Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do

[FORD]

Sunday, November 26th, 2006
Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do ...a letter from Michael Moore

Friends,

Tomorrow marks the day that we will have been in Iraq longer than we were in all of World War II.

That's right. We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany, Mussolini, and the entire Japanese empire in LESS time than it's taken the world's only superpower to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.

And we haven't even done THAT. After 1,347 days, in the same time it took us to took us to sweep across North Africa, storm the beaches of Italy, conquer the South Pacific, and liberate all of Western Europe, we cannot, after over 3 and 1/2 years, even take over a single highway and protect ourselves from a homemade device of two tin cans placed in a pothole. No wonder the cab fare from the airport into Baghdad is now running around $35,000 for the 25-minute ride. And that doesn't even include a friggin' helmet.

Is this utter failure the fault of our troops? Hardly. That's because no amount of troops or choppers or democracy shot out of the barrel of a gun is ever going to "win" the war in Iraq. It is a lost war, lost because it never had a right to be won, lost because it was started by men who have never been to war, men who hide behind others sent to fight and die.

Let's listen to what the Iraqi people are saying, according to a recent poll conducted by the University of Maryland:

** 71% of all Iraqis now want the U.S. out of Iraq.

** 61% of all Iraqis SUPPORT insurgent attacks on U.S. troops.

Yes, the vast majority of Iraqi citizens believe that our soldiers should be killed and maimed! So what the hell are we still doing there? Talk about not getting the hint.

There are many ways to liberate a country. Usually the residents of that country rise up and liberate themselves. That's how we did it. You can also do it through nonviolent, mass civil disobedience. That's how India did it. You can get the world to boycott a regime until they are so ostracized they capitulate. That's how South Africa did it. Or you can just wait them out and, sooner or later, the king's legions simply leave (sometimes just because they're too cold). That's how Canada did it.

The one way that DOESN'T work is to invade a country and tell the people, "We are here to liberate you!" -- when they have done NOTHING to liberate themselves. Where were all the suicide bombers when Saddam was oppressing them? Where were the insurgents planting bombs along the roadside as the evildoer Saddam's convoy passed them by? I guess ol' Saddam was a cruel despot -- but not cruel enough for thousands to risk their necks. "Oh no, Mike, they couldn't do that! Saddam would have had them killed!" Really? You don't think King George had any of the colonial insurgents killed? You don't think Patrick Henry or Tom Paine were afraid? That didn't stop them. When tens of thousands aren't willing to shed their own blood to remove a dictator, that should be the first clue that they aren't going to be willing participants when you decide you're going to do the liberating for them.

A country can HELP another people overthrow a tyrant (that's what the French did for us in our revolution), but after you help them, you leave. Immediately. The French didn't stay and tell us how to set up our government. They didn't say, "we're not leaving because we want your natural resources." They left us to our own devices and it took us six years before we had an election. And then we had a bloody civil war. That's what happens, and history is full of these examples. The French didn't say, "Oh, we better stay in America, otherwise they're going to kill each other over that slavery issue!"

The only way a war of liberation has a chance of succeeding is if the oppressed people being liberated have their own citizens behind them -- and a group of Washingtons, Jeffersons, Franklins, Ghandis and Mandellas leading them. Where are these beacons of liberty in Iraq? This is a joke and it's been a joke since the beginning. Yes, the joke's been on us, but with 655,000 Iraqis now dead as a result of our invasion (source: Johns Hopkins University), I guess the cruel joke is on them. At least they've been liberated, permanently.

So I don't want to hear another word about sending more troops (wake up, America, John McCain is bonkers), or "redeploying" them, or waiting four months to begin the "phase-out." There is only one solution and it is this: Leave. Now. Start tonight. Get out of there as fast as we can. As much as people of good heart and conscience don't want to believe this, as much as it kills us to accept defeat, there is nothing we can do to undo the damage we have done. What's happened has happened. If you were to drive drunk down the road and you killed a child, there would be nothing you could do to bring that child back to life. If you invade and destroy a country, plunging it into a civil war, there isn’t much you can do ‘til the smoke settles and blood is mopped up. Then maybe you can atone for the atrocity you have committed and help the living come back to a better life.

The Soviet Union got out of Afghanistan in 36 weeks. They did so and suffered hardly any losses as they left. They realized the mistake they had made and removed their troops. A civil war ensued. The bad guys won. Later, we overthrew the bad guys and everybody lived happily ever after. See! It all works out in the end!

The responsibility to end this war now falls upon the Democrats. Congress controls the purse strings and the Constitution says only Congress can declare war. Mr. Reid and Ms. Pelosi now hold the power to put an end to this madness. Failure to do so will bring the wrath of the voters. We aren't kidding around, Democrats, and if you don't believe us, just go ahead and continue this war another month. We will fight you harder than we did the Republicans. The opening page of my website has a photo of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, each made up by a collage of photos of the American soldiers who have died in Bush's War. But it is now about to become the Bush/Democratic Party War unless swift action is taken.

