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Nickdfresh
09-05-2005, 12:54 AM
Viewpoint: New Orleans crisis shames US
By Matt Wells
BBC News, Los Angeles

At the end of an unforgettable week, one broadcaster on Friday bitterly encapsulated the sense of burning shame and anger that many American citizens are feeling.

Downtown New Orleans, near the Superdome
Flood victims were left virtually to their own devices for days

The only difference between the chaos of New Orleans and a Third World disaster operation, he said, was that a foreign dictator would have responded better.

It has been a profoundly shocking experience for many across this vast country who, for the large part, believe the home-spun myth about the invulnerability of the American Dream.

The party in power in Washington is always happy to convey the impression of 50 states moving forward together in social and economic harmony towards a bigger and better America.

That is what presidential campaigning is all about.

But what the devastating consequences of Katrina have shown - along with the response to it - is that for too long now, the fabric of this complex and overstretched country, especially in states like Louisiana and Mississippi, has been neglected and ignored.

Borrowed time

The fitting metaphors relating to the New Orleans debacle are almost too numerous to mention.

First there was an extraordinary complacency, mixed together with what seemed like over-reaction, before the storm.

Flood victims walk the street in front of the Convention Center in New Orleans, 1 September
The city's hurricane shelters grew increasingly filthy and crime-ridden

A genuinely heroic mayor orders a total evacuation of the city the day before Katrina arrives, knowing that for decades now, New Orleans has been living on borrowed time.

The National Guard and federal emergency personnel stay tucked up at home.

The havoc of Katrina had been predicted countless times on a local and federal level - even to the point where it was acknowledged that tens of thousands of the poorest residents would not be able to leave the city in advance.

No official plan was ever put in place for them.

Abandoned to the elements

The famous levees that were breached could have been strengthened and raised at what now seems like a trifling cost of a few million dollars.

The Bush administration, together with Congress, cut the budgets for flood protection and army engineers, while local politicians failed to generate any enthusiasm for local tax increases.


Too often in the so-called "New South", they still look positively 19th Century

New Orleans partied-on just hoping for the best, abandoned by anyone in national authority who could have put the money into really protecting the city.

Meanwhile, the poorest were similarly abandoned, as the horrifying images and stories from the Superdome and Convention Center prove.

The truth was simple and apparent to all. If journalists were there with cameras beaming the suffering live across America, where were the officers and troops?

The neglect that meant it took five days to get water, food, and medical care to thousands of mainly orderly African-American citizens desperately sheltering in huge downtown buildings of their native city, has been going on historically, for as long as the inadequate levees have been there.

Divided city

I should make a confession at this point: I have been to New Orleans on assignment three times in as many years, and I was smitten by the Big Easy, with its unique charms and temperament.

But behind the elegant intoxicants of the French Quarter, it was clearly a city grotesquely divided on several levels. It has twice the national average poverty rate.

The government approach to such deprivation looked more like thoughtless containment than anything else.

New Orleans under water
It will be many weeks before the flood waters are cleared

The nightly shootings and drugs-related homicides of recent years pointed to a small but vicious culture of largely black-on-black crime that everyone knew existed, but no-one seemed to have any real answers for.

Again, no-one wanted to pick up the bill or deal with the realities of race relations in the 21st Century.

Too often in the so-called "New South", they still look positively 19th Century.

"Shoot the looters" is good rhetoric, but no lasting solution.

Uneasy paradox

It is astonishing to me that so many Americans seem shocked by the existence of such concentrated poverty and social neglect in their own country.

In the workout room of the condo where I am currently staying in the affluent LA neighbourhood of Santa Monica, an executive and his personal trainer ignored the anguished television reports blaring above their heads on Friday evening.

Either they did not care, or it was somehow too painful to discuss.

When President Bush told "Good Morning America" on Thursday morning that nobody could have "anticipated" the breach of the New Orleans levees, it pointed to not only a remote leader in denial, but a whole political class.

The uneasy paradox which so many live with in this country - of being first-and-foremost rugged individuals, out to plunder what they can and paying as little tax as they can get away with, while at the same time believing that America is a robust, model society - has reached a crisis point this week.

Will there be real investment, or just more buck-passing between federal agencies and states?

The country has to choose whether it wants to rebuild the levees and destroyed communities, with no expense spared for the future - or once again brush off that responsibility, and blame the other guy.

Do you agree or disagree, send your comments on the story using the form below.

