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POJO_Risin
08-12-2006, 07:20 PM
Okay, I've held onto this long enough.

About 4 months ago, one of the groomsmen in my wedding, and friend since I remember standing up to piss, was killed in Iraq. Still a fantastic friend when he died, and someone I e-mailed with multiple times a month while he was there.

Not looking for any sorry for your loss bullshit. It's life, and he was a soldier, but his wife gave me some of his shit that he had over there with him...and in it was a letter that he wrote to me in case he died (he wrote a few of them to his family and close friends). One of the great things about Bobby is that he never...ever commented on the war. He joined the Army for very specific reasons. He graduated from college the same time as I did, and immediately signed on for grad school...physical therapy. One thing he and I always talked about was how we didn't sign up for Desert Storm, like our friend Donny...and we should have.

I joined the business world after grad school...he joined the Army...and loved it. He bugged the shit out of me to join...and I almost did, but was working a good job...making good money...and coaching JV basketball and baseball...

so I didn't...

It was great when I moved where I am today...he was at Bragg...I was 30 minutes away from him...first time in many years that we were neighbors again.

Anyways...

his wife gave me a few of his things that he said he wanted me to have. He gave me his 357 that his Dad had given him (only as a caretaker for his son...who's 2), a bunch of other personal shit...and that note...

and the only thing I'm going to comment on here is this...

Most of you know which political side I'm on...or assume that you do...so take this for what it's worth...and you'll immediately know why I almost didn't post it...

but what the fuck...if you aren't able to change your beliefs as you learn...then what the fuck is the point...

I'm going to quote...

"I joined the Army 15 years ago because I felt that the United States has a right to defend other countries against those that feel the need to take away their freedoms. In this way, the United States shows the world that freedom deserves defending. We defended Kuwait all those years ago from a maniac. We didn't join, and we spent many cold beers talking about a mistake that we made. The funny thing is that the one thing that always left us in a hazy shade of gray was the fact that Kuwait WASN'T the United States, and we weren't defending our country. I'm about to serve my second tour of Iraq now, and after all those years of wondering, I now think I understand our fatal flaw, and our fatal understanding of our discussions, and how I now think that you made the right move, and I perhaps didn't. We both share a love of this country. We both would defend her colors no matter what....9/11...That was why I joined this Army. I joined this Army to defend her borders, to hunt down the people that don't respect the freedom that we represent. To protect the land that our fathers helped build.

Kuwait? They were opressed by another leader, and that would have effected our borders, I'm sure of that. Afghanistan? Osama Bin Laden, Al Queida, we should stay there, and in Pakistan, until the job is done. Of that, I'm sure of. Iraq? To get the guy that opressed so many all those years ago, and ever since? I'm sure of that. But now? We sit here day after day, policing people that don't want us here. Walking down the street could be the end. You look at the faces of the Iraqi people, and most are staring at you with hatred or fear. Every so often you'll catch a look that really scares you in the crowd, and chances are, that person will end up dead, and taking out a few friends as well. Every so often, you'll see that face, of a kid, who wants to live like we did as kids, and you'll almost think we are doing the right thing.

Then you hear an explosion of some religious zealout (or worse, a terrorist pretending to be a religious zealout) that more than likely killed many locals, and many soldiers. Then you think about your family and your friends at home, sitting at McDonalds, riding down the street in their cars listening to their CD players, laying naked in their pools out back, BBQing, listening to a little AC/DC or Van Halen. You realize that most of the people at home will never, ever be effected by what we are doing right now. Sure, we got rid of Saddam, and I am convinced we needed to to bookend the war 16 years ago. But if you ever come here, you quickly realize that freedom to these people and freedom to us are very different things. You realize that freedom for one Iraqi, and freedom to another are very different things. We won't change it, we will only make it worse.

Every day, you see more and more of those faces that scare you. Every day, you almost FEEL the world hating us a little more.

This isn't the United States' war anymore. It ended a couple of years ago. Right now, there are so many of us that continue to serve because of an oath, but continue to doubt why we are here. If I survive this war, I will retire at my nearest opportunity. You won't see this letter, but I'm sure, at some point, a few years from now in your backyard, after about 10 beers and whatever else we can find, you'll hear my thoughts, and how they've changed. You may disagree, and I accept that. It's the US, and that's why I served, to allow us all to have opinions that we can speak out loud.

I just wish that we were defending those right now. Unfortunately, we aren't."


There was a lot more than that in the letter, but some of it far more personal, and far more...well...it won't make it in here.

He was a good guy, and a fantastic soldier, father, friend.

And when it was all said and done...well...whatever...

feel free to discuss...

