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View Full Version : America can't abandon 27 million Iraqis to 10,000 terrorists.



Warham
11-30-2005, 01:41 PM
Our Troops Must Stay

America can't abandon 27 million Iraqis to 10,000 terrorists.

BY JOE LIEBERMAN

Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:01 a.m. EST

I have just returned from my fourth trip to Iraq in the past 17 months and can report real progress there. More work needs to be done, of course, but the Iraqi people are in reach of a watershed transformation from the primitive, killing tyranny of Saddam to modern, self-governing, self-securing nationhood--unless the great American military that has given them and us this unexpected opportunity is prematurely withdrawn.

Progress is visible and practical. In the Kurdish North, there is continuing security and growing prosperity. The primarily Shiite South remains largely free of terrorism, receives much more electric power and other public services than it did under Saddam, and is experiencing greater economic activity. The Sunni triangle, geographically defined by Baghdad to the east, Tikrit to the north and Ramadi to the west, is where most of the terrorist enemy attacks occur. And yet here, too, there is progress.

There are many more cars on the streets, satellite television dishes on the roofs, and literally millions more cell phones in Iraqi hands than before. All of that says the Iraqi economy is growing. And Sunni candidates are actively campaigning for seats in the National Assembly. People are working their way toward a functioning society and economy in the midst of a very brutal, inhumane, sustained terrorist war against the civilian population and the Iraqi and American military there to protect it.

It is a war between 27 million and 10,000; 27 million Iraqis who want to live lives of freedom, opportunity and prosperity and roughly 10,000 terrorists who are either Saddam revanchists, Iraqi Islamic extremists or al Qaeda foreign fighters who know their wretched causes will be set back if Iraq becomes free and modern. The terrorists are intent on stopping this by instigating a civil war to produce the chaos that will allow Iraq to replace Afghanistan as the base for their fanatical war-making. We are fighting on the side of the 27 million because the outcome of this war is critically important to the security and freedom of America. If the terrorists win, they will be emboldened to strike us directly again and to further undermine the growing stability and progress in the Middle East, which has long been a major American national and economic security priority.

Before going to Iraq last week, I visited Israel and the Palestinian Authority. Israel has been the only genuine democracy in the region, but it is now getting some welcome company from the Iraqis and Palestinians who are in the midst of robust national legislative election campaigns, the Lebanese who have risen up in proud self-determination after the Hariri assassination to eject their Syrian occupiers (the Syrian- and Iranian-backed Hezbollah militias should be next), and the Kuwaitis, Egyptians and Saudis who have taken steps to open up their governments more broadly to their people. In my meeting with the thoughtful prime minister of Iraq, Ibrahim al-Jaafari, he declared with justifiable pride that his country now has the most open, democratic political system in the Arab world. He is right.

In the face of terrorist threats and escalating violence, eight million Iraqis voted for their interim national government in January, almost 10 million participated in the referendum on their new constitution in October, and even more than that are expected to vote in the elections for a full-term government on Dec. 15. Every time the 27 million Iraqis have been given the chance since Saddam was overthrown, they have voted for self-government and hope over the violence and hatred the 10,000 terrorists offer them. Most encouraging has been the behavior of the Sunni community, which, when disappointed by the proposed constitution, registered to vote and went to the polls instead of taking up arms and going to the streets. Last week, I was thrilled to see a vigorous political campaign, and a large number of independent television stations and newspapers covering it.

None of these remarkable changes would have happened without the coalition forces led by the U.S. And, I am convinced, almost all of the progress in Iraq and throughout the Middle East will be lost if those forces are withdrawn faster than the Iraqi military is capable of securing the country.

The leaders of Iraq's duly elected government understand this, and they asked me for reassurance about America's commitment. The question is whether the American people and enough of their representatives in Congress from both parties understand this. I am disappointed by Democrats who are more focused on how President Bush took America into the war in Iraq almost three years ago, and by Republicans who are more worried about whether the war will bring them down in next November's elections, than they are concerned about how we continue the progress in Iraq in the months and years ahead.

