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DR CHIP
12-21-2005, 01:33 PM
President had legal authority to OK taps

By John Schmidt
Published December 21, 2005


President Bush's post- Sept. 11, 2001, authorization to the National Security Agency to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails is consistent with court decisions and with the positions of the Justice Department under prior presidents.

The president authorized the NSA program in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks on America. An identifiable group, Al Qaeda, was responsible and believed to be planning future attacks in the United States. Electronic surveillance of communications to or from those who might plausibly be members of or in contact with Al Qaeda was probably the only means of obtaining information about what its members were planning next. No one except the president and the few officials with access to the NSA program can know how valuable such surveillance has been in protecting the nation.

In the Supreme Court's 1972 Keith decision holding that the president does not have inherent authority to order wiretapping without warrants to combat domestic threats, the court said explicitly that it was not questioning the president's authority to take such action in response to threats from abroad.

Four federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant.

In the most recent judicial statement on the issue, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, composed of three federal appellate court judges, said in 2002 that "All the ... courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence ... We take for granted that the president does have that authority."

The passage of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in 1978 did not alter the constitutional situation. That law created the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that can authorize surveillance directed at an "agent of a foreign power," which includes a foreign terrorist group. Thus, Congress put its weight behind the constitutionality of such surveillance in compliance with the law's procedures.

But as the 2002 Court of Review noted, if the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches, "FISA could not encroach on the president's constitutional power."

Every president since FISA's passage has asserted that he retained inherent power to go beyond the act's terms. Under President Clinton, deputy Atty. Gen. Jamie Gorelick testified that "the Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes."

FISA contains a provision making it illegal to "engage in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute." The term "electronic surveillance" is defined to exclude interception outside the U.S., as done by the NSA, unless there is interception of a communication "sent by or intended to be received by a particular, known United States person" (a U.S. citizen or permanent resident) and the communication is intercepted by "intentionally targeting that United States person." The cryptic descriptions of the NSA program leave unclear whether it involves targeting of identified U.S. citizens. If the surveillance is based upon other kinds of evidence, it would fall outside what a FISA court could authorize and also outside the act's prohibition on electronic surveillance.

The administration has offered the further defense that FISA's reference to surveillance "authorized by statute" is satisfied by congressional passage of the post-Sept. 11 resolution giving the president authority to "use all necessary and appropriate force" to prevent those responsible for Sept. 11 from carrying out further attacks. The administration argues that obtaining intelligence is a necessary and expected component of any military or other use of force to prevent enemy action.

But even if the NSA activity is "electronic surveillance" and the Sept. 11 resolution is not "statutory authorization" within the meaning of FISA, the act still cannot, in the words of the 2002 Court of Review decision, "encroach upon the president's constitutional power."

FISA does not anticipate a post-Sept. 11 situation. What was needed after Sept. 11, according to the president, was surveillance beyond what could be authorized under that kind of individualized case-by-case judgment. It is hard to imagine the Supreme Court second-guessing that presidential judgment.

Should we be afraid of this inherent presidential power? Of course. If surveillance is used only for the purpose of preventing another Sept. 11 type of attack or a similar threat, the harm of interfering with the privacy of people in this country is minimal and the benefit is immense. The danger is that surveillance will not be used solely for that narrow and extraordinary purpose.

But we cannot eliminate the need for extraordinary action in the kind of unforeseen circumstances presented by Sept.11. I do not believe the Constitution allows Congress to take away from the president the inherent authority to act in response to a foreign attack. That inherent power is reason to be careful about who we elect as president, but it is authority we have needed in the past and, in the light of history, could well need again.

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John Schmidt served under President Clinton from 1994 to 1997 as the associate attorney general of the United States. He is now a partner in the Chicago-based law firm of Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/opinion/chi-0512210142dec21,0,3553632.story?coll=chi-newsopinioncommentary-hed

Hardrock69
12-21-2005, 04:17 PM
That is fucking irrelevant.

Wiretaps were placed on calls WITHIN the United States.

That is ILLEGAL..

BigBadBrian
12-21-2005, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by Hardrock69
That is fucking irrelevant.

Wiretaps were placed on calls WITHIN the United States.

That is ILLEGAL..

No....they are not.

READ the article again. Try to comprehend it this time, huh? ;)

Hardrock69
12-21-2005, 04:54 PM
I comprehend clearly.

You, (as usual) are living in Egypt, in a State of Denial.

Eavesdropping on communications between two people who are both inside the United States is prohibited under Chimpy's order allowing some domestic surveillance.

Hardrock69
12-21-2005, 05:01 PM
So it appears that somebody fucked up when writing Chimpy's executive order, and then the NSA or whomever decided not to follow the letter of the order, and here we are.

Illegal Wiretaps resulted from a Presidential Directive.

Chimpy is to blame.

Why?

