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View Full Version : The horrors really are your America, Mr Bush



Seshmeister
06-05-2006, 05:16 PM
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2209636,00.html


The Sunday Times June 04, 2006

The horrors really are your America, Mr Bush
Andrew Sullivan

‘This is not America.” Those words were President George W Bush’s attempt to explain the horrors of Abu Ghraib prison on the Arabic-language network Alhurra in 2004. He spoke the words as if they were an empirical matter, but a cognitive dissonance could be sensed through them.

If the men and women who tortured and abused and murdered at Abu Ghraib did not represent America, what did they represent? They wore the uniforms of the United States military. They were under the command of the American military. In the grotesque, grinning photographs they clearly seemed to believe that what they were doing was routine and approved.

And we now know from the official record that Donald Rumsfeld, the defence secretary, had personally authorised the use of unmuzzled dogs to terrify detainees long before Abu Ghraib occurred, exactly as we saw in those photos. Does the secretary of defence not represent America?

Almost two years after the torture story broke Congress finally roused itself and passed an amendment to a defence appropriations bill by John McCain that forbade the use of any “cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment” of detainees by any American official anywhere in the world. It was passed by veto-proof margins and Bush signed it. But he appended a “signing statement” insisting that, as commander-in-chief, he retained the right to order torture if he saw fit.

And so on May 18 the nominee for CIA director, Michael Hayden, was asked directly by Senator Dianne Feinstein whether he regarded “waterboarding” as a legitimate interrogation technique. Hayden replied: “Let me defer that to closed session, and I would be happy to discuss it in some detail.”

Huh? Why a closed session? Isn’t the law crystal clear? Isn’t strapping a person to a board, tilting him so that his head is below his feet, and pouring water through a cloth into his mouth to simulate drowning a form of “cruel, inhuman and degrading” treatment? And isn’t that illegal? In America? Or is that not America either?

I ask these questions because so few in power in Washington want to go there. When I have brought up the question of these atrocities in front of senators and senior administration officials in private, I have noticed something. Their eyes flicker down or away. Some refuse to discuss the matter, as if it is too much to contemplate that the US has become a country that detains people without trial or due process, and reserves the right to torture them.

Or they tell me that however grotesque the charges Bush would never approve of them. It’s always someone else’s responsibility. “This is not who American servicemen are,” Richard Armitage, the then deputy secretary of state, insisted after Abu Ghraib. Or in the words of the secretary of state Condoleezza Rice, in an interview with Al Arabiya: “Americans do not do this to other people.”

I know what these people are saying or trying to say. The vast majority of American soldiers are decent, brave, honourable professionals. The America I love and the Americans I know are among the most admirable and open-hearted people on the planet.

But this much must also be said: the words of Bush and Rice and Armitage are still untruths. That much we know. And last week, we had to absorb another dark truth: that in a town called Haditha, US Marines appear to have murdered women and children in cold blood and covered it up.

There is also a new claim of a similar kind of massacre at a place called Ishaqi. Last week the American military issued fresh ethical guidelines for soldiers in Iraq. One marine commander told Time magazine: “If 24 innocent civilians were killed by marines, this will put a hole in the heart of every single marine.”

I believe him. But I do not believe that this president has ever acknowledged his own responsibility for the atrocities committed by Americans on his watch and under his command. He simply cannot process the fact that his own hand provided the signature that allowed torture to spread like a cancer through the military and CIA.

He cannot acknowledge that his own war policy — of just enough troops to lose — has created a war of attrition in Iraq in which soldiers are often overwhelmed and demoralised and stretched to the limit, and so more than usually vulnerable to the psychic snaps that sometimes lead to atrocities.

His obdurate refusal to change course, to provide sufficient troops, to fire his defence secretary, to embrace, rather than evade, the McCain amendment has robbed him of any excuse, any evasion of responsibility.

And yet he still evades it. Last week he spoke of Abu Ghraib as something that had somehow happened to him and to his country, almost as if he were not the commander-in-chief or president of the country that had committed such abuse. When the evidence is presented to him, he displaces it. He puts it to one side. In his mind America is a force for good. And so it cannot commit evil. And if he says that often enough it will somehow become true. In this way his powers of denial kick in like a forcefield against reality.