This is what we demand:

1. Bring the troops home now. Not six months from now. NOW. Quit looking for a way to win. We can't win. We've lost. Sometimes you lose. This is one of those times. Be brave and admit it.

2. Apologize to our soldiers and make amends. Tell them we are sorry they were used to fight a war that had NOTHING to do with our national security. We must commit to taking care of them so that they suffer as little as possible. The mentally and physically maimed must get the best care and significant financial compensation. The families of the deceased deserve the biggest apology and they must be taken care of for the rest of their lives.

3. We must atone for the atrocity we have perpetuated on the people of Iraq. There are few evils worse than waging a war based on a lie, invading another country because you want what they have buried under the ground. Now many more will die. Their blood is on our hands, regardless for whom we voted. If you pay taxes, you have contributed to the three billion dollars a week now being spent to drive Iraq into the hellhole it's become. When the civil war is over, we will have to help rebuild Iraq. We can receive no redemption until we have atoned.

In closing, there is one final thing I know. We Americans are better than what has been done in our name. A majority of us were upset and angry after 9/11 and we lost our minds. We didn't think straight and we never looked at a map. Because we are kept stupid through our pathetic education system and our lazy media, we knew nothing of history. We didn't know that WE were the ones funding and arming Saddam for many years, including those when he massacred the Kurds. He was our guy. We didn't know what a Sunni or a Shiite was, never even heard the words. Eighty percent of our young adults (according to National Geographic) were not able to find Iraq on the map. Our leaders played off our stupidity, manipulated us with lies, and scared us to death.

But at our core we are a good people. We may be slow learners, but that "Mission Accomplished" banner struck us as odd, and soon we began to ask some questions. Then we began to get smart. By this past November 7th, we got mad and tried to right our wrongs. The majority now know the truth. The majority now feel a deep sadness and guilt and a hope that somehow we can make make it all right again.

Unfortunately, we can't. So we will accept the consequences of our actions and do our best to be there should the Iraqi people ever dare to seek our help in the future. We ask for their forgiveness.

We demand the Democrats listen to us and get out of Iraq now.

Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com
mmflint@aol.com

Link (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=202)

[FORD]

Allow me to get the usual Republican talking points out of the way...

"Michael Moore is a fat gay communist homosexual liberal whiny ass"

OK, now none of you Busheep have to waste your time on that shit. Now you can try in vain to argue against what he actually SAID. :)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by FORD
Allow me to get the usual Republican talking points out of the way...

"Michael Moore is a fat gay communist homosexual liberal whiny ass"

OK, now none of you Busheep have to waste your time on that shit. Now you can try in vain to argue against what he actually SAID. :)



Beat me to it. :cool:

The crickets will now chirp.

[Nitro Express]

I would say most Iraqis did not like Saddam Hussain. At least we got rid of him. Now Iraq, the rest is up to you.

Iraq is just another sad chapter in the book called The Stupidity of War. It was a war waged against everything written in the book Art of War. If Bush read that book he would have never gone into Iraq in the first place.

Good men die when assholes are in charge.

[Nitro Express]

I don't like George W. Bush but I sure as hell wouldn't like it if Iraq invaded the country telling us they were here to save us while they rampage around in armoured vehicles and guns tearing the whole country apart in the process.

[Nitro Express]

We need to get out now and make it look like the Iraqis failed. LOL! That's how it's done in Corporate America these days. Rape the company and before it starts to crumble, bail out and let the new guy take the fall.

For this to be a true Halliburton success we need to steal all the oil before we go. LOL!

[Warham]

Originally posted by FORD
"Michael Moore is a fat gay communist homosexual liberal whiny ass"


You forgot to mention shitty filmmaker.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Warham
You forgot to mention shitty filmmaker.

Whatever :rolleyes:

Now tell me where you disagree with him.

[FORD]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
We need to get out now and make it look like the Iraqis failed. LOL! That's how it's done in Corporate America these days. Rape the company and before it starts to crumble, bail out and let the new guy take the fall.

For this to be a true Halliburton success we need to steal all the oil before we go. LOL!

In a way, the "Iraqis" did fail. Because once Saddam was gone, they failed to be "Iraqis", which was a false designation invented by the British Empire when they created "Iraq" literally from nothing.

I'm sure neither a Shia, a Sunni, and certainly not a Kurd would admit to being an "Iraqi" today.

[knuckleboner]

i disagree with the concept of leaving completely today.


for better or for worse, the situation the iraqis are in is a result of the U.S.'s actions.

they were oppressed under saddam, no question. but they at least knew that if they kept their heads down, and remained resigned to the fact of their oppression, that they would probably be ok. that's because saddam's terror far outstripped the various factions' desires for power. they knew the terrible price for opposing saddam, so they didn't. doesn't make saddam a good leader, but it also meant you weren't likely to be blown up in a market.

with saddam removed, and, despite some protests to the contrary, the U.S. forces as good guys by and large (unwilling to truely engage in saddam-like brutality to discourage dissention) the various factions have flared up.

if we wipe our hands completely of iraq starting january 2nd, 2007, then whatever happens is our fault. they didn't choose the time or circumstance to change their government. it's not necessarily their fault if they are unprepared for rebuilding the nation of iraq.


i don't believe our current strategy is working. but i don't think a full withdrawl is proper, either. at this point, we are dealing with the lesser of 2 evils, whichever choice we make.

