The BIG problem with the Jesus story

[Seshmeister]

If 80% of the story is just stuff absorbed from myths then why should we believe any of it?

Mithraism, a religion derived from Zoroastrism, was very popular in Rome at the same time that Christianity was spreading. Mithras was believed to be the son of the sun, sent to the earth to rescue humankind. Two centuries before the appearance of Jesus, the myth of Mithras held that Mithras was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds. Mithras sacrificed himself and the last day had a supper with twelve of his followers. At that supper Mithras invited his followes to eat his body and drink his blood. He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again. Mithras' festival coincided with the Christian Easter.

This legend dates from at least one century before Jesus. It was absorbed in the Roman dogma. Jesus' attitude often resembles the legendary greek philospher Socrates (eg, the way he refuses to respond to Pilate).

The Egyptian god Osiris was also born on the 25th of December, died on a friday and resurrected after spending three days in the underworld.

The Roman god Dionysus was hailed as `The Saviour of Mankind' and `The Son of God'. Dionysus was born (on December 25) when Zeus visited Persephone. Therefore, his father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin. Announced by a star, he is born in a cowshed and visited by three Magis. He turns water into wine and raises people from the dead. He is followed by twelve apostles. Dionysus' resurrection was a popular myth throughout the Roman empire, although his name was different in each country. The rituals in honor of Dionysus included a meal of bread and wine, symbolizing his body and blood.

An amulet of the 3rd century has been found that depicts a crucified man (unmistakably Jesus) but bears the inscription "Orpheus Bacchus", which was yet another name for Dionysus. The 5th century Egyptian poet Nonnus wrote two long epic poems in Greek, one on the conquest of the world by Dionysus, and the other a verse paraphrase of one of the Christian gospels. Unfortunately, we know little of the Dionysus' faith because in 396 a mob of fanatical Christians destroyed the sanctuary of Eleusis, likely to have been the largest religious center in the world. We only know that the rituals were very popular and lasted several days.

The early Christians revered Dionysus's birthday as Jesus's birthday (Christmas) and the three-day Spring festival of Dionysus roughly coincides with Easter. Jews had their own version of this festival (the "therapeutae") since at least the year 10 (it is reported by Philo of Alexandria), which is 23 years before the crucifixion of Jesus (Armenians still celebrate the birthday of Jesus on january 6).

Jesus lived right at the beginning of the Roman empire. The first emperor, "Augustus", had the title of "saviour of the human race". The legend was that Augustus had been born nine months after his mother was "visited" by the god Apollo. The greatest Roman poet of all time, Virgil, had foretold in 40BC that a king would be born of a virgin. It was false, but it was widely believed by ordinary Romans that, in the year of Augustus' birth, the Roman senate had ordered the murder of all other children.

Pre-existing legends and current events influenced the way the official gospels were selected and doctored. Some scholars have even suggested the entire history of Jesus is a myth, based on pre-existing myths that were assembled by "gnostic" jews.

The official gospels were carefully chosen and edited to reflect a view acceptable to the Roman authorities and audience. For example, the official gospels blamed the Jews for killing Jesus, even if, of course, it was the Romans who killed him (for sedition). The earliest account of the life of Jesus, St Mark's gospel, was written during the Jewish rebellion of 66. It was not a time to claim that Jesus was a Jewish revolutionary. Jesus, in fact, is presented as a victim of the Jews.

[Hardrock69]

Take also into consideration that there exists NO CONTEMPORARY WRITINGS ABOUT JESUS WHATSOEVER!!!!

Look....the earliest writings of the New Testament date back to about 70 A.D., and it is common knowledge amongst Biblical Scholars that the earliest existing scrolls, parchment etc. were copies, or copies of copies.

It is also widely known that the 4 Gospels were NOT written by John, Luke, Matthew, or Mark. In fact, one or more of the Gospels was written by more than one person.

There are many books, writings, etc. that exist from the period when Jesus was still alive that are NOT in the Bible. Yet not ONE of them mentions Jesus.

The New Testament has so many statements like "His fame was spread far and wide" and "The multitudes flocked to where Jesus was", etc. etc.

Yet there is no mention of Jesus by ANY writers in the Middle East or the Mediterranean who lived and wrote during Jesus's lifetime.

If he was so famous and so well known, why is it that there is no mention of him by anyone who lived during that time period?

So if you want to get down to brass tacks, there is no actual evidence that Jesus ever existed.

There was an ossuary or bone box discovered a few years ago that supposedly had the inscription written on it "James, brother of Jesus".

It created quite a stir, as it would have been the first FACTUAL archaeological evidence that Jesus was a real person.

However it was soon discovered that it was the work of a forger of antiquities, who had been creating forgeries of MANY "ancient" objects and selling them to museums and collectors. He was busted by the Israeli authorities and given a lengthy prison sentence. There was a show on TLC or Discovery Channel recently called "Interpol Investigates", and they devoted an entire show to this guy.

Also, one must take into consideration the fact that there is just as much evidence that Jesus either a) survived the crucifixion, or b) had a substitute on the cross (meaning he survived anyway).

The history of the early Christian Church has been an interest of mine for the past 20 years, and there is much factual stuff I could post right now if I were at home with access to my library.

It is fact that Emperor Constantine saw that the Roman Empire could not survive through force, but if one were to instill a religion in the people of the Empire, the Religion could survive for a VERY long time, as you cannot kill an idea.

Needless to say, the Roman Empire is alive and well, and has a seat on the United Nations, has it's own Bank, and it's own headquarters...in The Vatican.

I may post more stuff later.
But it is a FACT that the whole Christian myth about Jesus, his miracles, being resurrected from the dead, etc. is simply a very old fairy tale.

[flappo]

heavy man

[Golden AWe]

very interesting!

[Jesus Christ]

Fine. You're all going to Hell then :mad:

[GAR]

From Hebrews 12:8 (New Innacurate Version)
(NIV) Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984 by Innacural Bible Society

8If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.


In Heb. 12:8, the word (Gr. nothoi) is used in its ordinary sense, and denotes those who do not share the privileges of God's children.

"Nothos" in the singular and "nothoi" in the plural, is the ancient Greeks' term for "bastard." The child of a non-citizen and a citizen in Classical Athens was not legitimate (a nothos) and would not have citizenship rights.

According to the Bible, Jesus is not the ONLY Son of God, just the only one BORN. Without a his BabyDADDY around, at that. But I'd count the gold, frankincense and myrrh bling-bling he got around his first or second birthday as probably a token of child support, so it's not like G-d don't pay his paternity bills n'shit..

G-d is a heavenly father, not a perfect or legitimate one.

[GAR]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
If 80% of the story is just stuff absorbed from myths then why should we believe any of it?

If only 20% of the story is real I'd say there's cause to be concerned.

[DR CHIP]

Just for you Sesh!!!
:)

Back in the Roman era, Mithraism was perhaps Christianity's leading competitor for the hearts and minds of others. Today Mithraism is religiously a non-factor, but it still "competes" with Christianity, in another way: It is a leading candidate for the "pagan copycat" thesis crowd as a supposed source for Christianity.

Our walking papers are laid out for us by a leading proponent of that view, Acharya S, who, in her magnum opus The Christ Conspiracy (118-120), lays out over a dozen things that Jesus supposedly has in common with Mithras and, by extension, Christianity allegedly borrowed to create the Jesus character; some of these points she now defends further in a work titled Suns of God: Krishna, Buddha and Christ Unveiled, which is presently only available in sample chapters on her Internet page. The points are:

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.
He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
He had 12 companions or disciples.
Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
He performed miracles.
As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah."
His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.
Mithra had his principal festival of what was later to become Easter.
His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
"His annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration."
Shmuel Golding is quoted as saying that 1 Cor. 10:4 is "identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ."
The Catholic Encyclopedia is quoted as saying that Mithraic services were conduced by "fathers" and that the "chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called 'Pater Patratus.'"
Our goal in this essay is to offer an overview of Mithraic belief and at the same time analyze each of these claims in terms of the evidence. In order to lay some groundwork, however, it will be necessary to briefly explore the goings-on over the past few decades in the field of Mithraic studies. There is a certain caveat emptor that will be necessary in order to help the reader understand exactly how critics like Acharya S are misusing their sources -- and what to be on the lookout for in future comparisons.



From Cumont to Ulansey: The Mithraic Studies Revolution
In 1975, Mithraic studies scholar John Hinnells lamented "the practical difficulty of any one scholar mastering all the necessary fields" -- linguistics, anthropology, history (Indian, Iranian, and Roman!), archaeology, iconography, sociology -- in order to get a grip on Mithraic studies. Hinnells of course is on target with his lament; we have made the same observation here regarding Biblical studies. But Mithraism being a relatively dead religion, there are no equivalents of seminaries keeping the Mithraic studies flame alive, and no past history of "Mithraic Fathers" who produced voluminous works and meditations upon Mithra. Thus it is not surprising that for the longest time, from the end of the 19th century until the middle of the 20th, there was only one person in the world who could be regarded as any sort of authority on Mithraism -- and that was Franz Cumont.

Cumont worked with the thesis that Mithraic belief was of a continuous, fairly invariable tapestry from it's earliest history up into the Roman period. The first remaining record of a god named Mithra appears as a deity invoked in a treaty dated 1400 BC [Hinn.MS, ix]; thereafter he is one of several Indo-Iranian gods, and he is known for giving orders, assembling people, and marshalling them -- perhaps with some militaristic overtones. He also appears as one who represents the concept of fidelity -- one of many such abstractions and personifications of virtues in the ancient East, such as Bhaga the god of sharing and Aryaman the god of hospitality (think of them as divine-level Care Bears, if you will). As such, Mithra was the guy who went around dishing out punishment to those who broke treaties. He was the "guardian of the truth," "most dear to men," one "whose long arms seize the liar," who "injures no one and is everyone's friend," one who was all-seeing and all-knowing -- the sun was his "eye" on the world. Mithra was responsible also for bringing rain, vegetation and health -- for in the ancient eastern mind, it is the moral behavior of persons (especially the king) that determines the national welfare and brings a fertile climate. If the king in your land broke a treaty, you would be advised to pack up if you were a farmer, because Mithra would soon be gliding in on his chariot with a boar shape on the front (accompanied by a divine sidekick representing Victory) to kick some tail and put things right [MS.27-51]. At other times Mithra was paired with a deity named Varuna, who was his superior. Varuna was the god in charge of helping men cultivate rice (although rice "ripening in the untilled soil" was still Mithra's business), so the two of them together oversaw the agricultural aspects of men's lives.

The ancient Mithra was a great guy. Lord of the Contract, Upholder of Truth. Peaceful, benevolent, protector, provider of a nice place to live and cattle, not easily provoked. A little later in Aryan history, he did become more of a warrior (previously, he had left a lot of the tail-kicking duties to Varuna), but then switched back to pacifism. But then Zoroastrianism came along, and Mithra had some new things to do. He served as mediator between Ohrmazd and Ahriman, the good and bad gods of Zoroastrian dualism; but at the same time, he underwent something of a demotion as he became one of a group of seven lesser yazatas who served the upper-level deities [Cum.MM, 5] and was assigned some special escort duties: bringing demons to hell, and bringing souls to Paradise.

For a while after, things seem to have been quiet for Mithra. As late as the first century BC, Mithra is still associated with the sun along with Apollos and Hermes. [MS.129] So, why all this background? The problem was that Cumont was entirely wrong about very ancient (we shall say for convenience, Iranian) Mithraism being in continuity with Roman Mithraism. For you see, the Roman Mithra was best known for his act of slaying a bull; yet there is no indication that the Iranian Mithra ever made his way into a bullpen for any reason. [MS, xiii] The Roman Mithra didn't appear at all interested in contract enforcement or escorting demons into hell. (Most likely, because demons are terrible tippers.) And to make matters more complex, his followers in Iran, unlike the Roman Mithraists, did not worship in cave-like rooms (although Porphyry did think, incorrectly, that Zoroaster, the "putative founder of the cult," originated the idea of a cave as the image of the cosmos -- Beck.PO, 8), design levels of initiation, or pursue secrecy. [Ulan.OMM, 8] There was simply no solid connection between the two faiths except for the name of the central god, some terminology, and astrological lore of the sort that was widely imported into the Roman Empire from Babylon anyway [Beck.PO, 87].

Nevertheless, because Cumont was locked into the notion of continuity, he assumed (for example) that the Iranian Mithra must have done some bull-slaying somewhere along the line, and he molded the evidence to fit his thesis, straining to find an Iranian myth somewhere that involved a bull-killing (it was done not by Mithra, but by Ahriman) and supposing that there was some connection or unknown story where the Iranian Mithra killed a bull. Cumont's student Vermaseren [Ver.MSG, 17-18] also tried to find a connection, but the closest he could get was a story in which Soma, the god of life (who, as rain, was described as the semen of the sacred bull fertilizing the earth), was murdered by a consortium of gods which included Mithra -- as a very reluctant participant who had to be convinced to go along with the plan. But simply put, the Roman Mithra wasn't anything like the Iranian one. He dressed really sporty, with a Phrygian cap (typical headgear for Orientals of the day) and a flowing cape that would have made Superman green with envy. He slayed a cosmic bull and earned the worship and respect of the sun god. He had new friends, animals that gave him a helping hand (or paw, or claw) with the bull-slaying, as well as two torch-bearing twins who could have passed for his sons. If this was the Iranian Mithra, he obviously went through a midlife crisis at some point. The only thing that remained the same was that Mithra kept a loose association with the sun, which was something many gods had.

By the time of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies in the early 70s, the lack of evidence of an Iranian/Roman continuity led Mithraic scholars to suspect that Roman Mithraism was "a new creation using old Iranian names and details for an exotic coloring to give a suitably esoteric appearance to a mystery cult" [MS, xiii] -- and that Roman Mithraism was Mithraism in name only, merely a new system that used the name of a known ancient Eastern deity to attract urbane Romans who found the east and all of its accoutrements an enticing mystery. Think of it as repackaging an old religion to suit new tastes, only all you keep is the name of the deity! And what was that new religion? For years Mithraic scholars puzzled over the meaning of the bull-slaying scene; the problem was, as we have noted, that the Mithraists left behind pictures without captions. Thus in the 70s, one scholar of Mithraism lamented [MS.437]:

At present our knowledge of both general and local cult practice in respect of rites of passage, ceremonial feats and even underlying ideology is based more on conjecture than fact.
And Cumont himself observed, in the 50s [Cum.MM, 150, 152]:

The sacred books which contain the prayers recited or chanted during the [Mithraic] survives, the ritual on the initiates, and the ceremonials of the feasts, have vanished and left scarce a trace behind...[we] know the esoteric disciplines of the Mysteries only from a few indiscretions.
But before too long, Mithraic scholars noticed something (or actually, revived something first posited in 1869 that Cumont, because of his biases, dismissed -- Ulan.OMM, 15) about the bull-slaying scene: The various human, animal, and other figures comprised a star-map! The bull corresponded with Taurus; the scorpion coincided with Scorpio; the dog matched up with Canis Major, and so on. What Mithra himself corresponded to took a bit longer to decide; Spiedel first made a case for a correspondence with Orion [Spie.MO], but Ulansey has led the way with the thesis that Mithra is here to be identified with Perseus [Ulan.OMM, 26ff], and that Roman Mithraism was founded upon a "revolutionary" discovery in ancient astronomy (which was closely linked to astrology in that time) that "the entire cosmic structure was moving in a way which no one had even known before" -- a process we now call the precession of the equinoxes. In line with the Stoic belief that a divine being was the "source of every natural force," the personifying of natural forces in the form of mythical divine figures, and the origin on the cult in Tarsus, a city long under Persian domination and where Perseus was the leading god, Perseus was the perfect choice -- but this wasn't the type of thing that the cultists wanted everyone to know about, so, Ulansey theorizes, they chose the name of Mithra (a Persian god), partly to cover the identity of Perseus (who was often associated with Persia), partly because of an alliance between the Ciclian pirates who first introduced Mithraism to the Romans and a leader in Asia Minor named Mithridates ("given of Mithra"). [Ulan.OMM, 89] Quite a tangled web, this story.

What has been the point of this diversion? The point is to give the reader a warning, to be on the lookout any time a critic makes some claim about Mithraism somehow being a parallel to Christianity. Check their sources carefully. If, like Acharya S, they cite source material from the Cumont or pre-Cumont era, then chances are excellent that they are using material that is either greatly outdated, or else does not rely on sound scholarship (i.e., prior to Cumont; works by the likes of King, Lajard, and Robertson). Furthermore, if they have asserted anything at all definitive about Mithraic belief, they are probably wrong about it, and certainly basing it on the conjectures of someone who is either not a Mithraic specialist (which is what Freke and Gandy do in The Jesus Mysteries) or else is badly outdated.

Mithraic scholars, you see, do not hold a candle for the thesis that Christianity borrowed anything philosophically from Mithraism, and they do not see any evidence of such borrowing, with one major exception: "The only domain in which we can ascertain in detail the extent to which Christianity imitated Mithraism is that of art." [MS.508n] We are talking here not of apostolic Christianity, note well, but of Christianity in the third and fourth centuries, which, in an effort to prove that their faith was the superior one, embarked on an advertising campaign reminiscent of our soft drink wars. Mithra was depicted slaying the bull while riding its back; the church did a lookalike scene with Samson killing a lion. Mithra sent arrows into a rock to bring forth water; the church changed that into Moses getting water from the rock at Horeb. (Hmm, did the Jews copy that one?) Think of how popular Pokemon is these days, and then think of the church as the one doing the Digimon ripoff -- although one can't really bellow about borrowing in this case, for this happened in an age when art usually was imitative -- it was a sort of one-upsmanship designed as a competition, and the church was not the only one doing it. Furthermore, it didn't involve an exchange or theft of ideology.

As to any other parallels, in the late 60s, before the coming of age of the astrological thesis, appeal was made to the "possibility of Mithraic influence" as appearing "in many instances" -- and then again, the idea that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity was said to have "not been taken seriously enough into consideration." [Lae.MO, 86] But regarded as more likely in any case was that the two systems "could have spoken to a Roman condition, a social need, and a theological question without having known of each other's existence. As in so many other instances of philosophy and literature, parallel thoughts and social patterns can appear independently of one another as 'new' elements with the authentic consciousness of such newness."[ibid.] But such parallels have not been so much as suggested in the wake of the astrological thesis. Today (and even by Cumont) the parallels drawn between the two faiths (by professional Mithraic scholars) are almost entirely either "universal" religious traits (i.e., both had a moral code; what religion doesn't!?) or sociological: Both spread rapidly because of the "political unity and moral anarchy of the Empire." [Cum.MM, 188-9] Both drew large numbers from the lower classes. (And of course, numerous differences are cited as well: Christianity was favored in urban areas habited by the Jewish diaspora, whereas Mithraism was indifferent to Judaism and was popular in rural areas; Mithraism appealed to slaves, troops, and functionaries vs. Christianity's broader appeal; etc.)

You may ask whether the copycatters know of any of this newer work on Mithraism by Mithraic scholars, and if so what they make of it. The answer is yes, they are becoming aware of it; but what they make of it is no more than a conspiracy. In her latest effort Acharaya says of the star-map thesis, and the lack of evidence that Mithra in his Iranian period ever slew a bull:

The argument is in the main unconvincing and seems to be motivated by Christian backlash attempting to debunk the well-founded contention that Christianity copied Mithraism in many germane details.
At the point when scholars like Ulansey are implicitly accused, as here, of being "motivated by Christian backlash" (or as elsewhere, of being covert Christians!), the copycatters are clearly holding a counsel of despair. One would think from this confident statement that Acharya has gone to Iran and found dozens of pictures of Mithra slaying a bull, dated 500 BC, and footprints in the dust matching those of the Apostles nearby. Of course she had found no such thing. Instead we are told, "In reality, the bull-slaying motif and ritual existed in numerous cultures prior to the Christian era, regardless of whether or not it is depicted in literature or iconography in Persia." No one doubts that the bull-slaying motif existed; the question is whether it appears as something that Mithra did in the pre-Roman era, and the other instances are completely meaningless in this context. Ulansey shows that Mithra's act was related to the discovery of the precession of the equinoxes; Acharya offers the response that:

In fact, the bull motif is a reflection of the Age of Taurus, around 4500-2300 BCE, one of the 2,150-year ages created by the precession of the equinoxes. The presumption by scholars is that the precession of the equinoxes was only "discovered" during the second century BCE by the Greek scientist Hipparchus; nevertheless, it is quite evident that the precession was well known, by the ruling elite and priestly faction, for millennia prior to its purported "discovery." That the ancients followed precessional ages is revealed abundantly in the archaeological record.
In stating this, first of all, Acharya places herself against not only Ulansey, but as Ulansey states, historians of science who agree that Hipparchus was the discoverer of the precession [Ulan.OMM, 76] -- as well as against evidence from Aristotle and others showing that such knowledge was not known prior to Hipparchus [ibid., 79]. She posits otherwise unknown and unnamed "ruling elite" and "priests" who allegedly knew about the precession; yet when it comes to details, all she has to offer is one example: "The change between the ages of Taurus and Aries is recorded even in the Bible, at Exodus 12, where Moses institutes the sacrifice of the lamb or ram instead of the bull." The problem here at face value is that even if true, this would be in the wrong order: If Exodus is symbolizing the precession, it should be ordering the sacrifice of the bull instead of the ram, not vice versa. Not that it matters, since Exodus 12, the implementation of Passover, says nothing about bulls, as "instead ofs" or for any other reason, and a lamb is still not a ram by any stretch of the imagination. Achraya is blowing bubbles here. That "Dupuis insisted upon the identification, as did Volney," is a nice personal insight into their lives, but means nothing. Bunsen's wild speculations also are without grounding; to wit: "Like Ormuzd, Mithras is represented riding on the bull, and Jehovah is described as riding on the Cherub, Kirub or bull." Mithras is nowhere shown riding a bull; he is on the bull's back, killing it; on the other end, where is it, and when, that Jehovah is said to be riding a cherub, and how, linguistically, does this get to "bull"? Solar myths in which other gods of no relation to Mithra (Apis, etc.) are depicted as or called bulls, and sacrifices of bulls in various places, are of no relevance to the issue; merely asserting that they are "essentially the same motif as Mithra slaying the bull" and quoting another of like mind does not make it so -- especially since there is no iconographic or literary evidence to prove this point. It appears that the real "bull" here is this lame (no word would do better) attempt to throw together assertions without basis and yell "Shazam!" to keep people from noticing that nothing has actually been proved.

The bottom line: Don't take what the likes of Acharya, Freke, Gandy, Wynne-Tyson, etc. say about Mithraism at face value. If so few Mithraic scholars have mastered all the needed tools, and they don't agree on these points with the copycatters, why should the copycatters be given any credence at all?



Priming the Pump with Parallels?
We are now ready to embark upon the practical part of our essay in which we consider in turn each of the claims made by Acharya S of alleged "parallels" between Mithraism and Christianity.

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.
This claim, which I have seen repeated in part by the Secular Web's James Still, is a mix of truth and obfuscations. Let's begin with the December 25th part by noting Glenn Miller's reply, which is more than sufficient: "...the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all." This is something the later church did, wherever they got the idea from -- not the apostolic church, and if there was any borrowing at all, everyone did it, for Dec. 25th was "universally distinguished by sacred festivities" [Cum.MM, 196] being that it was (at the time) the winter solstice.

Next, the cave part. First of all, Mithra was not born of a virgin in a cave; he was born out of solid rock, which presumably left a cave behind -- and I suppose technically the rock he was born out of could have been classified as a virgin! Here is how one Mithraic scholar describes the scene on Mithraic depictions: Mithra "wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix." [MS.173] Mithra was born a grown-up, but you won't hear the copycatters mention this! (The rock-birth scene itself was a likely carryover from Perseus, who experienced a similar birth in an underground cavern; Ulan.OMM, 36.)

