Rebutting Darwinists

[BigBadBrian]

Rebutting Darwinists

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: April 15, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2006 WorldNetDaily.com


I suggested here last week that the established authorities of every age act consistently. They become vigilantly militant against non-conforming dissidents who challenge their assumptions.

Thus when the dissident Galileo challenged the assumptions of the 17th century papacy, it shut him up. Now when the advocates of "intelligent design" challenge the scientific establishment's assumptions about "natural selection," it moves aggressively to shut them up. So the I.D. people have this in common with Galileo.

I received a dozen letters on this, three in mild agreement, the rest in scorn and outrage. This calls for a response.

Where, one reader demanded, did I get the information that 10 percent of scientists accept intelligent design? I got it from a National Post (newspaper) article published two years ago, which said that 90 percent of the members of the National Academy of Science "consider themselves atheists." Since if you're not an atheist, you allow for the possibility of a Mind or Intelligence behind nature, this puts 10 percent in the I.D. camp.


I could have gone further. A survey last year by Rice University, financed by the Templeton Foundation, found that about two-thirds of scientists believed in God. A poll published by Gallup in 1997 asked: Do you believe that "man has developed over millions of years from less advanced forms of life, but God guided this process, including man's creation?" – essentially the I.D. position. Just under 40 percent of scientists said yes. So perhaps my 10 percent was far too low.

Two readers called my attention to a discovery last week on an Arctic island of something which may be the fossil remains of the mysteriously missing "transitional species." Or then maybe it isn't transitional. Maybe it's a hitherto undetected species on its own.

But the very exuberance with which such a discovery is announced argues the I.D. case. If Darwin was right, and the change from one species to another through natural selection occurred constantly in millions of instances over millions of years, then the fossil record should be teaming with transitional species. It isn't. That's why even one possibility, after many years of searching, becomes front-page news.

Another letter complains that I.D. cannot be advanced as even a theory unless evidence of the nature of this "Divine" element is presented. But the evidence is in nature itself. The single cell shows such extraordinary complexity that to suggest it came about by sheer accident taxes credulity. If you see a footprint in the sand, that surely evidences human activity. The demand – "Yes, but whose footprint is it?"– does not disqualify the contention that somebody was there. "Nope," says the establishment, "not until you can tell us who it was will we let you raise this question in schools."

Another reader argues that Galileo stood for freedom of inquiry, whereas I.D. advocates want to suppress inquiry. This writer apparently did not notice what caused me to write the column. It was the rejection by a government agency for a $40,000 grant to a McGill University anti-I.D. lobby to suppress the presentation and discussion of I.D. theory in the Canadian schools. Suppressing discussion is an odd way of encouraging "freedom of inquiry." Anyway, the I.D. movement doesn't want to suppress evolution. It merely wants it presented as a theory, alongside the I.D. theory.

Why, asked another reader, did I not identify the gutsy woman who stated the reason for the rejection, bringing upon herself the scorn of scientific authority. That's fair. Her name is Janet Halliwell, a chemist and executive vice president of the Social Science and Humanities Research Council. She said that evolution is a theory, not a fact, and the McGill application offered no evidence to support it.

The McGill applicant was furious. Evolution, he said, needs no evidence. It's fact. Apparently Harvard University doesn't quite agree with him. The Boston Globe reports that Harvard has begun an expensive project to discover how life emerged from the chemical soup of early earth. In the 150 years since Darwin, says the Globe, "scientists cannot explain how the process began."

The most sensible letter came from a research scientist. "I think that the current paradigm of evolution by natural selection acting on random variation will change," he writes. "I think that evidence will accumulate to suggest that much of the genetic variation leading to the evolution of life on earth was not random, but was generated by biochemical processes that exhibit intelligent behavior."

Then he urges me not to disclose his identity. Saying this publicly would threaten his getting tenure, he fears. Galileo would understand.

Link (http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=49749)

[Hardrock69]

There can be no "Rebutting" Darwinists except by fools.

Both arguments (Creationism & Darwinism) are not exclusive of the other.

This thread is a non-issue, but the author of the original article is attempting to create an issue out of it, and BigBadBrucie is lamely attempting to emulate him.

The scientific aspect of evolution is simply the factual and biological process of how we evolved. Why we evolved, or the possibility of an intelligent design causing creation is irrelevant.

Religion & Philosophy are concerned with why we got here, but only an idiot would claim that evolution is not a real process.

There are too many religious goobers who believe in the fairy tale that Adam was the very first human on Earth, as if you date Adam using the generations listed in the Bible, you still come out at somewhere around 4000 B.C.

Also, note also that in Hebrew legend, Adam had an earlier wife named Lilith, who argued with Adam, disappeared, and was replaced by Eve... but I digress

Here is just one of many estimates of the Biblical timeline:

http://www.creation-science-prophecy.com/timelin3.gif

Note how they claim the Universe was created in 4,000 B.C. and the Great Flood was at 2343-2344 B.C. LOL.

