For Real Americans and Patriots OnLy

[jacksmar]

Great site.

http://www.grouchymedia.com/

Discuss.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by jacksmar
Great site.

http://www.grouchymedia.com/

Discuss.

Does it have gay porn on it?:confused:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Does it have gay porn on it?:confused:

Apparently:
http://www.grouchymedia.com/images/website/americas_defense.jpg

LOL No "cowards" need apply? Yeah, if you're a big, tough macho internet surfer that wishes to support the troops by heroically clicking on your mouse, this is the site for you!:D

Maybe they should have elistment papers ready for you Neo Con faggots willing to fight to the death (of somebody else)?;)


But I see TRACI LORDS videos are available, so it can't be all bad!

[Nickdfresh]

This is how the war is (graphic and disturbing):

An Insurgent Electrocuted (http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/october/ogrish-dot-com-electrocuted_insurgent3.jpg) (& horribly disfigured) after he tried to place an IED (roadside bomb) too close to power lines.

#2 (http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/october/ogrish-dot-com-electrocuted_insurgent2.jpg)

An Iraqi Army Convoy hit by an IED (http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/november/ogrish-dot-com-iraqi_army_convoy_hit_by_ied3.jpg)

A US Army convoy (unarmored HUMVEE?) after it was hit by an IED:

#1 (http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/november/ogrish-dot-com-attack_on_us_convoy_in_iraq1.jpg)

#2 (http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/november/ogrish-dot-com-attack_on_us_convoy_in_iraq4.jpg)

#3 (http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/november/ogrish-dot-com-attack_on_us_convoy_in_iraq6.jpg)

#4 (http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/november/ogrish-dot-com-attack_on_us_convoy_in_iraq5.jpg)

#5 (http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/november/ogrish-dot-com-attack_on_us_convoy_in_iraq11.jpg)

US Military medics/corpmen give first aid to wounded IRAQI contractors: (http://www.ogrish.com/archives/2005/november/ogrish-dot-com-marines_treating_wounded.wmv)

[jacksmar]

Nice try Nick. And I love Traci Lords without the boob job.

I served and can be called into service again.
But what might really shock you is most that have served would go again. Same here.

And I don't care if we ever agree, I'd still take the fight to the enemy for your beliefs.

"Tell the world why you're proud of America. Tell them when the Star-Spangled Banner starts, Americans get to their feet, Hispanics, Irish, Italians, Central Europeans, East Europeans, Jews, Muslims, white, Asian, black, those who go back to the early settlers.

Tell them why Americans, one and all, stand upright and respectful. Not because some state official told them to, but because whatever race, color, class or creed they are, being American means being free."

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by jacksmar
Nice try Nick. And I love Traci Lords without the boob job.

Of course. Who doesn't?


I served and can be called into service again.
But what might really shock you is most that have served would go again. Same here.

Oh, you'd serve again, huh? Why not match your rhetoric and go to it then?


And I don't care if we ever agree, I'd still take the fight to the enemy for your beliefs.

Well you need a map pal, because no IRAQIs were in on 9/11...Not one. Oh, and neither was "al Qaida of IRAQ," they didn't exist before we invaded...


"Tell the world why you're proud of America. Tell them when the Star-Spangled Banner starts, Americans get to their feet, Hispanics, Irish, Italians, Central Europeans, East Europeans, Jews, Muslims, white, Asian, black, those who go back to the early settlers.

Did you get that out of a high school textbook?


Tell them why Americans, one and all, stand upright and respectful. Not because some state official told them to, but because whatever race, color, class or creed they are, being American means being free."

Good. If you're a real AMERICAN, you'll realize that this war is destructive to AMERICANS, our military, and our long term interests...

And words mean little if they're not matched by actions.

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by jacksmar

And I don't care if we ever agree, I'd still take the fight to the enemy for your beliefs.



What enemy? We took out Saddam Hussein.

There is no "enemy" in Iraq anymore.


Oh sure there are a bunch of "insurgents", but insurgency is an Iraqi problem.

We invaded Iraq with no provocation, based on a pack of LIES.

Period.

I do agree that now we are there, we must stay until the Iraqi army is sufficently "trained" in modern tactics to be able to defend themselves.

They certainly need the training, as the insurgents are blowing up their own mosques with their own Muslims inside now.


That said, I look forward to the election process they are about to undergo, and I sincerely hope that once the Iraqi government is functional, they turn right around and order us to get the fuck out of their country.

We do NOT belong there, and ONCE AGAIN, we are in a Vietnam-type situation, where we invaded a country, started killing people, and now our troops are sitting around with their thumbs up their asses while they die one by one from insurgent activity.

There is no "victory" to be had.

We already achieved our "objective"...removing Saddamite from power.

The "terrist" question has no relevance to Iraq.

That is part of the big Fairy Tale read to all of us by the giant American fireplace that is burning bodies with white phosphorous.

We have no business staying there any longer than is necessary.

We are not profiting from staying there. We are just causing more of our servicemen & women to die.

Nick, you said it all.

This military action is only hurting our standing in the world community.

As stupid as the "terrists" are to try to drive us out by continuing to kill our soldiers, Chimpy and his fucking pack of criminals were equally as stupid to think that a war against "terrists" could EVER be won.

As fast as we kill them, more join the cause to fight America.

It is as useless as the War On Drugs.

It cannot be won.

End of story.

[Hardrock69]

*edit* double post

[ODShowtime]

he's just happy there is an enemy. many people cannot live without one. God damn some people are just a pain in my fucking ass.

[Hardrock69]

That is the reason behind the entire "terrist" fairy tale!

I have posted before that prior to 1990, WWII was the last actual "War" where we actually had a country to fight for legitimate reasons.

Korea & Vietnam were politically created by the OSS & CIA years before we were ever there.

The "reason" we were over there was less defined than the reasons we fought in WWII (to prevent global domination, as well as the invasion of our country).



Now...with "terrists", there is NO "country" to invade.

Chimpy and his cronies only need to holler "TERRIST!!!!" and they feel that gives them an excuse to attack whomever the fuck they want!

Because guess what? "Terrists" do not live in only one "country".

They are the perfect boogeymen....giving the U.S. the excuse to go to war whenever and wherever they want...bombing the fuck out of brown people.

When will it end?

Never.

The Military Industrial complex requires regular infusions of cash, as well as real-world, real-time testing of the latest weapons technology.

How can one actually test stuff out unless one is actually using it in the field in a real-life war?

Not only that, it gives the Pentagon the opportunity to train our troops and their commanders in new tactics and strategy, in a REAL WAR.

So when they all file their After-Action reports, they can analyze them to death, and figure out how to improve our strategic planning and logistical support for the coming century.

In one aspect, not all of that is bad.

This is the 21st century. Warfare is now much different than it was 50 years ago, with different rules of engagement.

We must adapt our armed forces in order to survive.

That is a "positive" thing.

However, War is bad. Death and destruction of innocent people is bad.

And Chimpy and his Crime Family are a bunch of genocidal maniacs, guilty of murdering hundreds of thousands of people.

Hitler was worse, Stalin and Mao were much worse, but Chimpy wants to have his place in history as one of the great Murderers of all time.

Fucking bastard.

:cool:

Have a nice weekend everyone!

:D

[ELVIS]

Oh, and neither was "al Qaida of IRAQ," they didn't exist before we invaded...


That's bullshit...

Saddam had ongoing ties to Al Qaida...

Iraq was a fafehaven for Al Qaida and other terrorists...

It's been documented in this forum...

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Hardrock69

When will it end?

Never.



Only if something isn't done about it...

And that's what the liberals want to do about it...

Nothing...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
That's bullshit...

Saddam had ongoing ties to Al Qaida...

Iraq was a fafehaven for Al Qaida and other terrorists...

It's been documented in this forum...


documented in this forum???????Bahahahahhahahahahahhahaahhahahahahaha hahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahhhahaahahahahhah ahahahahaahahaha*fart*hahhahahahahahhaahahahhahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahh


God DAMN that's the funniest thing I've ever read in here :D :D

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
That's bullshit...

Saddam had ongoing ties to Al Qaida...

Iraq was a fafehaven for Al Qaida and other terrorists...

It's been documented in this forum...

Uhuhuhuhuhuh!

Get off the crack and Preperation H ELVIS, they're completey seperate ideological movements. In fact, no such ties existed except for in a partisan's fantasy (and even those hatching the fantasy never beLIEved it);)....

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
...

Saddam had ongoing ties to Al Qaida...

...


What utter BULLSHIT

But even if it were true, that still doesn't excuse the TERRIBLE way this war was planned, and the peace was lost :rolleyes:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Uhuhuhuhuhuh!

Get off the crack and Preperation H ELVIS, they're completey seperate ideological movements. In fact, no such ties existed except for in a partisan's fantasy (and even those hatching the fantasy never beLIEved it);)....


:D :cool:


BTW, E, do you smoke the preparation H, or inject it?

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS








It's been documented in this forum...

















I CAN'T STOP LAUGHING AT THIS LINE :D :D :D :D :D


It's been documented , beeyatch :D :D :p

[ELVIS]

It's true, asswipe...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
It's true, asswipe...

No. No it's not.

In fact SCOOTER LIBBY, the CInAme dropper, kept putting that shit into CHENEY speeches, long after the CIA rejected any such notion of an ATTA-Iraqi intelligence meeting in Prague, CZ...

(TIME Magazine)

[ELVIS]

Fuck you idiots, and read this (http://www.techcentralstation.com/092503F.html)...

Again...:rolleyes:


* Abdul Rahman Yasin was the only member of the al Qaeda cell that detonated the 1993 World Trade Center bomb to remain at large in the Clinton years. He fled to Iraq. U.S. forces recently discovered a cache of documents in Tikrit, Saddam's hometown, that show that Iraq gave Mr. Yasin both a house and monthly salary.