That leaves the shepherds, and this is one that is entirely true; although the shepherds did more than "attend" (unlike Luke's shepherds, they were witnesses to the birth; there was no angelic mediator), they also helped Mithra out of the rock, and offered him the first-fruits of their flock -- quite a feat for these guys in any event, considering that Mithra's birth took place at a time when (oops!) men had supposedly not been created on earth yet. [Cum.MM, 132] But the clincher here is that this scene, like nearly all Roman Mithraic evidence, dates at least a century after the time of the New Testament. It is too late to say that any "borrowing" was done by the Christian church -- if there was any, it was the other way around; but there probably was not. (It is fair to note also that the Iranian Mithra didn't have a "born out of rock" story...his conception was attributed, variously, to an incestuous relationship between Ahura-Mazda and his mother, or to the plain doings of an ordinary mortal woman...but there is no virgin conception/birth story to speak of. [Cum.MM, 16] Acharya says that the Indian Mitra, "was born of a female, Aditi, the 'mother of the gods,' the inviolable or virgin dawn; this is simply yet another case of her applying terminology [a "dawn" as "virgin" -- so when does the dawn start "having sex" and how?] illicitly. So likewise this word game: "It could be suggested that Mithra was born of 'Prima Materia,' or 'Primordial Matter,' which could also be considered 'First Mother,' 'Virgin Matter,' 'Virgin Mother,' etc..." -- it can be "considered" no such thing except by vivid imagination; merely playing on the psycho-linguistic similarity of sound in the English words "matter" and "mother" and trying to equare "first" with "virgin" isn't going to do the job. Research Assistant Punkish adds: ADITI (according to an astrological website) means Free unbound. Boundless heaven as compared with the finite earth. A Vedic goddess representing the primeval generator of all that emanated. The eternal space of boundless whole, the unfathomable depth signifying the veil over the unknown. (Note, not matter/mother but generator of matter!) The Rig Veda describes it as the father and mother of all gods; it is named Devamatri, mother of all gods, or Swabhavat, that which exists by itself. She is frequently implored for blessing children and cattle, for protection and forgiveness. In the Yajur Veda, Aditi is addressed as the support of the sky, the sustainer of the earth, the sovereign of this world, and the wife of Vishnu. The Vishnu Purana describes Aditi, the daughter of Daksha and the wife of Kashyapa, to be the mother of 8 Adityas (q.v.) (wife of Vishnu or Kashyapa? bit unlikely to be virginal then!!!) Then we have this website Dialogueonline.net - Magazine (comparative research on major religions) where we find: "According to the Rigveda (10/72/2) Brahmanaspati, like a craftsman, created the gods, and the gods in turn created 'Sat' from 'Asat'. The Rigveda (10/72/4-5) further says, "Daksha was born of Aditi and Aditi was born of Daksha, the gods were born of Aditi and Aditi gave birth to eight sons". This mantra suggests mainly two things - first, Aditi and Daksha took birth of each other, which proposition is never possible; second, the Creator of this universe was Aditi because she gave birth to the gods. But it ridicules more brazenly when refuting such points Rigveda (8/90/15) says: "Aditi was daughter of Adityas". In this connection, Rigveda produces more than one controversy as Rigveda tots up that Aditi was mother of Vishnu and so Rigveda (4/55/3 8/27/5) clarifies, "Aditi mothered Vishnu". But repudiating the same verse Vajasaney Samhita (20/60) and Taitirya Samhita (7/5/14) consolidates that Aditi was wife of Vishnu. The goddess, who herself is found in various controversies is considered creator of this universe. Thus, these mantras fail to shed any meaningful light on the basic issue of the birth, motherhood and even creation of the universe by Aditi.", Creator And Creation In Hindu Perspective)

Acharya now adds in her work iconographic evidence allegedly showing "the babe Mithra seated in the lap of his virgin mother, with the gift-bearing Magi genuflecting in front of them." One is constrained to ask how an icon reflects that Mithra's mother was a virgin, since it is obviously not stated. One also wants to know if any of this evidence is pre-Christian (it is not). Quoting others who merely say it is indicating a virgin birth, yet offer no more evidence, is not an argument. Finally, we are told of the "largest near-eastern Mithraeum [which] was built in western Persia at Kangavar, dedicated to 'Anahita, the Immaculate Virgin Mother of the Lord Mithras'." This is a very curious claim which is repeated around the Internet, but no source is given for it, and Acharya attributes it to a "writer" with no name or source. I believe, however, that I have found the terminal source, and it is a paper written in 1993 by a then-high school student, David Fingrut, who made this claim without any documentation whatsoever himself. His paper is now posted on the Net as a text file. That said, it is inaccurate to start with, since the building at Kanagvar is not a Mithraeum at all, but a temple to Anahita (dated 200 BC), and although I have found one source of untested value that affirms that Anahita was depicted as a virgin (in spite of being a fertility goddess!), she is regarded not at Mithra's mother, but as his consort (though it does offer other contradictory info) -- and it knows nothing of such an inscription as described; and the mere existence of the goddess Anahita before the Roman era proves nothing. Acharya appears to be throwing ringers again.

He was considered a great traveling teacher and master.
Aside from the fact that this is what we would expect from any major leadership figure, especially in a religious context ("He was a great god -- he taught us nothing!"), I have to say that this looks to be the first of several outright "ringers" in the set. I have found nowhere any indication that Mithra was a teacher, traveling or otherwise. (He probably could be called a "master," but what leading figure would not be? And a master in what sense? This is rather a vague parallel to draw!) At any rate, since there is no evidence for this one in any of the Mithraic literature, we issue our first challenge to the pagan-copycat theorists, especially Acharya S: How is it shown that Mithra was a "great traveling teacher"? What did he teach, and where, and to whom? How was he a "master" and why is this a similarity to Jesus?

He had 12 companions or disciples.
I have seen this claim repeated a number of times, almost always (see below) without any documentation. (One of our readers wrote to Acharya asking for specific evidence of this one...she did not reply, although she had readily replied to a prior message.) The Iranian Mithras, as we have seen, did have a single companion (Varuna), and the Roman Mithra had two helper/companions, tiny torch-bearing likenesses of himself, called Cautes and Cautopatres, that were perhaps meant to represent the sunrise and sunset (whereas "Big Daddy" Mithra was supposed to be noon), spring and autumn, the stars Albedaran and Antares [Beck.PO, 26] or life and death. (Freke and Gandy absurdly attempt to link these twins to the two thieves crucified with Jesus! - Frek.JM, 51 - because one went to heaven with Jesus [torch up] and one went to hell [torch down]! Why not link instead to Laurel and Hardy, because one was repentant [torch down] and the other was a bully [torch up]!) Mithra also had a number of animal companions: a snake, a dog, a lion, a scorpion -- but not 12 of them.

Now here's an irony. My one idea as to where they got this one was a picture of the bull-slaying scene carved in stone, found in Ulansey's book, that depicts the scene framed by 2 vertical rows with 6 pictures of what seem to be human figures or faces on each side. It occurred to me that some non-Mithraist perhaps saw this picture and said, "Ah ha, those 12 people must be companions or disciples! Just like Jesus!" Days later I received Freke and Gandy's book, and sure enough -- that's how they make the connection. Indeed, they go as far as saying that during the Mirthaic initiation ceremony, Mithraic disciples dressed up as the signs of the zodiac and formed a circle around the initiate. [Frek.JM, 42] Where they (or rather, their source) get this information about the methods of Mithraic initiation, one can only guess: No Mithraic scholar seems aware of it, and their source, Godwin, is a specialist in "Western esoteric teaching" -- not a Mithraist, and it shows, because although writing in 1981, well after the first Mithraic congress, Godwin was still following Cumont's line that Iranian and Roman Mithraism were the same, and thus ended up offering interpretations of the bull-slaying scene that bear no resemblance to what Mithraic scholars today see in it at all. (To be fair, though, Freke and Gandy do not give the page number where Godwin supposedly says this -- and his material on Mithraism says nothing about any initiation ceremony.) However, aside from the fact that this carving is (yet again!) significantly post-Christian (so that any borrowing would have had to be the other way), these figures have been identified by modern Mithraic scholars as representing zodiacal symbols. Indeed, the top two faces are supposed to be the sun and the moon!

Acharya in her latest now acknowledges that Mithra's dozen are the zodiac, but goes on the defense by saying, "the motif of the 12 disciples or followers in a 'last supper' is recurrent in the Pagan world, including within Mithraism" -- with the Mithraic supper compared to the Last Supper (see below). She also adds: "The Spartan King Kleomenes had held a similar last supper with twelve followers four hundreds years before Jesus. This last assertion is made by Plutarch in Parallel Lives, 'Agis and Kleomenes' 37:2-3." This is only partly true -- I was alerted to this passage by a helpful reader: "For [Cleomenes] sacrificed, and gave them large portions, and, with a garland upon his head, feasted and made merry with his friends. It is said that he began the action sooner than he designed, having understood that a servant who was privy to the plot had gone out to visit a mistress that he loved. This made him afraid of a discovery; and therefore, as soon as it was full noon, and all the keepers sleeping off their wine, he put on his coat, and opening his seam to bare his right shoulder, with his drawn sword in his hand, he issued forth, together with his friends provided in the same manner, making thirteen in all." It's a "last supper," but it isn't invested with any significance in itself (least of all, atoning significance! -- and these guys clearly had to have a "last meal" at some point!), and the twelve companions don't have any real role beyond this pericope. We'd put this own down as natural coincidence (as there are people with five, 10, or other numbers of companions as well.)

Mithra's followers were promised immortality.
On this one, Acharya is making no more than a guess, although probably a good one: As one Mithraic scholar put it, Mithraism "surely offered its initiates deliverance from some awful fate to which all other men were doomed, and a privileged passage to some ultimate state of well-being." [MS.470] Why is this a good guess? Not because Mithraism borrowed from Christianity, or Christianity borrowed from Mithraism, or anyone borrowed from anyone, but because if you don't promise your adherents something that secures their eternity, you may as well give up running a religion and go and sell timeshares in Alaska! In practical terms, however, the only hard evidence of a "salvational" ideology is a piece of graffiti found in the Santa Prisca Mithraeum (a Mithraist "church" building, if you will), dated no earlier than 200 AD, that reads, "And us, too, you saved by spilling the eternal blood." [Spie.MO, 45; Gor.IV, 114n; Verm.MSG, 172] Note that this refers to Mithra spilling the blood of the bull -- not his own -- and that (according to the modern Mithraic "astrological" interpretation) this does not mean "salvation" in a Christian sense (involving freedom from sin) but an ascent through levels of initiation into immortality.

He performed miracles.
Mithra did perform a number of actions rather typical for any deity worldwide, true or false, and in both his Iranian and Roman incarnations. But this is another one of those things where we just say, "What's the big deal?" We agree with Miller:

It must be remembered that SOME general similarities MUST apply to any religious leader. They must generally be good leaders, do noteworthy feats of goodness and/or supernatural power, establish teachings and traditions, create community rituals, and overcome some forms of evil. These are common elements of the religious life--NOT objects that require some theory of dependence...The common aspect of homo religiosus is an adequate and more plausible explanation than dependence.
Of course, our pagan-copycat theorists are welcome to try and draw more exact parallels, but as yet I have seen no cited example where Mithra turned water into wine or calmed a storm.

As the "great bull of the Sun," Mithra sacrificed himself for world peace.
This description is rather spun out into a sound-alike of Christian belief, but behind the vagueness lies a different story. Mithra did not "sacrifice himself" in the sense that he died; he was not the "great bull of the Sun", but rather, he killed the bull (attempts to somehow identify Mithra with the very bull he slayed, although popular with outdated non-Mithraists like Loisy and Bunsen, were rejected by Vermaseren, who said that "neither the temples nor the inscriptions give any definite evidence to support this view and only future finds can confirm it" [Verm.MSG, 103]; it was not for the sake of "world peace" (except, perhaps, in the sense that Cumont interpreted the bull-slaying as a creation myth [Cum.MM, 193], in which he was entirely wrong). Mithra could only be said to have "sacrificed himself" in the sense that he went out and took a risk to do a heroic deed; the rest finds no justification at all in modern Mithraic studies literature -- much less does it entail a parallel to Christ, who sacrificed himself for atonement from personal sin (not "world peace").

Punkish has added this: ...[T]he footnote [in Christ Conspiracy] reads O'Hara, which in the bibliography is Gwydion O'Hara, Sun Lore. Now if you look this guy up on Amazon.com you find his book reviews are not very positive, in fact he's the sort of person, like Barbara Walker, who makes things up. What kind of authority is he? He isn't: he's a writer on pagan practices and he was once a high priest of the Wiccan Church of Canada at a time when it was an ideal rather than a reality (!)...sounds like another nut. What's Acharya doing using this guy instead of a Mithraic scholar?

He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again.
His resurrection was celebrated every year.
I have to classify these two as "ringers" -- I see no references anywhere in the Mithraic studies literature to Mithra being buried, or even dying, for that matter [Gordon says directly, that there is "no death of Mithras" -- Gor.IV, 96] and so of course no rising again and no "resurrection" (in a Jewish sense?!) to celebrate. Freke and Gandy [Frek.JM, 56] claim that the Mithraic initiates "enacted a similar resurrection scene", but their only reference is to a comment by Tertullian, significantly after New Testament times! Tekton Research Assistant Punkish adds: The footnote is for Tertullian's Prescription Against Heretics, chapter 40 which says, "if my memory still serves me, Mithra there, (in the kingdom of Satan, ) sets his marks on the foreheads of his soldiers; celebrates also the oblation of bread, and introduces an image of a resurrection, and before a sword wreathes a crown" ...so their argument relies on Tertullian's memory, and it isn't the initiates but Mithra who does the celebrating and introduces an *image* of a resurrection?! How is that at all related to initiates acting out a scene? Wynne-Tyson [Wyn.MFC, 24; cf. Ver.MSG, 38] also refers to a church writer of the fourth century, Firmicus, who says that the Mithraists mourn the image of a dead Mithras -- still way too late, guys! -- but after reading the work of Firmicus, I find no such reference at all!) Acharya adds the assertion of Dupuis that Mithras was killed by crucifixion, but from the description, either Dupuis or Acharya are mixing up Mithra with Attis!

He was called "the Good Shepherd" and identified with both the Lamb and the Lion.
Only the third aspect has any truth to it as far as I can find from Mithraic studies sources: The lion was regarded in Roman Mithraism as Mithra's "totem" animal, just as Athena's animal was the owl and Artemis' animal was the deer [Biv.PM, 32]. Since Mithra was a sun-god, there was also an association with Leo, which was the House of the Sun in Babylonian astrology. But aside from this evidence all being post-Christian, one may ask what the big deal is. Do we expect the Christians or the Mithraists to say, "Darn, we can't use the lion, it's already taken by the other guys?" Should Exxon give up their tiger because of Frosted Flakes? But if you really want to get technical, Jesus owned the rights to the lion symbol as a member of the tribe of Judah long before Mithras even appeared in his Iranian incarnation (Gen. 49:9).

There are other associations as well: In the Roman material, one of Mithra's companions in the bull-slaying scene is a lion; the lion is sometimes Mithra's hunting and feasting companion; Mithra is sometimes associated with a lion-headed being who is sometimes identified as the evil Zoroastrian god Ahriman [MS.277]; one of the seven stages of initiation in Mithraism is the lion stage. But Mithra is only called a lion in one Mithraic tale (which is part of Armenian folklore -- where did the writers of the NT pick that up?) because as a child he killed a lion and split it in two. [MS.356, 442]

He was considered the "Way, the Truth and the Light," and the "Logos," "Redeemer," "Savior" and "Messiah." Acharya now adds in her latest work the titles creator of the world, God of gods, the mediator, mighty ruler, king of gods, lord of heaven and earth, Sun of Righteousness.
We have several titles here, and yea, though I searched through the works of Mithraic scholars, I found none of these applied to Mithra, other than the role of mediator (not, though, in the sense of a mediator between God and man because of sin, but as a mediator between Zoroaster's good and evil gods; we have seen the "sun" identification, but never that title) -- not even the new ones were ever listed by the Mithraic scholars. There is a reference to a "Logos" that was taught to the Mithraic initiates [MS.206](in the Roman evidence, which is again, significantly after the establishment of Christianity), but let it be remembered that "logos" means "word" and goes back earlier in Judaism to Philo -- Christians borrowed the idea from Philo, perhaps, or from the general background of the word, but not from Mithraism.

His sacred day was Sunday, the "Lord's Day," hundreds of years before the appearance of Christ.

Mithra had his principal festival of what was later to become Easter.
We'll consider these two together. The Iranian Mithra had a few special celebrations: a festival on October 8; another on September 12-16, and a "cattle-pairing" festival on October 12-16 [MS.59]. But as for an Easter festival, I have seen only that there was a festival at the spring equinox -- and it was one of just four, one for each season.

In terms of Sunday being a sacred day, this is correct [Cum.MM, 190-1], but it only appears in Roman Mithraism, and Acharya here is apparently assuming, like Cumont, that what held true for Roman Mithraism also held true for the Iranian version -- but there is no evidence for this. If any borrowing occurred (it probably didn't), it was the other way around.

His religion had a eucharist or "Lord's Supper," at which Mithra said, "He who shall not eat of my body nor drink of my blood so that he may be one with me and I with him, shall not be saved."
This saying is appealed to also by Freke and Gandy [Frek.JM, 49], and it took me some digging to discover it's actual origin. Godwin says that the reference is from a "Persian Mithraic text," but does not give the dating of this text, nor say where it was found, nor offer any documentation; that I found finally in Vermaseren [Verm.MSG, 103] -- the source of this saying is a medieval text; and the speaker is not Mithras, but Zarathustra! Although Vermaseren suggested that this might be the formula that Justin referred to (but did not describe at all) as being part of the Mithraic "Eucharist," there is no evidence for the saying prior to this medieval text. (Freke and Gandy, and now Acharya, try to give the rite some ancestry by claiming that it derives from an Iranian Mithraic ceremony using a psychadelic plant called Haoma, but they are clearly grasping at straws and adding speculations of meaning in order to make this rite seem similar to the Eucharist.) This piece of "evidence" is far, far too late to be useful -- except as possible proof that Mithraism borrowed from Christianity! (Christianity of course was in Persia far earlier than this medieval text; see Martin Palmer's Jesus Sutras for details.)

The closest thing that Mithraism had to a "Last Supper" was the taking of staples (bread, water, wine and meat) by the Mithraic initiates, which was perhaps a celebration of the meal that Mithra had with the sun deity after slaying the bull. However, the meal of the initiates is usually seen as no more than a general fellowship meal of the sort that was practiced by groups all over the Roman world -- from religious groups to funereal societies. [MS.348]

"His annual sacrifice is the passover of the Magi, a symbolical atonement or pledge of moral and physical regeneration."
This is rather a confused statement, for it compounds an apparent falsity (I have found no indication that Mithra's "sacrifice" was annual, rather than a once-in-the-past event); it uses terms from Judeo-Christian belief ("passover", "atonement") to describe a rite from Mithraism, without showing any similarities at all. I see this as little more than a case of illicitly applying terminology, and until more detail is provided, it can be regarded as little else.

Shmuel Golding is quoted as saying that 1 Cor. 10:4 is "identical words to those found in the Mithraic scriptures, except that the name Mithra is used instead of Christ." In her latest work Acharya attributes this comment also to Weigall.
In response to this, I need to say that if Golding has or Weigall had some Mithraic scriptures in their possession, they need to turn them over to Mithraic scholarly community at once, because they will want to know about them. Ulansey [Ulan.OMM, 3] tells us that "the teachings of the (Mithraic) cult were, as far as we know, never written down" and we "have been left with practically no literary evidence relating to the cult which would help (us) reconstruct its esoteric doctrines." So where is Golding/Weigall getting this from?

The Catholic Encyclopedia is quoted as saying that Mithraic services were conduced by "fathers" and that the "chief of the fathers, a sort of pope, who always lived at Rome, was called 'Pater Patratus.'"
Freke and Gandy add their own idea: Like Christians, Mithraic initiates called each other "brother" [Frek.JM, 67]. Both claims are true, but quite simply, so what? The use of familial terms within religious societies is a universal, and that's no surprise, because familial terms are the most useful for expressing endearment or commitment. Indeed, "kinship terminology" was used in Greco-Roman antiquity for fellows of the same religion or race, as well as of friends, allies, and even prospective guests [Keener commentary on Matthew, 370n]. (I have seen no evidence that the Pater Patratus "always lived" at Rome, but even if he did, this would be of no moment: As the leading city of the Empire, where else would this person most likely have headquarters? This means no more than mainline churches all having headquarters in New York, or all foreign countries having embassies in Washington. Beyond that, we hardly need to defend "borrowing" when what is at stake is a church organizational structure that came into being many years after apostolic times.)

Here are some additional notes from Punkish about the points in Jesus Mysteries:
Having accomplished his mission on Earth, Mithras was said to have ascended to heaven in a sun-chariot - and the footnote refers you to Cumont, p138. Cumont is actually referring to Mithra watching over the first couple (a sort of Adam and Eve) and providing divine protection to humanity during a Noahlike flood! Not related to Jesus' mission, though omission of these details implies such, especially during a resurrection discussion.

As for Mithras ascending to heaven, this is a misreading of the text. It is not Mithra, but the gods (e.g. Helios) with him who after looking after the humans, ascend, then Mithras crosses the Ocean in his chariot. The Ocean tries to engulf him and fails, and finally he joins the immortals' habitation. The term "ascension" is not uniquely applied to Mithras by Cumont.

JM's claims to Christian eschatology parallels: they list, Mithras as right hand authority, God of Light, ruler of the world, waiting for End of Time, return to earth, awake dead & pass judgment. Footnote 258 p271 says "Cumont collates a mass of Mithraic eschatological doctrines identical to Christianity." This is a terrible misreading of Cumont pp145-146...I can't find anything about "ruler of the world", protector of humanity yes, ruler no. While Mithras is said to redescend together with a bull and separates the good from the bad (as "god of truth", not God of Light - the nearest we get is his title as the celestial father who receives the faithful in a resplendent mansion!), he sacrifices the bull before the assembled humanity which are raised from the dead yes, but the doctrine is an add-on to the immortal soul view - which sounds more like transmigration, and the resurrection is for the purpose of material enjoyment. The bull's fat and consecrated wine [not its blood] is offered to the just to gain immortality - yet it is Ormazd who executes the judgment - as annihilation of the wicked together with the destruction, not eternal punishment, of Ahriman and his demons, and a rejuvenated universe is the future happiness without evil. How is this identical to Christian eschatology as Freke and Gandy have claimed?

That ends our listing, and thus our conclusion: In not one instance has Acharya made a convincing case that Christianity borrowed anything from Mithraism. The evidence is either too late, not in line with the conclusions of modern Mithraic scholars, or just plain not there. Acharya will need a lot firmer documentation before any of her claims can be taken seriously.



Sources
Books that are in red have been bought by this ministry thanks to the contributions of readers like you, and have helped make this essay possible. If you would like to help us with our efforts in defending the faith, click here.

Beck.PO -- Beck, Roger. Planetary Gods and Planetary Orders in the Mysteries of Mithras. London: Brill, 1988.
Biv.PM -- Bivar, A. D. The Personalities of Mithra in Archaeology and Literature. New York: Bibliotheca Persica Press, 1998.
Cum.MM -- Cumont, Franz. The Mysteries of Mithra. New York: Dover, 1950.
Frek.JM -- Freke, Timothy and Peter Gandy. The Jesus Mysteries: Was the "Original Jesus" a Pagan God? New York: Harmony Books, 1999.
Gor.IV -- Gordon, Richard. Image and Value in the Greco-Roman World. Aldershot: Variorum, 1996.
Lae.MO -- Laeuchli, Samuel. Mithraism in Ostia: Mystery Religions and Christianity in the Ancient Port of Rome. Northwestern U. Press, 1967.
MS -- Mithraic Studies: Proceedings of the First International Congress of Mithraic Studies. Manchester U. Press, 1975.
Spei.MO -- Spiedel, Michael. Mithras-Orion, Greek Hero and Roman Army God. Leiden: E. J. Brill, 1980.
Ulan.OMM -- Ulansey, David. The Origins of the Mithraic Mysteries: Cosmology and Salvation in the Ancient World. New York: Oxford U. Press, 1989.
Ver.MSG -- Vermaseren, M. J. Mithras the Secret God. New York: Barnes and Noble, 1963.
Wyn.MFC -- Wynne-Tyson, Esme. Mithras: The Fellow in the Cap. New York: Barnes and Noble, 1958.

[Jesus Christ]

You guys sure know how to waste a lot of bandwidth repeating lies which will get you nothing but eternity in Hell :(

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by DR CHIP
Just for you Sesh!!!
:)

In 1975, Mithraic studies scholar John Hinnells lamented "the practical difficulty of any one scholar mastering all the necessary fields" -- linguistics, anthropology, history (Indian, Iranian, and Roman!), archaeology, iconography, sociology -- in order to get a grip on Mithraic studies.

That's a bit of a problem.

Thanks for posting this Doc and I will read it but I'm really looking for a objective proper historian's account rather than the Catholic church's response. They believe that the little Polish goalkeeper Pope John Paul II did supernatural miracles for fuck sake...:)

I think I'll need to hit a bookshop, the internet is probably not the place for this kind of thing...

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
You guys sure know how to waste a lot of bandwidth repeating lies which will get you nothing but eternity in Hell :(

Stop being such a sheep FORD, how the fuck do you know one way or the other?

http://www.natural-health-information-centre.com/image-files/head-in-sand.jpg

"Lalalalalalal I'm not listening..."

[DR CHIP]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
That's a bit of a problem.

Thanks for posting this Doc and I will read it but I'm really looking for a objective proper historian's account rather than the Catholic church's response. They believe that the little Polish goalkeeper Pope John Paul II did supernatural miracles for fuck sake...:)

I think I'll need to hit a bookshop, the internet is probably not the place for this kind of thing...

Cheers!

Cool
:)

:gulp:

[thome]

Have Faith My Son, Go in Peace.

[Ally_Kat]

randoml things I read looking it up --


Christians saw Mithraism as a devilish imitation of what they believed to be the one true religion, and they frequently broke into and destroyed Mithraic temples with "official" approval.


http://mithraeum.org/history.htm (the FAQ part, too)


http://i-cias.com/e.o/mithraism.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_and_World_Religions#Relationship_with _Mithraism

http://www.carm.org/evidence/mithra.htm

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10402a.htm



I know that Christianity "borrowed" some things in terms of rituals and all that, but some I also think are similar just because most of these religions comes from the same area and there were traders galore. But then again, I have my Tower of Babel theory, so I'm not the best one to comment on one true religion and which is fake and whatnot. Unless we're talking about Tom and Scientology, cuz all about Xenu and how weird Tom is.

[Hardrock69]

Here is something that will blow your minds.

Something that is a FACT, but is not known by aa majority of average Christian Worshipper Zealots:

It concerns the name of the murderer who was released instead of Christ at his trial. His name was "Barabbas". Just another Biblical name, you may think, and one that seems to have an evil ring to it: 'Barabbas the wicked murderer whom the equally wicked Jews chose to release in preference to our Savior.'

The baying of the crowd to release him instead of Jesus is one of the New Testament's pieces of evidence regarding the allegedly despicable nature of the Jews that has resulted in 2,000 years of Anit-Semitism.

Anyway, one only needs a rudimentary knowledge of the language of the time to understand that 'Barabbas' is not a name, but a title, meaning precisely 'Son of God'!!!
'Bar' means 'son of' and 'Abba' literally means 'father', but it's usage was and generally still is a reference to The Father; that is, God.

In early manuscripts of Matthew, in verse 27:16, this man's designation was used in it's full form: 'Jesus Barabbas'.

So the individual who was released and NOT crucified at the request of the the crowd was, as an indisputable matter of Gospel record, known as 'Jesus, the son of God.

[Hardrock69]

Ok kids....the next chapter in tonight's lecture is entitled:

"GODCOCK - THE VIRGINS WHO GOT FUCKED BY GODS AND BORE CHILDREN WHO WERE SUPPOSEDLY SOME KIND OF GREAT PROPHET!"

(I actually have a song called "Godcock" that is about this very issue).

ANYWAY, here are just SOME of the ancient figures who were considered gods, who ALL predate Christ. As there is the lengthy treatise on Mithra posted above, I will not mention anything about that:

Gautama Buddha: born of the virgin Maya around 600 B.C.

Dionysus: Greek god, born of a virgin in a stable, turned water into wine

Quirrnus: An early Roman saviour, born of a virgin

Attis: born of the virgin Nama, in Phrygia around 200 B.C.

Indra: born of a virgin in Tibet around 700 B.C.