First century Jewish historian Flavius Josephus (pictured at left) used manuscripts available during his time to calculate that Noah's Flood occurred 1556 years after the creation of Adam. By adding the ages of the patriarchs listed in the Bible, other scholars have come up with roughly similar dates.

Irish archbishop James Ussher calculated that the creation of the world took place in 4004 BC. If 1556 is deducted from 4004 then the worldwide flood of Noah's time was around 2448 BC (if both chronologies are correct; but please note that there is some disagreement even among conservative Bible believers on these dates).

Josephus, Ussher, and other scholars disagree slightly on some of their dates. But most agree that a straightforward reading of the Bible indicates the Deluge must have taken place in the third millennium before the birth of Jesus Christ — possibly between 2500 BC and 2300 BC.

However most scientists agree that the Great Flood & The Great Deluge (2 distinctly seperate events) occurred between 6000 & 13,000 B.C.

Anyone that believes that the Earth was created in 4,000 B.C. still believes in the Easter Bunny & Santa Clause.


Here is a factual timeline of world events, determined by actual archaological discoveries:




Upright humanoids.
3,600,000 BC
Laetoli Footprints.

3,200,000 BC


Human fossil "Lucy", Ethiopia.

2,600,000 BC


Tool fragments, Olduvi Gorge, Serengeti.

1,500,000 BC


Homo Erectus.

1,420,000 BC


Fireside charred bones.

1,000,000 BC


Homo Sapiens, Danakil skull.
780,000 BC
Earth's polarity reversed.
700,000 BC
Homo Archanthropus living in 'Petralona' Cave, Greece.

500,000 BC


Homo Heidleburgensis - Altameras, Europe.

500,000 BC


Boxgrove Man, Chichester, England.

400,000 BC


Wooden spears at Schoningen, Germany.

300,000 BC


Speech via hypoglossal canal.

300,000 BC


Notched bones in Bilzingsleben, Germany.

250,000 BC


Flint hand axe, with fossil decoration.

230,000 BC


Pontnewydd Cave occupied, Denbighshire, Wales.

125,000 BC


Obsidian tools in Eritrea.

125,000 BC


Water levels similar to 20th Century levels.

120,000 BC


Burials.

100,000 BC


10,000 people on the the earth?

80,000 BC


Sea levels drop.

74,000 BC


Malaysian Stone Tools Factory.

74,000 BC


Toba, Volcanic Eruption.

40,000 BC


Mammoth skin tents, Moldova, Russia.
35,000 BC


Inhabitants of Arnhem Land, northern Australia, using red ochre.

33,000 BC


Castelmerle Beads factory, division of labour,
working with mammoth ivory and soapstone (Dordogne).
30,500 BC
Star chart on mammoth ivory.
30,000 BC
The Mask of La Roche-Cotard.
30,000 BC
The Venus of Willendorf coated in red ochre.

28,000 BC


Cave Painting (Lascaux, France).

28,000 BC


Vindija cave, Croatia.

28,000 BC


Carved Sculpture, Lowenmensch, Germany.

28,000 BC


Neanderthal extinct?

24,500 BC


Lapedo child buried on Iberian Peninsular (red ochre).

24,000 BC


Red Lady of Paviland buried in Wales, UK (red ochre).

24,000 BC


Dolni Vestonice, Stone Venus figurines,
weaving, basket work, Mammoth Ivory.

23,000 BC


Pechmel cave Art.
20,000 BC Franchthi Cave (Greece) inhabited
20,000 BC
Time markings on bone.

18,000 BC


Water levels rising.

18,000 BC


Mas D'Azil (French Pyrenees Cave).
13,000 BC


Berber civilization in Moroccan Western Sahara.

11,500 BC


South American Skull.

10,500 BC


Pesse canoe, Holland.

10,000 BC


Sheep in central Asia.
10,000 BC Sahara Desert fertile.

9,000 BC


Ice Age ends.
9,000 BC
Neolithic settlement at Göbekli Tepe, Anatolia.

9,000 BC


Agriculture in Palestine.

8,950 BC


Inca -9 sun.

8,150 BC


Inca -8 sun.

8,000 BC


'Freshwater' Black Sea, 100 mtrs below '20th Century AD' levels.
8,000 BC
Wall built at Jericho.

8,000 BC


Asikli Hoyuk, Turkey, multi-level dwellings, Obsidian.

8,000 BC


Wheat, pigs, goats and cattle.

8,000 BC


Accounts, Tokens (clay balls).

8,000 BC


Chinese Pottery.

7,350 BC


Inca -7 sun.
7,300 BC
Jericho abandoned.

7,300 BC


Kennewick Man, Pacific North West America.

