Tookie Williams

[ELVIS]

The co-founder of the Crips street gang shows his true colors

Interviewed By Venise Wagner (http://www.motherjones.com/news/qa/2001/03/tookie_williams.html)

http://www.tookie.com/htdocs/images/Stanley.Tookie.Williams.5.5.03.jpeg

Apart from winning an appeal or walking the green mile, there aren't many ways to make the headlines from death row. But last November, Stanley "Tookie" Williams, infamous co-founder of the Crips street gang, saw himself on the nightly news: The San Quentin inmate had been nominated for the 2001 Nobel Peace Prize by a member of the Swiss Parliament.

Williams, now 47, was sentenced to death in 1981 for four robbery-related murders. The Crips -- which he and a friend started in South Central Los Angeles in 1971 -- had already spread to cities throughout the United States, and copycat gangs would soon crop up in South Africa and Switzerland as well.

Williams experienced a "reawakening" in 1993 and has since tried to whittle away at the burden of his violent legacy, one word at a time. He's written Tookie Speaks Out Against Gang Violence, a series of eight readers aimed at urban youth, and Life in Prison, a biography detailing the isolation and despair of death row. In collaboration with his editor, Barbara Cottman Becnel, Williams also started the Internet Project for Street Peace, which links teens from the industrial, largely black town of Richmond, California, with peers in Switzerland, teaching them computer literacy and encouraging them to share their experiences in avoiding street violence.

Mother Jones spoke to Williams by phone about his nomination, his work for children, and his life in San Quentin.


Mother Jones: How did you start writing for troubled kids?

Tookie Williams: Let's just say I was inspired to write children's books, but without blood and gore. You see, the first publishing company that contacted me, they wanted the gore, the foul language. But see, I don't curse. All these things they wanted are things that I had actually transformed from. Why should I rehash something that was negative? If you're going to teach a child, teach him properly. I apprised [editor] Barbara [Cottman Becnel] that I wanted to write children's books. Life in Prison, that's self-explanatory -- being in here. I wanted to deglamorize this place because this is ridiculous. No child would ever want to end up in here. So any stories that they heard -- I wanted to debunk that.

MJ: And the Internet project?

TW: I had been hearing a lot about computers. Admittedly, I've never had a computer because we aren't allowed to have such things. But I found out that children were interested in computers. The program teaches individuals to become computer literate, but it also teaches leadership and communication skills with other youth.

MJ: Anger is at the core of a lot of street violence. How do your projects address that?

TW: That anger that we talk about is self-hate. On a daily basis these youngsters digest negative stereotypes about blacks, and eventually they end up believing them and acting them out in life. That's basically what happened to me. My books, they are about instilling confidence, trying to convince youngsters that they have the potential to succeed in life, and that they don't have to succumb to the stereotypes.

MJ: Do you think you can be a role model from death row?

TW: For me, there was never an individual there that I could empathize with when I was growing up. If there had been an individual like myself who had actually experienced the madness and then came back and said, "Hey, look, this is not what you want to do," I know I would have done better.

MJ: What effect did writing the books have on you?

TW: For me it was redemption, an act of atonement. Something that I could give back. Because let's face it, myself and others in the gang life have done nothing but destroy the community.

MJ: You say your reawakening began when you were sent to The Hole in 1993. Can you talk about your transformation?

TW: I unchained my mind, and I did so through prayers and extensive study. I had to seriously question whether I was a human or a beast. In choosing not to be a beast, I discovered my humanity. I became autodidactic, self-educated -- a critical thinker.

MJ: Do you think you would have had the same transformation if you'd had a life sentence rather than a death sentence?

TW: I would like to think so. We all know this place is potentially volatile and hopeless... I mean, this place -- looking in it or being in it -- is a place of doom. All right? This is where one's past continues to haunt you. This place can either make you go mad or convince you to become a better person.

MJ: Do you believe you've been effective in turning back the tide of gang violence?

TW: There is no one elixir that can resolve the madness that's going on out there. But I believe that what I'm doing and what I've done has helped individuals. It has more effect on the youngsters, because they have a better chance of growing up into responsible adults.

MJ: What did the Nobel nomination mean to you?

TW: I couldn't have perceived such an honor being bestowed upon me. Having been nominated is simply mind-shattering.



:elvis:

[FORD]

If this man is doing some good for the African American community by discouraging kids from entering a life of crime, then it seems to me that society would benefit from him continuing to write and to speak from behind bars, than to kill him and silence that voice.

This case reminds me of the Karla Faye Tucker case in some ways, where the woman (though she had commited a horrible crime) had turned from her ways and was ministering to fellow convicts, causing no less than Pat Robertson to plead for her life...... to a heartless George W. Chimp who mocked the woman's pleas for her life.

Will Herr Gropenator give the reality of the situation some more rational thought than Junior did?

[diamondD]

The reality is Tookie has never shown any remorse for what he did and refuses to acknowledge that he did it, even tho the evidence is so overwhelming that even Jessie Jackson admits it is.

The lives he has saved is great, what about the 1000s more he ruined by starting the Crips?

[Axl S]

Originally posted by diamondD
The reality is Tookie has never shown any remorse for what he did and refuses to acknowledge that he did it, even tho the evidence is so overwhelming that even Jessie Jackson admits it is.

The lives he has saved is great, what about the 1000s more he ruined by starting the Crips?

at least he has realised the error of his ways and is trying to prevent further such things happening by speaking out against gang violence,and he started the Internet Project for Street Peace,has its benefits for youths,teaching them computer literacy and encouraging them to share their experiences in avoiding street violence.

gotta give him props for that

[Cathedral]

Give me a break, I don't care if he shits Gold, the man does not deserve to live for what he has done and i cannot believe i am reading what i am reading in this thread.

It's true, the hearts of Americans have grown so cold that the lives he and his influence has taken from this earth don't mean shit.

So if i go out on a killing spree and kill your mother it's ok as long as i "Do some good with my voice" after the fact?

Cool, i'll do anything to stay alive, Thanks!

God help us all when we begin to embrace murderers in our society for the "good" they do...And while your at it, just throw Jesus back on the cross because you don't care about the innocent who have died at the hands of people like this.

[ELVIS]

Finally, a voice of reason...

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Give me a break, I don't care if he shits Gold, the man does not deserve to live for what he has done and i cannot believe i am reading what i am reading in this thread.

It's true, the hearts of Americans have grown so cold that the lives he and his influence has taken from this earth don't mean shit.

So if i go out on a killing spree and kill your mother it's ok as long as i "Do some good with my voice" after the fact?

Cool, i'll do anything to stay alive, Thanks!

God help us all when we begin to embrace murderers in our society for the "good" they do...And while your at it, just throw Jesus back on the cross because you don't care about the innocent who have died at the hands of people like this.

ummm...didn't Jesus also talk about forgiveness?

i'm not saying that this particular individual is now a good and proper human being. maybe he's not. maybe it's just to avoid the lethal injection.

but there is a point where God would forgive a murderer, correct?

i'm not saying we have to open the cell door, pay him for time stayed in jail, build him a house next door to the schools, etc.

but is it possible in some circumstances that we accept that a murderer has changed and that we at least commute the death sentence?

[Cathedral]

Or more appropriately, the voice of cultural frustration.
I'm getting very very tired of what the hell is going on in this world, Elvis.
I'm losing it on all fronts at present.
One minute i'm all about leading a better life, and the next, I just want to explode in furious anger.

I'm coming apart, not much reason in that i'm afraid.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by knuckleboner

but there is a point where God would forgive a murderer, correct?



God may have already forgiven him and he may well be on his way to heaven...

Most likely in 13 days...

:elvis:

[Redballjets88]

the fact is that he killed 4 people is psychotic ways and who cares if he speaks out aginst gangs millions of people do that

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Cathedral

I'm coming apart, not much reason in that i'm afraid.

One problem I never had was an anger problem...

Hang in there...;)

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
ummm...didn't Jesus also talk about forgiveness?

i'm not saying that this particular individual is now a good and proper human being. maybe he's not. maybe it's just to avoid the lethal injection.

but there is a point where God would forgive a murderer, correct?

i'm not saying we have to open the cell door, pay him for time stayed in jail, build him a house next door to the schools, etc.

but is it possible in some circumstances that we accept that a murderer has changed and that we at least commute the death sentence?