Adonis: Babylonian god - born of the virgin Ishtar

Krishna: Hindu deity - born of the virgin Devaki in around 1200 B.C.

Zoroaster: born of a virgin 1500-1200 B.C.

It is quite obvious that Jesus was not (if this fairy tale can be believed) the only man who was born of a virgin and fathered by a God.

Any Christian who claims he was the only figure in history to have been afforded that priviledge is simply ignorant, and modern-day church leaders would just as soon you all remain ignorant so that you will continue you weekely donations to the building fund at your local church.

:rolleyes:

[Hardrock69]

Ok since the 'gods' of this website will not allow us to edit posts after 20 minutes has passed, here are 2 corrections to the post concerning Barabbas. The corrections are in bold and italics:


1. Something that is a FACT, but is not known by a majority of average Christian Worshipper Zealots:

2.......regarding the allegedly despicable nature of the Jews that has resulted in 2,000 years of [b]Anti[\b]-Semitism.

We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming.
:cool:

[Hardrock69]

Chapter 3. The Donation of Constantine: The Greatest Forgery In The History Of The Roman Catholic Church:

This was an eighth-century discovery which purported to be the Emperor Constantine's 4th-century instruction that the Church Of Rome should have absolute authority in secular affairs because St. Peter, the successor to Jesus as leader of the Early Church, had passed such authority to the Bishop Of Rome.

Despite the fact that this has been known to be a forgery since the Renaissance period, the Roman Catholic Church still clings to the rights that this bogus document conferred upon it.

This is merely a footnote, listing one of the minor ways in which the Roman Catholic Church perpetrated lies in order to retain power.

One of the major lies, obviously being the fairy tale about Jesus.

The Church had such power over people, that to question the Church could result in death. Regardless of what the Church claimed, people had to take it as "truth." St. Ignatius Loyola of the 16th century even wrote: "We should always be disposed to believe that which appears to us to be white is really black, if the hierarchy of the church so decides."


Kinda seems VERY similar to modern day circumstances...where if you try to publicize ANY wrongdoing by our current President, you might disappear and never be heard from again. Hell, there were 40-50 people close to the Clinton administration who died under mysterious and/or unexplainable circumstances.

But I digress....

:cool:

[Hardrock69]

One more thing, and this is just an expansion of a comment I made above:

There does not exist any eyewitness accounts written by anone who ever actually saw Jesus or ever knew him personally.

The following concerns other NON-CHRISTIAN SOURCES of information about "Jesus".

Virtually all other claims of Jesus come from sources outside of Christian writings. Devastating to the claims of Christians, however, comes from the fact that all of these accounts come from authors who lived after the alleged life of Jesus. Since they did not live during the time of the hypothetical Jesus, none of their accounts serve as eyewitness evidence.

Josephus Flavius, the Jewish historian, lived as the earliest non-Christian who mentions a Jesus. Although many scholars think that Josephus' short accounts of Jesus (in Antiquities) came from interpolations perpetrated by a later Church father (most likely, Eusebius), Josephus was born in 37 C.E., after the alleged crucifixion of Jesus, and wrote Antiquities in 93 C.E. after the first gospels got written. Therefore, even if his accounts about Jesus came from his hand, his information could only serve as hearsay.

Pliny the Younger, a Roman official, was born in 62 C.E. His letter about the Christians only shows that he got his information from Christian believers themselves. Regardless, his birth date puts him out of the range of eyewitness accounts.

Tacitus, the Roman historian's birth year at 64 C.E., puts him well after the alleged life of Jesus. He gives a brief mention of a "Christus" in his Annals (Book XV, Sec. 44), which got written around 109 C.E. He gives no source for his material. Although there occur many disputes as to the authenticity of Tacitus' mention of Jesus, the very fact that his birth happend after the alleged Jesus and wrote the Annals during the formation of Christianity, it can only provide us with hearsay accounts.

Suetonius, a Roman historian, born in 69 C.E. who mentions a "Chrestus," a common name. Apologists assume that "Chrestus" means "Christ." But even if Seutonius had meant "Christ," it still says nothing about an earthly Jesus. Just like all the others, Suetonius birth occurred after the purported Jesus. Again, only hearsay.

Talmud: Amazingly some Christians use brief portions of the Talmud, (a collection of Jewish civil a religious law, including commentaries on the Torah), as evidence for Jesus. They claim that Yeshu (a common name in Jewish literature) in the Talmud refers to Jesus. However, this Jesus, according to Gerald Massey actually depicts a disciple of Jehoshua Ben-Perachia at least a century before the alleged Christian Jesus. [Massey] Regardless of how one interprets this, the Palestinian Talmud got written between the 3rd and 5th century C.E., and the Babylonian Talmud between the 3rd and 6th century C.E., at least two centuries after the alleged crucifixion! At best it can only serve as controversial Christian and pagan legend; it cannot possibly serve as evidence for a historical Jesus.

The above sources get quoted the most as "evidence" for Jesus by Christians. All other sources (Christian and non-Christian), some of which include: Mara Bar-Serapion (circa 73 C.E.), Ignatius (50 - 98? C.E.), Polycarp (69 - 155 C.E.), Clement of Rome (? - circa 160 C.E.), Justin Martyr (100 - 165 C.E.), Lucian (circa 125 - 180 C.E.), Tertullian (160 - ? C.E.), Clement of Alexandria (? - 215 C.E.), Origen (185 - 232 C.E.), Hippolytus (? - 236 C.E.), and Cyprian (? - 254 C.E.). All these people got born well after the alleged death of Jesus. Not one of them provides an eyewitness account, all of them simply spout hearsay.

As you can see, apologist Christians embarrass themselves when they unwittingly or deceptively violate the rules of historiography by using after-the-event writings as evidence for the event itself. Not one of these writers gives a source or backs up his claims with evidential material about Jesus. Although we can provide numerous reasons why the Christian and non-Christian sources prove spurious, and argue endlessly about them, we can cut to the chase by simply looking at the dates of the documents and the birth dates of the authors. It doesn't matter what these people wrote about Jesus, an author who writes after the alleged happening and gives no detectable sources for his material can only give example of hearsay. All of the post writings about Jesus could easily have come from the beliefs and stories from Christian believers themselves.

[Longdongsilver]

alley, could you please do a better job of covering that ugly mug. True, you do have big chubby hands especially for a woman, but you need to use 2 hands. That ugly ass hair needs to be covered as well. Thanks for your anticipated cooperation. T.

[Longdongsilver]

And there's absolutely no excuse whatsoever for being so overweight at your age either. Mix in a salad.

[JoeTHUNDER'SMAN]

Originally posted by Longdongsilver
alley, could you please do a better job of covering that ugly mug. True, you do have big chubby hands especially for a woman, but you need to use 2 hands. That ugly ass hair needs to be covered as well. Thanks for your anticipated cooperation. T.

So JOEY, what's your excuse for being a bloated gayman? You know I have to hand it to your for defying stereotypes of the skinny, pretty-boy gay dude. Your just a bloated fuckwit that bends over at the drop of a hat.

I bet you are fantasizing about those hands being shoved far up your ass, huh cock gobbler...C'mon Joey, show me your sphincter fatman, just like old times. You know I'm a bi-chubby chaser...:blow:

[JoeTHUNDER'SMAN]

Originally posted by Longdongsilver
And there's absolutely no excuse whatsoever for being so overweight at your age either. Mix in a salad.

Oh Joey, I hope the kiddies stay away form you you bitch! I'll give you another beating cock-slurper if I see you so much as look at a playground!:mad:

So Joey, what's with all the hate towards women these days? I know you're gay as Rock Hudson in a ballet dancer, men's dressing room, but such hostility! You must really dislike girls, huh Joey? Time for your cock-feeding bitch, those stretch marks around your mouth need a bit of skin toning cream though.

[Nickdfresh]

Joe, do you always have to bring your gay boyfriend along? Or is this some sick alias? You are a fag JOE, the rumors are true!

[ALinChainz]

Originally posted by Longdongsilver
And there's absolutely no excuse whatsoever for being so overweight at your age either. Mix in a salad.

1. You absolutely have no fucking clue as to what you are talking about. None whatsoever.

2. Look who's talking Joe ... you fat greasy fucker. What a miserable human being you are Joey ... hiding behind that screen, being an uneducated, unemployed, drunken fat faggot loser.

Get into a religious thread to insult a lady ... and be so far fucking wrong to boot.

Pray I don't ever find you fucker.

[Nickdfresh]

Not that there's anything wrong with that...

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by Longdongsilver
alley, could you please do a better job of covering that ugly mug. True, you do have big chubby hands especially for a woman, but you need to use 2 hands. That ugly ass hair needs to be covered as well. Thanks for your anticipated cooperation. T.


Originally posted by Longdongsilver
And there's absolutely no excuse whatsoever for being so overweight at your age either. Mix in a salad.

Heya Joe! How are you? I see you are still obsessed with my picture. I got some more if you want. I know how you love them so.

Funny about the comment regarding my hair. A lot of celebrities and people with enough money to waste spend thousands a year trying to get my body, color, and curl. Me? I was just born with it. Got it cut back in May, though. It was so long it went to my ass! I've actually had offers because people wanted to make extenstions and wigs out of my hair! I'm thinking about growing it out long again and when I get it cut, donate the mane to make wigs for kids with cancer. I heard about it somewhere and I think that's a pretty cool idea, especially with how everybody everywhere -- except for you -- loves my hair.

Tis true that my fingers are a lil chubby looking on my hands. I got my father and aunt's hands. Hell, the three of us are so much alike it's not funny. But i don't let my lil stubby fingers stop me. I do a lot of finger exercises to keep them in shape (lol!) for random piano playing.

And overweight? Oh, you must be playing around with me after my post in that other thread (http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=637355#post637355), you lil rascal you! Like I said, produce some photographic evidence, or are you going to be like the last board member who got angry at me and called me fat? Besides, I love salads. Gotta have mushrooms and chicken bits in it though. And croutons!

What's the matter, Joe? Another blonde-haired, blue-eyed kid who resembles me turn you down again?

[Hardrock69]

JOE THUDNER CRAVES THE COCK!!!!

Fucking faggot motherfucker....

:rolleyes:

[Hardrock69]

You tell him, Ally!
:cool:

[Golden AWe]

Hey, had to bump this up.

I've been reading this thread and I'd like to know if there's sources in the internet and books that you would recommend, ones that you've used in your studies, Hardrock69.

GRATE READ, THIS THREAD, IS!

[Hardrock69]

Tons of books.

Lots of info on the net.

Off the top of my head there is a cool book called "The Hiram Key". It actually has to do with the origins of Freemasonry.

However, the origins of Freemasonry date back to Ancient Egypt, and there is a lot of info in the book about the 1st Century Church Of Jerusaleum.

Just do your research on the net, and there is a ton of stuff available.

[Golden AWe]

Thanks. I've gone through some of them and yeah, very interesting stuff. I run into same few BIG facts every time,

1. the lack of archeological evidence of Jesus from that time,

2. the similarities between older religions and beliefs,

3. and the rise of christians WHEN Constantinus was rising to the power.

People try to argue that Jesus existed, and the Dionysos, Zeus and Osiris f.e. were myths. What? Even IF Jesus existed, (no real evidence for that), he was made a legend AFTERWARDS, and it was still copying from older BELIEFS that exist in writing, pictures in the walls of temples and pyramids etc. Copying.

They also say christian belief spread widely to big areas before Constantinus/romans started going to monoteism, BUT, there were so many other religions that had spreaded widely at the same time/before them. And was it christianity or some similar religion with some similarities, and later on they have copied those myths to themselves too?

Besides, it's easy to say a religion is popular if you are forced to believe, or, if your churches (meaning temples) are burned and evidence destroyed...aahahha....

This is a very interesting subject.

I don't find most the teachings of bible bad, in any way, to the common people in general, but the fact so big part of it is based on a guy and history that has caused so much controversy. It's plain dumb.

[Terry]

The BIG problem for me is that I just plain don't believe any of it.

Think Zappa hit the nail on the head when he said believing in the Man Who Lives In The Clouds is the chimpanzee part of the brain at work...

[Little Texan]

You don't dare tell my parents or anyone in my family any of this stuff! It just plain pisses them off if I say anything about Christianity being a bunch of bullshit, so I just play along and say praise God, praise Jesus, etc. I haven't been to church in 12 years, and don't plan on going again anytime soon, although my mom has been lobbying me pretty hard lately to go to her church. I've always hated church, even when I was small...my parents forced me to go...had to get ready for church every Sunday morning, made me dread Sundays. That's why I don't go, now, as an adult. I have a choice, and I choose not to go because I have better stuff to do with my time than sing a bunch of stupid songs and listen to a guy talk for an hour hour and a half about a bunch of fairy tale bullshit that never happened! Weekends are about the only time I ever have to do anything, as I'm usually working during the week, so why would I choose to waste 2 or 3 hours of my time on Sundays when I could be doing something much more worthwhile with my time. That's the way I look at it.

[Little Texan]

On a related note, I was watching something on the Discovery channel here a while back about the story of Noah, and they said a story very similar to that existed way before the events of Noah's flood alledgedly took place, called the Epic of Gilgamesh. I've always had a problem with that story in the bible in particular. I mean, how do you get two of every single creature on Earth onto a boat built by an old man and his sons, and feed every one of them everyday for 40 days and 40 nights, and survive? We're not talking about just cute and cuddly animals, either, but dangerous animals such as lions, tigers, bears, snakes, etc.! It all just reeks of bullshit, and reads exactly like a fairy tale to me.

[Hardrock69]

GA I have to agree.

I do not like it when those in power LIE to people in order to retain and/or increase their power.

On the other hand, I do believe that people should have an ethical/moral code to live by.

I can understand how easy it might be to teach a kid that hitting his neighbor is wrong because a) it may lead to more violence b) it may lead to the hospital c) it may lead straight to jail d) it might lead to death.

NOT because some old bearded goober in the sky might get mad and throw lightning at me from his giant gold-plated lazy-boy recliner.

I mean come on...who in their right mind is going to believe some bullshit like that?

Christians are the only real religion to add a FIFTH possibility: If you hit your neighbor, it may lead to violence, jail, the hospital and even death, but it also can lead STRAIGHT TO HELL!!!!

I mean, there are many spiritual truths in the Bible, that are universal to all humans regardless of whether they worship Christ, Allah, or Lindsay Lohan, and that are NOT UNIQUE to Christianity.


It is this stupid shit like the following that is fucking up the world:

MY RELIGION IS THE ONLY TRUE RELIGION! I FART IN YOUR GENERAL DIRECTION!

NO! MY RELIGION IS THE ONLY TRUE RELIGION! YOU DIE CAPITALIST PIG!

YOU MAKE CARTOON OF MY RELIGION, I KILL MANY TENS OF PEOPLE!



You who believe the above sort of rubbish are ALL FUCKED IN THE HEAD!


Your religion may be what is best for YOU...it may be the only true religion for YOU....but just because YOU make such a warped and ridiculous claim doesn't make it true for anyone else.


Etc. Etc. Etc.


Now I must go worship at the Teagan Presley thread.

Remember kids: Jesus saves pennies in a jar!

:cool:

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
GA I have to agree.

I do not like it when those in power LIE to people in order to retain and/or increase their power.

On the other hand, I do believe that people should have an ethical/moral code to live by.


Yeah. Like the ten commandments, they sound ok to (apart from that whoring thing ;) ) but then the same wise words exist in many other religions too...it's more old wisdom than religion really.

When you force your religion into someone it's not a religion anymore, you're a fanatic, you're not following your own guidance.

Yup yup...gotta make some more examination...

[Coyote]

Religion: Millions of variations on a basic theme, all created to control man.

What a waste of time...

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
GA I have to agree.


What is your opinion on this:

How was "the legend of Jesus" born among the christians? Did they give birth to the story, true or not?

You had an interesting view on the logical appearance during the jewish rebellion.

I'd like to hear more views on your view, why and how did the christians apply the story of the jesus christ?

[Hardrock69]

Well, here is some factual stuff (again):

Jesus was a revolutionary.

He even instructed his followers to sell what they had and use the money to buy swords.

Pretty far from any kind of "peacenick", he was trying to actually accelerate open war with the Romans.

The last thing any church would want to do is to have it's membership emulating a revolutionary. In that context, Islam has more in common with Jesus than Christians do.

They sure as hell do not mind blowing themselves up for a cause....

It is a complete invention by later Christian authorities that there was a custom of releasing a prisoner on Passover.

That simply did not exist.
Not only that, it was Roman LAW that anyone crucified STAYED CRUCIFIED until there was not much left but some bleached bones....

So IF Pilate allowed anyone to take Jesus's body down that day, it was either because he was corrupt (he WAS corrupt anyway), or he wanted to avoid angering the population of Jerusaleum.


To more directly answer the question "Who created the story about Jesus", the main instigator was Paul (formerly Saul Of Tarsus). The story that he was "persecuting Christians" is laughable, as at that time there was no such thing as "Christians".

He was actually charged by the Romans with suppressing rebellious Jews.

Jesus's brother James The Just was the head of the Nasorean (not Nazarene) sect at Qumran. The story about Paul being struck blind on the way to Damascus is widely regarded as allegory. The community at Qumran was often referred to at that time as "Damascus", and it is also believed by many scholars these days that the regaining of his sight was just a way of saying that he "saw the light" so to speak when he went to Qumran....symbolic of his change of heart after he had spoken with James.

Acts 22:14 says he was told he would be introduced to the "Just One", which was an obvious reference to James.

But then, what he began to preach later on was not anything that had been told him by James, or others at Qumran...

So basically after this he began his own religion....using the term for Messiah to describe his followers as "Christians". He took the sayings of the Nasoreans literally, instead of figuratively, as they were meant to be interpreted.

He never knew Jesus personally, lied about his training as a Pharisee Rabbi, taught that the Law Of The Jews was not important (the Qumran community of which James The Just was a part could not possibly be any more Jewish than they were, and as Jesus himself was), and in his letters he declares he is not dependent upon the Apostles, describing them as 'servants of Satan', 'false apostles', and 'spurious brethren'.

Ya wanna see how hated and feared he was by the people of Jerusaleum, check out Acts chapter 21, where he misjudges his authority and enters the Temple, but is recognized as the man who taught against the Covenant Community and the Law when he was at Ephesus, and was then dragged out to be lynched by the crowd.

The Bible says about this incident that "all of Jerusaleum was in uproar" and several hundreds of Roman troops were turned out of the fortress of Antonia (adjacent to the Temple) to quell the disturbance.

In Corinthians 9:20-25 he openly states that he is a liar:

'I made myself a Jew to the Jews to win the Jews...To those who have no Law I was free of the Law myself...I made myself all things to all men....That is how I run intent on winning; that is how I fight, not beating the air.'

It is late, I will have to post more (if I do) at a later date.

However the nutshell version is that Paul was a fraud, and was fortunate to escape Jerusaleum with his life.....one of the gospels which was not included in the New Testament at the Council of Nicea was The Book Of James...another was the Book Of Mary.

Why would these have not been included in the New Testament?

Perhaps because those two persons would have not seen Jesus as a "GOD" or somehow superhuman. James was his own brother.
Mary knew him, and could have been closer to him than other people. They lived around him for long periods of time, and in the case of James, lived around him for a large part of his life....


The last thing the early Catholic Church needed were stories floating around that would undermine their mythology, and thus their "power" over their followers.

And of course, that has held true until the present day. At the expense of the lives of many millions of people over the past 2,000 years.

Mmmmm...me tired.
later......

[Golden AWe]

A very, very interesting read...thanks...I won't change the station! :)

[sadaist]

It's all faith. You either believe or you don't.

If you're living like there is no God, you better hope you are right.

[Dan]

Where's Jesus Tonight?

[Hardrock69]

Jesus is buried in the Middle East somewhere...with ants crawling out of his eye socket.

[Nitro Express]

How many of us were Christians because we would catch hell from our parents and grandparents if we came out and said,"I don't believe in Christ!"? I never believed in Jesus. I always viewed the baptisimal and sacrement ordinances of my familiy's religion as brain washing tools. I always thought the "We are the only true church on earth" attitude was rediculouse.

If you are a member of a religiouse group and free thinking and discussion is not allowed. It's time to run! If anyone claims to be a prophet or messiah, really run! Successful religions use family and peer pressure to keep you in. Once you have the first generation locked in, it becomes harder for the following generations to get out.

[Nitro Express]

Christianity is almost dead and gone in Europe. It never came back in the former Soviet Union the way Christians here in the US hoped it would. The United States is the biggest bastion of Christians next to Latin America.

I think Christianity is the big divide in the US right now. Half of the population has figured out he's never going to come back and save the day. The other half are saying he's going to be back anyday since it's been almost 2,000 years and the 7th seal is close to being opened.

Of course this is all based on a book written by a guy called John the Revelator who we don't even know who he was or what role he had in the church. Go figure.

[EbDawson]

Originally posted by Dan
Where's Jesus Tonight?

Jesus just left Chicago and he's bound for New Orleans.

[Hardrock69]

LMFAO!
True dat!!

We all have to listen to our parents when growing up.

Parenting usually involves installing some belief system into their child's CPU.

Eventually, if that child has any brain power at all, it will wake up and decide for itself what it wants to believe, or will at the very least investigate the belief system it has to see if it has any validity in the real world.

My family was non-religious.

Never went to church, or anything like that.

My parents are intellectuals, who taught me to think for myself.

So I did.

Therefore it was easy to see that Organized Religion is just another version of a Con game that people are taught they MUST be a part of.

Some people realize eventually they do not need to be a part of that. They understand right from wrong, and do not find it necessary to waste their money, time, or whatever supporting such an organization.

Other people require a crutch. They cannot think for themselves, need to be TOLD what to do (sheeple), or they need some excuse for the things that happen in their lives.

"The DEBBIL made me do it!"

"It was the will of De Lawd!"

Etc.

Not to mention the assholes in the Catholic Church who held the power of excommunication over the populace.....keeping people ignorant of the fact that excommunication would not hurt them in any way, ignorant of the fact they were being lied to.

That is the oldest trick in the book...keeping the constituency ignorant so those in power can stay that way.

This is why in many cases back in the day the only people ALLOWED to have an education were people within the Catholic Church.

Threaten people with heckfire and darnation if they did not suck the Catholic Cock.


Currently this is why the religious authorities are going nuts trying to prove the info in The DaVinci Code, etc. is ALL a work of fiction, when the reality is that only some of the book (mainly the murder mystery part) is fictional.

There is a lot of stuff in history where there is no way to verify the truth.

But there is a lot of stuff that CAN be verified, that the Catholic Church has been trying to keep quiet about for 1700 years.

The Gospel Of Judas is only one example of MANY...though it is the most recent.

We are all in the wrong business. We need to start our own religion....call it something like "Fundaligionism".

You send us your money, and feel that you are somehow blessed by God for doing so.

That is the actual truth of all religion.

[Jérôme Frenchise]

Another hardrockin' post, HR. :cool:

All "-isms" are mistakes right from the start IMO.

Yesterday I rehearsed with my band in the bass player's granny's house near Lake Geneva. The granny's just gone to a retirement home, and as our usual studio wasn't available we took our equipment there. Our bassist is planning to make a studio in the cellar - that's full of great vintages :) - but for the moment we had to play in... the kitchen.
We visited the big house before starting rehearsing. The walls were covered with holy pics and crucifixes, not a single room without one, safe the toilet - but I'm not so sure...
Our final song is a "Sympathy for the devil" cover... We joked about it, pretending to wonder what might happen while we would be playing that one. :D
Of course nothing occurred. But I thought, damn, the old widow has spent her whole life in exaggerated religiosity, turning her home into the stations of the cross, and it only took her grand child and his mean bandmates an afternoon to turn it into a den of heathens...
Ah, the irony of fate! :D

[Hardrock69]

LMFAO!!!

[Shaun Ponsonby]

Never seen this thread before.

Its fasinating.

[Jimmy Jingles]

Another thing I have always had a huge problem with is "The Earth is only 6000 years old" bullshit that Christians believe.

Even though we can now prove otherwise.

And what about Dinosaurs? They claim that Adam and Eve were walking around at the same time as a Tyrannosaurs Rex! Gimme a LARG break! That fucking T-Rex what have ate their asses the very first day and fertilized the garden with his gigantic shit.

[Shaun Ponsonby]

And, wouldn't Adam be more preoccupied that he was encountering a talking snake? I don't know about you, but the fact that he was asking me if I wanted an apple would be a side issue for me.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Little Texan
On a related note, I was watching something on the Discovery channel here a while back about the story of Noah, and they said a story very similar to that existed way before the events of Noah's flood alledgedly took place, called the Epic of Gilgamesh. I've always had a problem with that story in the bible in particular. I mean, how do you get two of every single creature on Earth onto a boat built by an old man and his sons, and feed every one of them everyday for 40 days and 40 nights, and survive? We're not talking about just cute and cuddly animals, either, but dangerous animals such as lions, tigers, bears, snakes, etc.! It all just reeks of bullshit, and reads exactly like a fairy tale to me.

At first reading it seems fucking stupid but if you actually examine it things start to get very funny.

There are 350 000 species of beetle in the world.

You say Noah was old, he was 'actually' 600 which is really fucking old.

To make the creationists, 'or intelligent design' people as they like to call themselves these days argument work, it's not just all the animals now it's all the animals ever so there were a pair of fucking T-Rex on the boat.



And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.


Using a bit of armchair maths, we can roughly calculate how much water would have been needed to cover the planet to the top of Mt. Everest:
The radius of the Earth is approx. 6370km
The height of Everest above sea-level is approx. 8.8 km
Therefore, the volume of the Earth is approx. 1,082,696,932,000km³, or 1,080 billion cubic kilometers.
The volume of the earth to the height of Everest is 1,087,190,293,000km³
Subtracting the first volume from the second gives approx. 4,493,361,000, or four thousand, five hundred million cubic kilometers of water!
Also, this rain is supposed to have fallen within about 40 days. That means that there would have been about 220 metres of rainfall every day over the entire planet (8800/40 = 220)! A few centimetres in a day is considered to be extremely heavy rain.

And finally for just now plants. How many plants survive underwater for 40 days.

Even if this nonsense was true it means that god is a fallible baby murdering cunt so he can go fuck himself. Going to church each Sunday to worship a being like that would be like going to a Hitler rally in order to avoid being murdered.

