CHURCH harbors a shit load of wealth (and scummy priests), but Catholicism also theologically expouses earthly goodworks (like helping the poor) as a means of seeking salvation while Evangelicals merely believe that one has only to "accept JESUS" to be the "fat man" squeezing "through the eye of a needle" to get to heaven. Translation, one can be the most evil dick bag, but as long as one procalims to "accept JESUS as his or her personal savior," one can get into the kingdom of God. But if one is an athesist charity worker, he or she can't get into heaven no matter how good of a person he or she may be. It's all bullshit anyway...

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Not to be a defender of the CATHOLIC faith, yes the CHURCH harbors a shit load of wealth (and scummy priests), but Catholicism also theologically expouses earthly goodworks (like helping the poor) as a means of seeking salvation while Evangelicals merely believe that one has only to "accept JESUS" to be the "fat man" squeezing "through the eye of a needle" to get to heaven. Translation, one can be the most evil dick bag, but as long as one procalims to "accept JESUS as his or her personal savior," one can get into the kingdom of God. But if one is an athesist charity worker, he or she can't get into heaven no matter how good of a person he or she may be. It's all bullshit anyway...

The folks who say it's just enough to believe in Christ and that's it will find out their translation is in error.

This is the correct translation:

Scripture: Matthew 25:14-30 (see also Luke 19:12-27)
14 "For it will be as when a man going on a journey called his servants and entrusted to them his property; 15 to one he gave five talents, to another two, to another one, to each according to his ability. Then he went away. 16 He who had received the five talents went at once and traded with them; and he made five talents more. 17 So also, he who had the two talents made two talents more. 18 But he who had received the one talent went and dug in the ground and hid his master's money. 19 Now after a long time the master of those servants came and settled accounts with them. 20 And he who had received the five talents came forward, bringing five talents more, saying, `Master, you delivered to me five talents; here I have made five talents more.' 21 His master said to him, `Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.' 22 And he also who had the two talents came forward, saying, `Master, you delivered to me two talents; here I have made two talents more.' 23 His master said to him, `Well done, good and faithful servant; you have been faithful over a little, I will set you over much; enter into the joy of your master.' 24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, `Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you did not winnow; 25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.' 26 But his master answered him, `You wicked and slothful servant! You knew that I reap where I have not sowed, and gather where I have not winnowed? 27 Then you ought to have invested my money with the bankers, and at my coming I should have received what was my own with interest. 28 So take the talent from him, and give it to him who has the ten talents. 29 For to every one who has will more be given, and he will have abundance; but from him who has not, even what he has will be taken away. 30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.'

[FORD]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Pastor Bruce S.
Hi Ford. That's what's great about you. Always got to ruffle some feathers. But you know what friend. The Good pastor thinks you are "A" "OKAY!"

Before you make any accusations at Mr. Robertson, know that it could just be hearsay or rumors. And if what you're insinuating is true, Mr. Robertson's fortune in diamonds does not take away from God's word.

Each time a lying thief and hypocrite uses God's word in his or her lies it takes away from God's word.

Many people on this planet consider Jesus Christ to be a joke because of how He is represented by Pat Robertson, George Bush Jr, Fred Phelps and others who abuse His name for their own ends.

If put under the microscope long enough, you evenually will find fault with any believer of the Christian faith. Afterall, we are all human and humans live in a fallen world. No man besides Jesus was sinless nor is anyone perfect, including myself. It is through Jesus that we have a road to salvation. That is why he is revered by us Christians.

True enough. But not enough to make me buy your pastor act.

You see my amigo, people's approach to the Bible is all wrong. People are isoteric when reading the Bible. Isoteric meaning that when you reads that Bible, he's going into it trying to see what he could break down, interpret, find fault in, and state his case. When one reads the Bible exoterically, he grows with every word. An exoteric reader of the Bible lets the words come to him and work through him thus the Bible is explaining itself to him. By reading the Bible this way, he understands the words and spirit of the Bible. That's the difference.

My Bible says that it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to get in to Heaven. Since Jesus spoke these words in the presence of the Pharisees, it is reasonable to assume He was referring to those who made money from religion especially (since He already established His feelings on that topic when He kicked the moneychangers asses at the Temple.

