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Warham
08-06-2005, 11:30 PM
What would you have done?

Sixty years on, it's all too easy to condemn the bombing of Hiroshima

Max Hastings
Saturday July 30, 2005
The Guardian

The 60th anniversary of the dropping of the first atomic bomb falls a week today. The occasion will be marked by a torrent of prose from those who regard the destruction of Hiroshima and of Nagasaki three days later as "war crimes", forever attaching shame to those who ordered them.
By contrast, there will be a plethora of dismissive comment from pundits who believe the nuclear assault saved a million allied casualties in 1945, by causing Japan to surrender without an invasion of its mainland.

Plentiful evidence is available to both schools. In the spring of 1945, Americans fighting in the Pacific were awed by the suicidal resistance they encountered. Hundreds of Japanese pilots, thousands of soldiers and civilians, immolated themselves, inflicting heavy US losses, rather than accept the logic of surrender.
It was well-known that the Japanese forces were preparing a similar sacrificial defence of their homeland. Allied planning for an invasion in the autumn of 1945 assumed hundreds of thousands of casualties. Allied soldiers - and prisoners - in the far east were profoundly grateful when the atomic bombs, in their eyes, saved their lives.

On the other side of the argument is the fact that in the summer of 1945 Japan's economy was collapsing. The US submarine blockade had strangled oil and raw-materials supply lines. Air attack had destroyed many factories, and 60% of civilian housing. Some authoritative Washington analysts asserted that Japan's morale was cracking.

Intercepts of Japanese diplomatic cables revealed to Washington that Tokyo was soliciting Stalin's good offices to end the war. The Americans were also aware of the Soviets' imminent intention to invade Japanese-occupied China in overwhelming strength.

In short, the 2005 evidence demonstrates that Japan had no chance of sustaining effective resistance. If America's fleets had merely lingered offshore through autumn 1945, they could have watched the Japanese people, already desperately hungry, starve to death or perish beneath conventional bombing. Oddly enough, Soviet entry into the war on August 8 was more influential than the atomic explosions in convincing Japanese leaders that they must quit.

In some eyes, this adds up to a devastating indictment against President Harry Truman, who launched the most murderous weapon in history against a nation already doomed. How is it possible, in the light of such facts, for students like me to retain sympathy - enthusiasm is impossible - for Truman's decision?

The foremost answer is that much we now know was then uncertain. Amid their defeats in 1941-42, the allies had developed an exaggerated respect for their enemy's might. They did not comprehend in 1945 how close was Japan's industrial collapse.

Second, although Tokyo plainly wanted to escape from the war, its terms remained confused. There is little doubt that if Washington had explicitly promised that the emperor might retain his throne, Japan would have bowed. But so faltering and divided was Japan's leadership that the US still possessed grounds for real doubt about Tokyo's intentions. And why should Washington offer guarantees for Hirohito's future when he had been at least the figurehead for Japan's terrible deeds?

Many Japanese generals bitterly opposed surrender even after the Soviet invasion, Hiroshima and Nagasaki. It was not that they deluded themselves that they could win. Rather, they preferred death to humiliation.

All wars brutalise all participants, but both sides in the Pacific had become exceptionally desensitised. The great war correspondent Ernie Pyle wrote shortly before his own death in combat: "In Europe we felt that our enemies, horrible and deadly as they were, were still people. But out here I soon gathered that the Japanese were looked upon as something subhuman and repulsive, the way people feel about cockroaches and mice."

Japan's occupation of China had cost 15 million Chinese lives. Civilians had been raped, tortured, enslaved and massacred, while British and US prisoners were subjected to hideous maltreatment. The Japanese had been waging biological warfare in China. Their notorious Unit 731 subjected hundreds of prisoners to vivisection. Many captured American airmen were beheaded. Some were eaten. A B-29 crew was dissected alive at a Japanese city hospital.

Americans, in their turn, showed themselves reluctant to take prisoners. They subjected Japan's cities to the vast fire-bombing raids which began in March 1945, killing half a million people. Lawrence Freedman and Saki Dockrill, in a powerful analysis, argue that the nuclear assault must be perceived in the context of the deadly incendiary raids that preceded it: "Nobody involved in the decision on the atomic bombs could have seen themselves as setting new precedents for mass destruction in scale - only in efficiency." More people - 100,000 - died in the March 9 Tokyo incendiary attack than at Hiroshima.

We may dismiss conspiracy theories that Hiroshima was a first shot in the cold war, designed to impress the Soviets. Rather, the use of a "total" weapon reflected the inexorable logic of total war.

Amid a conflict in which 50 million people had already died, those who dispatched the Enola Gay viewed the judgment with gravity, but without the sense of uniqueness that posterity perceives as appropriate. Uncertainty persisted in August 1945 about whether the bombs would work.

This was one reason for Washington's reluctance to stage an offshore demonstration, though more potent was a desire to administer to the enemy a devastating shock, such as only city attacks were thought able to achieve.

The decision-makers were men who had grown accustomed to the necessity for cruel judgments. There was overwhelming technological momentum: a titanic effort had been made to create a weapon for which the allies saw themselves as competing with their foes.

After Hiroshima, General Leslie Groves, chief of the Manhattan Project, was almost the only man to succumb to triumphalism. He said: "We have spent $2bn on the greatest scientific gamble in history - we won." Having devoted such resources to the bomb, an extraordinary initiative would have been needed from Truman to arrest its employment.

Those who today find it easy to condemn the architects of Hiroshima sometimes seem to lack humility in recognising the frailties of the decision-makers, mortal men grappling with dilemmas of a magnitude our own generation has been spared.

