Dean's distortions

[BigBadBrian]

Dean's distortions
Robert Novak


August 18, 2005


WASHINGTON -- Dr. Howard Dean, chairman of the Democratic National Committee, arrived at CBS's Washington studios Sunday with one unusual talking point for his "Face the Nation" interview clearly in mind. He claimed Iraqi women were better off under Saddam Hussein's barbarous regime than they are likely to be under the nascent democracy. In fact, he said it three times.

"That's a terrible thing to say," one old-line Democratic loyalist told me. "But what are we going to do about him? We're stuck with him." The answer by this Democrat and many others is to ignore him, which is not easy when he is on national television.

Iraq seems a major political liability for Republicans and an asset for Democrats. But Dean cannot resist employing the tactics that propelled a little-known former governor of Vermont to front-runner presidential nominee status in 2004 and then produced such a negative reaction that he lost every primary except Vermont's. To suggest that Saddam Hussein's rule is preferable to anything in Iraq is repellent.

In answer to host Bob Schieffer's first question on "Face the Nation," he replied that "it looks like women will be worse off in Iraq than they were when Saddam Hussein was president of Iraq. That's a pretty sad commentary on this administration's ability to do anything right." A few moments later, he said: "If it turns out that this constitution really does take away the rights that women have enjoyed in Iraq before, then I can't imagine why we're there."

"Well," said Schieffer, "I'll go back and ask you about that in a minute." He did not, as the interview moved to other things. But Dean went back a third time to his talking point: "The constitution looks like it may take away freedom from the Iraq people, at least half of them, instead of add it to them."

Dean was simplifying and distorting reality. In the complicated, delayed process of drafting an Iraqi constitution, Islam surely will be recognized as the state religion. How that conflicts with women's rights is one issue being hashed out.

The drafters last weekend were described by Shiite negotiator Jalel Aldin Saghir as agreeing that the constitution, while based on Islam, would guarantee women's rights. "There isn't anything in the constitution to impose religious teachings or religious laws in Iraq," Sheik Humam Hamoudi, chairman of the constituent assembly's constitutional committee, said in a news conference last week. Contrary to Dean, U.S. Ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad is pressing Iraqis to protect women's rights in their constitution.

What is so demagogic about Dean's stance is his insinuation that women were better off under the Saddam dictatorship. He is following the lead taken by Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton at the Brookings Institution on Feb. 25 last year. She quoted Iraqi women leaders as "starting to express concerns about some of the pullbacks in the rights they were given under Saddam Hussein. He was an equal opportunity oppressor, but on paper, women had rights." She contended that "as long as they stayed out of his way, they had considerable freedom of movement."

Clinton in 2004 was not nearly so over the top as Dean in 2005, but both are contradicted by people who know the situation better than they and are not driven by partisan concerns. Nina Shea, director of the religious freedom center at Freedom House, responded to Clinton's claim: "Women's rights [under Saddam] were largely an illusion." In 1989 when the dictator was at full power, Iraqi dissident and intellectual Kanan Makiya said: "Male domination has not been done away with. It has found a substitute in the all-male Revolutionary Command Council, the higher army command and the ever-so-male person of Saddam Hussein."

Howard Dean is not the first politician to distort facts in his own interests. But many activists in the party he now leads are puzzled over what he thinks he is accomplishing politically. Is it good politics to contend that Iraq was better off under Saddam Hussein than even a flawed Islamic republic? Does it make sense politically to tell Americans that more than 1,800 troops have died to make life worse for half of Iraq's population?

LINK (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/robertnovak/rn20050818.shtml)

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian


"That's a terrible thing to say," one old-line Democratic loyalist told me. "But what are we going to do about him? We're stuck with him." The answer by this Democrat and many others is to ignore him, which is not easy when he is on national television.



:D

[Warham]

Ha ha.

[FORD]

Robert "That's Bullshit" Novak, Traitorous Douchebag that he is, has about the equivalent credibility of a Milli Vanilli album at this point.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
Robert "That's Bullshit" Novak, Traitorous Douchebag that he is, has about the equivalent credibility of a Milli Vanilli album at this point.

This article is dead-on correct.

:gulp:

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
This article is dead-on correct.