* Bin Laden met at least eight times with officers of Iraq's Special Security Organization, a secret police agency run by Saddam's son Qusay, and met with officials from Saddam's mukhabarat, its external intelligence service, according to intelligence made public by Secretary of State Colin Powell, who was speaking before the United Nations Security Council on February 6, 2003.

* Sudanese intelligence officials told me that their agents had observed meetings between Iraqi intelligence agents and bin Laden starting in 1994, when bin Laden lived in Khartoum.

* Bin Laden met the director of the Iraqi mukhabarat in 1996 in Khartoum, according to Mr. Powell.

* An al Qaeda operative now held by the U.S. confessed that in the mid-1990s, bin Laden had forged an agreement with Saddam's men to cease all terrorist activities against the Iraqi dictator, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* In 1999 the Guardian, a British newspaper, reported that Farouk Hijazi, a senior officer in Iraq's mukhabarat, had journeyed deep into the icy mountains near Kandahar, Afghanistan, in December 1998 to meet with al Qaeda men. Mr. Hijazi is "thought to have offered bin Laden asylum in Iraq," the Guardian reported.

* In October 2000, another Iraqi intelligence operative, Salah Suleiman, was arrested near the Afghan border by Pakistani authorities, according to Jane's Foreign Report, a respected international newsletter. Jane's reported that Suleiman was shuttling between Iraqi intelligence and Ayman al Zawahiri, now al Qaeda's No. 2 man.

(Why are all of those meetings significant? The London Observer reports that FBI investigators cite a captured al Qaeda field manual in Afghanistan, which "emphasizes the value of conducting discussions about pending terrorist attacks face to face, rather than by electronic means.")

* As recently as 2001, Iraq's embassy in Pakistan was used as a "liaison" between the Iraqi dictator and al Qaeda, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Spanish investigators have uncovered documents seized from Yusuf Galan -- who is charged by a Spanish court with being "directly involved with the preparation and planning" of the Sept. 11 attacks -- that show the terrorist was invited to a party at the Iraqi embassy in Madrid. The invitation used his "al Qaeda nom de guerre," London's Independent reports.

* An Iraqi defector to Turkey, known by his cover name as "Abu Mohammed," told Gwynne Roberts of the Sunday Times of London that he saw bin Laden's fighters in camps in Iraq in 1997. At the time, Mohammed was a colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen. He described an encounter at Salman Pak, the training facility southeast of Baghdad. At that vast compound run by Iraqi intelligence, Muslim militants trained to hijack planes with knives -- on a full-size Boeing 707. Col. Mohammed recalls his first visit to Salman Pak this way: "We were met by Colonel Jamil Kamil, the camp manager, and Major Ali Hawas. I noticed that a lot of people were queuing for food. (The major) said to me: 'You'll have nothing to do with these people. They are Osama bin Laden's group and the PKK and Mojahedin-e Khalq.'"

* In 1998, Abbas al-Janabi, a longtime aide to Saddam's son Uday, defected to the West. At the time, he repeatedly told reporters that there was a direct connection between Iraq and al Qaeda.

*The Sunday Times found a Saddam loyalist in a Kurdish prison who claims to have been Dr. Zawahiri's bodyguard during his 1992 visit with Saddam in Baghdad. Dr. Zawahiri was a close associate of bin Laden at the time and was present at the founding of al Qaeda in 1989.

* Following the defeat of the Taliban, almost two dozen bin Laden associates "converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations there," Mr. Powell told the United Nations in February 2003. From their Baghdad base, the secretary said, they supervised the movement of men, materiel and money for al Qaeda's global network.

* In 2001, an al Qaeda member "bragged that the situation in Iraq was 'good,'" according to intelligence made public by Mr. Powell.

* That same year, Saudi Arabian border guards arrested two al Qaeda members entering the kingdom from Iraq.

* Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi oversaw an al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, Mr. Powell told the United Nations. His specialty was poisons. Wounded in fighting with U.S. forces, he sought medical treatment in Baghdad in May 2002. When Zarqawi recovered, he restarted a training camp in northern Iraq. Zarqawi's Iraq cell was later tied to the October 2002 murder of Lawrence Foley, an official of the U.S. Agency for International Development, in Amman, Jordan. The captured assassin confessed that he received orders and funds from Zarqawi's cell in Iraq, Mr. Powell said. His accomplice escaped to Iraq.

*Zarqawi met with military chief of al Qaeda, Mohammed Ibrahim Makwai (aka Saif al-Adel) in Iran in February 2003, according to intelligence sources cited by the Washington Post.

* Mohammad Atef, the head of al Qaeda's military wing until the U.S. killed him in Afghanistan in November 2001, told a senior al Qaeda member now in U.S. custody that the terror network needed labs outside of Afghanistan to manufacture chemical weapons, Mr. Powell said. "Where did they go, where did they look?" said the secretary. "They went to Iraq."

* Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi was sent to Iraq by bin Laden to purchase poison gases several times between 1997 and 2000. He called his relationship with Saddam's regime "successful," Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Mohamed Mansour Shahab, a smuggler hired by Iraq to transport weapons to bin Laden in Afghanistan, was arrested by anti-Hussein Kurdish forces in May, 2000. He later told his story to American intelligence and a reporter for the New Yorker magazine.

* Documents found among the debris of the Iraqi Intelligence Center show that Baghdad funded the Allied Democratic Forces, a Ugandan terror group led by an Islamist cleric linked to bin Laden. According to a London's Daily Telegraph, the organization offered to recruit "youth to train for the jihad" at a "headquarters for international holy warrior network" to be established in Baghdad.

* Mullah Melan Krekar, ran a terror group (the Ansar al-Islam) linked to both bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Mr. Krekar admitted to a Kurdish newspaper that he met bin Laden in Afghanistan and other senior al Qaeda officials. His acknowledged meetings with bin Laden go back to 1988. When he organized Ansar al Islam in 2001 to conduct suicide attacks on Americans, "three bin Laden operatives showed up with a gift of $300,000 'to undertake jihad,'" Newsday reported. Mr. Krekar is now in custody in the Netherlands. His group operated in portion of northern Iraq loyal to Saddam Hussein -- and attacked independent Kurdish groups hostile to Saddam. A spokesman for the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan told a United Press International correspondent that Mr. Krekar's group was funded by "Saddam Hussein's regime in Baghdad."

* After October 2001, hundreds of al Qaeda fighters are believed to have holed up in the Ansar al-Islam's strongholds inside northern Iraq.



:elvis:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Fuck you idiots, and read this (http://www.techcentralstation.com/092503F.html)...

Again...:rolleyes:


* Abdul Rahman Yasin was the only member of the al Qaeda cell that detonated the 1993 World Trade Center bomb to remain at large in the Clinton years. He fled to Iraq. U.S. forces recently discovered a cache of documents in Tikrit, Saddam's hometown, that show that Iraq gave Mr. Yasin both a house and monthly salary.

* Bin Laden met at least eight times with officers of Iraq's Special Security Organization, a secret police agency run by Saddam's son Qusay, and met with officials from Saddam's mukhabarat, its external intelligence service, according to intelligence made public by Secretary of State Colin Powell, who was speaking before the United Nations Security Council on February 6, 2003.

* Sudanese intelligence officials told me that their agents had observed meetings between Iraqi intelligence agents and bin Laden starting in 1994, when bin Laden lived in Khartoum.

* Bin Laden met the director of the Iraqi mukhabarat in 1996 in Khartoum, according to Mr. Powell.

* An al Qaeda operative now held by the U.S. confessed that in the mid-1990s, bin Laden had forged an agreement with Saddam's men to cease all terrorist activities against the Iraqi dictator, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* In 1999 the Guardian, a British newspaper, reported that Farouk Hijazi, a senior officer in Iraq's mukhabarat, had journeyed deep into the icy mountains near Kandahar, Afghanistan, in December 1998 to meet with al Qaeda men. Mr. Hijazi is "thought to have offered bin Laden asylum in Iraq," the Guardian reported.

* In October 2000, another Iraqi intelligence operative, Salah Suleiman, was arrested near the Afghan border by Pakistani authorities, according to Jane's Foreign Report, a respected international newsletter. Jane's reported that Suleiman was shuttling between Iraqi intelligence and Ayman al Zawahiri, now al Qaeda's No. 2 man.

(Why are all of those meetings significant? The London Observer reports that FBI investigators cite a captured al Qaeda field manual in Afghanistan, which "emphasizes the value of conducting discussions about pending terrorist attacks face to face, rather than by electronic means.")

* As recently as 2001, Iraq's embassy in Pakistan was used as a "liaison" between the Iraqi dictator and al Qaeda, Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Spanish investigators have uncovered documents seized from Yusuf Galan -- who is charged by a Spanish court with being "directly involved with the preparation and planning" of the Sept. 11 attacks -- that show the terrorist was invited to a party at the Iraqi embassy in Madrid. The invitation used his "al Qaeda nom de guerre," London's Independent reports.

* An Iraqi defector to Turkey, known by his cover name as "Abu Mohammed," told Gwynne Roberts of the Sunday Times of London that he saw bin Laden's fighters in camps in Iraq in 1997. At the time, Mohammed was a colonel in Saddam's Fedayeen. He described an encounter at Salman Pak, the training facility southeast of Baghdad. At that vast compound run by Iraqi intelligence, Muslim militants trained to hijack planes with knives -- on a full-size Boeing 707. Col. Mohammed recalls his first visit to Salman Pak this way: "We were met by Colonel Jamil Kamil, the camp manager, and Major Ali Hawas. I noticed that a lot of people were queuing for food. (The major) said to me: 'You'll have nothing to do with these people. They are Osama bin Laden's group and the PKK and Mojahedin-e Khalq.'"

* In 1998, Abbas al-Janabi, a longtime aide to Saddam's son Uday, defected to the West. At the time, he repeatedly told reporters that there was a direct connection between Iraq and al Qaeda.