7,000 BC


Mummies buried near Arica, northern Chile.

7,000 BC


Catal Hoyuk room paintings, Turkey.

6,550 BC


Inca -6 sun.

6,500 BC


Biblical 'Adam' born?

6,500 BC


Copper in use in Eastern Anatolia.
6,500 BC
English Channel formed.

6,000 BC


Australian 150 Mtr. floods (Rainbow Snake).

5,750 BC


Inca -5 sun.

5,700 BC


Enoch travels abroad?

5,600 BC


Freshwater in Black Sea replaced by Saltwater flood (Noah?).

5,000 BC


Bone flutes in Chinese ritual burials.

5,000 BC


Mynydd Rhiw Axe Factory, Aberdaron, Wales.

4,950 BC


Inca -4 sun.

4,713 BC


Julian Calendar begins, Noon 1 January.

4,500 BC


Start of Neolithic Period.

4,150 BC


Inca -3 sun.

4,004 BC


Archbishop Ussher date for creation of universe 'Anno Mundi'.

4,000 BC


Revised Masonic calendar for date of creation 'Anno Lucis'.

4,000 BC


Chinese using silk.
4,000 BC
Walled City of Hamoukar inhabited.

4,000 BC


Ur, Mesopotamia, founded.

4,000 BC


Ötzi (Oetzi) Tyrolean 'Ice Man' dies (Frozen Mummy with Copper Axe).

3,800 BC


Civilization in Malta.

3,761 BC


Jewish date for world Creation, AM, anno mundi, 7th Oct.
3,500 BC Mummification in use in Saharan Libya, Uan Muhuggiag.

3,500 BC


Wheel shown on pictogram, Samaria.

3,500 BC


Epic of Gilgamesh, Sumeria.
3,500 BC
Neolithic monuments at Thornborough (Orion's Belt).

3,350 BC


Inca -2 sun.
3,300 BC Export of Obsidian from the volcanic island of Milos

3,200 BC


Sumerian two wheeled cart.

3,200 BC


Karnak, Thebes (Luxor).

3,200 BC


Newgrange, Ireland.

3,114 BC


Start of Mayan Calendar, August 11.

3,050 BC


Canaanite Byblos in Phoenicia (Lebanon/Cannaa)(Tribe of Adam's Son, Cain)
using pottery, copper, bronze, glass and tin alloy.

3,000 BC


Minoan Crete trading with Egypt.

3,000 BC


Sumerian base-60 mathematical formula.

3,000 BC


Sumer and Egypt using arched harp.

2,950 BC


Stonehenge Ditch dug.

2,925 BC


Menes, first king of the 1st Egyptian Dynasty, Memphis.

2,900 BC


Four Wheeled cart pottery (Szigetszentmarton, Hungary).

2,850 BC


Writing on Papyrus.

2,800 BC


Sepulchral Iconography at step pyramid burial of King Djoser, 3rd Dynasty.

2,700 BC


Maes Howe, Orkneys, Scotland.

2,613 BC


Phoenicians trading with 3rd Dynasty Egypt.
2,600 BC
Water conduits in use under Troy.

2,589 BC


Snefru, first King of the Egyptian 4th Dynasty, dies.

2,550 BC


Inca -1 sun.

2,576 BC


Khufu unites Egypt.

2,570 BC


Great Pyramid of Cheops.

2,520 BC
Beaker people inhabit 'Fortress' near Lisbon.

2,500 BC


Egyptian Book of the Dead.

2,500 BC


Pyramids (Orion's Belt).
2,400 BC
Big Stones at Stonehenge erected (Copper weapons).
2,300 BC
Amesbury Archer buried.

2,300 BC


Mesopotamian maps.

2,200 BC


Worldwide climate change, leading to drought.

2,100 BC


Ziggurat at Ur built.

2,000 BC


Xinjiang, northwest China, Caucasian mummies.

2,000 BC


Greeks, no arch.

2,000 BC


Bronze Age Civilization disappears on Malta.

2,000 BC


Akkadian language replaces Sumerian but Sumerian writing remains in use,
for Sacred Literature.

1,953 BC


Beginning of the Chinese calendar, March 5.

1,780 BC


Babylonian texts controlling alcohol, Hammurabi.

1,750 BC


Inca 1st sun.

1,700 BC


Earthquake devastates Greece.

1,700 BC


Eruption of the 'Vesuvius' volcano destroys Avellino, in Italy.

1,628 BC


Santorini volcano (Thera, Greece) destroys Minoan Crete (Atlantis?).
1,595 BC Babylon is sacked by Hittites.

1,595 BC


Rise of Mycenaean Greeks.

1,539 BC


Ahmose, 18th Dynasty, The New Kingdom.
1,500 BC
The Rig Veda in use in India.

1,500 BC


Aryans invade India, four-part caste system introduced.

