Gotta question

[Ellyllions]

Heard an interesting intro yesterday. Didn't catch the full story as I just heard it on tv while I was making dinner.

Something about a statement getting ready to come out of Al Queda. And the title of the upcoming statement is: Al Queda vs. Atheism

Admittedly I don't know a WHOLE lot about Islam, but do you suppose that Muslims think that all of us who are NOT Muslim are aethiests?

[knuckleboner]

eh. i'm sure some do. probably, in as much as we don't believe in the right god.

there are definitely some Christians who take this tact, too.

(it's probably the universal trait of most religions; if you don't believe in their specific deity, you're damned...)

[FORD]

As far as the Muslims are concerned, an infidel is an infidel. And an infidel is anyone who doesn't accept Mohammed as God's number one dude.

Now on the other hand, BCE propagandists would love to blame atheists (along with liberals and queers) for "Al Qaeda's" alleged hatred of our (rapidly evaporating) freedoms.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
eh. i'm sure some do. probably, in as much as we don't believe in the right god.

there are definitely some Christians who take this tact, too.

(it's probably the universal trait of most religions; if you don't believe in their specific deity, you're damned...)


See also: ELVIS, Warham, Brie, et al.

[LoungeMachine]

New Al Qaeda Message Expected As Terror Anxieties Already High in Europe


New Al Qaeda Message Expected As Terror Anxieties Already High in Europe
December 18, 2006 11:53 AM

Hoda Osman Reports:

With European law enforcement officials warning of an imminent holiday terror attack, Web sites associated with al Qaeda announced today that the group's second-in-command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, is about to issue a new statement entitled "the truths about the clash between Islam and atheism."

According to the Associated Press, John Reid, Britain's top law enforcement official, said Sunday that it was "highly likely" that terrorists would attempt to mount an attack over the holiday period, when the number of travelers swells. He gave no other details.

The head of Britain's domestic spy agency MI5, Dame Eliza Manningham-Buller, has said her agents are tracking almost 30 terrorist plots involving 1,600 suspects, and that at least five major terror plots had been thwarted since the July 2005 transit bomb attacks in London.

Al Zawahiri's last 11 statements were video releases. The last we heard from al Zawahiri was about two months ago at the end of September. In that statement, Zawahiri pontificated about the new Pope and the crisis in Darfur.



»

[VanHalener]

If I open The Church of Van Halen are any of you going to attend my saturday evening services?

[BigBadBrian]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
there are definitely some Christians who take this tact, too.


Yes, I agree with this. :eek:

There is only ONE TRUE GOD: The Father, The Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit.


If you believe (or don't believe) in anything else, I would say you are a heathen.

Most real believers of other religions feel the same way.

After all, how can you believe in something and still believe others that profess faith in something else can be correct?


:cool:

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Yes, I agree with this. :eek:

There is only ONE TRUE GOD: The Father, The Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit.


If you believe (or don't believe) in anything else, I would say you are a heathen.

Most real believers of other religions feel the same way.

After all, how can you believe in something and still believe others that profess faith in something else can be correct?


:cool:

eh, i guess it depends. i believe in an all-loving God (as i believe you do, too...;)).

but i find it a little hard to believe that the Jesus who ministers to sinners and samaritans would turn around and deny entry to heaven to a kind, generous, caring hindu. (or would want me to do the same.)

we're talking about the God who refused to cast the first stone, after all...

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
but i find it a little hard to believe that the Jesus who ministers to sinners and samaritans would turn around and deny entry to heaven to a kind, generous, caring hindu.


Well, that's exactly what he will do...

He said "I am the truth, the way, and the life."

What part do you not understand...


BTW, Most Muslims think of "us" as Christians as well as infadels. Not atheists...

[Ellyllions]

Why can't they all be right in some form or fashion?
It was still a big world 2000 years ago. Why can't my God be Islams God?

[ELVIS]

Because Islam denies Jesus Christ as the savior and the Son of God...