It disgusts me to think that my 'brother and sisters' in New Orleans have been ignored and discarded by the US government like so much trash that no line the streets of this once beautiful city. I am embarrassed it took so long to get help to people only eight hours away.
Lara Tosh, Nashville, Tennessee


I don't blame anyone for the tragedies of nature
David Augustine, Mendham, NJ
This article is so wrong-headed, it is hard to even begin to criticize it in a short space, other than to say it is written by an anti-Bush foreigner who has little understanding of America. Bush was right: no-one could have predicted when this devastating storm would hit. I don't blame anyone for the tragedies of nature.
David Augustine, Mendham, NJ

I completely agree with the article. What has been going through my mind this past week is that the crisis did seem political, racial, and I am disgusted. It's unconscionable that after an entire coastline was just destroyed, while New Orleans began to drown, the President was making fundraising speeches in California on Tuesday. As president, elected to serve the people of this country, why didn't he stop everything and call out the help those people needed immediately?
Lori Thoma, Reno, Nevada

My sympathy to fellow Americans sufferings from this natural disaster. The most advanced nation on earth and unable to response soon. A political disaster too. Mr Bush: time to wake up and cut red tape. More action and less talk.
D Sharma, Antwerp, Belgium

Shame on anyone that makes this tragedy political, socio-economic or racial. The US Government, both Federal and local; and individuals, failed both before and after the storm to react in a timely organised manner. We need to fix it and we need to help the survivors, but we are not going to build a wall around coastal US to prevent a category five storm surge from causing damage. And in the land of opportunity and personal responsibility the individual is ultimately accountable.
Robert Buckley, Decatur, USA


This disaster did not have to happen
Howard Goldsmith, New York
I am ashamed to be an American. This disaster did not have to happen. Years of environmental damage to the gulf coast and building a city below sea level surrounded by water was a disaster waiting to happen. Now the clean up will cost untold amounts of money and the toxic stew of chemicals will pollute the gulf even more destroying precious fishing areas which were in trouble to begin with. The pictures tell the story bad planning, lack of vision and the fact that racism is still alive and doing well in America
Howard Goldsmith, Staten Island, New York, USA

I agree the article, but what most people from other countries don't realise about America is that for all the great things we do we do some really horrendous ones too. Most Americans don't realize that we have a lower class, despite it being so blatantly obvious. The tragedy of this Gulf State disaster is that it is has exposed just how poor those states are and how much they've needed help for decades.
Riley Gelwicks, Gainesville (Florida), USA

As a proud southern American your article is so far from the truth I don't even now where to begin. What I read is a liberal, European, elitist view of this absolute tragedy. Americans will help each other regardless of colour or social level. As for aid from other nations, I for one say leave it. We can and will rebuild the ravaged areas ourselves.
Tracie Dixon, Sand Springs, Oklahoma

The people of New Orleans deserve much better - but the responsibility begins with who they choose as their local representatives. Representatives that can get things done - not just blame others for a lack of progress. Local emergency planning is the responsibility of local authorities. Their job does not end with making sure the bars are open for the tourists.
Kendall Walsh, Port Washington, NY

I agree with all the comments made in the above article. I wonder what the response would have been if a similar problem had happened in "Miami Beach" America should ashamed
Enid Jewell, Ontario.Canada

I think one should not only blame G W Bush for having neglected so dramatically some States of the South, but also all former Presidents of the US. But as was said many years ago by a famous American economist: it's hard to try to produce at the same time guns and butter.
Robert Deossart, Wervicq Sud, France

I fully agree with this article. For the self proclaimed "most advanced nation on earth" to build a city below sea level, in an area subject to hurricane activity, and not make absolutely certain that the levees would not fail is massively irresponsible.
Roger Gamwell, Dubai, UAE

I think now America and Americans in general will learn to appreciate the problems of the 'developing world' they so easily dismiss disparagingly. Even so-called weak nations like Sri Lanka and India manage to routinely respond to natural calamities of similar and greater intensity. It is time America shook off its complacency and check how strong are its credentials as a free, equitable and prosperous country.
Haripriya, Delhi, India

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4210674.stm)

Big Train
09-05-2005, 01:35 AM
It AMAZES me what Brits will enjoy gloating about..

Nitro Express
09-05-2005, 01:37 AM
America has always been divided. Things haven't really changed much since the civil war. I remember being refused service in a resturant outside of Atlanta, GA. They told me they didn't serve yankees. What dumb fucks. I was from Wyoming which wasn't even a state when the civil war was going on.

Seshmeister
09-05-2005, 12:32 PM
Originally posted by Big Train
It AMAZES me what Brits will enjoy gloating about..

How is that gloating?

You need to sort out your insecurities.

scorpioboy33
09-05-2005, 12:38 PM
Originally posted by Big Train
It AMAZES me what Brits will enjoy gloating about..