Fuck his nonexistent ass and if he does exist, Christians should be tarred and feathered as collaborators with an evil regime.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

And don't get me started on that pedophile Mohamed...

[Jérôme Frenchise]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
At first reading it seems fucking stupid but if you actually examine it things start to get very funny.

There are 350 000 species of beetle in the world.

You say Noah was old, he was 'actually' 600 which is really fucking old.

To make the creationists, 'or intelligent design' people as they like to call themselves these days argument work, it's not just all the animals now it's all the animals ever so there were a pair of fucking T-Rex on the boat.



Using a bit of armchair maths, we can roughly calculate how much water would have been needed to cover the planet to the top of Mt. Everest:
The radius of the Earth is approx. 6370km
The height of Everest above sea-level is approx. 8.8 km
Therefore, the volume of the Earth is approx. 1,082,696,932,000km³, or 1,080 billion cubic kilometers.
The volume of the earth to the height of Everest is 1,087,190,293,000km³
Subtracting the first volume from the second gives approx. 4,493,361,000, or four thousand, five hundred million cubic kilometers of water!
Also, this rain is supposed to have fallen within about 40 days. That means that there would have been about 220 metres of rainfall every day over the entire planet (8800/40 = 220)! A few centimetres in a day is considered to be extremely heavy rain.

And finally for just now plants. How many plants survive underwater for 40 days.

Even if this nonsense was true it means that god is a fallible baby murdering cunt so he can go fuck himself. Going to church each Sunday to worship a being like that would be like going to a Hitler rally in order to avoid being murdered.

Fuck his nonexistent ass and if he does exist, Christians should be tarred and feathered as collaborators with an evil regime.

Cheers!

:gulp:

:D Hey, this is AWESOME!

A 5 billion-star post, no kidding. :cool:

Jesus's and all the "smala's" story is so impossible that Christians have to believe in it.
Then they'll tell you that everything in their biblic charabia is symbolic, that it's all imagery and so on...
Besides, believing in Jesus and his jolly holy family defies reason, so as any other believers you can never reach Christians with cartesian arguments.
You can't prove an adept of whatever religion that he/she is wrong, nor can they prove they're right.
Yet, Gods are the grown-up version of Santa Claus IMO. :)

[Seshmeister]

I have friends who are preachers. I have absolutely no problem at all with christian people who see the message of the bible as an allegorical message of love and forgiveness and use stuff like the sermon on the mound as a moral crutch and blueprint.

That's all fucking great in my book. I wish everyone turned the other cheek and loved everybody.

The reason I constantly make posts about the stupidity of literal interpretation of the bible is I detest the bullshit evil crap that is spouted by bible literists who are almost exactly like Islamic fundamentalists.

Literalism of ancient scripture is all lazy thinking and self justification for immorality.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Golden AWe]

GRATE posts, Sesh.

Cheers!

[Hardrock69]

LMFAO!!!

Shit man...you said it really well.

I agree the Bible is ok as far as teaching a moral code to live by.

It is the zealots who are SO FUCKING STUPID that they believe everything in it LITERALLY.

Reminds me of a Far Side cartoon, where these two guys are in this room, and there is a trap door opened in the floor, and the head of a live T-Rex is staring up out of it.

One guy says to the other "Bet you a dollar he won't bite"

And the caption reads something like "Jed loses a dollar"

:D

[EbDawson]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
We are all in the wrong business. We need to start our own religion....call it something like "Fundaligionism".

You send us your money, and feel that you are somehow blessed by God for doing so.



I don't know. Fred tried that on Sanford and Son and it was a mess.

[Mulattothrasher]

The Documentary Evidence

In fact, for events in the lives of Jesus and his apostles, documentary evidence apart from the Bible is quite limited. This is only to be expected, since in the first century, Christians were a relatively small group that did not get involved in politics. But the evidence that secular history does provide agrees with what we read in the Bible.

For example, after Herod Antipas suffered a resounding military defeat, the Jewish historian Josephus, writing in 93_C.E., said: “To some of the Jews the destruction of Herod’s army seemed to be divine vengeance, and certainly a just vengeance, for his treatment of John, surnamed the Baptist. For Herod had put him to death, though he was a good man and had exhorted the Jews to lead righteous lives, to practise justice towards their fellows and piety towards God.”10 Thus Josephus confirms the Bible account that John the Baptizer was a righteous man who preached repentance and who was executed by Herod.—Matthew 3:1-12; 14:11.

Josephus also mentions James, the half brother of Jesus, who, the Bible tells us, did not initially follow Jesus but later became a prominent elder in Jerusalem. (John 7:3-5; Galatians 1:18,_19) He documents James’ arrest in these words: “[The high priest Ananus] convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others.”11 In writing these words, Josephus additionally confirms that “Jesus, who was called the Christ” was a real, historical person.

Other early writers too refer to things mentioned in the Greek Scriptures. For example, the Gospels tell us that Jesus’ preaching around Palestine met with a wide response. When he was sentenced to death by Pontius Pilate, his followers were confused and disheartened. Soon afterward, these same disciples boldly filled Jerusalem with the message that their Lord had been resurrected. In a few years, Christianity had spread throughout the Roman Empire.—Matthew 4:25; 26:31; 27:24-26; Acts 2:23, 24,_36; 5:28; 17:6.

Witness to the truth of this comes from the Roman historian Tacitus, who was no friend of Christianity. Writing soon after 100_C.E., he tells of Nero’s cruel persecution of the Christians and adds: “Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judaea, the home of the disease, but in the capital [Rome] itself.”12

At Acts 18:2 the Bible writer refers to the fact that “[the Roman emperor] Claudius had ordered all the Jews to depart from Rome.” Second-century Roman historian Suetonius also refers to this expulsion. In his work The Deified Claudius, the historian says: “Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.”13 If Chrestus here refers to Jesus Christ and if the events in Rome followed the pattern in other cities, then the riots were not actually at the instigation of Christ (that is, Christ’s followers). Rather, they were the Jews’ violent response to the faithful preaching activity of Christians.

Justin Martyr, writing in the middle of the second century, wrote in reference to the death of Jesus: “That these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.”14 In addition, according to Justin Martyr, these same records mentioned Jesus’ miracles, regarding which he says: “That He did those things, you can learn from_the Acts of Pontius Pilate.”15 True, these “Acts,” or official records, no longer exist. But they evidently did exist in the second century, and Justin Martyr confidently challenged his readers to check them to verify the truth of what he said.

[Mulattothrasher]

The Archaeological Evidence

Archaeological discoveries have also illustrated or confirmed what we read in the Greek Scriptures. Thus, in 1961 the name of Pontius Pilate was found in an inscription in the ruins of a Roman theater at Caesarea.16 Until this discovery, there had been only limited evidence, apart from the Bible itself, of the existence of this Roman ruler.

In Luke’s Gospel, we read that John the Baptizer began his ministry “when ._._. Lysanias was district ruler of Abilene.” (Luke 3:1) Some doubted that statement because Josephus mentioned a Lysanias who ruled Abilene and who died in 34_B.C.E., long before the birth of John. However, archaeologists have uncovered an inscription in Abilene mentioning another Lysanias who was tetrarch (district ruler) during the reign of Tiberius, who was ruling as Caesar in Rome when John began his ministry.17 This could easily have been the Lysanias to whom Luke was referring.

In Acts we read that Paul and Barnabas were sent to do missionary work in Cyprus and there met up with a proconsul named Sergius Paulus, “an intelligent man.” (Acts 13:7) In the middle of the 19th century, excavations in Cyprus uncovered an inscription dating from 55_C.E. that mentions this very man. Of this, archaeologist G._Ernest Wright says: “It is the one reference we have to this proconsul outside the Bible and it is interesting that Luke gives us correctly his name and title.”18

When he was in Athens, Paul said he had observed an altar that was dedicated “To an Unknown God.” (Acts 17:23) Altars dedicated in Latin to anonymous gods have been discovered in parts of the territory of the Roman Empire. One was found in Pergamum with the inscription written in Greek, as would have been the case in Athens.

Later, while in Ephesus, Paul was violently opposed by silversmiths, whose income was derived from making shrines and images of the goddess Artemis. Ephesus was referred to as “the temple keeper of the great Artemis.” (Acts 19:35) In harmony with this, a number of terra-cotta and marble figurines of Artemis have been discovered at the site of ancient Ephesus. During the last century, the remains of the huge temple itself were excavated.

[Mulattothrasher]

Jesus—A Real Person

Many have viewed Jesus as he is described in the Bible as an idealized fiction. But historian Michael Grant notes: “If we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus’ existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.”19

Not only Jesus’ existence but also his personality comes through in the Bible with a decided ring of truth. It is not easy to invent an unusual character and then present a consistent portrait of him throughout a whole book. It is nearly impossible for four different writers to write about the same character and consistently paint the same picture of him if that character never really existed. The fact that the Jesus described in all four Gospels is obviously the same person is persuasive evidence of the Gospels’ truthfulness.

Michael Grant quotes a very appropriate question: “How comes it that, through all the Gospel traditions without exception, there comes a remarkably firmly-drawn portrait of an attractive young man moving freely about among women of all sorts, including the decidedly disreputable, without a trace of sentimentality, unnaturalness, or prudery, and yet, at every point, maintaining a simple integrity of character?”20 The only answer is that such a man really existed and acted in the way the Bible says.

[Jérôme Frenchise]

Originally posted by Mulattothrasher
The Documentary Evidence

In fact, for events in the lives of Jesus and his apostles, documentary evidence apart from the Bible is quite limited. This is only to be expected, since in the first century, Christians were a relatively small group that did not get involved in politics. But the evidence that secular history does provide agrees with what we read in the Bible.

For example, after Herod Antipas suffered a resounding military defeat, the Jewish historian Josephus, writing in 93_C.E., said: “To some of the Jews the destruction of Herod’s army seemed to be divine vengeance, and certainly a just vengeance, for his treatment of John, surnamed the Baptist. For Herod had put him to death, though he was a good man and had exhorted the Jews to lead righteous lives, to practise justice towards their fellows and piety towards God.”10 Thus Josephus confirms the Bible account that John the Baptizer was a righteous man who preached repentance and who was executed by Herod.—Matthew 3:1-12; 14:11.

Josephus also mentions James, the half brother of Jesus, who, the Bible tells us, did not initially follow Jesus but later became a prominent elder in Jerusalem. (John 7:3-5; Galatians 1:18,_19) He documents James’ arrest in these words: “[The high priest Ananus] convened the judges of the Sanhedrin and brought before them a man named James, the brother of Jesus who was called the Christ, and certain others.”11 In writing these words, Josephus additionally confirms that “Jesus, who was called the Christ” was a real, historical person.

Other early writers too refer to things mentioned in the Greek Scriptures. For example, the Gospels tell us that Jesus’ preaching around Palestine met with a wide response. When he was sentenced to death by Pontius Pilate, his followers were confused and disheartened. Soon afterward, these same disciples boldly filled Jerusalem with the message that their Lord had been resurrected. In a few years, Christianity had spread throughout the Roman Empire.—Matthew 4:25; 26:31; 27:24-26; Acts 2:23, 24,_36; 5:28; 17:6.

Witness to the truth of this comes from the Roman historian Tacitus, who was no friend of Christianity. Writing soon after 100_C.E., he tells of Nero’s cruel persecution of the Christians and adds: “Christus, the founder of the name, had undergone the death penalty in the reign of Tiberius, by sentence of the procurator Pontius Pilatus, and the pernicious superstition was checked for a moment, only to break out once more, not merely in Judaea, the home of the disease, but in the capital [Rome] itself.”12

At Acts 18:2 the Bible writer refers to the fact that “[the Roman emperor] Claudius had ordered all the Jews to depart from Rome.” Second-century Roman historian Suetonius also refers to this expulsion. In his work The Deified Claudius, the historian says: “Since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [Claudius] expelled them from Rome.”13 If Chrestus here refers to Jesus Christ and if the events in Rome followed the pattern in other cities, then the riots were not actually at the instigation of Christ (that is, Christ’s followers). Rather, they were the Jews’ violent response to the faithful preaching activity of Christians.

Justin Martyr, writing in the middle of the second century, wrote in reference to the death of Jesus: “That these things did happen, you can ascertain from the Acts of Pontius Pilate.”14 In addition, according to Justin Martyr, these same records mentioned Jesus’ miracles, regarding which he says: “That He did those things, you can learn from_the Acts of Pontius Pilate.”15 True, these “Acts,” or official records, no longer exist. But they evidently did exist in the second century, and Justin Martyr confidently challenged his readers to check them to verify the truth of what he said.


Originally posted by Mulattothrasher
The Archaeological Evidence

Archaeological discoveries have also illustrated or confirmed what we read in the Greek Scriptures. Thus, in 1961 the name of Pontius Pilate was found in an inscription in the ruins of a Roman theater at Caesarea.16 Until this discovery, there had been only limited evidence, apart from the Bible itself, of the existence of this Roman ruler.

In Luke’s Gospel, we read that John the Baptizer began his ministry “when ._._. Lysanias was district ruler of Abilene.” (Luke 3:1) Some doubted that statement because Josephus mentioned a Lysanias who ruled Abilene and who died in 34_B.C.E., long before the birth of John. However, archaeologists have uncovered an inscription in Abilene mentioning another Lysanias who was tetrarch (district ruler) during the reign of Tiberius, who was ruling as Caesar in Rome when John began his ministry.17 This could easily have been the Lysanias to whom Luke was referring.

In Acts we read that Paul and Barnabas were sent to do missionary work in Cyprus and there met up with a proconsul named Sergius Paulus, “an intelligent man.” (Acts 13:7) In the middle of the 19th century, excavations in Cyprus uncovered an inscription dating from 55_C.E. that mentions this very man. Of this, archaeologist G._Ernest Wright says: “It is the one reference we have to this proconsul outside the Bible and it is interesting that Luke gives us correctly his name and title.”18

When he was in Athens, Paul said he had observed an altar that was dedicated “To an Unknown God.” (Acts 17:23) Altars dedicated in Latin to anonymous gods have been discovered in parts of the territory of the Roman Empire. One was found in Pergamum with the inscription written in Greek, as would have been the case in Athens.

Later, while in Ephesus, Paul was violently opposed by silversmiths, whose income was derived from making shrines and images of the goddess Artemis. Ephesus was referred to as “the temple keeper of the great Artemis.” (Acts 19:35) In harmony with this, a number of terra-cotta and marble figurines of Artemis have been discovered at the site of ancient Ephesus. During the last century, the remains of the huge temple itself were excavated.


Originally posted by Mulattothrasher
Jesus—A Real Person

Many have viewed Jesus as he is described in the Bible as an idealized fiction. But historian Michael Grant notes: “If we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus’ existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.”19

Not only Jesus’ existence but also his personality comes through in the Bible with a decided ring of truth. It is not easy to invent an unusual character and then present a consistent portrait of him throughout a whole book. It is nearly impossible for four different writers to write about the same character and consistently paint the same picture of him if that character never really existed. The fact that the Jesus described in all four Gospels is obviously the same person is persuasive evidence of the Gospels’ truthfulness.

Michael Grant quotes a very appropriate question: “How comes it that, through all the Gospel traditions without exception, there comes a remarkably firmly-drawn portrait of an attractive young man moving freely about among women of all sorts, including the decidedly disreputable, without a trace of sentimentality, unnaturalness, or prudery, and yet, at every point, maintaining a simple integrity of character?”20 The only answer is that such a man really existed and acted in the way the Bible says.

BULL

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Mulattothrasher
The Documentary Evidence

In fact, for events in the lives of Jesus and his apostles, documentary evidence apart from the Bible is quite limited.

'Quite limited'?

Try nonexistent.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Mulattothrasher
Jesus—A Real Person

Many have viewed Jesus as he is described in the Bible as an idealized fiction. But historian Michael Grant notes: “If we apply to the New Testament, as we should, the same sort of criteria as we should apply to other ancient writings containing historical material, we can no more reject Jesus’ existence than we can reject the existence of a mass of pagan personages whose reality as historical figures is never questioned.

Who? Santa Claus?

[Jérôme Frenchise]

Originally posted by Jérôme Frenchise
BULL

Oh, sorry, it was 5 am, I had just come back from a huge party, honestly, I hadn't read a single line. :o

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Mulattothrasher
Not only Jesus’ existence but also his personality comes through in the Bible with a decided ring of truth. It is not easy to invent an unusual character and then present a consistent portrait of him throughout a whole book. It is nearly impossible for four different writers to write about the same character and consistently paint the same picture of him if that character never really existed. The fact that the Jesus described in all four Gospels is obviously the same person is persuasive evidence of the Gospels’ truthfulness.

Michael Grant quotes a very appropriate question: “How comes it that, through all the Gospel traditions without exception, there comes a remarkably firmly-drawn portrait of an attractive young man moving freely about among women of all sorts, including the decidedly disreputable, without a trace of sentimentality, unnaturalness, or prudery, and yet, at every point, maintaining a simple integrity of character? The only answer is that such a man really existed and acted in the way the Bible says.

Hahahahahah.

Well that's me cuntvinced. Did you even read this fucking garbage?

Jesus must exist because the 4 gospels are similar?

First up there are dozens of inconsistencies.

Secondly there were about 30 writers on Friends so that makes the only possibility that such a man as Chandler existed and acted in the way the TV script says.

REJOICE CHICKEN LITTLE IS A TRUE STORY

http://www.lovetoparty.co.nz/images/Chicken%20Plate3.jpg

Chicken Little (2005)

Writing credits
Mark Dindal (story) &
Mark Kennedy (story)
Steve Bencich (screenplay) &
Ron J. Friedman (screenplay) and
Ron Anderson (screenplay)
Robert L. Baird (additional story material) (as Robert Baird) &
Dan Gerson (additional story material) (as Daniel Gerson)
Sara Parriott (additional screenplay material) &
Josann McGibbon (additional screenplay material)
David Reynolds (additional dialogue) and
Sandra Tsing Loh (additional dialogue)

[Mulattothrasher]

Hmmm....typical responses from enlightened, "open minded" people.

[Jérôme Frenchise]

Quoting your source(s) would have been a minimal act of honesty.
This is no copy/paste forum. :rolleyes:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Mulattothrasher
Hmmm....typical responses from enlightened, "open minded" people.

Well argue your point with something...anything...

[Jérôme Frenchise]

He has no point of his own. All he does is pick out bits from here and there and posts them as they are, without the slightest personal argument.
Quoting is OK, if only you mention your sources and use your borrowed thoughts to support your own ideas. Otherwise... :rolleyes:

[Hardrock69]

The above still does not address one of the central issues...that no writings exist by anyone who was alive while Jesus was.

I do not doubt he existed, but the Catholic Church ascribed a lot of activity and statements to him that he may not have ever said or done.

For instance, when the New Testament is discussing Jesus when he was alone, etc.

If Jesus was alone, the only person who would actually know what was said or done by him would be Jesus.

Therefore all such material concerning him when he was by himself can easily be seen as fiction.

And that is just one item out of many that demonstrate the lack of evidence concerning him.


Why are there no written accounts by anyone in the first person?

So a bunch of people 60-200 years later happened to mention him.

This makes him real?

So I guess Mickey Mouse is real too! People have been talking about him for over 75 years now!

:rolleyes:

[Seshmeister]

I studied Latin for 5 years to a pretty advanced level.

There is a spectacular amount of written stuff by contempory writers on that period. There is far more evidence about that time than William Wallace or Columbus or whatever.

No mention of Jesus Christ though...

I think Paul invented the whole thing. He was the David Koresh of his time.

[Anonymous]

Interesting thread... lemme sum it up for ya:

It's all BULLSHIT! Made up bedtime stories, written by men like you and me who had nothing better to do. There is NO superior beings controling our lives, we are NOT here for a reason, we are NOT special - so stop feeling like you're a "superior life form", you're no better than that dog you just kicked today on the way home - and there is no such a thing as a fuckin' soul.

Why are we here?

Shit happened. Life appeared. Yes, just like that. Now go be self important "ooh I'm here because I'm special and God watches over me and I'm better than any other life form on Earth" against that wall over there and bask in your non existent glory in silence.

Thank you.

Cheers! :bottle:

[Mulattothrasher]

If you wanted links of the info I posted and stuff, all you have to do is google "proof of jesus" or whatever.
.
.
The site(s) will be pro Xian. Y'all would think its biased becasue its form a Xian site. There are neutral sites out there taht offer proof, I chose not to grab links from them is all for the info I listed previously.


http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn44/existence.htm

http://www.probe.org/content/view/18/77/

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn044/proof.html

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/historical-and-scientific-proof-of-jesus-faq.htm

[Hardrock69]

Hey Google "Proof Of St. Nicholas"...

[Nitro Express]

We're here because daddy shot his load into mommy.

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by Mulattothrasher
If you wanted links of the info I posted and stuff, all you have to do is google "proof of jesus" or whatever.
.
.
The site(s) will be pro Xian. Y'all would think its biased becasue its form a Xian site. There are neutral sites out there taht offer proof, I chose not to grab links from them is all for the info I listed previously.


http://www.gnmagazine.org/issues/gn44/existence.htm

http://www.probe.org/content/view/18/77/

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn044/proof.html

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/historical-and-scientific-proof-of-jesus-faq.htm

...and the evidence is...where?

there are several good questions and statements in this thread, yet you've failed to answer anyone of them.

[MERRYKISSMASS2U]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
We're here because daddy shot his load into mommy.

5 STARS FOR THAT..... YOU MADE ME LAUGH SO HARD!

[Mulattothrasher]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
...and the evidence is...where?

there are several good questions and statements in this thread, yet you've failed to answer anyone of them.


Hey, no one has to believe my posts. No one has to bleeive the links. If you have faith, good for you. If you do not have faith, then good for you.
.
.
Humor me. What are these questions you speak of? Theres more than a few of them...

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by Mulattothrasher
Hey, no one has to believe my posts. No one has to bleeive the links. If you have faith, good for you. If you do not have faith, then good for you.
.
.
Humor me. What are these questions you speak of? Theres more than a few of them...

Well, having no written evidence about Jesus from the time Jesus existed is a good start.

The similarity with the features of Jesus and so many other, much older religions is another. Someone seems to have come up with the stories much before?

Science in opposite of the miracles of the Bible is a third one, for starters.

[Nickdfresh]

Always a fun site: http://www.evilbible.com/

[Mulattothrasher]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
Well, having no written evidence about Jesus from the time Jesus existed is a good start.

The similarity with the features of Jesus and so many other, much older religions is another. Someone seems to have come up with the stories much before?

Science in opposite of the miracles of the Bible is a third one, for starters.


Well one link in particular lists plenty of evidence from historians in that time. Pliny the Younger, Josephus (jewish historian), Tacitus, Evidence from the Babylonian Talmud, Lucian of Samosata a Greek satirist back then. I'm sure theres more, but if this won't do, what will? Also too, when Jesus was first here, he had only twelve people following him, and this slowly grew as tiem went by. He ministered for 3 years I think it was. For there to be overwhelming scrolls and writitngs and whatnot is rather unfair to ask of a movement that started so small, where the "main character" was only around for about 3 years. Despite this, its grown and survived today, although many have lost what it means to follow him.
http://www.probe.org/content/view/18/77/


That could be said of anything. The bible has a flood story, so does the Epic of Gilgamesh in Babylonian times. Theres two. Cultures and people from all around the world have stories of the flood. Similarites are bound to happen. Nearly all religions speak of an enlighment/heaven, to love others, etc...Confucius and Jesus both stated the "Golden Rule," about doing to others what you would have done to you. Also, the fact that the Biblical "way" has outlasted the others should say a little there as well

Science and religion can mix and have harmony. When it comes to faith (believing something that may not have occured) and science (see, look at this!) its often one or the other with many folks. The Bible says the earth was round, for example, when so many thought it was flat or on the back of "Atlas" or whatever

[Golden AWe]

have you read any of the earlier pages in this thread?

[Hardrock69]

He can read?

[Hardrock69]

Jesus's ministry lasted one year.

[Mulattothrasher]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Jesus's ministry lasted one year.


28-33 C.E is the usual accepted time of his ministry. Depends on the Jewish claendar, Gregorian calendar, and the Julian calendar. Depending on what time you go by, determines the "years."
.
.
From the moment he was baptized by John the Baptist, to the time of his death one could say was the period he preached. Thats more than one year as you say, longer than what I suggested of 3 years. Regarldess, it was not a liftime of preachin'.

[Seshmeister]

I was going to start a new thread but this one deserves to be kept up.

Anyhoo on the Nativity myth this year lets look at the whole fucking nutty premise. The whole nativity story comes from two books of the New Testament Mathew and Luke.

We know that these were written many years after Jesus(if he existed), had died and after the epistles of Paul, the guy that invented the whole religion.

The Old Testament prophecy that the messiah would be born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2) had to be shoe horned into the Jesus story. Matthew has Mary and Joseph in Bethlehem all along, an obvious way to deal with the myth. Afterwards when Jesus is older they move to Nazereth. Luke has them living in Nazereth before Jesus is born so he’s got a bit of a fucking problem. Luke comes up with the idea Augustus says that for a census everyone has to go to ‘his own city’. Joseph to fit with the Jewish thing has to be related to David so has to go to Bethlehem.

This is fucking nuts.

David lived 1000 years previously so the efficient Romans made everyone go back to where they were 1000 years previously?

1000 years is an insane amount of time to go back. If you go back 1000 years I bet that everyone on this forum from all over the world is related. If you go back 1000 years I bet that Panamark from Australia is related to any of our posters from South America.

Historically there was a census but it was done in 6AD a good few years after Herods death.

Also this fucking crazy tracing of lineage. You may have had the misfortune to have to read or sit through the mind numbing tedious begat begat shit in the bible trying to prove the Jesus messiah shit Matthew traces Jesus lineage from King David via 28 generations, Luke has 41 and they are entirely different.

So what we have is two writers trying to bullshit their way through stuff.

Matthew is trying to fit with the Jewish messiah crap, Luke is trying to make the new religion fit with the old Hellenistic cults like Mithras of virgin birth and worship by kings etc etc nonsense.

So as usual it’s ‘Pick ‘N Mix’ Christian style.

Of course the huge problem with the Christian Pick N Mix is that it makes the ‘word of god’ thing total bullshit so all you are left with is the writings of primitive superstitious people.