Yes, hence my frustration.
I want to see this man die for what he did, but i also don't like my approval or support of putting people to death.
What fucks my head up is how for some i agree with killing them but in others i feel compassion for them.

His lack of remorse or acknowledgement for his crimes infuriates me while the reactions of the victims families rips my heart out.

[Redballjets88]

anybody see how ripped this guy was damn

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
One problem I never had was an anger problem...

Hang in there...;)

I'm trying, i'm trying real hard (sounds like a Pulp Fiction line).

[ELVIS]

Jesus, God and the Bible are for Justice...

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Redballjets88
anybody see how ripped this guy was damn

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Photos/040408/040408_redemption_vmed_12p.widec.jpg


:elvis:

[knuckleboner]

yeah, i know, cat, and big E. i'm not saying this particular guy definitely warrants saving.

though, as FORD pointed out, perhaps it's more for society's sake, than his, that his sentence should get commuted.


that said, i'm against the death penalty in general. however, it is a valid punishment.

and in our justice system, your conviction and punishment is based on the crime you committed, not on what you do afterwards. i'm definitely against commuting sentences every time somebody becomes a decent guy, after the fact.

but, there are occasional situations where i would support altering the sentence. especially if society could benefit.


but never an easy decision.



(and yes, i've seen that picture before. anybody piss-testing the inmates over there?!)

[Redballjets88]

thats the pic i saw what a peice of shit

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by knuckleboner

but, there are occasional situations where i would support altering the sentence. especially if society could benefit.


I can agree with that, but i don't see this guy fitting that bill.
Gangs aren't your average criminals, and anything he says will not restore their value for human life.

Seeing him put to death in my opinion will send a harder message to them along the lines of, "A life for a life".

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Jesus, God and the Bible are for Justice...

And the last thing Jesus did before dying was forgive a murderer.

I'm not neccessarily anti death penalty, I just don't know if it's the best option in this case.

Did you agree with Pat Robertson that Karla Faye Tucker should have been spared, to continue a prison ministry?

[Warham]

Jesus forgave the thief, but he still paid for his crimes. You didn't see God wave his hand and thief come down from the cross.

Jesus had two big commandments: love God with all your heart, mind and soul, and love your neighbors the same way. He never inserted 'thou shalt not give out the death penalty' anywhere in those two.

What Stanley did was anything but loving his neighbors.

[FORD]

Again, the question is, does the man's death serve a greater good than the message that he can send to young black kids, which could turn them away from a life of crime.

Nobody's arguing for the guy to be paroled or be given a pResidential medal of "freedom". And the Nobel Peace Prize nomination was a bit over the top.

I have never bought the idea of the death penalty as a "deterrent" and I don't believe killing this man will prevent a single crime. But his words, communicated to those considering the "gangsta" life, just might prevent many.

[Warham]

How about a better option?

He tells them 'do not as I do', then is put to death.

That way his message gets across, he pays for his crimes, and he saves the state taxpayers a few bucks a year.

[Redballjets88]

i dont think his message will make a difference anyway, someone said earlier that gang members were a different kind of criminal and i think that is true because they are a part of their own sub culture within that gang and nothing tookie or anyone says will change their mind unless they change their own mind. what tookie does will not make a difference in the long run. i say make him pay for what he did for those 4 people and send a message to the gangs that way, that crime doesnt pay and sooner or later they will die from it either on the streets or in the chair. that or spend forever in prison as a part of prison gangs and never have a good life

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
And the last thing Jesus did before dying was forgive a murderer.

He didn't spare him the death penalty...

Did you agree with Pat Robertson that Karla Faye Tucker should have been spared, to continue a prison ministry?

No...



There are plenty of non-criminals and non death row inmates running prison ministries...


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
Again, the question is, does the man's death serve a greater good than the message that he can send to young black kids, which could turn them away from a life of crime.




They can buy the books after he's dead...

[jhale667]

Originally posted by ELVIS
They can buy the books after he's dead...


True. And if he shows no remorse for his acts, why should anyone shed a tear if HE's off'ed? It's nice he's written some kid's books and all, but if he hasn't truly 'repented' (for lack of a better word)...who cares. Besides, doesn't he serve as more of a deterrent to other kids considering the gang lifestyle if he IS executed (I know that's the whole --and possibly flawed--theory behind the death penalty anyway, but...sometimes a slap on the wrist doesn't cut it)?:confused:

[diamondD]

If they spared him, the message would be to pretend you have changed, drag it out thru the justice system, and play on people's sympathies until a movement gets started.


Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.

[Nitro Express]

We don't have to give him a lethal injection. I say we set him free. I would sail him down to Antartica and tell him he was a free man and we have given him his own country and wish him good luck as the Zodiac boat pulls away leaving him with the seals and penguins.

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Or more appropriately, the voice of cultural frustration.
I'm getting very very tired of what the hell is going on in this world, Elvis.
I'm losing it on all fronts at present.
One minute i'm all about leading a better life, and the next, I just want to explode in furious anger.

I'm coming apart, not much reason in that i'm afraid. You might need some therapy!

That said, set aside the good vs. bad and revenge bullshit. Consider what´s best for society. I think your society has more to win by letting him live and go on positively influencing potential gangstas than by killing him.

It´s not as if we´re talking about letting him go!

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Jesus, God and the Bible are for Justice...
Guys like you take the parts of the Bible that fit your agenda and neglect the rest.

Hypocrits!

[ELVIS]

http://www.artistdirect.com/Images/Sources/AMGPORTRAITS/music/portrait200/drp100/p139/p13922i6fgv.jpg

Took, Took, Tookie goodbye,
Took, Took, Tookie don't cry.
The choo-choo train that takes me away from you,
no words can tell how glad it makes me.
Kill me, Tookie, and then
Do it over again.
Watch for the mail,
I'll never fail,
If you don't get the needle,
they should kill you in jail.
Took, Took, Tookie don't cry,
Took, Took, Tookie goodbye!


:elvis:

[Redballjets88]

Guys like you take the parts of the Bible that fit your agenda and neglect the rest.

how do you know what he thinks on the inside? and you saying that makes you the same because you are pissed at what he said

[Wayne L.]

When they kill this guy, I hope they let me sniff his feet before they bury him.

Mmmm.... fresh roasted feet...

[Angel]

Originally posted by Cathedral
I just want to explode in furious anger.

"Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned." - Buddha.

"Teach this triple truth to all: A generous heart, kind speech, and a life of service and compassion are the things which renew humanity" - Buddha.

Cat, you have to let that anger go, it will just bring you down. Most often, anger is caused by broken expectations. If you can figure out what expectations you have (or had) that have been broken, you will figure out where the anger comes from so that you can let it go.

I know we don't always see eye to eye Cat, but I still don't want to see you explode!

:angel:

PS: This fucking bastard should BURN for what he has done to society! A little late now to do the "gangs are bad" thing. He should have thought about that before he destroyed the lives of a hell of a lot of people!

[ELVIS]

Well, Tookie was denied Clemency...

Good!


Let's have a look at his victims...

Ye-Chen Lin
http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/tookievictim3adweb.jpg


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Tsai-Shai Yang
http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/tookievictim2adweb.jpg


:elvis:

[ELVIS]

Albert Owens
http://www.homestead.com/prosites-prs/tookievictim1adweb.jpg


:elvis:

[FORD]

Tookie Williams kills 4 people and later in life tries to turn people from violence, and he will die for it.

George Bush JR admits to murdering 30,000 Iraqis (actual number probably much higher) and the whore media calls him a "popular (36%) wartime pResident".

And Bush has no intention of turning others from violence, but rather continuing his murdering ways.

If you condemn one murderer and support the other, you are a hypocrite.

[DrMaddVibe]

Goodbye killer!

[Julius]

Originally posted by Wayne L.
When they kill this guy, I hope they let me sniff his feet before they bury him.

Mmmm.... fresh roasted feet...

LMFAO!

[ELVIS]

Three hours and counting...

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Three hours and counting...

Five years and counting.......