[Terry]

Never thought we should have been there in the first place.

Also never thought going into it without overwhelming force was sensible; if you're in a war, you either go all out or don't bother.

If we're gonna send in more troops, send in EVERYTHING you've got and get it done.

Sure, it's not realistic to have an immediate, total withdrawal, but if we're not gonna do what is necessary to win, what's the fucking point? Waste of lives and money going about it the way we have been, and the 'democracy' we've brought to that nation is gonna last all of 5 minutes after we eventually leave (I'm presuming we are gonna leave at some point).

In for a penny, in for a pound, blah blah blah. Either unleash the tiger or put it back in the cage.

If we can't manage this one, I shudder to think about what would happen if we tried to take on Iran or North Korea, much less China if it ever came down to it.

[Nitro Express]

We should savor every word of Michael Moore because that dude is going to throw a corinary soon and end up a dead slab of meat. Since he hasn't bathed in years the maggots are even going to stay away.

[Rick Allen]

Originally posted by FORD
Sunday, November 26th, 2006
Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do ...a letter from Michael Moore

Friends,

Tomorrow marks the day that we will have been in Iraq longer than we were in all of World War II.

That's right. We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany, Mussolini, and the entire Japanese empire in LESS time than it's taken the world's only superpower to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.

And we haven't even done THAT. After 1,347 days, in the same time it took us to took us to sweep across North Africa, storm the beaches of Italy, conquer the South Pacific, and liberate all of Western Europe, we cannot, after over 3 and 1/2 years, even take over a single highway and protect ourselves from a homemade device of two tin cans placed in a pothole. No wonder the cab fare from the airport into Baghdad is now running around $35,000 for the 25-minute ride. And that doesn't even include a friggin' helmet.

Is this utter failure the fault of our troops? Hardly. That's because no amount of troops or choppers or democracy shot out of the barrel of a gun is ever going to "win" the war in Iraq. It is a lost war, lost because it never had a right to be won, lost because it was started by men who have never been to war, men who hide behind others sent to fight and die.

Let's listen to what the Iraqi people are saying, according to a recent poll conducted by the University of Maryland:

** 71% of all Iraqis now want the U.S. out of Iraq.

** 61% of all Iraqis SUPPORT insurgent attacks on U.S. troops.

Yes, the vast majority of Iraqi citizens believe that our soldiers should be killed and maimed! So what the hell are we still doing there? Talk about not getting the hint.

There are many ways to liberate a country. Usually the residents of that country rise up and liberate themselves. That's how we did it. You can also do it through nonviolent, mass civil disobedience. That's how India did it. You can get the world to boycott a regime until they are so ostracized they capitulate. That's how South Africa did it. Or you can just wait them out and, sooner or later, the king's legions simply leave (sometimes just because they're too cold). That's how Canada did it.

The one way that DOESN'T work is to invade a country and tell the people, "We are here to liberate you!" -- when they have done NOTHING to liberate themselves. Where were all the suicide bombers when Saddam was oppressing them? Where were the insurgents planting bombs along the roadside as the evildoer Saddam's convoy passed them by? I guess ol' Saddam was a cruel despot -- but not cruel enough for thousands to risk their necks. "Oh no, Mike, they couldn't do that! Saddam would have had them killed!" Really? You don't think King George had any of the colonial insurgents killed? You don't think Patrick Henry or Tom Paine were afraid? That didn't stop them. When tens of thousands aren't willing to shed their own blood to remove a dictator, that should be the first clue that they aren't going to be willing participants when you decide you're going to do the liberating for them.

A country can HELP another people overthrow a tyrant (that's what the French did for us in our revolution), but after you help them, you leave. Immediately. The French didn't stay and tell us how to set up our government. They didn't say, "we're not leaving because we want your natural resources." They left us to our own devices and it took us six years before we had an election. And then we had a bloody civil war. That's what happens, and history is full of these examples. The French didn't say, "Oh, we better stay in America, otherwise they're going to kill each other over that slavery issue!"

The only way a war of liberation has a chance of succeeding is if the oppressed people being liberated have their own citizens behind them -- and a group of Washingtons, Jeffersons, Franklins, Ghandis and Mandellas leading them. Where are these beacons of liberty in Iraq? This is a joke and it's been a joke since the beginning. Yes, the joke's been on us, but with 655,000 Iraqis now dead as a result of our invasion (source: Johns Hopkins University), I guess the cruel joke is on them. At least they've been liberated, permanently.

So I don't want to hear another word about sending more troops (wake up, America, John McCain is bonkers), or "redeploying" them, or waiting four months to begin the "phase-out." There is only one solution and it is this: Leave. Now. Start tonight. Get out of there as fast as we can. As much as people of good heart and conscience don't want to believe this, as much as it kills us to accept defeat, there is nothing we can do to undo the damage we have done. What's happened has happened. If you were to drive drunk down the road and you killed a child, there would be nothing you could do to bring that child back to life. If you invade and destroy a country, plunging it into a civil war, there isn’t much you can do ‘til the smoke settles and blood is mopped up. Then maybe you can atone for the atrocity you have committed and help the living come back to a better life.

