JFK conspiracy revisited

[BigBadBrian]

It's that time of year.

Saw my first documentary (this year) on the assassination today.

It's always fun to discuss this one. I definitely believe more than one shooter was involved.

Who did it?

Castro?

The mob?

The BCE?

[LoungeMachine]

Too weird.

I just stumbled across a copy of JFK The Case For Conspiracy on DVD

I thought I'd seen everything out there, but this had footage never before seen of the parade route, grassy knoll, etc....

Can even see Zapruder in a shot.

Excellent autopsy data as well.


No one will ever convince me Oswald was a lone shooter.

As to the combinations of characters that could have pulled this off.......well.....I don't rule any of it out.

This Bob Groden guy seems to have some good shit.

Of course Oliver Stone endorses him, which is a red flag to some of you nudniks.


Regardless, check it out.


And if anyone has other sources, please post them. I've read and studied just about every major book on the subject. I'd love links to anything new.

[Little Texan]

Check out this website. (http://www.jfkmurdersolved.com/index1.htm) I don't know if anything on there is legit, but it is interesting reading, nonetheless, and even has the BCE angle in there for FORD. :D Just click on George Bush in the left column for the BCE angle of the JFK conspiracy.

[Coyote]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
It's that time of year.

Saw my first documentary (this year) on the assassination today.

It's always fun to discuss this one. I definitely believe more than one shooter was involved.

Who did it?

Castro?

The mob?

The BCE?

Anybody who was making a profit from 'Nam.

[FORD]

This video (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-9137354720737304741&q=jfk) makes a great case for the conspiracy surrounding JFK's murder.

Set some time aside though, because this is a 90 minute video and it's Google so it's not easy to bookmark and start later.

But it IS worth watching if you have the time ("Lost" isn't on this week!)

[FORD]

Originally posted by Coyote
Anybody who was making a profit from 'Nam.

That would be the BCE. Between their defense contractor friends making money on the war, and the CIA making "under the table" money on drug imports through the region

(Google "Golden Triangle CIA" )

[Coyote]

Originally posted by FORD
That would be the BCE. Between their defense contractor friends making money on the war, and the CIA making "under the table" money on drug imports through the region

(Google "Golden Triangle" )

Seen it.

[Hardrock69]

One thing is certain:

JFK had pissed off EVERYONE you do NOT want to piss off.

He had the Vietnamese President and his brother-in-law assassinated.

The brother-in-law was like, head of the South Vietnamese military or some bullshit.

And he used his troops to export heroin from the Golden Triangle around Burma & Thailand.

When JFK took them out, that killed the heroin supply.

Which coincidentally was being shipped straight to Marseilles, where it was then shipped to New York.

Ever see the the Gene Hackman film "French Connection"? As everyone knows the film was based on a true story.

If I recall, Popeye Doyle was repeatedly warned not to pursue the case.

What he had no way of knowing was that the French Government were involved in the smuggling operation, and it was the same operation that had been temporarily fucked up by JFK in 1963.

But I digress.

Let's see.....so the French Mob, and the Sicilian Mob, and the NEW YORK Mob were all pissed off at JFK.

Let us pursue this a few steps further. Here is a prior case where the Mob was pissed off at JFK.

He got elected by a slim margin in 1960. The votes from Chicago were the deciding factor. They were delivered as a favor to Kennedy, in a deal brokered by Peter Lawford, Frank Sinatra, and Sam Giancana.

So what happens after he is elected? He names his kid brother Attorney General, and he promptly turns on the Mob and begins to prosecute them heavily.

Chicago Mob is pissed off at him a year or two before the Heroin supply problems happened.


Okay, so much for our criminal brethren.....on to politics....

Castro would have loved it if JFK was taken out.

Kruschev probably would not have minded, but did not EVEN want to risk something like that, as if Russia were found to be complicit, it would be a truly scary situation.

Ok...let's see what else.

JFK decides in 1962-63 to fire the head of the CIA, and get rid of a lot of other peeps in cushy positions within the intelligence community.

Oh and he pissed off J.EDGAR HOOVER! :eek:


Ok and then he pissed off the Military Industrial Complex, as he had signed a Presidential Directive that would begin bringing our boys home from Vietnam by Christams of that year, to be completed within the following couple of years or so. This had the potential of removing trillions of dollars from the pockets of those involved. And they are FIERCELY protective of their cash flow.

And this is tied DIRECTLY to the people you REALLY do not want to piss off: The Bankers.

Kennedy was going to tie the dollar back to the silver standard, and was going to issue a directive that the U.S. Government was going to be the only entity legally allowed to print money.

The Federal Reserve Bank is not a "Government-owned/operated" institution. It is a private bank, owned by some of the wealthiest banking dynasties on the planet.

JFK was going to cut them off at the knees, making it illegal for THEM to issue currency.


Seriously, I am surprised he did not get his brain air-conditioned that much sooner.

But the directives to order our troops home, as well as the plans to take the Federal Reserve bank out of America's Financial Loop all occurred in the last few months of his life. He mighta stayed alive awhile longer if he did not make those decisions, but once he started going on like that in the Summer of '63, the writing was on the tombstone.

As for EXACTLY whodunnit, it is worthless to even consider who the shooter was.


I know who did it.

The Powers That Be.

That is all anyone needs to know.

JFK was doing what was RIGHT.

Stopping the war.

Trying to make the Civil Rights thing happen.

Trying to improve the economy, instead of tying the dollar to thin air, which was resulting in runaway inflation.

That is why he died.

NO PRESIDENT will be allowed to do what is right. Or what is best for the American People. OR what is best for the world.

the monkey, for example, is under orders. And his daddy is pulling his strings from behind the scenes.

http://www.topplebush.com/humor/bush_puppet.jpg

Enuff of my lecturing. Everything you want to know is available through the Almighty Father, Google Be Thy Name....
:D

[Hardrock69]

Try these "sources" Lounge. Though you may have read the first one:

JFK, The CIA, Vietnam,
And The Plot To Assassinate John F. Kennedy by Col. J. Fletcher Prouty (Ret.)

http://www.prouty.org/saigon.html

His official website has MUCH more info. THIS is the guy who knew what was going on.

Col. Prouty spent 9 of his 23 year military career in the Pentagon (1955-1964): 2 years with the Secretary of Defense, 2 years with the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and 5 years with Headquarters, U.S. Air Force. In 1955 he was appointed the first "Focal Point" officer between the CIA and the Air Force for Clandestine Operations per National Security Council Directive 5412. He was Briefing Officer for the Secretary of Defense (1960-1961), and for the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff.

At times he would be called to meet with Allen Dulles and John Foster Dulles at their home on highly classified business. He was assigned to attend MKULTRA meetings. In this capacity Col. Prouty would be at the nerve center of the Military-Industrial Complex at a time unequalled in American History. He has written on these subjects, about the JFK assassination, the Cold War period, and Vietnamese warfare, and the existence of a "Secret Team". He backs up his his work with seldom seen or mentioned official documents - some never before released.

Fletcher Prouty offers a rare glimpse of the "Power Elite" as described by Buckminster Fuller, or "The High Cabal" as Winston Churchill refered to them; and how they really operate. Those who have not been in a position to witness events such as these from the inside would not understand how invisible but ultimately effective they and their power structures are.


http://www.prouty.org/


Here are a couple of more recent books:

Blood Money & Power: How LBJ Killed JFK

http://www.amazon.com/Blood-Money-Power-Killed-J-F-K/dp/0963784625

The author was an attorney with LBJ's Law firm from 1961-1971 or so, looking after LBJ's interests (which included keeping him from being indicted for conspiracy to commit murder while Vice President). You think we live in a Democracy?

Read this and you will realize how unreal that notion is.


"Triangle Of Death - The Shocking Truth About the Role of South Vietnam and the French Mafia in the Assassination of JFK"

http://www.amazon.com/Triangle-Death-Shocking-Vietnam-Assassination/dp/0785261532

Book Description
Here are the facts: a) President John F. Kennedy supported the coup d'etat that resulted in the assassination of Diem; b) twenty-one days later, Kennedy was assassinated; c) forty-eight hours after JFK's murder, the FBI deported a French assassin-a fact that was not reported at the time, even to the Warren Commission; d) this deportation order came from the Office of the Attorney General, Robert F. Kennedy.Bradley O'Leary and L.E. Seymour present a convincing argument that implicates not Lee Harvey Oswald, but rather a conglomerate of conspirators, in the death of beloved President Kennedy. Using actual CIA documents, interviews, and evidence, Triangle of Death will alter everything you thought you knew about John F. Kennedy's death.



I myself really am not concerned with all of the above anymore.

There is nothing I can do to change things, and being just yer average joe, there is now way I would want to upset anyone with the kind of power these people have.

Funny, if you wind up being a "friend" or "associate" of the President, you have a good chance of winding up dead under mysterious circumstances.

No thanks.

I can die quite nicely on my own....of old age.