1,458 BC


Thutmose III, King of Egypt, takes Megiddo, passing easily through Cannae.
1,410 BC
Joseph interprets dream for Thutmose IV.

*1,390 BC


Amenhotep III, King of Egypt.

*1,353 BC


Amenophis IV, Egyptian King, becomes Akhnaton (Moses/Oedipus?).

*1,340 BC


Akhnaton founds new capital, AkhtAton (the City of Horizon), Tel-El-Amarna,
*1,323 BC Tutankhamun died,


*David M. Rohl theory puts these dates nearer millennium

1,300 BC


Treasury of Atreus, Tomb of Agamemon, Beehive Tomb, no Arch.

1,290 BC


Seti 1st, Egyptian Pharaoh, died.
1,213 BC Ramesses II died.

1,200 BC


Greek Dark Ages begin.

1,200 BC


I Ching divination in use in China.
1,175 BC Philistines arrived in Canaan
1,110 BC Phoenicians establish a colony at Gades (modern-day Cadiz, Spain)

1,079 BC


Egyptian Year of the Hyena - tough times.
1,078 BC Moses leads 'One God' Tribes out of Egypt?

1,059 BC


Cataclysmic event leading to 18 years of distress in Europe.

1,000 BC


Egyptians using Blue Lotus, Opium, Cocaine, Cannabis, Nicotine and Silk.

980 BC


Saul became King of Hebrews, Tribe of Benjamin.

970 BC


Biblical David becomes King of Judah (Hebron Valley), while Ishbaal (Saul's Son) ruled as 'King' over the Hebrews’ northern kingdom, Israel?

970 BC


Hiram becomes Phoenician King (Tyre).

960 BC


Biblical David becomes King of Judah/Israel and moves to Jerusalem,
then abdicates yet maintains control?

959 BC


Biblical Solomon becomes King of Judah/Israel?

958 BC


Hiram begins building Biblical Temple, at Jerusalem, for Solomon.

950 BC


Inca 2nd sun.

940 BC


Queen of Sheba (Yemen) gives birth to King Solomon's child?

936 BC


Hiram, King of Tyre, dies.

925 BC


Sacking of Jerusalem by Shishak (Ramesses II?).
922 BC Solomon dies?
918 BC Jeroboam, King of 10 Tribes (Israel), Rehoboam, King of 2 (Judah\Benjamin).

900 BC


Homer writes Iliad and Odyssey.
880 BC Samaria becomes the new Capital of Israel.
874 BC Elijah executes 450 prophets of Baal.

868 BC


Assyria extracts tribute from Judah and Phoenician cities.

842 BC


King Ahaziah, of Judah, dies at Megiddo.
814 BC Carthage founded by Phoenician settlers.

776 BC


Shoshenk 1st, Pharaoh of Egypt.

776 BC


1st Olympic Games.
747 BC
Nabonassar becomes King of Assyria (AN - Anno Nabonassari - Ptolomy).

745 BC


Assyria creates standing army.
732 BC
Israel overrun by Assyrians, Refugees flee to Judah.
701 BC
Assyrian army, under the ruler Sennacherib, lays siege to Jerusalem.
700 BC
King Hezekiah builds water conduits under Jerusalem, Isaiah.
700 BC
Hindu philosophy evolving.

700 BC


British Iron Age.

664 BC


Sacking of Thebes (Valley of Kings) by the Assyrians.

662 BC


'Julian Calendar' date for founding of Rome.
657 BC Kypselos controls Corinth

640 BC


Spartans subdue Messenians.

623 BC


Brahman Buddha Gotama (Siddhatta) born.
621 BC
King Josiah of Judah purges the Temple in Jerusalem, of 'pagan' influences.
616 BC
King Josiah of Judah reads from Deuteronomy.

612 BC


Fall of Assyrian Nineveh to Chaldeans, Babylon, Biblical Jonah.

609 BC


King Josiah of Judah dies at Megiddo.

604 BC


Jerusalem attacked by Nebuchadrezzar II.
600 BC
Etruscans on Lemnos, Greece.

597 BC


Jerusalem occupied by Nebuchadrezzar II.

587 BC


Temple at Jerusalem destroyed by Nebuchadrezzar II.

586 BC


Start of Babylonian exile for Jews.
580 BC
Birth of Lao-tsu, Founder of Taoism.

569 BC


Pythagoras born, Samos, Greece.
562 BC Genesis composed.
552 BC Temple of Artemis\Diana built at Ephesus (third wonder of the world).

551 BC


Confucius born in Shantung Province, China.

539 BC


Persia controls Babylon, Phoenicia, Palestine, Syria & Cyprus.

538 BC


Cyrus II allows selected exiled Jews to return to Jerusalem,
after producing a charter, on the rights of nations.
522 BC
Darius the Great takes stronghold of Tigra, in Armenia.