Therefore, it's not much of a stretch to guess how the Lord would feel about a diamond mining operation posing as a charity and soliciting funds from CBN viewers.

[ELVIS]

What about your Jesus act ??

:rolleyes:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
You saying that catholics can't be bible waving nutjobs?

Hell they invented the concept...:)

Catholics generally are told not to read the Bible, that it can make them crazy...

Seriously...


:elvis:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Catholics generally are told not to read the Bible, that it can make them crazy...

Seriously...


:elvis:

Um...ELVIS, I was raised CATHOLIC. And I have no idea what the hell you're talking about...

http://home.online.no/~ov-egela/img/crazy.jpg

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Warham
Faith in Jesus Christ is a faith based on reason and common sense.

Just as is believing in the sanctity and omnipresence of The Holy Buttplug...

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Warham
The folks who say it's just enough to believe in Christ and that's it will find out their translation is in error.

This is the correct translation:

Scripture: Matthew 25:14-30 (see also Luke 19:12-27)
14 "Blah Blah Blah Woof Woof.'


Keep in mind that the stories themselves from The four Gospels cannot serve as examples of eyewitness accounts since they came as products of the minds of the unknown authors, and not from the characters themselves.

The Gospels describe narrative stories, written almost virtually in the third person. People who wish to portray themselves as eyewitnesses will write in the first person, not in the third person. Moreover, many of the passages attributed to Jesus could only have come from the invention of its authors. For example, many of the statements of Jesus claim to have come from him while allegedly alone. If so, who heard him?

It becomes even more marked when the evangelists report about what Jesus thought. To whom did Jesus confide his thoughts? Clearly, the Gospels employ techniques that fictional writers use. In any case the Gospels can only serve, at best, as hearsay, and at worst, as fictional, mythological, or falsified stories.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Blah blah blah blah words and stuff. Blah blah blah blah Bible, blah blah I'm a dumbass. Blah blah blah I'm smarter that everyone else blah blah blah, especially people who call themselves Christians blah blah. Blah blah blah my intellect is so impressive blah blah blah.


Hardhead69


:elvis:

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Warham
I'd have an easier time defending the scriptures than you would defending those insane and inane conspiracy theories you believe in. There is nothing to defend. You might as well defend the script to Star Wars!

[nosuchluck]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Catholics generally are told not to read the Bible, that it can make them crazy...

Seriously...


:elvis:

wha?!

where did you get that from?:confused:

[Warham]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Blah blah woof woof!

What was that you said?

[Warham]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
There is nothing to defend. You might as well defend the script to Star Wars!

I can defend George Lucas' script choices easier than Keeyth can defend his beliefs in 9/11 conspiracy nonsense.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
I can defend George Lucas' script choices easier than Keeyth can defend his beliefs in 9/11 conspiracy nonsense.

Given all the parallels between the rise of the Galactic Empire in the recent movies, and that of the neocon PNAC empire here on Earth, I'm not so sure George Lucas would agree with you.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by nosuchluck
wha?!

where did you get that from?:confused:

I've heard that from local former Catholics...

And that only the priests and other church leaders are qualified to interpret scripture...

Something like that...

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I've heard that from local former Catholics...

And that only the priests and other church leaders are qualified to interpret scripture...

Something like that...

It's the whole idea of a church hierachy. But I've seen similar words coming from you, Mr. Presley.

Something about not trusting in "your own understanding" of Scriptures, and that you should trust what your Pastor says it means.

There's nothing in the words of Jesus Christ that supports this idea. Not even in the words of Paul.

In fact, Paul, in the 12th chapter of 1st Corinthians, discusses gifts of the Holy Spirit, one of which is the ability to interpret Scriptures & Prophecy. Nowhere in that description are there any job titles listed.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I've heard that from local former Catholics...

And that only the priests and other church leaders are qualified to interpret scripture...

Something like that...

Well they did keep services in Latin until when, the 1960s?

The more I look at the bible I can see why...