Even more crazily the 4 gospels were chosen from at least 12 that might have been included like the Gospels of Thomas, Peter, Nicodemus, Philip, Bartolomew and Mary Magdelan.

Why did they choose the 4 from 12?

Well the other ones were even more fucking crazy.

e.g. the gospel of Thomas has Jesus turning playmates into goats, mud into sparrows and helping his Dad with carpentry by lengthening bits of wood. As a side note the translation of carpentry may well be a mistake from the word meaning educated or artisan.


Cheers

:gulp:

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Why did they choose the 4 from 12?

Well the other ones were even more fucking crazy.


uhuhuhuhu

Intresting post. And funny too. Btw, if you can recommend some books etc about this stuff, let me know.

You know what the funny thing is? This thread makes me wanna re-read the bible and look for all this stuff.

Are you a double-agent for the christian church, Sesh?

[EbDawson]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
As a side note the translation of carpentry may well be a mistake from the word meaning educated or artisan.



There's a dude that used to pop up on the George Noury coast-to-coast show, I forget his name. He says that Joseph (Jesus' earthly pops) was not a "carpenter" but a wealthy architech, a builder. Quite rich and influential. It was interesting anyway.

Anyway answer me this, if Jesus wasn't real, how come we have Christmas sales at Wal-mart?

[FORD]

Originally posted by EbDawson
There's a dude that used to pop up on the George Noury coast-to-coast show, I forget his name. He says that Joseph (Jesus' earthly pops) was not a "carpenter" but a wealthy architech, a builder. Quite rich and influential. It was interesting anyway.



A rich guy couldn't get a hotel room in Bethlehem and had to sleep in the barn with a wife in labor?

Nah, that doesn't make sense at all.

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by EbDawson
There's a dude that used to pop up on the George Noury coast-to-coast show, I forget his name. He says that Joseph (Jesus' earthly pops) was not a "carpenter" but a wealthy architech, a builder. Quite rich and influential. It was interesting anyway.

Anyway answer me this, if Jesus wasn't real, how come we have Christmas sales at Wal-mart?

Because Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus. It is a pagan holiday dedicated to spending money!

The Jesus story is just window-dressing tacked onto the pagan winter solstice celebrations by the Catholic Church.

Oh, and Sesh, there were originally over 30 gospels.

I saw a show on the recently uncovered Gospel Of Judas.

Some so-called expert said it was a work of fiction.

Only problem? It is just as much a work of fiction as any of the other gospels, including the 4 in the New Testament.

Inversely, it is just as real as Matthew, Mark, Luke & John.

Those are just names tacked onto each gospel, by the way. Nobody actually knows who wrote them. Or when they were actually written.

Though most experts say the earliest of the 4 was written around 60 A.D., 27 years after the theoretical crucifixion.

There exists nothing that was written while Jesus was alive.

Everything in existence came out years or decades after his death.

[FORD]

The fact that the gospels WERE written in the decades after the Crucifixion absolutely excludes Judas from writing one, since he was dead.

Judas hung himself over his guilt for betraying Christ, so he wouldn't have been around to write much.

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by FORD
A rich guy couldn't get a hotel room in Bethlehem and had to sleep in the barn with a wife in labor?

Nah, that doesn't make sense at all.

What really doesn't make sens to me, is the fact that "the guy" didn't eaven have to bang his wife, in order to get her pregnant! :o

[Hardrock69]

Who says Judas wrote a Gospel? The one in question was carbon-dated to around 280 A.D., was known to exist by 180 AD (as another early Christian leader wrote about it), but like the other 30 or so (including the NT 4), nobody knows when the original was written or who wrote it. It was called the Gospel Of Judas because that is who it concerns.
;)

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by FORD
A rich guy couldn't get a hotel room in Bethlehem and had to sleep in the barn with a wife in labor?

Nah, that doesn't make sense at all.


I love how a pregnant virgin travels 70 miles on a donkey for over 10 days to take part in a non existent census before giving birth to a baby who is god but not god and a the holy ghost but also not the holy ghost and the thing that makes no sense to you is limitations of hotel provision in Bethlehem.:)

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by FORD
Judas hung himself over his guilt for betraying Christ, so he wouldn't have been around to write much.

Says who?

You are falling into the trap again...

[Hardrock69]

Oh, and yes, death does preclude Judas from writing much of anything.....
:D

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
uhuhuhuhu

Intresting post. And funny too. Btw, if you can recommend some books etc about this stuff, let me know.

You know what the funny thing is? This thread makes me wanna re-read the bible and look for all this stuff.

Are you a double-agent for the christian church, Sesh?

I totally recommend reading the bible. Most Christians don't or at least don't read it in the same way they would read any other book. It's nonsense. And even if the tiny chance it wasn't ,as I said earlier in this thread, then people are worshipping an evil cunt so fuck him.

Bookwise as a start I would recommend 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins who is an amazingly clever guy. Also it's quite an easy read.

You can get a flavor from http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42230

It's very reassuring when a genius backs up and explains what you have thought for a while.

Cheers

:gulp:

[FORD]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Says who?

You are falling into the trap again...

Says the Gospels. If you don't believe the Gospels, then it doesn't matter whether Judas hung himself, or was killed by gangsta rapper Romans in a chariot drive-by shooting. Either way, the guy wasn't going to be around to write a Gospel 20 or 30 years later.

But then, if you want to believe that the Gospels were totally fiction, then what does it matter who wrote them or when?

If you saw a reciept book from Caiaphas the high priest in Jerusalem with an entry that said "Paid to J. Iscariot - 30 pieces of silver for services rendered" you would probably still find a problem with the story.

I'm sure such a record existed at one time or another. Given the ruthlessness of the Roman IRS, the Jewish religious leaders probably documented the Hell out of their expenses.

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by FORD
But then, if you want to believe that the Gospels were totally fiction, then what does it matter who wrote them or when?

If you saw a reciept book from Caiaphas the high priest in Jerusalem with an entry that said "Paid to J. Iscariot - 30 pieces of silver for services rendered" you would probably still find a problem with the story.


But the fact is that such a book does not exist...

A personal question - why do you feel the need to believe in something so much you're ready to pass all the irrational stuff of the same book on the way?

[EbDawson]

Originally posted by FORD
A rich guy couldn't get a hotel room in Bethlehem and had to sleep in the barn with a wife in labor?

Nah, that doesn't make sense at all.

Forgot his VISA card?

Wasn't my theory, just talking about it. Interesting though. In light of the theme of this thread, how do we know that J. C. was really born in a manger, cave, grotto whatever and not the Bethlehem Holiday Inn?

[EbDawson]

Originally posted by blonddgirl777
What really doesn't make sens to me, is the fact that "the guy" didn't eaven have to bang his wife, in order to get her pregnant! :o

Not to get off-topic, (never do that around here), but Phil Hendrie had a bit on that very topic once. A minister was reflecting how Joseph must have felt when his wife got knocked up by someone else. God told Joseph, "I'm gonna make your wife pregnant and you're gonna walk around and like it". It was like God squatted down on Joseph and did a #2. One of Phil's funniest bits.!! :lol:

[Seshmeister]

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/04/0406_060406_judas.html


Lost Gospel Revealed; Says Jesus Asked Judas to Betray Him

Stefan Lovgren

for National Geographic News

April 6, 2006
He is one of the most reviled men in history.

But was Judas only obeying his master's wishes when he betrayed Jesus with a kiss?

That's what a newly revealed ancient Christian text says.

After being lost for nearly 1,700 years, the Gospel of Judas was recently restored, authenticated, and translated. (Get the full, twisting tale of the document's discovery and authentication.)

The Coptic, or Egyptian Christian, manuscripts were unveiled today at National Geographic Society headquarters in Washington, D.C. (National Geographic News is part of the National Geographic Society.)

What Does It Mean?

Some biblical scholars are calling the Gospel of Judas the most significant archaeological discovery in 60 years.

The only known surviving copy of the gospel was found in a codex, or ancient book, that dates back to the third or fourth century A.D.

The newly revealed gospel document, written in Coptic script, is believed to be a translation of the original, a Greek text written by an early Christian sect sometime before A.D. 180.

The Bible's New Testament Gospels—Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John—depict Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve Apostles of Jesus, as a traitor. In biblical accounts Judas gives up Jesus Christ to his opponents, who later crucify the founder of Christianity.

The Gospel of Judas, however, portrays him as acting at Jesus' request.

"This lost gospel, providing information on Judas Iscariot—considered for 20 centuries and by hundreds of millions of believers as an antichrist of the worst kind—bears witness to something completely different from what was said [about Judas] in the Bible," said Rodolphe Kasser, a clergyman and former professor in the Faculty of Arts at the University of Geneva in Switzerland.

[EbDawson]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Because Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus. It is a pagan holiday dedicated to spending money!


Get yourself outta here! :D

[FORD]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
But the fact is that such a book does not exist...

A personal question - why do you feel the need to believe in something so much you're ready to pass all the irrational stuff of the same book on the way?

I'm not entirely the"Biblical literalist" that some might imagine.

I believe this universe was designed by a Creator. Whether that Creator's driver's license reads "Jehova", "Elohim", "Allah" or "Wakan Tanka" doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me. Whether He created the entire planet in 6 days, 6 minutes or 6 billion years doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me, though I definitely DO believe that He directed the process. The details of the process may never be fully known to us, but does that really matter?

I believe that Creator had a son named Jesus Christ. Whether Jesus was born in a barn or in the Bethlehem Hilton really doesn't matter all that much, but they would have been kicked out of the room anyway, between the crying baby and all the visitors (shepherds, angels, wise men, etc.)

Not to mention Santa parking on the roof in the middle of the night, leaving reindeer crap all over the place...... ;)

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by FORD
The fact that the gospels WERE written in the decades after the Crucifixion absolutely excludes Judas from writing one, since he was dead.

Judas hung himself over his guilt for betraying Christ, so he wouldn't have been around to write much.


Hangman, hangman, hold it a little while,
Think I see my friends coming,
Riding a many mile.
Friends, did you get a little silver?
Did you get a little gold?
What did you bring me, my dear friends,
To keep me from the Gallows Pole?
What did you bring me to keep me from the Gallows Pole?

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
I love how a pregnant virgin travels 70 miles on a donkey for over 10 days to take part in a non existent census before giving birth to a baby who is god but not god and a the holy ghost but also not the holy ghost and the thing that makes no sense to you is limitations of hotel provision in Bethlehem.:)

Cheers!

:gulp:


Maybe his name was Brian!

Always look on the bright side of life!

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[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by FORD
I'm not entirely the"Biblical literalist" that some might imagine.

*clip*


Good luck and all the best for you.

I was raised in a christian family, (lutherian), my mother was a really religious person. But I feel that life is hell unless remain the positive attitude and keep on moving, and let the sun take care of it's children and the oil-heated inventions of man quide keep you warm when you turn on your favorite VH album when you're going through your homeless period in Denmark, trying to finish your final project at the same time when your girlfriend has cheated on you. Then you realize it's up to you to get up one more time and cheat on her with a slovakia bird, have a satanish laugh, carry on and come back and put up a rock concert with your school band. "Devil's plaything in my hand..." :D

Two years later that dear mother of yours passes away and you're happy for her the religion kept her positive until the end. However, that doesn't bring her back and it's hard to believe in a god that kills people like her, someone who's never hurt anybody. Same with plenty of others around the family.

Then you put on another grate album and keep carrying on with your life, supporting a dear girl who's gone through the same, talk through things that are in your mind, and step up from the table when it's your time to sing "Backdoor man" in the local heavy karaoke. You receive a huge applause and several girls give you a kiss and you get high fives from some guys. It's a little thing, and silly, byt it helps you to go on and see how it helps to let the energy float through you, also when you're talking about eating more chicken than any man's ever seen. Plus, you have stopped drinking and it's still fun to hang around in bars.

Yeah, remaining positive, staring at the sun, laughing at myself and listening to dark music, looking at dark humour and laughing at yourself has helped me the most all through these years.

Did god invent LP? :p

[Coyote]

"God gave rock'n'roll to you..."

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by FORD
I'm not entirely the"Biblical literalist" that some might imagine.

I believe this universe was designed by a Creator. Whether that Creator's driver's license reads "Jehova", "Elohim", "Allah" or "Wakan Tanka" doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me. Whether He created the entire planet in 6 days, 6 minutes or 6 billion years doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me, though I definitely DO believe that He directed the process. The details of the process may never be fully known to us, but does that really matter?

I believe that Creator had a son named Jesus Christ. Whether Jesus was born in a barn or in the Bethlehem Hilton really doesn't matter all that much, but they would have been kicked out of the room anyway, between the crying baby and all the visitors (shepherds, angels, wise men, etc.)

Not to mention Santa parking on the roof in the middle of the night, leaving reindeer crap all over the place...... ;)


http://www.boreme.com/boreme/funny-2006/delusional-p1.php

[GOD ALMIGHTY]

I DIDST GIVE ROCK AND ROLL TO THEE.

GIVE CREDIT WHERE CREDIT IS DUE.

JESUS WAS THE RESULT OF A NIGHT SPENT WITH MARY, WIFE OF JOSEPH.

JOSEPH HAD NOT YET KNOWN MARY, SO THY GOD DECIDED TO EXERT SOME INFLUENCE, AND APPEARED UNTO MARY. ONCE SHE WAS IN THE THROES OF HOLY ECSTASY, SHE BECAME QUITE WILLING TO CONTINUE UNTIL THE WEE HOURS OF THE MORNING.

NEVER FEAR, MY FAITHFUL SERVANTS. FOR THE LORD THY GOD DOTH HAVE A SENSE OF HUMOUR.

I BLESS ALL OF THEE, WITH THE EXCEPTION OF KATYDID, JOSEPH THUNDER, DYLANLEEROTH, AND THE MONGREL DOG KNOWN AMONGST THEE AS "JIZZYSTOOL".

THEY ART CURSED IN MINE EYES!
:mad:

[DrMaddVibe]

"No, I'm Brian!"

HA!:D

[WelshJon]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
I love how a pregnant virgin travels 70 miles on a donkey for over 10 days to take part in a non existent census before giving birth to a baby who is god but not god and a the holy ghost but also not the holy ghost and the thing that makes no sense to you is limitations of hotel provision in Bethlehem.:)

Cheers!

:gulp:

Oh yes!

[Hardrock69]

Sesh pretty much nailed it on the head. Or the ankle. Whatever.

Seems God got up on the wrong side of the Universe this morning...
:rolleyes:

[WARF]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
If 80% of the story is just stuff absorbed from myths then why should we believe any of it?

Mithraism, a religion derived from Zoroastrism, was very popular in Rome at the same time that Christianity was spreading. Mithras was believed to be the son of the sun, sent to the earth to rescue humankind. Two centuries before the appearance of Jesus, the myth of Mithras held that Mithras was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds. Mithras sacrificed himself and the last day had a supper with twelve of his followers. At that supper Mithras invited his followes to eat his body and drink his blood. He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again. Mithras' festival coincided with the Christian Easter.

This legend dates from at least one century before Jesus. It was absorbed in the Roman dogma. Jesus' attitude often resembles the legendary greek philospher Socrates (eg, the way he refuses to respond to Pilate).

The Egyptian god Osiris was also born on the 25th of December, died on a friday and resurrected after spending three days in the underworld.

The Roman god Dionysus was hailed as `The Saviour of Mankind' and `The Son of God'. Dionysus was born (on December 25) when Zeus visited Persephone. Therefore, his father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin. Announced by a star, he is born in a cowshed and visited by three Magis. He turns water into wine and raises people from the dead. He is followed by twelve apostles. Dionysus' resurrection was a popular myth throughout the Roman empire, although his name was different in each country. The rituals in honor of Dionysus included a meal of bread and wine, symbolizing his body and blood.

An amulet of the 3rd century has been found that depicts a crucified man (unmistakably Jesus) but bears the inscription "Orpheus Bacchus", which was yet another name for Dionysus. The 5th century Egyptian poet Nonnus wrote two long epic poems in Greek, one on the conquest of the world by Dionysus, and the other a verse paraphrase of one of the Christian gospels. Unfortunately, we know little of the Dionysus' faith because in 396 a mob of fanatical Christians destroyed the sanctuary of Eleusis, likely to have been the largest religious center in the world. We only know that the rituals were very popular and lasted several days.

The early Christians revered Dionysus's birthday as Jesus's birthday (Christmas) and the three-day Spring festival of Dionysus roughly coincides with Easter. Jews had their own version of this festival (the "therapeutae") since at least the year 10 (it is reported by Philo of Alexandria), which is 23 years before the crucifixion of Jesus (Armenians still celebrate the birthday of Jesus on january 6).

Jesus lived right at the beginning of the Roman empire. The first emperor, "Augustus", had the title of "saviour of the human race". The legend was that Augustus had been born nine months after his mother was "visited" by the god Apollo. The greatest Roman poet of all time, Virgil, had foretold in 40BC that a king would be born of a virgin. It was false, but it was widely believed by ordinary Romans that, in the year of Augustus' birth, the Roman senate had ordered the murder of all other children.

Pre-existing legends and current events influenced the way the official gospels were selected and doctored. Some scholars have even suggested the entire history of Jesus is a myth, based on pre-existing myths that were assembled by "gnostic" jews.

The official gospels were carefully chosen and edited to reflect a view acceptable to the Roman authorities and audience. For example, the official gospels blamed the Jews for killing Jesus, even if, of course, it was the Romans who killed him (for sedition). The earliest account of the life of Jesus, St Mark's gospel, was written during the Jewish rebellion of 66. It was not a time to claim that Jesus was a Jewish revolutionary. Jesus, in fact, is presented as a victim of the Jews.

Bullshit.

But I appreciate your theory.

I am a Christian, and I understand that some people were not born with the gift of Faith. I believe in the gospel of Christ because it is the truth. Jesus Loves us, and some parts of the bible including Genesis is total crap... because it was altered and put into the wrong hands... who rewrote it? Nobody knows... like Adam & Eve for an example... God created many people and races... if Adam and Eve were true then there would be no Asians, Blacks, etc etc... so as a Christian I believe that parts of the bible have been rewritten or destroyed...however in the book of Revelations 22:18-19 (which was written through the apostle John) states "I warn everyone who hears the words of this book: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, god will take away from him his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which is described in this book."

God told John this through the holy spirit, which is given to anyone who puts their faith in god... and he will speak to you.

So don't worry in that verse it explains that alot of stuff in the bible, that will be changed by evil men who have no faith in god... so many of you are right... some of it is a hoax.... but the gospel is not... (John, Matthew, Mark and luke) that's why all four are similiar in stories... Jesus Did die for our sins and I have even better news for those who are not Christian!!

Jesus Christ is the son of God.
Those who believe in Christ are god's Children.
So Jesus is not only God's son... but I am a brother of Jesus!
Jesus says those who believe in him...
He will answer their prayers!
So guess what??
Just as Jesus died on the cross for our sins..
I have the power to forgive others through prayer from Jesus Christ.
And since Jesus promises that those who believe prayers will be answered... I pray for those who are NOT believers in Christ... for them to be able to go to heaven and so do other CHRISTIANS!!!

So that means even Sesh who has no faith... WILL STILL GO TO HEAVEN!!!

Now that doesnt mean you should all go around and kill people and sleep around with millions of women and sin...

You should try to live your life as a Christian!
And you will be more blessed!!

Some people do not have the ability to believe... some people are born Jewish and have parents who don't believe... but since I am apart of GOD and GOD is with me... he will answer my prayers!
And I pray that everyone who doesn't know god... please let them into heaven!!

Isn't that cool???

[Hardrock69]

I tend not to believe in fairy tales.

One can live their life as a Muslim or Jew and be just as blessed as a Christian.

Or if they wish to believe on the Holy Tricycle of Antioch, and can derive the same spiritual satisfaction as someone who is Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Christian, Moron, whatever, then more power to them.
http://www.mrtoys.com/radioflyer/pics/classic_34_red_tricycle.jpg

However, people shouldn't try to push their religion off on other people. For instance, the pathetic lie that other people will go to Hell if they do not believe as they do. That is just laying a guilt trip on people to try to convince them that "My fairy tale is real and yours is not".

A "Christian" is no more "blessed" or likely to "enter Heaven" than anyone in any other religion.

All this crap about "If you are not a Christian who worships JEE-ZUSSS-AHHH!!, then you will die and go to Hell" (though it is the 'opinion' of many 'Christians') is just a pile of fucking shit.

Anyone with half a brain would see how irrational it is to believe something like that. No matter how much 'Christians' scream and howl and cry that all the non-Christians cannot find true happiness without JEE-ZUSSS-AHH!!!, the blatant truth is that a majority of people on this planet are just fine and dandy without worshipping JEE-ZUSSS-AHHH!!!!, and have no intention of ever doing so.

In fact, billions of people were perfectly content with whatever their religious beliefs were LONG BEFORE Jeeeezusss was ever even "born".

[WARF]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
I tend not to believe in fairy tales.

One can live their life as a Muslim or Jew and be just as blessed as a Christian.

Or if they wish to believe on the Holy Tricycle of Antioch, and can derive the same spiritual satisfaction as someone who is Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Christian, Moron, whatever, then more power to them.
http://www.mrtoys.com/radioflyer/pics/classic_34_red_tricycle.jpg

However, people shouldn't try to push their religion off on other people. For instance, the pathetic lie that other people will go to Hell if they do not believe as they do. That is just laying a guilt trip on people to try to convince them that "My fairy tale is real and yours is not".

A "Christian" is no more "blessed" or likely to "enter Heaven" than anyone in any other religion.

All this crap about "If you are not a Christian who worships JEE-ZUSSS-AHHH!!, then you will die and go to Hell" (though it is the 'opinion' of many 'Christians') is just a pile of fucking shit.

Anyone with half a brain would see how irrational it is to believe something like that.

It's not ALL fairy tales!
Some of it is Bullshit and some of it is real!!!
But the gospel is real!
There is alot of stuff in Genesis that contradicts what Christ preaches!!
There is a god... but some of the bible makes it seem like god hates us... but he loves us... he loves us unconditionally... so he gave us Christians the gift to forgive others just like Christ forgave us on the cross... so that all of mankind will go into heaven... and the Devil will be defeated... and you will feel like idiots up there for not believing in the truth now!!

[Hardrock69]

He gave Muslims and Jews the same abilities to forgive others, WITHOUT having to be a 'Christian'.

;)

[WARF]

I tell you the truth!
Jesus is real... Christianity is real!
Some Christians are confused and hate others and tell them they will go to hell... and that is WRONG!
That's why I don't belong to organized religion... not that all of it is bad... but some of it is misused and hurts people!
But I tell you this... those who don't believe are wrong...
But I must also tell you the truth... you will all go to heaven!!!
Through the power of the holy spirit that was given to me... I tell you that through my prayer and the prayer of others... god will forgive you of your sins and will you all go to heaven!!!
Isnt's that fucking awesome???
And don't you feel like a jackass sesh, that even Christ will forgive you for not believing???

[WARF]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
He gave Muslims and Jews the same abilities to forgive others, WITHOUT having to be a 'Christian'.

;)

Yeah, but the muslims believe in a false god... and the real god knows this... so he will forgive them through the body of christ who died for all of our sins... and through REAL christians like me who pray for other to be forgiven!!

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by WARF
It's not ALL fairy tales!
Some of it is Bullshit and some of it is real!!!

I agree.



Originally posted by WARF
But the gospel is real!

Which gospel? There were over 30 of them written (that have been discovered anyway).


Originally posted by WARF

There is alot of stuff in Genesis that contradicts what Christ preaches!!

Hmmm...many Christians seem think he was preaching directly out of the Old Testament, as that is all that existed at the time....




Originally posted by WARF
There is a god... but some of the bible makes it seem like god hates us... but he loves us... he loves us unconditionally... so he gave us Christians the gift to forgive others just like Christ forgave us on the cross... so that all of mankind will go into heaven... and the Devil will be defeated... and you will feel like idiots up there for not believing in the truth now!!

See? Here you go stating others WILL 'feel like idiots up there for not believing in the truth now!!'.

What truth? Buddhists are not going to feel like idiots, as they believe in the truth.

Muslims believe in the truth. So do Jews.
Heck, lotsa Agnostics believe in the truth also.

So who are you to say they will 'feel like idiots'?

[Seshmeister]

Superstitious mumbo jumbo.

You say that parts of the bible are bullshit, how do you choose which parts of the 'word of god' are BS?

Adam and Eve is BS because there are black people yet you are fine with a virgin birth?:)

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by WARF
Yeah, but the muslims believe in a false god... a the real god knows this... so he will forgive them through the body of christ who died for all of our sins... and through REAL christians like me who pray for other to be forgiven!!

Oh so the Muslim and Jewish god is false, right?


Then the Christian God is false as well.

Are you sure you are not being a blasphemer by calling your own God "false"?.

[WARF]

Originally posted by Hardrock69

So who are you to say they will 'feel like idiots'?

What i'm saying that the bible together collectively... is filled with both truth and lies... but you must pick out the truth and believe in the Christ!

I'm not calling anyone idiots.

I am saying that the muslims are misled... and so are the jews for not believing in Jesus Christ... however... even the muslims and jews will go to heaven because through the power of Jesus and prayer... may be forgiven. It's not their fault that they have been misled due to where they were born or their religion! But the REAL god loves us and will even forgive those who sin against him.

So when you go to heaven, you will be overwhelmed with joy... and you will probably say to yourself... why didn't I put my total faith in Jesus! That is all.

[katie]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
He gave Muslims and Jews the same abilities to forgive others, WITHOUT having to be a 'Christian'.

;)

The ramblings of a madman!

[WARF]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Superstitious mumbo jumbo.

You say that parts of the bible are bullshit, how do you choose which parts of the 'word of god' are BS?

Adam and Eve is BS because there are black people yet you are fine with a virgin birth?:)

Cheers!

:gulp:

I believe that through the power of god anything is possible.
It's possible that parts of the bible may have been altered!
Who was standing their with a pen and paper when god was creating everything sesh? So I understand your point! But Jesus Christ loves all of us and will forgive us... even the muslims!!
Why do you mock Jesus with your signature sesh?
It's one thing to not believe... it's an other thing to mock him...
Why do you constantly mock him in your signature?

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by WARF
What i'm saying that the bible together collectively... is filled with both truth and lies... but you must pick out the truth and believe in the Christ!

I'm not calling anyone idiots.