*The Sunday Times found a Saddam loyalist in a Kurdish prison who claims to have been Dr. Zawahiri's bodyguard during his 1992 visit with Saddam in Baghdad. Dr. Zawahiri was a close associate of bin Laden at the time and was present at the founding of al Qaeda in 1989.

* Following the defeat of the Taliban, almost two dozen bin Laden associates "converged on Baghdad and established a base of operations there," Mr. Powell told the United Nations in February 2003. From their Baghdad base, the secretary said, they supervised the movement of men, materiel and money for al Qaeda's global network.

* In 2001, an al Qaeda member "bragged that the situation in Iraq was 'good,'" according to intelligence made public by Mr. Powell.

* That same year, Saudi Arabian border guards arrested two al Qaeda members entering the kingdom from Iraq.

* Abu Musaab al-Zarqawi oversaw an al Qaeda training camp in Afghanistan, Mr. Powell told the United Nations. His specialty was poisons. Wounded in fighting with U.S. forces, he sought medical treatment in Baghdad in May 2002. When Zarqawi recovered, he restarted a training camp in northern Iraq. Zarqawi's Iraq cell was later tied to the October 2002 murder of Lawrence Foley, an official of the U.S. Agency for International Development, in Amman, Jordan. The captured assassin confessed that he received orders and funds from Zarqawi's cell in Iraq, Mr. Powell said. His accomplice escaped to Iraq.

*Zarqawi met with military chief of al Qaeda, Mohammed Ibrahim Makwai (aka Saif al-Adel) in Iran in February 2003, according to intelligence sources cited by the Washington Post.

* Mohammad Atef, the head of al Qaeda's military wing until the U.S. killed him in Afghanistan in November 2001, told a senior al Qaeda member now in U.S. custody that the terror network needed labs outside of Afghanistan to manufacture chemical weapons, Mr. Powell said. "Where did they go, where did they look?" said the secretary. "They went to Iraq."

* Abu Abdullah al-Iraqi was sent to Iraq by bin Laden to purchase poison gases several times between 1997 and 2000. He called his relationship with Saddam's regime "successful," Mr. Powell told the United Nations.

* Mohamed Mansour Shahab, a smuggler hired by Iraq to transport weapons to bin Laden in Afghanistan, was arrested by anti-Hussein Kurdish forces in May, 2000. He later told his story to American intelligence and a reporter for the New Yorker magazine.

* Documents found among the debris of the Iraqi Intelligence Center show that Baghdad funded the Allied Democratic Forces, a Ugandan terror group led by an Islamist cleric linked to bin Laden. According to a London's Daily Telegraph, the organization offered to recruit "youth to train for the jihad" at a "headquarters for international holy warrior network" to be established in Baghdad.

* Mullah Melan Krekar, ran a terror group (the Ansar al-Islam) linked to both bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Mr. Krekar admitted to a Kurdish newspaper that he met bin Laden in Afghanistan and other senior al Qaeda officials. His acknowledged meetings with bin Laden go back to 1988. When he organized Ansar al Islam in 2001 to conduct suicide attacks on Americans, "three bin Laden operatives showed up with a gift of $300,000 'to undertake jihad,'" Newsday reported. Mr. Krekar is now in custody in the Netherlands. His group operated in portion of northern Iraq loyal to Saddam Hussein -- and attacked independent Kurdish groups hostile to Saddam. A spokesman for the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan told a United Press International correspondent that Mr. Krekar's group was funded by "Saddam Hussein's regime in Baghdad."

* After October 2001, hundreds of al Qaeda fighters are believed to have holed up in the Ansar al-Islam's strongholds inside northern Iraq.



:elvis:

Well you fucking idiot, where did you get this? www.horseshitforwar.com?

[Nickdfresh]

Wednesday, 5 February, 2003, 10:05 GMT
Leaked report rejects Iraqi al-Qaeda link
Osama Bin Laden
Bin Laden 'does not agree with Saddam's regime'
There are no current links between the Iraqi regime and the al-Qaeda network, according to an official British intelligence report seen by BBC News.

The classified document, written by defence intelligence staff three weeks ago, says there has been contact between the two in the past.

His [Bin Laden's] aims are in ideological conflict with present day Iraq

Leaked intelligence document
But it assessed that any fledgling relationship foundered due to mistrust and incompatible ideologies.

That conclusion flatly contradicts one of the main charges laid against Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein by the United States and Britain - that he has cultivated contacts with the group blamed for the 11 September attacks.

The report emerges even as Washington was calling Saddam a liar for denying, in a television interview with former Labour MP and minister Tony Benn, that he had any links to al-Qaeda.

Peace prospects

It also comes on the day US Secretary of State Colin Powell goes to the United Nations Security Council to make the case that Iraq has failed to live up to the demands of the world community.

Foreign Secretary Jack Straw is also ratcheting up the rhetoric in the ongoing crisis over Saddam's alleged weapons of mass destruction, saying the prospect of a peaceful outcome was "diminishing" by the day.

He said he could not believe the Iraqi regime would be "this stupid" not to disarm.

If we had a relationship with al-Qaeda and we believed in that relationship, we wouldn't be ashamed to admit it

Saddam Hussein
Saddam denies al-Qaeda links - click here for full story
The defence intelligence staff document, seen by BBC defence correspondent Andrew Gilligan, is classified Top Secret and was sent to UK Prime Minister Tony Blair and other senior members of the government.

It says al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden views Iraq's ruling Ba'ath party as running contrary to his religion, calling it an "apostate regime".

"His aims are in ideological conflict with present day Iraq," it says.

Gilligan says that in recent days intelligence sources have told the BBC there is growing disquiet at the way their work is being politicised to support the case for war on Iraq.

He said: "This almost unprecedented leak may be a shot across the politicians' bows."

Iraqi co-operation

Mr Straw insisted that intelligence had shown that the Iraqi regime appeared to be allowing a permissive environment "in which al-Qaeda is able to operate".

I personally had not believed that the Iraqi regime could be this stupid

Jack Straw
"Certainly we have some evidence of links between al-Qaeda and various people in Iraq," he told BBC Radio 4's Today programme.

But he conceded: "What we don't know, and the prime minister and I have made it very clear, is the extent of those links.

"What we also know, however, is that the Iraqi regime have been up to their necks in the pursuit of terrorism generally."

He added: "The use of force to enforce the will of the UN, now, I'm afraid, is more probable, but it is not inevitable and the choice essentially is one for Saddam Hussein and his regime."

UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw
It seems increasingly clear that Saddam will never voluntarily relinquish his weapons

Jack Straw
French President Jacques Chirac, as he met Mr Blair on Tuesday, called for UN weapons inspectors to be given more time, saying "there is still much to be done in the way of disarmament by peaceful means".

But Mr Straw said "endless" calls for more time were "futile" and risked being a "cop-out".

Both the US and UK are pushing for a second UN Security Council resolution soon, which could authorise force against Iraq.

Colin Powell has said the dossier of evidence against Iraq he is presenting to the Security Council will be "a straightforward, sober and compelling demonstration" that Baghdad is deceiving UN weapons inspectors and failing to disarm.

TV interview

Saddam Hussein himself denied on Tuesday having any weapons of mass destruction.

He told Mr Benn in the interview broadcast by Channel 4 News: "These weapons do not come in small pills that you can hide in your pocket.

"These are weapons of mass destruction and it is easy to work out if Iraq has them or not."

Denying any connection with al-Qaeda, he said: "If we had a relationship with al-Qaeda and we believed in that relationship, we wouldn't be ashamed to admit it."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2727471.stm

[Cathedral]

Elvis, it is a waste of time to argue, just start buying guns because it won't be long until we are shooting each other in the streets over this shit.
I'm serious about this, the next step is all out violence, and it's coming to a twon near you, me, everybody, everybody.....

"Everybody needs somebody to love, somone to love, sugar to kiss, sweetheart to miss, i need you you you, I need you you you, I need you you you.............We're on a mission from God!

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
It's true, asswipe...


LMMFAO :D :D :D

Thanks, E.

I haven't laughed this hard in weeks.


asswipe :p


It's documented, asswipe

Hoo boy :cool:

[Nickdfresh]

Al Qaeda-Hussein Link Is Dismissed

By Walter Pincus and Dana Milbank
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, June 17, 2004; Page A01

The Sept. 11 commission reported yesterday that it has found no "collaborative relationship" between Iraq and al Qaeda, challenging one of the Bush administration's main justifications for the war in Iraq.


Along with the contention that Saddam Hussein was stockpiling weapons of mass destruction, President Bush, Vice President Cheney and other top administration officials have often asserted that there were extensive ties between Hussein's government and Osama bin Laden's terrorist network; earlier this year, Cheney said evidence of a link was "overwhelming."

But the report of the commission's staff, based on its access to all relevant classified information, said that there had been contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda but no cooperation. In yesterday's hearing of the panel, formally known as the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States, a senior FBI official and a senior CIA analyst concurred with the finding.

The staff report said that bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq" while in Sudan through 1996, but that "Iraq apparently never responded" to a bin Laden request for help in 1994. The commission cited reports of contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda after bin Laden went to Afghanistan in 1996, adding, "but they do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship. Two senior bin Laden associates have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al Qaeda and Iraq. We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al Qaeda cooperated on attacks against the United States."

The finding challenges a belief held by large numbers of Americans about al Qaeda's ties to Hussein. According to a Harris poll in late April, a plurality of Americans, 49 percent to 36 percent, believe "clear evidence that Iraq was supporting al Qaeda has been found."

As recently as Monday, Cheney said in a speech that Hussein "had long-established ties with al Qaeda." Bush, asked on Tuesday to verify or qualify that claim, defended it by pointing to Abu Musab Zarqawi, who has taken credit for a wave of attacks in Iraq.

Bush's Democratic challenger, Sen. John F. Kerry (Mass.), sought to profit from the commission's finding. "The administration misled America, and the administration reached too far," Kerry told Michigan Public Radio. "I believe that the 9/11 report, the early evidence, is that they're going to indicate that we didn't have the kind of terrorists links that this administration was asserting. I think that's a very, very serious finding."