520 BC


Building of the second Temple at Jerusalem starts.

516 BC


End of Babylonian exile for those who saw Jerusalem as home.

515 BC


Darius the Great founds Persian 'Persepolis' on prehistoric settlement.

515 BC


Second Temple completed, driven by Prophets Haggai & Zechariah.
503 BC 'Phoenician' Carthage makes an alliance with 'Rome'.

500 BC


Roman semicircular Arch.

480 BC


Battles of Thermopylae and Salamis.
458 BC
Ezra sent to govern Jerusalem (5 Books of the Torah).
450 BC
Polyclitus introduces symmetria into Sculpture.

445 BC


Nehemiah sees Jerusalem’s walls built.
432 BC
Meton introduces his Lunar calendar in Athens.
432 BC
The Parthenon, Athens, completed.
418 BC Sparta defeat Athens in the Battle of Mantinea.

400 BC


Fall of Theseus' Athens, Sophocles.

400 BC


The Cynic movement founded.

399 BC


Socrates dies, Athens, Greece.

398 BC


Ezra leads last Jews from Babylonia to Jerusalem.

377 BC


Hippocrates dies.
373 BC
Helike submerged, Greece.

360 BC


Plato writes The Republic.

350 BC


Aristotle writes on Metaphysics.
336 BC King Philip II of Macedonia dies.

333 BC


Alexander the Great wins 'Battle of Issus', Turkey.

330 BC


Alexander sacks Persepolis.

323 BC


Alexander dies, Ptolemaic dynasty begins.

300 BC


Euclid in Alexandria, Egypt (Arabian Text).

300 BC


The Stoic movement founded in Athens, by Zeno of Citium (Cyprus).

270 BC


Epicuras dies.

267 BC


Ctesibius invents clockwork timepiece, with Cuckoo.
240 BC Halley's comet reported in China.

238 BC


Decree of Canopus for Ptolemy Euergetes.

235 BC


Ptolomy III establishes a 'Great Library' at Alexandria.

230 BC


Aristarchus of Samos died, after proposing heliocentric cosmos.
221 BC Magnetic compass in use in China.

221 BC


Building of Great Wall of China begins.

218 BC


Hannibal crosses the Alps with elephants.

212 BC


Archimedes dies.
200 BC 'Jesus ben Sirach' compiles his Ecclesiaticus.
200 BC
Parchment in use at Pergamum, Turkey.

190 BC


'Rosetta Stone' ordered by Ptolemy V Epiphanes.

169 BC


Antiochus IV Epiphanes plunders 'The Temple' at Jerusalem.

167 BC


'Antiochus IV' offers sacrifice to 'Zeus' in 'The Temple'.
166 BC
Maccabean Revolt 'Hanukkah' puts 'The Temple' back in 'Jewish' control.
164 BC Halley's comet recorded on Babylonian 'Cuneiform' Tablets.

150 BC


Inca 3rd sun.

130 BC


Septuagint completed.

120 BC


Hipparchus dies.

87 BC


Clockwork timepiece, Antikythera.
86 BC Halley's comet.

73 BC


Spartacus leads a slave's rebellion.

63 BC


Roman Army's invasion of Judea (Pompey).

55 BC


Julius Caesar attempts an invasion of Britain.

54 BC


Crassus plunders 'The Temple' in Jerusalem.

54 BC


'Julius Caesar' fails to invade Britain.

46 BC


'Julian' Calendar standardized.

44 BC


'Gaius Julius Caesar' assassinated (March 15th).

41 BC


Cleopatra sails into Tarsus, to meet 'Mark Antony'.

37 BC


Herod the Great, ruler of Judaea.

31 BC


Cleopatra and Mark Anthony die.

20 BC


Philo Judaeus born (Greek-speaking 'Jewish' philosopher).
19 BC Virgil (Publius Vergilius Maro) died.
11 BC Halley's comet.

7 BC


Jesus, of Nazareth, born.

4 BC


Herod 'the Great' dies, at Jericho.

[Mr Grimsdale]

it's a bit like that skit in airplane

first there were the dinosaurs, but they died and turned into oil which was discovered by the arabs and...

it all comes back to those pesky arabs!

[jhale667]

Excellent post, HR. :D

[bobgnote]

Green flaves? Sure, here goes:

A little bit of Mickey-junction fell to earth one day . . .

and it was shit forsure in the 2008-2012 window, for the USA!

[Warham]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
The scientific aspect of evolution is simply the factual and biological process of how we evolved.

And they still haven't figured it out yet.

How is it possible to turn inorganic matter to organic matter?

I've never seen that experiment replicated by any scientist.

[kentuckyklira]

People that don´t understand Darwin are frightfully bad at maths!

10thousands and more years is a lot of time!