Here is an ironic finding I brought back from Iraq. While U.S. public opinion polls show serious declines in support for the war and increasing pessimism about how it will end, polls conducted by Iraqis for Iraqi universities show increasing optimism. Two-thirds say they are better off than they were under Saddam, and a resounding 82% are confident their lives in Iraq will be better a year from now than they are today. What a colossal mistake it would be for America's bipartisan political leadership to choose this moment in history to lose its will and, in the famous phrase, to seize defeat from the jaws of the coming victory.

The leaders of America's military and diplomatic forces in Iraq, Gen. George Casey and Ambassador Zal Khalilzad, have a clear and compelling vision of our mission there. It is to create the environment in which Iraqi democracy, security and prosperity can take hold and the Iraqis themselves can defend their political progress against those 10,000 terrorists who would take it from them.

Does America have a good plan for doing this, a strategy for victory in Iraq? Yes we do. And it is important to make it clear to the American people that the plan has not remained stubbornly still but has changed over the years. Mistakes, some of them big, were made after Saddam was removed, and no one who supports the war should hesitate to admit that; but we have learned from those mistakes and, in characteristic American fashion, from what has worked and not worked on the ground. The administration's recent use of the banner "clear, hold and build" accurately describes the strategy as I saw it being implemented last week.

We are now embedding a core of coalition forces in every Iraqi fighting unit, which makes each unit more effective and acts as a multiplier of our forces. Progress in "clearing" and "holding" is being made. The Sixth Infantry Division of the Iraqi Security Forces now controls and polices more than one-third of Baghdad on its own. Coalition and Iraqi forces have together cleared the previously terrorist-controlled cities of Fallujah, Mosul and Tal Afar, and most of the border with Syria. Those areas are now being "held" secure by the Iraqi military themselves. Iraqi and coalition forces are jointly carrying out a mission to clear Ramadi, now the most dangerous city in Al-Anbar province at the west end of the Sunni Triangle.

Nationwide, American military leaders estimate that about one-third of the approximately 100,000 members of the Iraqi military are able to "lead the fight" themselves with logistical support from the U.S., and that that number should double by next year. If that happens, American military forces could begin a drawdown in numbers proportional to the increasing self-sufficiency of the Iraqi forces in 2006. If all goes well, I believe we can have a much smaller American military presence there by the end of 2006 or in 2007, but it is also likely that our presence will need to be significant in Iraq or nearby for years to come.

The economic reconstruction of Iraq has gone slower than it should have, and too much money has been wasted or stolen. Ambassador Khalilzad is now implementing reform that has worked in Afghanistan--Provincial Reconstruction Teams, composed of American economic and political experts, working in partnership in each of Iraq's 18 provinces with its elected leadership, civil service and the private sector. That is the "build" part of the "clear, hold and build" strategy, and so is the work American and international teams are doing to professionalize national and provincial governmental agencies in Iraq.

These are new ideas that are working and changing the reality on the ground, which is undoubtedly why the Iraqi people are optimistic about their future--and why the American people should be, too.

I cannot say enough about the U.S. Army and Marines who are carrying most of the fight for us in Iraq. They are courageous, smart, effective, innovative, very honorable and very proud. After a Thanksgiving meal with a great group of Marines at Camp Fallujah in western Iraq, I asked their commander whether the morale of his troops had been hurt by the growing public dissent in America over the war in Iraq. His answer was insightful, instructive and inspirational: "I would guess that if the opposition and division at home go on a lot longer and get a lot deeper it might have some effect, but, Senator, my Marines are motivated by their devotion to each other and the cause, not by political debates."

Thank you, General. That is a powerful, needed message for the rest of America and its political leadership at this critical moment in our nation's history. Semper Fi.


Mr. Lieberman is a Democratic senator from Connecticut.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110007611

FORD
11-30-2005, 01:46 PM
Mr Lieberman is a Likud senator who needs to fucking resign and drag his traitorous ass out of this country.

Warham
11-30-2005, 01:59 PM
Negative, negative, negative.

Do you ever wake up and look forward to your day, or is it always cloudy over your home?

FORD
11-30-2005, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Negative, negative, negative.

Do you ever wake up and look forward to your day, or is it always cloudy over your home?

I live in a state where the sun shines 8 weeks a year if we're lucky. What do you think?

But that's not the point. Holy Joe needs to figure out which country he represents. If he wants to continue to put the interests of Israeli expansionist Zionism above the security of the United States of America, then he should fucking move there.