It is, I think, an integral part of his own world view, which is that of a former addict whose life was transformed by a rigid form of fundamentalist Christianity. “[My faith] frees me to enjoy life and not worry what comes next,” he told the reporter Fred Barnes. When you know you have been saved, when you know your motives are pure, when, as Bush so often puts it, your “heart” is a good one, then it follows that you cannot commit evil. Or if you do, it doesn’t attach to you. Somehow, it isn’t yours, even when it is.

In this sense fundamentalist Christianity can enable evil by promoting the lie that some humans have been saved from it. It misses the deeper Christian truth that even good people can do bad things. It forgets that what is noble about America is not that Americans are somehow morally better than anyone else. But that it is a country with a democratic system that helps expose the constancy of human evil, and minimise its power through the rule of law, democratic accountability and constitutional checks.

That system was devised by men who assumed the worst of people, not the best, who expected Americans not to be better than any other people, but the same. It was the wisdom of the system that would save America, not the moral superiority of its people.

What is so tragic about this presidency is that it has simultaneously proclaimed American goodness while dismantling the constitutional protections and laws that guard against American evil. The good intention has overwhelmed the fact of human fallibility. But reality — human reality — eventually intrudes. Denial breaks down. The physical evidence of torture, of murder, of atrocity, slowly overwhelms the will to disbelieve in it.

I am sorry, Mr President. This is America. And you have helped make it so.

ELVIS
06-05-2006, 05:46 PM
Grotesque, grinning photographs ??

Give me a break...

BigBadBrian
06-05-2006, 05:53 PM
Geez.... :rolleyes:

This coming from the citizen of a nation that has cameras on every street corner, their own version of the Patriot Act, and troops in Iraq (with men mistreating Iraqis) right along with ours.

:gulp:

Seshmeister
06-05-2006, 06:18 PM
Stop being dumb Brian.

You know I'm against all of that here obviously.

The writer is an Americak citizen who usually votes and preaches Republican in a Murdoch owned right leaning newspaper.

Seshmeister
06-05-2006, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
Grotesque, grinning photographs ??

Give me a break...

No I'll give some photographs...

http://www.pacificviews.org/weblog/archives/Pictures/abu_ghraib_pile.jpg

http://www.peacenowar.net/Iraq/News/April%2004-Photos/Abu%20Ghraib/iraqis_tortured_60min2-f.jpg

http://www.peacenowar.net/Iraq/News/April%2004-Photos/Abu%20Ghraib/xinsrc_34050120110238713021.jpg

Spc. Charles Graner of the 372nd Military Police Company smiles as he poses by the body of Manadel al-Jamadi, an Iraqi who died in U.S. custody at Abu Ghraib prison. [Reuters/ABCNEWS]

blueturk
06-05-2006, 06:36 PM
Well, Elvis? Do the pictures meet your criteria for grotesque and grinning?

ELVIS
06-05-2006, 07:47 PM
So, the last pic is suggesting US troops killed that terrorist ??

Seshmeister
06-05-2006, 08:37 PM
How do you know he was a terrorist?

ELVIS
06-05-2006, 08:39 PM
You just made my point...

Seshmeister
06-05-2006, 08:43 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manadel_al-Jamadi

Manadel al-Jamadi was an Iraqi who is thought to have been tortured to death during interrogation at Abu Ghraib prison. His name became known in 2004 when the Abu Ghraib scandal made news; his corpse, packed in ice, was the background for widely-reprinted pictures of grinning Specialists Sabrina Harman and Charles Graner, each offering a "thumbs-up" gesture. But the cause of his death was not generally known until February 17, 2005, when it was revealed that he died after a fruitless half-hour interrogation, during which he was suspended from a barred window by his wrists, which were bound behind his back. News reports introduced the term Palestinian Hanging, a coinage attributed to the alleged frequent use of this technique by Israeli troops on Palestinian prisoners.

AP correspondent Seth Hettena reports that 30 minutes after beginning his questioning of the prisoner, the interrogator called for guards to reposition al-Jamadi, who he believed was "playing possum" as he slouched with his arms stretched behind him. But the guards found otherwise.

