Military chaplains told to shy from Jesus [Archive]

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BigBadBrian

12-21-2005, 11:16 AM

Military chaplains told to shy from Jesus
By Julia Duin
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
December 21, 2005

To pray -- or not to pray -- in Jesus' name is the question plaguing an increasing number of U.S. military chaplains, one of whom began a multiday hunger strike outside the White House yesterday.
"I am a Navy chaplain being fired because I pray in Jesus' name," said Navy Lt. Gordon Klingenschmitt, who will be holding 6 p.m. prayer vigils daily in Lafayette Park.
The hunger strike is intended to persuade President Bush to issue an executive order allowing military chaplains to pray according to their individual faith traditions. The American Center for Law and Justice has gathered 173,000 signatures on a petition seeking an executive order.
Seventy-three members of Congress have joined the request, saying in an Oct. 25 letter to the president, "In all branches of the military, it is becoming increasingly difficult for Christian chaplains to use the name of Jesus when praying."
About 80 percent of U.S. troops are Christian, the legislators wrote, adding that military "censorship" of chaplains' prayers disenfranchises "hundreds of thousands of Christian soldiers in the military who look to their chaplains for comfort, inspiration and support."
Official military policy allows any sort of prayer, but Lt. Klingenschmitt says that in reality, evangelical Protestant prayers are censored. He cites his training at the Navy Chaplains School in Newport, R.I., where "they have clipboards and evaluators who evaluate your prayers, and they praise you if you pray just to God," he said. "But if you pray in Jesus' name, they counsel you."
Muslim, Jewish and Roman Catholic chaplains are likewise told not to pray in the name of Allah, in Hebrew or in the name of the Trinity, he added.
But the Rev. Billy Baugham, executive director of the Greenville, S.C.-based International Conference of Evangelical Chaplain Endorsers, says restrictions on other religious expressions have "yet to be tested."
"No Islamic chaplain has been refused to pray in the name of Allah, as far as we know. Neither has a rabbi been rebuked for making references to Hanukkah, and no Catholic priest has been rebuked for referring to the Blessed Virgin Mary."
The Navy allows chaplains to pray in the name of Jesus Christ, Allah or any other deity during chapel services, spokeswoman Lt. Erin Bailey said.
At other public events, "Navy chaplains are encouraged to be sensitive to the needs of all those present," she said, "and may decline an invitation to pray if not able to do so for conscience reasons."
Lt. Klingenschmitt has not been formally punished, she added, and there are no plans to take him off active duty.

However, the lieutenant contends that he may lose his job next month and be evicted from military housing. He says he got in hot water during the summer of 2004 while aboard the USS Anzio for preaching an evangelistic sermon at the funeral of a Catholic sailor in a base chapel. The lieutenant said he was reprimanded by two senior chaplains and, in March, sent ashore to Norfolk.
Lt. Klingenschmitt also has fought at other times for the religious rights of non-Christians, having backed a Jewish sailor's bid to get kosher meals and sought to include a Muslim seaman in the rotation of sailors offering the ship's nightly closing prayer.
The lieutenant is not alone in fighting to pray to Jesus. The Navy is facing two lawsuits, filed in 1999 and 2000, by 50 Christian chaplains, saying the Navy discriminates against evangelical and Pentecostal clerics.
Mr. Baugham said the 350 chaplains he oversees are concerned about a new set of guidelines issued in August after complaints about Christian evangelism at the Air Force Academy in Colorado Springs. The Air Force guidelines allow "a brief, nonsectarian prayer" during military ceremonies "to add a heightened sense of seriousness or solemnity, not to advance specific religious beliefs."
"So, to what deity do you address your prayer to?" Mr. Baugham asked. "No one knows. And who gets to write the prayers? Once the government becomes the approving authority, the poor chaplain is forced to be an agent of the state."
Mr. Baugham said he had "just got a call from an Army chaplain in Iraq who says he'd be hammered if he used Jesus' name. Chaplains are scared to death. They must clear their prayers with their commanders, they can mention Jesus' name at chapel services, but not outside that context."

Link (http://www.washtimes.com/national/20051221-121224-6972r_page2.htm)

FORD

12-21-2005, 11:51 AM

Why would the Washington Times want the military to pray to Jesus Christ?

If I remember correctly, they believe in a different "messiah".....

http://www.rickross.com/images/moonie3.jpg

WACF

12-21-2005, 01:12 PM

Jackie Chan?

FORD

12-21-2005, 03:31 PM

Originally posted by WACF
Jackie Chan?

Don't they have Moonies in Canada yet?