Because he is President.
Because he issued the Executive Order.

Because he is brain-dead munky.

:rolleyes:

DrMaddVibe
12-21-2005, 05:23 PM
President had legal authority to OK taps

By John Schmidt
Published December 21, 2005

President Bush's post- Sept. 11, 2001, authorization to the National Security Agency to carry out electronic surveillance into private phone calls and e-mails is consistent with court decisions and with the positions of the Justice Department under prior presidents.

The president authorized the NSA program in response to the 9/11 terrorist attacks on America. An identifiable group, Al Qaeda, was responsible and believed to be planning future attacks in the United States. Electronic surveillance of communications to or from those who might plausibly be members of or in contact with Al Qaeda was probably the only means of obtaining information about what its members were planning next. No one except the president and the few officials with access to the NSA program can know how valuable such surveillance has been in protecting the nation.

In the Supreme Court's 1972 Keith decision holding that the president does not have inherent authority to order wiretapping without warrants to combat domestic threats, the court said explicitly that it was not questioning the president's authority to take such action in response to threats from abroad.

Four federal courts of appeal subsequently faced the issue squarely and held that the president has inherent authority to authorize wiretapping for foreign intelligence purposes without judicial warrant.

In the most recent judicial statement on the issue, the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, composed of three federal appellate court judges, said in 2002 that "All the ... courts to have decided the issue held that the president did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence ... We take for granted that the president does have that authority."

The passage of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act in 1978 did not alter the constitutional situation. That law created the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court that can authorize surveillance directed at an "agent of a foreign power," which includes a foreign terrorist group. Thus, Congress put its weight behind the constitutionality of such surveillance in compliance with the law's procedures.

But as the 2002 Court of Review noted, if the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches, "FISA could not encroach on the president's constitutional power."

Every president since FISA's passage has asserted that he retained inherent power to go beyond the act's terms. Under President Clinton, deputy Atty. Gen. Jamie Gorelick testified that "the Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes."

FISA contains a provision making it illegal to "engage in electronic surveillance under color of law except as authorized by statute." The term "electronic surveillance" is defined to exclude interception outside the U.S., as done by the NSA, unless there is interception of a communication "sent by or intended to be received by a particular, known United States person" (a U.S. citizen or permanent resident) and the communication is intercepted by "intentionally targeting that United States person." The cryptic descriptions of the NSA program leave unclear whether it involves targeting of identified U.S. citizens. If the surveillance is based upon other kinds of evidence, it would fall outside what a FISA court could authorize and also outside the act's prohibition on electronic surveillance.

The administration has offered the further defense that FISA's reference to surveillance "authorized by statute" is satisfied by congressional passage of the post-Sept. 11 resolution giving the president authority to "use all necessary and appropriate force" to prevent those responsible for Sept. 11 from carrying out further attacks. The administration argues that obtaining intelligence is a necessary and expected component of any military or other use of force to prevent enemy action.

But even if the NSA activity is "electronic surveillance" and the Sept. 11 resolution is not "statutory authorization" within the meaning of FISA, the act still cannot, in the words of the 2002 Court of Review decision, "encroach upon the president's constitutional power."

FISA does not anticipate a post-Sept. 11 situation. What was needed after Sept. 11, according to the president, was surveillance beyond what could be authorized under that kind of individualized case-by-case judgment. It is hard to imagine the Supreme Court second-guessing that presidential judgment.

Should we be afraid of this inherent presidential power? Of course. If surveillance is used only for the purpose of preventing another Sept. 11 type of attack or a similar threat, the harm of interfering with the privacy of people in this country is minimal and the benefit is immense. The danger is that surveillance will not be used solely for that narrow and extraordinary purpose.

But we cannot eliminate the need for extraordinary action in the kind of unforeseen circumstances presented by Sept.11. I do not believe the Constitution allows Congress to take away from the president the inherent authority to act in response to a foreign attack. That inherent power is reason to be careful about who we elect as president, but it is authority we have needed in the past and, in the light of history, could well need again.

----------

John Schmidt served under President Clinton from 1994 to 1997 as the associate attorney general of the United States. He is now a partner in the Chicago-based law firm of Mayer, Brown, Rowe & Maw.

DR CHIP
12-21-2005, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Hardrock69
I comprehend clearly.

You, (as usual) are living in Egypt, in a State of Denial.

Eavesdropping on communications between two people who are both inside the United States is prohibited under Chimpy's order allowing some domestic surveillance.

Hard Rock, you don't get it....

Article I, Section 8 of the Constitution states that Congress has power to declare war and on September 14th, 2001, Congress passed a joint resolution which states that "The president is authorized to use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines, planned, authorized, committed or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11th, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States."

You want a lay persons understanding of this: he can do WHATEVER he feels necessary, period. That includes tapping phones, invading houses, or whatever HE feels needs to be done. It says NOTHING about him needing to have a court behind him for ANYTHING.

