San Francisco Gun Vote: Tough Law or Thin Gesture?

[scamper]

San Francisco Gun Vote: Tough Law or Thin Gesture?


By MATT RICHTEL
Published: November 5, 2005
SAN FRANCISCO - With warring gangs igniting a surge in homicides here in the last year, voters on Tuesday will consider a sweeping proposal to curb the violence: the nation's strictest municipal gun control ordinances, a measure that would ban possession, sale and manufacture of handguns and ammunition within city limits.

Pedestrians passed in front of a gun store on Mission Street in San Francisco in December 2004.
Polling data taken over the summer suggested that the measure, Proposition H, enjoyed overwhelming support of likely voters. But it has since come under attack from a coalition of critics - including the National Rifle Association and a smattering of community groups - and legal experts say that should it pass, it is likely to face a stiff challenge in state courts.

Should it succeed in banning handguns, it would join big cities like Washington, which banned handgun ownership in 1976, and Chicago, which in 1982 banned manufacture, sale and possession of handguns, but grandfathered in guns owned when the ordinance went into effect. Chicago has since banned the sale of ammunition.

Whatever the measure's fate in San Francisco, it has sparked some conflict. The San Francisco police union has lambasted the local elected official who authored the ordinance, which it said would do little except take guns out of the hands of law-abiding residents. The police have also said the law, which would require residents to surrender weapons by March 1 of next year could present an enforcement headache.

The measure provides for the city's board of supervisors, in consultation with the law enforcement community, to determine after the election what will be the penalty for violators.

"This is putting a Band-Aid on heart surgery," said Gary P. Delagnes, president of the San Francisco Police Officer's Association. He called it another "silly idea" from elected officials whose progressive ideas are not grounded in the realities of fighting crime.

The ordinance's author and chief sponsor, San Francisco City and County Supervisor Chris Daly, said he doesn't expect the law, if passed, to curtail crime by itself. But he said that it could reduce the number of guns in circulation, and thus limit the number obtained by would-be criminals.

"If a criminal wants to get a gun outside of the county, clearly he can," Mr. Daly said. But "if we're able to limit the number of handguns in circulation in San Francisco, we can take a handgun out of some of these situations where there are homicides."

Mr. Daly, a self-described far-left progressive, quipped of his critics: "I know I'm crazy, but they're crazier than I am."

Many San Francisco voters will be considering a measure intended to impact a part of the city with which they rarely interact. As the city has gentrified, and housing costs skyrocketed, poorer residents have been pushed into a handful of neighborhoods on the outskirts, like Bayview-Hunters Point. There, crime has had a resurgence, helping lead to 88 gun deaths overall in San Francisco in 2004, up from 69 the year before, and the highest since 1995, according to the California Attorney General's office.

Mr. Delagnes attributed the surge to drug- and gang-related violence in pockets of San Francisco. Overall, he said police have confiscated some 1,400 guns this year. And he said that if the city were serious about fighting gun violence, it would better enforce existing laws, such as urging judges to give jail time to people caught with unlicensed firearms.

Mr. Delagnes said the city also should follow the lead of Oakland, across the bay, which has seen its crime rate fall recently after giving more resources to police and working with federal law enforcement.

A poll taken in July of 600 likely San Francisco voters found 74 percent support for Proposition H, with 21 percent of voters against the ordinance and 5 percent undecided, according to the Democratic pollster David Binder. Mr. Binder said he thought that the heavy lobbying by various opposition groups, including the NRA, had cut into the margin, but that it would still pass.

In 1982, the San Francisco Board of Supervisors approved a measure banning gun ownership that was signed into law by Dianne Feinstein, who was then mayor. The city had been shaken in 1978 when Dan White walked into city hall and shot and killed Ms. Feinstein's predecessor, George Moscone, and supervisor Harvey Milk.

But several months later, a California appeals court said the law violated a statute that gave the state the authority to license and regulate guns. Mr. Daly, the supervisor, said the new proposition was carefully worded in a way to avoid the basis on which the last ordinance was rejected. "We've got a decent chance in court," he said.

Others are less generous, saying the ordinance is doomed to be overturned in court.

"This is a triumph of symbolic politics," said Franklin E. Zimring, at professor at the University of California at Berkeley Boalt School of Law, deeming the ordinance a "sure loser" in state court. Both daily newspapers in the city, the San Francisco Chronicle and the Examiner, cited the likelihood of a successful legal challenge as one key reason they recommend voters reject the measure.