I am saying that the muslims are misled... and so are the jews for not believing in Jesus Christ... however... even the muslims and jews will go to heaven because through the power of Jesus and prayer... may be forgiven. It's not their fault that they have been misled due to where they were born or their religion! But the REAL god loves us and will even forgive those who sin against him.

So when you go to heaven, you will be overwhelmed with joy... and you will probably say to yourself... why didn't I put my total faith in Jesus! That is all.


Keep in mind that Muslims and Jews think Christians are misled.

See?

Non-Christians are NOT misled.

They just have a different belief system. No better or worse than Christianity.

I am not against any particular religion.

I am against any religion that preaches intolerance against other religions.

Make sense?


Christians should not say that Muslims are mislead. Whether by birth, upbringing, etc.

They are not misled, they just believe differently.

Same thing for my beliefs.

Mine are no better or worse than anyone else's.

They are the correct beliefs for ME.


Christians can believe all they want about Jesus, the Sacrificial Lamb (mmmm Veal cutlets! Yumm!!! :D ).

But they should also believe in the fact that everyone is different, and has the right to their own viewpoint.

:)

Free will.

:cool:

[WARF]

Originally posted by Hardrock69

Are you sure you are not being a blasphemer by calling your own God "false"?.

The lord says that there is only ONE god, and to not put anyone else before him.

If Allah is the real GOD, why do they go around murdering people who do not believe as they do??? Even though some muslims are gentle people... but I ask you this... Do you believe that the REAL god will forgive others for believing in the false gods?

Or do you believe in multiple gods?

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by WARF
Why do you mock Jesus with your signature sesh?
It's one thing to not believe... it's an other thing to mock him...
Why do you constantly mock him in your signature?

He is free to mock JEE-ZUSSS-AHH!!!

Funny how when people mock Jesus, Christians do not strap on a dynamite vest and try to kill other people.

[WARF]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Keep in mind that Muslims and Jews think Christians are misled.

See?

Non-Christians are NOT misled.

They just have a different belief system. No better or worse than Christianity.

I am not against any particular religion.

I am against any religion that preaches intolerance against other religions.

Make sense?


Christians should not say that Muslims are mislead. Whether by birth, upbringing, etc.

They are not misled, they just believe differently.

Same thing for my beliefs.

Mine are no better or worse than anyone else's.

They are the correct beliefs for ME.


Christians can believe all they want about Jesus, the Sacrificial Lamb (mmmm Veal cutlets! Yumm!!! :D ).

But they should also believe in the fact that everyone is different, and has the right to their own viewpoint.

:)

Free will.

:cool:

All I saying is simple... without quoting the bible all day and boring you to death... because I was not a true Christian in one point in my life... and nor do I condemn other who believe differently.

But I will say this... The gospel is REAL.
Jesus is real....
and everyone here at this board will go to heaven... even the jews... even the muslims... and hopefully not Adolf Hitler or Osama Bin Laden... lol but even they might go to heaven if they are forgiven.

In closing... I say that Jesus Christ is Lord...
And he is the way the truth and the life!
And that you should choose him over other false gods!
Becuase you will all be face to face with him one day!

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by WARF
The lord says that there is only ONE god, and to not put anyone else before him.

You have not done your research.

Muslims Christians and Jews all worhip the same god.

If you call the god of Muslims and Jews false, you are saying the same thing about your own.


Originally posted by WARF


If Allah is the real GOD, why do they go around murdering people who do not believe as they do???

Any sane person would see that is wrong. Christians do the same thing on a much lesser level (like saying people will feel like idiots if they do not believe the story about Jesus).


Originally posted by WARF

Even though some muslims are gentle people... but I ask you this... Do you believe that the REAL god will forgive others for believing in the false gods?

All roads lead to Rome. Of course "God" will forgive everyone for believing in whatever God they worship.

Once again, who is to say a God is "false"?





Originally posted by WARF

Or do you believe in multiple gods?


Naaaah.....One God is plenty. It could get kinda confusing back in Classical Antiquity I am sure, like, in Ancient Rome, where they had hundreds of gods.....musta been kinda difficult to worship each one properly...especially if some gods called other gods false and all...
:D

[WARF]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
He is free to mock JEE-ZUSSS-AHH!!!

Funny how when people mock Jesus, Christians do not strap on a dynamite vest and try to kill other people.

Exactly!
That's how I know that Jesus is real and the others are false!
Although some Christians words are just as explosive as the dynamite around the waists of muslims.

I will say this the trinity is real.
Jesus was born from the virgin mary.
Jesus did come back!!
Thousands of people saw this... and the word of the gospel has not been re-written!!!
So live your life by the words of Jesus present through the gospel.
Remember to love one another.
If you see a homeless men on the street.
Do not be bitter towards him... help him!
For the money you have in you pocket belongs to GOD!
Don't wish hell to your enemies.... wish them eternal life with GOD!
If someones hates you.... hurt them with your kindness!!

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by WARF
All I saying is simple... without quoting the bible all day and boring you to death... because I was not a true Christian in one point in my life... and nor do I condemn other who believe differently.

Right on.
:cool:


Originally posted by WARF
But I will say this... The gospel is REAL.

Well the copies of the 30 known Gospels are real, though being almost 2,000 years old they are in pretty sad shape lol


Originally posted by WARF
Jesus is real....

As real as Obi Wan Kenobe...


Originally posted by WARF
In closing... I say that Jesus Christ is Lord...
And he is the way the truth and the life!

Yes, for YOU,


Originally posted by WARF
And that you should choose him over other false gods!

No. I should not. There is no "should" about it. If I want I will. If I don't want I won't. But it is up to me to decide.
:)


Originally posted by WARF
Becuase you will all be face to face with him one day!

Maybe, maybe not.

We will all find out someday, though I much would prefer to be face with Marilyn Monroe.

:D

[WARF]

I'm too damn lazy to quote you verse to verse lol.

I don't agree you should compare Obi Won Kenobi to Jesus! lol

Dude, there's no comparison.

Did Obi Won Kenobi ressurect from his grave and save us? LOL

I'm not telling you my religion is real and what you believe is false...

BUT I KNOW JESUS IS REAL!!!
And he will prove it to you in heaven!
So believe... even though you will go to heaven anyways!
BELIEVE!! LOL

I'm a christian... I don't label myself catholic or anything... nor do I Pass out cards of Jesus... so that people will throw them away!!
I tell my friends to believe though... and if they don't.. I pray for them... and I don't judge them for thinking differently!

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by WARF
Jesus was born from the virgin mary.

It does not state in the Bible that Mary was a virgin.


Originally posted by WARF
Jesus did come back!!
Thousands of people saw this...

Chapter and verse please. Don't think it was 'thousands'.

Mary Magdelene, the 12 apostles, and a few other people if I am not mistaken.


Originally posted by WARF
and the word of the gospel has not been re-written!!!
So live your life by the words of Jesus present through the gospel.
Remember to love one another.
If you see a homeless men on the street.
Do not be bitter towards him... help him!
For the money you have in you pocket belongs to GOD!
Don't wish hell to your enemies.... wish them eternal life with GOD!
If someones hates you.... hurt them with your kindness!!

Good advice for anyone (about loving one another).

Note that I posted some of the stuff above for your knowledge. About the virgin Mary, for instance. Do your research. I have only been studying the origins of Christianity and religion in the Middle East for 25 years.
Call it a hobby of mine.

If you believe that God created the Universe, then that is all that really matters.

All the stuff about what Jesus did or didn't do, what Mohammed had for breakfast just before Ramaddan in 600 A.D. or what the fuck kind of drugs Buddha was on to make him smile like that is all irrelevant.

Either you believe in a Supreme Being, or you don't.

How you get there is up to you.

All roads lead to Rome.
:cool:

[Hardrock69]

There were many other prophets who died and were born again. Jesus was not unique.

What I was getting at with that remark (about Obi Wan) is that even if Jesus survived the Crucifixion, he still died almost 2,000 years ago.

Meaning, perhaps he WAS real.

But as he is now just a name from History, he is actually as real as Obi Wan Kenobi, who was not real to begin with.
:cool:

[WARF]

I'm still to damn tired to quote you verse to verse... lol
I've been studying on and off all my life.
I will tell you truth... I never studied the Koran of the muslim religion.
So who am I to say they are going to hell?
However, they only way to get into heaven is through the lord Jesus!
Then again... I believe that through my prayer and in Jesus dying to forgive us of our sins... that all will go to heaven.
But I believe that us Christians are more specially blessed for believing the truth!!
So I never called anyone an "idiot"
It's just gonna be an "I told you so" :D

And as far as sesh and others mocking Christ that is bullshit!
Jesus wants us to love one another!
So don't hate the one who made us...
And even if you don't believe Jesus is lord...
Don't make fun of him...
Cuz he saved us all!!!

And no hardrock, "All roads don't lead to Rome"
You go to heaven through believing in Christ...
So trust him and you will be more blessed...
Even though you will go to heaven anyways through my prayers lmao!!

[WARF]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
There were many other prophets who died and were born again. Jesus was not unique.

What I was getting at with that remark (about Obi Wan) is that even if Jesus survived the Crucifixion, he still died almost 2,000 years ago.

Meaning, perhaps he WAS real.

But as he is now just a name from History, he is actually as real as Obi Wan Kenobi, who was not real to begin with.
:cool:

Well that's up to you to believe.
But i'm still gonna tell you, that your are wrong! lol
But if I start seeing people wear crosses with Obi-Won on them...
I will correct them! lol
Anyways... the other religions are still wrong!
uh u hu hu hu hu hu

Praise the lord!!!

[WARF]

Also what I think is unfair to katydid... lol
(I gotta defend her as my christian duty) lol

Why do people post pictures of her being anally raped by donkey...
Just for talking about Jesus Christ in the dump?

[WARF]

I put my faith in god!
And let him be "god"
He is the one that judges...
So if your a murdered and a thief...
You will stand before him, and be judged...
From the book of life...
And if your a "fuck up" god has the final say as well... lol
So it's sorta like us Christians can pray for people to go to heaven..
Cuz we are the jury... but GOD IS THE JUDGE!
So when Osama Bin Laden stands before god...
God can say the hell with you!
And it's his call....
I'm not sure if the murderers and terrorists will go to heaven.
But then again it's not my decision.
I do think that about 99% of us will go to heaven...
Unless you go around molesting gerbils and such...

[WARF]

For example Joe Thunder will be judged, for being a "pee pee" toucher!

[WARF]

[Users Browsing this Forum: Seshmeister

C'mon sesh say something, you've been browsing the forum for about an hour!

Why do you mock Jesus?

Jesus loves you... why do you make fun of him?

I mean... the fasting joke is one thing...

Calling him the hide and seek champion is another thing.

That's my lord... and that was fucked up.

[Seshmeister]

Why do you doubt your invisible friend?

Surely someone that doesn't exist is going to be shit hot at hide and seek...

http://www.ftmm.com/b3ta/presents.jpg

[Golden AWe]

Cocaine loves you WARF...it exists, it's real!

Post by post you're proving what millions of others have done already...forcing people to follow their religion...

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by WARF
Also what I think is unfair to katydid... lol
(I gotta defend her as my christian duty) lol

Why do people post pictures of her being anally raped by donkey...
Just for talking about Jesus Christ in the dump?

She's not talking about Jesus, she's copypasting mindless crap, not discussing it

And not only because of that, but also because she is a lunatic old hag and fucking ugly old bitch

"NO SHIT HEAD AVITARS"

[WARF]

I asked you a simple question...
Why do you mock Jesus Christ?
Do you fear him...
Is it all a joke?
I mean... what pleasure do you get from making fun of others?
Even if you don't believe Jesus was god... he was a real person.
Why do you insult him?
Do you not believe he even existed?
Did his message of LOVE, make you HATE him?
Do you even hate him?
If you were there for the crucifixtion would you have spit on him?

???

[WARF]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
She's not talking about Jesus, she's copypasting mindless crap, not discussing it

And not only because of that, but also because she is a lunatic old hag and fucking ugly old bitch

"NO SHIT HEAD AVITARS"

What did she do to make you hate her?

Doesn't everyone have the right to post what they want to?

I'm not defending her... i'm just sayin'...

Why do people spit on her, and post pictures of her having sex with monkeys?

[WARF]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
Cocaine loves you WARF...it exists, it's real!

Post by post you're proving what millions of others have done already...forcing people to follow their religion...

I'm not forcing anyone to do anything.
Everyone is free to believe what they want to.
And I don't hate anyone or wish anyone to go to hell.
I told everyone what I believe... and I am willing to listen to what they believe... that is all.
I am not the judge.

[WARF]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
Cocaine loves you WARF...it exists, it's real!

Pass me the straw dude.
I didn't read anywhere in the bible that says cocaine is against god!
uh uh u hu hu huh u huh
God created it!
u hu hu h uh uh u

[Seshmeister]

http://www.cix.co.uk/~rgarrad/b3ta/JesusImpotence.gif

[WARF]

I'm going to put on some, "Diver Down"...
I never had the remaster version...
be back in a bit...

[WARF]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
http://www.cix.co.uk/~rgarrad/b3ta/JesusImpotence.gif

uh u hu hu u huh u
Whatever... i'm be back later...
I'll post fucked up pictures of seshs god...
As soon as I find out who it is...
:D

[WARF]

http://www.dltk-teach.com/books/ctoothfairy.gif

Pray to this sesh!
She will help you... and give you money when you go to sleep!!!

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by WARF
I'm going to put on some, "Diver Down"...
I never had the remaster version...
be back in a bit...


Strong rumor has it that I'm getting the Remastered 6 pack for Christmas...a little elf told me.

w00t!!!

[Hardrock69]

OK so in all these Renaissance paintings we see images of Jesus with a halo.

I would assume all of his body is "Holy", right down to his toenails.

So why do they not ever paint Jesus where Little Jesus has a halo?

Like this....(I am at work, so this will have to do):

http://aycu36.webshots.com/image/8355/2002908278390251639_rs.jpg

[WARF]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Strong rumor has it that I'm getting the Remastered 6 pack for Christmas...a little elf told me.

w00t!!!

I got the first album on vinyl.
And all 6 on cd.
5 of them are remasted.
All I needed is Diver Down to complete it.
Honestly, I think Diver probably needed the remastering the most.
Cathedral and Intruder sound ten times better!

[WARF]

Where the hell is ELVIS?

Did he pack his bags?

Maybe Jesus Christ himself will back me up! :D

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by WARF
Pass me the straw dude.
I didn't read anywhere in the bible that says cocaine is against god!
uh uh u hu hu huh u huh
God created it!
u hu hu h uh uh u

Yeah, listen to what Sesh said in the tobacco thread..."God created tobacco, man made alcohol, who do you trust?"...we can say the same about cocaine.

Never tried it though. There hasn't been too much of it around here. Don't really miss it either.

[Hardrock69]

Here he is:

http://jubal.westnet.com/hyperdiscordia/sacred_heart_of_elvis.small.gif

http://www.geocities.com/presleyterian_church/Crucified3.jpg

[Seshmeister]

http://img479.imageshack.us/img479/9863/thiswasmyclonesecondcomwu4.jpg

[Hardrock69]

LAFF MY FUCKING ASS OFF!!!
:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Hardrock69]

This one is grate: :D

http://www.ftmm.com/b3ta/presents.jpg

[WARF]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
Yeah, listen to what Sesh said in the tobacco thread..."God created tobacco, man made alcohol, who do you trust?"...we can say the same about cocaine.



I trust both! lmao

No dude... I got a 8 year old kid now.
I don't do that anymore.
I stop doin' alot of the crazy shit I did in my past.
Bar fights...etc etc....
I'm tryin' to be a good parent.
Give me your address... I'll mail you some!
uh u hu hu hu
Just kiddin...

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
Yeah, listen to what Sesh said in the tobacco thread..."God created tobacco, man made alcohol, who do you trust?"...we can say the same about cocaine.

Never tried it though. There hasn't been too much of it around here. Don't really miss it either.

Weed dude.

God created weed.

http://usera.imagecave.com/Rammer/pot-smoking_hippy_jesus.jpg

[Hardrock69]

http://www.moday.at/static/gharibo910/images/jesus%20smoke%20weed.web.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/52/132023274_2fd12a1add.jpg

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by WARF
I asked you a simple question...
Why do you mock Jesus Christ?
Do you fear him...
Is it all a joke?
I mean... what pleasure do you get from making fun of others?
Even if you don't believe Jesus was god... he was a real person.
Why do you insult him?
Do you not believe he even existed?
Did his message of LOVE, make you HATE him?
Do you even hate him?
If you were there for the crucifixtion would you have spit on him?

???

Well, there's more evidence of him not existing than there isn't. Is the message of love really originally from Jesus or God?

I don't think this thread is about mocking Jesus either...and against a message of love, even less. It's just about hypocrisy and history vs. christian beliefs.

I don't hate Jesus, but I don't really believe in him either. I believe in the positive attitude and smiling. I believe in power of music. I believe in hard work. I believe in high heels and sexy stockings. I believe in eastern european birds. I believe in drinking milk instead of too much beer. I believe in travelling and experiencing.

I believe that if you find some of those things in the bible, and say "Jesus has it all", you might be wrong, as he's not the one coming up with these ideas, because there's too many bad ideas in the bible as well.

I hate cancer. I hate jealousy, and hypocrisy, and back pain, and killing babies, except in the Misfits song.

Plus, Satan looks cooler, even though his looks in the bible are stolen from Haades etc. (I don't remember how to spell that ancient lord of the underworld in english).

Oh yeah, I larve "Hallelujah" by Deep Purple too! Have you guys heard it?


Originally posted by WARF
What did she do to make you hate her?

Doesn't everyone have the right to post what they want to?

I'm not defending her... i'm just sayin'...

Why do people spit on her, and post pictures of her having sex with monkeys?

She spammed the Forums and it's dahm funny to mock someone as paranoid as she is...

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Weed dude.

God created weed.



yeah yeah I meant to say "weed" but then I got high ;)

[WARF]

So you are Gnostic Golden Awe...

You don't believe... nor do you reject!

So your the type of person to plead "no contest" in a murder case!

uh u hu hu hu

[Seshmeister]

http://www.ftmm.com/b3ta/donkey.jpg

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
yeah yeah I meant to say "weed" but then I got high ;)

The few times I HAVE TO go to mass (X-Mas, weddings, funerals etc...) I do, get high...
It makes everything "more interesting"...
I'm sure Jesus got high, I mean look at him; long granola hair, Berkenstock sandals, hemp tunique and all! :o

[DylanLeeRoth]

Who the fuck is Jesus?

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by DylanLeeRoth
Who the fuck is Jesus?

Physically, he looks a lot like a blue eyed Osama...

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by WARF
So you are Gnostic Golden Awe...

You don't believe... nor do you reject!

So your the type of person to plead "no contest" in a murder case!

uh u hu hu hu

I'm a Sheriff...I'm a superstar, and I'm a Hero...and Dirty Harry is my hero.

I reject Jesus personally but I don't instantly judge a believer...I will discuss with him...and the decide whether I like him/her or not. Well, if it's a girl, I talk about other things :D

Besides, it's always less interesting to ease down a bad girl into a nice one...than it is to bring the devil out of a nice girl!!

Hahaha...

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by blonddgirl777
The few times I HAVE TO go to mass (X-Mas, weddings, funerals etc...) I do, get high...
It makes everything "more interesting"...
I'm sure Jesus got high, I mean look at him; long granola hair, Berkenstock sandals, hemp tunique and all! :o

Yeah Jesus-dudes look like smokers...alternative guys who listen to Pearl Jam, Beck, Pulp or MC5...

Actually I can't smoke too much anymore...I would like to do it on the weekends but there's no good weed really available in Finland...we have a really tight border control. I miss it...especially as I don't drink anymore.

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
... there's no good weed really available in Finland...we have a really tight border control...

Too bad (about the border control)... I could have mail you some...
We have THE BEST! :cool:

[Katydid]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Take also into consideration that there exists NO CONTEMPORARY WRITINGS ABOUT JESUS WHATSOEVER!!!!

Look....the earliest writings of the New Testament date back to about 70 A.D., and it is common knowledge amongst Biblical Scholars that the earliest existing scrolls, parchment etc. were copies, or copies of copies.

It is also widely known that the 4 Gospels were NOT written by John, Luke, Matthew, or Mark. In fact, one or more of the Gospels was written by more than one person.

There are many books, writings, etc. that exist from the period when Jesus was still alive that are NOT in the Bible. Yet not ONE of them mentions Jesus.

The New Testament has so many statements like "His fame was spread far and wide" and "The multitudes flocked to where Jesus was", etc. etc.

Yet there is no mention of Jesus by ANY writers in the Middle East or the Mediterranean who lived and wrote during Jesus's lifetime.

If he was so famous and so well known, why is it that there is no mention of him by anyone who lived during that time period?

So if you want to get down to brass tacks, there is no actual evidence that Jesus ever existed.

There was an ossuary or bone box discovered a few years ago that supposedly had the inscription written on it "James, brother of Jesus".

It created quite a stir, as it would have been the first FACTUAL archaeological evidence that Jesus was a real person.

However it was soon discovered that it was the work of a forger of antiquities, who had been creating forgeries of MANY "ancient" objects and selling them to museums and collectors. He was busted by the Israeli authorities and given a lengthy prison sentence. There was a show on TLC or Discovery Channel recently called "Interpol Investigates", and they devoted an entire show to this guy.

Also, one must take into consideration the fact that there is just as much evidence that Jesus either a) survived the crucifixion, or b) had a substitute on the cross (meaning he survived anyway).

The history of the early Christian Church has been an interest of mine for the past 20 years, and there is much factual stuff I could post right now if I were at home with access to my library.

It is fact that Emperor Constantine saw that the Roman Empire could not survive through force, but if one were to instill a religion in the people of the Empire, the Religion could survive for a VERY long time, as you cannot kill an idea.

Needless to say, the Roman Empire is alive and well, and has a seat on the United Nations, has it's own Bank, and it's own headquarters...in The Vatican.

I may post more stuff later.
But it is a FACT that the whole Christian myth about Jesus, his miracles, being resurrected from the dead, etc. is simply a very old fairy tale.

Seems your religous beliefs are Mythology and fairy tales. Perhaps if you spent as much time and research reading the Bible from front to back; (not the King James version)as you do getting into Star Wars and porn you'd learn what real love is. Perhaps that emptiness in your soul would be filled.

[Guitar Shark]

That's nice and everything, but you should know that all aliases go to Hell.

[Katydid]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
If 80% of the story is just stuff absorbed from myths then why should we believe any of it?

Mithraism, a religion derived from Zoroastrism, was very popular in Rome at the same time that Christianity was spreading. Mithras was believed to be the son of the sun, sent to the earth to rescue humankind. Two centuries before the appearance of Jesus, the myth of Mithras held that Mithras was born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds. Mithras sacrificed himself and the last day had a supper with twelve of his followers. At that supper Mithras invited his followes to eat his body and drink his blood. He was buried in a tomb and after three days rose again. Mithras' festival coincided with the Christian Easter.

This legend dates from at least one century before Jesus. It was absorbed in the Roman dogma. Jesus' attitude often resembles the legendary greek philospher Socrates (eg, the way he refuses to respond to Pilate).

The Egyptian god Osiris was also born on the 25th of December, died on a friday and resurrected after spending three days in the underworld.

The Roman god Dionysus was hailed as `The Saviour of Mankind' and `The Son of God'. Dionysus was born (on December 25) when Zeus visited Persephone. Therefore, his father is God and his mother is a mortal virgin. Announced by a star, he is born in a cowshed and visited by three Magis. He turns water into wine and raises people from the dead. He is followed by twelve apostles. Dionysus' resurrection was a popular myth throughout the Roman empire, although his name was different in each country. The rituals in honor of Dionysus included a meal of bread and wine, symbolizing his body and blood.

An amulet of the 3rd century has been found that depicts a crucified man (unmistakably Jesus) but bears the inscription "Orpheus Bacchus", which was yet another name for Dionysus. The 5th century Egyptian poet Nonnus wrote two long epic poems in Greek, one on the conquest of the world by Dionysus, and the other a verse paraphrase of one of the Christian gospels. Unfortunately, we know little of the Dionysus' faith because in 396 a mob of fanatical Christians destroyed the sanctuary of Eleusis, likely to have been the largest religious center in the world. We only know that the rituals were very popular and lasted several days.

The early Christians revered Dionysus's birthday as Jesus's birthday (Christmas) and the three-day Spring festival of Dionysus roughly coincides with Easter. Jews had their own version of this festival (the "therapeutae") since at least the year 10 (it is reported by Philo of Alexandria), which is 23 years before the crucifixion of Jesus (Armenians still celebrate the birthday of Jesus on january 6).

Jesus lived right at the beginning of the Roman empire. The first emperor, "Augustus", had the title of "saviour of the human race". The legend was that Augustus had been born nine months after his mother was "visited" by the god Apollo. The greatest Roman poet of all time, Virgil, had foretold in 40BC that a king would be born of a virgin. It was false, but it was widely believed by ordinary Romans that, in the year of Augustus' birth, the Roman senate had ordered the murder of all other children.

Pre-existing legends and current events influenced the way the official gospels were selected and doctored. Some scholars have even suggested the entire history of Jesus is a myth, based on pre-existing myths that were assembled by "gnostic" jews.

The official gospels were carefully chosen and edited to reflect a view acceptable to the Roman authorities and audience. For example, the official gospels blamed the Jews for killing Jesus, even if, of course, it was the Romans who killed him (for sedition). The earliest account of the life of Jesus, St Mark's gospel, was written during the Jewish rebellion of 66. It was not a time to claim that Jesus was a Jewish revolutionary. Jesus, in fact, is presented as a victim of the Jews.

Mary was a very young virgin. If she said an angel called Gabriel asked her to have God's son. I have no reason to doubt that. And God gave Joseph a dream telling him not to doubt Mary.

And from the time Jesus was 12 years old he went to the temple and was lost. He told his mother that he was about his father's business.

Jesus was approachable. The Jewish religion of the time; the rich had the front of the temple, and the poor stood outside on the steps and peeped in. They made a show of throwing their large coins in. And prayed loudly.

They killed lambs...Jesus become the lamb. He told them that it was not what went into their mouth that condemned them, but what what came out.

I'll leave it at that...I think this whole thread should be condemned.