[Ellyllions]

Supposedly Muhammad came after Jesus, right?

But that still doesn't make us Aethiests. Unless they're saying that their rules are the only ones that God will acknowlege?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Supposedly Muhammad came after Jesus, right?

But that still doesn't make us Aethiests. Unless they're saying that their rules are the only ones that God will acknowlege?

Their "rules" say "There is no god but Allah, and Mohammed is His prophet".

That doesn't leave a lot of room for interpretation. But just like Brian's explanation of what he considers "Christianity", anyone not following the doctrine is a "heathen". And people who follow that narrow minded of a doctrine don't see any difference between a non-believer and a "wrong" believer.

And yes, Mohammed came about 600 years after Jesus.

[Ellyllions]

So, Muhammed was sent and he sat down with the "fellas" and said, "M'kay, God's pretty pissed about Jesus getting killed. So he's changed a few things around see. He wants us to kill everyone who doesn't profess me as the new prophet."

The way my grandaddy taught me is that Islam came about because of Abraham's pregnant handmaid. Grampa didn't come out and say that it was a revenge religion, but that's what he was trying to say.

But here's the kicker for me. If Allah/God happen to be the same, how can Muslims see us as anything other than believers in their God. God is supposed to be the end-all, be-all. I don't think we're supposed to be bickering over which prophet was the true spokesperson. Does that sound crazy to me only?

[FORD]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
So, Muhammed was sent and he sat down with the "fellas" and said, "M'kay, God's pretty pissed about Jesus getting killed. So he's changed a few things around see. He wants us to kill everyone who doesn't profess me as the new prophet."

The way my grandaddy taught me is that Islam came about because of Abraham's pregnant handmaid. Grampa didn't come out and say that it was a revenge religion, but that's what he was trying to say.

But here's the kicker for me. If Allah/God happen to be the same, how can Muslims see us as anything other than believers in their God. God is supposed to be the end-all, be-all. I don't think we're supposed to be bickering over which prophet was the true spokesperson. Does that sound crazy to me only?

Actually, I don't think it sounds crazy at all. Jesus himself actually said it would happen in one of His parables.........

from Luke chapter 20

....And Jesus said unto them, Neither tell I you by what authority I do these things.

Then began he to speak to the people this parable; A certain man planted a vineyard, and let it forth to husbandmen, and went into a far country for a long time.

And at the season he sent a servant to the husbandmen, that they should give him of the fruit of the vineyard: but the husbandmen beat him, and sent him away empty.

And again he sent another servant: and they beat him also, and entreated him shamefully, and sent him away empty.

And again he sent a third: and they wounded him also, and cast him out.

Then said the lord of the vineyard, What shall I do? I will send my beloved son: it may be they will reverence him when they see him.

But when the husbandmen saw him, they reasoned among themselves, saying, This is the heir: come, let us kill him, that the inheritance may be ours.

So they cast him out of the vineyard, and killed him. What therefore shall the lord of the vineyard do unto them?

He shall come and destroy these husbandmen, and shall give the vineyard to others. And when they heard it, they said, God forbid.

This refers to the prophets whom God sent to the Jews, the descendants of Abraham's son Isaac. They rejected and killed many of these prophets, up to and including God's own Son.

40 years after Jesus was crucified, and soon after His apostles had been rounded up and executed as well, the Romans crushed the Jews and kicked them out of their own land. Eventually it was populated by those who would become Muslims, the descendants of Abraham's other son Ishmael.

So when one looks at Jesus' own parable, it would seem that He predicted the coming of the Islamic religion. Which makes it unlikely that He would condemn it.

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Well, that's exactly what he will do...

He said "I am the truth, the way, and the life."

What part do you not understand...




the part where a loving God cares more about ego and rules than about people.

you believe in the sacrament of confession, right? where the most vile of humans can confess his sins and, if it's an honest confession, die right afterwards and go to heaven. despite having done nothing of value or morality to his fellow humans his entire life.

yet i'm supposed to believe that my all-loving God will damn for all eternity a pious shintoist, who ministered to sick kids and throughout his entire life always tried to led a moral existence, simply because he didn't believe in Jesus?


seems more like a petty, vengeful God. doesn't sound too much like the example Jesus set.