:D

[LoungeMachine]

I know all about Col. Prouty.
:cool:



Thanks for the others.

[Terry]

Groden and Prouty have both made nice little chunks of change for themselves over the years rehashing JFK assassination conspiracy theories.

Problem with all these theories is that when it comes to presenting hard evidence to back them up, all of them fall short of the mark. Of course, one can say that is the reason why it WAS a conspiracy; because the cover-up was so good...

Best one I read about was in a book called Mortal Error, where according to the author Oswald fired two shots. One missed the car and presumably wounded Teague standing down by the underpass. The other one hit Kennedy in the throat, passed through and did the whole 'magic bullet' bit. But the head shot was actually fired by an overzealous Secret Serviceman in the car behind JFKs limo, and he squeezed off a frangible round as a reflex to hearing Oswald fire. Hence the reason for the cover-up: the SS was protecting their own from that 'Mortal Error'. Combine this with Best Evidence, where JFKs body was snuck off Air Force One before it left Dallas, altered post-mortem so it appeared all the shots came from the rear, then snuck into DC on a different plane while the casket everyone was bringing to the Naval Hospital was really empty...kind of a stretch, no?

Probably one of the best books I've read was Crossfire: The Plot To Kill Kennedy, by Jim Marrs. But this should be read in conjunction with Conspiracy of One, by Jim Moore. And the Men That Killed Kennedy is probably the best documentary I've seen on it to date.

At this point, I think it's just as likely that it was Oswald as it was Corsican mob shooters from the Grassy Knoll, Dal Tex building, the slightly opened sewer main on Elm, etc.

[knuckleboner]

eh, i believe it was oswald.

while it's tough, i'm fairly certain it's been established that it is theoretically possible to get off the requisite number of shots.

and there are so many possible theories as to what actually happened; it's 100% certain that at a minimum, the vast majority are wrong.

that, and given the lack of compelling evidence on any one theory, i'll go with oswald as the lone nut.

though, if my belief in the government's involvement in 9/11 is a 1 on a scale of 1 to conspiracy, i'd probably put the lone gunman at more like a 5 or so...

[Coyote]

Originally posted by FORD
That would be the BCE. Between their defense contractor friends making money on the war, and the CIA making "under the table" money on drug imports through the region

'tis true. (http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/cgi-bin/blogs/voices.php/2006/10/10/dynasty_of_death_part_2)

[Little Texan]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
eh, i believe it was oswald.

while it's tough, i'm fairly certain it's been established that it is theoretically possible to get off the requisite number of shots.

[/i]

I believe that Oswald did fire some shots at Kennedy, and hit him with one of them, but he did not fire the fatal shot. That shot came from the grassy knoll. If you shoot someone from behind, their head is not going to be thrown backwards as Kennedy's was during the fatal shot to the head. It could have only come from the front. Oswald was involved, no doubt, but he was a small part of a much larger conspiracy.

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Little Texan
If you shoot someone from behind, their head is not going to be thrown backwards as Kennedy's was during the fatal shot to the head. It could have only come from the front.

i don't believe that's quite true. i'm pretty sure that a bullet that enters cleanly can cause an explosive exit wound causing a push backwards.


any of you military guys out there know enough ballistics to confirm?

[Guitar Shark]

Let's test that theory on Savicki.

[DrMaddVibe]

My money is this was a mob hit.

Nobody in the government could keep this a secret. Hell, they have 2 official versions of what did happen! The mere fact that its been this long and still no evidence released leads me to say it was the mob. Nobody else is that damn through. By killing off the hitmen with a hitman and killing him with another hitman you've removed all traces to the crime and zipped all the lips you'd need to zip. That and the fact that they've silenced Bobby when he ran and it was the Kennedy double cross that did them in.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Little Texan
I believe that Oswald did fire some shots at Kennedy, and hit him with one of them, but he did not fire the fatal shot. That shot came from the grassy knoll. If you shoot someone from behind, their head is not going to be thrown backwards as Kennedy's was during the fatal shot to the head. It could have only come from the front. Oswald was involved, no doubt, but he was a small part of a much larger conspiracy.

COMPLETELY WRONG!

I used to think that too until very recently.

It's just not the case. When a bullet hits the head it moves towards the shooter not, as you would expect backwards.

This is because the force of the brain matter exploding out of the exit wound.

Counter intuitive but a documented forensic fact.

Thing is that someone must have told Oliver Stone that during all his research for his movie yet he just ignored them and made the head going back a central premise of his film.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[FORD]

AssVibe, what the fuck kinda crazy code do you have in your signature? It's eating posts that come after yours.

[Seshmeister]

Bizarre!

[LoungeMachine]

His sig has been looking all funky lately too.

The reply box appears scrunched to the right.

The far right LMAO

???????

[Seshmeister]

He must be stopped!

[DrMaddVibe]

W00t!!!

[Nickdfresh]

I think it was this guy:

http://adipocere.homestead.com/files/lhoskull2.jpg

[Hardrock69]

I remember last year there was almost nothing in the media about the JFK extraction, while in previous years there was always a buncha stories, etc. in the newspapers, etc. around 11/22.

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by DrMaddVibe
My money is this was a mob hit.

Nobody in the government could keep this a secret. Hell, they have 2 official versions of what did happen! The mere fact that its been this long and still no evidence released leads me to say it was the mob. Nobody else is that damn through. By killing off the hitmen with a hitman and killing him with another hitman you've removed all traces to the crime and zipped all the lips you'd need to zip. That and the fact that they've silenced Bobby when he ran and it was the Kennedy double cross that did them in.


Uhhh...and you say they cannot keep a secret?

The U.S. Government is way beyond the Mob in it's capabilities.

The Mob is NOT going to be able to take the Presidential car, clean it up inside and out, then take it out into the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and dump it in 12,000 feet of water. The Mob is not going to have generals and admirals crowding the autopsy room, telling the medical examiner what he can and cannot enter into his report. The Mob cannot release world-wide press reports claiming Lee Harvey Oswald was the suspect, with a complete detailed biography and everything before he was even charged with anything....

I mean, sure, they may have used Mob-connected assassins to do the job itself, but they were nothing more than literal "hired guns".

My lengthy post above shows that there were way more people involved in the planning, execution and cover-up than just the Mob.

And of course there were MANY more people who were not active participants in the operation who were VERY glad it was successful.

[Warham]

Oswald was the lone gunman. It's been proven that all the shots that killed Kennedy and injured Conally could have been pulled off by one gunman with that type of rifle from that range and angle with no problem.

Anybody that thinks Jack Ruby was hired by somebody else to kill Oswald needs to look elsewhere. All of Ruby's friends said he could never keep his mouth shut longer than five seconds about anything.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
Oswald was the lone gunman. It's been proven that all the shots that killed Kennedy and injured Conally could have been pulled off by one gunman with that type of rifle from that range and angle with no problem.

Anybody that thinks Jack Ruby was hired by somebody else to kill Oswald needs to look elsewhere. All of Ruby's friends said he could never keep his mouth shut longer than five seconds about anything.

Jack Ruby was associated with the BCE, specifically Dick Nixon, since 1947. And Ruby knew the nature of the people he worked for. He told the Warren Commission "...a whole new form of government is going to take over this country, and I know I won't live to see you another time."

Ruby died in prison in 1967 of lung cancer which he believed came from a CIA needle in order to silence him. Turns out he was proven right on both counts.

[FORD]

Jack Ruby speaks (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neal.mccarthy/ruby.mpg)

Jack Ruby (Oswald's assassin) makes a statement to reporters after his trial, admitting to a conspiracy. He says :

Everything pertaining to what's happening has never come to the surface. The world will never know the true facts, of what occurred, my motives. The people had , that had so much to gain and had such an ulterior motive for putting me in the position I'm in, will never let the true facts come above board to the world.

Reporter : Are these people in very high positions Jack ??

Jack : Yes.

--------------------------------------------------



Dick Nixon says "You don't want to open that whole Bay of Pigs thing" (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/neal.mccarthy/openthebayofpigs.avi)

Clip of Richard Nixon threatening the CIA that the Kennedy Assassination will be exposed if the Watergate Investigation isn't stopped.