Unless of course, if you believe your wife was made of one of your ribs!

[kentuckyklira]

Originally posted by Warham
And they still haven't figured it out yet.

How is it possible to turn inorganic matter to organic matter?

I've never seen that experiment replicated by any scientist. It´s pretty easy actually. Unless of course, you don´t know what all constitutes organic matter!

[Warham]

I don't think it's possible for a tadpole to become a man in four billion years.

Not enough time.

[Warham]

Originally posted by kentuckyklira
It´s pretty easy actually. Unless of course, you don´t know what all constitutes organic matter!

It is, eh?

There's never been an experiment where they've been able to create life out of inorganic or nonliving matter.

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Warham
And they still haven't figured it out yet.

How is it possible to turn inorganic matter to organic matter?

I've never seen that experiment replicated by any scientist.

um...dude, that's not evolution. evolution is the existing living organisms changing, over time, into different living organisms.

but that's besides the point.



the theory of evolution is pretty well established. that's probably why intelligent design is becoming more prominent in the religious sectors. they realize that to argue creationism as a literal interpretation of the bible is becoming more and more of a losing argument. so instead, they move to I.D.


now, the funny thing is, long before I.D. became fashionable, i was a proponent. still am. makes much more sense to me that the structured order and complexity of the big bang creating the universe came from an intelligent entity, then to assume it sprang from nothingness.

still, it has no possible way of being tested or verified. it does not belong in science class.

simple speculation is not a scientific theory. and the "proof" being offered? that the universe is so complex? that's not proof.


talking about intelligent design in logic, religion or philosophical debates is fine. makes good sense.

discussing it in the context of science classes is really just a subterfuge to promote religion.

[Warham]

One of the tenets of evolution is that life evolved from inorganic matter, otherwise you'd need something supernatural as the cause, which just won't do in the scientific world.

Actually it's been proven that MICROevolution is true, because it's been observed over time. The rest, not so. It's just an assumption based on what they see with natural selection.

My point is, macroevolution is a poor theory that doesn't account for the short amount of time life has been around OR the complexity of the organisms involved.

I think pointing out the flaws of Darwinian evolutionary theory doesn't even require a discussion of religion.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
now, the funny thing is, long before I.D. became fashionable, i was a proponent. still am. makes much more sense to me that the structured order and complexity of the big bang creating the universe came from an intelligent entity, then to assume it sprang from nothingness.


Why?

Why is it more logical to believe that an intelligent entity sprang from nothingness, yet it is illogical to believe that the universe did?

[Warham]

I have no problem with microevolution.

Anybody with two eyes can see variations in species, like the difference between a Golden Retriever and a Collie.

My problem with evolution arises when we talk about a one celled organism slowly turning into a fish which gradually grows arms and legs, crawls out of the water, starts to breathe air, then 100-200 million years later is a homo sapien.

It's not about promoting a religion, it's about common sense, at least to me.

[ODShowtime]

Where, one reader demanded, did I get the information that 10 percent of scientists accept intelligent design? I got it from a National Post (newspaper) article published two years ago, which said that 90 percent of the members of the National Academy of Science "consider themselves atheists."

Wow, what a crap article. What crap science. :rolleyes:

It's like they're trying to make us forget what that word means with this nonsense.

[Nickdfresh]

http://www.tian.cc/matt_whitetrash02.jpg
LOL@ this thread...

Maybe we can "refute" the earth not being flat as well...

No wonder why Asia is eating our lunch as far as the sciences go...




Originally posted by Warham
I don't think it's possible for a tadpole to become a man in four billion years.

Not enough time.
http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v60/lindstroms/caveman-lawyer2.jpg

[Warham]

Asians eats their dogs and cats for lunch (not all, but many).

We haven't adopted that standard over here...yet.

[Nickdfresh]

So? We eat way too much...

[Warham]

Dogs and cats have too much fatty content.

[jhale667]

Originally posted by knuckleboner

.....still, it (I.D.)has no possible way of being tested or verified. it does not belong in science class.



...discussing it in the context of science classes is really just a subterfuge to promote religion.


Exactly.

[jhale667]

Originally posted by Warham
Dogs and cats have too much fatty content.



MMMmmmm......puppy. :D

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Dogs and cats have too much fatty content.

So do Whoppers™ and Big Macs™ served along side a generous, super-sized, portion of Freedom Fries™ and an XL Jesus Juice©...:)

[DLR'sCock]

It is not impossible nor improbable for the big bang, creation, evolution, science, and God to all be connected at all.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
So do Whoppers™ and Big Macs™ served along side a generous, super-sized, portion of Freedom Fries™ and an XL Jesus Juice©...:)

Coke is Jesus Juice?

No wonder I love Jesus so much!

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Warham
It is, eh?

There's never been an experiment where they've been able to create life out of inorganic or nonliving matter.