(and how do we know that God doesn't offer confession to well-meaning atheists right after their deaths?...)

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Well, that's exactly what he will do...

He said "I am the truth, the way, and the life."

What part do you not understand...



What part of that says FOLLOW ME OR GO TO HELL?

moron:rolleyes:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by knuckleboner
the part where a loving God cares more about ego and rules than about people.

you believe in the sacrament of confession, right? where the most vile of humans can confess his sins and, if it's an honest confession, die right afterwards and go to heaven. despite having done nothing of value or morality to his fellow humans his entire life.

yet i'm supposed to believe that my all-loving God will damn for all eternity a pious shintoist, who ministered to sick kids and throughout his entire life always tried to led a moral existence, simply because he didn't believe in Jesus?


seems more like a petty, vengeful God. doesn't sound too much like the example Jesus set.


(and how do we know that God doesn't offer confession to well-meaning atheists right after their deaths?...)


A-FUCKING-MEN


Exactly what I've been saying all along:cool:

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Ellyllions



The way my grandaddy taught me is that Islam came about because of Abraham's pregnant handmaid.


By the name of HAGAR :D

[Lqskdiver]

Nice catch, Lounge.

[ELVIS]

FORD, you need a local body of Christ...

The rest of you, I don't know what you need...

Getting on your knees and begging God for forgiveness wuold be a good place to start...


:elvis:

[FORD]

Originally posted by ELVIS
FORD, you need a local body of Christ...

The rest of you, I don't know what you need...

Getting on your knees and begging God for forgiveness wuold be a good place to start...


:elvis:

I just can't "do" church in the conventional way. That's not where the Spirit comes to me.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
FORD, you need a local body of Christ...

The rest of you, I don't know what you need...

Getting on your knees and begging God for forgiveness wuold be a good place to start...


:elvis:

Is this what you meant when you claimed to have found God [yet again] and now are doing His work?

:rolleyes:

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
FORD, you need a local body of Christ...

The rest of you, I don't know what you need...

Getting on your knees and begging God for forgiveness wuold be a good place to start...


:elvis:

For what exactly?

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
New Al Qaeda Message Expected As Terror Anxieties Already High in Europe


New Al Qaeda Message Expected As Terror Anxieties Already High in Europe
December 18, 2006 11:53 AM

Hoda Osman Reports:

With European law enforcement officials warning of an imminent holiday terror attack, Web sites associated with al Qaeda announced today that the group's second-in-command, Ayman al-Zawahiri, is about to issue a new statement entitled "the truths about the clash between Islam and atheism."

According to the Associated Press, John Reid, Britain's top law enforcement official, said Sunday that it was "highly likely" that terrorists would attempt to mount an attack over the holiday period, when the number of travelers swells. He gave no other details.

The head of Britain's domestic spy agency MI5, Dame Eliza Manningham-Buller, has said her agents are tracking almost 30 terrorist plots involving 1,600 suspects, and that at least five major terror plots had been thwarted since the July 2005 transit bomb attacks in London.

Al Zawahiri's last 11 statements were video releases. The last we heard from al Zawahiri was about two months ago at the end of September. In that statement, Zawahiri pontificated about the new Pope and the crisis in Darfur.



»

Did we not get this threat in 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004 and last year?

Fuck them.

I hate the language our politicians use.

'Very Likely' every fucking year?

And what exactly are we meant to do or feel about these unspecified 'threats'? Feel stressed? That's all you can do. Fuck the terrorists but especially fuck the politicians that come out with this crap helping them terrorise.

Pricks.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by FORD
As far as the Muslims are concerned, an infidel is an infidel. And an infidel is anyone who doesn't accept Mohammed as God's number one dude.