Since the murder of the United States of America by the 5 BCE appointees of the Supreme Court

December 12, 2000 :(

[ELVIS]

:rolleyes:

[Big Train]

Being that I live here in LA, I have had some heavy thoughts on this.

On the one hand, I feel Tookie got what he deserved. Starting the Crips alone and counting the havoc and murder they have caused of the years in thousands of lives, I can see his punishment.

On the other hand, I see no reason to actually kill him. Life in prison is no joke and there was and is no pressing need to kill him or anybody on death row.

In truth, most of today's Crips barely know who the fuck he is. So what's the point? If he can bring ANY good into this world, then let him.

Elvis, even if you think he is going to rot in hell or whatever, don't you as a Christian see the benefit of him doing good while on earth in any capacity? Taking any joy in someone's death, which you appear to be doing here (the blackface bullshit I can do without as well), is NOT what the man upstairs would want us doing (and while I admit not to be an authority on religious matters, if he exists, I'm pretty sure that ain't the plan). It is not different than terrorists shouting "Praise Allah" after yet another murderous attack.

Ford, from a STRICTLY religious point of view, I agree with what you say, not just about Bush, but basically anyone who has ever been in power on Earth in the history of the world.

[Julius]

Originally posted by FORD
Five years and counting.......

Since the murder of the United States of America by the 5 BCE appointees of the Supreme Court

December 12, 2000 :(

I'll give you an A for effort, FORD. You're nothing if not persistent.

I think Tookie must die though. His whole redemption act is too little too late for me.

Time to take his medicine.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Big Train
Starting the Crips alone and counting the havoc and murder they have caused of the years in thousands of lives, I can see his punishment.



Tookie had nothing to do with the Crips' foundation. That's a myth...

The Crips were founded in 1969, when Stanley was about to be 16 years old...

[Jesus Christ]

Gregory, what does My word say about vengeance?

[Hardrock69]

Hey, your Dad will get his turn...we get ours FIRST!!!

And tell him to hurry up and let Chimpy have a bizzare gardening accident or something....

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Gregory, what does My word say about vengeance?


How many times have I told you to shut the fuck up ??

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by ELVIS
How many times have I told you to shut the fuck up ??


Fine then..... have a nice time in Hell! :mad:

[ELVIS]

Oh fuck you!

You're not Jesus!

You might rot in hell for pretending to be Jesus...


Fuck off!

[Jesus Christ]

Ye still hath not answered the question, Gregory.....

If ye claim to believe in My word, then why do ye cheer on those who take vengeance on mankind.

Did I tell My apostles to visit those in prison, and minister unto them.....or to kill them, as ye would have them do?

[ELVIS]

Take vengeance on mankind ??

This fool killed four people in cold blood !!!!!!!!!!!!


It's called JUSTICE!!!

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Ye still hath not answered the question, Gregory.....

If ye claim to believe in My word, then why do ye cheer on those who take vengeance on mankind.

Did I tell My apostles to visit those in prison, and minister unto them.....or to kill them, as ye would have them do?

Live by the sword, die by the sword, and the law is a life for a life.
If he's found redemption then God will welcome him home...if not, he's hell bound.
Either way, it's time for him to make that journey, he's done here.

Hey, the bible requires a witness to the crime, there were a few.
Death was the penalty, Death it shall be.

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Take vengeance on mankind ??

This fool killed four people in cold blood !!!!!!!!!!!!


It's called JUSTICE!!!

Vengeance is MINE, sayeth the Lord.

What part of that do ye not understand?

[DrMaddVibe]

Its your Dad's will.




The candles flickered Monday night outside the gates of San Quentin State Prison as the minutes ticked down to midnight and the execution of Stanley Tookie Williams.

More than 2,000 death penalty opponents stood or sat in the middle of the two-lane road leading to the prison gates, waving signs, shivering in the cold and trying to ignore a pair of Los Angeles shock jocks who were broadcasting live and screaming "Kill Tookie" into their microphones.

A minute after midnight today, as the crowd realized that the execution would go forward, scores of people in the crowd began to weep uncontrollably.

At the moment Williams was being put to death a few hundred yards away, the throng outside the prison wall was listening to speakers reading excerpts from Williams' anti-gang textbooks.

A few people began shoving and throwing objects at a network TV news crew. The rest fell utterly silent.

The protesters were joined by an army of reporters and photographers, some from Europe and Asia, who had come to tell their story.

Williams' supporters stayed about 25 feet east of the prison gate, kept back by a steel police barricade as dozens of California Highway Patrol officers and Marin County sheriff's deputies, some in riot gear, stood watch.

Fred Jackson, the 67-year-old director of the Neighborhood House program for troubled youths in North Richmond, passed through the prison gates after paying a final visit to Williams, whose anti-gang books he uses in his program.

"He said that if he dies, it's God's will," Jackson said.

Another Williams supporter, Troy Goodwin of Richmond, brought his two children, 12-year-old Trayva and 11-year-old Tevin, to the prison gates on what he said was a "reality-check field trip."

"I want them to see the pros and cons behind this issue up close and personal," Goodwin said. "The message is that no matter how good you become, they still crush you. This guy couldn't have got any better."

David Johnson of Richmond said he had come to show support for Williams on his final day of life.

"I'm not a Crip, but he's a role model," Johnson said of Williams, who co-founded the violent gang in South Central Los Angeles as a teenager. "What he has to say is true and real."

Protester Carolyn King of San Jose was crying.

"If he doesn't rise to the level of clemency, then what does?" she said.

People in the crowd carried hand-painted signs that said "Save Tookie" and "Put executions on hold." They prayed, clasped hands, carried a 25-foot-tall likeness of Mahatma Gandhi and listened to a lone drummer tap out a mournful rhythm.

Only a handful among the crowd favored the execution. Among them was an unidentified man who carried a sign that said "Hang the bastard," who was shouted down by Williams supporters.

Rudy Thered of Sacramento, who said he had stood outside the prison gate for 12 executions, was carrying crime scene photos of the murders that Williams was convicted of committing and displaying them to Williams' supporters.

"I represent the victims,'' Thered said.

Taunting the crowd were L.A. shock jocks John Kobylt and Ken Chiampou, whose radio station Web site said they were at San Quentin to "debate the crowd of cheese-and-wine liberals, save the whales and murderers groups and assorted gang-banger types."

Among the anti-death penalty protesters were the Rev. Jesse Jackson, singer Joan Baez, actor Mike Farrell and TV judge Greg Mathis. Baez sang "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot,'' and the crowd joined in.

"Tonight is a planned, efficient, calculated, antiseptic, cold-blooded murder,'' Baez said.

Jackson paid a final visit with Williams and said the condemned man was trying to remain positive.

"Tell those who came, to follow my message -- anti-violence and anti-drugs," Jackson said Williams told him.

"We must not give up on redemption," Jackson said. "(Gov.) Arnold (Schwarzenegger) had a choice to make. He read the polls and washed his hands. But the blood will be there for a long time.''

"He's no threat to society," the civil rights leader added. "Why kill killing with killing?"

Chronicle staff writer Steve Rubenstein contributed to this report. E-mail Leslie Fulbright at lfulbright@sfchronicle.com.

Page A - 12

[ELVIS]

http://i.today.reuters.com/genImage.aspx?uri=2005-12-13T083745Z_01_MCC908296_RTRUKOP_2_PICTURE0.jpg&resize=full

RIP

May God have mercy on your soul...


:elvis:

[frets5150]

He should not have been put to Death yestarday.SPOOKIE...Should have been EXECUTED 25 years ago...

[Nickdfresh]

He never expressed any remorse, so he deserved no more consideration than anybody else...


But I'm not sure the death penalty is really useful anymore...

[ELVIS]

Yes it is!

[Nickdfresh]

Really? It has no deterrent effect. And life in prison without parole is suffering...

[ELVIS]

Maybe not to you...

The death penalty is just and it works...

I think they should do it with a public audience, and much sooner after conviction...


:elvis:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Maybe not to you...

The death penalty is just and it works...

I think they should do it with a public audience, and much sooner after conviction...


:elvis:

They should do it with a "public audience?" You mean out IN public? Well, the kids used to pick the pockets of the crowd watching the execution of child-pickpockets in 19th Century ENGLAND...