Nixon attempts to stop the FBI investigation into the Watergate burglary by asking the head of the CIA to say it was one of their own operations. It wasn't. To pressure the CIA into going along with the plan he tells his chief of staff to let the head of the CIA know that should the FBI continue their investigation, it could 'Open up the whole Bay of Pigs thing'. The Bay of Pigs was the place in Cuba where the USA had attempted to invade in 1961. All of the Bay of Pigs scandal came out into the open at the time, so Nixon must be using this as a euphemism for something else. Many believe that Kennedy was assassinated by the CIA associates and Cuban exiles who were involved in the Bay of Pigs operation. Certainly all the people involved hated Kennedy blaming him for not providing US air power, dooming the operation to failure. Howard Hunt, the CIA chief in the Bay of Pigs operation is thought to have used his CIA trained Cuban exiles for the JFK assassination and did subsequently, working for the Nixon White House for the Watergate break in. This clip contains a section from the audio tapes that recorded Nixon's conversations in the Oval Office (The Watergate Tapes) which Nixon always intended to remain secret. It also features an interview with Haldeman (Nixon's Chief of staff) who talks about how the normally ice cold superspy Helms (CIA Director) became 'Totally Unglued' when he mentioned the Bay of Pigs. In his book 'The Ends of Power' Haldeman states that he believed Nixon used 'The Bay of Pigs' as a euphemism for the JFK assassination. The video clip also has Richard Helms giving his rather weak explanation as to what Nixon was attempting to do, 'None of these things made any sense much.' To read a full transcript of this section of the Watergate tape and listen to the audio click Here. JFK blamed the CIA for the embarrassing failure at the Bay of Pigs and sacked the head Allen Dulles who would subsequently sit on the Warren Commission investigation into his assassination. This video is a must for anyone who believes in the two lone nuts theory, watch this and tell me that there was no high level conspiracy.

[Lqskdiver]

Fucking conspiracy nuts!

This is thread is the like Comic Con to you wahoos!

Keep searching...the truth IS out there.

[Warham]

In Defense of Jack Ruby

Was Lee Harvey Oswald's killer part of a conspiracy?

Many take it for granted that if there was an assassination conspiracy, Jack Ruby must have been involved. In fact, many people believe there was a conspiracy precisely because of Ruby's murder of Lee Harvey Oswald, which had the effect -- intentional or not -- of silencing the accused assassin.

But whether there was a conspiracy or not, there is no reason to assume that Ruby must have been involved. In fact, logic tells us that no conspiracy could profit by silencing Oswald in a public fashion: What's the point of eliminating one suspect while simultaneously handing the police another? Also, were it Oswald's intention to "talk," he'd already had nearly 48 hours in which to do so. Every minute he waited only diminished the chance that others involved could be apprehended. By that time, any conspirators would have to assume he'd already spilled his guts.

Another factor to be considered is whether Ruby was the type of person to be entrusted with any responsibility, when a single word from him could have resulted in the arrest of others involved. Dallas reporter Tony Zoppi knew Ruby well and says one "would have to be crazy" to entrust Ruby with anything important, that he "couldn't keep a secret for five minutes. . . . Jack was one of the most talkative guys you would ever meet. He'd be the worst fellow in the world to be part of a conspiracy, because he just plain talked too much."(1) "Jack Ruby would be the last one that I could ever trust to do anything," says Ruby's rabbi, Hillel Silverman.(2)

According to stripper Janet "Jada" Conforto, Ruby was "totally unpredictable. . . . Completely emotional. One minute he is nice, and the next minute he goes berserk. . . . I don't think he is sane."(3) American Guild of Variety Artists official Johnnie Hayden called Ruby a "kook" because of his unpredictable and erratic outbursts.(4) Edward Pullman, whose wife worked for Ruby, called him "insane. He was a psycho. . . . He was not right."(5) William Serur knew Ruby for over ten years and said, "In the last few years I thought he might have been suffering from some form of . . . mental disturbance, by the way he acted."(6)

Rabbi Silverman says, "He was a very volatile, a very emotional, unbalanced person. He thought he was doing the right thing [when he shot Oswald]. He loved Kennedy."(7) "I hope I killed the son of a bitch," Ruby said immediately afterwards to the Dallas police who arrested him. "It will save you guys a lot of trouble."(8) He told Assistant DA Bill Alexander, "Well, you guys couldn't do it. Someone had to do it. That son of a bitch killed my President."(9)

"Jack actually thought he might come out of this as a hero of sorts," says Alexander. "He thought he had erased any stigma the city had by knocking off Oswald."(10) Attorney Jim Martin spoke to Ruby soon after his arrest and says, "He never expected to spend a night in jail."(11)

In fact, when the crowd outside Dallas Police Department headquarters heard that Oswald had been shot, they burst into applause.(12)





In the many years -- nearly half a century now -- since the nightclub owner emerged from the shadows to gun down Oswald, Ruby's life has become one of the most intensely scrutinized biographies in American history; yet not a shred of evidence has ever surfaced to link him to an assassination conspiracy. Is it really possible that Ruby covered his tracks so thoroughly?

The only thing people can do to indicate a role for Ruby in a conspiracy is to take Ruby's own words out of context, something countless researchers have been all too willing to do. Oliver Stone's JFK depicts Ruby before the Warren Commission, begging to be taken back to Washington so that he can give "further testimony," presumably of a conspiratorial nature.

But Stone omits what is arguably the most lucid, significant remark of Ruby's testimony, when he told Chief Justice Earl Warren, Gerald Ford and others, "I am as innocent regarding any conspiracy as any of you gentlemen in the room . . ."(13) Ruby was actually begging the commission to take him back to Washington so that he could take a polygraph examination and prove that he was telling the truth when he denied any role in a conspiracy.



Mr. RUBY. Without a lie detector test on my testimony, my verbal statements to you, how do you know if I am telling the truth? . . . I would like to be able to get a lie detector test or truth serum of what motivated me to do what I did at that particular time . . .(14)



It was precisely this concern that was voiced when Ruby asked:



Mr. RUBY. Is there any way to get me to Washington?

Chief Justice WARREN. I beg your pardon?

Mr. RUBY. Is there any way of you getting me to Washington?

Chief Justice WARREN. I don't know of any. I will be glad to talk to your counsel about what the situation is, Mr. Ruby, when we get an opportunity to talk.

Mr. RUBY. . . . I would like to request that I go to Washington and take all the tests that I have to take. It is very important. . . . Because I have been over this for the longest time to get the lie detector test.(15)



Ruby made a number of statements that are all too easily taken out of context. For example:



Mr. RUBY. Gentlemen, my life is in danger here. . . . I may not live tomorrow to give any further testimony. The reason why I add this to this, since you assure me that I have been speaking sense by then, I might be speaking sense by following what I have said, and the only thing I want to get out to the public, and I can't say it here, is with authenticity, with sincerity of the truth of everything and why my act was committed, but it can't be said here.

It can be said, it's got to be said amongst people of the highest authority that would give me the benefit of doubt. And following that, immediately give me the lie detector test after I do make the statement.(16)



It is not any alleged conspirators that threaten Ruby, however. Rather, he fears that if he is believed to be part of an assassination conspiracy, someone might do to him -- and members of his family -- precisely what he had done to Oswald:



Mr. RUBY. [S]ome persons are accusing me falsely of being part of the plot . . . a plot to silence Oswald. . . . [T]he people that have the power here . . . already have me as the accused assassin of our beloved President.(17) I tell you, gentlemen, my whole family is in jeopardy . . . as to their lives. . . . Naturally, I am a foregone conclusion. My sisters Eva, Eileen, and Mary, I lost my sisters. My brothers Sam, Earl, Hyman, and myself naturally -- my in-laws, Harold Kaminsky, Marge Ruby, the wife of Earl, and Phyllis, the wife of Sam Ruby, they are in jeopardy of loss of their lives . . . just because they are blood related to myself . . . Consequently, right at this moment I am being victimized [falsely portrayed] as a part of a plot in the world's worst tragedy and crime at this moment. . . . At this moment, Lee Harvey Oswald isn't [seen as being] guilty of committing the crime of assassinating President Kennedy. Jack Ruby is. How can I fight that, Chief Justice Warren?(18)



Ruby was also very specific about precisely who was most actively pushing the theory of his involvement in a conspiracy:



[T]here is a certain organization in this area that has been indoctrinated that I am the one that was in the plot to assassinate our President. . . . The John Birch Society.(19)



Ruby was correct; the John Birch Society was indeed spreading propaganda implicating Ruby as part of a Jewish conspiracy. In fact, Ruby correctly named resigned US Army Major General Edwin Walker as one of the society's leaders in Dallas,(20) and it is quite telling that when Walker appeared before the Warren Commission, he insisted upon referring to Ruby by his birth name, Rubenstein.(21)

Ruby continued:



If certain people have the means and want to gain something by propagandizing something to their own use, they will make ways to present certain things that I do look guilty."(22) . . . If you don't take me back to Washington tonight to give me a chance to prove to the President that I am not guilty, then you will see the most tragic thing that will ever happen. And . . . I won't be around to be able to prove my innocence or guilt.(23). . . I am used as a scapegoat, and there is no greater weapon that you can use to create some falsehood about some of the Jewish faith, especially at the terrible heinous crime such as the killing of President Kennedy. . . . Now maybe something can be saved. It may not be too late, whatever happens, if our President, Lyndon Johnson, knew the truth from me. But if I am eliminated, there won't be any way of knowing. Right now, when I leave your presence now, I am the only one that can bring out the truth to our President, who believes in righteousness and justice. But he has been told, I am certain, that I was part of a plot to assassinate the President. . . .(24)