Mayor Gavin Newsom, citing the likelihood of a successful court challenge, said he hasn't bothered to take a position on the measure. "It's a symbolic gesture," Mayor Newsom said. "It's a public opinion poll."

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/05/national/05gun.html

Keeyth, what is your opinion on this?

[ELVIS]

Hahaha...

Yeah, this will reduce the number of guns in criminal hands...:rolleyes:

Banning handguns, yeah right...



BTW, if you want to ask Keeyth a personal question, send him a PM...

[scamper]

OK, thanks

[ELVIS]

I was just messin' with ya...;)

[weesfreewheelin]

Where is that big quake were always hearing about that will deem california an island? Then thay can make berkely the state capital ;)

[Hardrock69]

If it passes, I wonder how long it will take for the gangs to murder the entire population.

Stupid fuckers.

They need to pass a law allowing people to carry a conealed weapon if they have a permit.

Crime rates would drop like Chimpy's approval ratings.

[weesfreewheelin]

Actually violent crime is down on the national average:cool:

[Hardrock69]

Not nearly like it is in areas where concealed carry laws are in effect.

[weesfreewheelin]

my state included bro

[thome]

Here is a silly bonehead question:Ban the sale and or possesion ..
within the city limits.....Guns and amunition...

Could a cop carry a gun with in the city limits ?

If so, where will he keep the bullets, Oregon?:cool:

[Hardrock69]

LMFAO!!
:D

[Keeyth]

My opinion on this is what probably separates me from most liberals. I do not believe in gun control. I think the right to bear arms is one of the things that makes this country so great, and I believe people kill people with guns, the same as they do with knives. If you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.

I think this is a stupid measure and I will vote against it. A good case study in this is Washinton D.C. which the article states passed a similar law in 1976. It now has one of the highest crime rates in the entire country. And I would imagine Chicago's isn't far behind.

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Not nearly like it is in areas where concealed carry laws are in effect.

With one exception at least. I used to live in Phoenix AZ for about a year, and while you can get a concealed weapon license for about $25, the crime rate was also extremely high. I chose to walk around with my gun prominently displayed and had very few problems. :D
Of course, it was only fashionable when I was in my biker gear, but I still wanted it close at all times. It's like the wild west out there. Ah, to be 25 again.

[Nitro Express]

Katrina and New Orleans proved that the police aren't going to protect you. The police ran, thugs took guns from police cars and went on a rampage. the citizens who pulled together and were armed policed themselves. One nieghborhood everyone with a gun and ammo got together and kept the pilaging and raping thugs away.

Gun laws basically keep guns out of law abiding citizens hands. There are plenty of guns on the black market to be had. I'm sure these drug runners in California have access to anything they want including full automatic weapons, grenades, and such.

Heck. Build a flame thrower. Nobody is making laws against those. some tanks, compressed air, gasoline. All widely available. LOL!

[Nitro Express]

I bet some citizens in France wished they had a pump 12 guage right now, as rioting scum burn up the country while the French govt. has it's combined head up it's ass.

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Hahaha...

Yeah, this will reduce the number of guns in criminal hands...:rolleyes:

Banning handguns, yeah right...



BTW, if you want to ask Keeyth a personal question, send him a PM...

Wow. Something you and I agree on. Will wonders never cease? :p

And leave the man alone! Anyone can ask anyone a question. This is a public forum... ...and I'm the man! :cool: :D

[Hardrock69]

Yeah well in Phoenix how much of the population is from Mexico, where anyone can carry a gun and where life is cheap?

They don't give a fuck about their lives in Mexico (the thugs, that is) so why should they give a fuck in the U.S.?

[ELVIS]

They don't and they wont...

[Millermoos]

Here in England we don't have guns and we don't have problems. We started having problems since they build the eurostar and we stated getting foreigners with guns in here.
I came back late every night on my own, no problems but I would not do the same if I was in New York for example I loved the city but I did not feel safe there at all, I am really glad I live in London you can go any where here and nobody bothers you, that's why we have so many famous people living here.Yes we do have crime we are not perfect but over all life is good here the only thing that's crap over here is the weather.
What you said about french citizens not having guns it is incorrect as many citizens have guns especially if they are in the country side they used them to go hunting.
Millermoos

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Millermoos
Here in England we don't have guns and we don't have problems.