A Bush campaign spokesman countered that Kerry himself has said Hussein "supported and harbored terrorist groups." And Cheney's spokesman pointed to a 2002 letter written by CIA Director George J. Tenet stating that "we have solid reporting of senior level contacts between Iraq and al Qaeda going back a decade" and "credible information indicates that Iraq and al Qaeda have discussed safe haven and reciprocal non-aggression." Cheney's office also pointed to a 2003 Tenet statement calling Zarqawi "a senior al Qaeda terrorist associate."

White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the commission finding of long-standing high-level contacts between al Qaeda and Iraq justified the administration's earlier assertions. "We stand behind what was said publicly," he said.

Bush, speaking to troops in Tampa yesterday, did not mention an Iraq-al Qaeda link, saying only that Iraq "sheltered terrorist groups." That was a significantly milder version of the allegations administration officials have made since shortly after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks.

In late 2001, Cheney said it was "pretty well confirmed" that Sept. 11 mastermind Mohamed Atta met with a senior Iraqi intelligence official before the attacks, in April 2000 in Prague; Cheney later said the meeting could not be proved or disproved.

Bush, in his speech aboard an aircraft carrier on May 1, 2003, asserted: "The liberation of Iraq is a crucial advance in the campaign against terror. We've removed an ally of al Qaeda and cut off a source of terrorist funding."

In September, Cheney said on NBC's "Meet the Press": "If we're successful in Iraq . . . then we will have struck a major blow right at the heart of the base, if you will, the geographic base of the terrorists who had us under assault now for many years, but most especially on 9/11."

Speaking about Iraq's alleged links to al Qaeda and the Sept. 11 attacks, Cheney connected Iraq to the 1993 World Trade Center bombing by saying that newly found Iraqi intelligence files in Baghdad showed that a participant in the bombing returned to Iraq and "probably also received financing from the Iraqi government as well as safe haven." He added: "The Iraqi government or the Iraqi intelligence service had a relationship with al Qaeda that stretched back through most of the decade of the '90s."

Shortly after Cheney asserted these links, Bush contradicted him, saying: "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the September 11th." But Bush added: "There's no question that Saddam Hussein had al Qaeda ties."


In January, Cheney repeated his view that Iraq was tied to al Qaeda, saying that "there's overwhelming evidence" of an Iraq-al Qaeda connection. He said he was "very confident there was an established relationship there."

The commission staff, in yesterday's report, said that while bin Laden was in Sudan between 1991 and 1996, a senior Iraqi intelligence officer made three visits to Sudan, and that he had a meeting with bin Laden in 1994. Bin Laden was reported to have sought training camps and assistance in getting weapons, "but Iraq never responded," the staff said. The report said that bin Laden "at one time sponsored anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan."

As for the Atta meeting in Prague mentioned by Cheney, the commission staff concluded: "We do not believe that such a meeting occurred." It cited FBI photographic and telephone evidence, along with Czech and U.S. investigations, as well as reports from detainees, including the Iraqi official with whom Atta was alleged to have met. On the 1993 trade center bombing, the staff found "substantial uncertainty" about whether bin Laden and al Qaeda were involved.

At yesterday's hearing, commissioner Fred F. Fielding questioned the staff's finding of no apparent cooperation between bin Laden and Hussein. He pointed to a sentence in the first sealed indictment in 2001 of the al Qaeda members accused of the bombings of U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania; that sentence said al Qaeda reached an understanding with Iraq that they would not work against each other and would cooperate on acquiring arms.

Patrick J. Fitzgerald, now a U.S. attorney in Illinois, who oversaw the African bombing case, told the commission that reference was dropped in a superceding indictment because investigators could not confirm al Qaeda's relationship with Iraq as they had done with its ties to Iran, Sudan and Hezbollah. The original material came from an al Qaeda defector who told prosecutors that what he had heard was secondhand.

The staff report on Iraq was brief. Though not confirming any Iraqi collaboration with al Qaeda, it did not specifically address two of the other pieces of evidence the administration has offered to link Iraq to al Qaeda: Zarqawi's Tawhid organization and the Ansar al-Islam group.

In October 2002, Bush described Zarqawi, a Palestinian born in Jordan, as "one very senior al Qaeda leader who received medical treatment in Baghdad this year, and who has been associated with planning for chemical and biological attacks."

Zarqawi wrote a January 2003 letter to bin Laden's lieutenants, intercepted at the Iraqi border, saying that if al Qaeda adopted his approach in Iraq, he would swear "fealty to you [bin Laden] publicly and in the news media."

In March, in a statement to the Senate Armed Services Committee, Tenet described Zarqawi's network as among groups having "links" to al Qaeda but with its own "autonomous leadership . . . own targets [and] they plan their own attacks."

Although Zarqawi may have cooperated with al Qaeda in the past, officials said it is increasingly clear that he has been operating independently of bin Laden's group and has his own network of operatives.

The other group, Ansar al-Islam, began in 2001 among Kurdish Sunni Islamic fundamentalists in northern Iraq, fighting against the two secular Kurdish groups that operated under the protection of the United States. At one point, bin Laden supported Ansar, as did Zarqawi, who is believed to have visited their area more than once. Tenet referred to Ansar as one of the Sunni groups that had benefited from al Qaeda links.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A47812-2004Jun16.html

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Fuck you idiots,
:elvis:

Way to take the high road, Brian will be proud. ;)



Document this , beeyatch

LMMFAO:D

[Cathedral]

Lounge, can I buy you a coke?
It might lead to a song though, so losen up the vocal chords real quick, ;)

[Nickdfresh]

9/11 panel sees no link between Iraq, al-Qaida
Commission opens final hearing before release of report

Staff members of the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States testify as the independent panel opens its final public hearing on the attacks Wednesday in Washington.

• No connection seen
Douglas MacEachin, a staff member of the independent commission investigating the Sept. 11 terror attacks, testifies there is "no credible evidence" that Iraq cooperated with al-Qaida in the plot against the United States.

Updated: 6:48 p.m. ET June 16, 2004

WASHINGTON - The commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks reported Wednesday that Osama bin Laden met with a top Iraqi official in 1994 but found “no credible evidence” of a link between Iraq and al-Qaida in attacks against the United States.

In a report based on research and interviews by the commission staff, the panel said that bin Laden made overtures to toppled Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein for assistance, as he did with leaders in Sudan, Iran, Afghanistan and elsewhere as he sought to build an Islamic army.

The report said that bin Laden explored possible cooperation with Saddam at the urging of allies in Sudan eager to protect their own ties to Iraq, even though the al-Qaida leader had previously provided support for “anti-Saddam Islamists in Iraqi Kurdistan.”
Story continues below ↓ advertisement

Bin Laden ceased that support in the early 1990s, opening the way for a meeting between the al-Qaida leader and a senior Iraqi intelligence officer in 1994 in Sudan, the report said. At the meeting, bin Laden is said to have requested space to establish training camps in Iraq as well as Iraqi assistance in procuring weapons, but Iraq apparently never responded, the staff report said.

No ‘collaborative relationship’ seen
It said that reports of subsequent contacts between Iraq and al-Qaida after bin Laden had returned to Afghanistan “do not appear to have resulted in a collaborative relationship,” and added that two unidentified senior bin Laden associates "have adamantly denied that any ties existed between al-Qaida and Iraq."

The report, the 15th released by the commission staff, concluded, “We have no credible evidence that Iraq and al-Qaida cooperated on attacks against the United States.”

Sept. 11 plot initially called for 10 planes

Fred Fielding, a Republican member of the commission, prodded witnesses about their conclusion, citing a 1998 indictment of bin Laden that alleged links with the then-Iraqi leader.

But U.S. Attorney Patrick J. Fitzgerald of Illinois said that while such claims were contained in the original indictment, they were dropped when later charges were filed.

The panel's findings were released two days after Vice President Dick Cheney asserted that Saddam had "long-established ties" with al-Qaida.

Bush says al-Zarqawi ‘best evidence’
President Bush defended the statement in a news conference Tuesday, saying the presence in Iraq of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, who is accused of trying to disrupt the transfer of sovereignty as well as last month's decapitation of American Nicholas Berg, provides "the best evidence of connection to al-Qaida affiliates and al-Qaida."

In making the case for war in Iraq, Bush administration officials frequently cited what they said were Saddam's decade-long contacts with al-Qaida operatives. They stopped short of claiming that Iraq was directly involved in the Sept. 11 attacks, but critics say Bush officials left that impression with the American public.

The White House had no immediate comment on the report's conclusion, but it drew a fresh attack on Bush from Sen. John Kerry, the Democratic presidential candidate.

"The administration misled America and the administration reached too far," the Massachusetts Democrat told Michigan NPR in an interview.

Meeting between hijacker, Iraqi agent discounted
In a second staff report released Wednesday, the commission staff said that Mohamed Atta, the pilot of one of the planes that struck the World Trade Center and leader of the 19 hijackers, never met with Iraqi agents in Prague, Czech Republic. That purported meeting also has been cited as evidence of a possible al-Qaida connection to Iraq.

“We do not believe that such a meeting occurred,” the report said.

The release of the reports came as the 10-member commission opened its final public hearing on the attacks. The hearing, being held Wednesday and Thursday, will cover the Sept. 11 plot and the emergency response by the Federal Aviation Administration and U.S. air defenses. Commissioners say they will delve into the actions of the nation’s top leaders during critical moments of the attacks.

The panel intends to issue a final report in July on the hijackings on Sept. 11, 2001 that killed nearly 3,000, destroyed the World Trade Centers in New York and damaged the Pentagon outside Washington. A fourth plane commandeered by terrorists crashed in the countryside in Pennsylvania.

At the final public hearing, the commission was planning to focus on the nation’s air defense, details of the plot and confusion and miscommunication among agencies during the attacks, hindering a response.