Ruby's attorney Joe Tonahill asked, "Who do you think is going to eliminate you, Jack?" Ruby replied, in another statement that has been quoted out of context by even reputable journalists such as Seth Kantor, "I have been used for a purpose [for propaganda by anti-Semitic organizations like the Birch Society], and there will be a certain tragic occurrence happening if you don't take my testimony and somehow vindicate me so my people don't suffer because of what I have done. . . . You have lost me though. You have lost me, Chief Justice Warren. . . . I won't be around for you to come and question me again. . . . All I want is a lie detector test, and you refuse to give it to me."(25)

For those more intent upon pinning the blame on Ruby than discerning the true nature of the facts, the only thing left to do is insist he was lying. One assassination researcher has even made repeated claims that the polygraph test Ruby eventually took indicated that Ruby was, in fact, lying. This researcher has claimed that "a panel of 9 polygraph experts determined that there were blatant signs of deception during Ruby's polygraph test, when he was asked about knowing Oswald and about involvement with Oswald in the assassination."(26)

This researcher asserts this in spite of the fact that the panel in question, that of the House Select Committee on Assassinations, actually concluded: "It is emphasized by the panel, however, that no opinion could be rendered on the validity of this examination or the reliability of the results for the numerous reasons discussed in this report."(27)

Click here to read the House committee's full report on Ruby's polygraph examination.

What about the question of motive? Did Ruby really shoot Oswald because he wanted to spare Mrs. Kennedy the ordeal of Oswald's trial? Or did he have a more obvious motive? "Everybody has fantasies about wanting to be a hero," says James R. Leavelle, the homicide detective in the white hat who was handcuffed to Oswald when Ruby emerged from the shadows. "Ruby told me an interesting thing when I was a patrolman," Leavelle recalls, "which didn't make any sense to me at the time, but it did after [Ruby shot Oswald]. He told me, 'I'd like to see two police officers sometime in a death struggle about to lose their lives, and I could jump in there and save them and be a hero.'"(28)

Leavelle accompanied Ruby when he was transferred from the city jail. He says, "When I transferred him, I told him when we were going down on the elevator, 'Jack, in all the years I've known you, you've never done anything to hurt a police officer, but you didn't do us any favors this time.'" Ruby replied, "Well, all I wanted to do was be a hero, and it looks like I just fouled things up." ("Except he used another word for it," notes Leavelle.)(29)

Sgt. Gerald Hill had known Ruby for over a decade at the time of the assassination. Hill says, "I think his calculating mind was going all the time on the assumption that 'I'll shoot Oswald. Public sentiment will get me off, and then I'll make a million bucks because everybody'll come to see the man that killed the man that killed the President!'"(30)

Police Captain W. R. Westbrook had also known Ruby for years. Westbrook says, "Ruby probably thought he was going to be a hero, maybe like John Wilkes Booth."(31)

Captain L. D. Montgomery, who also knew Ruby, concurs: "I think that he thought that if he killed the man that killed the President, then it would make him a hero and possibly some money."(32)

How long is the statute of limitations on suspicion? When does the research community admit that it has no evidence against Jack Ruby, and direct its efforts in more productive directions? Through "certain falsehoods that have been said about me," Ruby once lamented, "I am as good as guilty as the accused assassin of President Kennedy." He asked, "How can you remedy that, Mr. Warren? Do any of you men have any ways of remedying that?"(33)

Four decades on, no answer is in sight.

http://www.jfk-online.com/rubydef.html

[Baby's On Fire]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
eh, i believe it was oswald.

while it's tough, i'm fairly certain it's been established that it is theoretically possible to get off the requisite number of shots.

and there are so many possible theories as to what actually happened; it's 100% certain that at a minimum, the vast majority are wrong.

that, and given the lack of compelling evidence on any one theory, i'll go with oswald as the lone nut.

though, if my belief in the government's involvement in 9/11 is a 1 on a scale of 1 to conspiracy, i'd probably put the lone gunman at more like a 5 or so...

The Secret Service altered almost EVERY rule of protection for the presidnatial motorcade....and Keendy ends up dead.

You're out of your mind to think Oswald acted alone....

The Secret Servcie does not ahve the option of making up the rules on the fly......they have protocol which they broke. Only the CIA or Government Powers complicit in the killing couod have achieved this.

[knuckleboner]

why?

it IS possible for somebody to have gotten the shots in that amount of time.

and what's the evidence for a conspiracy? that some dude was holding an umbrella? that jack ruby killed oswald? that you say that the secret service altered every protocol?

all of the conspiracy evidence so far has been either incomplete, circumstantial or speculative. (and it can't agree, either. as you're just as likely to hear people theorize that it was 1) the U.S. government; 2) the mob; or 3) cuba.)

therefore, i'm going to remain skeptical about any conspiracies.

now, i agree the whole situation was rather confusing from all angles, so i'm not putting my full faith into the oswald story. but until i see something worthwhile to convince me otherwise, i'm sticking to it.

[Seshmeister]

I've actually been a lot more skeptical about the JFK conspiracy after seeing all the bullshit people have come up with after 9-11.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Warham
Oswald was the lone gunman. It's been proven that all the shots that killed Kennedy and injured Conally could have been pulled off by one gunman with that type of rifle from that range and angle with no problem.

Anybody that thinks Jack Ruby was hired by somebody else to kill Oswald needs to look elsewhere. All of Ruby's friends said he could never keep his mouth shut longer than five seconds about anything.

I really hate to agree with Warham, but I believe that while Oswald probably was part of a larger conspiracy; I think he was probably the only shooter...

And a lot of the evidence that supposedly shows otherwise has been shown to be, as Penn and Teller say: bullshit.

[Baby's On Fire]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
why?

it IS possible for somebody to have gotten the shots in that amount of time.

and what's the evidence for a conspiracy? that some dude was holding an umbrella? that jack ruby killed oswald? that you say that the secret service altered every protocol?

all of the conspiracy evidence so far has been either incomplete, circumstantial or speculative. (and it can't agree, either. as you're just as likely to hear people theorize that it was 1) the U.S. government; 2) the mob; or 3) cuba.)

therefore, i'm going to remain skeptical about any conspiracies.

now, i agree the whole situation was rather confusing from all angles, so i'm not putting my full faith into the oswald story. but until i see something worthwhile to convince me otherwise, i'm sticking to it.

If you look at any analysis of the assassination, or watch any objective documentary, you will see Secret Service agents themselves stating that every protocol for motorcade security was broken.

The Secret Servcie does not fuck up like that, especially on multiple points of protection.

And no, it has been shown IMPOSSIBLE for even an expert marksman to shoot a bolt action rifle that fast, let alone with any accuarcy at all.

It's ludicrous.

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Baby's On Fire

And no, it has been shown IMPOSSIBLE for even an expert marksman to shoot a bolt action rifle that fast, let alone with any accuarcy at all.


uh, IMPOSSIBLE? nobody's ever done it? you sure?



2) Walter Cronkite, The Warren Report: Part 1, CBS Television (25th June, 1967)

It seemed evident that we should try to establish the ease or difficulty of that rapid-fire performance. Hence, our next question: How fast could that rifle be fired? Oswald's rifle was test-fired for the Warren Commission by FBI and military marksmen. The rate of fire for this bolt-action rifle and its accuracy against a moving target were critical to the Commission's case against Oswald. And yet, incredibly, all tests for the Commission were fired at stationary targets. The FBI won't comment on why.

Based more on testimony than on firing tests, the Commission concluded it was an easy shot for Oswald to hit the President at that range. From its tests the main conclusion drawn was that this Mannlicher-Carcano could not be fired three times in a span of less than 4.6 seconds, because it took about 2.3 seconds to operate the bolt mechanism between shots...


link (http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/2WWcronkite.htm)




FBI weapons expert Robert Frazier got off three accurate shots with Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano rifle in 4.5 seconds -- recycling the mechanism and reaiming the rifle twice. In this hilarious sequence, conspiracy author Josiah Thompson misstates Frazier's results, and proceeds to cycle the mechanism of the rifle in 1.83 seconds, all the while explaining that it can't be done in under 2.3 seconds. Clicking on the still at right will download a video clip of Thompson. (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/tink.rm)

link (http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/dealey.htm)




The Kennedy Assassination: Beyond Conspiracy, BBC, Broadcast 23/11/2003: The Zapruder film shows that it wasn't 6 seconds at all, it was 8.3 seconds, more than enough time to fire off the three shots. Oswald was a champion shot: At 200 yards and whilst rapidly firing when training with the Marines, he had a 48/49 out of 50 accuracy rating which is superb. Kennedy was only 88 yards away.

link (http://www.thevoiceofreason.com/Conspiracy/AssassinationJFK.htm)




But - you'll recall the main claim of the conspiracy theorists is that "Oswald could not have fired 3 aimed shots with a scope-sighted bolt-action rifle in 10 seconds."

It just so happens I have one of those.