In August 1945, amid a world sick of death in the cause of defeating evil, allied lives seemed very precious, while the enemy appeared to value neither his own nor those of the innocent. Truman's Hiroshima judgment may seem wrong in the eyes of posterity, but it is easy to understand why it seemed right to most of his contemporaries.

· Max Hastings, author of Armageddon: The Battle for Germany 1944-45, is currently researching a study of the war against Japan.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/secondworldwar/story/0,14058,1539327,00.html

Redballjets88
08-06-2005, 11:34 PM
it wasnt neccassary but it saved americans in the long run our lives are first priority over the enemies

DrMaddVibe
08-07-2005, 09:02 AM
Should've given them another one to remember us by.

Funny how they don't have rememberances for Bataan prison camps and Korean and Chinese war atrocities.

Selective memory they have.

Wayne L.
08-07-2005, 11:41 AM
The atomic bomb on Hiroshima was necessary to end WW2 & show the Japanese & the world the U. S. is not a paper tiger.

NightProwler
08-07-2005, 11:42 AM
Drop the bomb, end the war, save the lives of American troops.

Nickdfresh
08-07-2005, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Wayne L.
The atomic bomb on Hiroshima was necessary to end WW2 & show the Japanese & the world the U. S. is not a paper tiger.

I think they figured out we weren't a paper tiger when we fire-bombed TOKYO, and every major JAPANESE city with the exception of HIROSHIMA and NAGASAKI. Often times, we killed more people than died in each atomic bomb blast.

I'm not sure what I would have done, but let's face it, the A-bombs were not just about "saving American and ultimately Japanese lives," it was about showing the Russians what we had, and preventing them from getting into Japan in a prolonged invasion.

Anyone that wants to know how brutal the Japanese land war in asia was, as well as how ruthless we could be in fire-bombing and wantingly killing civilians should read "Flyboys."

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/0316105848.01._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-dp-500-arrow,TopRight,45,-64_AA240_SH20_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

Warham
08-07-2005, 05:55 PM
Truman had a sack with some big gonads to do that.

I doubt any president in the last twenty five years, besides maybe Reagan, would have been able to pull off a decision like that.

Nickdfresh
08-07-2005, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Truman had a sack with some big gonads to do that.

I doubt any president in the last twenty five years, besides maybe Reagan, would have been able to pull off a decision like that.

I think you're quite wrong, all presidents with the exception of maybe CARTER (a good, Christian man), have shown a willingness to use weapons at their disposal. Anyone would lauch nukes in the right situation. And you're forgetting REAGAN was a bit of a pussy (he mostly talked tough), after all, what did he do about the Beirut bombing of the Marines? Nothing, pretty much.

BigBadBrian
08-07-2005, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Warham


Max Hastings
Saturday July 30, 2005
The Guardian

Oddly enough, Soviet entry into the war on August 8 was more influential than the atomic explosions in convincing Japanese leaders that they must quit.

In some eyes, this adds up to a devastating indictment against President Harry Truman, who launched the most murderous weapon in history against a nation already doomed. How is it possible, in the light of such facts, for students like me to retain sympathy - enthusiasm is impossible - for Truman's decision?




I've read some of Max Hastings' books, and am about to read Armageddon, so this is not the first time he is full of shit. Most of the time I pretty much hold him in high regard, however.

I've read other articles in the Guardian this week about Hiroshima. They are really over-playing the importance of the Soviets entrance into the war into the Pacific as a reason why the Japanese surrendered. This is like the third or four article that mentions it prominently. It played a part, but not really a major one. I suspect their current anti-Americanism over our Iraqi policy has alot to do with it. Their current jab of the moment, if you will.

This thread could go on for days with such a complicated topic like this one. Hell, entire volumes have been written on the subject.



:gulp:

BigBadBrian
08-07-2005, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I think you're quite wrong, all presidents with the exception of maybe CARTER (a good, Christian man), have shown a willingness to use weapons at their disposal. Anyone would lauch nukes in the right situation. And you're forgetting REAGAN was a bit of a pussy (he mostly talked tough), after all, what did he do about the Beirut bombing of the Marines? Nothing, pretty much.

What did you want, unrestricted, around-the-clock bombing of Damascus?

Nickdfresh
08-07-2005, 09:38 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
What did you want, unrestricted, around-the-clock bombing of Damascus?

Why would I want to bomb Damascus?

kentuckyklira
08-08-2005, 04:52 AM
Quite a few reliable sources state that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were only bombed to test the effects of a-bombs in a real life situation. Thatīs why the állies refused the Japanese conditions of surrender. After all, once Japan was occupied what difference would the status of Japanīs emperor make? And donīt forget, the emperor stayed around and his kids and grandchildren are still around and revered by the Japanese population.

The US needed an excuse to test their bombs on real cities, filled with real civilians. More proof of this is, that one bomb was detonated at ground level and the other a few hundred feet above ground level to test the different effects.

Again and again, 2 wrongs donīt make a right, and just because the allies won the war doesnīt mean Dresden, Tokyo, Hiroshima and Nagasaki werenīt atrocious war crimes.

DrMaddVibe
08-08-2005, 07:16 AM
Nor the non-stop bombing of Britain!

Seig Heil, eh SS officer?

kentuckyklira
08-08-2005, 08:21 AM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Nor the non-stop bombing of Britain!

Seig Heil, eh SS officer? Where did I even remotely try to justify or marginalize my ancestorīs acts??

steve
08-08-2005, 09:55 AM
Has there EVER been a war without "war crimes"?
Since the dawn of "civilization"...probably not.

WWII was without a doubt the defining moment in man's march toward technologicalization...it was the turning point at which it dawned upon everyone that our tools could destroy us.

Whether in the form of organization, propaganda, and poison gas (Germany/ & The Jews), V2 rockets, the ATom bomb, Napalm...
it all came to a head.

We humans are some smart, murderous bastards.