The Rev. "messiah" Moon owns the Washingmoonie Times, and they have even less journalistic credibility than FAUX News.

And Moon is also a very close friend of a certain family of criminals......

http://www.ecosyn.us/adti/Moonies/Subversives_03.jpg

ELVIS

12-21-2005, 03:43 PM

Originally posted by FORD
If I remember correctly,

You don't...

Your liberal mind is beyond warped...;)

ELVIS

12-21-2005, 04:13 PM

Lt. Gordon Klingenschmitt is on Hannity right now...

ELVIS

12-21-2005, 04:14 PM

Hannity has a guest host today, by the way...

BigBadBrian

12-21-2005, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by FORD
Why would the Washington Times want the military to pray to Jesus Christ?

If I remember correctly, they believe in a different "messiah".....

That's one way to dodge the issue.

:gulp:

FORD

12-21-2005, 05:24 PM

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
That's one way to dodge the issue.

:gulp:

OK, let's deal with the issue then. Let's say you have a platoon in which 2/3 of the guys are professing Christians and then the remaiing third includes a couple of Jews, a Muslim, a Native American, a Hindu, and just in case Pinky stops by, an atheist.

Now it's not likely that the military is going to provide a seperate chaplain for each of the faiths represented. Furthermore, the purpose of the military is to produce a cohesive unit, correct? So in order to do that, they have to downplay individuality.

Now, most of the faiths listed above believe in One Creator. So if the chaplain spoke of "God" or "Creator" he wouldn't be excluding anyone except the atheist. But to include specific prayers to Jesus would exclude 1/3 of this unit. Not very good for building that "team spirit" thing.

If the chaplain speaks to an individual soldier about God and prays one on one with that soldier then maybe exceptions would be warranted, but as far as group prayers go, the chaplain shouldn't be exclusionary. The United States Armed forces are not a Christian instutution, and they sure as Hell don't exist to serve Jesus' purposes.

DrMaddVibe

12-21-2005, 05:30 PM

When I was in the military...we NEVER had a Chaplin lead ANY group in prayer.

If you wanted prayer...do it by yourself in private or go to a church.

ELVIS

12-21-2005, 05:33 PM

FORD, you're on the side of SATAN!

THIS BULLSHIT IS NOTHING MORE THAN ANOTHER BLATANT ATTACK ON CHRISTIANITY !!

DR CHIP

12-21-2005, 05:46 PM

Originally posted by ELVIS
FORD, you're on the side of SATAN!

THIS BULLSHIT IS NOTHING MORE THAN ANOTHER BLATANT ATTACK ON CHRISTIANITY !!

I think he posts as Satan, Elvis.....;)

Warham

12-21-2005, 05:46 PM

Liberals only care about the athiest in the end. If the athiest feels bad somehow by feeling left out, the libs will go to whatever lengths necessary to wipe out all prayer by any faith, starting with the biggest offender, Christianity.

DR CHIP

12-21-2005, 05:48 PM

ELVIS

12-21-2005, 05:52 PM

I like how the liberal media will say for instance, "The Holy City of Makkah" or "The Holy City of Karbala", but slam the Ten Commandments, and/or anything having to do with Christianity...

The end is in sight...

WACF

12-21-2005, 06:00 PM

Originally posted by FORD
Don't they have Moonies in Canada yet?

We most likely do...I did not recognize who that was and was being clever.

Being raised a christian I do find it offensive to have my beliefs take a back seat in public to what they once where.
I do see the point though...there are communities in Canada that a white christian would now be a minority...I would not want to be subject to another faith's beleif and be left out. It is just hard to adjust too.

DR CHIP

12-21-2005, 06:02 PM

Originally posted by ELVIS
I like how the liberal media will say for instance, "The Holy City of Makkah" or "The Holy City of Karbala", but slam the Ten Commandments, and/or anything having to do with Christianity...

The end is in sight...

There is no doubt that Christianity is a target....anyone doubting that is simply not being intellectually honest.....

ELVIS

12-21-2005, 06:03 PM

It's the target!

LoungeMachine

12-21-2005, 06:13 PM

Will the non-christian soldiers who die in battle go to heaven?

I was under the impression from reading posts in here that if you're not a Christian, it is impossible to go to heaven.

Is there an exemption for the military?

Warham

12-21-2005, 06:19 PM

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Will the non-christian soldiers who die in battle go to heaven?

Not for us to decide, but if you read the Bible, if makes a pretty convincing case that you have to take Christ as your savior to get there.

I was under the impression from reading posts in here that if you're not a Christian, it is impossible to go to heaven.

Is there an exemption for the military?