The Soviet Union got out of Afghanistan in 36 weeks. They did so and suffered hardly any losses as they left. They realized the mistake they had made and removed their troops. A civil war ensued. The bad guys won. Later, we overthrew the bad guys and everybody lived happily ever after. See! It all works out in the end!

The responsibility to end this war now falls upon the Democrats. Congress controls the purse strings and the Constitution says only Congress can declare war. Mr. Reid and Ms. Pelosi now hold the power to put an end to this madness. Failure to do so will bring the wrath of the voters. We aren't kidding around, Democrats, and if you don't believe us, just go ahead and continue this war another month. We will fight you harder than we did the Republicans. The opening page of my website has a photo of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, each made up by a collage of photos of the American soldiers who have died in Bush's War. But it is now about to become the Bush/Democratic Party War unless swift action is taken.

This is what we demand:

1. Bring the troops home now. Not six months from now. NOW. Quit looking for a way to win. We can't win. We've lost. Sometimes you lose. This is one of those times. Be brave and admit it.

2. Apologize to our soldiers and make amends. Tell them we are sorry they were used to fight a war that had NOTHING to do with our national security. We must commit to taking care of them so that they suffer as little as possible. The mentally and physically maimed must get the best care and significant financial compensation. The families of the deceased deserve the biggest apology and they must be taken care of for the rest of their lives.

3. We must atone for the atrocity we have perpetuated on the people of Iraq. There are few evils worse than waging a war based on a lie, invading another country because you want what they have buried under the ground. Now many more will die. Their blood is on our hands, regardless for whom we voted. If you pay taxes, you have contributed to the three billion dollars a week now being spent to drive Iraq into the hellhole it's become. When the civil war is over, we will have to help rebuild Iraq. We can receive no redemption until we have atoned.

In closing, there is one final thing I know. We Americans are better than what has been done in our name. A majority of us were upset and angry after 9/11 and we lost our minds. We didn't think straight and we never looked at a map. Because we are kept stupid through our pathetic education system and our lazy media, we knew nothing of history. We didn't know that WE were the ones funding and arming Saddam for many years, including those when he massacred the Kurds. He was our guy. We didn't know what a Sunni or a Shiite was, never even heard the words. Eighty percent of our young adults (according to National Geographic) were not able to find Iraq on the map. Our leaders played off our stupidity, manipulated us with lies, and scared us to death.

But at our core we are a good people. We may be slow learners, but that "Mission Accomplished" banner struck us as odd, and soon we began to ask some questions. Then we began to get smart. By this past November 7th, we got mad and tried to right our wrongs. The majority now know the truth. The majority now feel a deep sadness and guilt and a hope that somehow we can make make it all right again.

Unfortunately, we can't. So we will accept the consequences of our actions and do our best to be there should the Iraqi people ever dare to seek our help in the future. We ask for their forgiveness.

We demand the Democrats listen to us and get out of Iraq now.

Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com
mmflint@aol.com

Link (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=202)

I'm a noob so don't slam me tooo much when I say this but:-

Michael Moore is entitled to his opinion just like everybody else but quite honestly he don't have any idea what it takes to run a Country :(

He can't compare WW2 to the situation in Iraq. WW2 finished over 60 years ago.

It would help alot more if people actually SUPPORTED what is trying to get accomplished over there instead of all this pissing and moaning about it.

:(

[pflo]

Why not impeach the fucker? You can, ya know.I thought you yanks had balls. (and Michaeal Moore is a self important fat fuck hippocrite pathetic liar-for the record-). Bush is a MURDERER,COWARD and a LIAR. He duped anyone that voted for him and put your nation into the shitter.I never thought I would see that day. America was a great country, but if the voting population is DUMB enough to re elect that fuckwad , Im sorry, you guys are in trouble. The roman empire is crumbling.Its like giving the keys to a Mack truck to a drunk ten year old. Get on it, impeach the fucker. HE LIED TO YOU .

[pflo]

Originally posted by Terry
Never thought we should have been there in the first place.

Also never thought going into it without overwhelming force was sensible; if you're in a war, you either go all out or don't bother.

If we're gonna send in more troops, send in EVERYTHING you've got and get it done.

Sure, it's not realistic to have an immediate, total withdrawal, but if we're not gonna do what is necessary to win, what's the fucking point? Waste of lives and money going about it the way we have been, and the 'democracy' we've brought to that nation is gonna last all of 5 minutes after we eventually leave (I'm presuming we are gonna leave at some point).

In for a penny, in for a pound, blah blah blah. Either unleash the tiger or put it back in the cage.

If we can't manage this one, I shudder to think about what would happen if we tried to take on Iran or North Korea, much less China if it ever came down to it. Its safe to say China would crush you.