[rustoffa]

Originally posted by FORD
Given all the parallels between the rise of the Galactic Empire in the recent movies, and that of the neocon PNAC empire here on Earth, I'm not so sure George Lucas would agree with you.


Q: Mr. Lucas, I don't think there's an American under 40 who's life hasn't been influenced by Star Wars. Your vision of this fantastic, alien universe, and the struggle of these few, noble people against an overwhelming evil, this rich, wonderful world of technology and magic and monsters-

A: -Do you have a question?

Q: Um, okay, I... you're about to go into post-production on Episode 2. What can you possibly do to top the incredible effects work in The Phantom Menace, which had more than 2,000 CGI visuals? Are you ready to break new ground once again?

Lucas fishes a cigarette from his shirt pocket, and ignites it with an engraved Zippo lighter. He stands and wanders around the room, mumbling...

A: Oh, you know... we'll have the....the rocket ships and... mmmnnuuuhhhhmmm....

Q: I... okay. Moving on to the next question... How do you feel about criticism from fans over the somewhat juvenile tone of the last film, parts of it playing like a children's movie? Even the battle scenes featured robots and lovable aliens, rather than humans, in combat...

A: Oh, make no mistake, Johnny. Many, many men died in Menace. Especially when that huge space station blew at the end. Thousands. Listen closely and you can hear their screams as their bodies are shredded like stew meat. If you zoom in on the blast, you'll see little chunks of them flying at the camera, including the severed head of a little girl, still screaming for her mother in the cold, hellish vaccuum of space. Oh, there was blood like a river. And it was delicious.

Q: Ahem. Yes. I suppose you did have that at the end, but for the bulk of the film you have to admit it did seem aimed toward a younger demographic...

A: Yes. It's much like a trap, you see. I lure them in with the cute creatures and bright colors. Here, little girl. Look at the funny alien with his floppy ears! Look at the cute little boy in his rocket car! Then BAM!! Look at the charred bodies! LOOK AT THEM! LOOK AT THE BLACK CARNIVAL OF HORROR YOU WERE BORN INTO!!! You can stop crying now, little girl. For today, you have become a man.

Q: Soooooo..... um, following that track, I have heard other critics say the opposite, that your films feature too much clean, casual killing. I personally think that's an empty criticism. It's logical that if you're making films about an interstellar war, you must show the unfortunate results in terms of lost lives and...

A: Not really. I just get a pure, almost sexual thrill from depicting death. Death and I are old lovers. We shall meet again some day, in an eternal embrace. Soon.

He pauses to take a long drag off his cigarette.

Oh, if only I had died in the womb.

A: Okay. Mr. Lucas, I must admit I'm surprised by your... Mr. Lucas?

Lucas slowly lies down on the carpet of my office, curling into a fetal position. He closes his eyes.

Q: Mr. Lucas?

A: Nap time!

Q: Uhhh.... so, do you want to end the interview?

Lucas springs to his feet, suddenly alert. He flicks ashes onto my desk.

A: I want you to understand something. You don't own me. And I am not taking any more guff from you.

Q: I'm......sorry. I guess. Well, getting back to the films. We know now that Jar Jar Binks will be back for Episode 2. Not all viewers found Jar Jar to be-

A: -my films are a weapon. You understand? A weapon against the audience. Jar Jar was like a dagger; a honed, jagged blade plunged into your eye. Oh, and I have plenty more where that came from. Meesa gonna make-uh you wisha you were-ah DEAD!

Another pause. A layer of sweat coated my face.

Q: I, uh, want to make it clear to the readers that you're under a lot of stress with the schedule you keep-

A: Let's make this interesting. You use another preposition, and I will make you drink pain. Got it?

Q: I....I don't think-

A: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Q: Oh. Ha ha ha ha ha!

A: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Q: Ha ha ha! Just having a little fun here, right?

A: HA HA HA HA HO HO HO!!!

Q: Now, after the-

Lucas jams his cigarette into my cheek with a piercing hiss.

Q: AAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!!

A: What did I tell you? WHAT DID I TELL YOU?

I looked at him, my hand clasped to my singed cheek. Tears streamed down my eyes.