Maybe they can execute people on TV on Sunday morning...

Such good fun.

[ELVIS]

Hey!


:elvis:

[Douglas T.]

Originally posted by ELVIS
http://i.today.reuters.com/genImage.aspx?uri=2005-12-13T083745Z_01_MCC908296_RTRUKOP_2_PICTURE0.jpg&resize=full

RIP

May God have mercy on your soul...


YEP! The rest is up to him! We've done what the good book says:
Deuteronomy 17:5-6

5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. 6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.

Law Courts
8 If cases come before your courts that are too difficult for you to judge—whether bloodshed, lawsuits or assaults—take them to the place the LORD your God will choose. 9 Go to the priests, who are Levites, and to the judge who is in office at that time. Inquire of them and they will give you the verdict. 10 You must act according to the decisions they give you at the place the LORD will choose. Be careful to do everything they direct you to do. 11 Act according to the law they teach you and the decisions they give you. Do not turn aside from what they tell you, to the right or to the left.

[scamper]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Really? It has no deterrent effect. And life in prison without parole is suffering...

Life in prison on bread and water at hard labor is suffering, not playing ball, lifting weights, getting college degrees, watching TV....

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by scamper
Life in prison on bread and water at hard labor is suffering, not playing ball, lifting weights, getting college degrees, watching TV....

And all at the tax payers expense.
If they're guilty, and Tookie Williams was indeed proven guilty, send them to God for their judgement and spare the tax payers the financial burdon of supporting these animals.

[Dr. Love]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
Fine then..... have a nice time in Hell! :mad:

ROFL!!

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Maybe not to you...

The death penalty is just and it works...

I think they should do it with a public audience, and much sooner after conviction...


:elvis: Just like Jesus would have had it, ain´t it so??:rolleyes:

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Douglas T.
YEP! The rest is up to him! We've done what the good book says:
Deuteronomy 17:5-6

5 take the man or woman who has done this evil deed to your city gate and stone that person to death. 6 On the testimony of two or three witnesses a man shall be put to death, but no one shall be put to death on the testimony of only one witness. 7 The hands of the witnesses must be the first in putting him to death, and then the hands of all the people. You must purge the evil from among you.

Law Courts
8 If cases come before your courts that are too difficult for you to judge—whether bloodshed, lawsuits or assaults—take them to the place the LORD your God will choose. 9 Go to the priests, who are Levites, and to the judge who is in office at that time. Inquire of them and they will give you the verdict. 10 You must act according to the decisions they give you at the place the LORD will choose. Be careful to do everything they direct you to do. 11 Act according to the law they teach you and the decisions they give you. Do not turn aside from what they tell you, to the right or to the left.

Your stupid book also says that the alleged "son of god" told you to forgive and show the otehr cheek and that it´s only up to god to judge over life and death.

Well like I said, thanks to the Bible being so full of BS controversies you Christians get to justify almost anything with quotes!

[Jesus Christ]

From the 8th chapter of John's Gospel..... My views of the death penalty

1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

[Douglas T.]

Originally posted by Cathedral
And all at the tax payers expense.
If they're guilty, and Tookie Williams was indeed proven guilty, send them to God for their judgement and spare the tax payers the financial burdon of supporting these animals.

NEXT on the stand! Tookie HUSSIEN! GANG LEADER brought down by the just! ! !! !!!DT

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
Your stupid book also says that the alleged "son of god" told you to forgive and show the otehr cheek and that it´s only up to god to judge over life and death.

Well like I said, thanks to the Bible being so full of BS controversies you Christians get to justify almost anything with quotes!

It is not the book that is stupid, My son, but he who inteprets it wrongly. And verily, it hath happenned far too often. :(

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe


"I'm not a Crip, but he's a role model," Johnson said of Williams

Geez, what in the sam hell is this guy smoking? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

A killer being a ROLE MODEL? :rolleyes: :(

[Douglas T.]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
It is not the book that is stupid, My son, but he who inteprets it wrongly. And verily, it hath happenned far too often. :(

My friend they are not stupid just confused! Like all of us! The words are a task sometimes to understand. Almost like a lot of posts here in the DLR FORUMS! That is what I feel is the purpose. To cause deep thinking into subjects of heart and bring grace to all! Like a lot of posts here at the DLR FORUMS! There is a FAQ here to guide us! I look at the WORD of GOD as a FAQ manual for life! No body is perfect on this planet not the TERMINATOR or J.Dubyah but there must be rules to follow or the DARK LORD will prevail! Problem is that is the side a lot of people live for!! !!!DT:drive:
....excuse the soap box people ... won't happen often ...doesn't happen enough!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by scamper
Life in prison on bread and water at hard labor is suffering, not playing ball, lifting weights, getting college degrees, watching TV....

Yeah well, you forgot about the overcrowding, the anal rape, and the prisoner-led beatings with tacit approval by some guards in an inherently corrupt, lousy system (but it's the best in the world).

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral
And all at the tax payers expense.
If they're guilty, and Tookie Williams was indeed proven guilty, send them to God for their judgement and spare the tax payers the financial burdon of supporting these animals.

It actually costs more to put them to death...

[4moreyears]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
It actually costs more to put them to death...

Putting them to death is cheap, it is the appeals which are expensive.

[Hardrock69]

Bullshit.

Wages for a single night, versus a lifetime?

No way.


A concurring but separate opinion in US v Roberto Gallardo Chavez, US
Court of Appeals (8th Cir, No. 00-1404, filed October 20, 2000)

** In Fiscal 1994 it cost an average of $58.50 per day to house an
inmate in a federal institution. The average annual amount was
$21,352. The cost varies depending upon the security level of the
institution in which an inmate is confined, as well as the geographic
location of the facility. The figure, $58.50, is the system-wide
average [daily] cost. In Fiscal 1995 we estimate the average cost per
day per inmate will be $60.26, with an average annual amount of
$21,995. (Letter from Kathleen M Hawk, Director, United States
Department of Justice, and Federal Bureau of Prisons to the Honorable
Myron H Bright (July 6, 1995), on file with Judge Bright.)
Undoubtedly, these costs have increased over the past six years and
may well continue to increase in the future.





http://www.sumeria.net/politics/IIB.html
The Costs of Prohibition -- The Prison State

On average, it costs $20,000 per year to maintain one prisoner,
$100,000 to build a single prison cell, and $20,000 per year to staff
a prison cell.


So even for 10 years (instead of 30 or 40) it costs half a million bucks to house, feed and guard a prisoner.

No way doe sit cost even 1/4 that much to kill some scumbag fucker.


TOOKIE IS DEAD!!!

GOOD FUCKING RIDDANCE!!!

THEY SHOULD HAVE DONE TO HIM LIKE THEY DO IN THIRD-WORLD COUNTRIES - ONCE HE WAS FOUND GULITY, TAKE HIM OUT BACK AND PUT A BULLET IN HIS HEAD!!!
:MAD:

iT WOULD HAVE SAVED THE TAXPAYERS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD OF A MILLION BUCKS IF THEY HAD OFFED HIM BACK IN THE DAY!!!!

[scamper]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Yeah well, you forgot about the overcrowding, the anal rape, and the prisoner-led beatings with tacit approval by some guards in an inherently corrupt, lousy system (but it's the best in the world).

You're right, my sympathy goes out to all those rapist, child molesters, and murderers.

[scamper]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Yeah well, you forgot about the overcrowding, the anal rape, and the prisoner-led beatings with tacit approval by some guards in an inherently corrupt, lousy system (but it's the best in the world).

Tookie must have really managed his time well to be able to write books between getting the shit kicked out of him and taking it up the a$$ all day.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by scamper
Tookie must have really managed his time well to be able to write books between getting the shit kicked out of him and taking it up the a$$ all day.

Oh, but you see, he was on death row. That's a different kind of prison entirely.;)

[Brown Sugar]

Fuck him! I hope he rots in hell! What he got was 100 X's more humane than the cold blooded murders he committed!

So he wrote a fucking book, it didn't bring back the lives he took.

Again! Fuck him!

[Brett]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
It actually costs more to put them to death...

And worth every penny.

Bye Tookie. Thankfully our stupid ass governor made ONE good decision this year.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
It actually costs more to put them to death...