I like it! I hope this maybe change their mind about the whole iraq/oil invasion.

Nickdfresh
09-05-2005, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Big Train
It AMAZES me what Brits will enjoy gloating about..

It amazes me how little accountability you demand from your government...

What if New ORLEANS was hit by a nuclear weapon killing 10,000 citizens, and it took the Fed's 100 hours to get off their ass in response to a terrorist attack?

Big Train
09-06-2005, 02:54 AM
Um, what the fuck Nick, it is amazing to me how little you question their local government and quickly run it up to Bush. New Orleans fucked up bad. I keep coming back to the buses. Someone PLEASE explain to me about those fucking buses. You want to sit here and wail about dead bodies and non response, yet not a fucking soul wants to discuss those buses. Not the mayor Naglin, not anyone in New Orleans, not the DNC, especially not the media. I was hoping Kayne West could explain it to me.

Those people are dead and regardless of what the federal government should have ton, 20-30 busloads of people who got trapped absolutely should have gotten out. The federal government was a step off the pace, but they have done a remarkable job in light of being shot at and thrown against tremendous challenges. I say let them do their work. There will be plenty of time for questions later.

When it is time, however, we have to start at the local level. Those questions, the bus for me especially, has to be explained first.

Big Train
09-06-2005, 03:02 AM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Viewpoint: New Orleans crisis shames US
By Matt Wells
BBC News, Los Angeles

It has been a profoundly shocking experience for many across this vast country who, for the large part, believe the home-spun myth about the invulnerability of the American Dream.

The party in power in Washington is always happy to convey the impression of 50 states moving forward together in social and economic harmony towards a bigger and better America.

That is what presidential campaigning is all about.

A genuinely heroic mayor orders a total evacuation of the city the day before Katrina arrives, knowing that for decades now, New Orleans has been living on borrowed time.

The National Guard and federal emergency personnel stay tucked up at home.

No official plan was ever put in place for them.

Link (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4210674.stm)

Yea Sesh, where would I get a wild idea about smugness from? Oh yes, my insecurities, thanks.

Not only that, this BBC numbnut, has his facts wrong. Basic reporting would have given him the pdf for it. Fuck, it was on Drudge for about 3 days.

The "wankers" in your media are even more amateurish than our own here. Even though I think we all believe in our " home-spun myth about the invulnerability of the American media". This guy can blow me...

overcorpse
09-06-2005, 03:37 AM
wow a well thought out responce.

Nitro Express
09-06-2005, 03:50 AM
The first response to any disaster is the local govt. When New York City was attacked on Sept. 11, the city did a marvelouse job. Mayor Gullinai took charge of the situation and don't forget the city's emergency response center and the mayor himself were right next to the World Trade Center when the tragedy happend. People in the police dept., fire dept., and other city depts. took charge and did their jobs.

New Orleans had no evacuation plan when the city was warned for decades that a tidal swell from a large hurrican could damage the flood prevention system. The city did nothing to provide transportation for it's huge population on welfare. Sure FEMA fucked up, sure Bush was out of it, but that still doesn't excuse the local govt. from it's responsibility.

DrMaddVibe
09-06-2005, 06:17 AM
Monday, Sept. 5, 2005 11:38 p.m. EDT

Mayor Nagin: Gov. Blanco Delayed Rescue

After days of blaming the federal officials for not responding quickly enough to the Hurricane Katrina crisis, New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin praised President Bush on Monday - and charged that Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco had delayed federal rescue efforts by 24-hours.

"I'm so happy that the president came down here," Nagin said of Bush's Friday visit to Louisiana in an interview with CNN. "He came down and saw it, and he put a general on the field. His name is General Honore. And when he hit the field, we started to see action."

But Nagin had harsh words for his state's leaders, telling CNN: "What the state was doing, I don't frigging know. But I tell you, I am pissed. It wasn't adequate."

The New Orleans Democrat said he urged Bush to meet privately with Louisiana Gov. Kathleen Blanco during the visit. The meeting took place aboard Air Force One, he said.

After reviewing the crisis with Gov. Blanco, Bush summoned Nagin for a private chat - where, according to Nagin, Bush explained: "Mr. Mayor, I offered two options to the governor. I said . . . I was ready to move today. The governor said she needed 24 hours to make a decision."

Reacting to the governor's footdragging, Nagin lamented: "It would have been great if we could of left Air Force One, walked outside, and told the world that we had this all worked out."

"It didn't happen, and more people died."