[Katydid]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
That's nice and everything, but you should know that all aliases go to Hell.

Oh, long as you are not telling me to "go to Hell."

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by Katydid
I have no reason to doubt that.

Of course you don't. You're paranoid and hallucinating, and have no common sense.

Btw, when did you get lost?





Originally posted by Katydid
I'll leave it at that...I think this whole thread should be condemned.

HA!!! Do it, you're a mod, right?

David Lee Roth

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by Katydid
Oh, long as you are not telling me to "go to Hell."

Hell is good.

[Katydid]

Dear God,

Please forgive all these agnostic hetherns, they know not what they are doing, much less saying.

They are on alcohol, drugs, porn, steroids, and their only religion is rock and roll till they die.

They can tell you all about "Running and Strumming with the Devil," (but mostly they are in here to post drivel). At least it keeps them off the streets endangering society.

Take a look at what they spend their money on...because there is where their love and heart is.

So I'll end by saying, "Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy on their souls."

And I'd like to know who they cry out to when they reach the end of their ropes? And how long will your patience endure?

Your word says, "If they refuse to acknowledge me on earth, I shall refuse to acknowledge them in Heaven."

They don't realize the dangers of breaking the 10 commandments; taking the chance of dying with mortal sins on their souls.

Your son give His life on the cross for our sins; when you could have sent down 10,000 angels.

Father, help us all in our unbelief. Because if we don't stand for something, we will fall for anything.

These favors I ask in Jesus name. AMEN

[Katydid]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
Of course you don't. You're paranoid and hallucinating, and have no common sense.

Btw, when did you get lost?






HA!!! Do it, you're a mod, right?

David Lee Roth

I'm only David Lee Roth every 200th post.

But who is this Dave???

[Katydid]

I think you guys are really closet Christians. That's why you follow me around leaving your little animal droppings in my threads.

Face it, my threads make you feel clean, safe and at peace for awhile; although you don't want to admit it.

You need that peace that only God gives, peace of mind, body, heart and soul.

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by Katydid
Dear God,

Please forgive all these agnostic hetherns, they know not what they are doing, much less saying.

They are on alcohol, drugs, porn, steroids, and their only religion is rock and roll till they die.

They can tell you all about "Running and Strumming with the Devil," (but mostly they are in here to post drivel). At least it keeps them off the streets endangering society.

Take a look at what they spend their money on...because there is where their love and heart is.

So I'll end by saying, "Lord have mercy, Christ have mercy, Lord have mercy on their souls."

And I'd like to know who they cry out to when they reach the end of their ropes? And how long will your patience endure?

Your word says, "If they refuse to acknowledge me on earth, I shall refuse to acknowledge them in Heaven."

They don't realize the dangers of breaking the 10 commandments; taking the chance of dying with mortal sins on their souls.

Your son give His life on the cross for our sins; when you could have sent down 10,000 angels.

Father, help us all in our unbelief. Because if we don't stand for something, we will fall for anything.

These favors I ask in Jesus name. AMEN

Statements like that make religion fanatics sound creepy and arrogant...

Like only the God beleivers know what they are doing and talking about?

If I feel like I need forgiveness from anybody... I will ask for it myself, Thank You!

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by Katydid
... You need that peace that only God gives, peace of mind, body, heart and soul.

Sorry if only God can give YOU peace, peace of mind, body, heart and soul...!!!
But please, don't speak in the name of all humanity!

[Katydid]

Originally posted by blonddgirl777
Statements like that make religion fanatics sound creepy and arrogant...

Like only the God beleivers know what they are doing and talking about?

If I feel like I need forgiveness from anybody... I will ask for it myself, Thank You!

That's your perogitive. Although you should add a disclaimer ... that horny studs only fill your emptiness for a short time.

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by Katydid
That's your perogitive. Although you should add a disclaimer ... that horny studs only fill your emptiness for a short time.

Proves my point;
You are completely disconected from reallity and pretentious and arrogant enough to assume that those "horny studs" DO, fill an emptiness...
Unlike YOU (who lives in "No Place of Interest"), I don't feel empty at all! ;)

Be carefull, people like you give a bad name to the Christian religion!

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Katydid
Seems your religous beliefs are Mythology and fairy tales. Perhaps if you spent as much time and research reading the Bible from front to back; (not the King James version)as you do getting into Star Wars and porn you'd learn what real love is. Perhaps that emptiness in your soul would be filled.


1. I have no "religious" beliefs because I do not belong to any religion. I base my knowledge on factual history. You don't like it? Tough shit.

2. You who worship The Pope are telling me not to read the King James Version of the Bible? That is what Catholicism is based on!
Shouldn't you be telling people they SHOULD read the KJV? What would the higher ups in the Church have to say, if they knew that you are trying to turn people AWAY from the doctrine of the Church?
Seems to me you need to be ex-communicated!

:rolleyes:

3. I know what real love is. The only love you have is of reading the porn posts in Hitchworld. Hypocrite.

4. There is no emptiness in my soul. Don't try to blame your problems on me. It is not my fault your own family can't stand you. And if they can't, it is a sure bet nobody else can either.


Originally posted by Katydid

Mary was a very young virgin.

It was kind of impossible for her to be virgin, dontcha think? Jesus's brother James was born before he was. James was Jesus's OLDER BROTHER.

So like, did the Angel Gabriel appear late one night in February or March of that year, and sew her pussy shut with some Holy God-thread? And so did God screw her at just the perfect moment that Jesus could be born on December 25th?

Or did God fuck her in the ass, so that the Catholic Church could still claim Jesus was "born of a virgin" centuries later??

Not only that, Acts 13:22 and 13:23 tell us that Jesus was "of David's seed".

Well guess what? Mary was not descended from David. Joseph was!

Ok so if Joseph did not fuck Mary, then the book of Acts is a LIE!

IF what you say is true, and Jesus was born because God screwed Mary, then Jesus could not have been "of David's seed".

And please explain how a woman can remain a "virgin" after having two children?

Oops, I am sorry....you do not believe in anything that might be factual or logical.
My bad.


Originally posted by Katydid
If she said an angel called Gabriel asked her to have God's son. I have no reason to doubt that.

Then you should have no reason to doubt God broke his own Commandment: "Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery".



Originally posted by Katydid
And God gave Joseph a dream telling him not to doubt Mary.

Hey, if you were some guy living in Jerusaleum 2,000 years ago, and an Angel Of The Lord told you to believe whatever Mary told you as to how she got pregnant, wouldn't you do what he said? Hey, if Gabriel walked into Joesph's room in the middle of the night and told him God had just fucked his wife, what in the hell do you think Joseph could do about it? Like, could he grab a sword and run in there and kill God for having fucked his wife? There were no shotguns at that period of time....


Originally posted by Katydid
And from the time Jesus was 12 years old he went to the temple and was lost.

Oh...he once was lost but now he's found? That kinda thing?
:rolleyes:


Originally posted by Katydid
He told his mother that he was about his father's business.

So what? That is irrelevant.


Originally posted by Katydid
Jesus was approachable.


Oh...yeah...he was....right....

Chapter and verse! What is the Chapter and verse!? Either you go by the doctrine of the Catholic Church, or you will be cast OUT!! :mad:



Originally posted by Katydid
The Jewish religion of the time;

Yes, there was a Jewish religion at that time. How perceptive of you.



Originally posted by Katydid
the rich had the front of the temple, and the poor stood outside on the steps and peeped in. They made a show of throwing their large coins in. And prayed loudly.


Like this? "OH LORD WE BESEECH THEE! LET THE SERVANT OF DARKNESS KATY DANIELS ROTH BE BANISHED FROM THIS HOLY TEMPLE OF ROCK FOR FOREVER AND EVER AMEN!!!"


Originally posted by Katydid
They killed lambs...Jesus become the lamb.

So Jesus was able to have his Dad God transform him into an animal? :eek:



Originally posted by Katydid
He told them that it was not what went into their mouth that condemned them, but what what came out.

So he was examining their shit? Gee Katy, you are fucking blasphemous to the extreme!!!



Originally posted by Katydid
I'll leave it at that...I think this whole thread should be condemned.


What you think is irrelevant.

Go hang out on a Christian website.

Some place that has nothing to do with David Lee Roth.

You have nothing to do with David Lee Roth.

So why in the fuck are you even here?

It is simple. You are a miserable old wretch, who loves the fact we post porn on this site. There are people here that you WISH you could be like. INTERESTING people who HAVE A LIFE!

You so desperately want to be interesting, or funny, or attractive, but guess what? You are NONE OF THE ABOVE!

You are not even interesting enough to bore people!

Satan is calling you. You KNOW you find his coch irresistable......you MUST go to him....it is your DESTINY.....


http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=794363

[Hardrock69]

By the way, I find it interesting that even though Katypig claims that I am some sort of blasphemer, that I am going to go to hell, etc., she spends hours searching through my old posts just so she could quote me.
:)

She secretly wants to such my coch.

:D

Katy, you can stop masturbating now. I will never allow you to even look at it. No, stop begging me.
I realize that the thought of my huge Agnostic Coch excites you drastically, and makes you all wet, but it is just a delusional fantasy that you will never be able to fulfill.

:rolleyes:

[Seshmeister]

Someone else is definitely posting as Katydid these days, too many big words for that stupid old woman.

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Someone else is definitely posting as Katydid these days, too many big words for that stupid old woman.

Those Christian fanatics are the worst!
Just don't make them mad...

[BadAxe]

if jesus has a name then what's god's name....
do some research and you'll know.

[Seshmeister]

Is this a joke or something?

[Hardrock69]

Of course. There are only a multitude of names for God.

Perhaps this is his God:

http://us.movies1.yimg.com/movies.yahoo.com/images/hv/photo/movie_pix/paramount_pictures/forrest_gump/tom_hanks/gump2.jpg

[WARF]

Originally posted by blonddgirl777
Statements like that make religion fanatics sound creepy and arrogant...



I'm not a fanatic, as a matter of fact... I think everyone is going to heaven. Christians, catholics, jews etc etc... they will all be allowed in because Jesus died for our sins and through the prayers of those who believe!

Katydid, I do think you are scaring some people.
It's not your job to condemn those...
And you don't have the right to say who is going to heaven or hell.
God is the judge!

[WARF]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Someone else is definitely posting as Katydid these days, too many big words for that stupid old woman.

Warfydid ??

uh u hu hu hu huh

This whole conversation is gettin' retarded.

In closing...
You either have faith or you do not...
Some people like Van Hagar some like Van Halen...
Some people like margarine... some like butter...
Whatever...
I believe Jesus is lord...
Some do not...
I don't sit around and preach to people and condemn them.
I show them that he is real through my actions as a Christian.
If people don't wanna believe then that is their personal choice.
-

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by WARF
I'm not a fanatic, as a matter of fact... I think everyone is going to heaven. Christians, catholics, jews etc etc... they will all be allowed in because Jesus died for our sins and through the prayers of those who believe!

Katydid, I do think you are scaring some people.
It's not your job to condemn those...
And you don't have the right to say who is going to heaven or hell.
God is the judge!

Dude she is irrational. No matter what you post, no matter what you say, she will simply not shut up.

Her own son came on here posting about how he could not convince her to stop posting here.

She likes to look at the porn that gets posted here. She likes to look around in Hitchworld for hours. It has been documented.

She talks a lot of papist claptrap, but is a complete hypocrite. Her own family cannot stand to be around her.

I can't say I blame them lol.


Keep the faith baby!
:cool:

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by WARF
I'm not a fanatic, as a matter of fact... I think everyone is going to heaven.

Katydid, I do think you are scaring some people.
It's not your job to condemn those...
And you don't have the right to say who is going to heaven or hell.
God is the judge!

You should read yourself;

"... as a matter of fact... I think everyone is going to heaven..."

"And you don't have the right to say who is going to heaven or hell.
God is the judge!

YOU and Kathydid are the ones judging every non-beleivers... SHE is the one asking for our forgiveness when she sould just take care of herself...

Scaring people... by what? Not beleiving in the same things YOU do?

It's Christian's constant trying to convert, that is harrassing... and it has been for centuries...

"Live and let live", "Accept that others don't share your opinions" should have been part of the commendments!

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Dude she is irrational. No matter what you post, no matter what you say, she will simply not shut up.

Her own son came on here posting about how he could not convince her to stop posting here.

She likes to look at the porn that gets posted here. She likes to look around in Hitchworld for hours. It has been documented.

She talks a lot of papist claptrap, but is a complete hypocrite. Her own family cannot stand to be around her.

I can't say I blame them lol.


Keep the faith baby!
:cool:

Weird... but this is her own personnal problem (family and stuff)...
I still think that everyone has the right to post their opinions as they wish,

BUT;

By all means, respect other's personnal beleifs and don't try to constantly push your's like like it's the only way to go!
That's arrogant and closed minded!

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by WARF
... I don't sit around and preach to people and condemn them.
I show them that he is real through my actions as a Christian.
If people don't wanna believe then that is their personal choice.
-

Sorry... I totally missed this post...
Your previous one sounded a lot like a preacher's... like Kathydid's...

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by WARF
... Katydid, I do think you are scaring some people...

Does this mean I will get exorcised??? :eek: :uck:

[WARF]

Originally posted by blonddgirl777
You should read yourself;

"... as a matter of fact... I think everyone is going to heaven..."

"And you don't have the right to say who is going to heaven or hell.
God is the judge!

YOU and Kathydid are the ones judging every non-beleivers... SHE is the one asking for our forgiveness when she sould just take care of herself...

Scaring people... by what? Not beleiving in the same things YOU do?

It's Christian's constant trying to convert, that is harrassing... and it has been for centuries...

"Live and let live", "Accept that others don't share your opinions" should have been part of the commendments!

Did you just read my post?
How many times do I have to say that I am not judging anyone.
But now you are judging me.
I live by the teachings of the gospel. (or atleast try to.. nobody is perfect.)
I tell people if they ask me...
It's not my job to convert... and that's why I am against organized religion! Why should I stand at the corner on a sidewalk and pass out flyers that people will throw away? Why should I listen to people who smile at the face of church... and turn down those in need?

"Live and let live"? lol
Maybe a woman should have helped write the bible.

[WARF]

Originally posted by blonddgirl777
Sorry... I totally missed this post...
Your previous one sounded a lot like a preacher's... like Kathydid's...

I'm Warfydid baby!!!

uuh u u hu u hu h

You gotta understand from katydid's perspective she is tryin' to help you... as twisted as you think it sounds...
I've been to every church... "born again" christians.... catholic... lutherian... and I decided that the best way to serve god is to have my own personal faith. I found it alot easier for people to come to Christ by witnessing my sincere actions rather than jam a bible down there throat!

[WARF]

Originally posted by blonddgirl777
Does this mean I will get exorcised??? :eek: :uck:

I'm sure flappo has a picture around of katydid's head spinnin' around and spittin' green vomit. lol

Anyways, I don't know why katydid is made out to be the anti-christ... when those who oppose her are making photoshop pics of dogs screwin' her...

Yet, she is the one sick and twisted?

btw... Seshmeister still hasn't answered my question.

[WARF]

Is blondgirl Uma Thurman by the way?

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by WARF
So who am I to say they are going to hell?
However, they only way to get into heaven is through the lord Jesus!

You said one thing (who are you to tell Muslims they are going to hell).

Then you turned right around in the very next sentence and said that Muslims are going to hell (they do not 'worship' Jesus, therefore they are not going to heaven, i.e. they are going to hell).

So? Which is it? If you say they are going to hell, you cannot say you have not said it! ;) Or vice-versa! :D


Originally posted by WARF
Why do people post pictures of her being anally raped by donkey...
Just for talking about Jesus Christ in the dump?

A donkey? Where is this! I wanna add it to my collection!
:D



Originally posted by WARF
I'm not defending her... i'm just sayin'...

Why do people spit on her, and post pictures of her having sex with monkeys?

Monkeys? Where is this! I wanna add it to my collection!
:D


And yes, ALL roads DO lead to Rome.

This statement means that everyone who has a spiritual belief that they adhere to, which they believe helps them grow spiritually, will derive fulfillment no matter who or what they worship in order to achieve spiritual satisfaction.

Rome being "spiritual satisfaction".

The roads being "The Christian Road", "The Moron Road", "The Muslim Road", "The Holy Tricycle Of Antioch Road".

Substitute the word 'path' for 'road' if it makes it easier to understand.

It matters not HOW spiritual enlightenment is achieved as long as your path does not involve kiddie-diddling, or trampling on the rights or beliefs of others (like Fred Phelps the fucking asshole).

The path each person takes is different.

But the goal is the same.

Rome.

Spiritual fulfilment.

Got it?
:cool:

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by blonddgirl777
Weird... but this is her own personnal problem (family and stuff)...
I still think that everyone has the right to post their opinions as they wish,

BUT;

By all means, respect other's personnal beleifs and don't try to constantly push your's like like it's the only way to go!
That's arrogant and closed minded!

I agree.
:cool:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by WARF
Warfydid ??

uh u hu hu hu huh

This whole conversation is gettin' retarded.

In closing...
You either have faith or you do not...
Some people like Van Hagar some like Van Halen...
Some people like margarine... some like butter...
Whatever...
I believe Jesus is lord...
Some do not...

It's exactly not like that.

The whole rest of this thread shows how believing in the Jesus story is not subjective because it's factually bullshit.

At best it's like saying some people believe Sammy Hagar was abducted by aliens, I do not.

It's not a matter of taste or preference, it's a matter of looking at the likelyhood of something being true and then coming to a decision.

[Golden AWe]

How is it possible to burn in hell if you don't have a physical body and brains to register the pain?

[Soul Reaper]

What I don't understand is how Christians believe God is perfect, but yet God seems partisan and morally arbitary.....

those are flaws, more than anything.....unless perfection is to be a favoritist....

in the book of Joshua, God helps the Israelites kill the Amorites....he seems very violent for a supposedly benevolent god.....God seems to favour the Israelites above everyone in the Old Testament, meaning the rest of his creation are not worthy of his love....

Christianity has a lot of contradictions.....as with any religion, I suppose....

[FORD]

Originally posted by BadAxe
if jesus has a name then what's god's name....
do some research and you'll know.

Which name do you want?

In the original Hebrew, Genesis 1:1 says that Elohim created the earth. But only the Mormons seem to use this name.

Other points in the Old Testament use the letters YHWH which presumably comes from the same Hebrew tradition which today spells out "G-d" because the Jews believe it's wrong to actually write God's name.

YHWH became Yahweh, and Yahweh became Jehova. But only the Witnesses seem to be using that one anymore.

Of course then there's the Arabic word, "Allah". Common sense would see the similarities between "Elohim" and "Allah", yet most fundagelicals claim that Muslims pray to a "false god" while ignoring the fact that Middle Eastern Christians and even some Arabic Jews (who speak Arabic) pray to Allah.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the planet, you have the Native Americans who refer to the creator as "Tunkasila" (meaning "Grandfather") or "Wakan Tanka" ("Great Spirit")

So which one of God's names were you referring to, exactly?

[WARF]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
You said one thing (who are you to tell Muslims they are going to hell).

Then you turned right around in the very next sentence and said that Muslims are going to hell (they do not 'worship' Jesus, therefore they are not going to heaven, i.e. they are going to hell).


Got it?
:cool:

Once again you misread me.
This what I believe...

The only way you can go to heaven is through Jesus Christ.
However, since God is the father... and Jesus is the son... and whoever accepts this will be given a spirit... and is no longer person of the earth... but they become a child of god.

Now since I am a child of god... I become one with Jesus as a brother... and I have the power alongside Jesus to FORGIVE those for their sins... so even though you do not believe in the truth... through our prayer even those who don't believe... will be admitted to heaven.

So basically... I am saying my religion is right...
But I am also sayin' through our christian love...
And since god loves us unconditionally...
All people will go to heaven...
Unless god decides otherwise... (ie- Adolph hitler, Osama Bin Laden.. Judas... etc etc etc)

[WARF]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
It's exactly not like that.

The whole rest of this thread shows how believing in the Jesus story is not subjective because it's factually bullshit.

At best it's like saying some people believe Sammy Hagar was abducted by aliens, I do not.

It's not a matter of taste or preference, it's a matter of looking at the likelyhood of something being true and then coming to a decision.

Okay sesh, and i'm not trying to sound confrontational.
Then where do you believe you will go?
What's the point of life without faith?
Faith has led me to wait 21 years for a Van Halen reunion.
You must believe something... even if it differs from my opinion.

[Golden AWe]

What if Hitler was mentally ill?

[WARF]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
How is it possible to burn in hell if you don't have a physical body and brains to register the pain?

That's a good question.. atleast you are interested.

Should you self worship in Scientology like Tom Cruise?
Do you think you will be re-incarnated?
How do you believe if there is no proof?
Do we just rot in a corpse?
If that is the case... I want a 8 ball of cocaine... a few strippers by my side!!
Maybe it's the Kaballah... and you will come back as Madonna's baby!!
I believe none of the above?
What do you believe?

[Katydid]

Years after Christ's death on the cross, Christians were afraid to practice their religion openly. They met in catacombs, to keep from meeting the same fate. They handed down by word of mouth through the disciples and thru their writings. Of course anyone seeing what happened would tell in in their own individual way; In the Bible it has two books of some...the Hebrew translation and some other translation

Paul came later.

Hidden Meanings in "The 12 Days of Christmas."

It's origins are not entirely clear, but some people think it dates from 16th century England, when Catholics were prohibited from practicing their faith openly. So many years after Christ's birth and Christians were still afraid. The carol was an underground memory device for teaching children terms of the faith.

On the first day of Christmas, my true love gave to me...the carol begins with a reference to God the Father, the great Giver of all good gifts.

A partridge in a pear tree represents Jesus on the cross. The partridge is one of a number of birds that will feign a broken wing to lure predators away from defenseless young -- a reminder of Jesus' sacrifical love for us.

Two turtle doves are the Old and New Testaments of the Bible.

Three French hens symbolize the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, as well as faith, hope and charity.

Four calling birds: The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

Five golden rings: The crucifixion wounds of Christ; also, the PEntateuch, the first five books of the Old Testament (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy).

Six geese a-laying: The six days of creation (Genesis 1:1-31).

Seven swans a-swimming: The sacraments, gifts of the Holy spirit (Catechism, 1831; Isaiah 11:1-2), and works of mercy (Catechism, 2447)

Eight maids a-milking: The eight beatitudes from Jesus' Sermon on the Mount (Mattherw 5:3-10).

Nine ladies dancing: The fruits of the Holy Spirit listed in Galatians 5:22-23; love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; also the nine ranks of ange;s: Angels, Archangels, Thrones, Dominations, Virtues, Principalities, Powers, Cherubim, and Seraphim.

Ten lords a-lleaping: The 10 Commandments (Exodus20: 1-17; Catechism, 2083-2557).

Eleven Pipers piping: The eleven faithful apostles (Acts 1:13).

Twelve drummers drumming: The 12 truths of the Apostles' Creed (Catechism, 198-1065); also, the traditional number of the fruits of the Spirit (based on another translation of Galatians 5:22-23; Catechism, 1832).

Julie Walters

[WARF]

Originally posted by Soul Reaper
What I don't understand is how Christians believe God is perfect, but yet God seems partisan and morally arbitary.....


Christianity has a lot of contradictions.....as with any religion, I suppose....

That's why people don't believe in Christianity... because it is half myth... and half the truth.... But you need to seek and find out what is true!! Who is to say that parts weren't re-written? I believe in the gospel cuz it was written by four different authors and they all match up... plus the message of Jesus contridicts the message of god... and it makes god seem like he hates us... but if you read John, Matthew etc etc... there is a strong message of love... and I believe that message is flawless. So I encourage anyone to find the answer... even if it's not Christianity. Just prove to me that I am wrong... and I will listen.

[WARF]

What's the point of waking up in the morning, if there is no life after death?

Sesh, Awe must believe something.

Am I close minded for believing In God?
Or is my mind finally opened... for being closed at one time?
Where are your dead friends and relatives sesh?
Seriously...

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by WARF
... "Live and let live"? lol
Maybe a woman should have helped write the bible.

Hoooo.... you DO NOT, want to open that can of worms with me... :o

One of the reasons I don't agree with the Christian religion (especially, the Roman Catholic I was raised in), is because the bible was written strictly my men and FOR men...

The place of women is to be the sinner who "tricked" Adam into getting horny and "hit it" or to be a prostitute...
The only woman who is worshiped is the immaculate virgin who didn't have to have sex in order to procreate (B.S.)...

A woman will never reach a higher level than to be a poor nun who can't get married and have children.
Like we're not good enough for becoming a priest, a bishop, a pope...

The pope is still to this day, opposed to contraception and abortion wich are a big part of women's liberation...
He is totally against progress and refuses to live in the modern world (that will go on, with or without his aproval anyway)...
From his golden Vatican, he is keeping his head in the sand and doesn't care to solve real problems...

YES... the bible should have been written by a woman!

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by WARF
... Where are your dead friends and relatives sesh?...

I beleive that the deads are wherever THEY want to be...
And no-one on this earth knows exactly where it is...

[FORD]

Originally posted by blonddgirl777
You DO NOT, want to open that can of worms with me...

One of the reasons I don't agree with the Christian religion (especially, the Roman Catholic I was raised in), is because the bible was written my men and FOR men...

It was written by men because the patriarchal nature of Hebrew society wouldn't have permitted anything else. But on the other hand, the Catholic church tells you to pray to Jesus' Mom, don't they?

I'd say that's a fairly prominent role in the religious hierarchy. And they have an assortment of female Saints as well.

The Bible also has other women in key roles. Mary's cousin Elizabeth was chosen to bring John the Baptist into the world, and he helped prepare the people for the coming of Christ. Her husband had literally nothing to say in the matter.

Ruth and Esther had books in the Old Testament named after them. That's saying a lot for the otherwise patriarchal spin on the Bible.


[quote]A woman will never reach a higher level than to be a poor nun who can't get married and have children.
Like we're not good enough for becoming a priest, a bishop, a pope...

The pope is still to this day, opposed to contraception and abortion wich are a big part of women's liberation...
He is totally against progress and refuses to live in the modern world (that will go on, with or without his aproval anyway)...
From his golden Vatican, he is keeping his head in the sand and doesn't care to solve real problems...