You also don't have the means to resist. You are pacified and not free. You are in prison. :(

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Not nearly like it is in areas where concealed carry laws are in effect.

Amen to that my brotha'!

You aren't going to fuck with someone that may turn around and pop a cap in your ass.
If you are not allowed to carry a gun then the odds are in the favor of the criminal who can be sure his victims will be unarmed.

It's the question, "Is this guy carrying or not?" that causes crime rates to drop. Only the most desperate or stupid criminals fly in the face of death by assuming they'll have no trouble taking you down.
But when you meet that guy whether you are armed or not may mean the difference in life or death, and i'm pretty sure i want it to be me standing after the fact, lol.

A Governement that cannot protect you should never be allowed to unarm you, and this Government is useless when it comes to your families security, folks.
We've seen society break down on a small scale on the Gulf Coast in the last few months, where was Uncle Sam?
Put that on a larger national scale and tell me who's gonna have your back?
If you don't have any protection it will be the ones with the guns, shooting you in yours.

Gun Control, those two words together are a fucking joke.
Law Abiding citizens aren't the problem and those are the only people Gun Laws affect, that is why the solution has been so long in returning.
If you want protection then look in the mirror, there's you and your families protector staring you in the face.
You can be prepared or suffer the consequences of being a helpless victim who can do nothing to protect those you love.

Now i know the old west is full of legends and wild stories of outlaws and shootouts. but the reality of it is that most legends are urban myths that have been stretched way out of proportion because of Hollywood, John Wayne, and Clint Eastwood.
The populations at the time were actually quite civilized and crime was pretty low, but for one main reason, people looked out for each other and their towns, and they wore a gun on their hip.
Lynch Mobs were a pretty good deterant from outlaws riding into any given town and whoopin it up like you see in the movies.
But the most famous outlaws died very young, lack of public tollerance maybe?
There were the exceptions, but society was for the most part against letting crime rule the streets, not like the "look away and they won't come after me" compassion we have for our neighbors today.

So excuse me if i fail to see how making the criminals the only armed people on the streets as a good idea.

Cops need to be called, a gun just needs to be pulled out, you can be killed in less than a minute....Who you gonna rely on again?

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Yeah well in Phoenix how much of the population is from Mexico, where anyone can carry a gun and where life is cheap?

They don't give a fuck about their lives in Mexico (the thugs, that is) so why should they give a fuck in the U.S.?

That's why if it comes down to them or me, I'll try and make it me because i do care about life, lol.
I have no problem revoking someone's breathing priveledges if that is what they intend for me.

Fuck the Dumb Shit!

[Hardrock69]

Amen.

Kennesaw, GA requires that the head of every household own a gun and know how to use it.

The crime rate is insanely low there.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Millermoos
Here in England we don't have guns and we don't have problems. We started having problems since they build the eurostar and we stated getting foreigners with guns in here.


You're contradicting yourself...

Sounds like a gun would be something a guy could use, considering that terrorists have easier access to populated areas...

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Millermoos
over all life is good here the only thing that's crap over here is the weather.


That line right there is a contradiction for me. Without great weather, life would not be great overall. That's why I'm in California.

My family is from England and I've been there many times. Fortunately, the weather has been good when I have gone there due to it being summer, but I've seen it at it's norm too, and that would just depress me to have to live like that, with that dreary weather 95% of the time. Fugedaboutit!!

[BITEYOASS]

Fuckin commie hippies over in San Francisco have taken too much brown acid IMO! They ain't takin my Colt that's for damn sure!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BITEYOASS
Fuckin commie hippies over in San Francisco have taken too much brown acid IMO! They ain't takin my Colt that's for damn sure!

Hey, I resemble that remark! but this "commie hippy" (Yippy actually) likes his guns...;)

[Millermoos]

Hi Elvis
'You're contradicting yourself...

Sounds like a gun would be something a guy could use, considering that terrorists have easier access to populated areas...