No

Unchainme

12-21-2005, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Will the non-christian soldiers who die in battle go to heaven?

I was under the impression from reading posts in here that if you're not a Christian, it is impossible to go to heaven.

Is there an exemption for the military?

unfortunately according to Christianity You do not got to heaven unless you have faith in the Saviour. Does not matter how many good acts a person preforms, Its is only through Jesus you can get to Heaven. Now With that being said That is from one point of view on religion. You have to imagine, People have no real proof that there is a God or Not, You have to have faith and thats it, no matter what religion you are in. I personally belive there is a God, I hope no one has a problem with it.

blueturk

12-21-2005, 06:47 PM

Warham

12-21-2005, 06:50 PM

The proof is in the pudding. Who's trying to wipe out Christianity from every facet of public life in the United States as we know it? Certainly not conservatives! Michael Newdow is a good example.

LoungeMachine

12-21-2005, 06:51 PM

Why?

Oooh ohh

I know, I know.....

Warham

12-21-2005, 06:52 PM

I'm not sure you do know.

blueturk

12-21-2005, 06:59 PM

Originally posted by Warham
The proof is in the pudding. Who's trying to wipe out Christianity from every facet of public life in the United States as we know it? Certainly not conservatives! Michael Newdow is a good example.

Michael Newdow does not represent me, anymore than than Pat Robertson represents you. Of course for all I know, maybe Robertson DOES represent you....

FORD

12-21-2005, 07:00 PM

Originally posted by Warham
The proof is in the pudding. Who's trying to wipe out Christianity from every facet of public life in the United States as we know it? Certainly not conservatives! Michael Newdow is a good example.

Michael Newdow isn't even a good example of atheism. The man is an idiot and a liar. Actually, he'd make a great neo-con.

FORD

12-21-2005, 07:04 PM

Originally posted by ELVIS
FORD, you're on the side of SATAN!

THIS BULLSHIT IS NOTHING MORE THAN ANOTHER BLATANT ATTACK ON CHRISTIANITY !!

Bullshit.

The US Military is NOT a Christian church. There are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Native Americans, Atheists, and God only knows what else serving their country. Why would you want to discriminate against them?

I think AssVibe actually has the right idea. No group or public prayers at all. Then a chaplain could act accordingly based on the faith of the individual.

Unchainme

12-21-2005, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by FORD
Michael Newdow isn't even a good example of atheism. The man is an idiot and a liar. Actually, he'd make a great neo-con.

FORD Just curious I don't mean this in a Negative way or anything like that, Are you an Atheist?

FORD

12-21-2005, 07:08 PM

Originally posted by ELVIS
I like how the liberal media will say for instance, "The Holy City of Makkah" or "The Holy City of Karbala", but slam the Ten Commandments, and/or anything having to do with Christianity...

The end is in sight...

Seen a picture of the "Holy City of Bethlehem" lately? It's surrounded by Ariel Sharon's tribute to the Berlin Wall.

Imagine that 2000 years ago...forget "no room at the inn", they probably would have been SHOT for being strangers in that town.

Unchainme

12-21-2005, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by FORD
Bullshit.

The US Military is NOT a Christian church. There are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Native Americans, Atheists, and God only knows what else serving their country. Why would you want to discriminate against them?

I think AssVibe actually has the right idea. No group or public prayers at all. Then a chaplain could act accordingly based on the faith of the individual.

Is There only One Chaplain? or is there Multiple ones to help with the Different Faiths?

jhale667

12-21-2005, 07:10 PM

Originally posted by Warham
Liberals only care about the athiest in the end. If the athiest feels bad somehow by feeling left out, the libs will go to whatever lengths necessary to wipe out all prayer by any faith, starting with the biggest offender, Christianity.

Not true. Why do Christians have NO problem trying to force their beliefs on everyone? Oh, right...it's their duty to 'save' us all....almost forgot. Christianity has tried to foist itself into every arena known to man. I went to Catholic school for 12 years, so I can speak with some authority on about being force-fed Christianity (yes, Catholics are christians, too...the article didn't sound so sure!). Why, I ask, should the non-christian soldiers have to put up with it? Why do religious conservatives all seem to have a problem with non-denominational worship? Tolerance issues, maybe?

Someone should re-post that video of the 'Trading Spouses' fatty zealot chick about now...;)

I was watching Bill Maher recently, and he asked a Christian guest "If you, and the Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc. all think YOU'RE right...doesn't that make at least ONE of you WRONG? And if ONE of you is wrong, aren't you ALL wrong?" She had no answer for that one....

blueturk

12-21-2005, 07:11 PM

Originally posted by ELVIS
FORD, you're on the side of SATAN!