The Catholic Church is a HUGE body of people. If they start to lose a lot of members due to outdated policies, they might reconsider (as they did with Vatican II ) though admittedly not likely with an ex-Hitler Youth current Opud Dei (in other words STILL a Nazi) Pope in charge.

Old JP was practically "liberal" compared to Bennie Ratzinger.

[blonddgirl777]

"It was written by men because the patriarchal nature of Hebrew society wouldn't have permitted anything else. But on the other hand, the Catholic church tells you to pray to Jesus' Mom, don't they?

I'd say that's a fairly prominent role in the religious hierarchy. And they have an assortment of female Saints as well.

The Bible also has other women in key roles. Mary's cousin Elizabeth was chosen to bring John the Baptist into the world, and he helped prepare the people for the coming of Christ. Her husband had literally nothing to say in the matter.

Ruth and Esther had books in the Old Testament named after them. That's saying a lot for the otherwise patriarchal spin on the Bible."





Sorry... that's not good enough for me!
"Sainte this, Sainte that and the virgin Marie"... all fairy tales...
They all had to suffer or make a miracle happen or something... :rolleyes:

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by FORD
The Catholic Church is a HUGE body of people. If they start to lose a lot of members due to outdated policies, they might reconsider (as they did with Vatican II ) though admittedly not likely with an ex-Hitler Youth current Opud Dei (in other words STILL a Nazi) Pope in charge.

Old JP was practically "liberal" compared to Bennie Ratzinger.

Te popes all of them , (eaven one more liberal than the others) are non-sens to me...

The vatican sould keep on making money with visitors (it is a beautiful sight) but the pope should go!

[Katydid]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Because Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus. It is a pagan holiday dedicated to spending money!

The Jesus story is just window-dressing tacked onto the pagan winter solstice celebrations by the Catholic Church.

Oh, and Sesh, there were originally over 30 gospels.

I saw a show on the recently uncovered Gospel Of Judas.

Some so-called expert said it was a work of fiction.

Only problem? It is just as much a work of fiction as any of the other gospels, including the 4 in the New Testament.

Inversely, it is just as real as Matthew, Mark, Luke & John.

Those are just names tacked onto each gospel, by the way. Nobody actually knows who wrote them. Or when they were actually written.

Though most experts say the earliest of the 4 was written around 60 A.D., 27 years after the theoretical crucifixion.

There exists nothing that was written while Jesus was alive.

Everything in existence came out years or decades after his death.

Judas took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the temple. Then went and hung himself. So the money was used for Plotters Field; where the poor and criminals were buried.

[Jérôme Frenchise]

I stopped believing when I turned 14. I can't figure out that we could have been intentionally thrown into this nonsense by a triad of holy joes, really... That's just insane.

Pantheism is the thesis I find most satisfying. "God" is Nature. Everything in total is "God". Everything in the universe, matter and physical laws, energy, categories, the whole totality is "God".
All right, it just ruins any ethic, as everything happens under "God's" control, but then human laws are part of "His" determined plan, so anything we condemn may be condemned by our own laws, but we are parts of "God", parts of the Totality, so that human laws are attributes of "God". A great implication IMO is that gives mankind the responsibility of all their deeds, and frees them from relying on some hypothetical referee. What an improvement it would be if all mankind lived their lives for what it is: finite, with the pursuit of an always better spirit to be kept going - making children, and transmitting that spirit, free from religious alienation, which has chained us for way too long...
Well, then I can hear the following objection: who/what created all that matter in the universe, and all the laws that governs it?
Here I say, it's a purely human mistake to be unable to conceive anything that's infinite. Yet...
Take the big-bang theories, the last one, as it seems that it could well be a cyclical phenomenon - expansion/retractation/expansion/retractation, etc. -, if we consider it as the actual explanation of the birth/rebirth of the universe, we just cannot help wondering "who" or "what" created all that concentrated matter and energy and potential laws and implications, because our human minds and bodies are finite, so we have to figure out a beginning and an end... We can't help thinking that way. However, that impossibility for us to conceive this universe as endless in time, matter and energy doesn't mean it's effectively impossible. "Permanent creation", as Leibniz called it, if I remember well. Spinoza, in "The Ethic", built the pantheist theory that you just can't object to. It's pretty tough to read, especially in French, but it's worth the effort. That man theoretically liberated mankind from religious servitude, mainly with logic.

Anything that happens in Nature happens under "God", or better: in "God", as "God" is Nature. Did that make Spinoza a mischiever? Not at all: he led an honest man's life; but for bringing down religion so minutely on the side, the clergy wrote "Here lies Spinoza. Spit on his grave." where he was buried in The Hague...

Our condition is such that we will never access Truth. And among other big ones that have been explained here, the big problem with Jesus's story, and most religions (except Native Apericans's like the Sioux's, which is very close to pantheism in many ways), is it has prevented Men from living like human beings for much too long, making them believe there is something else to hope for than their own goddamn fucking lives. :cool:

[Katydid]

Originally posted by blonddgirl777
Proves my point;
You are completely disconected from reallity and pretentious and arrogant enough to assume that those "horny studs" DO, fill an emptiness...
Unlike YOU (who lives in "No Place of Interest"), I don't feel empty at all! ;)

Be carefull, people like you give a bad name to the Christian religion!

Be glad your parents took you to church. Stop being a half assed Catholic. Rebellion toward parents went out with James Dean.

Stop over compensating by fighting the Catholic School Girl image.

[Last_Child]

Hmm.. I've never went to church.. Where the fuck does that leave me?

I've never been a believer myself, and will never be.

[ALinChainz]

Katy,

Like you know anything about being a Catholic.

How many has ALLY schooled you on everything about Catholicism.

You're not even Catholic, you're a Baptist you ignorant misguided fossil.

Pipe down, pump off, and fly back to your cave you old bat.

[Golden AWe]

Originally posted by WARF
What's the point of waking up in the morning, if there is no life after death?

Sesh, Awe must believe something.

Am I close minded for believing In God?
Or is my mind finally opened... for being closed at one time?
Where are your dead friends and relatives sesh?
Seriously...

There's point in working a few months, or a year more and then moving abroad. Maybe Netherlands or Hungary.

I told you I believe in the positive attitude and smiling. I believe in power of music. I believe in hard work. I believe in high heels and sexy stockings. I believe in eastern european birds. I believe in drinking milk instead of too much beer. I believe in travelling and experiencing. (copy/pasted that)

If I said I believe in a thing called love (and sex), would you say it's a god's creation?

I'd say it's one of the reasons fishes and frogs came out of the water. They wanted a better place to fuck their partner and millions of years later those frogs had turned into apes and humans etc.

[Katydid]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
By the way, I find it interesting that even though Katypig claims that I am some sort of blasphemer, that I am going to go to hell, etc., she spends hours searching through my old posts just so she could quote me.
:)

She secretly wants to such my coch.

:D

Katy, you can stop masturbating now. I will never allow you to even look at it. No, stop begging me.
I realize that the thought of my huge Agnostic Coch excites you drastically, and makes you all wet, but it is just a delusional fantasy that you will never be able to fulfill.

:rolleyes:

Your low self esteem is evident. Everything relates to your coch.

I bet you live back in the woods in your mama and daddy's basement.

You play your music too loud, rolling down the window while you cruise. You can hear the thump coming three miles away.

You smoke your dope and look at porn. Wonder what's the point to life? Your intellectual parents both worked and didn't give a rat's ass about what you did.

My advice??? Go to Midnight Mass on Christmas Eve, listen to the carols and go home feeling like a new man.

Start the New Year with a new life.

[Jérôme Frenchise]

I've been to church way too many times, not to mention the 12 years I spent in a religious school. At least it gave me plenty of arguments for NOT believing.


Originally posted by Last_Child
Hmm.. I've never went to church.. Where the fuck does that leave me?


Sometimes it feels great to think you'll just rot - or burn. Just "the end". :cool:

The problem is it will never feel great as far as your wife, children, family and friends are concerned... :(

[Katydid]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
There's point in working a few months, or a year more and then moving abroad. Maybe Netherlands or Hungary.

I told you I believe in the positive attitude and smiling. I believe in power of music. I believe in hard work. I believe in high heels and sexy stockings. I believe in eastern european birds. I believe in drinking milk instead of too much beer. I believe in travelling and experiencing. (copy/pasted that)

If I said I believe in a thing called love (and sex), would you say it's a god's creation?

I'd say it's one of the reasons fishes and frogs came out of the water. They wanted a better place to fuck their partner and millions of years later those frogs had turned into apes and humans etc.

It's worse than I thought. You are cross dressing?

I hate to hear people talking about beastality.

[Golden AWe]

I smell someone using her password.

Katy Roth

[Katydid]

Originally posted by Jérôme Frenchise
I've been to church way too many times, not to mention the 12 years I spent in a religious school. At least it gave me plenty of arguments for NOT believing.



Sometimes it feels great to think you'll just rot - or burn. Just "the end". :cool:

The problem is it will never feel great as far as your wife, children, family and friends are concerned... :(

You don't believe that, you are just succumbing to peer pressure. Afraid someone will think less of you, because your parents gave a damn.

People who think rot, burn, etc. aren't realistic. At Medjagore Mother Mary appeared to some kids, she showed them HELL...It was fire, pain, etc. The sun also whirled and came like it was going to crash to the earth in front of the townspeople. You can look it up and read it for yourself. It was in Portugal. Those kids wound up going to live in the Vatican. The least one died not long ago. Mother Mary gave them prophesys that she did not want revealed until a specific time...the Third Prophecy if you will. The ones they could reveal was that prayers for Russia should be said at every mass, so they could be converted from Communism. The Catholic Churches all over the world did remember Russia in prayers at every mass for years, until Communism fell. Before she died, she revealed the last prophesy to Pope John Paul I think.

[Katydid]

Originally posted by Golden AWe
I smell someone using her password.

Katy Roth

I forget to log out and come back a couple days later; DRRN does too.

[Jérôme Frenchise]

Originally posted by Katydid
Before she died, she revealed the last prophesy to Pope John Paul I think.

Too bad he was already completely gaga. :p

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by Katydid
Be glad your parents took you to church. Stop being a half assed Catholic. Rebellion toward parents went out with James Dean.

Stop over compensating by fighting the Catholic School Girl image.


Now I've had enough with your ignorance and arrogance...
I gave you "a chance" although I could read that almost everybody hates you here.
I eaven pointed out the fact that your personnal problems (with your son and family) should be left alone...

But you are looking for constant trouble!

Shut the fuck up, stop preaching and leave me alone!
Stop pretending that you know my personal life (and my parents) so well and that I need your guidance and mind your own business, when it comes to me!

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by Katydid
... I hate to hear people talking about beastality.

And I hate beasts talking about people...

[Jérôme Frenchise]

Originally posted by Katydid
I hate to hear people talking about beastality.

http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/8941/bestialitysd1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

[Jérôme Frenchise]

Originally posted by blonddgirl777
And I hate beasts talking about people...

Hi BG! Always in great shape as I can see. ;)

[Katydid]

Originally posted by ALinChainz
Katy,

Like you know anything about being a Catholic.

How many has ALLY schooled you on everything about Catholicism.

You're not even Catholic, you're a Baptist you ignorant misguided fossil.

Pipe down, pump off, and fly back to your cave you old bat.



I went to a Freewill Baptist Church growing up. Then when I met my husband I took Catholic Instructions from the Baltimore Cathecism. I had been baptised, but I was baptised again and was confirmed Catholic. We raised our family Catholic. I have never regretted my decision.

The minute I went into a Catholic Church I felt such peace. The crowd taking part in each mass. The beautiful prayers, the confession to relieve yourself of your sins, the whole bit. I've never lost my sense of awe and wonder. There is no other feeling in the world that can compare with God's peace.

I do respect Ally Kat's Catholic raising. And I have gone to her before and asked things I was not clear on.

I am proud of ALinChainz also for taking coats, toys, clothes, etc to the poor and being a part of his church.

I respect others religion. Like Jesus told the disciples..." If they are not against us, they are for us." (some were baptising and preaching the same as the disciples).

My mama rest her soul took me to church every time the doors opened. She was Nazarene Holiness, but went to the Freewill Baptist Church, never converting. I remember once a visiting preacher putting us through classes (7 Day Adventist). She wouldn't convert, so he wrote her a letter saying, "I'm so sorry you are dangling on Satan's side."

Daddy on the other hand never went to church. He would go to revivals and peep in the window while he smoked his Prince Albert hand rolled cigarette. (this was after the women got after him on the back row and tried to coerce him to "get saved.") I looked out at him, and he gave me the "shhh" sign. Once he was arrested for running his horse by a "brush arbor" meeting and shooting his pistols off when they were first married.

Although Daddy was very charitable. He gave a neighboring family a place to live when they started out. They had six kids. He'd buy them clothes, shoes, take them food. He'd even buy possums, squirrels, rabbits, coons, etc. from them and boil them himself and eat them. The man would cut wood for us and he'd buy it.

A new neighbor was a Church of Christ preacher, Daddy liked him. He got saved before he died, and I don't know if he was baptised or not.

But I dreamed for a long time of Daddy, it was like he and I were running and hiding from something...maybe he was in Purgatory. I prayed and prayed for him. Then one night I dreamed we were at the first farm we ever lived at. We had a glider swing. We were sitting on it, talking. Then he left me and went into a bright white light in the sky radiating around a being in white clothes. I knew then, he was at peace and I was too.

Mama told me of a light coming down around them one night. They would walk and talk up and down the road and yard until it was cool enought to go inside. Daddy's heart would hurt him and he'd thump his chest and try to breathe.

He also came to me in a dream years later. He looked so healthy. Had on a red plaid shirt and his overalls. He told me, "This is gonna hurt your mama." I thought he was talking about us getting ready to move from OK to NC. I hugged him, and he said he had to go. I asked where he was going? He said he was going "Where the Owls come from." (Old people acquainted death with Owls hooting). Anyway Mama's mom died, that night. I had to go tell her. Everytime I got to sleeping good that night, it was like someone patting me on the shoulder and like a breath of air. I noted the time the two times it happened. Grannie was having a bad spell and they lost her those two times the last one she didn't come back.

There have been many times since I was a young child that in dreams I realize now, in retrospect that I was seeing natural disasters, and was helping people I did not know.

I was telling my son Kirk about dreaming about a huge amount of mud and I was pulling people out of the mud. Their clothes would come off them in my hand, and I'd fight to keep a hold on them. Their clothes were unusual looking. I was praying for the people and weeping. I went on computer to check my e mail and "tusumni" caught my eye. Yahoo News was showing people being pulled out of the mud and their clothes would pull off, and the clothes looked like my dream. I was seeing my dream.

A yellow airplane going down. Me and the "Big Man" a being of great light whom I've dreamed about all my life...He showed me how to cup my hands on top and bottom and catch it and ease it down into a body of water. I talked about the dream to my husband, kids, anyone who would listen. Years later, watching "Natural Disasters" at my home health patient's house I saw a recreation of my dream. It was in Wales, and had Army police on it. It went completely under, but everyone survived. They said it was like they were falling fast, then they floated down softly and submerged.

Sorry, I have to go.

But, I know there is a GOD, because he brushed his hand against my cheek, his hair is snow white, and his eyes I'll never forget. I dreamed I was in an unfamiliar place laying on a couch. He came thru first and brushed the back of his hand against my left cheek. I watched him until he was out of sight. Then A voice like over a speaker phone said at my head, "We have heard your prayers, and my Father just blessed you." I looked up and Jesus was at my head. He said, "I am here at your head, and my Mother is there at your feet." I looked down and Mother Mary was at my feet. "You are being blessed from the top of your head to the soles of your feet. We have heard your prayers, and we have seen your sorrow. Those things have not gone unnoticed by us; And we understand."

So you people don't try to tell me that GOD does not exist, and Jesus and Mary do not exist.

Because they are very much alive in Heaven.

[Sarge's Little Helper]

I went to a Freewill Baptist Church growing up. Then when I met my husband I took Catholic Instructions from the Baltimore Cathecism. I had been baptised, but I was baptised again and was confirmed Catholic. We raised our family Catholic. I have never regretted my decision.

The minute I went into a Catholic Church I felt such peace. The crowd taking part in each mass. The beautiful prayers, the confession to relieve yourself of your sins, the whole bit. I've never lost my sense of awe and wonder. There is no other feeling in the world that can compare with God's peace.

I do respect Ally Kat's Catholic raising. And I have gone to her before and asked things I was not clear on.

I am proud of ALinChainz also for taking coats, toys, clothes, etc to the poor and being a part of his church.

I respect others religion. Like Jesus told the disciples..." If they are not against us, they are for us." (some were baptising and preaching the same as the disciples).

My mama rest her soul took me to church every time the doors opened. She was Nazarene Holiness, but went to the Freewill Baptist Church, never converting. I remember once a visiting preacher putting us through classes (7 Day Adventist). She wouldn't convert, so he wrote her a letter saying, "I'm so sorry you are dangling on Satan's side."

Daddy on the other hand never went to church. He would go to revivals and peep in the window while he smoked his Prince Albert hand rolled cigarette. (this was after the women got after him on the back row and tried to coerce him to "get saved.") I looked out at him, and he gave me the "shhh" sign. Once he was arrested for running his horse by a "brush arbor" meeting and shooting his pistols off when they were first married.

Although Daddy was very charitable. He gave a neighboring family a place to live when they started out. They had six kids. He'd buy them clothes, shoes, take them food. He'd even buy possums, squirrels, rabbits, coons, etc. from them and boil them himself and eat them. The man would cut wood for us and he'd buy it.

A new neighbor was a Church of Christ preacher, Daddy liked him. He got saved before he died, and I don't know if he was baptised or not.

But I dreamed for a long time of Daddy, it was like he and I were running and hiding from something...maybe he was in Purgatory. I prayed and prayed for him. Then one night I dreamed we were at the first farm we ever lived at. We had a glider swing. We were sitting on it, talking. Then he left me and went into a bright white light in the sky radiating around a being in white clothes. I knew then, he was at peace and I was too.

Mama told me of a light coming down around them one night. They would walk and talk up and down the road and yard until it was cool enought to go inside. Daddy's heart would hurt him and he'd thump his chest and try to breathe.

He also came to me in a dream years later. He looked so healthy. Had on a red plaid shirt and his overalls. He told me, "This is gonna hurt your mama." I thought he was talking about us getting ready to move from OK to NC. I hugged him, and he said he had to go. I asked where he was going? He said he was going "Where the Owls come from." (Old people acquainted death with Owls hooting). Anyway Mama's mom died, that night. I had to go tell her. Everytime I got to sleeping good that night, it was like someone patting me on the shoulder and like a breath of air. I noted the time the two times it happened. Grannie was having a bad spell and they lost her those two times the last one she didn't come back.

There have been many times since I was a young child that in dreams I realize now, in retrospect that I was seeing natural disasters, and was helping people I did not know.

I was telling my son Kirk about dreaming about a huge amount of mud and I was pulling people out of the mud. Their clothes would come off them in my hand, and I'd fight to keep a hold on them. Their clothes were unusual looking. I was praying for the people and weeping. I went on computer to check my e mail and "tusumni" caught my eye. Yahoo News was showing people being pulled out of the mud and their clothes would pull off, and the clothes looked like my dream. I was seeing my dream.

A yellow airplane going down. Me and the "Big Man" a being of great light whom I've dreamed about all my life...He showed me how to cup my hands on top and bottom and catch it and ease it down into a body of water. I talked about the dream to my husband, kids, anyone who would listen. Years later, watching "Natural Disasters" at my home health patient's house I saw a recreation of my dream. It was in Wales, and had Army police on it. It went completely under, but everyone survived. They said it was like they were falling fast, then they floated down softly and submerged.

Sorry, I have to go.

But, I know there is a GOD, because he brushed his hand against my cheek, his hair is snow white, and his eyes I'll never forget. I dreamed I was in an unfamiliar place laying on a couch. He came thru first and brushed the back of his hand against my left cheek. I watched him until he was out of sight. Then A voice like over a speaker phone said at my head, "We have heard your prayers, and my Father just blessed you." I looked up and Jesus was at my head. He said, "I am here at your head, and my Mother is there at your feet." I looked down and Mother Mary was at my feet. "You are being blessed from the top of your head to the soles of your feet. We have heard your prayers, and we have seen your sorrow. Those things have not gone unnoticed by us; And we understand."

So you people don't try to tell me that GOD does not exist, and Jesus and Mary do not exist.

Because they are very much alive in Heaven.

Oops. I wasn't paying attention. Tell me again what is going on.

[Katydid]

Originally posted by FORD
The Catholic Church is a HUGE body of people. If they start to lose a lot of members due to outdated policies, they might reconsider (as they did with Vatican II ) though admittedly not likely with an ex-Hitler Youth current Opud Dei (in other words STILL a Nazi) Pope in charge.

Old JP was practically "liberal" compared to Bennie Ratzinger.

Have you ever watched the movie called "Choices?"

A priest who lived in a homeless shelter was sent to examine a womans's life that was being considered for sainthood.

At the start of the movie a gypsy family of many members were sleeping, the statue of Mother Mary and Jesus began to rattle. Everyone got up and fled. A small girl grabbed the statue and ran with it.

It was planes going over. The people fled for some time. Then the small girl about 3 or 4 jerked loose and ran back to the church with bombs falling all around. She knelt on the bottom step and held her statue high and prayed. The priest stood transfixed and watched her. Every bomb that fell was a dud and did not explode.

A young man lying with other casualities (a German soldier with one leg cut off and bandaged) in a makeshift wooden trailer pulled along watched her transfixed.

The people from Rome came and just didn't want to consider the woman at all for sainthood. She was married, then widowed. She babysit the children at the Catholic school. Even her own daughter (played by Anne Hecht) didnt' believe in her. John Corbett played the priest.

They could not prove (a priest was sent to the place in question) a story because a priest was dead, and the father was dead, etc. Then the priest went to another town nearby, and researched farther.

Results came back and the priest told the Cardinals, etc. from the Vatican (one was a regular horses ass) that the event actually occured in a different place that was thought. And that the people were gypsies, etc.

Later that night the Cardinal who was holding the proceedings up called the priest in to see him. He was in the bed and had a prosthetic leg lying nearby. As it turned out, he was the German soldier who saw the young girl with the Mother Mary statue and the bombs fall and not go off. He actually saw the miracle that was being attributed to her.

I don't know if the story was based in fact, or not. I do know Pope John Paul made someone very unlikely a saint. Although I don't think he was an amputee.

It was on DVD...if you haven't seen it perhaps you should.

[Katydid]

Originally posted by Katydid
Have you ever watched the movie called "Choices?"

A priest who lived in a homeless shelter was sent to examine a womans's life that was being considered for sainthood.

At the start of the movie a gypsy family of many members were sleeping, the statue of Mother Mary and Jesus began to rattle. Everyone got up and fled. A small girl grabbed the statue and ran with it.

It was planes going over. The people fled for some time. Then the small girl about 3 or 4 jerked loose and ran back to the church with bombs falling all around. She knelt on the bottom step and held her statue high and prayed. The priest stood transfixed and watched her. Every bomb that fell was a dud and did not explode.

A young man lying with other casualities (a German soldier with one leg cut off and bandaged) in a makeshift wooden trailer pulled along watched her transfixed.

The people from Rome came and just didn't want to consider the woman at all for sainthood. She was married, then widowed. She babysit the children at the Catholic school. Even her own daughter (played by Anne Hecht) didnt' believe in her. John Corbett played the priest.

They could not prove (a priest was sent to the place in question) a story because a priest was dead, and the father was dead, etc. Then the priest went to another town nearby, and researched farther.

Results came back and the priest told the Cardinals, etc. from the Vatican (one was a regular horses ass) that the event actually occured in a different place that was thought. And that the people were gypsies, etc.

Later that night the Cardinal who was holding the proceedings up called the priest in to see him. He was in the bed and had a prosthetic leg lying nearby. As it turned out, he was the German soldier who saw the young girl with the Mother Mary statue and the bombs fall and not go off. He actually saw the miracle that was being attributed to her.

I don't know if the story was based in fact, or not. I do know Pope John Paul made someone very unlikely a saint. Although I don't think he was an amputee.

It was on DVD...if you haven't seen it perhaps you should.


Maybe the movie was "Promises?" instead of "Choices??" Been awhile since I watched it.

[blonddgirl777]

Originally posted by Jérôme Frenchise
Hi BG! Always in great shape as I can see. ;)

Yyyyyyep! :D
I "sort of" HAVE TO... (you know)...

So are you?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Katydid
Have you ever watched the movie called "Choices?"


It was on DVD...if you haven't seen it perhaps you should.

Never heard of this movie. I also don't quite follow what you were saying.

Are you saying this priest WAS the young JP, or what?

[Katydid]

Goodnight blond Girl,

I think I like you. Don't forget your prayers.

You too Frenchie.

The rest of you...

An Evening Prayer

O Lord, I praise You
and I thank You for all
that You have bestowed
upon me this day.

O Heavenly Father,
I entreat You to send,
Your Holy Angels
to protect us from
every danger and evil
through this night.

Briing us to the light
of a new dawn to love
and serve You anew.
Amen

By the tender mercy
of our God, the dawn from
on high will break upon us
to give light to those
who sit in darkness...
to guide our feet into
the way of peace.
Luke 1:78-79

Search your heart several times a day, and if you find something that is disturbing your peace, remember to take the proper steps to restore your calm. St. Francis de Sales

O Lord, my God,
thank You for giving me
rest in body and soul.
Your hand has been over
me and has guarded
and preserved me.
Forgive my lack of faith
and any wrong that I
might have done today.
Help me to forgive
all who have wronged me.
Let me sleep in peace
under Your protection and
spare me from every evil.
Into your hands, O Lord
I comment to You
my body and soul and
all my loved ones.
O Loving God, may Your
Holy name be praised.

The Angel of God
declared unto Mary
and she conceived
of the Holy Spirit.

My soul magnifies the Lord,
and my spirit rejoices
in God my Savior; for He has
regarded the low estate
of His handmaiden.
Luke 1:46-48

Loving Mother
of the Redeemer,
Gate of heaven and
star of the sea,
help us, fallen people,
who strive to rise again.

Pray for us, O Holy
Mother of God, that
we may be made worthy
of the promises of Christ.
Amen

O God, you have
brought Mary into
Your Son's glory,
and have given her
to us as our Mother!

Have a blest night. Try to sleep and rest in God's love and peace.