No I am against guns here in England and I am not a guy, I am a Gal.
The police do strict controls over here so in the majority of cases there are no problems but the police had to work harder since the eurostar to find guns that's all I am saying. When I walk down the street I don't have to worry about some one shooting me but I felt and maybe I am wrong that when I stayed in New York if you went into the wrong area you could end up dead. In the Hotel where I stayed the lady there told me to take a taxi at night not to walk on my own. While here I walk or go by bike very late at night and nobody has ever bothered me. It could happen over here, but the percentage it' very low. Wen I was in New York I opened up the newspapers everyday it was just murders all the time when I open up a newspaper in London is all about Politics and gossip not murders.
But I do understand that in the USA you find this concept not acceptable cos you have this idea that is part of your freedom to have guns and that people will attack you. We don't think that over here cos it's more likely that you get crashed by car while crossing than to be murdered by gun shot.I honestly don't know of anybody who has been attacked with a gun here in London. While I have two friends in the USA who have been shot.
Millermoos

[scamper]

Originally posted by Millermoos

But I do understand that in the USA you find this concept not acceptable cos you have this idea that is part of your freedom to have guns

...livin in the wild wild west....

[Millermoos]

That line right there is a contradiction for me. Without great weather, life would not be great overall. That's why I am in California.

But you got earthquakes and it's very hot over there.

We have no eartquakes and it's not very hot over here
I can do so much of hot weather I guess us brits we like to moan about the weather it's like a national sport to us.

We are free over here, no we are not in prison it's a matter of perspective. I think someone who has to worry all the time of having a gun for protecting themselves from the Sate or others are actually the once who are not free cos you constantly leaving in fear mentally but I am sure you will disagree with me cos Americans you love your guns.

Millermoos

[BITEYOASS]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Hey, I resemble that remark! but this "commie hippy" (Yippy actually) likes his guns...;)

Well I meant the ones over in San Fran, not Buffalo, NY: The birthplace of Rick James Bitch! LOL

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Millermoos
But I do understand that in the USA you find this concept not acceptable cos you have this idea that is part of your freedom to have guns and that people will attack you.
Millermoos


It's not an idea, it's a fact, and it's in the 2nd Ammendment as our Constitutional Right to own and bear arms.
And we do get attacked, not just by so called terrorists, but by average criminal elements in our society.

You may have eliminated gun crime, but what are the statistics on violent crime in general where you live?
It doesn't just have to be guns, it can be any lethal weapon that leads to the over all number of violent crimes.

In most European countries where guns are banned you had a severe increase in knife crimes, that's stabbing to those who don't speak English, lol.
Personally speaking, I'd rather be shot than stabbed...blades and flesh make me sick to my stomach and t's very very messy if you want your knife back.

My point is that in decreasing one statistic there is generally an increase in another statistic.

I just believe that security depends on the individual and only a fool believes any government will be there to protect them.

[Millermoos]

I just believe that security depends on the individual and only a fool believes any government will be there to protect them.

This is the general American view.
as I said in England we see things differently.

You may have eliminated gun crime, but what are the statistics on violent crime in general where you live?
It doesn't just have to be guns, it can be any lethal weapon that leads to the over all number of violent crimes.

I don't go on statistics but just feeling safe on a day to day basis. I have been coming late in the evening no problem my friends as well, no problems. I don't live in a rich area, we have all sorts of nationalities in my area, no problems generally. I am not saying there is no crime cos there is but is not effecting us in away that makes us think we need guns to protect us and we are 7 million approx.Londoners. I mean to protect us from what? I don't know anybody who has been attacked through my friends or people at work.
millermoos

[Nickdfresh]

I'm under the impression that the only criminals with (illegal) guns in the U.K. are organized crime syndicates like mobsters and gang members...

Am I wrong?

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
I'm under the impression that the only criminals with (illegal) guns in the U.K. are organized crime syndicates like mobsters and gang members...

Am I wrong?

Yeah, let's put everything in a nice, neat, tidy little box.

:rolleyes:

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yeah, let's put everything in a nice, neat, tidy little box.

:rolleyes:

That statement is irrelevant.

Hunters & gun collectors obviously are allowed to have guns.

Other than that, yes...criminals and gangsters will be the only people with firearms (aside from the obvious police & military).

The first time I went to London, I REALLY had the feeling I was in a foreign country when as I waited for my baggage in Heathrow, a couple of bobbies came walking along, one of whom was cradling a sub-machine gun in his arms...

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Millermoos
But you got earthquakes and it's very hot over there.

We have no eartquakes and it's not very hot over here



Dude, or chick I should say, I am soooo sick of hearing about us having earthquakes. The last one of any signifigance we had here was 16 years ago. Before that it was in 1906. Gimme a break!

You have bad weather practically every day! That's just depressing.

And hot?? Maybe for a couple of weeks in the summer, (and I love the warm days) but the rest of the year it is close to perfection. Right now, in November, we're having days in the high 60's to low 70's fareinheit. Sunny and Perfect.