Sarge's Little Helper
08-12-2006, 07:20 PM
God Bless America

m_dixon1984
08-12-2006, 08:04 PM
Always interesting to hear the words of someone at the front lines. I know you didn't want to hear it, Pojo, but I am sorry for your loss.

Your friend's words echo those of so many soldiers who have served in extended campaigns, not to mention the people they're fighting for. There's very little doubt in my mind that many on both sides have stopped believing in the reasons for America's presence/occupation in/of Iraq. He certainly has put into words the way I feel about the Iraq situation. For a soldier to stop believing must be extremely difficult since he's the one being asked to sacrifice so much.

My admiration for those that serve their country has once again been re-affirmed.

Thanks for the post.

M

POJO_Risin
08-12-2006, 08:14 PM
I don't for a second think that he stopped BELIEVING in serving his country...

I absolutely believe that he stopped believing that WE stopped serving our country...

He knew what he signed up for...trust me...

but there was a lot of that letter that left out how leading up to his second tour was much more beaurocratic...

there was a bunch more to it than that...

but like I said...it's interesting, and doesn't necesarily fit the picture many of us have/had...

thome
08-12-2006, 08:28 PM
Good friends are hard to come buy and losing one is a drag.

I still have most of mine and feel blessed. Whether or not his feelings
on the reasons for war were contemplated, there is one truth, there will
always be wars and they are of little use at times, but will always be.

People will be brought together to fight -for rights- and -for oppression- and the ones who opose the fighting will fight also, it's just the part of life that will always be.

Being a soldier is a wierd experience, you don't want to be there but
you also want the best training possible in order to complete the destruction of the enemy.

I do not know if my words help or hurt.

I do not promote war, i do know that it is and will be,wrong.Even when it's the rite thing to do.
The last statement fails to touch on the fact that war is also needed.
War is the curse of life, a very important part of the human experience.

Don't ask me why .I do know, that it's here to stay.

Thanks for talkin about your friend.

POJO_Risin
08-12-2006, 08:43 PM
When it's all said and done...there aren't really words that help or hurt. When it's all said and done...it's a friend that died...you deal with it the same way you deal with any loved one that has died.

The whole point of this thread was to perhaps give some insight into what it's like to be out there, a firm, tried but true 15 year vet who loves this country, and who at one point, realized that things weren't the way he pictured it.

I don't dare to dream to understand what it's like out there every day. You ponder it, feel that you get it, but when it's all said and done, you can't have a clue what it must be like to not have the slightest idea when your next step might be your last.

I know it's just one opinion among many, and that's alright by me...but it does shape your opinion, no matter what that opinion has been over the past several elections.

EAch person has experiences that shape their beliefs, and that letter is certainly helping mine.

When it's all said and done, those of us that have led our lives according to what "administrators" and media outlets have served to let us know, probably have been doing this country a great dis-service.

My point?

Talk to the people that actually have a stake, and when I say stake, that being their lives and livelihoods into the decisions that are being made.

Maybe then, the decisions we make every year come election time won't be the wistful musings of liars...

The_KiD
08-12-2006, 09:12 PM
What a heartfelt post.. It really makes you think about things.

Cheers to your friend and the numerous others that serve our country..


KiD

jhale667
08-12-2006, 09:14 PM
My condolences, POJO. :( Your friend's letter is serious food for thought, however. Excellent post.

POJO_Risin
08-12-2006, 09:15 PM
Well, it wasn't my post really.

It just surprises me a bit that there aren't more posts like it...

some of us here must have friends that serve...

of course, Bob all but admitted that he wouldn't have said anything unless he was dead...

or drunk...

I get that.

jhale667
08-12-2006, 09:23 PM
Actually, my best friend (who's been there for the Gulf War AND this time) has said similar things...he says a lot of people want them out, but he fears what will happen if we cut and run there before some sort of stability is established. But is that even possible, I sometimes wonder.

m_dixon1984
08-12-2006, 09:25 PM
I think I was misunderstood...I wasn't trying to say your friend stopped believing in serving his country, and I'm very sorry you read it that way (I tried very hard not say anything insulting about your friend). In fact, that's what I admire about all servicemen and his words in no way diminished that. My point was that most, at the start of a campaign, also believe in the reasons given by their leaders of the need for military action. I got the distinct impression that your friend had seen some flaws in America's current reasons for being in Iraq and possibly, more importantly, he'd stopped believing that the Iraqi people were thankful for his being there (a claim made more than once by the American military propaganda machine). Many Vietnam veterans have written very similar sentiments after serving during that war. My point was that battle often makes sense in the early going but becomes more difficult for reasonable people to come to terms with as it progresses seamingly without end; how it must be so much more difficult for those serving at the front lines when their presence is so obviously unwanted.