Back in the mid 1990's I managed to get a good deal on a Sako TRG-21s sniper rifle in .308.

...


In fact, my hurrying to get all 3 shots off in under 4 seconds didn't matter much, either. My target was DRT after the first round. A semi-hollow-point .308 boat-tail bullet hitting a person in any of the 3 places where my rounds hit would have done instant catastrophic damage.

link (http://www.ranum.com/fun/bsu/diy-dealy/index.html)



dude, ball's back in your court. i say it IS possible to get off 3 shots in the requisite 4.5 to 8 seconds that the shots took. now, i'll give you that it would've been difficult shots. and if you said it was unlikely that somebody getting off shots that quickly could've done it, then i'll agree with you. but if you say that NOBODY could've shot the rifle that quickly, then i think it kills the rest of your argument.

[Warham]

There was a TV special where a rifle expert was able to get off three practice shots in the requisite amount of time with that rifle AND have plenty of time to aim for a specific target, like say, a person's neck or back of the skull.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Warham
There was a TV special where a rifle expert was able to get off three practice shots in the requisite amount of time with that rifle AND have plenty of time to aim for a specific target, like say, a person's neck or back of the skull.

No there wasn't.

[Warham]

Yes, there was. They had the guy sit in the same window that Oswald was in, with the same rifle, and show how he would have gotten off three shots, in a leisurely fashion, I might add. He almost had enough time to drink some coffee while he was at it.

They even did computer simulations to show the trajectory of the bullets and how they would have passed through Kennedy and into Conally.

I believe it was on the History channel.

[Warham]

"Michael Yardley, using a Carcano rifle, recreated the shots at Dealey Plaza for the Discovery Channel, target moving at 10 mph, same angles, same distances, same time constraints that Oswald had, fired 16 times, got 16 hits. Mr. Yardley is a firearms expert, although more of a shotgun expert than a rifle expert. Still, much better than Oswald was."

From the History Channel forums.

[Warham]

More of that same post from the forums over there...

"A good question is, if the shooting was not done by a former Marine who was somewhat rusty, then why did the first two shots miss? Why did the first shot miss the President's head, miss his body, miss the limousine! Why did the second shot miss the President's head and strike in the upper most part of his back? Had by a fluke chance, the President not been temporarily paralyzed, he likely would have ducked down. Why did it take 3 (or more shots, according to any conspiracy scenario) before a shot hits the head? All the shots were fired at under 88 yards. An expert shooter could have placed himself in the Dal-Tex building, firing down the axis of travel, pretty well eliminating the need to lead the target. A large conspiracy, that can fake a President's autopsy, surely can pull some strings and get a sniper placed there.

Michael Yardley, using a Carcano rifle, recreated the shots at Dealey Plaza for the Discovery Channel, target moving at 10 mph, same angles, same distances, same time constraints that Oswald had, fired 16 times, got 16 hits. Mr. Yardley is a firearms expert, although more of a shotgun expert than a rifle expert. Still, much better than Oswald was.

I understand that the very top experts can kill reliably from up to 400 to 600 yards away, at a stationary target. I am pretty certain a stationary target from 400 to 600 yards away is a much more challenging shot than a smoothly rolling target, 10 mph, about 30 degrees from axis of travel (for Oswald), 88 yards away.

By the way, the logbook that was kept by Oswald's mother showed he could hit a stationary target, the size and shape of a man's head and shoulders, no scope, from 200 yards away, rapid semi-automatic fire, 48 out of 50 times. Not tremendously impressive, but a bit better than the average Marine who passes his shooting tests.

All and all, does the shooting at Dealey Plaza sound more like an expert sniper or more like a rusty former Marine?"

[FORD]

I saw the show Warpig was talking about. And it was obviously a BCE sponsored whitewash.

Their half-assed justification of how Sirhan Sirhan could have supposedly shot RFK point blank from behind when he was ALWAYS 10 feet in front of Bobby was even more pathetic.

The fact that they STILL go to such lengths to cover up these murders is proof that at least some of the guilty parties are still alive and therefore prosecutable should the truth come out.

LBJ is dead. Oswald is dead. Ruby is dead. Sirhan is batshit crazy and climbs the bars of his cell like a monkey.

Who are they protecting?

[Seshmeister]

Going back to the unlikelyness of the solo shooter thing take a step back.

It's actually a warped logic. The three shots can be fired in the time with a little aiming, I've seen it done in a recreation.

The fact that the bullets went the way they did is kind of irrelevant. Once something is posible then you have to prove that it didn't happen not that it was unlikely.

Look at this way. Say I walk into the street and throw 50 quarters into the air. We go and count them and see I got just 6 heads and 44 tails.

A conspiracy theorist then says 'What the fuck is the chances of that?'. 'He must have weighted the coins so they would fall that way'.

They go out and throw those quarters into the air 100 times and never manage it. It's impossible they say.

No it's just quirky.

Fucking hell why do people buy lottery tickets?

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Baby's On Fire
If you look at any analysis of the assassination, or watch any objective documentary, you will see Secret Service agents themselves stating that every protocol for motorcade security was broken.

The Secret Servcie does not #### up like that, especially on multiple points of protection.

And no, it has been shown IMPOSSIBLE for even an expert marksman to shoot a bolt action rifle that fast, let alone with any accuarcy at all.

It's ludicrous.

The Secret Service "protocols" came about largely because of the JFK assassination, and not before it....

[DavidLeeNatra]

I believe that people will still discuss this in a 1000 years...like the killing of julius ceasar...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by DavidLeeNatra
I believe that people will still discuss this in a 1000 years...like the killing of julius ceasar...



and the hiring of Sammy Hagar.......

[Terry]

It's possible Oswald got those shots off in the amount of time he had to work with, but even skeptics of conspiracy theories that posit there was more than one shooter have to admit that he did pull off an incredible bit of shooting there...

Ruby was a chronic fuckup, so why would any plotters hire him to silence Oswald? Why even let Oswald get away from the TSBD in the first place? And if Oswald suddenly realized he was going to get iced or being setup or being left to take the fall all by himself, why NOT tell the police everything he knew in order to get some protection?

For every hole one can find in the official version of events, you can find one in any given conspiracy theory...it's just as likely as not that the Kennedy assassination is nothing more than we were told it was all along...I don't KNOW for certain that any of these given theories aren't actually the truth anymore than any one of the theorists KNOW for a fact that there WAS a conspiracy.

Kennedy was left wide open for blackmail and removal from office via disgrace and a backlash from public opinion by the very nature of his womanizing, and this was in a time where people wouldn't shrug the thing off a la Bubba and Monica. If someone or some group wanted JFK out of there, or the opposition to him was as wide-ranging as people like Stone have claimed, there were plenty of non-lethal ways to accomplish it. Public opinion to Kennedy wasn't all that high just prior to him getting shot, don't forget, and he wasn't exactly a lock on getting re-elected in 1964.

I always thought the whole concept of RFKs Project Freedom backfiring and getting turned around on his brother was one of the more interesting concepts floating around out there.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by DavidLeeNatra
I believe that people will still discuss this in a 1000 years...like the killing of julius ceasar...

Actually, the U.S. gov't will declassify/open its files on the assassination in roughly 2038...

[FORD]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
Actually, the U.S. gov't will declassify/open its files on the assassination in roughly 2038...

Unless pResident Jenna Bush extends the classification.

[Va Beach VH Fan]

I've been a JFK assassination nut ever since I can remember...

Just so happens my parents were married the week before, and had just come back from their honeymoon on that day...

By the way, if anyone gets the opportunity, highly recommend visiting the School Book Depository/Museum...

I got the chance in '00 when I was in Dallas for a conference.... It was the very first thing I did after checking into the hotel...

Very modest admission price, and a few more bucks for an audio tour...

The entire 6th floor is now filled with exhibits about his presidency, but mostly about that day of course...

The corner were Oswald shot from is plexiglassed off, but you can look down to the street from the next window over, and see what kind of an angle he had....

After hitting the gift shop for a few knicknacks, I went down to Dealey Plaza... The spot where the head shot happened is marked by an "X"... Naturally, I stood there for several minutes, some time spent just thinking about that day, some time spent looking back up to the 6th floor....

I walked over to the ledge that Zapruder was standing, verifying the angle that he had, in comparison to the film...

Then I walked over to the grassy knoll.... You're able to walk behind it no problem... Of course, I pretended like I had a rifle and tried to pick off a few cars :D

I'm a history buff, so I'm thankful I got the chance to visit there...

[Keef]

Originally posted by Warham
There was a TV special where

I think i asked before. Are you payed to post?

[Hardrock69]

The powers that be continue to try to whitewash this whole thing.

History Channel had a special called "The JFK Assasination: Beyond Conspiracy" over the weekend.

I was astonished at the outright lies and fabrications in that program. Claiming there was "no evidence" to support the notion of a conspiracy. And that "Oswald was the only person in that corner window" when even I have direct visual evidence there was more than one person at that window.