Warham
11-30-2005, 02:18 PM
He represents the United States from what I've seen of his career service to our country.

Are you claiming that somehow him being a Jew has something to do with this?

FORD
11-30-2005, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Warham
He represents the United States from what I've seen of his career service to our country.

Are you claiming that somehow him being a Jew has something to do with this?

Not a Jew. A right wing Likud Expansionist Zionist. There is a huge difference.

If Herr Gropenator signed some trade agreements that gave an unfair advantage to Austria (where he remains a citizen) I would be just as suspicious of his motives.

Warham
11-30-2005, 02:29 PM
I'd like some proof that he's a Likud Expansionist Zionist. I'm not just going to accept your accusation at face value.

FORD
11-30-2005, 02:39 PM
He's on record as supporting the PNAC agenda 100%. He enthusiastically supported Sharon the Butcher's tribute to the Berlin Wall. And I believe he was opposed to the recent pullout of Israeli settlements from Gaza.

The fact that he makes a point of mentioning Israel in the above article should be enough of a red flag for you.

Oops, did I say red flag? I guess you forgot about PNAC's "new" flag for Iraq...

http://lawrenceofcyberia.blogs.com/news/images/iq1.gif

Now why does that look so familiar.........

Warham
11-30-2005, 02:54 PM
Here's the flag they unveiled. Straight from the libs favorite website: aljazeera.net...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/28/Iraq-flag.gif

"The white stands for peace and a new start for Iraq, whilst the crescent represents Islam," al-Kafaai said, adding the blue strips represented Iraq's main rivers, the Tigris and Euphrates, and the yellow represented its Kurdish population."

Doesn't seem like much of a conspiracy to me.

FORD
11-30-2005, 03:31 PM
So they added a yellow stripe to it. It still resembles the Israeli flag a great deal. And they wonder where the insurgency comes from. :rolleyes:

Nickdfresh
11-30-2005, 03:31 PM
How about 10,000 "guerillas" (mostly)? And they couldn't function without a significant support of the population.

And we're supporting plenty of "terrorist" death squad units ourselves. I guess we'll "abandon" our all-volunteer military to becoming a broken force as we ask soldiers to deploy on five seperate occasions...

Joe needs to know he's not going to be president, or even vice president, no matter how hard he tries...

Support our troops (to the last man).

FORD
11-30-2005, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh


Joe needs to know he's not going to be president, or even vice president, no matter how hard he tries...



The irony of that statement is that he IS the elected Vice President. But that was before he made any of his dumbass comments.

Warham
11-30-2005, 04:26 PM
I'm still waiting for somebody here to invalidate his optimistic observations.

Personal attacks against Lieberman won't work.

Nickdfresh
11-30-2005, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Warham
I'm still waiting for somebody here to invalidate his optimistic observations.

Personal attacks against Lieberman won't work.

Really? I'm still waiting for anybody TO validate any optimistic observations of IRAQ, rather than just repeating the same old spin...

Warham
11-30-2005, 05:00 PM
So who's lying then?

Lieberman or Murtha?

Murtha says NO progress is being made, and Lieberman says alot of military, economic, and political progress is being made. Who do you think is being more honest?

Nickdfresh
11-30-2005, 05:04 PM
Originally posted by Warham
So who's lying then?

Lieberman or Murtha?

Murtha says NO progress is being made, and Lieberman says alot of military, economic, and political progress is being made. Who do you think is being more honest?

Why choose either...

Why not choose two Republicans? Progress? There's also increasing attacks and and insurgency that just keeps on getting stronger...

Things are getting better? Really? Care to mention any specifics of how?

There are a lot of harsh critics of this that were actually in IRAQ.

And even the major supporters of the War like McCAIN say we need to redouble our efforts (which means enlarging the military.;))

No, there's just new spin and few specifics...

Warham
11-30-2005, 05:08 PM
Because somebody is lying. That's why I am choosing.

Either Murtha or Lieberman is using this as a cheap partisan political stunt, and I'm not buying.

twonabomber
11-30-2005, 05:17 PM
27 million people can't sack up and take care of 10,000 assholes?