I believe in serving my country and I trust that my country puts servicemen in danger ONLY when there is very good reason. When the reasons become less clear I begin to doubt having the lives of so many courageous and loyal people in danger. Your friend's unquestionable commitment and loyalty to his country was never in doubt by me. If you think I read more into his words than I should have - I apologize.

M

Steve Savicki
08-12-2006, 09:32 PM
Originally posted by m_dixon1984
I know you didn't want to hear it, Pojo, but I am sorry for your loss.
I'm at loss for words as well, but sorry for your loss.
It must be hard because he sounds like a childhood friend or at least an old-timer.

Gives us a vision of what Sarge's been through or at least what it's like in Iraq and we're thankful he's still with us.

Satan
08-12-2006, 10:18 PM
Originally posted by Sarge's Little Helper
God Bless America

And God DAMN those in power who have willingly betrayed those who were called to serve their country.

And that's all a Devil really has to say about that. http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/images/smiley_evilFrown.gif

LoungeMachine
08-13-2006, 01:46 AM
Many of us just want to know why this man had to die.


If it was to protect us, we weren't being threatened by any Iraqis when we invaded.

If it was to spread freedom and democracy, I have to ask you.....can that really be accomplished at the end of a gun?

If it was for a greater good, then by all means somebody, anybody....step up to the mike and let it be known.


I'm sorry. But this man, and many before him did NOT have to die now, for this.


It's wrong.

Hardrock69
08-13-2006, 01:58 AM
Chimpy was never interested in "defending OUR freedom". It is all just a scam like the Vietnam conflict.

I can understand "protecting our interests abroad", if it actually does serve our interests.

But in this case, our country has no standing armies attempting to invade us.

No masses along our border.

We do not have to worry about anyone trying to attack us.

Oh, except for the usual Islamic extremists.

Those guys are the enemy of the WORLD!

I think we are long overdue to withdraw.

We took out Saddamite, they set up their government.

Let them have their civil wars and kill each other off.

Let the other nations in that neck of the woods solve their problems. Or (ha) get the UN to do something about it.

Chimpy and his fucking cast of scum are only interested in making themselves and their buddies richer, and they only want more complete power and control over this planet.

Freedom has nothing to do with the Iraq war.

VAN HLN CA
08-13-2006, 02:20 AM
Lump in throat...heavy.

My gut has said our tropps need to have been home for a year.

We have enough going on in our Homeland to be treading water there.

Good people are so few that hearing a man almost predict his fate in realization that we're spinning wheels is the hypocrisy of fighting for an undefined agenda....bring them home. 2 years is too long!

VAN HLN CA
08-13-2006, 02:23 AM
Heard there is a 2 year exit plan. Should be two months.

POJO_Risin
08-13-2006, 07:17 PM
Well...

I didn't misunderstand what you wrote...just didn't want anyone else too...

ELVIS
08-13-2006, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by POJO in honor of a proud Soldier
"I joined the Army 15 years ago because I felt that the United States has a right to defend other countries against those that feel the need to take away their freedoms. In this way, the United States shows the world that freedom deserves defending.


I'd like to hear how some of you feel about the above quote...


:elvis:

Satan
08-14-2006, 12:06 AM
Originally posted by ELVIS
I'd like to hear how some of you feel about the above quote...


:elvis:

Nothing wrong with the quote. But reality is that there has been no military threat to the United States of America since 1945, aside from the Cold War with the Soviet Union.

The military industrial complex, the BCE, and others who profit from the war machine tell BOLDFACE GODDAMNED LIES to the men and women of the United States Military in order to get them to believe that some little pissant country on the other side of the fucking planet is somehow a "threat" to this nation.

Don't think it's possible to decieve so many people?

Just recently it was published that some 60% of active duty military actually believed that Saddam Hussein was involved in 9-11-01. Not because the whore media implied so. Because someone pounded that lie into their heads. Just like lies about Korea, Vietnam, and every other war for profit of the last 50 years which had NOTHING to do with the United States of America.

Where does it end? Where do the lies stop? Who stops the LIARS??

MERRYKISSMASS2U
08-14-2006, 12:08 AM
Satan, you ARE the king of liars.

Satan
08-14-2006, 12:10 AM
Originally posted by MERRYKISSMASS2U
Satan, you ARE the king of liars.

A bad reputation, and one much undeserved :(

But this really isn't the place for that discussion.

ELVIS
08-14-2006, 12:15 AM
You didn't even comment on the quote...

It's about defending freedom, both here and abroad...

It doesn't require a direct threat to the US...

Dan
08-14-2006, 12:21 AM
POJO,Sorry about your loss.Can I be rude and ask you could share a story or two what you guys got up to when you got together?