Q: You... you're crazy!!

A: Your questions would drive anyone insane. You've insaned me!

Q: What?

A: Look at those questions. Do it!

I glanced down at my notes.

Q: There's nothing wrong with-

A: They seem to be covered in urine.

Q: What? No!! Mr. Lucas!!!

George Lucas climbed onto my desk, unzipping his fly. I jumped from my chair, barely missing the five-minute long stream of urine that splashed over the papers, my chair, and a good portion of the carpet.

Relieved, Lucas zipped up and casually strode to the door.

A: Tell anyone you want about this. No one will believe you. If you try to follow me, you'll be as dead as Alec Guinness.

And with that, he was gone. I looked at the door for a long time after he left, still trembling. I faintly heard the outside door close; a moment later, a woman on the sidewalk shrieked in horror. A dog barked. A moment later it yelped in pain, and was silent.

I sighed and glanced back at my urine-stinking office, one thought echoing through my mind like a drumbeat:

The man is a genius.

[Sarge's Little Helper]

Hardhead69 sucks cock.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
Something about not trusting in "your own understanding" of Scriptures, and that you should trust what your Pastor says it means.



No, what I meant the times I said that was just how Proverbs 3:5-6 reads...

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct they paths.

I think it's important to consult with, In my case, Pastor Danny, my spiritual leader for guidance...

He doesn't in any way tell me what to do, If that's what ypu're implying or getting at...

People need people, my friend...


:elvis:

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
No, what I meant the times I said that was just how Proverbs 3:5-6 reads...

Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct they paths.

I think it's important to consult with, In my case, Pastor Danny, my spiritual leader for guidance...

He doesn't in any way tell me what to do, If that's what ypu're implying or getting at...

People need people, my friend...


:elvis:

But if you have the Spritual gift of interpretation, and Pastor Danny doesn't, then why would you take his word for it?

Different people are given different gifts by the Holy Spirit, of course. But unless a minister in fact, has such a gift, then who is he to intrpret Scripture for others. Wouldn't he be "leaning to his own understanding"??

[ELVIS]

He doesn't answer in absolutes...

He assists in finding an answer etc...

A collaborative effort is betterin anything you do...


Good night


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
But if you have the Spritual gift of interpretation, and Pastor Danny doesn't, then why would you take his word for it?



Pastor Danny Does!

I'm sure of that...


Good Night

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Pastor Danny Does!

I'm sure of that...


Good Night

If he does, that's great. I think it should be a requirement for pastors, actually.

Maybe that's why my missionary great grandmother thought I should have been one?

[nosuchluck]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I've heard that from local former Catholics...

And that only the priests and other church leaders are qualified to interpret scripture...

Something like that...

Bible readings are a part of Catholic sermons. ALL the catholics i've ever met (i'm catholic too, btw) read the Bible ...

[nosuchluck]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Bogus ?

http://www.noahsarksearch.com/ararat_anomaly_1949_Frame%202.jpg

http://www.noahsarksearch.com/ararat_anomaly_1949_Frame%202_closeup.jpg

http://www.imagingnotes.com/novdec00/graphics/tay1hi.gif


:elvis:

yeah those pics are definitely bogus - or atleast suspect, to say the least.

that colour pic is definitely a graphic. how am i so sure? i see rendered images like that pretty much everyday, and i work with some of that software quite often...

[ashstralia]

Originally posted by nosuchluck
that colour pic is definitely a graphic.

duh, really?

[nosuchluck]

Originally posted by ashstralia
duh, really?

:p

i think some people thought those were real photos...

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Pastor Danny Does!

I'm sure of that...


Good Night

Pastor Danny does have one thing in common with FORD.

He impersonates Jesus.

I thought you didn't like that?

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by ELVIS

Blah blah blah blah words and stuff. Blah blah blah blah Bible, blah blah I'm a dumbass. Blah blah blah I'm smarter that everyone else blah blah blah, especially people who call themselves Christians blah blah. Blah blah blah my intellect is so impressive blah blah blah.

I never said that, you did.

But if you wish to think that, that is your problem.