Now on the other hand, BCE propagandists would love to blame atheists (along with liberals and queers) for "Al Qaeda's" alleged hatred of our (rapidly evaporating) freedoms.

As I understand it Mohammed said that Jesus was a great prophet but faked the resurection in a David Blaine style stunt. He is the true prophet because even though he was illiterate and fucked children, god gave him a flying horse to visit heaven in.

I can't put into words the contempt I have for this bullshit.

Fundie Islamists do have a lot more in common with Elvis and the rest than they do with atheists though...

Cheers!

:gulp:

[ELVIS]

Originally posted by FORD
I just can't "do" church in the conventional way. That's not where the Spirit comes to me.

Oh, C'mon...

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by ELVIS


Getting on your knees and begging God for forgiveness wuold be a good place to start...


:elvis:

for what? for not believing that he'll damn all infidels, regardless of whether or not they otherwise led good lives?

is that really how Jesus Christ lived His life?...

[Seshmeister]

If you were the supreme being and created the universe why in the name of cunt would your overiding cuntcern be that people worship and praise you whilst at the same time doing fuck all to help them and giving the impression via scientific evidence that you don't exist?

If your god existed he would be a complete asshole practical joker.

[Ellyllions]

Well, here's where I get tripped up in all of this.

I suspect that one of the reasons we could be considered aethiests by Islam is because we're not executing homosexuals, aethiests, and other things that are strictly forbidden in their faith. I'm guessing that this "speech" will be pointed at the fact that they can't accept us because we don't do "God's work" as they see fit. Besides the issue of Muhammed.

Their own faith as it is written is supposed to be peaceful.

I can't imagine what could've happened if Jim Jones had the kind of money and following that Islam has.

[ELVIS]

Isaiah 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.

Proverbs 21:8 The way of man is froward and strange: but as for the pure, his work is right.

Jeremiah 6:16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.


:elvis:

[WARF]

ELVIS, I think it's time to drop the stripper in the signature... and the gun totin' ELVIS trademark smiley. :D

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by ELVIS

Proverbs 21:2 Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.



:elvis:

i don't know about you, but this kind of statement leads me to believe that God cares a little more about how you lived your life, then whether or not you followed rule 5, paragraph 2 of the manual on how to worship the correct god...

[knuckleboner]

Originally posted by Ellyllions
Well, here's where I get tripped up in all of this.

I suspect that one of the reasons we could be considered aethiests by Islam is because we're not executing homosexuals, aethiests, and other things that are strictly forbidden in their faith. I'm guessing that this "speech" will be pointed at the fact that they can't accept us because we don't do "God's work" as they see fit. Besides the issue of Muhammed.

Their own faith as it is written is supposed to be peaceful.

I can't imagine what could've happened if Jim Jones had the kind of money and following that Islam has.


eh...my guess is it's also translation. most fundamentalists classify people in terms of believer and non-believer, based strictly on whether or not the people believe in the specific tenants of that particular faith.

for all we know, the original, arabic mentions al qaeda vs. non-believers, but so-and-so who translated it assumed it meant atheists.


in the end, it's probably semantics. (right, sesh? that should appeal to you as both a barrister AND an atheist...;))

[Seshmeister]

:)

To me it's all pretty simple with the Koran and the Bible.

If you follow it word for word then it's evil immoral inconsistent and just plain scientifiically wrong.

If you pick and choose then it's obviously not a fundamental truth or word of a god. Without the bible or the koran then these belief systems fall to bits because that's all they've got.

There is trouble in the Sesh household at the moment. The SM who is agnostic wants to take our oldest(3 years old) to the Watchnight Christmas Eve service. I'm saying if she wants to give her some superstition why not just take her to the local fucking mosque or scientology hall.

Her argument back is that I'm willing to put up with the Santa thing and it's all about the magic of Xmas so what's the harm and that they don't celebrate Xmas at those places?