ELVIS
08-14-2006, 12:34 AM
Originally posted by Dan
POJO,Sorry about your loss.Can I be rude and ask you could share a story or two what you guys got up to when you got together?


Translation:


POJO, Sorry about your loss. At the risk of being rude, I'd like to ask weather or not you could possibly share a story or two that would shed some insight into what you guys were like when you got together.


:elvis:

Satan
08-14-2006, 12:53 AM
Originally posted by ELVIS
You didn't even comment on the quote...

It's about defending freedom, both here and abroad...

It doesn't require a direct threat to the US...

It's not the responsibility of the United States to police the world, and certainly not the right of the United States to fuck around in parts of the globe where we don't have a fucking clue about their culture - which is how we got in this fucking bullshit quagmire of the moment, as well as that other quagmire 35 years ago.

Let the international bodies (UN, NATO, whatever) police the world. Ideally, the "peacekeeping" troops for such a force should come from as close to the affected country as humanly possible, because they DO have some understanding of the people they're dealing with.

Dan
08-14-2006, 12:59 AM
Originally posted by ELVIS
Translation:


POJO, Sorry about your loss. At the risk of being rude, I'd like to ask weather or not you could possibly share a story or two that would shed some insight into what you guys were like when you got together.


:elvis:

First of all I don't need you to Translate anything for me.

O.K.?

LoungeMachine
08-14-2006, 11:43 AM
Originally posted by ELVIS
Translation:


POJO, Sorry about your loss. At the risk of being rude, I'd like to ask weather or not you could possibly share a story or two that would shed some insight into what you guys were like when you got together.


:elvis:

Translation:

....whether.......

"weather" is that stuff you see outside when you're in here castigating people over shit like this.:rolleyes:

Of course, you are simply a "wether", ELVIS


Dan was simply asking a sincere question of Pojo, and you had to turn it into a typical E-attack.

So next time you bitch and moan about the sniping that goes on in here, now that you're no longer a mod in this forum, just REMEMBER who [you, dumbass] went off-subject in this thread, and tried to turn it into one of your bitch-fests.

:cool:

LoungeMachine
08-14-2006, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Dan
First of all I don't need you to Translate anything for me.

O.K.?


Ignore him Dan.

He's a bitter cunt.:cool:

Guitar Shark
08-14-2006, 12:16 PM
Dudes, could you keep the sniping out of this particular thread? Maybe?

Thanks for sharing this POJO... always interesting to see examples of how a person's thinking can change over time with changing circumstances.

Dan
08-14-2006, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Dudes, could you keep the sniping out of this particular thread? Maybe?

Thanks for sharing this POJO... always interesting to see examples of how a person's thinking can change over time with changing circumstances.

I Agree G.S.

LoungeMachine
08-14-2006, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Guitar Shark
Dudes, could you keep the sniping out of this particular thread? Maybe?



Gee, ya think maybe that was my point?

EAT MY ASSHOLE
08-15-2006, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Translation:

....whether.......

"weather" is that stuff you see outside when you're in here castigating people over shit like this.:rolleyes:

Of course, you are simply a "wether", ELVIS


Dan was simply asking a sincere question of Pojo, and you had to turn it into a typical E-attack.

So next time you bitch and moan about the sniping that goes on in here, now that you're no longer a mod in this forum, just REMEMBER who [you, dumbass] went off-subject in this thread, and tried to turn it into one of your bitch-fests.

:cool:


...speaking of e-attacks...

POJO_Risin
08-15-2006, 11:37 PM
I could comment on the quote that Elvis brought up...but I'm not going to do it here...

I could comment on directions of this thread...but I'm not going to do it here.

You want to start a thread with that quote...I'll gladly throw you a few words about what I think about it...but again...not here...

Dan...as for a couple of stories about me and RC...Bobby...

I'll throw a couple down in the next week or so...

I'm not one to throw out the stories...but I'll give you a couple that describe him a bit...

the least I could do...

and fuck it...to clarify a point...and I'm not speaking for him...I'm not his mouthpiece...but will only tell you what I know...from talking with him about a million times over the past 30-odd years...

He had absolutely no trepidation about joining the Army and defending our allies against people that tried to opress them...

don't assume a comment made to me...after a million discussions...focuses a point one way or the other. I'm not going to sit here for days talking about what steered him...and I could...

but frankly...this forum...or any internet forum...isn't the place for his offense or defense of any stance.

fuck it...I'm getting irritated...

diamondD
08-16-2006, 05:38 AM
Sorry for you loss POJO. I lost a good friend of mine last Feb that I didn't have to lose, but under different circumstances. It takes a long time for the frustration to ease, but it still kicks me in the gut every now and then.

diamondD
08-16-2006, 05:40 AM
**Edit** Never mind, not worth it and it won't sink in anyway...