It would cost me $3.50 and about a second of my time....

Nick, you are seriously lost if you think it cost more to inject his ass with poison than it cost to feed, house and clothe him for 25 years, not to mention the tax dollars spent on his defense attorney's for his appeals and the attempts to discredit the witnesses that convicted him.

[Brett]

Most of these anti-death penalty people would feel a lot different if it was their children senselessly murdered in cold blood.

And don't say, "No I wouldn't," because until it happens to you (which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy), you really have no idea how you'd feel.

But I bet you wouldn't be so fucking adament against it, I can guarantee that.

Tell me my share to execute the scumbags on death row in San Quentin, and I'll gladly donate my share if the government promised to get it done now.

[Ally_Kat]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
Your stupid book also says that the alleged "son of god" told you to forgive and show the otehr cheek and that it´s only up to god to judge over life and death.

Well like I said, thanks to the Bible being so full of BS controversies you Christians get to justify almost anything with quotes!

Maybe people would be willing to listen to you and actual debate if you weren't insulting something personal to them, like religion. You don't believe in God, fine. I don't call you stupid for it. Get over the fact that people do believe and if mentioning it, seriously engage them in a theological debate. You might actually be able to change someone's opinion instead of just engagin in a schoolyard fight over who has the "stupid" belief.

[Wayne L.]

Can somebody send me Tookie's old gym shoes? What's Arnold's number?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Cathedral
It would cost me $3.50 and about a second of my time....

Nick, you are seriously lost if you think it cost more to inject his ass with poison than it cost to feed, house and clothe him for 25 years, not to mention the tax dollars spent on his defense attorney's for his appeals and the attempts to discredit the witnesses that convicted him.

Oh, actually, with the appeals process, and the fact that he lives in a special and expensive segregated population of inmates, yes it does in fact...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Brett
Most of these anti-death penalty people would feel a lot different if it was their children senselessly murdered in cold blood.

And don't say, "No I wouldn't," because until it happens to you (which I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy), you really have no idea how you'd feel.

But I bet you wouldn't be so fucking adament against it, I can guarantee that.

Tell me my share to execute the scumbags on death row in San Quentin, and I'll gladly donate my share if the government promised to get it done now.

The only problem is, you're assuming the only criminals are IN prison, and are not sometimes running the gov't...

Here's an example:


True Confessions?

Three sailors once confessed to murdering a Navy wife. But another man's DNA is linked to the crime. Is this another case of innocents in prison?
By BRIAN BENNETT

Dec. 12, 2005

In the eight years since Carol Moore's daughter Michelle was brutally raped and murdered in Norfolk, Va., the holidays have always seemed to shine a spotlight on that empty chair at the table. This Thanksgiving was one of the worst. Just two weeks before the feast, three Navy sailors who had confessed to killing her daughter and are serving life sentences filed a petition maintaining their innocence and requesting a full pardon. Wounds Moore had hoped were slowly closing were ripped open again. She went through the motions of the holiday like a zombie, forgetting things, unable to focus, crying. She can't imagine those men going free. She knows they did it, because she heard them--as she listened to their taped confessions at the trials--describe the gruesome things they did to her daughter. "They're guilty. Guilty. Guilty. Guilty. That's it," Moore told TIME over the phone last week. "How could someone confess to something like that if they didn't do it?"

But giving a false confession is precisely what the three sailors say they did do. In their Nov. 10 petition to outgoing Virginia Governor Mark Warner, Danial Williams, Derek Tice and Joseph Dick Jr. claim that after Norfolk homicide detectives subjected them to hours of harsh and manipulative questioning, they fabricated elaborate details of a rape and murder that they had absolutely nothing to do with. The three were only part of a larger group of eight men who, over the course of a two-year investigation and three trials, were charged with the 1997 murder of Navy wife Michelle Moore-Bosko. Five of the men at one time or another confessed, but just one, Omar Ballard, had any material evidence linking him to the scene of the crime. (One of the men, Eric Wilson, was convicted only on charges of rape and released earlier this fall after more than seven years in prison; charges were eventually dropped against three others.)

Over the past year, a team of lawyers, approached by the nonprofit Innocence Project, spent thousands of pro bono hours conducting interviews, gathering documents and asking experts to compare the confessions of the sailors with the crime-scene evidence. What the team compiled was a laundry list of inconsistencies that it hopes will be enough to sway Warner just as the Governor is about to leave office and possibly make a run for the Democratic presidential nomination. Warner just last week spared the life of death-row inmate Robin Lovitt, citing the destruction of DNA evidence that might have cleared his name. But with no looming execution date for the Norfolk Three, their request could fall to Warner's successor, Tim Kaine.

Hard as their story may be for Carol Moore and others to believe, the Norfolk Three's case is just the latest instance of judicial reappraisal in which DNA evidence seems to contradict previous criminal confessions. In recent years, new DNA sequencing technology has allowed the American justice system to right more than 150 wrongful convictions--and almost a quarter of those had been based on a false confession. The most high-profile example is the 1989 Central Park jogger case, in which five teenagers who had confessed to raping a woman were cleared 13 years later after DNA analysis of evidence couldn't link them to the crime scene.

A 2002 study from Northwestern University showed that 59% of all miscarriages of justice in homicide investigations in Illinois--where a year later Governor George Ryan commuted all death sentences--involved false confessions. But despite such evidence, few confessions are ever thrown out. According to Richard J. Ofshe, a social psychologist at the University of California, Berkeley, and an expert in false confessions, only recently have juries been allowed to hear testimony about the phenomenon, which can occur as a result of coercion, exhaustion or mental impairment. The juries in the Norfolk trials were not among those. Many experts say the solution is to require police to videotape all interrogations and confessions of suspects in capital cases, as is the law in Minnesota, Illinois, Alaska and Maine.

Moore-Bosko's murder resonated in Norfolk, a Navy town, because sailors' wives are often left at home alone while their husbands are at sea. The 18-year-old newlywed was slain in the early-morning hours of July 8, 1997, in her apartment in a low-rent brick building. She had been expecting her husband Billy, a Navy signalman, home that day from his weeklong tour of duty. After Billy discovered her body, stabbed in the chest, on the bedroom floor, the local police were under enormous pressure to solve the crime quickly. By the second day of the investigation, the clues seemed to be falling nicely into place; a witness had identified Moore-Bosko's neighbor Williams as having been stalking her.

Williams went to the police station, thinking he was summoned just to answer a few more questions, he told TIME by phone from prison last week. Since he trusted the police and believed in his innocence, he says, he didn't ask for a lawyer. He maintained he had been in bed the entire night of the rape and murder, with his wife Nicole, who days before had had a hysterectomy. (Williams says the detectives never asked Nicole what she remembered, and she died of ovarian cancer three months later.) But it was at the station, in a windowless room, that the detectives began to browbeat Williams, and he began to, as he now puts it, "question my own memory." By his account, they told him they knew he was obsessed with Moore-Bosko and had raped and killed her. They told him they had an eyewitness who saw him leave the victim's apartment. (No such witness existed.) They told him that unless he confessed and cooperated, he would face the death penalty. Williams asked to take a lie-detector test, which he passed, but he says the detectives told him he had failed.

After close to 13 hours, the detectives had his confession and, in their minds, didn't need to look any further. But six months later, Williams' DNA evidence didn't match blood or semen found on the scene or the skin found under Moore-Bosko's fingernails. The detectives' conclusion was that Williams hadn't acted alone. So they brought in Joseph Dick Jr., who had been living with Williams and his wife at the time. The night of Moore-Bosko's murder, Dick told the detectives at first, he was on duty, a fact they never checked. (Navy senior chief Michael Ziegler, who was Dick's direct supervisor, confirmed to TIME that Dick had been scheduled for duty.) Still, after hours of interrogation, Dick too confessed. His father, who says Dick has been slow since getting hit in the head by a swing when he was 3, believes the police could "convince my son to sign anything." But again, his DNA didn't match, and Dick gave the police more names, one of which led to Tice. "In the light of day, you say you wouldn't confess," says Tice over the phone from prison, "but in that room with [the detectives] standing over you, you get worn down."