They also were claiming Jack Ruby had NO ties to the Mob whatsoever, which is also a lie, as there is much evidence to the contrary.

In the meantime, here is some info that many of you have seen, but which many stupid people still try to deny:

LBJ Night Before JFK Assassination: "Those SOB's Will Never Embarrass Me Again"
Outside the debate of magic bullets, multiple shooters and grassy knoll theories - an astounding deposition of a deliberately planned criminal conspiracy straight from the horse's mouth

Paul Joseph Watson/Prison Planet.com | August 30 2006

The night before the Kennedy assassination, Lyndon Baines Johnson met with Dallas tycoons, FBI moguls and organized crime kingpins - emerging from the conference to tell his mistress Madeleine Duncan Brown that "those SOB's" would never embarrass him again. It's a jaw-dropping deposition and it's the biggest JFK smoking gun there is - despite the fact that it has received little media attention.

Before her death on June 22 2002, prolific author and lecturer Robert Gaylon Ross had the opportunity to conduct an 80 minute sit-down interview with Madeleine Duncan Brown and from that lengthy discussion the truth about exactly who was behind the assassination of JFK was exposed.

Though Brown first went public on her 21-year relationship with Johnson in the early 80's, to this day her shocking revelations about how he had told her the Kennedy's "would never embarrass me again" the night before the assassination are often ignored by the media who prefer to keep the debate focused on issues which can't definitively be proven either way (or at least can be spinned and whitewashed).

it is important to note that before her death Brown carried no hostility towards Lyndon Johnson and in fact was just as smitten with him as on the first day they met.

Brown said that the plan to kill JFK had its origins in the 1960 Democratic Convention, at which John F. Kennedy was elected as presidential candidate with Johnson as his running mate, where H.L. Hunt, an American oil tycoon, and Lyndon Johnson hatched the assassination plot.

"When they met in California Joe Kennedy, John Kennedy's father, and H.L. Hunt met met three days prior to the election - they finally cut a deal according to John Currington (an aide to H.L. Hunt) and H.L. finally agreed that Lyndon would go as the vice president....this came from the horse's mouth way back in 1960 - when H.L. came back to Dallas I was walking....with him....and he made the remark, 'we may have lost a battle but we're going to win a war,' and then the day of the assassination he said 'well, we won the war'," said Brown.

Brown said that in the immediate aftermath of the convention Hunt and Johnson mapped out a strategy to kill Kennedy.

"It was a total political crime and H.L. Hunt really controlled what actually happened to John Kennedy - he and Lyndon Johnson," said Brown.

"They had this lodge....outside of Dallas and they would meet there....he chose different people to do certain things for him and I'm sure it went on about two years prior to the assassination of John Kennedy."


Watch a clip of Robert Gaylon Ross' eye-opening interview with Madeleine Duncan Brown.

In the video Brown describes the make-up and activities of the "8F group" which revolved socially and politically around Johnson and Hunt and included high rolling oil tycoons, judges and then FBI director J. Edgar Hoover.

The group included Jack Ruby, the Dallas nightclub owner who would later shoot the patsy Lee Harvey Oswald dead on November 24.

"We were playing poker at the Carousel Club and Jack Ruby came over and he said 'you know what this is?' and I looked up....he had this motorcade route....it stung me that he would be this involved in knowing where the President of the United States was....at that time in my life I thought they were untouchable," said Brown.

Brown described Ruby as the "in man" in Texas who could be trusted to arrange call girls, drugs, gambling fixes and even contract killings.

The group met for a party in Dallas hosted by Clint Murchison, another business tycoon with close links to the Genovese mafia, on November 21st 1963, the night before the assassination. Those present at the event included J. Edgar Hoover, Clyde Tolson, John J. McCloy, Jack Ruby, George Brown (of Brown and Root), numerous mafia kingpins, several newspaper and TV reporters, and Richard Nixon.

The party began to wind down at around 11 o' clock when the attendees were shocked to witness the arrival of Lyndon Johnson who had traveled from Houston. Clint Murchison immediately called a meeting.

"They all went in to this conference room.....Lyndon didn't stay that much in the meeting and when he came out....he grabbed me by the arm and he had this deep voice and he said, 'after tomorrow those S.O.B.'s will never embarrass me again - that's no threat - that's a promise.'"


The Most Revealing Wink Of The 20th Century: Congressman Albert Thomas winks back at a quickly-smiling LBJ as he is being sworn in to be the next President of the United States on Air Force One while the grief-stricken Jackie Kennedy stands next to him.

http://www.rense.com/1.imagesE/thewink.jpg

Johnson was still irate when he called Madeleine Brown the morning of the assassination, telling her the Irish mafia (meaning the Kennedy family) would never embarrass him again.

Brown was in Dallas in the day of the assassination but just as the parade for Kennedy was beginning she left and began driving towards Austin, first stopping off to have a haircut. Upon entering a hair salon she saw the news that Kennedy had been shot and immediately thought to call Lou Sterrett , who was an Austin media mogul.

"I said my God what has happened Lou?"

"And he said 'well they just shot that S.O.B'"

"It was a political crime for political power," said Brown as she highlighted how people who were set to testify against Johnson for indictment proceedings, related to illegal kickbacks Johnson was receiving from agriculture programs before the assassination, were mysteriously set-up in homosexual scandals or found dead having allegedly shot themselves five times in the head.

"Had the assassination not happened the day that it did, Lyndon Johnson would have probably gone to prison - they would have gotten rid of him - he was so involved with some of this," said Brown.

Having had her own (and LBJ's illegitimate) son and nanny disappeared by Johnson's hitmen after the assassination, and upon hearing of the strange deaths of many other people connected to the events in Dealy Plaza, Brown felt that she was safer out in the light and decided to let the world hear her story.

It's a story that simply hasn't got enough attention, besides a 2003 book written by Barr McClellan, father of White House press secretary Scott McClellan. Hopefully this article and the video clip contained therein will help to bring more attention to perhaps the biggest smoking gun proving that the assassination of JFK was an inside job planned from the very top years in advance.

If they had the gall to blow the President's head off in broad daylight with the world's media watching over 40 years ago - what would stop the same lineage of criminals from carrying out 9/11?

Prison Planet.tv members can view the full 80 minute expose interview with Madeleine Duncan Brown by clicking here. Please consider becoming a subscriber and getting access to a plethora of great material by clicking here.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/august2006/300806jfk.htm

[Hardrock69]

Another interesting article:

It's Time to Re-Open the Investigation of RFK and JFK Assassinations
by MICHAEL CARMICHAEL
The assassination of JFK would seem to be an eternal mystery that has long since passed into the realm of myth; however, that is not the case for today; technology has provided a wealth of new tools with which to examine evidence in criminal cases—even cold cases over forty years old.
Nov. 22, 2006—Planning to write a film script about the case, Shane O’Sullivan, an independent researcher, investigated the assassination of RFK. But, O’Sullivan found much more than he had hoped.

On Monday night, the BBC broadcast O’Sullivan’s report on their high-profile programme, "Newsnight." O’Sullivan’s findings shocked many people. Working through an exhaustive analysis of videotapes made at the Ambassador Hotel on the night of RFK’s assassination, O’Sullivan identified three figures as former agents of the CIA. Two of the agents O’Sullivan identified could be seen moving away from the hotel pantry shortly after the shooting of RFK.

Following his preliminary identifications, O’Sullivan presented the video images to more authoritative sources, men who knew the three agents personally. While there was a slender degree of uncertainty (circa 5-10%) the men in the videos were positively identified as the former CIA agents:

* David Sanchez Morales;
* Gordon Campbell and
* George Joannides

Morales was known to be involved in coups d’états throughout Latin America and he had a reputation of a dangerous man with an explosive temper who was capable of violence. To entertain his friends, Morales would tell stories about his involvement in the killing and capture of Che Guevara, coups in Latin America and other nefarious covert activities.

Two of the CIA agents in the Ambassador Hotel: Morales and Joannides are now dead, while the whereabouts of the third, Campbell, are presently unknown.

O’Sullivan interviewed Bradley Ayers, U.S. Army Captain retired, who had been stationed at JM-Wave, the Miami base for the CIA. In 1963, David Morales was the Chief of Operations at JM-Wave. Ayers and Morales trained Cuban exiles in the arts of sabotage to be deployed in covert action against the regime of Fidel Castro. On camera, Ayers identified Morales and Campbell with what he described as 95% accuracy. Following that positive identification, Ayers introduced O’Sullivan to David Rabern, a freelance mercenary who had been contracted by the CIA to participate in the Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961. Rabern had been in the ballroom of the Ambassador Hotel on the fateful night in 1968.

While Rabern did not know Morales and Campbell by name, he had noticed them talking to each other in the hotel lobby prior to the assassination. Earlier in the same year, Rabern had noticed Campbell in and around several police stations. If true, this report is rather odd, considering that the CIA has no jurisdiction on U.S. soil. Another bizarre fact: Morales was officially stationed in Laos in 1968.