[Rick Allen]

Originally posted by pflo
Why not impeach the fucker? You can, ya know.I thought you yanks had balls. (and Michaeal Moore is a self important fat fuck hippocrite pathetic liar-for the record-). Bush is a MURDERER,COWARD and a LIAR. He duped anyone that voted for him and put your nation into the shitter.I never thought I would see that day. America was a great country, but if the voting population is DUMB enough to re elect that fuckwad , Im sorry, you guys are in trouble. The roman empire is crumbling.Its like giving the keys to a Mack truck to a drunk ten year old. Get on it, impeach the fucker. HE LIED TO YOU .

Freedom Hating Son of a Bitch!!!!

Put this in your Pipe and Smoke it.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JmW0cxOHlYI"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JmW0cxOHlYI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

:mad:

[pflo]

Originally posted by Rick Allen
Freedom Hating Son of a Bitch!!!!

Put this in your Pipe and Smoke it.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/JmW0cxOHlYI"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/JmW0cxOHlYI" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

:mad: Oh so youre one of the boneheads!! TOBY KEITH?? SAMMYS BUDDY?? Toby Keith can suck it, and so can you.Have you ever looked up the word "Jingoism"? Do it. You are a pathetic victim of it. The US is NOT the only free country in the world, far from it. Switzerland doesnt invade countries. You are EXACTLY the type of yankee brain dead pinhead who believes what theyre told and acts out of fear.Toby Keith..good god...Your country fucked up bad, you are not number one,and you will need an attitude adjustment as a whole soon, or it will bite you in the ass.In fact, it already has.And yes, I hate freedom, if it wipes out thousands of civilians for OIL.Your bullshit government did that. Fuck You.

[Rick Allen]

Originally posted by pflo
Oh so youre one of the boneheads!! TOBY KEITH?? SAMMYS BUDDY?? Toby Keith can suck it, and so can you.Have you ever looked up the word "Jingoism"? Do it. You are a pathetic victim of it. The US is NOT the only free country in the world, far from it. Switzerland doesnt invade countries. You are EXACTLY the type of yankee brain dead pinhead who believes what theyre told and acts out of fear.Toby Keith..good god...Your country fucked up bad, you are not number one,and you will need an attitude adjustment as a whole soon, or it will bite you in the ass.In fact, it already has.And yes, I hate freedom, if it wipes out thousands of civilians for OIL.Your bullshit government did that. Fuck You.


Originally posted by pflo
Oh so youre one of the boneheads!! TOBY KEITH?? SAMMYS BUDDY?? Toby Keith can suck it, and so can you.Have you ever looked up the word "Jingoism"? Do it. You are a pathetic victim of it. The US is NOT the only free country in the world, far from it. Switzerland doesnt invade countries. You are EXACTLY the type of yankee brain dead pinhead who believes what theyre told and acts out of fear.Toby Keith..good god...Your country fucked up bad, you are not number one,and you will need an attitude adjustment as a whole soon, or it will bite you in the ass.In fact, it already has.And yes, I hate freedom, if it wipes out thousands of civilians for OIL.Your bullshit government did that. Fuck You.

NO, FUCK YOU!!!!!! WE ARE FIGHTING THE ANIMALS WHO DID THIS TO OUR GREAT NATION.

UNITED WE STAND, DEVIDED WE FALL.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Ea6mgRAazk"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Ea6mgRAazk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object>

[FORD]

Don't you have a pedophile to counsel or something?

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by pflo
Its safe to say China would crush you.

safe, maybe. but definitely foolish to say. and clearly wrong. but maybe safe.

[pflo]

Originally posted by Rick Allen
NO, FUCK YOU!!!!!! WE ARE FIGHTING THE ANIMALS WHO DID THIS TO OUR GREAT NATION.

UNITED WE STAND, DEVIDED WE FALL.

<object width="425" height="350"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Ea6mgRAazk"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Ea6mgRAazk" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"></embed></object> HAHAHA!! WHO did WHAT to your great country? Saddam, did he comand those guys to fly the planes? Youve had 4 YEARS to figure this shit out..Fuck, youre dumb.You are one of the sheep I am referring to. Beleive anything the prez says cause, hes THE PREZ!!! Have you ever tried to form your OWN thoughts? Why are so many of you so stupid??. Your comment validates EVERYTHING I said earlier about dumb americans, you give your country a bad name. You are a certified imbecile. goof.....Its just too easy...are you an evangelical, or just a stump dumb redneck? (or a 6 year old)

[pflo]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
safe, maybe. but definitely foolish to say. and clearly wrong. but maybe safe. At least I am clear.

[pflo]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
We need to get out now and make it look like the Iraqis failed. LOL! That's how it's done in Corporate America these days. Rape the company and before it starts to crumble, bail out and let the new guy take the fall.

For this to be a true Halliburton success we need to steal all the oil before we go. LOL! With all due respect, "LOL" should not be used in reference to a democratically sanctioned CIVILIAN slaughter. Actually, scratch the "respect" part....

[FORD]

I think it goes without saying that both of our "new arrivals" in this thread won't be sticking around too long.......