Nickdfresh
09-06-2005, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Nitro Express
The first response to any disaster is the local govt. When New York City was attacked on Sept. 11, the city did a marvelouse job. Mayor Gullinai took charge of the situation and don't forget the city's emergency response center and the mayor himself were right next to the World Trade Center when the tragedy happend. People in the police dept., fire dept., and other city depts. took charge and did their jobs.

New Orleans had no evacuation plan when the city was warned for decades that a tidal swell from a large hurrican could damage the flood prevention system. The city did nothing to provide transportation for it's huge population on welfare. Sure FEMA fucked up, sure Bush was out of it, but that still doesn't excuse the local govt. from it's responsibility.

There is absolutely no comparison to Hurricane KATRINA and 9/11.

And entire city vs. three buildings collapsing? Puh-leeze....

BigBadBrian
09-06-2005, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
How is that gloating?

You need to sort out your insecurities.

It's all a matter of perspective.

Perspective.

Such an amazing thing.

:gulp:

Warham
09-06-2005, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
It amazes me how little accountability you demand from your government...

What if New ORLEANS was hit by a nuclear weapon killing 10,000 citizens, and it took the Fed's 100 hours to get off their ass in response to a terrorist attack?

They probably wouldn't be able to go in for a few months, or years if a nuke hit New Orleans, but that's beside the point.

BigBadBrian
09-06-2005, 03:39 PM
Not that I don't agree with the article.

Part of it is dead-on accurate. Part of it is not.

But it does take an American to detect the gloating.

BT is correct.

Nobody or system is perfect. Just remember...your police assassinated a perfectly innocent foreign citizen after a terrorist attack. Live and learn.

We have problems to work out. It will be done.

:gulp:

Warham
09-06-2005, 03:40 PM
New Orleans had an evacuation plan. Limbaugh read part of it on the air today. The problem is, Mayor Nagin didn't implement it. Those buses were to be used for folks who didn't have transportation of their own, as well as the elderly and disabled who couldn't move of their own accord. But there they sat, waterlogged, and unused. They had upwards of 500 buses they could have used for those very purposes.

Mayor Nagin should be ashamed of himself.

BigBadBrian
09-06-2005, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Warham
New Orleans had an evacuation plan. Limbaugh read part of it on the air today. The problem is, Mayor Nagin didn't implement it. Those buses were to be used for folks who didn't have transportation of their own, as well as the elderly and disabled who couldn't move on their own. But there they sat, waterlogged, and unused. They had upwards of 500 buses they could have used for those very purposes.

Mayor Nagin should be ashamed of himself.

True enough.

Like Guitar Shark said in another thread:

There is enough blame for everyone to go around.

Also, the responsibility to deploy National Guard troops lies with the State's Governor.

Nickdfresh
09-06-2005, 04:16 PM
Originally posted by Warham
They probably wouldn't be able to go in for a few months, or years if a nuke hit New Orleans, but that's beside the point.

Wrong.

Warham
09-06-2005, 04:36 PM
So you'd think the National Guard would go into a highly radioactive area days after a nuke hit? Where would they find enough suits to do that?

1 megaton surface fallout effects.

Assumptions
Wind speed: 15 mph
Wind direction: due east
Time frame: 7 days

3,000 Rem*
Distance: 30 miles
Much more than a lethal dose of radiation. Death can occur within hours of exposure. About 10 years will need to pass before levels of radioactivity in this area drop low enough to be considered safe, by U.S. peacetime standards.

900 Rem
Distance: 90 miles
A lethal dose of radiation. Death occurs from two to fourteen days.

300 Rem
Distance: 160 miles
Causes extensive internal damage, including harm to nerve cells and the cells that line the digestive tract, and results in a loss of white blood cells. Temporary hair loss is another result.

90 Rem
Distance: 250 miles
Causes a temporary decrease in white blood cells, although there are no immediate harmful effects. Two to three years will need to pass before radioactivity levels in this area drop low enough to be considered safe, by U.S. peacetime standards.

*Rem: Stands for "roentgen equivalent man." This is a measurement used to quantify the amount of radiation that will produce certain biological effects.

NOTE: This information has been drawn mainly from "The Effects of Nuclear War" (Washington: Office of Technology Assessment, Congress of the United States, 1979). The zones of destruction described on this page are broad generalizations and do not take into account factors such as weather and geography of the target.

jacksmar
09-06-2005, 04:45 PM
Real help is on the way!!!!!

Warham
09-06-2005, 04:53 PM
hehe. Good ole Dukakis.

Warham
09-06-2005, 04:59 PM
OOPS! Double post. ;)

Nickdfresh
09-06-2005, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Warham
So you'd think the National Guard would go into a highly radioactive area days after a nuke hit? Where would they find enough suits to do that?