:gulp:

Actually it isn't. Fact is that neither this country OR Iraq are safer now than they were when Saddam Hussein was in power.

Not that Saddam Hussein was a threat to this country. But the BCE fucking up so badly and pissing off the entire world certainly is.

And as for Iraq, while Saddam himself wasn't exactly a great humanitarian, the fact is that there weren't random terrorists running around and IED's going off in the street.

Like Yugoslavia under the Communists, it was hardly paradise, but at least it was stable. And what followed was much worse.

Poppy Bush saw it coming, and if he wrote it in a book, you know he said it to his idiot son.


While we hoped that popular revolt or coup would topple Saddam, neither the U.S. nor the countries of the region wished to see the breakup of the Iraqi state. We were concerned about the long-term balance of power at the head of the Gulf. Trying to eliminate Saddam, extending the ground war into an occupation of Iraq, would have violated our guideline about not changing objectives in midstream, engaging in "mission creep," and would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible. We had been unable to find Noriega in Panama, which we knew intimately. We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq. The coalition would instantly have collapsed, the Arabs deserting it in anger and other allies pulling out as well. Under those circumstances, furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-cold war world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the U.N.'s mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the U.S. could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land. It would have been a dramatically different--and perhaps barren--outcome.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Dean's distortions
Robert Novak


August 18, 2005

"That's a terrible thing to say," one old-line Democratic loyalist told me. "But what are we going to do about him? We're stuck with him." The answer by this Democrat and many others is to ignore him, which is not easy when he is on national television.


Well, just who is this "old-line Democratic loyalist anyway? Or did he only speak to Novak - and isn't he a reliable source - on double super secret background??

Or maybe it's one of the many members here who post under aliases when they have something to critical to say? Same thing: whoever this is - if he even exists - is a pansy.

Come on. This is dumb. You can find plenty of Republicans who would say the same/similar towards Bush and his policies.

[FORD]

I was thinking it was probably Biden.

That plagarizing, hair plug wearing, MBNA fraud enabling DLC piece of shit slams Dean at any given opportunity.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by FORD
I was thinking it was probably Biden.

That plagarizing, hair plug wearing, MBNA fraud enabling DLC piece of shit slams Dean at any given opportunity.

Dude, calling the person a "long time Democrat"...it could some buck tooth woman in Idaho with a 37 IQ!!

I'm supposed to give creedence to this kind of ambiguity??? FROM NOVAK OF ALL SOURCES???????

[FORD]

Originally posted by academic punk
Dude, calling the person a "long time Democrat"...it could some buck tooth woman in Idaho with a 37 IQ!!

I'm supposed to give creedence to this kind of ambiguity??? FROM NOVAK OF ALL SOURCES???????

Katydid is a democrat? :confused:

[academic punk]

Originally posted by FORD
Katydid is a democrat? :confused:

heh heh!

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
I was thinking it was probably Biden.

That plagarizing, hair plug wearing, MBNA fraud enabling DLC piece of shit slams Dean at any given opportunity.

Yeah.

He's looking better all the time. :D

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by academic punk
Dude, calling the person a "long time Democrat"...it could some buck tooth woman in Idaho with a 37 IQ!!

I'm supposed to give creedence to this kind of ambiguity??? FROM NOVAK OF ALL SOURCES???????


We wouldn't want to interrupt you worshipping at the altar of Maureen Dowd. ;)

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
We wouldn't want to interrupt you worshipping at the altar of Maureen Dowd. ;)

She's not bad for her age
http://www.vermelho.org.br/diario/2003/0816/maureen.jpg

[Warham]

Dean still said it (Iraqi women comment), otherwise FORD wouldn't have said the same thing in another thread. His talking points are all based on Deanisms.

[DrMaddVibe]

http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/multimedia/dean_crazy_train.mp3

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
She's not bad for her age
http://www.vermelho.org.br/diario/2003/0816/maureen.jpg

Seen her on TV....that picture is about the best she looks, believe me.

:gulp:

[DrMaddVibe]

http://www.geocities.com/justgoto/aaaahhhaaa.wav

[LoungeMachine]

Quoting Novak articles with unnamed sources no less??????

C'mon Bri.