O’Sullivan found video images of Campbell with another figure who has now been identified as George Joannides, a pivotal figure in the CIA and the re-investigation of the assassination of JFK.

Joannides had been the Chief of Psychological Warfare Operations at JM-Wave. He had retired from his CIA post, but in 1978 he returned to active duty, as it were, as the liaison between the House Select Committee on Assassinations (HSCA) during its re-investigation of the assassinations of JFK and Martin Luther King.

Puzzling, perplexing and problematic, Joannides failed to inform his colleagues at the HSCA that he had ever worked at JM-Wave. This is a troubling enigma, for it suggests that he intended to maintain his covert identity—a fact that would compromise his involvement in the HSCA and jeopardize the entire congressional investigation.

A former researcher with the HSCA, Ed Lopez, identified Joannides as the person in the Ambassador Hotel video with what he described on camera as 99% accuracy. More: Lopez recalled Joannides' obstructive practice of denying the HSCA access to crucial documents in the re-investigation of the assassination of JFK.

O’Sullivan did not stop there. Moving to Washington, he met Wayne Smith, a veteran State Department official who worked with Morales at the US embassy in Havana in the final year of the Batista regime through the Cuban Revolution in 1959 and 1960. When O’Sullivan asked him to respond to the Ambassador Hotel video, Smith immediately stated, “That’s him, that’s Morales.” From a conversation in 1975, Smith recalled that Morales stated that JFK deserved to be assassinated. From Smith’s testimony, O’Sullivan learned that Morales “hated the Kennedys”—because of their cancelling the air support for the failed Bay of Pigs invasion of 1961.

In a hotel near the CIA headquarters (now named the George H. W. Bush Center for Central Intelligence) in Langley, Virginia, O’Sullivan met with a former agent, Tom Clines who said that all of the men in the Ambassador Hotel videos had been misidentified as former CIA agents. When O’Sullivan informed him that Ayers and Smith had positively identified the men as Morales, Campbell and Joannides, Clines became “disturbed,” and he refused to go on camera for the interview.

Following his interview of Clines, senior journalists in Washington advised O’Sullivan to take his testimony with a grain of salt as he was known to “blow smoke” deliberately as a routine function to dissemble facts for the press and public.

Gaeton Fonzi was the lead investigator of the HSCA investigation of the assassination of JFK. In his book, The Last Investigation, Fonzi reported the testimony of Bob Walton, a man who met Morales and discussed JFK with him. According to Fonzi’s account, Morales asserted his direct involvement in the assassination of JFK as revenge for the Bay of Pigs.

On the Watergate tapes, Richard Nixon always referred to the assassination of JFK as “the Bay of Pigs thing.” During Eisenhower’s presidency, Nixon served as the White House liason with the CIA. As Vice-President, Nixon worked directly with Allen Dulles and other senior staff at the CIA on the planning of the Bay of Pigs operation. It should be noted that George H. W. Bush has been known to have been integral to the Bay of Pigs operation since the publication of the enormously popular bestselling book of 1991, Plausible Denial, by Mark Lane.

During his campaign for the presidency in 1960, Nixon was shocked that JFK made public the contents of his top-secret intelligence briefings—and had moved to Nixon’s right to advocate overt military intervention against Cuba. The CIA planned to overthrow Castro in an invasion manned with exiled Cubans trained by the staff at JM-Wave. From our perspective today, it is perfectly understandable why JFK would have been compelled to make this policy position public in his presidential campaign. Had he not done so, JFK could have been tarnished with a charge of being “weak on communism,” by Nixon, who had been one of the leading witch-hunters of the disgraceful McCarthy Era.

Upon his inauguration as president, JFK continued to support the plans to attack Cuba with the force of exiled Cubans—a project that Nixon had nurtured, supported and managed for the Eisenhower White House. However, JFK decided to withhold U.S. air support in order to maintain an arm’s length separation from the Cuban invasion.

The Bay of Pigs became a fiasco. JFK accepted the blame, and he immediately ordered a thorough-going reorganization of the CIA. A few months later, Allen Dulles, who had been a free-wheeling manufacturer of coups d’états while serving as Director of Central Intelligence (DCI), ‘retired’ after a formal conversation with JFK. JFK promptly named a new director, and John McCone, who had been the director of the Atomic Energy Commission, soon took Dulles’s place as DCI.

JFK’s reorientation of the CIA did not stop there. Recognizing that the agency’s mission to wage a covert Cold War was dangerously counterproductive, JFK ordered the CIA to make nuclear non-proliferation its top priority. Eventually, JFK would successfully negotiate the Test Ban Treaty with Nikita Khruschev in the aftermath of the Cuban Missile Crisis—by far the most significant strategic confrontation of the entire Cold War.

Shane O’Sullivan’s identification of three CIA agents in the Ambassador Hotel on the night of the assassination of RFK suggests strongly that the case should be reopened.
While rogue elements in the U.S. intelligence community have long been suspected of meddling in his assassination and those of his brother and Martin Luther King, Jr., Shane O’Sullivan’s identification of three CIA agents in the Ambassador Hotel on the night of the assassination of RFK suggests strongly that the case should be reopened. The third agent in the Ambassador Hotel, George Joannides, now appears to have been engaged in a sabotage mission during the HSCA investigation of JFK’s assassination.

The assassination of JFK would seem to be an eternal mystery that has long since passed into the realm of myth; however, that is not the case for today; technology has provided a wealth of new tools with which to examine evidence in criminal cases—even cold cases over forty years old.

While O’Sullivan is calling for a re-opening of the case of RFK, it is only reasonable to re-open JFK’s case, as well.

In 1968, I was in my final year at the University of North Carolina. From my meeting with a close associate of RFK, I worked as a college and university organizer in his presidential campaign. At the time of his assassination, RFK was the leading candidate for the presidency—far ahead of his nearest rival in the polls and definitely on track to win the November election.

Seeing the BBC broadcast of videotape evidence of three unassigned CIA agents in the Ambassador Hotel Ballroom at the time of RFK’s assassination shocked me. The federal government, Congress and the criminal justice system of the United States failed to protect the president of the United States and its leading presidential candidates. Worse. They have failed to tell the truth to the American people.

Today, on the anniversary of one of the most tragic dates in American history—I propose that the cases of RFK and JFK should be re-opened in either the 110th or the 111th Congress.

We must follow the evidence exhaustively and relentlessly, leaving no stone unturned and no document unexamined regardless of its current status: Sensitive; Secret, Top Secret or Above Top Secret. To do any less would be to become complicit in the lies and cover-ups that have denied the American people of the truth.


http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/2006/112206CARMICHAEL.html

[Warham]

Originally posted by Keef
I think i asked before. Are you payed to post?

Who are you again?

:rolleyes:

[Warham]

Ridiculous.

LBJ wanted so much power that he refused to run for a second term in 1968.

Conspiracy theories are W-E-A-K.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
Ridiculous.

LBJ wanted so much power that he refused to run for a second term in 1968.

Conspiracy theories are W-E-A-K.

LBJ fucked up Vietnam badly, and he didn't have DIEBOLD to help him win an election like Chimpy did.

[Warham]

He didn't need Diebold, Ford. He didn't run.

Besides, didn't Kennedy have suspicious help in Chicago during the 1960 election? No Diebold there.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Warham
He didn't need Diebold, Ford. He didn't run.

Besides, didn't Kennedy have suspicious help in Chicago during the 1960 election? No Diebold there.


Don't need Diebold when ya got Team Daley.

:D :D :D

[Terry]

Madeline Brown's claims are just that: claims. There is no evidence other than her word to back them up. And much of what she said always sounded like pure bullshit to me...but you never know...

Nobody has pictures of anyone, Oswald or otherwise, in the windows of the TSBD building at the time the shots were fired. I've seen all of those "photographic enhancements" in compilation books by Groden, as well as the Moorman blowups, and if you want to see assassins in those, than you will...I personally don't see anything in them other than unidentifiableshadows and blurred blobs that COULD be person, or not...

Read Jim Moore's book Conspiracy Of One carefully. Open yourself to the POSSIBILITY that Oswald did it all by himself. I've got a gut reaction that says it seems far-fetched Oswald could have done it all by himself, but being objective helps one sift through the bunk (and there is a LOT of it) the buffs put out there...

RFK is far more interesting in that apparently there were more bullet wounds and holes in the pantry than Sirhan's gun was able to hold...along with all the photographic evidence in the hands of the LAPD being intentionally destroyed...

[Keef]

Originally posted by Warham
Who are you again?

:rolleyes:

A Van Halen fan that found this website.

Who are you? Besides a fucking parrot?

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by FORD
Unless pResident Jenna Bush extends the classification.

She can't even extend her panties above her knees...

[Nickdfresh]

As usual Terry, an excellent post...