How al-Qaida became ‘fast-acting, poisonous’
“We’re going to talk about the evolution of al-Qaida and how they moved from one type of organization in the late 1980s to a more fast-acting, poisonous organization in the 1990s, more spread out and dispersed,” said Timothy Roemer, a Democratic commissioner and former representative from Indiana.

“We’ll be looking at the timeline as to whether or not we had an opportunity to deflect any of the airliners, and how decisions were made by the highest people in government,” he said.

In its report, the commission staff pieced together information on the development of bin Laden’s network, from the far-flung training camps in Afghanistan and elsewhere, to funding from “well-placed financial facilitators and diversions of funds from Islamic charities.”

Reports that bin Laden had a huge personal fortune to finance acts of terror are overstated, the report said.

The description of the training camp operations contained elements of faint, grudging praise.

“A worldwide jihad needed terrorists who could bomb embassies or hijack airliners, but it also needed foot soldiers for the Taliban in its war against the Northern Alliance, and guerrillas who could shoot down Russian helicopters in Chechnya or ambush Indian units in Kashmir,” it said.

According to one unnamed senior al-Qaida associate, various ideas were floated by mujahedeen in Afghanistan, the commission said. The options included taking over a launcher and forcing Russian scientists to fire a nuclear missile at the United States, mounting mustard gas or cyanide attacks against Jewish areas in Iraq or releasing poison gas into the air conditioning system of a targeted building.

“Last but not least, hijacking an aircraft and crashing it into an airport or nearby city,” it said.


The commission also reiterated an oft-repeated warning by the Bush administration, saying al-Qaida remains poised to attack the United States in a devastating chemical, biological or "dirty bomb" attack.

Since the Sept. 11 attacks, the terror group has become much more dispersed, with less funding following the arrests or deaths of key financiers. But the group has learned to operate on much smaller sums than the estimated $30 million spent annually prior to Sept. 11, 2001, the report said.

Al-Qaida still ‘actively striving to attack’ U.S.
"Al-Qaida is actively striving to attack the United States and inflict mass casualties," the report said. The report noted in particular the group's "ambitious" biological weapons program and efforts in 1994 to purchase uranium.

“Al-Qaida and other extremist groups will likely continue to exploit leaks of national security information in the media, open-source information on techniques such as mixing explosives, and advances in electronics," it said.

In the report, the commission points to a series of attacks on the United States or its allies as early as 1992 that U.S. intelligence would determine by the late 1990s were linked to bin Laden or his terrorist group.

They included a December 1992 explosion outside two hotels in Aden, Yemen; the October 1993 killing of 18 U.S. soldiers in Mogadishu, Somalia; a November 1995 car bombing in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia; and the June 1995 explosion at the Khobar Towers apartment complex in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia.

Bin Laden's ties to the 1993 World Trade Center bombing and a failed plot to blow up commercial aircraft in 1994 in Manila, Philippines, are unclear, but they offered significant warning signs that Islamic terrorists were intent on demolishing American symbols and inflicting mass casualties, the panel said.

"What is clear is that these plots were major benchmarks in the evolving Islamist threat to the United States and foreshadowed later attacks that were indisputably carried out by al Qaida under bin Laden's direction," the report stated.

Among those called testify Wednesday were field agents from the FBI and CIA, as well as Patrick Fitzgerald, a former attorney in New York who prosecuted alleged terrorists in the 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center and the 1998 bombings of two U.S. embassies in Africa.

German prosecutor cancels at last minute
Missing from Wednesday’s schedule is German prosecutor Matthias Krauss, who canceled at the last minute. Krauss, who investigated the al-Qaida cell in Hamburg, Germany, had been expected to highlight problems with U.S. intelligence-sharing. The reason for his cancellation was not immediately clear.

On Thursday, the panel will hear from Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, as well as officials from the FAA and the North American Aerospace Defense Command. They will discuss whether a military response could have limited the Sept. 11 destruction by shooting down the airliners.

Officials have acknowledged the fighters did not get airborne as quickly as possible. NORAD and FAA officials say that since Sept. 11 they have established new chains of communication and increased the number of warplanes on alert.

The commission, facing a July 26 deadline for a final report, is winding down its 1½-year investigation after interviewing more than 1,000 witnesses, including President Bush, and reviewing more than 2 million documents.

Communication gaps, missteps detailed
Several commissioners have told the Associated Press that drafts of the final report detail the many communication gaps and missteps by FBI and intelligence officials in detecting the plot. But they said the drafts refrain from placing blame on individuals in the Bush and Clinton administrations to avoid charges of partisanship.

That troubles some relatives of Sept. 11 victims, still seeking closure nearly three years after the attacks. They sent a letter to commissioners this week asking for tough questioning and accountability in the final hearing, saying the truth should come before politics.

“We’re going in with our hearts in our mouths,” said Mindy Kleinberg, whose husband, Alan, was killed in the World Trade Center collapse. “You pray. You know it’s going to be emotional. We just hope on top of the emotion, we don’t leave frustrated again.”
MSNBC.com's Mike Brunker and the Associated Press contributed to this report.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5223932/

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Lounge, can I buy you a coke?
It might lead to a song though, so losen up the vocal chords real quick, ;)

I'd like to teach, the world to sing

In perfect Harmony..........


;)

I love you, man :D

[Nickdfresh]

posted November 7, 2005 at 11:00 a.m.

Prewar report cast doubt on Iraq-Al Qaeda connection
Also, British newspaper says Blair's "reliable source" on Niger connection was probably a discredited Italian spy.

By Tom Regan | csmonitor.com (http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1107/dailyUpdate.html)

A newly declassified document from the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) shows that, as early as February 2002, there were doubts about an informer who claimed that there was a strong link between Al Qaeda and Iraq. The Associated Press reports that the [Bush] administration was alerted that an "Al Qaeda member in US custody probably was lying about links between the terrorist organization and Iraq."

The document from February 2002 showed that the agency questioned the reliability of Al Qaeda senior military trainer Ibn al-Shaykh al-Libi. He could not name any Iraqis involved in the effort or identify any chemical or biological materials or cite where the training took place, the report said. The agency concluded that al-Libi probably misled the interrogators deliberately, and he recanted the statements in January, according to the document made public by Senator Carl Levin, top Democrat [of Michigan] on the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Senator Levin posted excerpts of the report on his website, including a section from the report that read, "Saddam's regime is intensely secular and is wary of Islamic revolutionary movements. Moreover, Baghdad is unlikely to provide assistance to a group it cannot control." Reuters reports, however, that President Bush, Vice President Cheney, Secretary of State Colin Powell, and other administration officials all mentioned Mr. Libi's input as "credible" evidence that Iraq was training Al Qaeda members. They did not mention him by name at the time. Libi recanted his testimony in January of 2004.

CNN reports that Levin charged that the new evidence showed that the administration continued to accuse Iraq of giving biological and chemical weapons training to Al Qaeda members long after the source of that information had been discredited. And Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D) of West Virginia said "knowing what I know now," he would not have supported the 2002 Congressional resolution that authorized military action against Iraq.

Rockefeller told CNN's "Late Edition" that al-Libi was "an entirely unreliable individual upon whom the White House was placing substantial intelligence trust." He said Sunday's disclosure was another reason the Intelligence Committee needs to wrap up a promised investigation into how policymakers used intelligence data to push for war. The panel's initial probe focused on the quality of the intelligence and not how policymakers used it.

"That is a classic example of a lack of accountability to the American people," Rockefeller said.

Pentagon spokesman Lawrence Di Rita said, however, the report Levin was quoting was a single document "out of context, without the analysis or any other indication as to how it may have factored in." In an interview with CNN, he called its release "irresponsible and ironic, given the underlying allegation that this selected release is intended to address, namely someone's perception that intelligence was used selectively."

The Los Angeles Times reports that the DIA document was made available to the White House, the Pentagon and other agencies, but "it is not clear whether the Senate intelligence panel had access to it."

Meanwhile, another cornerstone of the prewar intelligence that was used to legitimize the war against Iraq continued to further unravel. Last week, Italian intelligence officials named Rocco Martino, an "occasional spy," as the source of the forged documents that indicated that Iraq was trying to buy uranium from Niger. While the US has now said that the Niger information was false, the British government has continued to maintain that the information it received about Niger was credible because it has come from "a foreign intelligence" source. It was the British report that was cited by President Bush in his January 2003 state of the union address.

The British newspaper The Independent, however, reported Sunday that is very likely that the British information on Niger came from Martino. The Independent says Martino had a meeting with Secret Intelligence Service in London as early as the autumn of 2001.

In October 2001, [the Italian military intelligence service] Sismi sent its British and American counterparts a dossier on alleged Iraqi attempts to buy uranium from Niger. Whether Rocco Martino delivered it to MI6 headquarters in Vauxhall Cross, as some Italian reports claim, is not clear.

But officials who have examined the British and Italian documents say that some of the same text in these early reports showed up later in the forged documents. And according to Mr. Martino, he approached the British Embassy in Brussels in January of 2003 saying that he had information on Iraq, Niger, and uranium. Both Martino and Gen. Nicolo Pollari of SISMI have said that Martino was working for French intelligence as the time (on a freelance basis) and that this could be behind Britain's claim that a "separate intelligence agency" was the source of the Niger document.

Finally, Knight Ridder reports that, contrary to Italian denials last week, US officials say that SISMI did pass on "bogus allegations to the United States of an Iraqi effort to buy uranium ore from the African nation of Niger for a nuclear bomb program."

Four US officials said the Italian military intelligence agency known as SISMI passed three reports to the CIA station in Rome between October 2001 and March 2002 outlining an alleged deal for Iraq to buy uranium ore, known as yellowcake, from Niger. Yellowcake is refined into the uranium fuel that powers nuclear weapons. The US officials spoke on condition of anonymity because portions of the matter remain classified.

One of the reports passed by SISMI contained language that turned out to have been lifted verbatim from crudely forged documents that outlined the purported uranium-ore deal, the US officials said.