As much as you hate Dean, even that is reaching.


And I'd do Maureen Dowd before I'd do that tannny Ann Coulter anyday.


Keep hammering at Dean, meanwhile I'm on the DeLay / Ashcroft / Rummy watch.......[yes, Asscraft is facing an indictment over Rove/Plame]

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by FORD
I was thinking it was probably Biden.

That plagarizing, hair plug wearing, MBNA fraud enabling DLC piece of shit slams Dean at any given opportunity.

No wonder I like him.

I actually think Biden is the Dems' best option for 2008.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
http://www.geocities.com/justgoto/aaaahhhaaa.wav

Can you post that link another 40-50 times for us, AssPipe?

The first 30 times haven't really been that funny, but eventually it might:rolleyes:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
No wonder I like him.

I actually think Biden is the Dems' best option for 2008.


:D :cool: :D :cool: :D :cool:

2 down, 50 million to go.........

[Guitar Shark]

Did you see his appearance on the Daily Show a couple of weeks ago, Lounge?

[LoungeMachine]

No, sharkey, but I'll go on the CC site for a clip

thanks.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Did you see his appearance on the Daily Show a couple of weeks ago, Lounge?

His appearance on Real Time with Bill Maher was much more amusing (it was aorund the time of the Jeff Ganon thing and Robin Williams made a very funny joke at Karl Rove's expense. Biden tunred bright red trying to stifle his laughter)

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by academic punk
His appearance on Real Time with Bill Maher was much more amusing (it was aorund the time of the Jeff Ganon thing and Robin Williams made a very funny joke at Karl Rove's expense. Biden tunred bright red trying to stifle his laughter)

Damn, I wish I'd seen that.

His appearance on the Daily Show wasn't funny, per se, but I thought he appeared very "presidential," whatever that term means. And genuine.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Damn, I wish I'd seen that.

His appearance on the Daily Show wasn't funny, per se, but I thought he appeared very "presidential," whatever that term means. And genuine.

That was the great thing about this moment. You could tell he was thinking "All right, laugh and show that you're an ordinary guy with a great sense of humor, who's on the other side of this joke...but don't laugh too much to appear mean-spirited or snide...stop it...stop laughing...stop laughing...hold it in...blow out your cheeks if need be, drink your water...but please God let me stop laughing...")

And Robin Williams, of course, just KEPT going. He did the unthinkable - he upstaged Bill Maher on Maher's own show. So here's Biden trying to get a handle on his composure, but Williams is STILL going...and it's ALL improvised and it' ALL gold...Biden was DYING.

[Guitar Shark]

LOL. Do you remember what the Rove joke was?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Damn, I wish I'd seen that.

His appearance on the Daily Show wasn't funny, per se, but I thought he appeared very "presidential," whatever that term means. And genuine.

Genuine??

Biden is the physical embodiment of everything that is wrong with the Democratic Party.

DLC sellout corporatist hack Republican Lite who stands for absolutely nothing.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by FORD
Genuine??

Biden is the physical embodiment of everything that is wrong with the Democratic Party.

DLC sellout corporatist hack Republican Lite who stands for absolutely nothing.

Tell me specifically why you don't like him FORD. Serious question, I'd like to know.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
LOL. Do you remember what the Rove joke was?

Maher began implying the question of "How did this guy under a fake name who used to work as a male escort gain security clearance and access to the white house?"

Williams saw where ti was going, and started "playing" Gannon, banging on a door, and screaming, "KARL!! KARL, IT'S ME, JEFF!!! OPEN THE DOOR!!! KARL!!! OPEN THE DOOR!!! MAUREEN DOWD IS AROUND THE CORNER, OPEN THE DOOR BEFORE SHE SEES ME!!"

The best bits were that he a) didn't ever say "Rove", and b) this was before ANYONE - including FORD - had really started joking about it. It was within 24 hours of the story breaking out...

I obviously paraphrased the joke, but the fact that he was implying that Karl and Jeff were Fuck Buddies - with Joe Biden sitting there right next to him - was really, really fuckin' funny...

[Guitar Shark]

ROFL! :D

[Guitar Shark]

I found a link... the part you're talking about is about halfway through, but the whole thing is awesome.