I too used to think there was a big conspiracy when I was on my Olly Stone kick. Great, entertaining film filled with fabrications and sheer horseshit.

One example: The "magic bullet" that is shown in the film is basically a brand new, unfired slug taken from a Carcano 6.5mm casing implying that the bullet was a "plant" and was "prsitine as though it had never been fired. The truth is in fact, the so-called "magic bullet" was scuffed and torn open, and it's lead filling was mushrooming out the back. The only thing that made it "magic" was the fact that the round did not blow up into fragments...

[Terry]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
As usual Terry, an excellent post...

I too used to think there was a big conspiracy when I was on my Olly Stone kick. Great, entertaining film filled with fabrications and sheer horseshit.

One example: The "magic bullet" that is shown in the film is basically a brand new, unfired slug taken from a Carcano 6.5mm casing implying that the bullet was a "plant" and was "prsitine as though it had never been fired. The truth is in fact, the so-called "magic bullet" was scuffed and torn open, and it's lead filling was mushrooming out the back. The only thing that made it "magic" was the fact that the round did not blow up into fragments...


I love Stone's movie JFK as a movie, but as it relates to what is known of the event, it gets so many things factually wrong that it's little more than entertainment to me. The whole crux of it stems from the belief that JFK would have definitely have pulled out of Vietnam in 1965 after the 1964 elections, and even Robert Kennedy in the latter part of the 1960s when talking about that subject said there was no decision made one way or the other, and this is a man who was THERE and more trusted by JFK than anybody, at a point in his (RFK) own political career where he was advocating bugging out of Vietnam saying that JFK hadn't made up his mind...now, who am I gonna believe, RFK or Col. Fletcher Prouty?

I'm open to the possibility of a conspiracy, and have no vested interest in disproving one if it existed, but the buffs are gonna have to do better than they have to date with EVIDENCE. Have they rasied a lot of interesting questions about contradictory areas regarding the event? Yes. Still haven't PROVEN anything yet, though.

That kind of concrete proof will probably only become more elusive as more time passes, if there ever was a conspiracy to begin with.

[Hardrock69]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Don't need Diebold when ya got Team Daley.

:D :D :D

More like Team Giancana

[Hardrock69]

I agree that the movie is a fluff piece.

But as I posted before, I would be completely shocked if there WASN'T a conspiracy, given the people JFK pissed off.

The problem is, if you are president and you try to flex your muscle to actually HELP the people of this planet, you will find you are president in name only, and if you piss off the wrong people, you will get a free air-conditioned brain-pan.



Originally posted by Terry
Madeline Brown's claims are just that: claims. There is no evidence other than her word to back them up. And much of what she said always sounded like pure bullshit to me...but you never know...

Yeah....they are only 'claims', but how sould she profit by making such claims? She if anyone must have known by speaking out, the only profit she might earn would be the chance to be taken out.


Originally posted by Terry


Nobody has pictures of anyone, Oswald or otherwise, in the windows of the TSBD building at the time the shots were fired. I've seen all of those "photographic enhancements" in compilation books by Groden, as well as the Moorman blowups, and if you want to see assassins in those, than you will...I personally don't see anything in them other than unidentifiableshadows and blurred blobs that COULD be person, or not...

The 'blurred blobs' in question were moving. An inamite object would not have. And there were more than one. It is highly unlikely that there was Lee Harvey Oswald AND some kind of amorphous blob hanging out together for the enjoyment of target practice with JFK as the target. Oswald was a fucking crack shot. I never had a problem with the possibility that he could get off 3 shots. But there is enough evidence that there WAS someone on the grassy knoll....and you can fool some people as to the location of firearms reports, but when a mass of people all believe at least one shot was fired from there, it is impossible to believe they all were suffering from some kind of mass hallucination.


Originally posted by Terry

Read Jim Moore's book Conspiracy Of One carefully. Open yourself to the POSSIBILITY that Oswald did it all by himself. I've got a gut reaction that says it seems far-fetched Oswald could have done it all by himself, but being objective helps one sift through the bunk (and there is a LOT of it) the buffs put out there...

One thing that seems to be glossed over is the fact that Oswald WAS working for the CIA at one point. The TV show I saw Saturday night did not mention that, or his service in the Far East at all.

Sure there is a lot of BS put out there, much of it by the Intel community itself (misinformation is a valuable tool), but there is enough stuff that the government refuses to come clean about, that it is obvious to anyone with half a brain that there is more than meets the eye in this case.


Originally posted by Terry


RFK is far more interesting in that apparently there were more bullet wounds and holes in the pantry than Sirhan's gun was able to hold...along with all the photographic evidence in the hands of the LAPD being intentionally destroyed...


Well and the main thing is that Sirhan Sirhan was firing from in front of RFK, but he died from a shot from behind at a range of about an inch. And there were several known CIA operatives, at least one of which was heavily involved in previous assassination plots in other countries, when theoretically they were stationed overseas (according to official records) and had no valid reason for being in L.A. that night.

[Hardrock69]

IN HONOR OF JFK DAY, I AM REPOSTING THE TRUE UNTOLD STORY OF WHAT HAPPENED ON NOVEMBER 22, 1963 IN DEALEY PLAZA, DALLAS, TEXAS, USA, EARTH, SOL, MILKY WAY, UNIVERSE, FINGERNAIL OF GOD (as explained to a rapt audience in Hitchworld some years ago.....) :

I have DOCUMENTED PHOTOGRAPHIC PROOF of what REALLY happened in Dealey Plaza, 11/22/63....

Some space aliens used their secret teleporter ray-beam gun to teleport a wax dummy of Elvis into the Lincoln limousine that day.....about 1/100th of a second before the fatal head shot. I have actual secret frames from the original negative of the Zapruder film that have never been shown to anyone before......



Ok firstly...frame number 311...where a wounded JFK is in the back seat, with Jackie at his side.....


http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=592614

Ok here in frame 312 (the REAL frame 312, not the one that has been shown to the public by the CIA), the Elvis dummy has replaced JFK who, in the two-way transferrence, was transported to their base in the 39th dimension to be healed and live for 300 years as the ruler of some little known slave planet in a system on the very edge of our galaxy....

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=592655

[Hardrock69]

Ok and in frame 313 we see his head go....something has happened in the motorcade.....

:eek:

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=592672


By frame 314, the damage is done.... Elvis has left the building... :(

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=592675

[Hardrock69]

So then when they get to Parkland hospital, they take the E-dummy in by the back way, and had the alien beings teleport it to the 457th century to be repaired, and then shipped back just in time for Elvis's funeral in 1977....

Here is a current pic of JFK ruling some slave-planet....he is 85 now but feels like 20....

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=592690

And here is the Elvis wax dummy.... :(

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=592703

[Hardrock69]

The Umberella man was actually an alien being...

The umbrella housed a top-secret trans-dimensional teleportation controller. He was the only guy in the universe who knew how to use it, cause he built it himself....he got tired of dealing with the shit-quality teleporters he was getting at the galactic equivalent of k-mart...so he invested a few zoolags and made one with all the hyper-threaded matrix dividers one would ever need.... :cool:

So anyway the alien was also controlling the mind of Lee Harvey Oswald, which enabled Oswald to actually fire 8 times in only 3 seconds....this way too Umbrella Man could make Oswald fire the headshot a split second after he caused the Elvis dummy to replace JFK....and what is really freaky is that the guy with Umbrella Man is a very young Cigarette Smoking man!!!! And ANY conspiracy theorist worth a damn knows that Cigarette Smoking man retired from the CIA to become an actor who appeard on the X-Files, and more recently he has a recurring role as the ever-elusive G-Man in the PC game Half Life 2!!!!
:eek:

Does it all make sense now?????

shit.......one problem is the rest of the frames of the film after frame 313 that I own are in a storage locker somewhere in the midwest, so I will have to get out my neo-thermal-equillibrium dowsing bong so I can locate them and post them....they really do not show any more than the Elvis dummy being driven under the underpass as the limo heads to Parkland Hospital...

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=592725

[Hardrock69]

Here was the group responsible for the operation.....

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=592765

And the alien being who masterminded it all.....

http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=592770

[Hardrock69]

And one last detail....Jackie Kennedy never recovered from the ordeal of finding a wax dummy that looked like Elvis sitting next to her, only to see it's head taken apart....

She had a bad habit of drooling and talking to herself while wandering around nude in public....
http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=592788

[Terry]

Originally posted by Hardrock69
And one last detail....Jackie Kennedy never recovered from the ordeal of finding a wax dummy that looked like Elvis sitting next to her, only to see it's head taken apart....

She had a bad habit of drooling and talking to herself while wandering around nude in public....
http://www.rotharmy.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=592788

Hardrock69, we can disagree on many facets about the JFK assassination, but as long as we can agree that Jackie O had a wonderful, hairy bush, any differences of opinion we have re: Nov 22, 1963 are small potatos.

[Hardrock69]

LMFAO!

Yes I agree.
:D