Yes there has. 50 years ago.



In the early 1950s, Miller was a graduate student in the University of Chicago laboratory of Harold Urey, the discoverer of heavy hydrogen and an authority on planet formation. He undertook experiments designed to find out how lightning—reproduced by repeated electric discharges—might have affected the primitive earth atmosphere, which Urey believed to be a mixture of hydrogen, methane, ammonia and water vapor. The result exceeded Miller's wildest hopes and propelled him instantly into the firmament of celebrities. In just a few days, more than 15 percent of the methane carbon subjected to electrical discharges in the laboratory had been converted to a variety of amino acids, the building blocks of proteins, and other potential biological constituents. Although the primitive atmosphere is no longer believed to be as rich in hydrogen as once thought by Urey, the discovery that the Murchison meteorite contains the same amino acids obtained by Miller, and even in the same relative proportions, suggests strongly that his results are relevant.

Miller's discovery has sparked the birth of a new chemical discipline, abiotic chemistry, which aims to reproduce in the laboratory the chemical events that initiated the emergence of life on earth some four billion years ago. Besides amino acids and other organic acids, experiments in abiotic chemistry have yielded sugars, as well as purine and pyrimidine bases, some of which are components of the nucleic acids DNA and RNA, and other biologically significant substances, although often under more contrived conditions and in lower yields than one would expect for a prebiotic process. How far in the direction of biochemical complexity the rough processes studied by abiotic chemistry may lead is not yet clear. But it seems very likely that the first building blocks of nascent life were provided by amino acids and other small organic molecules such as are known to form readily in the laboratory and on celestial bodies. To what extent these substances arose on earth or were brought in by the falling comets and asteroids that contributed to the final accretion of our planet is still being debated.


Blah de blah, there is tons of stuff on this.

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/21438/page/2

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Warham
I have no problem with microevolution.

Anybody with two eyes can see variations in species, like the difference between a Golden Retriever and a Collie.

My problem with evolution arises when we talk about a one celled organism slowly turning into a fish which gradually grows arms and legs, crawls out of the water, starts to breathe air, then 100-200 million years later is a homo sapien.

It's not about promoting a religion, it's about common sense, at least to me.

I think your problem is that you don't realise just how long 4 billion years is.

A billion is a big fucker of a number, just because your government pisses away trillions of dollars doesn't make it any smaller.

We have got from wolf to chiwawa in a couple of hundred years.

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Why?

Why is it more logical to believe that an intelligent entity sprang from nothingness, yet it is illogical to believe that the universe did?


i agree, both are "leaps of faith" (if you'll permit me a term of art, not religiously connected ;))


but near as i can see, my 2 options are
1) to believe that the universe sprang from nothingness
2) there was an ever-present intelligent entity


to the knuckleboner, it requires a smaller leap of faith to assume the second. i don't claim it to be irrefutable logic that everybody should see. and i CERTAINLY don't think it's science that should be taught in science class.

[Hardrock69]

Yeah but according to Christianity only God can make life out of dust...
:rolleyes:

[Warham]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
Yeah but according to Christianity only God can make life out of dust...
:rolleyes:

Hardrock,

Didn't you say you believed in a supreme being?

[Hardrock69]

Yes, but that is irrelevant.

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by Seshmeister
Yes there has. 50 years ago.



Blah de blah, there is tons of stuff on this.

http://www.americanscientist.org/template/AssetDetail/assetid/21438/page/2

It's a well known experiment and certainly created the building blocks thought be required to create living organisms but artificial life has never been created in a laboratory. The reactions described in that article only produced other more complicated molecules from the raw materials supplied.

I say that as a someone who finds the whole ID thing laughable.

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
i agree, both are "leaps of faith" (if you'll permit me a term of art, not religiously connected ;))


but near as i can see, my 2 options are
1) to believe that the universe sprang from nothingness
2) there was an ever-present intelligent entity


to the knuckleboner, it requires a smaller leap of faith to assume the second. i don't claim it to be irrefutable logic that everybody should see. and i CERTAINLY don't think it's science that should be taught in science class.

It certainly is a smaller leap of faith, and I can understand people thinking like that. A lot of physicists and cosmologists find that difficult to come to terms with. Most are however prepared to make the larger leap of faith because they keep finding the leap getting smaller with each new discovery.

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by Warham
Anybody with two eyes can see variations in species, like the difference between a Golden Retriever and a Collie.

That's got nothing to do with evolution, that's cross breeding over several generations. In a crude way it's like taking a black guy and white girl and ending up with a mixed race off spring. The Golden Retriever and Collie are both dogs in the same way that a black guy and white girl are both humans.

Now if you could cross breed an elephant with fish...


Originally posted by Warham

My problem with evolution arises when we talk about a one celled organism slowly turning into a fish which gradually grows arms and legs, crawls out of the water, starts to breathe air, then 100-200 million years later is a homo sapien.