Funny stuff. :D

http://homepage.mac.com/njenson/movies/billmaher021805gannon.html

[FORD]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Tell me specifically why you don't like him FORD. Serious question, I'd like to know.

I thought I just did.

He's a PNAC signator (http://www.newamericancentury.org/russia-20040928.htm). That alone makes him unfit to serve in any US government office, as he is a willing accomplice to TREASON.

He voted for the Chimp's war, and still openly supports it.

His other votes have supported corporations over the American people consistently, as is typical of DLC senators (including one of our own unfortunately, but that's another subject)

His total unwavering loyalty to the DLC (which he claims not to be a member of, yet his name is all over their website) and is usually the lead attack dog against Howard Dean, the only true LEADER this fucking party has had in recent years.

As I said, Biden is the embodiment of everything that is wrong with this party. He truly sickens me.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by FORD
Biden is the embodiment of everything that is wrong with this party. He truly sickens me.


So we can count on your signature to get his name on the ballot, then?

[FORD]

Originally posted by academic punk
So we can count on your signature to get his name on the ballot, then?

If it's him or Hillary, I vote Green.

[Guitar Shark]

I hope you are right about Dean being a leader, FORD. I have grave doubts myself.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by FORD
If it's him or Hillary, I vote Green.

What's your grievance with Hillary? Haven't you frequently said that Bill was okay?

[FORD]

Originally posted by academic punk
What's your grievance with Hillary? Haven't you frequently said that Bill was okay?

Bill was OK as President, but all this buddy buddy bullshit with the BCE is making me violently ill.

As for Hillary, she's gone so far to the right that it's laughable to call her a Democrat anymore at all. And obviously she's not doing it to hold on to a Senate seat in New York.

I'm sick to death of these traitors selling out and calling it "centrism". Center of WHAT?

Kerry was pro war, pro PNAC, pro Likud, pro "free"trade" and virtually indistinguishable from the Chimp on 99% of the issues, and yet the DLC cunts claim he "lost" because he was "too liberal".

Reality is that if a real Democrat had been the candidate, we could have recovered a good chunk of the 75-100 million who didn't vote at all, because they justifiably feel that NEITHER party represents the American people anymore.

And with candidates like Judas, Biden, and Hillary, that perception is true enough.

[LoungeMachine]

I have the UTMOST respect for FORD, and think he is one of the most well informed posters on this site.

I just haven't caught his bug for Dean yet [and may never], and I still like Biden a great deal.

Having said that, I am at a loss to name anyone else I can get behind right now, and that's pathetic considering who is lining up on the Right.

I am so tired of choosing between the lesser of 2 whogivesashit.

But under NO circumstance can I throw my vote to an unviable third party, and take the chance of 4 more years of Neo-Con shitbag Corporate Fascists.

Throw out Billary and Biden, and who would YOU like to see run in 08 FORD, other than Dean???

[FORD]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Throw out Billary and Biden, and who would YOU like to see run in 08 FORD, other than Dean???

I'd like to see Gore pull a comeback like Nixon 1968 style, minus the corruption and paranoia.

Any candidate running will be able to say "Are you better off now than you were 8 years ago" and know damn well that no honest person, outside of oil company executives and war profiteers, could say "Yes".

Oh wait a minute... oil company execs and war profiteers aren't honest to begin with. Strike that part of my answer.

But Gore is uniquely qualified to ask that question with the implication of "see how much better off you COULD have been, if the Supreme Court hadn't fucked up? Let's try it again"

Wes Clark would be a good choice for VP under Gore. I can't see Clark running on his own, because I just don't see a guy with no elected experience winning in the current environment.

Alternate VP picks could be Barbara Boxer or Russ Feingold. I wouldn't put either of them at the top of the ticket simply because the last 30 years of history says that senators can't win, and this time we can't afford to chance it.

I suppose they could always surprise everyone and run Gary Locke. He's an ex governor, which is a plus. He's conservative enough to shut up the DLC whiners. The Asian American thing is something that hasn't been tried yet. Have a feeling he might not get a few key union endorsements though.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine


Throw out Billary and Biden, and who would YOU like to see run in 08 FORD, other than Dean???