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by FORD
I think it goes without saying that both of our "new arrivals" in this thread won't be sticking around too long.......

Not if I can help it. :D

[Nitro Express]

Originally posted by pflo
Why not impeach the fucker? You can, ya know.I thought you yanks had balls. (and Michaeal Moore is a self important fat fuck hippocrite pathetic liar-for the record-). Bush is a MURDERER,COWARD and a LIAR. He duped anyone that voted for him and put your nation into the shitter.I never thought I would see that day. America was a great country, but if the voting population is DUMB enough to re elect that fuckwad , Im sorry, you guys are in trouble. The roman empire is crumbling.Its like giving the keys to a Mack truck to a drunk ten year old. Get on it, impeach the fucker. HE LIED TO YOU .

Because that would make Dick Chenney president and he is the puppet master. We might as well put the resources it would take to impeach Bush to a more productive use.

[Nitro Express]

Originally posted by pflo
With all due respect, "LOL" should not be used in reference to a democratically sanctioned CIVILIAN slaughter. Actually, scratch the "respect" part....

Civilian slaughter was going on in Iraq before we got there. Not that I'm saying going on the wild easter egg hunt for weapons of mass destruction was a good idea, but at least we got rid of Saddam Hussain and his psycho sons so the place can fall into a Sunni and Shite civil war and the neighboring countries take advantage of the power vaccume.

The Mission was Accomplished. There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq what the Bush Administration fails to point out is there never was.

[Ellyllions]

First off, Impeachment? How did that go for Bill Clinton? Impeachment don't mean SHIT.

Secondly, there is no "cut-and-run" with getting out of Iraq, just as there is no "win" in Iraq. It's not a war at this point. There is no uniformed enemy claiming areas of victory. There is no "front line" to speak of only various areas of violence. Our troops are running around "putting out fires" and the getting from one "fire" to another is where they're getting killed. Our soldiers being baited and no one can figure out the MO or the pattern because there isn't one. It's so random because there are a number of factions baiting them all at the same time.

Thirdly, (God help me for even posting this) Saddam <I> thought</I> he had WMD. His administration lied to him that they'd discontinued working on the weapons because they were afraid he'd have them and their families executed. They stopped working on them because when the threat of invasion became "too real" many of his workerrs abandoned post leaving the mouth pieces to bear the brunt of his punishment if he ever found out. And this happened YEARS ago. Plus, they all thought that Iran would trample in again if word spread that they didn't have the weapons. So, they kept recycling the same old documents when the UN required proof of weapons and materials destruction, Saddam stood firm believing that he had the resources to defeat the Coalition once and for all when they invaded. And yes he thought he was going to do this for the ENTIRE Muslim world. He literally thought that he'd be exhaulted and become the entire Muslim Middle East ruler. The Supreme Leader of a HUGE population of people even in other countries.

And finally, yes we're in a shitty cituation in Iraq and Afghanistan. That's the ONLY part of MM's tirade that I can agree with. And yes, it's time to get out. But I'm not completely convinced that it didn't go as planned for the Muslim warriors over there right now. In my opinion, they had a win-win scenerio where we freed up the single Middle Eastern country with the richest oil reserves in the world for their control. Iraq is a boundary line for 2 factions of Muslims that hate each other, so it would stand to reason that it would be the perfect battle ground to finish the Sunni/Shiite conflict as well as make the "infedels" look like fools.

But I have my own shitty opinion of Michael Moore and it has NOTHING to do with Rep vs. Dem. He's tried to be the John Lennon of our generation and he's done a pretty good job of it. But I despise John Lennon as well. Both used a double-standard practice to prey on the ignorance of the American public. Talking peace yet doing things that confuse and attempt to incite violence all the while condemning those same practices by anyone else.

Moore would've gotten my ear a long time ago if he had shown some grace and candor as well as a shred of dignity in making his points. But he didn't. He's made disrespectful comments about "common folk" and snickered like a mischevious child about his actions. I wouldn't spit on that man's grave. My spit would feel wasted.

[Lqskdiver]

Originally posted by FORD
Sunday, November 26th, 2006
Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do ...a letter from Michael Moore

Friends,

Tomorrow marks the day that we will have been in Iraq longer than we were in all of World War II.

That's right. We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany, Mussolini, and the entire Japanese empire in LESS time than it's taken the world's only superpower to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.

And we haven't even done THAT. After 1,347 days, in the same time it took us to took us to sweep across North Africa, storm the beaches of Italy, conquer the South Pacific, and liberate all of Western Europe, we cannot, after over 3 and 1/2 years, even take over a single highway and protect ourselves from a homemade device of two tin cans placed in a pothole. No wonder the cab fare from the airport into Baghdad is now running around $35,000 for the 25-minute ride. And that doesn't even include a friggin' helmet.

Is this utter failure the fault of our troops? Hardly. That's because no amount of troops or choppers or democracy shot out of the barrel of a gun is ever going to "win" the war in Iraq. It is a lost war, lost because it never had a right to be won, lost because it was started by men who have never been to war, men who hide behind others sent to fight and die.