THIS BULLSHIT IS NOTHING MORE THAN ANOTHER BLATANT ATTACK ON CHRISTIANITY !!

Strong words coming from someone who worships a dead movie star....

FORD

12-21-2005, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by Unchainme
FORD Just curious I don't mean this in a Negative way or anything like that, Are you an Atheist?

Not at all. I'm a deeply spiritual person and I try to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ.

But I have no use whatsoever for this rightwing bastardization of "Christianity" that began as a Reagan cult in the 80's and has now evolved into Chimp worship. This hate filled religion has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

blueturk

12-21-2005, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by FORD

But I have no use whatsoever for this rightwing bastardization of "Christianity" that began as a Reagan cult in the 80's and has now evolved into Chimp worship. This hate filled religion has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

Amen.

jhale667

12-21-2005, 07:19 PM

Originally posted by FORD
Not at all. I'm a deeply spiritual person and I try to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ.

But I have no use whatsoever for this rightwing bastardization of "Christianity" that began as a Reagan cult in the 80's and has now evolved into Chimp worship. This hate filled religion has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

Great post. The sad part is, MOST organized religion has nothing to do with true spirituality or faith...

My favorite nun quote, mentioned it in another front line forum last year...when I was 10, we played against the local Synagogue team. I asked, after hearing some disparaging remarks I didn't understand, why Catholics were 'supposed to hate Jews?' And she replied...NO SHIT..."It's not that we hate them, it's just that they're all going to hell!" Such compassion....:rolleyes:

Unchainme

12-21-2005, 07:26 PM

Originally posted by FORD
Not at all. I'm a deeply spiritual person and I try to live by the teachings of Jesus Christ.

But I have no use whatsoever for this rightwing bastardization of "Christianity" that began as a Reagan cult in the 80's and has now evolved into Chimp worship. This hate filled religion has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

Amen Again, You should see my area its truly awful. I mean there is one Church they are building next to a Golf Course and they Bought the Golf Course and its now a part of the Church. They are really not following the words of Jesus very closly. remember when he turned over all the tables in the temple, Its almost the same thing. Makes me sick.

Unchainme

12-21-2005, 07:27 PM

Originally posted by jhale667
Great post. The sad part is, MOST organized religion has nothing to do with true spirituality or faith...

My favorite nun quote, mentioned it in another front line forum last year...when I was 10, we played against the local Synagogue team. I asked, after hearing some disparaging remarks I didn't understand, why Catholics were 'supposed to hate Jews?' And she replied...NO SHIT..."It's not that we hate them, it's just that they're all going to hell!" Such compassion....:rolleyes:

And That Nun later went on to become Katydid :)

jhale667

12-21-2005, 07:48 PM

Originally posted by Unchainme
And That Nun later went on to become Katydid :)

LMAO :D :D :D I wondered what happened to the penguin....

Warham

12-21-2005, 08:02 PM

Originally posted by Unchainme
FORD Just curious I don't mean this in a Negative way or anything like that, Are you an Atheist?

The fact that you even have to ask him is curious.

Warham

12-21-2005, 08:05 PM

Originally posted by jhale667
Not true. Why do Christians have NO problem trying to force their beliefs on everyone? Oh, right...it's their duty to 'save' us all....almost forgot. Christianity has tried to foist itself into every arena known to man. I went to Catholic school for 12 years, so I can speak with some authority on about being force-fed Christianity (yes, Catholics are christians, too...the article didn't sound so sure!). Why, I ask, should the non-christian soldiers have to put up with it? Why do religious conservatives all seem to have a problem with non-denominational worship? Tolerance issues, maybe?

Someone should re-post that video of the 'Trading Spouses' fatty zealot chick about now...;)

I was watching Bill Maher recently, and he asked a Christian guest "If you, and the Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc. all think YOU'RE right...doesn't that make at least ONE of you WRONG? And if ONE of you is wrong, aren't you ALL wrong?" She had no answer for that one....

Uh, you didn't go to Catholic school because you were force-fed Christianity. It's most likely because your parents are Catholic and enrolled you there. Blame them for 'force-feeding' it to you, J. Just like Muslim kids are 'force-fed' Islam by their parents, etc, etc.

Warham

12-21-2005, 08:05 PM

Unchainme

12-21-2005, 08:08 PM

jhale667

12-21-2005, 08:15 PM

Originally posted by Warham
Uh, you didn't go to Catholic school because you were force-fed Christianity. It's most likely because your parents are Catholic and enrolled you there. Blame them for 'force-feeding' it to you, J. Just like Muslim kids are 'force-fed' Islam by their parents, etc, etc.