"After we found out he was dead, they were nervous," Specialist Dennis Stevanus said of the CIA interrogator and translator. "They didn't know what the hell to do."

U.S. Navy SEALs apprehended al-Jamadi as a suspect in the October 27, 2003, bombing of Red Cross offices in Baghdad that killed 12 people. His role in the bombing, if any, is unknown. His status was that of a ghost prisoner, whose imprisonment and death would not normally have been included in official prison records.

According to Spc. Jason Kenner's testimony, al-Jamadi was brought to the prison by U.S. Navy SEALs in good health; Kenner says he saw that al-Jamadi looked extensively bruised when he was brought out of the showers, dead. According to Kenner a "battle" took place among CIA and military interrogators over who should dispose of the body.

Captain Donald Reese, company commander of 372nd Military Police Company, gave testimony about al-Jamadi's death, saying that he saw the dead prisoner. Reese was quoted as saying that "I was told that when he was brought in, he was combative, that they took him up to the room and during the interrogation he passed [...] (the body) was bleeding from the head, nose, mouth." Reese stated that the corpse was locked in a shower room overnight and the next day was fitted with an intravenous drip. The body was then autopsied, concluding that the cause of death was a blood clot from trauma. Reese stated that this was an attempt to hide what occurred from other inmates.

Sgt. Ivan Frederick wrote an account to his family in November 2003 that interrogators had "[s]tressed him out so bad that the man passed away. [Prison personnel] put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. [...] The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away."

On May 28, 2005, Navy SEAL Lieutenant Andrew Ledford, the commanding officer of the platoon of SEALs that were accused of inflicting the fatal beating, was acquitted of all responsibility for al-Jamadi's death. Ledford had been charged with assault, dereliction of duty, conduct unbecoming an officer and making false statements.

Eight members of Ledford's platoon received administrative punishment for abuse of al-Jamadi and other prisoners.

According to an article on the Court TV website: "Another lieutenant received a career-killing punitive letter of reprimand following a hearing before the Navy's top SEAL."

sadaist
06-05-2006, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
a right leaning newspaper.

What newspaper would that be?

Seshmeister
06-05-2006, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
You just made my point...

Which was?

He was a terrorist suspect but instead of using a legal process to find out if he was guilty he was tortured to death which

a) Is sick, illegal and immoral
b) Creates yet another martyr putting our troops and us in more danger.
c) Let to absolutely no intelligence info to help catch terrorists or to prevent future terrorism.

ELVIS
06-05-2006, 08:58 PM
How do you know he was tortured to death ??

Seshmeister
06-05-2006, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by sadaist
What newspaper would that be?

London Sunday Times.

You may need to be a registered member to view the link I posted.

frets5150
06-05-2006, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
How do you know he was tortured to death ??

Yeah your right looks like they are playing a freindly game of Poker


:rolleyes:

ELVIS
06-05-2006, 09:53 PM
Originally posted by frets5150
Yeah your right looks like they are playing a freindly game of Poker


Yeah...

Poker the TERRORIST'S eyes out...

At least they applied a bandage...


:elvis:

frets5150
06-05-2006, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
Yeah...

Poker the TERRORIST'S eyes out...

At least they applied a bandage...


:elvis:

TERRORIST'S? Says who

sadaist
06-05-2006, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
London Sunday Times.

You may need to be a registered member to view the link I posted.

Oh. I thought you meant an American right leaning newspaper.

sadaist
06-05-2006, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister


c) Let to absolutely no intelligence info to help catch terrorists or to prevent future terrorism.

What's your source on this little nugget? Or are you assuming?

sadaist
06-05-2006, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
How do you know he was a terrorist?

The exact same way that you know he wasn't.

LoungeMachine
06-05-2006, 10:52 PM
Originally posted by ELVIS
Yeah...

Poker the TERRORIST'S eyes out...

At least they applied a bandage...


:elvis:

This is somehow funny to you, Mr Christian?

:confused:


Talk about groteque////:mad:

Seshmeister
06-05-2006, 11:15 PM
It's kind of scary.

I think the main reason I post in this forum is to try and understand the fucked up completely illogical way a lot of 'Christians' in the US think.

I'm not sure I'm learning very much except that they are even more fucked up than I thought...