Let's listen to what the Iraqi people are saying, according to a recent poll conducted by the University of Maryland:

** 71% of all Iraqis now want the U.S. out of Iraq.

** 61% of all Iraqis SUPPORT insurgent attacks on U.S. troops.

Yes, the vast majority of Iraqi citizens believe that our soldiers should be killed and maimed! So what the hell are we still doing there? Talk about not getting the hint.

There are many ways to liberate a country. Usually the residents of that country rise up and liberate themselves. That's how we did it. You can also do it through nonviolent, mass civil disobedience. That's how India did it. You can get the world to boycott a regime until they are so ostracized they capitulate. That's how South Africa did it. Or you can just wait them out and, sooner or later, the king's legions simply leave (sometimes just because they're too cold). That's how Canada did it.

The one way that DOESN'T work is to invade a country and tell the people, "We are here to liberate you!" -- when they have done NOTHING to liberate themselves. Where were all the suicide bombers when Saddam was oppressing them? Where were the insurgents planting bombs along the roadside as the evildoer Saddam's convoy passed them by? I guess ol' Saddam was a cruel despot -- but not cruel enough for thousands to risk their necks. "Oh no, Mike, they couldn't do that! Saddam would have had them killed!" Really? You don't think King George had any of the colonial insurgents killed? You don't think Patrick Henry or Tom Paine were afraid? That didn't stop them. When tens of thousands aren't willing to shed their own blood to remove a dictator, that should be the first clue that they aren't going to be willing participants when you decide you're going to do the liberating for them.

A country can HELP another people overthrow a tyrant (that's what the French did for us in our revolution), but after you help them, you leave. Immediately. The French didn't stay and tell us how to set up our government. They didn't say, "we're not leaving because we want your natural resources." They left us to our own devices and it took us six years before we had an election. And then we had a bloody civil war. That's what happens, and history is full of these examples. The French didn't say, "Oh, we better stay in America, otherwise they're going to kill each other over that slavery issue!"

The only way a war of liberation has a chance of succeeding is if the oppressed people being liberated have their own citizens behind them -- and a group of Washingtons, Jeffersons, Franklins, Ghandis and Mandellas leading them. Where are these beacons of liberty in Iraq? This is a joke and it's been a joke since the beginning. Yes, the joke's been on us, but with 655,000 Iraqis now dead as a result of our invasion (source: Johns Hopkins University), I guess the cruel joke is on them. At least they've been liberated, permanently.

So I don't want to hear another word about sending more troops (wake up, America, John McCain is bonkers), or "redeploying" them, or waiting four months to begin the "phase-out." There is only one solution and it is this: Leave. Now. Start tonight. Get out of there as fast as we can. As much as people of good heart and conscience don't want to believe this, as much as it kills us to accept defeat, there is nothing we can do to undo the damage we have done. What's happened has happened. If you were to drive drunk down the road and you killed a child, there would be nothing you could do to bring that child back to life. If you invade and destroy a country, plunging it into a civil war, there isn’t much you can do ‘til the smoke settles and blood is mopped up. Then maybe you can atone for the atrocity you have committed and help the living come back to a better life.

The Soviet Union got out of Afghanistan in 36 weeks. They did so and suffered hardly any losses as they left. They realized the mistake they had made and removed their troops. A civil war ensued. The bad guys won. Later, we overthrew the bad guys and everybody lived happily ever after. See! It all works out in the end!

The responsibility to end this war now falls upon the Democrats. Congress controls the purse strings and the Constitution says only Congress can declare war. Mr. Reid and Ms. Pelosi now hold the power to put an end to this madness. Failure to do so will bring the wrath of the voters. We aren't kidding around, Democrats, and if you don't believe us, just go ahead and continue this war another month. We will fight you harder than we did the Republicans. The opening page of my website has a photo of Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid, each made up by a collage of photos of the American soldiers who have died in Bush's War. But it is now about to become the Bush/Democratic Party War unless swift action is taken.

This is what we demand:

1. Bring the troops home now. Not six months from now. NOW. Quit looking for a way to win. We can't win. We've lost. Sometimes you lose. This is one of those times. Be brave and admit it.

2. Apologize to our soldiers and make amends. Tell them we are sorry they were used to fight a war that had NOTHING to do with our national security. We must commit to taking care of them so that they suffer as little as possible. The mentally and physically maimed must get the best care and significant financial compensation. The families of the deceased deserve the biggest apology and they must be taken care of for the rest of their lives.

3. We must atone for the atrocity we have perpetuated on the people of Iraq. There are few evils worse than waging a war based on a lie, invading another country because you want what they have buried under the ground. Now many more will die. Their blood is on our hands, regardless for whom we voted. If you pay taxes, you have contributed to the three billion dollars a week now being spent to drive Iraq into the hellhole it's become. When the civil war is over, we will have to help rebuild Iraq. We can receive no redemption until we have atoned.