The Independent writes that some Italian media reports have accused General Pollari of working with a group of American neoconservatives to make sure the now discredited "Niger connection" made its way to the highest levels of the Bush administration.

[LoungeMachine]

Well, E.

I guess we can now say it's been "well documented in this forum" that NickyD just blew some major fucking holes in your bullshit.


How'd ya like dem apples ?

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I'd like to teach, the world to sing

In perfect Harmony..........


;)

I love you, man :D

And I Love You, But you're not getting my Bud Light, lmmfao...

[ODShowtime]

It's just common sense. Why would a localized gangster try to help a religious zealot who advocated taking over the entire continent?

They're natural enemies.

[ELVIS]

Believe what you want...:rolleyes:

[FORD]

Just for the record, Elvis' "links" came from the professional Republican spin factory "DCI Group". These fools make NewsHax look credible.

[ELVIS]

Ummhummm...

[Cathedral]

I still luv ya, E...we know whats right and who's gonna eat the crow down the road. ;)

[ELVIS]

Well, I'm not gonna be one of those people who sit back and let liberals rewrite history...

Fucking scum...


:elvis:

[jacksmar]

"Al-Qaida is actively striving to attack the United States and inflict mass casualties," -
Nickdfresh.

I read everything but came away with this.

BTW, there's a new Wendy's in northern Iraq. The violence is in just a few areas.

The guys serving in the US military have a cold beer waiting on them back here in the US. On me.

[blueturk]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Well, I'm not gonna be one of those people who sit back and let liberals rewrite history...

Fucking scum...


:elvis:

Rewrite history??? Give me a fucking break! Pathetically premature " Mission Accomplished" photo-ops and medals for the people who helped plan and support an ongoing war are just two of the ways your wool-covered leader has tried to INVENT history. Fucking sheep....

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Believe what you want...:rolleyes:

Like in the 9/11 threads, I believe what the evidence tells me, not what I WANT, or was told, to beLIEve!

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Well, I'm not gonna be one of those people who sit back and let liberals rewrite history...

Fucking scum...


:elvis:

Fuck you man. Who are you calling "scum"?

Talk about rewriting history...

HOW MANY FUCKING REASONS HAS THAT COCKSUCKER GIVEN US FOR THAT BULLSHIT INVASION?

WHERE ARE THE FUCKING FLOWERS?

You're a god-damn bea-brained idiot. I don't know how you ever figured out how to switch on your computer in the first place.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by jacksmar
[BThe guys serving in the US military have a cold beer waiting on them back here in the US. On me. [/B]

Great, who cares if they come home to a broken family, with a shattered mind, an empty bank account, and no support from the government. It was worth it since the main objective of the war, making a huge profit and igniting a civil war, will be achieved.

MISSION ACCOMPLISHED

As long as they get a bud from you it's all good, right?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by jacksmar
"Al-Qaida is actively striving to attack the United States and inflict mass casualties," -
Nickdfresh.

I read everything but came away with this.


That's because it's ALL YOU WANT TO SEE in your black and white little world.

First of all, that's not MY quote...Al Qaida is overrated...

DONALD RUMSFELD also once said that there were huge, hi-tech underground bunkers in Afghanistan filled with well-trained and equipped al Qaida warriors.

Oh wait, they didn't really ever exist...

Go ahead, and spend billion$ tragi-comically fighting, in the wrong place & with the wrong methods, a threat that largely no longer exists...



BTW, there's a new Wendy's in northern Iraq. The violence is in just a few areas.


Oh, you mean the area that has been controlled by KURDS for like 15-years now? How impressive.:rolleyes:

Violence in a few areas? You mean like the "frontlines" of a conflict, or like in the "no-go" areas of VIETNAM. That's usually the case in wars... Thanks for the typical bullshit, Republican Neo Con talking points though.:)

I wonder how a WENDY's would do with our "allies" in Sadr City?


The guys serving in the US military have a cold beer waiting on them back here in the US. On me.

Unfortunately, the ones in IRAQ don't...

I don't consider the opening of a fast food franchise to be any great victory either...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Well, I'm not gonna be one of those people who sit back and let liberals rewrite history...

Fucking scum...


:elvis:


:rolleyes:

I love when you show off your high Christian values


Jesus must be so proud of you.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Well, I'm not gonna be one of those people who sit back and let liberals rewrite history...

Fucking scum...


:elvis:

It isn't those on this board who are trying to re-write history, E.
They just do what they accuse us of doing which is believe what someone tells them in pretty articles that are supported by their own conspiracies.
The proof is in the lack of their own opinions and the copy and pasting of someone else's, constantly. and it's no different than what's on the tube, all negative.

I'm not gullible enough to take anyone but a soldiers word for anything and i'm not worried about history at all, it will be fine.
if people choose to follow them we'll just have to set extra places at the table serving crow....don't fret it, bro.

Remember, there is a day when our troops will come home and i guarentee you they (the libs) are not ready for what they'll have to say about it. after all, it is the troops they are really selling short, not us bea-on's on a message board.

Gotta go, take care!

[ODShowtime]

e is just regurgitating Cheney's talking points from this week. Truly pathetic.

Oh, so the war is going well now?

It was fought on sound strategic thinking?

THe insurgency was anticipated and planned for?

Give me a break! Cat you know better. This war is doing our troops a grave disservice.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
e is just regurgitating Cheney's talking points from this week. Truly pathetic.

Oh, so the war is going well now?

It was fought on sound strategic thinking?

THe insurgency was anticipated and planned for?

Give me a break! Cat you know better. This war is doing our troops a grave disservice.

No war ever goes well, and it's idiotic to think that any country can put a "plan" together that anticipates everything...maybe in a perfect world, or even a dreamed up world, but not in reality, OD.

I can't argue someone else's opinion, man, only my own.
And i haven't seen any stories from either side that give me enough confidence to go off blowing their horns for them.

That's why i began taking the opportunity to discuss the issue with soldiers that have been there and you know what, they have a different opinion than some suit in washington, or journalists looking to sensationalize a story to sell papers, or people on message boards.

Bush lost my support for the ever changing reasons they are even there in the first place along with many other reasons, but all of that doesn't change the fact that they are there and must finish the job at hand, which may i remind you, the majority of them agree with and are proud to be doing.

The troops are being done a great disservice, i agree with that, but not for the reasons you state.
They are being done a great disservice by all of the partisan political bickering that has engulfed all of us in civilian society because we jump onto flashy articles and journalistic miss-information when the true reality is that neither of us knows what the fuck we're talking about when we engage in these personal attacks tooting the horns of those we shouldn't be trusting in the first damn place.

Do you think the Insurgents aren't up on what is being said across the Nation and in Washington?
Do you believe for a second that they aren't looking to use the situation against us to force political collapse so we have to turn tail and run?
Then you and everyone else who harps on this war and the progress of our troops, you're playing into their hands and it only keeps them fighting and killing our troops one day longer and so on and so on.

But Od, let's say that I agree with you 100% that everything you say is true, does that help them dodge a bullet or a road side bomb?

No, it doesn't.

But let me ask you straight up....Do you believe we can win the war in Iraq?

[Nickdfresh]

BTW, I rarely "cut n' paste" opinion or op-ed articles. I cunt n' paste legitimate news...

All the actual news you don't want to hear (or face).

No conspiracy stuff. Rarely any partisan websites...

Just major papers and networks...

90% of the reasons given as to why we went there are lies...


So rationalize the death of American troops however you have to, just stop coming at me with the same ol' tired 'al Qaida and all our enemies were in Iraq' stuff. It's bullshit.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Cathedral
No war ever goes well, and it's idiotic to think that any country can put a "plan" together that anticipates everything...maybe in a perfect world, or even a dreamed up world, but not in reality, OD.

I think it would be obvious that gorilla war would erupt. Look at the neighbors. Look at the culture.

But let me ask you straight up....Do you believe we can win the war in Iraq?

No. We can roll pretty much any country in the world. But this war was never meant to be "won." This is only the beginning of the plan.

Either that or gw&friends are so incompetent that they got us into a situation in which there is no viable political solution.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
BTW, I rarely "cut n' paste" opinion or op-ed articles. I cunt n' paste legitimate news...

All the actual news you don't want to hear (or face).

No conspiracy stuff. Rarely any partisan websites...

Just major papers and networks...

90% of the reasons given as to why we went there are lies...


So rationalize the death of American troops however you have to, just stop coming at me with the same ol' tired 'al Qaida and all our enemies were in Iraq' stuff. It's bullshit.

Settle down there, Trigger, lol, I don't know what to believe or who to have faith in, except our fighting men and women. and don't insult me by trying to insinuate that i'm rationalizing anyone's death, that just isn't true.
I'm just as confused as the next sane american and i won't be boxed into a corner as if my position was clear, it isn't to me so it can't be to you.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ODShowtime
No. We can roll pretty much any country in the world. But this war was never meant to be "won." This is only the beginning of the plan.

Either that or gw&friends are so incompetent that they got us into a situation in which there is no viable political solution.

Al i can say is that i'm very sorry you have such a lack of faith in our troops.
I'll go out on a limb and predict that this war will be won and Iraq will be better off in the end.
What puzzles me is how you conclude that it was never meant to be won, i just don't understand that comment or how you can be so sure.

If you disagree with that, then we'll just agree to disagree.

[FORD]

You want to know what the reality of this fucking sick joke of a war is??

As if the 2000+ names you read about in the newspaper aren't bad enough, there are many whose name will never be counted among that number, or whose names will never be on the inevitable wall built in Washington DC (should such a city even exist after the BCE is finally evicted)

Here's the story of one such "non-existent casualty" as posted over at DU....