But if I indoctrinate the kids telling them that there is no God then is that wrong too because it's imposing my stuff on them before they are smart enough to work it out just like the religionists do.

It's all a bit tricky and shows how religions have spread like a virus over generations...

Cheers!

:gulp:

[scamper]

Let people believe what they want, it's what makes the world go round.

[Seshmeister]

No it's not.

There is no force that causes the planets to rotate. Most of the rotation comes about from the conservation of angular momentum. Angular momentum is given by L=m*w*r2 where m is the mass, w is the angular velocity in radians per second, and r is the radius of the circular motion. Due to conservation of angular momentum, if the radius of the orbit decreases, then its angular velocity must increase (as the mass is constant).

All planetary and stellar systems are born from the collapse of dense interstellar clouds. The clouds may originally be very large (even thousands of light years across). Consider a portion of the cloud the collapses from a size of a light year or so to the size of the solar system. That is a huge change in the size of the system. So, the very slight rotation that the cloud has in the beginning is increased dramatically when the collapse takes place. In fact, this is one of the barriers in star formation: there is excess angular momentum and there has to be a way of losing angular momentum before you can form a star.

Anyway, the bottom line is that stars like the Sun spin from the original angular momentum that was there in the solar nebula from which it formed. Not only that, all orbital motion of the planets (including the spin) is due to this orginal angular momentum.

[ELVIS]

And it all happened by chance, correct ??

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
And it all happened by chance, correct ??

Why are the only choices to you GOD or "by chance"????

There is NO other possibility that comes to your narrow mind?

That explains alot.

Merry XMas

[Dr. Love]

Given the definition of athiesm, I would tend to think that Al Qaeda don't believe that we're athiests.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
And it all happened by chance, correct ??

Evolution is the opposite of chance.

[ELVIS]

So, all the building blocks of life just happened to be at the right place at the right time for "evolution" to begin...

By chance...

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by ELVIS
So, all the building blocks of life just happened to be at the right place at the right time for "evolution" to begin...

By chance...

It was all done by a giant tortoise, stupid.



:rolleyes:

[Dr. Love]

Originally posted by ELVIS
So, all the building blocks of life just happened to be at the right place at the right time for "evolution" to begin...

By chance...

And if that's so? You don't even know if that "chance" is slim or large.

[nosuchluck]

Originally posted by FORD
As far as the Muslims are concerned, an infidel is an infidel. And an infidel is anyone who doesn't accept Mohammed as God's number one dude.


'Infidel' is a word you'd probably only hear an extremist or fundamentalist say (which is probably what you meant anyway). Most Muslims are tolerant and respectful of other religions - it's too bad that the general image of Islam in N.America and Europe is based on what some dumbfuck extremist in the Middle East said.

And Muslims do recognize the relation between Christianity and Islam, as well as respect a majority of Biblical figures.

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by ELVIS
So, all the building blocks of life just happened to be at the right place at the right time for "evolution" to begin...

By chance...

Unlike the primative and totally dodgy writings of the bible, you've finally stumbled across the only argument for a creator that has any sort of running in it.

I would argue back two things.

1) The puddle argument. What are the chances of the water in a puddle in a hole in the road being the exact same size as the irregular hole? Of course that's a dumb question because it is coming from the total wrong angle. It's like the thing of saying it's a billion to one for life to start on a planet. The planet needs to be in the exact right place, the three bears theory not too hot not too cold and it needs a moon to stablise it's orbit. Most stars are binary i.e. two suns and they tend to then have too wild orbits to support life because they fuck with each other gravitationally.

Fine.

But this is where the big numbers thing comes in, in the same way as evolution being difficult to grasp because of the millions of years involved.

The current estimate for the number of planets in the universe is a billion billion. That's an insanely big number. That means that if it's a billion to one for life to develop on a planet then there are a billion planets that fit the bill.