How high is the suicide rate in a place where the weather is so depressing?

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
That statement is irrelevant.

Hunters & gun collectors obviously are allowed to have guns.

Other than that, yes...criminals and gangsters will be the only people with firearms (aside from the obvious police & military).

The first time I went to London, I REALLY had the feeling I was in a foreign country when as I waited for my baggage in Heathrow, a couple of bobbies came walking along, one of whom was cradling a sub-machine gun in his arms...

Yeah, but you get the same thing at San Francisco airport nowadays. Military dudes carrying around AK-47's and such...

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yeah, let's put everything in a nice, neat, tidy little box.

:rolleyes:

You sister's box?? I'm in! :D

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Millermoos
I don't go on statistics but just feeling safe on a day to day basis.

So, by that logic, If you feel safe, you are safe ??

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Millermoos
I just believe that security depends on the individual and only a fool believes any government will be there to protect them.

This is the general American view.
as I said in England we see things differently.

You may have eliminated gun crime, but what are the statistics on violent crime in general where you live?
It doesn't just have to be guns, it can be any lethal weapon that leads to the over all number of violent crimes.

I don't go on statistics but just feeling safe on a day to day basis. I have been coming late in the evening no problem my friends as well, no problems. I don't live in a rich area, we have all sorts of nationalities in my area, no problems generally. I am not saying there is no crime cos there is but is not effecting us in away that makes us think we need guns to protect us and we are 7 million approx.Londoners. I mean to protect us from what? I don't know anybody who has been attacked through my friends or people at work.
millermoos

You don't go on the actual numbers of people who may have felt safe as you do but had that all come crashing down because they happened to be the unlucky soul to become a victim?

In the first place you are not understanding my position, i get this impression because you use terms like "idea" and "need" when it comes to Americans and firearms.
We don't need guns to protect ourselves, we don't even need guns, it could be anything...my point is that if you want protection then you better provide it yourself.
I have a cross bow too, and a standard compound bow with razor tip arrows that will fuck a man up pretty bad, should that be taken away?

Nobody is going to sterilize my life and tell me by what means and how i can or can't protect me and mine.
I don't live in a bubble where as long as a punk picks on someone else then i'm safe, that feeling is what we westerners call a false sense of security...I pray that you never have your bubble burst on you, it's a lesson i'd prefer people didn't learn.

Just remember this, it only takes one person to change everything in a split second. it isn't about fear, its about strength, to be aware without being paranoid about what is going on around you at all times...being ready for the unexpected mentally.
It could be the difference between panic and total self control.

Blue Steel assists me in keeping myself in control, and it beats the hell out of a straw and a piece of paper.

[weesfreewheelin]

Originally posted by Keeyth
Yeah, but you get the same thing at San Francisco airport nowadays. Military dudes carrying around AK-47's and such...

Just for clarification, our military nor police forces utilize the AK-47. It is however the weapon of choice for practically all other militarys, especially third world. There relatively inexpensive to purchase and fire(7.62 x39 ammo) I own one and absolutely love to fire it. I picked it up a at a gun show recently with two 30 round mags and a bayonette for $345.00. Fucking awesome weapon:cool:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yeah, let's put everything in a nice, neat, tidy little box.

:rolleyes:

WTF are you bitching about now? It's a presumed statement of fact. Few street criminals in the UK would have access to firearms, nor would want to use one in commission of a crime.

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by weesfreewheelin
Just for clarification, our military nor police forces utilize the AK-47. It is however the weapon of choice for practically all other militarys, especially third world. There relatively inexpensive to purchase and fire(7.62 x39 ammo) I own one and absolutely love to fire it. I picked it up a at a gun show recently with two 30 round mags and a bayonette for $345.00. Fucking awesome weapon:cool:

At a gun show? And there was no 3 day waiting period?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by weesfreewheelin
Just for clarification, our military nor police forces utilize the AK-47. It is however the weapon of choice for practically all other militarys, especially third world. There relatively inexpensive to purchase and fire(7.62 x39 ammo) I own one and absolutely love to fire it. I picked it up a at a gun show recently with two 30 round mags and a bayonette for $345.00. Fucking awesome weapon:cool:

Our forces use a mix of mostly M-16A2s, M-4 (shortend carbine version of M-16A2), along with some M-10s, M-14/21s and now a new (old) weapon to replace the M-4 made by FN of Belgium...