It's not about promoting a religion, it's about common sense, at least to me.

That's as maybe, and I'm not going to argue the point cos' obviously it's a matter of faith, but surely the religious aspect could still apply to evolution? In fact it could be said to be a neater solution than ID, all you need is some sort of supernatural input right at the beginning, i.e making a single cell life form, and then everything just runs it's course.

I wouldn't agree with that viewpoint but I could certainly see some merit in it rather than what you're proposing.

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by Warham
One of the tenets of evolution is that life evolved from inorganic matter, otherwise you'd need something supernatural as the cause, which just won't do in the scientific world.

Er... no. Evolution makes no attempt to claim the origin of life itself. It simply explains how species evolve over time, becoming extinct where conditions are no longer suitable and changing into new "superior" lifeforms to take advantage of those changed conditions.


Originally posted by Warham
Actually it's been proven that MICROevolution is true, because it's been observed over time. The rest, not so. It's just an assumption based on what they see with natural selection.

You say it's been observed over time, exactly how long is the time you're talking about. Taking say 500 years as the limit of real human scientific observation (we'll ignore those pesky Egyptians, Mayans etc mapping the stars) then there really hasn't been a great deal of time to draw that conclusion from direct observation.

If all Evolution was based on was observation over a period of a few hundred years and then trying to extrapolate this over the 4 billion years you're all so keen on it would indeed be a very poor theory. Using the fossil evidence and more recently the DNA evidence they're able to increase that time period considerably.


Originally posted by Warham
My point is, macroevolution is a poor theory that doesn't account for the short amount of time life has been around OR the complexity of the organisms involved.

I think pointing out the flaws of Darwinian evolutionary theory doesn't even require a discussion of religion.

Where's the complexity if humans share so much DNA with simpler organisms?

The DNA of all sorts of creatures has been mapped and the links can be seen.

We're nowhere near artifically replicating life but the DNA evidence and fossil records show the one species can certainly evolve over time and spawn other species.

[Warham]

Originally posted by Mr Grimsdale
Now if you could cross breed an elephant with fish...

I'd bring a question into that discussion by asking where the fossil is of a fish with two arms and two legs. When I'm talking about transitional fossils, I'm not talking about a Neaderthal or Cro-magnon.



In fact it could be said to be a neater solution than ID, all you need is some sort of supernatural input right at the beginning, i.e making a single cell life form, and then everything just runs it's course.

I wouldn't agree with that viewpoint but I could certainly see some merit in it rather than what you're proposing.

I don't really have a problem with people who believe in evolution as a tool for a higher power to use.

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by Warham
I'd bring a question into that discussion by asking where the fossil is of a fish with two arms and two legs.

I couldn't tell you what that fossil is but the classic example is that "mud skipper" fish or whatever it's called. There it is, even now, hauling itself along on it's fins. They've been around 100's of millions of years, and only continue to exist as their "design" is perfectly capable of surviving the conditions the animal has encountered.

By the time a similar creature started to evolve 200 million years ago to the point where it was developing legs and arms it no longer looked like a fish.

Take a look at this...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/4879672.stm
http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41525000/gif/_41525972_fish_transition_416.gif


Originally posted by Warham
I don't really have a problem with people who believe in evolution as a tool for a higher power to use.

So you'd accept that a higher power could create the first single cell life form and then let "nature take its course"?

That's fair enough, with current scientific understanding that requires no greater leap of faith than someone saying there must be a scientific explanation behind the origin of the first single cell life form.

If all this debate really revolves around is how did the very first life evolve then there's really no problem with applying creation theories instead of a scientific approach as neither can be definitely proved at present and both require an act of faith.

[Nickdfresh]

It's also been shown that sea-mammals, such as whales and dolphins, were once land creatures...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1550000/images/_1553008_whale300.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1553008.stm

[Chong Li]

As a conservative , the creationists are an embarassment to the Republican party. They believe shit like the Earth being created in 6 days, Noahs Ark, Dinosaurs living with man and that the Earth is only 6K years old.

The rest of the world and our country laughs at these fools.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Warham
I'd bring a question into that discussion by asking where the fossil is of a fish with two arms and two legs. When I'm talking about transitional fossils, I'm not talking about a Neaderthal or Cro-magnon.



Dude, they have fossils of the beasts that evolved between dinosaurs and modern day birds. That's transitional between time and species.

I love it, 3 billion years is a short amount of time to you.:confused:

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by Warham
I don't really have a problem with people who believe in evolution as a tool for a higher power to use.

Cool.

:cool:

[Mr Grimsdale]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
It's also been shown that sea-mammals, such as whales and dolphins, were once land creatures...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1550000/images/_1553008_whale300.jpg

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1553008.stm

Jeez, I think I went out with her once.