In March 1999, detectives finally got a DNA match after Omar Ballard, a convicted rapist and onetime acquaintance of Moore-Bosko's, confessed in a graphic letter to a friend that he had killed her. In his first audiotaped confession, given after just 20 minutes of questioning, Ballard described the rape with previously undisclosed details from the crime scene and said he had acted alone. Ballard changed his story at the behest of the detectives, the petition says, claiming he had perpetrated the crime along with four other men. In the petition, Ballard stands by his original claim that he had acted alone.

Still, even Ballard's testimony won't necessarily be able to turn back the clock. While Tice firmly protested his innocence through two separate trials, both Williams and Dick ended up pleading guilty. The reason may be understandable in retrospect--both their lawyers told them to stick to the story to avoid the death penalty--but the fact that they affirmed their confessions doesn't help their case. No wonder prosecutor D.J. Hansen, who put the men behind bars, says there is nothing new in the petition that wasn't tested in the normal judicial process. "Justice was done," he says. But as Carol Moore has learned the hard way, in the age of CSI and DNA, justice is never truly done, even if it appears as if the truth has already spoken.
TIME Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1137691,00.html)


I'd bet you'd feel differently if you knew somebody was exonerated long after they were executed. It's rare, but it does happen...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by scamper
You're right, my sympathy goes out to all those rapist, child molesters, and murderers.

Really...That makes me "right," huh? What do you feel about innocent people being executed by the state? Does that get your rocks off too?

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=781251#post781251

Where was anybodies' outrage over that?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Really...That makes me "right," huh? What do you feel about innocent people being executed by the state? Does that get your rocks off too?

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=781251#post781251

Where was anybodies' outrage over that?

BTW, I'm not necessarily against the death penalty. I could give a fuck about TOOKIE WILLIAMS, and the left that is willing to celebrate a "cause celeb death penalty case" like that of that Philadelphia cop-killer guy...

But I find it highly interesting that everyone can flock to this thread and celebrate a TOOKIE snuffing, but NOT ONE SINGLE, SOLITARY COMMENT ON AN INNOCENT MAN BEING EXECUTED.

Interesting. No leftist celebrities said anything either I see...

[Nickdfresh]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2005/06/28/PH2005062800455.gif

No Special Break for Tookie
Celebrities and 'Redemption' Aren't the Point. States Shouldn't Kill.

By Eugene Robinson (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/01/AR2005120101396.html?nav=rss_opinion/columns)

Friday, December 2, 2005; Page A23

Big-time Hollywood stars, including Jamie Foxx, Snoop Dogg and Danny Glover, are leading a high-profile campaign to persuade another big-time Hollywood star, Arnold Schwarzenegger, to save the life of a convicted murderer on California's death row named Stanley Tookie Williams. Sorry, but I can't join the glitterati in showing the love.

Williams's case is about the power of redemption, his supporters say, but I think it's more about the power of celebrity. The state shouldn't execute Williams, but only because the state shouldn't execute anybody -- the death penalty is a barbaric anachronism that should have been eliminated long ago, as far as I'm concerned. But it can't be right to save Williams just because he's a famous desperado (or former desperado) with famous friends, and then blithely go back to snuffing out the lives of other criminals who lack his talent for public relations.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2005/12/01/PH2005120101541.jpg
Actor Jamie Foxx poses with Stanley Tookie Williams.
Actor Jamie Foxx poses with Stanley Tookie Williams. (2003 Photo Courtesy Williams Family Via Associated Press)

Tookie Williams, scheduled to be executed by lethal injection on Dec. 13, is famous because he was a co-founder of the Crips -- the Los Angeles street gang whose epic war with a rival gang, the Bloods, is one of the founding legends of the "gangsta" strain of hip-hop culture.

Snoop Dogg was briefly a Crip before discovering it was much more lucrative, and much less dangerous, to recite clever couplets about nihilistic violence than to actually participate in turf battles, shootouts and beat-downs.

"Now tell me, what's my [expletive] name?" Snoop boasted on one of his early songs. "Serial Killa!" the chorus shouted in response. But it was all make-believe for Snoop -- these days, you can see him in a television commercial playing golf with Lee Iacocca. The vast majority of his fans understood all along his music was just artifice, and I'm not ready to hold the artist responsible for the relative few who took all his pretend violence and misogyny seriously.

But Williams is a different story: The bullets in his gat were real. He was convicted of the 1979 murders of four people in two separate robberies -- convenience store worker Albert Owens, 26; and motel owners Yen-I Yang, 76; Tsai-Shai Yang, 63; and their daughter Yee-Chen Lin, 43. Williams has been on death row since 1981; that he has consistently maintained his innocence of all four killings hardly makes him unique. There's no dramatic new DNA evidence or anything like that to cast doubt on his guilt.

What does make him special, according to his supporters, is that he has been so lavishly repentant about the culture of violence he helped create.

Since about 10 years ago, Williams has been apologizing for his role in founding the Crips -- in recorded messages meant to be heard by youth groups, and in a series of children's books. A longtime supporter maintains a Web site where Williams, using the overly flowery language of a jailhouse autodidact, urges young people to stay away from gangs. True believers have even suggested him for the Nobel Peace Prize.

In 2004 actor Foxx starred as Tookie Williams in a made-for-TV movie, "Redemption," that sought to portray his behind-bars transformation from gangster to Gandhi. In interviews, Foxx has said he is convinced that Williams's metamorphosis is genuine.

But Williams's time is running out. This week the California Supreme Court rejected a final appeal to reopen his case, and intervention by the federal courts is considered unlikely. Williams's supporters are asking Schwarzenegger to use his power as governor to intervene and commute Williams's death sentence to life without parole. The governor has agreed to consider Williams's case.

Of course, there are hundreds of other men on death row who repent of their crimes and would appreciate a little executive clemency, but they don't have movie stars pleading their cases. Oh, and also lacking a publicity machine are the four people Williams was convicted of killing.

For me, this case just reinforces my belief that there is no way the death penalty can be fairly applied. Among the ranks of the condemned are few genuinely innocent men -- although one is too many. But death row is brimming with genuinely repentant men, not because some divine revelation has hit them but simply because they have grown older.

Tookie Williams is 51; his body has softened, his rage dissipated. The state of California will not be killing the same man it sentenced to death 24 years ago. But don't buy the argument that he's a special case, because he's not.

eugenerobinson@washpost.com

[Hardrock69]

FUCK TOOKIE WILLIAMS.

Who the fuck cares about any of this bullshit!

The fucker is DEAD. And good fucking riddance!!!

:cool:

[scamper]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
The only problem is, you're assuming the only criminals are IN prison, and are not sometimes running the gov't...

Here's an example:


TIME Magazine (http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1137691,00.html)


I'd bet you'd feel differently if you knew somebody was exonerated long after they were executed. It's rare, but it does happen...

The key to this story is that the true rapist was previously convicted of rape, why was he on the street. Rape is no less brutal than murder he should have been dead too.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
It actually costs more to put them to death...

Where the hell do you get this?

So you are saying him being in jail for another possible 25 years or more would cost the taxpayers of California less?

Right!

[Brown Sugar]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh

But I find it highly interesting that everyone can flock to this thread and celebrate a TOOKIE snuffing, but NOT ONE SINGLE, SOLITARY COMMENT ON AN INNOCENT MAN BEING EXECUTED.



Here's the thing. How many guilty men do we let live in oder to prevent possibly killing one innocent one? It's very hard to convict someone to death in our country for this reason, let alone even find someone guilty. (i.e. OJ Simpson/Robert Blake.) Usually, if someone is prosecuted and sentenced to death there is some pretty compelling evidence. Even bloody socks didn't send OJ to prison.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by scamper
The key to this story is that the true rapist was previously convicted of rape, why was he on the street. Rape is no less brutal than murder he should have been dead too.

Um, I think you need to read that again kiddo....

A bunch of guys who are innocent went to jail because the local police were on a witchhunt to get a conviction, whether the convictee was guilty or not....

[Warham]

I liked those people down in Florida when Bundy was put in the chair. They unplugged everything in their houses just to make sure Ted got enough juice.

[4moreyears]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Um, I think you need to read that again kiddo....