The point of whether or not he SHOULD have the power is another argument for another day, but the fact that he does is without question.

Bush will win this ALL day long....sorry.

Hardrock69
12-21-2005, 11:37 PM
No. Because I predicted several years ago (as did many others) that the Patriot Act had to have limits.

I think it should be allowed to run out.

Then When Concgress convenes in 2006, they nee dto write an update piece of legislation that reflects the needs and desires of Americans in 2005.

Chimpy is NOT KING.

No matter how he wishes it to be.

Matt White
12-21-2005, 11:51 PM
When did we declare War?!?!:confused:

DR CHIP
12-22-2005, 08:49 AM
Originally posted by Hardrock69
No. Because I predicted several years ago (as did many others) that the Patriot Act had to have limits.

I think it should be allowed to run out.

Then When Concgress convenes in 2006, they nee dto write an update piece of legislation that reflects the needs and desires of Americans in 2005.

Chimpy is NOT KING.

No matter how he wishes it to be.

Hard Rock, on this point we have some agreement!

The real question is not does Bush have the power to do what he is doing, because he does with the Sept. 14 resolution. The real question is should he have the power?

What pisses me off is that the same officials that gave him a blank check are now trying to act as if he is breaking the law. He isn't. What needs to happen is Congress and the President need to re-do the Patriot Act and clarify some of these far reaching powers they gave the President.

DrMaddVibe
12-22-2005, 09:23 AM
Instead they gave a 6 month extension...HA!

Hardrock69
12-22-2005, 09:57 AM
I knew this would happen.

There was much press and hoopla when the 9/14 resolution was passed, with many in Concgress and elsewhere expressing grave concerns that they were giving Chimpy too much control over his sandbox.


Doesn't Congress these days seem like some kind of chicken coop?

When someone plays Chik-en Noodul and cries "The Sky Is Falling" instantly the Coop gets in an uproar and feathers start flying, and in some cases a chicken or two winds up missing, or firghtened to death or some such nonsense.

In the meantime, the American Public has to suffer while the Coop tries to mandate policy that balances our needs for National Security with our needs for basic human rights.

It is a crazy and imperfect world, but it is the only one we have for the time being.

:cool:

Hardrock69
12-22-2005, 09:59 AM
Here's what Clinton signed:

Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) <50 U.S.C. 1822(a)> of the Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.

You don't have to be a lawyer to understand that Clinton allowed warrantless searches if and only if the AG followed section 302(a)(1). What does section 1822(a) require?


the "physical search is solely directed at premises, information, material, or property used exclusively by, or under the open and exclusive control of, a foreign power or powers." Translation: You can't search American citizens.

and there is "no substantial likelihood that the physical search will involve the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person." Translation: You can't search American citizens.

Moreover, Clinton's warrant waiver consistent with FISA refers only to physical searches. "Physical searches," as defined by 1821(5), exclude electronic surveillance.



Notice also that the AG has to make the certifications necessary to allow physical searches. Chimpy apparently sidestepped that requirement, meaning he was OUTSIDE the law.

bueno bob
12-22-2005, 11:21 AM
God damnit, if I find out GW has been jacking off to my phone sex, I'm going to be FUCKING ANGRY... :mad:

Hardrock69
12-22-2005, 12:00 PM
Why do you think he has been ordering wiretaps?

:D

bueno bob
12-22-2005, 12:18 PM
What a rascal!

Hardrock69
12-22-2005, 01:09 PM
He can tap? Like this????

Big Train
12-22-2005, 01:23 PM
I wonder why this is news at all? What do you think the fucking NSA does? The ONLY thing is does it covert and "illegal" things like this in the name of getting things done.

This is news because someone made it news. I am sure every past president has done this, but someone who doesn't like Bush put this out there. It's cool, whatever, but I don't think any of this should be a shock to people.

Warham
12-22-2005, 03:07 PM
FDR, the liberals' hero before Clinton came along, was the first president to authorize wire-taps without a warrant.

Hardrock69
12-22-2005, 03:37 PM
FDR was the liberal's hero?

How so?

He knew about Pearl Harbor before it happened, but never did anything to stop it.

I don't think he is anybody's hero.

Warham
12-22-2005, 03:39 PM
He started up the welfare state, including bringing about Social Security.

One of the bastions of liberalism is entitlements, or handouts from the government.

Hardrock69
12-22-2005, 03:45 PM
And this concerns Chimpy and his wiretap problem how?

Warham
12-22-2005, 03:57 PM
You got off the subject, not me.

Let's get back to what I posted originally, and that is that FDR was the first president to authorize wire-tapping.

Ya know, I think you give yourself too much credit sometimes for being an intellectual when you can't even stay on track for more than three posts. Why don't you go back and read the last three posts and see what I'm talking about.