ANd I can't think of a real reason as to civilians owning assault rifles (like my Mini-14:))

[weesfreewheelin]

In North Carolina there is only a waiting period for handguns. Not rifles and shotguns. :)

[weesfreewheelin]

[i]

ANd I can't think of a real reason as to civilians owning assault rifles (like my Mini-14:)) [/B]

Simply because I can :D . Here is the guy I bought it from

http://www.classicarms.us

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by weesfreewheelin
In North Carolina there is only a waiting period for handguns. Not rifles and shotguns. :)

Even semi-automatic ones??

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by weesfreewheelin
In North Carolina there is only a waiting period for handguns. Not rifles and shotguns. :)

What part of N.C. are you in? My sister just moved to Hampstead recently and loves it there.

[weesfreewheelin]

I live in Charlotte. Hampstead is on the coastline. And to better answer your gun buying question, you can purchase a shotgun or rifle with only a quick background check that is basically to see if you are a convicted felon. Also that you have live in the state for at least 30 days. There is a seven day waiting period for handguns, which you apply at your local sheriffs dept.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by weesfreewheelin
Simply because I can :D . Here is the guy I bought it from

http://www.classicarms.us

Problem is, so can gangs and bank robbers...
http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/1211/guns1.jpg http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Square/1211/emil1.jpg

[weesfreewheelin]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Problem is, so can gangs and bank robbers...


They will have them legal or not. ;)

[Angel]

Just keep your fucking illegal handguns out of my country. :mad:

[ELVIS]

You have your own country ??

[weesfreewheelin]

Originally posted by Angel
Just keep your fucking illegal handguns out of my country. :mad:

I can't imagine why anyone from the states would want or need to visit there. ;) Maybe if I decide to become a terrorist and need to seek refuge:D

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by weesfreewheelin
I can't imagine why anyone from the states would want or need to visit there. ;) Maybe if I decide to become a terrorist and need to seek refuge:D

...in a cold, cold place!

[Nitro Express]

Fuck those old fashioned gun powder burning weapons, I want one of those cool phazers Capt. Kirk had on Star Trek.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by weesfreewheelin
I can't imagine why anyone from the states would want or need to visit there. ;) Maybe if I decide to become a terrorist and need to seek refuge:D

CANADA is a beautiful country witha great exchange rate for US funds...

And then there's the strip clubs (total nudity).:)

[Big Train]

Well, according to Michael Moore (so no, I don't put a great deal of weight on this...ohhhh, there is a joke there, but I walk away), Canada has more guns per capita than the US. It was central to his argument.

So it just bothers you if American "illegal" guns come into your country. If it's illegal it will be used for crime, but if it is Canada inspected and registered, it will be for sunny, happy things like hunting?

[Millermoos]

Glad to know you have not had an earthquake in a long time. Maybe I will come on holiday then. I have never been in California.
I think if you are happy within yourelf you are happy no matter what weather there is outside, I liked the USA but I am happy here in England as well.
I am not telling any of you in the USA that you should not have guns you do what you want but don't come and tell me that we need guns over here cos we don't need them.
Regarding gang members with guns I have never saw them having guns so I don't know. I mean there is a crack house down the road from where I live ( they seem to be very busy at night) but the people there never gave me or my neighbours any problems and they see me late at night when I go back home. Its quite funny actually cos one my neighbours is trying to sell his house (he is starting a family and the place is to small for his family) and more than 30 people viewed the house an nobody is buying it cos of the crack house down the road but none of us ever had any problems. There are neighbours who lived all their lives here never had anything stolen Stuff, or car broken into etc.

So, by that logic, If you feel safe, you are safe.
Yes if you feel aggression or fear you will attract aggression or fear back.I am not afraid of the people in the crack house down the road and they don't bother me. I am sure you will disagree with me Elvis.
Millermoos

[Keeyth]

You've just been lucky. If you have a crack house down the road from you, it is only a matter of time before you will have trouble.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Millermoos
Its quite funny actually cos one my neighbours is trying to sell his house (he is starting a family and the place is to small for his family) and more than 30 people viewed the house an nobody is buying it cos of the crack house down the road but none of us ever had any problems.

You don't recognize that as a problem ??

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Millermoos
Yes if you feel aggression or fear you will attract aggression or fear back.

What kind of logic is that ??