No, I went to Catholic school because academically it's still head and shoulders above WV public schooling (compare the literacy level of my posts to oh, say....Gaybrush and Tardo--so yeah, even I'M thankful for THAT ;) ). As for 'placing the blame', sure that's what Mom (and Dad to a far lesser extent) wanted. I just meant I've have LOTS of experience with intolerance, religious and ethnic. It's ALL stupid. It's always amazed me Christians have no problem with their beliefs being 'enforced', but they balk at the mere suggestion that other beliefs be included!

And again, sorry for calling you 'Warf' the other night in the muff thread...I was heavily medicated...
:rolleyes:

Nickdfresh

12-21-2005, 08:37 PM

Nickdfresh

12-21-2005, 08:41 PM

Wow, you Christians are such crybabies. Geez, how will this small segment of the population (80%) ever survive being crucified or thrown to the lions by the other hethen 20%?

Nickdfresh

12-21-2005, 08:43 PM

Or what about when the shoe is on the other foot when evagelical douche bags are trying to force extremist Christianity on Air Force Cadets?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/05/12/AR2005051201740_pf.html

Air Force Removes Chaplain From Post
Officer Decried Evangelicals' Influence

By T.R. Reid
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, May 13, 2005; A04

DENVER, May 12 -- An Air Force chaplain who complained that evangelical Christians were trying to "subvert the system" by winning converts among cadets at the Air Force Academy was removed from administrative duties last week, just as the Pentagon began an in-depth study of alleged religious intolerance among cadets and commanders at the school.

"They fired me," said Capt. MeLinda Morton, a Lutheran minister who was removed as executive officer of the chaplain unit on May 4. "They said I should be angry about these outside groups who reported on the strident evangelicalism at the academy. The problem is, I agreed with those reports."

"The choice of a new executive officer was a standard transition," said Lt. Col. Laurent Fox, an academy spokesman. "The situation is, both the commanding officer [of the chaplain unit] and the executive officer are scheduled to leave this post in a couple of months. It was decided to replace the executive officer now for reasons of continuity."

Amid a rising chorus of complaints about preferential treatment for evangelical Christians -- and command pressure on non-evangelicals -- among the 4,000 cadets, a Pentagon task force is visiting the Colorado Springs campus this week to study the religious atmosphere and propose possible remedial steps.

Morton, whose removal as executive officer was first reported in USA Today, said she has not been asked to brief the task force.

Surveys of present and former cadets have shown that some students said they felt a heavy and sometimes offensive emphasis on evangelical Christianity, with praise for cadets who pronounce their "born-again" status and insults aimed at Jews, Roman Catholics and non-evangelical cadets.

One staff chaplain reportedly told newly arrived freshmen last summer that anyone not born again "will burn in the fires of hell."

Such slurs have been heard for decades on the campus, according to Mikey Weinstein of Albuquerque, a 1977 academy graduate who said he has repeatedly complained to the Air Force brass about the "religious pressure" on cadets. "This is not Christian versus Jew," Weinstein said. "This is the evangelical Christians against everybody else."

The Air Force's new attention to the issue stems from an earlier scandal at the school in which female cadets said commanding officers ignored or played down numerous cases of sexual assault by male students.

As part of its response to the sexual assault charges, the academy asked a team from Yale Divinity School to visit the campus during the summer training for incoming freshmen.

"We were asked to study the quality of cadet-centered pastoral care," said Yale Prof. Kristen Leslie. "What we found was this very strong evangelical Christian voice just dominating. We thought that just didn't make sense in light of their mission, which was to protect and train cadets, not to win religious converts."

Morton, who was executive officer of the squadron of 16 chaplains at the academy, said she shared the concerns expressed by the study group from Yale.

"The evangelicals want to subvert the system," Morton said. "They have a very clear social and political agenda. The evangelical tone is pervasive at the academy, and it's aimed at converting these young people who are under intense pressure anyway."

When a two-page summary of the "Yale Report" became public this spring, Morton said, the academy's chief chaplain, Col. Michael Whittington, responded angrily. But Morton said she agreed with the criticism in the report.

Morton said she has also criticized the academy's RSVP program, or Respecting the Spiritual Values of All People, a training unit designed to teach academy personnel to tolerate all religious views. "I just think RSVP is a weak program," she said.

Whittington was not available for a comment Thursday; academy officials said he was busy all day with the Pentagon task force.

After several "reasonably tense" days among the academy chaplains, Morton said, she received an e-mail on May 4 from Whittington. It said a new executive officer would be named, effective immediately.