He secretly wants Jeb Bush to run. :D :D

[FORD]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
He secretly wants Jeb Bush to run. :D :D

Sure, why not.

If a Bush "wins" another election after 8 years of destruction in this country, that would settle the question of election fraud once and for all.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
He secretly wants Jeb Bush to run. :D :D

This coming fromthe guy proven to be the most leftie person on this site - heck, in this country - at the moment???

[Warham]

Gore doesn't have a prayer.

"He BETRAYED us! He preyed on our FEARS! Arrgggghhhhh!"

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by Warham
Gore doesn't have a prayer.


I agree.

[Nickdfresh]

GORE already won the election in 2000...Why not again?;)

[DrMaddVibe]

http://www.mostlynothing.com/files/deantwilightzone.wav

[FORD]

You spend way too much time looking for those kind of things, AssVibe.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by FORD
You spend way too much time looking for those kind of things, AssVibe.

It's fine by me if it keeps him off the streets

[DrMaddVibe]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
It's fine by me if it keeps him off the streets

Streets? Keep dreamin' loser!

You spend way too much time thinking about me!

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Streets? Keep dreamin' loser!

You spend way too much time thinking about me!


Ring the Bell......and they come runnin'........:D

LMAO

[DrMaddVibe]

Stole my line!

I think its pathetic that someone like you has to hang around a fan forum for DLR and act like they know everything about the politico world.

What was the name of your band again?

The bell tolls for you...LOSER!

I bet you try some attempt at a put down before you honestly answer the question!

[academic punk]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
It's fine by me if it keeps him off the streets


Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Streets? Keep dreamin' loser!



Assvibe is right. Where he's from, pavement doesn't yet exist.

The correct term would have been "dirt road".

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by academic punk
Assvibe is right. Where he's from, pavement doesn't yet exist.

The correct term would have been "dirt road".

I stand corrected :D

It sure is easy to wind him up though, aint it? ;)


Imagine his response if we brought up the fact indoor plumbing is coming to his neighborhood soon.:)


This thread title is misleading.


I thought Dean had come out with a line of stomp boxes, being the shredder he is.

I was looking to replace my old tube screamer :cool:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe


Stole my line!

SORRY I DIDN'T CREDIT YOU



I think its pathetic that someone like you has to hang around a fan forum for DLR and act like they know everything about the politico world.

PATHETIC? WHY? SOMEONE LIKE ME?
AND I HAVE NEVER CLAIMED TO KNOW EVERYTHING ABOUT POLITICS, BUT I HAVE MY OPINIONS AND BELIEFS. AM I NOT ENTITLED TO THEM?


What was the name of your band again?

ASK AROUND, A FEW PEOPLE KNOW. WHY WOULD YOU CARE?

The bell tolls for you...LOSER!

WHAT MAKES ME A LOSER? BECAUSE YOU AND I DON'T AGREE POLITICALLY? THEN 50% OF THE POPULATION IS LOSERS BY YOUR STANDARDS


I bet you try some attempt at a put down before you honestly answer the question!

WOW. REVERSE PSYCOLOGY. NEVER SAW THAT COMMING.



People with a Rock and Roll past can't come here without being losers?

Why is that?

Is there an income ceiling to belong here?

Don't you enjoy reading dissenting opinions? I do.

For your information, I'm not the only ex-rocker to post here. Are they losers too?
:cool:

Or maybe I'm just a "loser" in your book because of my politics.

[academic punk]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine


This thread title is misleading.


I thought Dean had come out with a line of stomp boxes, being the shredder he is.

I was looking to replace my old tube screamer :cool:

I thought it was referrign to Dean Markley myself...

[FORD]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine


This thread title is misleading.


I thought Dean had come out with a line of stomp boxes, being the shredder he is.



http://www.theunionleader.com/doclib/photos/2004/january/124a1dean.jpg

[Nickdfresh]

Personally I like DEAN. But I see his style as a bit tactless and grating to the average voter....But at least he's real and is who he is....

I been in VERMONT this week and I see a lot of that kind of attitude.

[Warham]

Yes, he is tactless.

[DrMaddVibe]

Called that one.

What's the matter? Afraid your "legacy" isn't as strong to support a fan forum and can't do one for your own "band"?

Answer the question.