A bunch of guys who are innocent went to jail because the local police were on a witchhunt to get a conviction, whether the convictee was guilty or not....

I would agree this happens.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Where the hell do you get this?

So you are saying him being in jail for another possible 25 years or more would cost the taxpayers of California less?

Right!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_punishment_in_the_United_States
(Last two para's)


Debate over the death penalty centers around four issues: whether it is morally correct to kill; whether the death penalty serves as a deterrent; whether the penalty is being applied fairly across racial, social, and economic classes; and whether the irrevocability of the penalty is justified considering possible new evidence or future revelations of improper conduct by the state. It is also claimed that the financial costs of a complete death penalty case exceed the total costs of a lifetime of incarceration. Between 1976 and 2003, less than 2% of death row prisoners were exonerated, while others had their sentences reduced for other reasons. This amounted to 112 prisoners released.

Since the death penalty was reinstated in Illinois in 1977, 12 men have been executed. During that same period, 13 innocent men were freed from death row.[18]...




COST STUDIES
I wish I could tell you exactly how much the death penalty costs in Nevada...-- it's easy to state the question, but complicated to answer. Nevertheless, there have been some studies by government agencies, by the media, and by independent researchers that create a clearer picture.

The studies differ widely in the states they cover...I am aware of no careful study that contradicts the conclusion that a death penalty system is considerably more expensive than a system in which life imprisonment is the most severe punishment.

--Richard Dieter
Link (http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/article.php?scid=7&did=258)

[Warham]

I would actually prefer Bill O'Reilly's method of dealing with these criminals but it'll never happen in this country, if the ACLU has anything to say about it.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh

But I find it highly interesting that everyone can flock to this thread and celebrate a TOOKIE snuffing, but NOT ONE SINGLE, SOLITARY COMMENT ON AN INNOCENT MAN BEING EXECUTED.



That's not what the fucking thread is about...:rolleyes:

[diamondD]

No doubt, were we supposed to just start jumping up and down about a different subject or something? Tookie's not an innocent man by any means.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
That's not what the fucking thread is about...:rolleyes:

So? Since when do threads stay on topic?

[scamper]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Um, I think you need to read that again kiddo....

A bunch of guys who are innocent went to jail because the local police were on a witchhunt to get a conviction, whether the convictee was guilty or not....

No the point is if this rapist was not roaming around alive and free the woman would be alive and no innocent people would be in jail. Everyone already knows you can't trust the government (ie police, presidents, senators...). Moral of the story "Keep your nose clean and don't sign confessions to crimes you didn't comit".

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by scamper
No the point is if this rapist was not roaming around alive and free the woman would be alive and no innocent people would be in jail. Everyone already knows you can't trust the government (ie police, presidents, senators...). Moral of the story "Keep your nose clean and don't sign confessions to crimes you didn't comit".

Mmmm...sounds like you're blaming the victims. By the way, the CHICAGO TRIBUNE unearthed volumes of evidence that there was significant "prosecutorial misconduct" by ILLINOIS prosecutors that ultimately, inevitably led to the death of innocents, perhaps over a dozen...

[scamper]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Mmmm...sounds like you're blaming the victims. By the way, the CHICAGO TRIBUNE unearthed volumes of evidence that there wqs significant "prosecutorial misconduct" by ILLINOIS prosecutors that ultimately, inevitably led to the death of innocents, perhaps over a dozen...

I'm blaming the system for letting the rapist out of jail in the first place. If the people in jail are innocent they should be let out and compensated (if that is possible after ruining someones life). There seems to be more to the story then the article states.

[Cathedral]

I think those who continue to cry about Tookie Williams should do some research and find out just what kind of prisoner he really was.

He wasn't a model prisoner by any means and as an anti-violence advocate he wasn't very effective.
he was involved in a whole lot of crimes while in the big house and used threats and manipulation to get what he wanted.
He even threatened prison guards families with late night visits by the gangs he was speaking out against if they didn't do as he requested.

Oh yeah, he would been such a positive contributor to soceity had he been allowed to live.

Putting him to rest sends a broader message to the gangs though, like the "This could be YOU" message.

I could care less what a brutal murdering slug has to say and those who want these kinds of people treated like humans will someday learn why that is a wrong sentiment to have.
You want to show mercy to people who have none for you or anyone else....That's just a bit dillusional if you ask me.

[ELVIS]

Very nicely put...

[Cathedral]

You know what pissed me off the most?
The way this story was covered by the media.

I thought it was a joke how a few journalists say Tookie was intimidating in the way he stared at people, c'mon, intimidating?

The dude was just about to be injected with poison, how intimidating could he be?

I would have laughed at him and smiled ear to ear as i waved bye bye to the mother fucker.

My only regret is that his death wasn't more painful for him.

[ELVIS]

I'm quite sure it wasn't a plesant experience...

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I'm quite sure it wasn't a plesant experience...

I liked your idea of public executions.
We need an Execution Square in every mall across america, like a kiosk that just fries people until death row is empty and society gets the message.
It's extreme i know, it's damn extreme, but society has become equally extreme and barring everything else, most of it isn't sending the right message to our youth in the first place.

I have been in a few malls the last few weeks and let me tell you, I'm ashamed to let my daughter walk through one. the images, innuendos, and the way things are even marketed to children amazes me...it's heart breaking, and it's wreckless.

I see nothing but GREED everywhere i look, especially now being it's Christmas -n- stuff.

Merry Christmas Everyone! ~lol~ hohoho!

[ELVIS]

Three ho's in a row...;)

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
I'm quite sure it wasn't a plesant experience...

It wasn't "plesant" at all you illiterate fag.;) I don't think it was pleasant either though...

[ELVIS]

Sorry...:rolleyes:

[jhale667]

Originally posted by Cathedral


Putting him to rest sends a broader message to the gangs though, like the "This could be YOU" message.



...That's pretty much where I'm at on this issue. Gang fucks think they're INVINCIBLE, and they need a collective wake-up call.

[diamondD]

Most likely, the bangers who this is supposed to scare don't pay any attention to the news anyway.

Keepin' it real!

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by diamondD
Most likely, the bangers who this is supposed to scare don't pay any attention to the news anyway.

Keepin' it real!

Oh they're paying attention, you can believe that. One of their own just paid the piper, they are well aware of what happened to Tookie.

And if not, then who was he influencing to give up gang life?

Justice prevailed in this case, case closed.

[diamondD]

I agree totally about justice being served. But I guarantee most of them can actually tell you as much about Tookie as they can in reality about Malcolm X. They just hold them up in reverence without a clue as to what they did.

[thome]

I shall forthwith be referred to as- Tookie thome-,since the name is
no longer being used.

Like this -I got religion in the joint- too late, crispy critter , doesn't need
it anymore?


Good buy tookie, you won't be missed!

[Jerry Falwell]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
but there is a point where God would forgive a murderer, correct?

I know that this comment is coming awful late, but I am just now getting a chance to view this website for the first time in a couple of weeks.

As for the comment quoted above, I believe that Jesus Christ himself set the example for us to follow. Did he believe in forgiveness...Absolutely. Did he tell people that they did not have to pay for the crimes that they committed... No Way. Just look at his death. While hanging on the cross, he looked at a thief being crucified next to him and forgave him of his sins. He told him that he would see him in Heaven. Nowhere do you see that he saved the guy, and he had ample power to do so... actually, I believe that Jesus acknowledged that he knew he had sinned and was receiving the proper punishment (in that day in age) for what he had done. Check these verses out.

39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"

40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."

42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[f]"

43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

All this said, I don't feel like someone should be spared the death sentence just because they have changed their act in prison. They still have to be held accountable for their actions. This view in no way contradicts Christian faith at all.

[Jerry Falwell]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ
From the 8th chapter of John's Gospel..... My views of the death penalty

1 Jesus went unto the mount of Olives.

2 And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them.

3 And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst,

4 They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.

5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?

6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.

7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

8 And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.

9 And they which heard it, being convicted by their own conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.

10 When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?

11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.