Fox, the academy spokesman, said this change was made because Whittington is retiring from the Air Force in June and Morton is due for a transfer in July to Okinawa. But Morton said the normal procedure would be to keep her in the number two post until she departs, so that she could help the unit's new commanding officer settle in.

Morton said the cadet wing at the Air Force Academy is about 90 percent Christian. She said that group is roughly one-third Catholic, one-third mainstream Protestant and one-third evangelical. But the evangelicals have a much bigger voice among the chaplains, she said.

"The predominance of evangelical Christians reflects the chaplain corps of the Air Force overall," Morton said. "The major mainstream Protestant divinity schools are no longer sending many graduates into the armed forces. And so the concentration of evangelicals among chaplains is strong through the whole service."

Morton, 48, said that, having criticized the religious atmosphere at the academy, "I may be toast" in terms of an Air Force career. She said her next duty station is said to be a pleasant spot. "But serving in Okinawa as the most hated chaplain in the Air Force might not be so great."

© 2005 The Washington Post Company

FORD

12-21-2005, 08:44 PM

Originally posted by Warham
FORD, what do you think of the Old Testament?

It's called the "Old" Testament for a reason. There's history there. Prophecy, much of it fulfilled by Christ, and others yet to come Psalms and Proverbs are some great writing. Some of the stories hold up allegorically if not literally in the 21st century.

I don't take every word of the OT literally, but how can you? As I have pointed out previously, bats are not birds and not all insects have 4 legs, so you simply cannot call the OT the literal word of God, unless you're calling God a moron who doesn't even know His own creation.

The thing is, it doesn't really matter. Who cares if God created the world in 6 days, 6 weeks, or 6 million years? What does that really change, other than some silly story about a talking snake, if you don't accept it literally.

Of course the Garden of Eden did happen to have a physical location described in Genesis, and it happenned to be near the intersection of the Tigris and Euphrates rivers.

And we all know where that is, don't we? ;)

It's also a historical fact that beer was first created in ancient Iraq. And that's something everyone can believe in :gulp:

LoungeMachine

12-21-2005, 08:45 PM

I dislike ANY segment of the world's population that tells me that if I don't believe EXACTLY as they do, I'm doomed to hell for all eternity regardless of how righteous a life I lead......

FUCK THEM ALL

BigBadBrian

12-21-2005, 10:42 PM

Originally posted by jhale667
Great post. The sad part is, MOST organized religion has nothing to do with true spirituality or faith...

Yeah....I bet you understand it all. We're listening. :rolleyes:

BigBadBrian

12-21-2005, 10:43 PM

Originally posted by jhale667
Why, I ask, should the non-christian soldiers have to put up with it?

They don't.

Divine services, as they are called in the military, are strictly voluntary.

:gulp:

BigBadBrian

12-21-2005, 10:46 PM

Originally posted by FORD
Bullshit.

The US Military is NOT a Christian church. There are Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Native Americans, Atheists, and God only knows what else serving their country. Why would you want to discriminate against them?

I think AssVibe actually has the right idea. No group or public prayers at all. Then a chaplain could act accordingly based on the faith of the individual.

Wrongo, FORDO.

The military MUST cater to the spiritual needs of its people.

It has priests, pastors, and overseers of ALL faiths and conducts services in ALL religions.

What you are suggesting is the squashing of a right. I'm not surprised, however.

:gulp:

jhale667

12-21-2005, 10:51 PM

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
They don't.

Divine services, as they are called in the military, are strictly voluntary.

:gulp:

OK. But isn't the point they don't have enough pastors/chaplains/whatever to cover ALL religions in an increasingly diverse military, thus the push for non-denominational services? Seems only fair.

BigBadBrian

12-21-2005, 10:53 PM

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I dislike ANY segment of the world's population that tells me that if I don't believe EXACTLY as they do, I'm doomed to hell for all eternity regardless of how righteous a life I lead......

FUCK THEM ALL

Hey, don't believe....

Nobody's twisting your arm.

We didn't make the rules.

HE did. ;)

:gulp:

BTW - Merry Christmas!

jhale667

12-21-2005, 10:56 PM

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yeah....I bet you understand it all. We're listening. :rolleyes:

No, wouldn't claim that...but I've been to Catholic (obviously), Baptist, Protestant, and Jewish ceremonies. I listened to my ex-fiance's KKK dad try to twist scripture to suit his racist leanings...Would you not agree religion has been used a justification for some of the most heinous act in history? Would you not agree the nun I was talking about was a disgrace to the habit?

jhale667

12-21-2005, 11:00 PM

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Hey, don't believe....

Nobody's twisting your arm.