Originally posted by ELVIS
Hardhead69
:elvis:


Originally posted by Sarge's Little Helper
Hardhead69 sucks cock.

Last edited by ELVIS on 10-01-2005 at 11:38 PM



Now Elvis is reduced to calling me names.

It is past his bedtime, and he is cranky.



Originally posted by Warham Blah Blah Woof Woof
What was that you said?

Warham that was not my statement.
It is not my problem you are unable to read.

[Jerry Falwell]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Right there my initial and first objection to Christianity.

You can be born in Africa in the middle of the jungle, live a beautiful life helping your fellow man. When you die since you never worshipped Jesus even though you had never even heard of him, it's torture and damnation time...

Does this answer any questions about people not having an excuse about knowing who God is?


Romans 1:18-31 (New International Version)
New International Version (NIV)

Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by International Bible Society
NIV at IBS International Bible Society NIV at Zondervan Zondervan

God's Wrath Against Mankind
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.

24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by nosuchluck

that colour pic is definitely a graphic.

Uhh yeah duh yeah...:cato:

It's a computer model, I know that, what's your point again ?

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Jerry Falwell
Does this answer any questions about people not having an excuse about knowing who God is?


No.

In fact it makes no sense, and is not relevant to the post by Sesh.

All the above says is people who do not know God will burn in Hell for not believing in God.

I am sure that you think there are many Muslims & Jews who will burn in Hell then, eh?

[Satan]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
No.

In fact it makes no sense, and is not relevant to the post by Sesh.

All the above says is people who do not know God will burn in Hell for not believing in God.

I am sure that you think there are many Muslims & Jews who will burn in Hell then, eh?

If he does, I hope he plans on helping me pay some of my construction costs for expanding Hell :mad:

[Hardrock69]

What are you talking about? Haliburton is already expanding your domain over in Iraq!

And it is being funded by the U.S. Taxpayers!

[Warham]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
No.

In fact it makes no sense, and is not relevant to the post by Sesh.

All the above says is people who do not know God will burn in Hell for not believing in God.

I am sure that you think there are many Muslims & Jews who will burn in Hell then, eh?

Hell is a voluntary destination. Remember, free will and all that jazz.

[nosuchluck]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Uhh yeah duh yeah...:cato:

It's a computer model, I know that, what's your point again ?

you said "bogus?"
i said "yeah"

pay attention:)

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Warham
Hell is a voluntary destination. Remember, free will and all that jazz.

True, but of course there are many Christian Zealots out there who claim that if you do not believe in their "Christian" God then you will taking up space in Satan's soon-to-be-expanded barbecue pit...

:D

[Warham]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
True, but of course there are many Christian Zealots out there who claim that if you do not believe in their "Christian" God then you will taking up space in Satan's soon-to-be-expanded barbecue pit...

:D

Well, the punishment in Hell varies according to what you did in your life. Not everybody is punished the same.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Well, the punishment in Hell varies according to what you did in your life. Not everybody is punished the same.


Does that mean...


Oh no!:confused:



http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/paramount_pictures/sahara/sammy_hagar/saharapreg.jpg

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Warham
I can defend George Lucas' script choices easier than Keeyth can defend his beliefs in 9/11 conspiracy nonsense.

Not likely. You haven't ever been able to give any logical answers to my "conspiracy" questions and arguments, therefore making them easy for me to defend to this day.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Keeyth
Not likely. You haven't ever been able to give any logical answers to my "conspiracy" questions and arguments, therefore making them easy for me to defend to this day.

I don't give logical responses to illogical questions.

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Warham
I don't give logical responses.

Ain't THAT the truth!:D

[Warham]

Originally posted by Keeyth
Ain't THAT the truth!:D

I see that Tin Foil Beanie® doesn't allow you to receive the total message sent.

We'll have to work on that.

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Warham
I simply LOVE my new Tin Foil Beanie®
It is just soooo the total fashion message I want sent.

Thanks to Bush, I'm still out of work.

:p

[Warham]

Resorting to kiddie tactics to try and defend yourself there, Keef?

[Keeyth]

Just having a little fun with ya, not defending anything.