Ford, you are the one who has misunderstood this passage. According to Deut. 17:5-6 a man/woman is to be punished if there is two or more witnesses, right? Also, Christ said that he did not come to abolish the law, but instead to fulfill the law! All that happened in this passage you quoted above is that Christ knew that these people had the wrong heart behind punishing her. He simply posed a question that convicted them all. Since at the end of the question, there were no more accusers (who more than likely had all committed such types of sins behind closed doors) left to cast the first stone (Which was the law according to the Deut. passage cited above), then he punishment could not be carried out. However, had there been two individuals present that were pure, witnessed her transgression, and were willing to cast the first stone, then I believe that Christ himself would have felt this act as justified.

[Nickdfresh]

Praise Jesus. Another criminal executed.


I want to wipe out an entire village with chemical weapons, lemme see, where's that bible passage I can interpret to make it all okay?

[Jerry Falwell]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Praise Jesus. Another criminal executed.


I want to wipe out an entire village with chemical weapons, lemme see, where's that bible passage I can interpret to make it all okay?

You obviously don't know my heart. :(
I don't use the Bible for justification of doing something wrong. And I never try and twist the meaning of something to benefit myself. Actually, on the contrary, I daily find myself and things that I do being put in check by the Bible and the Holy Spirit. It's a great guide to live by and I have never had more peace than the recent few years that I have started taking its contents to heart (for what it's worth).

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Jerry Falwell

I don't use the Bible for justification of doing something wrong. And I never try and twist the meaning of something to benefit myself.

Well, you just revealed yourself as an imposter!

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Praise Jesus. Another criminal executed.


I want to wipe out an entire village with chemical weapons, lemme see, where's that bible passage I can interpret to make it all okay?

Was the entire population of that village tried and convicted in a court of law for brutally killing innocent people?
If not, then i wouldn't suggest doing that.

But before you go attacking real christians by lumping them in with those who are not, just remember it was California Law that executed Tookie Williams, NOT Christians or the Bible.

It wasn't his soul that was judged here, only his flesh.
When the bible speaks of judgement it speaks of it in the context that God is the Judge of our souls.
The Bible teaches us that we are to abide by the laws of the land, and Tookie's punishment in his land was a penalty of death.

Man didn't judge his soul, but man sent him before the creator to answer for his sins and face his spiritual judgement.

[FORD]

Honestly answer this question, right wingers...

Who committed more murders? Tookie Williams, or George Bush Jr.?

And yes, war based on complete LIES is murder.

[ELVIS]

Why does everything have to relove around your twisted logic ??

[Warham]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Was the entire population of that village tried and convicted in a court of law for brutally killing innocent people?
If not, then i wouldn't suggest doing that.

But before you go attacking real christians by lumping them in with those who are not, just remember it was California Law that executed Tookie Williams, NOT Christians or the Bible.

It wasn't his soul that was judged here, only his flesh.
When the bible speaks of judgement it speaks of it in the context that God is the Judge of our souls.
The Bible teaches us that we are to abide by the laws of the land, and Tookie's punishment in his land was a penalty of death.

Man didn't judge his soul, but man sent him before the creator to answer for his sins and face his spiritual judgement.

Let's not bring the law into this, Cat. Liberals only like to argue with their hearts, not logic.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Let's not bring the law into this, Cat. Liberals only like to argue with their hearts, not logic.

Oh, the ironic'y of it all...

Uhuhuhuhuhuhuhuhuh!

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by FORD
Honestly answer this question, right wingers...

Who committed more murders? Tookie Williams, or George Bush Jr.?

And yes, war based on complete LIES is murder.

George Bush didn't murder anyone by saving millions of Iraqi's from occupying a mass grave.
But if you want to go by the numbers i'd say that more than 2000 lives have been saved from those mass graves.

Iraqi's are still people too, Ford, and if we as a nation can help the oppressed then it is our duty as a super power to take action.

You may distinguish between Americans and Iraqi's but to me we are equal under God and it is still the responsibility of the strong to protect the weak.
They bleed red just like you and I do, Ford...So i ask you, left winger...Where is your compassion for your fellow man?

My guess is that it is swallowed up by hatred and contempt for Bush.

But again, let me point out that Tookie Williams was tried, convicted, and sentenced for his crimes where to date even the hardest core Liberal hasn't been able to bring one criminal charge against Bush.

Ya see man, I believe in the idea that people are innocent until proven guilty, but in the mind of the liberal it is more like, Guilty until the conspiracy is proven false.... And i'm sorry to be the one to inform you, but that ain't the american way, my friend.

[ELVIS]

Ironic'y ??

I don't think so...

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Cathedral
I believe in the idea that people are innocent until proven guilty, but in the mind of the liberal it is more like, Guilty until the conspiracy is proven false....

Words of wisdom, my friend...

Words of wisdom...


:elvis:

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Words of wisdom, my friend...

Words of wisdom...


:elvis:

It's true, and any number of threads in this forum can prove that to be a fact.

But i apologize for using the word "Fact", Lib's just never seemed to learn its actual definition.

They post nothing but negativity, never anything positive and i fail to see how that helps or supports the troops.
The catch phrase, "I support them by wanting them home ASAP" is totally ignorant to how the reality of war works.

They are there, they will remain there until the job is done, so stop crying about Bush and stand behind the troops where you belong...anything less is NOT supporting them no matter how much your denial tells you otherwise.

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Cathedral
They post nothing but negativity, never anything positive and i fail to see how that helps or supports the troops.


More words of wisdom...;)


That's exactly right...

Nothing but negativity and naysaying, for lack of a better word...


But, they have absolutely nothing to bring to the table...

[Cathedral]

I've been all ears for an alternative approach, but i hear nothing but Bush this, Bush that, Bush, Bush, Bush......

I'm not even sure the left knows the table exists to bring anything to in the first place.

You know why i'll never fit in the Democratic Party?
Because i live life with a half full mentality, my glass is never in fear of being empty.
I wasn't always that way, but certain life lessons have conditioned me to remain positive at all times.

[ELVIS]

BUSH LIED, PEOPLE DIED...:rolleyes:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by Cathedral
Because i live life with a half full mentality, my glass is never in fear of being empty.
I wasn't always that way, but certain life lessons have conditioned me to remain positive at all times.

Awesome...

That's a few steps towards redirecting that anger streak...;)

[4moreyears]

Twas the night before Execution and all through San Quentin, the crips were protesting while the liberals were ventin'. The cyanide hung by the chamber with care, in hopes that the reaper soon would be there. The inmates were nestled all snug in their bed .. except for ol' Tookie, who soon would be dead. And me with my beer mug, dressed warm in my flannel, had curled up to watch it, on the Fox News Channel. I set up my TIVO to record the news station, and thoroughly loved the
momentous occasion.
It seemed lady justice had gotten her way, and that there would be one
less savage today. When outside the jail there arose such a clatter, the cameras had turned to see what was the matter. When what to my civilized eyes did appear, but a lineup of actors, all liberal, half queer. The misguided freaks drew some curious looks, as they proclaimed Tookie's innocence, while clutching his books. The tears then flew out from Sarandon's eyes, as she nominated him again for the Nobel Peace Prize. The actors were tethered to an ACLU sleigh, all towing the line of the urban decay. On Asner, on Penn, on liberal cop-haters, on Sharpton, on Jesse and other race-baiters. Then at 3:01 all curled up like a beetle, Tookie cried like a bitch as they gave him the needle. When up from the actors there arose such a cry, they had failed in their mission, and Tookie did die. I heard Bill O'Reilly say, as I turned out my light, Merry Christmas to all ... there was justice tonight.

[Cathedral]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Awesome...

That's a few steps towards redirecting that anger streak...;)

Yeah, but it's being redirected at Democrats, lmmfao.
Sometimes i just want to scream and strangle them because i cannot for the life of me see the logic in what they say and do.

I'm not talking people here so much as the people i deal with every day, it's like i could have more coherent conversation with an infant.

Me: Goo-Agoo

Baby: Gabba Gabba Hey

Then we have ice cream and listen to the Ramones...

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Ironic'y ??

I don't think...

Ever...

[Wayne L.]

Clarence Thomas has sexy feet.

[DrMaddVibe]

Funny that the Reverend Jesse "Stuck On Stupid" Jackson was at TO's birthday bash the night they stuck ol' Tookie down.

BAW-HAHAHAHAHAHA!

Pass the Cristal bee-yotch!!!!