This summer I posted about a young Army Lt. my wife and I met at a wedding. He was headed to Iraq within the week. As an ex-grunt, I struck up a conversation with him. I mostly just wanted to tell him to keep his head down, but the conversation evolved. I learned he was a Kerry supporter who didn't buy any of Bush's bullshit rationales for this war. But he told me that the civilian leadership of our nation was sending him to fight, and as a professional, he would go and do all that he could to ensure that the members of his platoon would make it home safely.
About three weeks after the initial post, I posted an update. The young man was in Walter Reed, missing his right eye, most of his right arm, and facing extensive reconstructive surgery for severe thoracic trauma. I visited him once, but always seemed to find a reason not to return. Eventually, he was transferred to a facility closer to his Pennsylvania home, and I never saw him again. I will regret that for a long time.
This will be my final update. A half an hour ago I received a call from the friend at whose wedding I met the young man. On Thursday, during a day trip from the hospital, he wheeled himself into the bathroom, put a 9 mm pistol in his mouth, and pulled the trigger. If they ever build a wall, he won't be on it. He doesn't even count as a casualty of this war. But the next time you see the KIA number, add one to it.

I wouldn't want the job of trying to explain to this man's family what the fuck he's dead for. And I know that George Chimp Jr and Donald Rumsfeld don't have the fucking balls to do so.

Any volunteers, Busheep? Who wants to tell families like this what NON EXISTENT GODDAMN FUCKING USELESS "MISSION" WE HAVE TO COMPLETE????

[Cathedral]

He's dead because he swallowed a bullet after surviving a war, telling them the truth would be the best thing to do.
And he didn't die in action so him not being included in that tally isn't unusual.
I know you'll take this post as cold hearted, but that isn't my intention at all.

[Cathedral]

In addition, It saddens me to think how selfless this guy was to put such high value and concern on the lives of his platoon without placing any on his own.
He made it out alive, it sucks that he chose to throw away that blessing.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Al i can say is that i'm very sorry you have such a lack of faith in our troops.

I'll go out on a limb and predict that this war will be won and Iraq will be better off in the end.
What puzzles me is how you conclude that it was never meant to be won, i just don't understand that comment or how you can be so sure.



Cat, it has nothing to to with our troops. Our troops can't stop Iranian agents from infiltrating the border. They can't stop the Sunni's from bombing Shiites and police station. They can't stop the Shiites from executing any Sunni they feel like.

We need a political solution. How will we achieve one the way things are over there right now?

It's not that I have lack of faith. It's lack of trust that our leaders don't have a more long-term plan that Iraq is only a part of. A plan that they could never reveal to the public.

OR

they're just really short-sighted and incompetent. Or both.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I CAN'T STOP LAUGHING AT THIS LINE :D :D :D :D :D


It's been documented , beeyatch :D :D :p

I think ELVIS meant all the News stories that had been posted here before you assclowns even heard of this place.

Not the discussion of conservatives v. liberals, which we always win. :)

:gulp:

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
:rolleyes:

I love when you show off your high Christian values


Jesus must be so proud of you.

You're awfully fond of bringing up the name of Jesus and Christianity in general for a non-believer.

Did you go to church today? :)

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
BTW, I rarely "cut n' paste" opinion or op-ed articles. I cunt n' paste legitimate news...

All the actual news you don't want to hear (or face).

No conspiracy stuff. Rarely any partisan websites...




:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Yup, uh-huh! I said it Ms. Op-Ed.;)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
You're awfully fond of bringing up the name of Jesus and Christianity in general for a non-believer.

Did you go to church today? :)

What does one have to do with the other ? :rolleyes:

As a "non-christian" I'm not permitted to point out hypocrisy in someone who wears their religion on their sleeve, and then calls fellow Americans who love their country "fucking scum" ?

So if I went to church today it would make a difference? really?

So you must really have alot of respect for those who kneel and pray 5 times a day, and then go and place roadside bombs for our troops. Why do you neo-cons hate America?

I have many Christian friends and relatives who practice what they preach. I don't see it in ELVIS. I see soemone who talks the talk, but never walks the walk.

That's my opinion. Don't like it? Imagine my concern.

But to answer your question, no I didnt go to church, but my wife did kneel and pray before me this morning. And I talked to God the whole time.

Quite a religious experience. Then I made coffee. :cool:

[ashstralia]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
my wife did kneel and pray before me this morning. And I talked to God the whole time.
Quite a religious experience. Then I made coffee. :cool:

real men don't brag about such things, lounge! :p


now, BACK ON TOPIC!!!!!!

[Warham]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
What does one have to do with the other ? :rolleyes:

As a "non-christian" I'm not permitted to point out hypocrisy in someone who wears their religion on their sleeve, and then calls fellow Americans who love their country "fucking scum" ?

So if I went to church today it would make a difference? really?

So you must really have alot of respect for those who kneel and pray 5 times a day, and then go and place roadside bombs for our troops. Why do you neo-cons hate America?

I have many Christian friends and relatives who practice what they preach. I don't see it in ELVIS. I see soemone who talks the talk, but never walks the walk.

That's my opinion. Don't like it? Imagine my concern.

But to answer your question, no I didnt go to church, but my wife did kneel and pray before me this morning. And I talked to God the whole time.

Quite a religious experience. Then I made coffee. :cool:

I wouldn't use this forum as a tool to estimate how good of a Christian somebody here is. I'm sure some of us in 'real life' are not similar to how we are on the interweb. This forum makes for good gossip and a few laughs, but not as a good means of judging somebody's character.

[jacksmar]

http://www.goodnewsiraq.com/index2.htm

Another great site for real Americans.

And a quote from Buckley on Commie Kerry:
John Kerry's assault on this country did not rise fullblown in his mind, like Venus from the Cypriot Sea. It is the crystallization of an assault upon America which has been fostered over the years by an intellectual class given over to self-doubt and self-hatred, driven by a cultural disgust with the uses to which so many people put their freedom. The assault on the military, the many and subtle vibrations of which you feel as keenly as James Baldwin knows the inflections of racism, is an assault on the proposition that what we have, in America, is truly worth defending. The military is to be loved or despised according as it defends that which is beloved or perpetuates that which is despised.

[Nickdfresh]

These days the world hears only the news stories from Iraq of Iraqi citizens and coalition forces being attacked, of assassinations, and of insurgents attempting to destroy Iraqi infrastructure._ Many news organizations have said they would like to get the good news from Iraq out to the public, but that the stories of explosions, deaths and the current problems get in the way of telling the stories about the good that is happening.

Good News Iraq is devoted to showing the good_which comes as a direct product of the sacrifice of service members and their families._ They sacrifice a portion, or in some cases all, of their lives_to give_the Iraqi people the chance at a freedom they never dreamed possible. A chance to determine their own fate.

Today, Good News Iraq relies on stories from disparate sources, Many are found on the websites of our armed forces and those of our allies. However, we are well on the way to having our own embedded journalists in Iraq._In addition to carrying the stories from our armed forces we will also have stories that are exclusive to GoodNewsIraq.com

Our goal is to provide a venue for the stories about the good that is happening in Iraq - but above all what is truly happening._ No sugar coating can make the bitter pill of war palatable, but the mainstream news sources would have you believe the patient is terminal._Consumers of "news" should have an option to see more than the sensational stories of explosions and death, which keep the ratings high in the news business._Our site reminds people that most Iraqis are not fighting us; that most Iraqis are working to rebuild their country and to make it a better place. Our site focuses on the fact that outside of Al Anbar province, Mosul, and Baghdad, Iraq is rebuilding in an environment of stability and security.

While our focus is Iraq, Good News Iraq will also help keep up the public's awareness of events in Afghanistan._ Events in Afghanistan are often overshadowed by the more sensational events in Iraq._ By expending our Afghanistan coverage, possibly to its own website, we will be able to remind readers of the good that_comes as a result of the removal of tyranny from any country where it becomes the norm.

In the weeks ahead, we will establish a portal_where members of our Armed Forces and their families can leave messages of support for each other._A place where_sons, daughters, dads and moms can be reminded that they have a tremendous amount of support at home and those at home can see that there are others who care about and are thankful for_what our brave heroes are achieving.
_
The efforts of our bravest ambassadors is creating Good News in Iraq - our site is dedicated to ensure their legacy to Iraq is understood.


We are just two guys that are running this site and we would like to see it grow. So won’t you lend a hand? Any gift you choose whether $5.00, $25.00 or $100 to send will help us continue to get the good news from Iraq out to the world. You can use Paypal or send us a check to: Good News Iraq PO Box 40785 Mesa, AZ 85274

You no longer need a Paypal account to make a donations through Paypal.
_




Thank you_ from Good News Iraq
_

Donations are Not tax deductible.

_
Main Page___ Help Support the Effort __ Mission Statement __ Sign Our Guest Book___ Join Our E-News __ Contact Us

Uhuhuhuhuhuhuhuh!

Send us your money so we can cut and paste partisan bullshit propaganda, and only reprint the "good" stories that spin what this discredited Administration's talking points...

We'll cut out all those unpleasant articles of US deaths, no WMDs found, and how the attacks are steadily increasing....


What a scam.



_http://www.cyberarium.com/images/misc62499/ostrich.jpg

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Warham
I wouldn't use this forum as a tool to estimate how good of a Christian somebody here is. I'm sure some of us in 'real life' are not similar to how we are on the interweb. This forum makes for good gossip and a few laughs, but not as a good means of judging somebody's character.


Thank you, Warpig...

Fuck you, Loungepussy...


:elvis:

[Cathedral]

Um, sorry but i have to disagree here, guys.

Being two faced is still being two faced.
You can't just wave the banner of Faith when it's convenient and then act like a heathen and expect to be taken seriously when you pick up the faith banner again.

That's called hypocracy, and a Christian should know better.

I'm not attacking anyone without putting myself in that catagory either because i have occasion to do the same thing.

But i'm working on that.

God will take into account what you posted on a message board just as much as what you say to someone's face, or on the telephone, or with any means of communication.

The problem is in what we think and in our tongues.

It's like the married guy who cybers with many different women and then thinks he hasn't sinned....That's just nonesense.