Nickdfresh
11-30-2005, 05:21 PM
The fact is that if America began substantial withdrawls of troops, a lot of those "10,000 terrorists" (and it's probably a lot more than that), would quit since they have no more excuse of a foreign occupier to kill they're fellow citizens. Hell, they might even turn on whatever "al-Qaida of IRAQ" exists...

FORD
11-30-2005, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Hell, they might even turn on whatever "al-Qaida of IRAQ" exists...

How long would it take them to turn on a lap top which contains the fictional writings of one Hopalong Zarqawi anyway?

Guitar Shark
11-30-2005, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Warham
Because somebody is lying. That's why I am choosing.

Either Murtha or Lieberman is using this as a cheap partisan political stunt, and I'm not buying.

There you go again with your black and white blinders.

The truth is somewhere in the middle.

Warham
11-30-2005, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Nickdfresh
The fact is that if America began substantial withdrawls of troops, a lot of those "10,000 terrorists" (and it's probably a lot more than that), would quit since they have no more excuse of a foreign occupier to kill they're fellow citizens. Hell, they might even turn on whatever "al-Qaida of IRAQ" exists...

So basically you are saying they'll go back to the 9 to 5 jobs five days a week.

Do they get paid time off to blow up cars and themselves?

FORD
11-30-2005, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Warham
So basically you are saying they'll go back to the 9 to 5 jobs five days a week.

Do they get paid time off to blow up cars and themselves?

I'm not sure. What kind of holiday plan does Mossad and/or the CIA have for their MK-Ultra'd brainwashed patsies.

Suicide bombers my ass. FAUX is actually half-right by calling them "homicide bombers". The half they leave out is who actually is controlling the detonators.

Guitar Shark
11-30-2005, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Suicide bombers my ass. FAUX is actually half-right by calling them "homicide bombers". The half they leave out is who actually is controlling the detonators.

Oh I've got to hear this.

Who controls the detonators?

Cathedral
11-30-2005, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Oh I've got to hear this.

Who controls the detonators?

I'm with you, bro!

He starts out making sense and i bite, as usual, and then *WHAM*, he turns down the darkest street and i lose him, lol.

FORD
11-30-2005, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Oh I've got to hear this.

Who controls the detonators?

As I said, it's either Mossad, the CIA or both.

You gotta look at the timing. "Suicide bombings" in Israel began right about the time Sharon and the Likud party were looking for an excuse to bail out of the peace process.

And the bombings (and "insurgency") in Iraq began right when PNAC was looking for an excuse to continue the occupation of that country.

Just a little fucking convenient on both counts.

And eventually, they will try it here. The trial run (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,166160,00.html) has already been done in this country.

ELVIS
11-30-2005, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by FORD
I live in a state where the sun shines 8 weeks a year if we're lucky. What do you think?



That's not true...

Go to the other side of the mountains...

FORD
11-30-2005, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
That's not true...

Go to the other side of the mountains...

I'm well aware of that. But there's too many right wingers over there :(

ELVIS
11-30-2005, 06:11 PM
Originally posted by FORD
As I said, it's either Mossad, the CIA or both.



Dude!

Is there one thing in this world that you can think of, that's not a conspiracy ??

ELVIS
11-30-2005, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by FORD
I'm well aware of that. But there's too many right wingers over there :(

You might like them...;)

Warham
11-30-2005, 06:12 PM
Howard Dean's the only thing he can think of.

It's a conspiracy that anyone actually reads the guy's columns.

FORD
11-30-2005, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
You might like them...;)

No thanks. I've known too many of them. Anyone from Moses Lake or Colville, for example should be avoided at all costs.

Cathedral
11-30-2005, 07:26 PM
Doodoo Doodoo, Doodoo Doodoo, Doodoo Doodoo...Imagine a dimension, where nothing is as it seems, where poeple have powers claimed far beyond that of a fabled super hero. A time and a place not of sound mind, but of conspiracy, doubt, and tin foil hats.
There's a sign up ahead, next stop, The Ford Zone...

ELVIS
11-30-2005, 07:33 PM
That was cool...:D

FORD
11-30-2005, 07:41 PM
Here's a couple names for you to consider...

Sirhan Sirhan

John Hinkley

Two mind controlled individuals.