In closing, there is one final thing I know. We Americans are better than what has been done in our name. A majority of us were upset and angry after 9/11 and we lost our minds. We didn't think straight and we never looked at a map. Because we are kept stupid through our pathetic education system and our lazy media, we knew nothing of history. We didn't know that WE were the ones funding and arming Saddam for many years, including those when he massacred the Kurds. He was our guy. We didn't know what a Sunni or a Shiite was, never even heard the words. Eighty percent of our young adults (according to National Geographic) were not able to find Iraq on the map. Our leaders played off our stupidity, manipulated us with lies, and scared us to death.

But at our core we are a good people. We may be slow learners, but that "Mission Accomplished" banner struck us as odd, and soon we began to ask some questions. Then we began to get smart. By this past November 7th, we got mad and tried to right our wrongs. The majority now know the truth. The majority now feel a deep sadness and guilt and a hope that somehow we can make make it all right again.

Unfortunately, we can't. So we will accept the consequences of our actions and do our best to be there should the Iraqi people ever dare to seek our help in the future. We ask for their forgiveness.

We demand the Democrats listen to us and get out of Iraq now.

Yours,

Michael Moore
www.michaelmoore.com
mmflint@aol.com

Link (http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=202)

I'm sorry, but taking the advise from a hack filmmaker(and he is a hack) is just not gonna happen. He is entitled to his opinions, rants, criticizm and speeches, but ultimately he does not dictate policy.

Yes we have been in this war longer that WWII, but then again, I think the support for this one differs vastly from the prior. No real big secret. Also, we are also fighting a political battle with various sects and still trying to leave a country intact.

I don't think dropping a few Hiroshima bombs is gonna go down well if we want to end this war.

I don't see the Dems running to the door to make this happen eitherr.

It seems they are already breaking their promises on the 911 commission implementations. Big suprise.
:rolleyes:

[Lqskdiver]

Besides....

When was cut and run ever considered brave??

I see why Moore decided to do the Columbine documentary. It highlights his life as a vicitm of school bullies who had no choice but to hide in libraries and the school film classes to avoid daily beatings.

What a spineless gutless coward!

:heyfu:

[FORD]

Originally posted by Lqskdiver
Besides....

When was cut and run ever considered brave??



You guys didn't have a problem with Reagan doing so in Beruit, 1982 after Hezbollah blew up the Marine barracks.

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by FORD
You guys didn't have a problem with Reagan doing so in Beruit, 1982 after Hezbollah blew up the Marine barracks.

It's all about negotiaton savvy and being willing to kick some ass.
Reagan was both.

Reagan had strikes planned against Iran but they were cancelled by Cap Weinberger because it was thought at the time they would harm relations with Arab states. Ron (our greatest President...RIP) approved.

To France's credit, they DID bomb Iranian Revolutionary Guard positions. Francois Mitterrand was no Jock She-rock.

:gulp:

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
It's all about negotiaton savvy and being willing to kick some ass.
Reagan was both.

Reagan had strikes planned against Iran but they were cancelled by Cap Weinberger because it was thought at the time they would harm relations with Arab states. Ron (our greatest President...RIP) approved.

To France's credit, they DID bomb Iranian Revolutionary Guard positions. Francois Mitterrand was no Jock She-rock.

:gulp:

LOL Nice bvllshit defense of the Gipper, but there was never any plan to hit Iran, and you know it...

Must be fun to make up complete nonsense and revise history freely?

[pflo]

Originally posted by Nitro Express
Civilian slaughter was going on in Iraq before we got there. Not that I'm saying going on the wild easter egg hunt for weapons of mass destruction was a good idea, but at least we got rid of Saddam Hussain and his psycho sons so the place can fall into a Sunni and Shite civil war and the neighboring countries take advantage of the power vaccume.

The Mission was Accomplished. There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq what the Bush Administration fails to point out is there never was. If the mission was accomplished, why are you still there (for 3 more years)? Havent got the pipelines secured,THATS why. Its all bullshit, if the US truly only wanted saddam out, they could have sniped him and covered the tracks,the CIA lives for that shit. To go in there KNOWING it would kill several thousands in the process (as it did, over 20 000) and that given the three ethnicities hate each other and civil war would probably emerge, and that way more dumb islamofreakazoids would get pissed off enough to join the fight against americans, well, that was about the worst thing bush could have possibly done. That bush is one dumb fucker.....too bad there were a lot of dumb fucker voters again in 2004.

[pflo]

Originally posted by FORD
In a way, the "Iraqis" did fail. Because once Saddam was gone, they failed to be "Iraqis", which was a false designation invented by the British Empire when they created "Iraq" literally from nothing.

I'm sure neither a Shia, a Sunni, and certainly not a Kurd would admit to being an "Iraqi" today. BANG ON....no one mentions that, that Iraq was a creation of the west. And a US ally , even under saddam , for almost 20 years.

[pflo]

.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
LOL Nice bvllshit defense of the Gipper, but there was never any plan to hit Iran, and you know it...

Must be fun to make up complete nonsense and revise history freely?

BTW, the only US President that actively talked about invading Iran with ground troops was:



















































































































William Jefferson Clinton (in 1996, after the Khobar Towers were bombed)