ELVIS is entirely different from the guy who was beaten to death by the US government because he was found guilty of a crime in a court of law a couple of times yet he feels that now he has a place in heaven by being 'born again', so it's ok for people who aren't to be killed without that luxury.

It's very similar to the Bush mindset.

The big fucking irony is that like Stalin and Hitler, what might look like opposites in ideology, are very fucking similar. A fundamentalist Muslim and a fundamentalist Christian have much more in common than they do with a sane person.

Cheers!

:gulp:

Seshmeister
06-05-2006, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by sadaist
What's your source on this little nugget? Or are you assuming?

I'm taking this as a tacit acceptance of (a) and (b) so without a stonewall save thousands of lives (c) then it's plain murder.

My source for this little nugget is the simple fact that the victim died within 30 minutes and that no prosecutions of anyone else have been made.

LoungeMachine
06-05-2006, 11:44 PM
Originally posted by Seshmeister


A fundamentalist Muslim and a fundamentalist Christian have much more in common than they do with a sane person.

Cheers!

:gulp:

I've been banging that drum for over a year in here.

And in turn have been called the most vile names by so-called "Christians" in here.

A religious hypocrite is a religious hypocrite, regardless of where they pray. :cool:

Many pray/prey right here

Seshmeister
06-05-2006, 11:52 PM
This forum used to be predominantly Bush supporters though so maybe a tiny tiny thing has been accomplished and it's just the nuts that are left doing that.

LoungeMachine
06-05-2006, 11:56 PM
There are some moderate Cons in here with half a brain....

But they're usually dragged down by the fucking nutjobs in here .


Guilt by ASSociation, if you will. ;)

Seshmeister
06-05-2006, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by sadaist
The exact same way that you know he wasn't.

I have no fucking idea if he was or wasn't and noone else will ever know which is entirely my fucking point and why for hundreds of years now we have had shit like laws and due process.

You can sue MacDonalds because your coffee was too hot but it's fine to torture and kill people without any recourse because maybe they were just in the wrong place at the wrong time?

ELVIS
06-06-2006, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
ELVIS is entirely different from the guy who was beaten to death by the US government because he was found guilty of a crime in a court of law a couple of times yet he feels that now he has a place in heaven by being 'born again', so it's ok for people who aren't to be killed without that luxury.


Cheers!

:gulp:

I don't see how or why you draw that conclusion or why you would interject such a longwinded, imaginary sentence into this thread...


Maybe too many gulps...


:gulp:

sadaist
06-06-2006, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by Seshmeister
I have no fucking idea if he was or wasn't and noone else will ever know which is entirely my fucking point and why for hundreds of years now we have had shit like laws and due process.


Ah, but just because you and I don't know, doesn't exactly mean that someone doesn't know.

Satan
06-06-2006, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by sadaist
Ah, but just because you and I don't know, doesn't exactly mean that someone doesn't know.

I know. Because I'm the Devil :cool:

BigBadBrian
06-06-2006, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
I've been banging that drum for over a year in here.

And in turn have been called the most vile names by so-called "Christians" in here.

A religious hypocrite is a religious hypocrite, regardless of where they pray. :cool:

Many pray/prey right here

Our religion frightens you.

You're not comfortable with your own beliefs, so in order to justify your own inadequacy, you feel the need to mock others.

Your a pitiful little whelp of a human being.

Does it make you feel uncomfortable that we believe you are going to spend an eternity of suffering? I think that's the bottom line...you're uncomfortable with what we believe because it scares you.

Christians are not perfect...that's why they go to church. That's the entire cornerstone of our faith....that only God is perfect.

You continually mock Christians and say what they should or should not believe and what they should or should not do. It's rather amusing in a way....you have NO clue about Christianity or what Christians should believe.

:gulp:

LoungeMachine
06-06-2006, 08:43 AM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Our religion frightens you.

You're not comfortable with your own beliefs, so in order to justify your own inadequacy, you feel the need to mock others.

Your a pitiful little whelp of a human being.

Does it make you feel uncomfortable that we believe you are going to spend an eternity of suffering? I think that's the bottom line...you're uncomfortable with what we believe because it scares you.