[Keeyth]

Kinda kooky logic actually. I agree with Elvis on this.

[ELVIS]

She's crazy...

You're absolutely right about her being lucky...

Crackheads will do ANYTHING when they need a rock and they have exhausted all of their resources...

[Keeyth]

Exactly.

[Millermoos]

What's a rock?
They never approached me or the neighbors we never had any problems actually, which is quite ironic cos you would think one would have problems if they had a crack house down the road.They are just very busy at night with people coming in and out of the house. There also kids going in bikes but they never gave me any problems. I always say Hi to them and they say Hi back.The only accident we had and this my neighbor told me cos I was at work when it happend: some time ago someone had an accident( someone jumped off or was pushed by someone else from accross the road apparently the person was drunk) and the police came.
What's Kooky Logic? Is it like Woodstock Logic in Snoopy. I am bit like the Woodstock character.
Millermoos

[Keeyth]

LMAO! What's a rock???

You know, you sound like you might live in Bizarro world, and maybe there, crack houses on your street ARE O.K.... :D

[Angel]

Originally posted by Big Train
Well, according to Michael Moore (so no, I don't put a great deal of weight on this...ohhhh, there is a joke there, but I walk away), Canada has more guns per capita than the US. It was central to his argument.

So it just bothers you if American "illegal" guns come into your country. If it's illegal it will be used for crime, but if it is Canada inspected and registered, it will be for sunny, happy things like hunting?

NOTE - I said HANDGUNS. Those aren't hunting weapons, they are made to kill people, and they have no other purpose. So, please, keep your fucking illegal handguns out of my country. Over 50% of gun deaths this year in Toronto alone have been from illegal handguns from the States. It's a HUGE issue here.

[Angel]

Originally posted by Millermoos
What's a rock?
They never approached me or the neighbors we never had any problems actually, which is quite ironic cos you would think one would have problems if they had a crack house down the road.They are just very busy at night with people coming in and out of the house. There also kids going in bikes but they never gave me any problems. I always say Hi to them and they say Hi back.The only accident we had and this my neighbor told me cos I was at work when it happend: some time ago someone had an accident( someone jumped off or was pushed by someone else from accross the road apparently the person was drunk) and the police came.
What's Kooky Logic? Is it like Woodstock Logic in Snoopy. I am bit like the Woodstock character.
Millermoos

You CLAIM to be from England, but you spell neighbor the American way... very interesting.

[Millermoos]

I use spell check it must be American cos that's what it gave me. I am dyslexic.
I see life as Bizarre generally. Maybe I shall goggle up rock and crack house and see what I get cos I know crack house is to do with drugs but I am not sure what type of drug specifically, if it is any worst than cocaine for example. Rock=maybe it means getting high, that they need a shot of some sort of drug they can't do with out. Anyway I will check on google.
Millermoos

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Millermoos
I use spell check it must be American cos that's what it gave me. I am dyslexic.



What did the spell check say about "cos" ??

You're such a fucking liar...

And who gives a rat's ass if you're dyslexic ??

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by ELVIS
What did the spell check say about "cos" ??

You're such a fucking liar...

And who gives a rat's ass if you're dyslexic ??

Boy, today you sure are screaming liar at everybody a lot for a closet crack whore nurse! :D :gun:

[ELVIS]

She lies, If she really is a she, just about as much as yourself...

[Keeyth]

Which would be just as much as you then, huh?

[Big Train]

Originally posted by Angel
NOTE - I said HANDGUNS. Those aren't hunting weapons, they are made to kill people, and they have no other purpose. So, please, keep your fucking illegal handguns out of my country. Over 50% of gun deaths this year in Toronto alone have been from illegal handguns from the States. It's a HUGE issue here.

OK that makes even less sense. Only dirty, illlegal American handguns are causing all your crimes. Who's firing these weapons, Americans?

[ELVIS]

They're automatics...:D

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
What kind of logic is that ??

It's called BAR logic, or PUB logic depending on your geographical location.

Go to any bar and walk around acting like a bad ass and you will attract another bad ass who thinks his ass is badder than yern.

Whereas the pussy will just get laughed at by said bad ass and all that gets hurt is the pride.

If i'm drinking whiskey, i'm all about pissing matches, so i don't drink it much anymore...getting too old to bar brawl.
Besides, people will just shoot you these days.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
She's crazy...

You're absolutely right about her being lucky...