The internet is not an exempt forum from what God requires from us.
To post it is to say it and we are all judged by our actions.

Sorry, E, but you know i'm right on this, buddy...and just as guilty.

[Warham]

But I thought nobody cared about other people on the interweb, Cat? lol

;)

[LoungeMachine]

Thank you Cat,

God Bless you, and be with you, ELVIS

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Warham
I wouldn't use this forum as a tool to estimate how good of a Christian somebody here is. I'm sure some of us in 'real life' are not similar to how we are on the interweb. This forum makes for good gossip and a few laughs, but not as a good means of judging somebody's character.

I could not agree more. :cool:


However as Cat stated, being a hypocrite is still wrong, and when you hold someone's faith [or lack thereof ] as a character flaw but then ignore your own rules, you're an open target for ridicule.

I don't judge ELVIS by his faith. Only by his words.

His words in here certainly don't match the Christian faith as I know it.

Peace be with you, my brother the neo-con shitbag ;)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ashstralia
real men don't brag about such things, lounge! :p


now, BACK ON TOPIC!!!!!!

Good thing I'm not much of a "real man" :D

Now, what was the topic, again ??? :D

[ashstralia]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Now, what was the topic, again ??? :D

i don't remember.:)

[LoungeMachine]

F.R.A.P.O.L.

Whatever that means

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Um, sorry but i have to disagree here, guys.

Being two faced is still being two faced.
You can't just wave the banner of Faith when it's convenient and then act like a heathen and expect to be taken seriously when you pick up the faith banner again.

That's called hypocracy, and a Christian should know better.

I'm not attacking anyone without putting myself in that catagory either because i have occasion to do the same thing.

But i'm working on that.

God will take into account what you posted on a message board just as much as what you say to someone's face, or on the telephone, or with any means of communication.

The problem is in what we think and in our tongues.

It's like the married guy who cybers with many different women and then thinks he hasn't sinned....That's just nonesense.

The internet is not an exempt forum from what God requires from us.
To post it is to say it and we are all judged by our actions.

Sorry, E, but you know i'm right on this, buddy...and just as guilty.

I agree with what you say, Cat, but LM seems to think he knows what Christians should be doing or not doing, correct?

He obviously is quite curious of our faith. Prech it to him, brother. :) :) :) :)

[Cathedral]

This is a tough one because by and large, I don't think Christians even know what they should be doing, I sure don't which is why i know i am lost.

I am surrounded every day by people who like to preach but not practice what they are preaching.
This puts me at odds with the very people i always thought i'd find unity in.
I do know a few that do live by the word and never stray from it for any reason or anyone.

If i had my way i would silence every TV preacher on the air and send people to the smallest brokest church on the block.

A truly humble man is closer to God than Mr. $5000 suit with his hand out.
I have a major problem with holy men and women that collect a pay check for what they do.
Now if they write a book and profit from that, fine, just don't be taking tithes and calling it an income because that money belongs to the church, not the icon leading it.

Our old Pastor stood before us and gave us a serman about how he never had to buy new tires for his Cadillac because they were "sanctified" and never wore out.
But the reality is that he never had to buy new tires because it was the church paying for them, not him, and he wasn't the one who took the car to the shop to get them, it was his paid house servant that did all that.
Then he threatened to leave when people got tired of 30 minute messages every Sunday about giving when those he was griping to had already given their more than fair share.
The place went from 3000+ people to just over 1200, and all in a month.
I have no idea where he is now and nobody much cares.
We just got a new Pastor, a young guy of 33 years who so far hasn't had to say a word about money and those who left came back and brought their friends, lol.
I rarely see a person that just flows in the spirit, and this kid has it in droves.
What i like best is that he never runs from a tough question and if he doesn't have an answer he'll tell you he doesn't and will do his best to find it.
If every Christian just had one tenth of what i see and feel from him the world would be a 50% better place to live.

Christians with the do as i say and not as i do attitude can keep on walking, i don't want to be anywhere near you when that lightning bolt comes raining down on you, lol.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Cathedral

Sorry, E, but you know i'm right on this, buddy...and just as guilty.

Of course I am, and I also 100% own up to it...


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Cathedral
I rarely see a person that just flows in the spirit, and this kid has it in droves.
What i like best is that he never runs from a tough question and if he doesn't have an answer he'll tell you he doesn't and will do his best to find it.
If every Christian just had one tenth of what i see and feel from him the world would be a 50% better place to live.



Awesome, I hope he's the real deal, time will tell...

Sounds like our pastor, who has an eleven year old track record of displaying real Christian qualities, such as you mentioned...

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Of course I am, and I also 100% own up to it...


:elvis:

The part you quoted, just to be clear, i was referring to me being just as guilty.. ;)

I won't stand in judgement of you, E, I am not qualified to even think about doing that, bro.

I've got to learn to keep both feet on the same path, and it's tougher than anything i've ever done in my life.

[ELVIS]

Taking Christianity seriously is a struggle, and I'm In the same boat as you, Brother...

Comming to the conclusion, or revelation as I have, that being a Christian is to sacrifice yourself and personal ambition to give your life to God and your brothers and sisters is a bitch...lol

I almost turned my back on God and said to hell with it...

Christianity isn't a spectator sport. It's all or none...

God doesn't want leftovers, he wants our hearts and 100% of our attention...

God is love, and we only have as much love as we give, or in other words, we only have as much God as we want...

I'm rambling Cat, but are you following me ??

In my humble opinion, Christianity is the opposite of selfishness...

It's the most difficult path there is...


Peace Brother


:elvis:

[Warham]

I can feel the love in here.

:D

[ELVIS]

Peace to you too, brother Warpig...;)

[ELVIS]

Hey, but did I make any sense there to you ??

[Warham]

I follow you, Elvis. In fact, you could have been speaking for me there.

[ELVIS]

Thanks man...

Our youth pastor seems to think I have a good understanding of what a real Christian should be, and that I have a knack for breaking it down into it's simple meaning, which I see it as love, love for fellow man...

My trouble lately is, after successfully dealing with drugs and alcohol, the devil has taken the opportunity to tempt me with a couple cute young ladies, who are definately not of the Christian variety...

Let's just say I have become quite destracted...:(


Hmmm...

[Satan]

Originally posted by ELVIS


My trouble lately is, after successfully dealing with drugs and alcohol, the devil has taken the opportunity to tempt me with a couple cute young ladies, who are definately not of the Christian variety...

Let's just say I have become quite destracted...:(


Hmmm...

Just doing my job http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/smiley_evilGrin.gif

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Taking Christianity seriously is a struggle, and I'm In the same boat as you, Brother...

Comming to the conclusion, or revelation as I have, that being a Christian is to sacrifice yourself and personal ambition to give your life to God and your brothers and sisters is a bitch...lol

I almost turned my back on God and said to hell with it...

Christianity isn't a spectator sport. It's all or none...

God doesn't want leftovers, he wants our hearts and 100% of our attention...

God is love, and we only have as much love as we give, or in other words, we only have as much God as we want...

I'm rambling Cat, but are you following me ??

In my humble opinion, Christianity is the opposite of selfishness...

It's the most difficult path there is...


Peace Brother


:elvis:

I follow you to a certain extent, but i drift of course and away from main frame thinking when i see how individually some Christians really think...It makes me question what their definition of a Christian is.

WWJD is more than a catch phrase that looks good on a bracelet, and the answer some people offer to that couldn't be farther from the truth or what Jesus represented to the world.

I just don't like general labels because when people who don't believe define what a Chrisitan is they base that definition on those who aren't even on the right path.

It then just becomes a case of the lost preaching to the lost and in the end everyone remains lost.

To put things in numbers everyone can understand, in my opinion only 2% of all chiristians actually have it right, and they aren't even on the radar because they don't get involved with the garbage, they stay silent shaking their heads in much of the same way God must be with how some people that claim to be dedicated to him are acting.

"Depart from me, I never knew you" will be a solid reality many more will face than won't.

I'll tell you this, E, the day i finally get it right and strengthen all the areas i am spiritually weak, you won't see me on this or any other board wasting my time bantering with people.
I'll be building my own congregation in order to preach the truth and lead people to God.
God doesn't wants thanks, he doesn't want to hear prayers of the selfish or self centered, He wants souls, that is all he wants.
He's done all the saving he's gonna do the moment Jesus died on that cross and if the spiritually hungry don't look to Christ for the manna of eternal life, it isn't his fault.
It becomes the fault of those who ran around preaching to people but never bringing them into the fold.

The reason is that when a so-called christian gets in the face of a non-believer they tend to be judgemental as opposed to forgiving. they come off as though they stand on a level above them and think they are better than the sinner who doesn't know Jesus, that is wrong.
God doesn't favor one over the other, he loves ALL his children equally, the sinner and non sinner a like.

I can't tell you how often in spiritual discussion where i live people try to correct me when i'm saying the same thing they are. if i don't use their words it seems they want to lecture me about where i'm off course and i find myself saying, "That's what i just said", it gets frustrating dealing with people who would rather "Keep up with the Jones'" and look the part than follow Christ and actually listen to what i'm saying.
They aren't interested in having a discussion, they are interested in playing preacher without being qualified to do so and end up walking in ignorance.
That pushes more people away than it brings to Christ and they never seem to understand that they are promoting their own doctrine instead of the inspired word of God. It's more of a persuit to earn brownie points than anything else, and that's selfish, and ultimately NOT of God.

But they'll learn, oh boy will they learn, and those who they have screwed up, for lack of a better term, will find the mercy of God where they will hear the words, "I never knew you, depart from me."

There is a famine of truth in this world today, and only those who really want salvation will find it.
It won't be found in the greed of Million Dollar churches, it won't be found in politics, and it won't be found in social circles.
It will only be found through the blood of Jesus Christ, and he isn't the Liberal lots of people tend to portray him as.

Walking in the dark leads to an unknown destination, only by finding the light does the path and direction become clear and illuminated.