Ever heard of a sense of humor?? :D

[Jerry Falwell]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
No.

In fact it makes no sense, and is not relevant to the post by Sesh.

All the above says is people who do not know God will burn in Hell for not believing in God.

I am sure that you think there are many Muslims & Jews who will burn in Hell then, eh?


First off... do I think that there are Muslims and Jews that will not make it into Heaven- Yes, absolutely! Anyone who doesn't believe that Yeshua is their Lord and Savior will end up being shunned at those "Pearly Gates".

Secondly, to your interpretation of what you read- I beg to differ with you. You say that, "All the above says is people who do not know God will burn in hell for not knowing God."
I couldn't disagree with that statement more (Nice Twist buddy). If they truly did not know God, or did not get the opportunity to think for themselves due to mental disabilities, youth, etc..., then I believe they will be accepted with open arms. However, the verse that I was referring to suggests that everyone on this earth clearly knows that God is God. They have no excuses for denying Him.
So please allow me to revise your earlier statement. Everyone with a capable mind DOES indeed know God. Those that turn Him away will surely be judged accordingly. Pure and simple! They have hardened hearts because of the choice they have made to not pursue the Truth.
Please read this passage again and tell me where I am translating it wrong.

20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

[jacksmar]

You know what? This is all I have to say to anyone about The Bible:

If you want a modern day outline for how to best live your life, read Christ’s Sermon on the Mount.

It is an outline of daily life given to us by the Creator through Jesus Christ.

The message is simple: You’re free. What you do with that freedom and how you utilize it is different for every man. Every man has a different truth.

….MMMKK?

:angel:

[Jerry Falwell]

Originally posted by jacksmar


The message is simple: You’re free. What you do with that freedom and how you utilize it is different for every man. Every man has a different truth.

….MMMKK?

:angel: [/B]

What version are you reading?
I'll play though. If every man has a different truth, how do you know that your truth is right?

[Keeyth]

The Question: Is Hell Exo-Thermic (gives off heat) or Endo-thermic (absorbs heat)

THE BEST ANSWER:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell.

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to
increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.


So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you", and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over.

The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God."

[Keeyth]

:D

[jacksmar]

Rev Falwell, to quote Emmet Fox:
"The Truth turns out to be nothing less than the amazing but undeniable fact that the whole outer world--whether it be the physical body, the common things of life, the winds and the rain, the clouds, the earth itself--is amenable to man's thought, and that he has dominion over it when he knows it."

[Jerry Falwell]

Originally posted by Keeyth
The Question: Is Hell Exo-Thermic (gives off heat) or Endo-thermic (absorbs heat)

THE BEST ANSWER:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, let's look at the different religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell.

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to
increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle's Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.


So which is it? If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you", and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over.

The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God."

I was once an engineer with a great deal of science being part of my education... I can appreciate the Wit used in your reply. Although I don't agree with it, it was a fun read!!! :D

[Jerry Falwell]

Originally posted by jacksmar
Rev Falwell, to quote Emmet Fox:
"The Truth turns out to be nothing less than the amazing but undeniable fact that the whole outer world--whether it be the physical body, the common things of life, the winds and the rain, the clouds, the earth itself--is amenable to man's thought, and that he has dominion over it when he knows it."

Do we really have control over anything other than our thoughts and motor functions? I know that I have been unsuccessful at making the wind blow when I wanted it to. God on the otherhand... ;)

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Jerry Falwell
I was once an engineer with a great deal of science being part of my education...


Interesting that you chose to become a preacher then, as it is commonly accepted that science disproves religion...

[Jerry Falwell]

Originally posted by Keeyth
Interesting that you chose to become a preacher then, as it is commonly accepted that science disproves religion...

I take the stance that science can prove religion.

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Jerry Falwell
Do we really have control over anything other than our thoughts and motor functions? I know that I have been unsuccessful at making the wind blow when I wanted it to. God on the otherhand... ;)




Yes we do. some more than others.

The Powers That Be have control over our armed forces.

Jerry Falwell has control over the millions of dollars he rakes in annually from gullible people.