Christians are not perfect...that's why they go to church. That's the entire cornerstone of our faith....that only God is perfect.

You continually mock Christians and say what they should or should not believe and what they should or should not do. It's rather amusing in a way....you have NO clue about Christianity or what Christians should believe.

:gulp:


This little retort is chock full of LIES it's not even funny.:rolleyes:

NOTHING about you scares me, Brie. And you don't know ANYTHING about my relationships with Christian friends, many of whom find you a raging hypocrite. [those that have read this forum]


You have become the Court Jester of the Right in here, and it fits you.

:cool:

Seshmeister
06-06-2006, 09:31 AM
Originally posted by sadaist
Ah, but just because you and I don't know, doesn't exactly mean that someone doesn't know.

Good approach then?

LoungeMachine
06-06-2006, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by sadaist
Ah, but just because you and I don't know, doesn't exactly mean that someone doesn't know.


How Rumsfeldian....



Memorable Quotes by Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld

"I would not say that the future is necessarily less predictable than the past. I think the past was not predictable when it started."

"We do know of certain knowledge that he [Osama Bin Laden] is either in Afghanistan, or in some other country, or dead."

"We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." –on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction

"Death has a tendency to encourage a depressing view of war."

"Freedom's untidy, and free people are free to make mistakes and commit crimes and do bad things." –on looting in Iraq after the U.S. invasion, adding "stuff happens"

"As you know, you go to war with the army you have, not the army you might want or wish to have at a later time."

"I am not going to give you a number for it because it's not my business to do intelligent work." -asked to estimate the number of Iraqi insurgents while testifying before Congress

"I believe what I said yesterday.

I don't know what I said, but I know what I think, and, well, I assume it's what I said."

"Reports that say that something hasn't happened are always interesting to me, because as we know, there are known knowns; there are things we know we know. We also know there are known unknowns; that is to say we know there are some things we do not know. But there are also unknown unknowns -- the ones we don't know we don't know."

"If I said yes, that would then suggest that that might be the only place where it might be done which would not be accurate, necessarily accurate. It might also not be inaccurate, but I'm disinclined to mislead anyone."

"There's another way to phrase that and that is that the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. It is basically saying the same thing in a different way. Simply because you do not have evidence that something does exist does not mean that you have evidence that it doesn't exist." -on Iraq's weapons of mass destruction

"Well, um, you know, something's neither good nor bad but thinking makes it so, I suppose, as Shakespeare said."

"Secretary Powell and I agree on every single issue that has ever been before this administration except for those instances where Colin's still learning."

"Learn to say 'I don't know.' If used when appropriate, it will be often."

"I don't know what the facts are but somebody's certainly going to sit down with him and find out what he knows that they may not know, and make sure he knows what they know that he may not know."

"I'm not into this detail stuff. I'm more concepty."

"I don't do quagmires."

"I don't do diplomacy."

"I don't do foreign policy."

"I don't do predictions."

"I don't do numbers."

"I don't do book reviews."

"Now, settle down, settle down. Hell, I'm an old man, it's early in the morning and I'm gathering my thoughts here."

"If I know the answer I'll tell you the answer, and if I don't, I'll just respond, cleverly."

sadaist
06-06-2006, 03:28 PM
How Rumsfeldian?

So if you don't know something as fact, and neither do I, then nobody does? That's just ignorant. Maybe you've read articles that lead you to believe one way or another on a subject. But unless we were actually there in the trenches, there has to be some room for doubt. Things presented to us as facts can be manipulated.

You forgot to close with LMAO

bobgnote
06-06-2006, 04:59 PM
Catholic shitheads ran wild.

BROWN Catholic shitheads ran hella wild.

The sat on the fence, trying to make a dollar out of fifteen fucking CENTS. They don't have us convinced.

I have been meeting a lot of shitheads, who think they can get hard and move the jingo-thingo. I predict FIGHTS.

The Army is standing, brackishly soggy, stinking before gangrene. Illegally funded, illegally interested, the US and corporations are gonna get SUED. The military geeks are acting like log cabin fags, all Blair-Bush queers, sucking the orange cheese off each others' dicks and moving to parade for different sex marriage as an AMENDMENT.

What hypocritical, fuckass queers, in the goddam road, all at once!