1 megaton surface fallout effects.

Assumptions
Wind speed: 15 mph
Wind direction: due east
Time frame: 7 days

3,000 Rem*
Distance: 30 miles
Much more than a lethal dose of radiation. Death can occur within hours of exposure. About 10 years will need to pass before levels of radioactivity in this area drop low enough to be considered safe, by U.S. peacetime standards.

900 Rem
Distance: 90 miles
A lethal dose of radiation. Death occurs from two to fourteen days.

300 Rem
Distance: 160 miles
Causes extensive internal damage, including harm to nerve cells and the cells that line the digestive tract, and results in a loss of white blood cells. Temporary hair loss is another result.

90 Rem
Distance: 250 miles
Causes a temporary decrease in white blood cells, although there are no immediate harmful effects. Two to three years will need to pass before radioactivity levels in this area drop low enough to be considered safe, by U.S. peacetime standards.

*Rem: Stands for "roentgen equivalent man." This is a measurement used to quantify the amount of radiation that will produce certain biological effects.

NOTE: This information has been drawn mainly from "The Effects of Nuclear War" (Washington: Office of Technology Assessment, Congress of the United States, 1979). The zones of destruction described on this page are broad generalizations and do not take into account factors such as weather and geography of the target.

They'd probably set up containment zones immediately.

And NBC specialists would most likely move in if it were a small yield terror device...


BTW, one-megaton is the size of an ICBM's warhead. A small "terrorist" device would never be near that size, (maybe 10-30 KT max) especially since terrorist nukes don't exist.

Warham
09-06-2005, 09:06 PM
Yep, you are correct. A terrorist suitcase bomb wouldn't be that large.

Some ICBMs are 10 megatons, so I picked the midrange.

Either way, this kind of situation would prove quite catastrophic.

Nickdfresh
09-06-2005, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Yep, you are correct. A terrorist suitcase bomb wouldn't be that large.

Some ICBMs are 10 megatons, so I picked the midrange.

Either way, this kind of situation would prove quite catastrophic.

Very few are 10 meggies....

Those are for strictly silo busting.

No argument there, but a small device contained within a building or a city block would be very different from a one-megaton air burst...

DrMaddVibe
09-06-2005, 09:40 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Wrong.

Wow...a nuclear specialist in the house.

BigBadBrian
09-06-2005, 09:42 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
especially since terrorist nukes don't exist.

Yet.

:gulp:

Seshmeister
09-07-2005, 06:34 AM
Pretty sure Fats Domino could afford his own transport out the city, the bus thing is only part of the story.

Seshmeister
09-07-2005, 07:11 AM
http://www.sugarcat.co.uk/images/katrina.gif

Nickdfresh
09-07-2005, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
Wow...a nuclear specialist in the house.

Well I read things, a cuntcept largely foreign to you I can tell...

Mr Grimsdale
09-07-2005, 02:46 PM
handbags at dawn

...again!

Mr Grimsdale
09-07-2005, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Just remember...your police assassinated a perfectly innocent foreign citizen after a terrorist attack. Live and learn.

It's not Sesh's police, he's from north of the border.

Anyway that guy was Brazilian, an illegal immigrant and was a bit fat. I rest my case. Perspective, it's a wonderful thing ;) Kill all the fat gits.

Also you can't really assasinate an ordinary citizen and since he wasn't a British citizen it wouldn't involve treacherous violence. QED.

Yours sincerely,
Mr Pedantic

I should be a fookin' lawyer.

Seshmeister
09-07-2005, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Mr Grimsdale
It's not Sesh's police, he's from north of the border.

Anyway that guy was Brazilian, an illegal immigrant and was a bit fat. I rest my case. Perspective, it's a wonderful thing ;) Kill all the fat gits.

Also you can't really assasinate an ordinary citizen and since he wasn't a British citizen it wouldn't involve treacherous violence. QED.

Yours sincerely,
Mr Pedantic

I should be a fookin' lawyer.

LOL!

Plus the fact that Brazilian cops kill about 50 innocent people a month just for the hell of it means he probably felt right at home...:)

BigBadBrian
09-07-2005, 09:45 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
LOL!

Plus the fact that Brazilian cops kill about 50 innocent people a month just for the hell of it means he probably felt right at home...:)


Hmm.....

.....somehow that makes sense. As fucked up as it seems.

:gulp:

Nickdfresh
09-07-2005, 09:49 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Hmm.....

.....somehow that makes sense. As fucked up as it seems.

:gulp:

To be fair, a lot of those a summary executions of criminals. Not that I advocate that...but...(um, I'm a "commie-Liberal" and stuff).