We didn't make the rules.

HE did. ;)

:gulp:

BTW - Merry Christmas!

Which 'HE'? ;) Jesus? Buddah? Yahweh? Krishna? Bob Schuler? L. Ron Hubbard?

I keed! Merry Christmas, fuckers.

Warham

12-21-2005, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by jhale667
No, wouldn't claim that...but I've been to Catholic (obviously), Baptist, Protestant, and Jewish ceremonies. I listened to my ex-fiance's KKK dad try to twist scripture to suit his racist leanings...Would you not agree religion has been used a justification for some of the most heinous act in history? Would you not agree the nun I was talking about was a disgrace to the habit?

Athiesm can be used to justify plenty of heinous acts as well.

jhale667

12-22-2005, 12:58 AM

Originally posted by Warham
Athiesm can be used to justify plenty of heinous acts as well.

True. But a nut can use anything to justify their means if they're willing to stretch reality far enough. Nathan Gale, anyone? ;)

I think if we crunched the numbers, more wacky shit's been done supposedly in God's name than anything else. Doesn't discount religion entirely, just enough to make a rational person question motivation...

ELVIS

12-22-2005, 01:23 AM

Originally posted by FORD
This hate filled religion has nothing to do with Jesus Christ.

What hate filled religion ??

FORD

12-22-2005, 01:47 AM

Originally posted by ELVIS
What hate filled religion ??

The bozos who believe God told a Chimp to invade the entire Middle East and who vote to trash the Constitution over gay marriages.

FORD

12-22-2005, 02:00 AM

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Wrongo, FORDO.

The military MUST cater to the spiritual needs of its people.

It has priests, pastors, and overseers of ALL faiths and conducts services in ALL religions.

What you are suggesting is the squashing of a right. I'm not surprised, however.

:gulp:

No, what I'm suggesting is that if you have a chaplain that is praying in a mixed congregation then the only fair thing to do is to make the prayer as inclusive as possible. It doesn't infringe on anybody's rights if a chaplain is praying to "God" or "The Creator" or "Our Father", as people of various religions can visualize their version of God to themselves at that point, whether they want to see Jesus, or Allah, or Wakan Tanka, or a Big Question Mark for the agnostics.

When the first space shuttle blew up, I remember the prayers at the televised memorial service being said in exactly that way. In fact if I remember correctly, the language used there was "Oh Great Father Who Is Known By Many Names" or words to that effect. Probably used because at least one of those astronauts was a devout Buddhist, from my recollection

Hey, that was almost 20 years ago, so I'm doing pretty good remembering even that much of it. But even Reagan's words on the occasion were very non-denominational - something about "slipping the surley bonds of earth and touching the face of God", wasn't it?

ELVIS

12-22-2005, 02:10 AM

Originally posted by FORD
The bozos who believe God told a Chimp to invade the entire Middle East and who vote to trash the Constitution over gay marriages.

What bozos ??

Who are you talking about ??

Guitar Shark

12-22-2005, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by ELVIS
What bozos ??

Who are you talking about ??

Those 40% or so who think Bush is doing a good job, mainly... ;)

LoungeMachine

12-22-2005, 02:30 AM

Originally posted by ELVIS
What bozos ??

Who are you talking about ??

I hate it when you play dumb.....

you are playing, right? :(

ELVIS

12-22-2005, 02:37 AM

Yeah, but I want FORD to answer...

FORD

12-22-2005, 02:38 AM

I already did, Bozo.

Cathedral

12-22-2005, 06:34 AM

Originally posted by jhale667
Which 'HE'? ;) Jesus? Buddah? Yahweh? Krishna? Bob Schuler? L. Ron Hubbard?

I keed! Merry Christmas, fuckers.

Whichever suits you, brother... ;)

Happy Holiday!

Warham

12-22-2005, 06:39 AM

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Those 40% or so who think Bush is doing a good job, mainly... ;)

Actually, that's 47%....and rising.

FORD

12-22-2005, 08:46 AM

Only if you believe FAUX News.

Ally_Kat

12-22-2005, 04:56 PM

Originally posted by Unchainme
Warham not eveybody who was or is enrolled in Catholic School is Catholic, A lot of people send their kids to go there because its a Private Education.

True and Catholic Schools won't discrimate a student's acceptance based on their religion, but upon registration your parents were made well aware that you were going to be taught Catholic theolog.y as it is a requirement of their institution, and agreed with it. You don't like it, take it up with your parents, not the institution. Besides, Catholic Elementary theology doesn't shove anything down anyone's throat. It's taught like any other subject. You can easily memorize for the test and forget it before you get home. Now high school theology is where it starts to get interesting.