The first, set up to take the fall for a murder he couldn't have physically committed.

The second, decived by a family friend into believing a lesbian actress would date him if he killed a President who inconvenienced that family friend (who happenned to be a lifelong CIA operative and former director of the agency)

If these two scenarios are possible (and indeed they DID happen) then why is is so hard to accept that people could be brainwashed into wearing bombs, with or without their knowledge?

Warham
11-30-2005, 07:42 PM
I suppose Mark Chapman was brainwashed by the CIA to kill John Lennon too, right?

:rolleyes:

ELVIS
11-30-2005, 07:45 PM
He could have strapped on a bomb and taken out Yoko too...

That was uncalled for...:D

Cathedral
11-30-2005, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by FORD
Here's a couple names for you to consider...

Sirhan Sirhan

John Hinkley

Two mind controlled individuals.

The first, set up to take the fall for a murder he couldn't have physically committed.

The second, decived by a family friend into believing a lesbian actress would date him if he killed a President who inconvenienced that family friend (who happenned to be a lifelong CIA operative and former director of the agency)

If these two scenarios are possible (and indeed they DID happen) then why is is so hard to accept that people could be brainwashed into wearing bombs, with or without their knowledge?

Dude, when you do find an answer to that question, for the record i don't know, please notify the nearest Mental Health Board so we can get to the bottom of what actually makes a loonatic crazy and help them before they go strapping bombs to themselves or using killer cell phones in public.

Cathedral
11-30-2005, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
That was cool...:D

thankya, thankya very much.........now if you'll excuse me, there's something the matter with my lip.

ELVIS
11-30-2005, 07:50 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral
Dude, when you do find an answer to that question, for the record i don't know, please notify the nearest Mental Health Board so we can get to the bottom of what actually makes a loonatic crazy and help them before they go strapping bombs to themselves or using killer cell phones in public.

You're missing the point, Cat...

People don't become lunatics, It's all mind control...


Look into my eyes...

You're getting sleepy...

Very sleepy...


:elvis:

FORD
11-30-2005, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Warham
I suppose Mark Chapman was brainwashed by the CIA to kill John Lennon too, right?

:rolleyes:

The circumstances of Chapman and Hinkley are very similar. And they both had a copy of "Catcher In The Rye" on them when arrested, which is said to be a "trigger" somehow for those who are brainwashed through MK-Ultra.

It's no secret that the BCE weren't fans of John Lennon. Nixon had the FBI tail him for years, and they tried to throw him out of the country based on a British pot posession charge from the 60's. Since Lennon was coming out of seclusion and resuming his musical career in the fall of 1980, it's entirely possible that the BCE would have percieved him as a political threat.

Now here's another interesting link between Chapman and Hinkley.....

Chapman once served as a volunteer at World Vision refugee camps in Thailand. The President of World Vision at the time?

John Hinkley Sr.

World Vision is believed to be a CIA front organization, which would explain how Chapman could have been brainwashed under MK-Ultra.

Warham
11-30-2005, 07:55 PM
Yep, when you hear 'Just Like Starting Over', that's sure to make you think politics and the BCE.

ELVIS
11-30-2005, 07:57 PM
Oh brother...:rolleyes:

Cathedral
11-30-2005, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by FORD
The circumstances of Chapman and Hinkley are very similar. And they both had a copy of "Catcher In The Rye" on them when arrested, which is said to be a "trigger" somehow for those who are brainwashed through MK-Ultra.

It's no secret that the BCE weren't fans of John Lennon. Nixon had the FBI tail him for years, and they tried to throw him out of the country based on a British pot posession charge from the 60's. Since Lennon was coming out of seclusion and resuming his musical career in the fall of 1980, it's entirely possible that the BCE would have percieved him as a political threat.

Now here's another interesting link between Chapman and Hinkley.....

Chapman once served as a volunteer at World Vision refugee camps in Thailand. The President of World Vision at the time?

John Hinkley Sr.

World Vision is believed to be a CIA front organization, which would explain how Chapman could have been brainwashed under MK-Ultra.

Now these facts are confirmed, i can't argue this point...though i am a little apprehensive in taking it as far as you have.

I've seen Chapman and the boy was off his rocker from birth, sooo, there's my reasonable doubt.