I need not use any further examples....suffice it to say there are very many others...

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Jerry Falwell
I take the stance that science can prove religion.


I take the third stance.

Science cannot prove religion.

It is NOT "commonly known" that science can disprove religion.


Science is a study of the physical world.

Period.

Religion is only a belief system, and a "belief" is not a physical object.

Science can prove that this is an amazing universe, and it is full of wonderous things, but that is all.

Science classes in schools need only be required to teach SCIENCE.

The question of "who" or "what" created the universe (or "why" it was created) does not fall into the realms of scientific study...if anything it should be filed (if not under religion) under "history", as obviously many billions of years ago, our universe came into being.

Science is only concerned with the physical process by which that occured.

Not the reasons WHY it occured.

Leave religion to Churches, Synagogues, Mosques, etc. and those who inhabit them.

Let religion have no place in Government.

Let worship have no place in our public schools.

Schools are for EDUCATION.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Keeyth
Interesting that you chose to become a preacher then, as it is commonly accepted that science disproves religion...

Science doesn't disprove religion.

[Keeyth]

Well, science does prove that in order for the human species to reproduce, it requires a man and a woman, correct?

Second, your bible decries incest as wrong, am I still correct?

And, according to your religious beliefs, God created Adam and Eve, and Adam and Eve had only three sons, am I still correct?

So therefore, for the human race to have begun from that point, then that means, without a doubt, that SOMEBODY is a motherfucker, in the very biblical sense, wouldn't you agree?

And if that is the case, then what that proves to me is that religious people who 'thump' the bible are hypocrites, just as much as the people who wrote the bible are.

[Keeyth]

Hey Eve!

Look, I'll pay ya for it... ..what the fuck? :D

[Warham]

Originally posted by Keeyth
Well, science does prove that in order for the human species to reproduce, it requires a man and a woman, correct?

Second, your bible decries incest as wrong, am I still correct?

And, according to your religious beliefs, God created Adam and Eve, and Adam and Eve had only three sons, am I still correct?

So therefore, for the human race to have begun from that point, then that means, without a doubt, that SOMEBODY is a motherfucker, in the very biblical sense, wouldn't you agree?

And if that is the case, then what that proves to me is that religious people who 'thump' the bible are hypocrites, just as much as the people who wrote the bible are.

First: A man and woman are needed, yes.

Second: Yes, incest was wrong after the Ten Commandments were laid down.

Third: God did create Adam and Eve, and then had many children. The Bible doesn't mention more than Cain, Abel, and Seth, but it's assumed they have many more since they both lived until they were in their 900's.

Fourth: From an article which explains it better than I can:

'In later generations, brother-sister marriages would be outlawed as genetically dangerous and would be considered as "incest," which God is expressly against. 17 Not only the Bible but almost all modern legal codes refuse to sanction marriages of close relatives. The scientific reason for this restriction is that the children of such marriages have a high percentage of being deformed, sickly and/or moronic than those of other marriages, a genetic trait noted in most lawyers. :-) The genetic basis for this probability is that inherited mutant genes, producing such unwholesome characteristics, are more likely if they are carried by both parents, since these mutant genes would be reinforced. This theory is based on the Bible teaching that Adam was the "first man" 18 and that Eve was "the mother of all living". 19

However, there were no mutant genes in the genetic systems of Adam and Eve, because they came directly from God Himself. Thus no genetic harm could have resulted had Cain or some other son of Adam married his sister. In fact, it would undoubtedly have taken many generations before enough genetic mutations (which are random, and therefore harmful, changes in the highly ordered structure of the germ cell, brought about by penetration of the cell by shortwave-length radiation or some other destructive agent) could have accumulated in the human race to make such marriages of close relatives genetically harmful.'

Fifth: Research is a wonderful thing. If you had these questions, you could have found the answers. You have no excuse before God.

:eek:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Warham

Third: God did create Adam and Eve, and then had many children. The Bible doesn't mention more than Cain, Abel, and Seth, but it's assumed they have many more since they both lived until they were in their 900's.


LMAO!

[Warham]

What's so funny, Sesh?