Ally_Kat

12-22-2005, 04:58 PM

Ally_Kat

12-22-2005, 05:01 PM

Originally posted by jhale667
OK. But isn't the point they don't have enough pastors/chaplains/whatever to cover ALL religions in an increasingly diverse military, thus the push for non-denominational services? Seems only fair.

If a huge group is being addressed, sure. But I still say they should be allowed to hold their own services where members of that religion meet, no?

jhale667

12-22-2005, 05:15 PM

Originally posted by Ally_Kat
If a huge group is being addressed, sure. But I still say they should be allowed to hold their own services where members of that religion meet, no?

Well, sure...but I don't think that was the point. From the article it seems the more zealous Christians were angry they couldn't force the Jesus rhetoric on the huge groups, yes? I doubt in war time they would be able to do all the individual ceremonies, don't you think? :confused:

Ally_Kat

12-22-2005, 05:21 PM

Originally posted by jhale667
Well, sure...but I don't think that was the point. From the article it seems the more zealous Christians were angry they couldn't force the Jesus rhetoric on the huge groups, yes? I doubt in war time they would be able to do all the individual ceremonies, don't you think? :confused:

yeah, true, but for many religions a service doesn't count as worship unless it addresses their specific diety and beliefs. That's what so sticky about this. You want to give everyone that right and not leave someone out. The only thing I can think of is the hwole group thing and maybe having a line each in the prayer addressing that specific name/savior/whathaveyou.

jhale667

12-22-2005, 05:46 PM

Yeah, I can hear it now..."in the name of the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, the Earth Goddesss, Buddah, Krishna, Vishnu, that Hubbard guy....did I forget anyone?" ;)

kentuckyklira

12-22-2005, 05:49 PM

Originally posted by ELVIS
FORD, you're on the side of SATAN!

THIS BULLSHIT IS NOTHING MORE THAN ANOTHER BLATANT ATTACK ON CHRISTIANITY !!

Nitro Express

02-25-2006, 04:58 AM

Chances are very good a person will claim whatever religion they were raised in. Religion in itself is a belief that it's doctrine is true. If the religion has been around long enough and has grown big enough, then you have different branches that differ on the deffinition of that percieved truth. You are always going to run into a "We are right and you are wrong" in most organized religions.

Religion is also a way of binding a group of people and sometimes people stay in a religion because it's good for business or it's easier to live the charade than to upset the family.

I know a Pakastahni girl who was baptised into a Christian faith and recieved death threats and was disowned by her family for doing so.

I know a Mormon who drinks alcohol but is active in his faith. He doesn't believe in the doctrine but his wife does and he works for his father in law. He lives a double life in many cases but he told me it's easier to be a hypocrite than to kick the anthill and cause a stir.

I know a Jew who loves to eat bacon and ham and his excuse is it comes from a circumsized pig.

I know lots of Catholics who have gotten divorces and use contraception. They will defend their religion and praise the pope, but they only seem to listen to the things they want to hear from the pope and ignore the things they don't want to live.

I don't care who you are. We are all born into unique cultures and religiouse organizations. The world just isn't "We can hold hands and get along".

bueno bob

02-25-2006, 09:42 AM

Originally posted by Nitro Express
The world just isn't "We can hold hands and get along".

I wanna hold your hand.

:)

FORD

02-25-2006, 01:55 PM

Originally posted by Nitro Express

I know a Jew who loves to eat bacon and ham and his excuse is it comes from a circumsized pig.

And how exactly in the Hell does he know that? :confused:

DrMaddVibe

02-25-2006, 02:28 PM

Originally posted by FORD
And how exactly in the Hell does he know that? :confused:

Because he watched Spammy slice off a pound from bassplayer's backside!:D

Va Beach VH Fan

02-25-2006, 05:20 PM

Originally posted by FORD
OK, let's deal with the issue then. Let's say you have a platoon in which 2/3 of the guys are professing Christians and then the remaiing third includes a couple of Jews, a Muslim, a Native American, a Hindu, and just in case Pinky stops by, an atheist.

Now it's not likely that the military is going to provide a seperate chaplain for each of the faiths represented. Furthermore, the purpose of the military is to produce a cohesive unit, correct? So in order to do that, they have to downplay individuality.

That's basically a true statement in the military point of view, they pretty much have to be multi-demoninational...

And that's not just nowadays in today's society, watch any of the numerous documentaries on Vietnam, it's been that way for a long time...

BTW, I think I may know that LT, but I'm not sure.... Being retired for 2 1/2 years now is starting to cloud my military memories... ;)