Crackheads will do ANYTHING when they need a rock and they have exhausted all of their resources...

I know this to be true from personal experience.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Angel
NOTE - I said HANDGUNS. Those aren't hunting weapons, they are made to kill people, and they have no other purpose. So, please, keep your fucking illegal handguns out of my country. Over 50% of gun deaths this year in Toronto alone have been from illegal handguns from the States. It's a HUGE issue here.

You haven't been hunting with me then.
I'll use a .357 if a deer is too stubborn to die right away.

Pop them with an arrow, track them, find them, shoot them in the head, gut 'em and drop it off at the butcher for packaging for the freezer, all in a days hunting.

[Nitro Express]

I use the Ruger Redhawk 44 magnum for pigs and deer. I have a Smith & Wesson target pistol. Now I cowboy action shoot with Colt Single Action type guns. My favorite being a pair of Navy revolvers that anyone can order through the mail without going through an FFL dealer.

.357 or a cap and ball Colt Walker. The balistics are the same. One must fill out a form and have a background check to buy, the other is available at cabelas.com. I guess making lots of smoke when it goes off makes it safer and less deadly. Stuff a few Dragoons in your belt and you have 20 plus shots of hard hitting 44 caliber lead. Gun laws are pretty much a joke. If they worked, Toronto wouldn't have illegal handguns would they?

[Millermoos]

You are so rude! I am not lying maybe you need to join an anger mangement association. Asshole.
M

[Millermoos]

I am not suprised there are not many gals on this web if this is the only way you talk to them, you are such a looser. I don't care if you don't care I am dyslexic you are so primitive go back to your cave.

[Millermoos]

And keeyth maybe you and Elvis are the real whores in here. Both rude loosers.

[Millermoos]

Actually I am going to retract what I have said to you two( Keeyth and Elvis) cos if I am rude to you like you have been to me I am just lowering myself to your level which is not right. It's not right being rude to people, it's wrong no matter the reason. From now own I will try really hard to ignore people who are rude to me I have better things to do with my life.
Millermoos

[Nickdfresh]

Handguns should be legal, but it should be very difficult to get one as in police background checks required, with special exemptions for those under threat, to get a license as it is in NYS.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
.... Gun laws are pretty much a joke. If they worked, Toronto wouldn't have illegal handguns would they?

To be fair and honest, they do work much better in EUROPE where they don't have a big mother-fucking powerful county south of them, with some of it's states selling weapons like they were candy to a child...

[Millermoos]

This is very interesting, so it means that you have different laws in different States. In England and Europe usually people think that the laws in the USA are the same in each State. Did you always have in NYC, license for guns or is it a fairly new thing?
Millermoos

[Keeyth]

Originally posted by Millermoos
Actually I am going to retract what I have said to you two( Keeyth and Elvis) cos if I am rude to you like you have been to me I am just lowering myself to your level which is not right. It's not right being rude to people, it's wrong no matter the reason. From now own I will try really hard to ignore people who are rude to me I have better things to do with my life.
Millermoos

No, no, no, don't take it back. I take it as a compliment actually. I have been know to be quite the whore at times.

Hell, I'll come over and fuck your skull for an hour and then turn around and do your best friend! Whore? That's me! :D

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Millermoos
This is very interesting, so it means that you have different laws in different States. In England and Europe usually people think that the laws in the USA are the same in each State. Did you always have in NYC, license for guns or is it a fairly new thing?
Millermoos

Oh yes.

New York state had a problem with people buying weapons in southern states, then shipping them north to criminal gangs...

It varies greatly, for example, it's kind of a pain-in-the-ass to get a pistol permit in NY State. But I think IT SHOULD BE at least as difficult AS GETTING A DRIVER'S LICENCE as it is to get a gun licence.

[Angel]

Originally posted by Big Train
OK that makes even less sense. Only dirty, illlegal American handguns are causing all your crimes. Who's firing these weapons, Americans?

Your aptly named, when God was handing out brains, you obviously thought he said trains....

Less guns = less death by guns. I don't give a FUCK about the criminals killing each other, it's the fucking innocent bystanders (usually CHILDREN) that bother me. The criminals would still kill each other, but they would have to use knives or their fists... no more stray bullets hitting innocent bystanders...

[Big Train]

Lame joke aside,

Your argument contradicts itself.

Less guns=less death. By that (and Michael Moore's) assumption, Canada SHOULD be a death trap.

But why would I bother you with something called logic?