If the universe was small and there were a hundred or so stars I think you would have to go with the creator thing because it would be insanely unlikely otherwise. But it isn't. Asking about the 999 999 999 billion dead planets is a non issue because there is noone to ask about the universe on those planets. The fact you are here as a lifeform is just the way it is. If you were a triple eared giant bug made of spaghetti then you would be asking why all the ears? There must be a god because the chances of being made of a spaghetti substance is so low. It's coming at the whole thing from the wrong angle beacause all of this science stuff with huge numbers is totally alien to our brains. Remember that as mammals we have evolved to live in pretty smal groups and to eat and fuck. In evolutionary terms it's only very very very recently we have had to think about stuff like this and our brains aren't naturally good at it.

2) A god creator theory solves absolutely nothing. It doesn't answer any question at all because as I said earlier if so 'Who or what created this god?'. A super creator? Who craeted that? A super super creator? You are totally back where you started except now you have to explain a really complex thing appearing from nowhere as a better explanation than simple things very slowly evolving over time.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Dr. Love]

I believe the term you are looking for is "super-duper creator".

[Angel]

Originally posted by nosuchluck
'Infidel' is a word you'd probably only hear an extremist or fundamentalist say (which is probably what you meant anyway). Most Muslims are tolerant and respectful of other religions - it's too bad that the general image of Islam in N.America and Europe is based on what some dumbfuck extremist in the Middle East said.

And Muslims do recognize the relation between Christianity and Islam, as well as respect a majority of Biblical figures.

THANK YOU! I read the biography of Mohamed this summer, and it's amazing the similarities between the two religions...and yes, the true meaning of infidel is what we would refer to as atheists - those who don't believe in one true God.

Unfortunately, here in N. America and Europe we confuse Islamic Customs with early tribal customs, so we don't realize the similarities in the two.

By the way, Elvis... Islams believe in the same fucking God as you do, and that JC was a prophet. They do not believe in the resurrection of Christ, however they do believe that God sent a magical stairway that JC used to get to heaven with. There is a temple in Syria where JC is supposed to return when he comes back for his battle with Satan.

I believe you Christians call it the Apocolypsis.

On another note... SESH:

We never exposed our son to any religions either. As a teenager, he explored different "religions" and attended Mosques, Temples, Longhouses (native american), etc, and was able to make up his own mind about spirituality and religion.... it's all bullshit - although he does hold a certain amount of respect for native spirituality.

[Guitar Shark]

Originally posted by ELVIS
Proverbs 21:8 The way of man is froward and strange


http://www.fluxw.com/moss1.jpg

[Seshmeister]

Originally posted by Angel
THANK YOU! I read the biography of Mohamed this summer, and it's amazing the similarities between the two religions...and yes, the true meaning of infidel is what we would refer to as atheists - those who don't believe in one true God.

Unfortunately, here in N. America and Europe we confuse Islamic Customs with early tribal customs, so we don't realize the similarities in the two.

By the way, Elvis... Islams believe in the same fucking God as you do, and that JC was a prophet. They do not believe in the resurrection of Christ, however they do believe that God sent a magical stairway that JC used to get to heaven with. There is a temple in Syria where JC is supposed to return when he comes back for his battle with Satan.


Don't forget the flying horse and pedophilia!

Because Islam came after Christianity it used it's success as a way to give a step up for Islam.

Its the same as the Christian superstition adopting a lot of the Jewish hocum, it's easier to indoctrinate people if you are just adding bullshit as opposed to creating a completely new nonsense.

Compare Mormons and Scientology. Both utter cock talk but mormans are laughed at less because they added to the Jesus story rather than starting a whole new mythology.

Cheers!

:gulp:

[Angel]

I still think us damn atheists are the ones that have it right.... you agree, Sesh?

;)

[Seshmeister]

I believe the term you are looking for is "super-duper creator".


Reading some old threads and that made me laugh out loud.

Great line Doc... :D

[Andy Taylor]

From what I can see I'd say Islam is generally a more tolerant religion than Christianity and I also don't believe Jesus will turn someone away because of their religious/spiritual practises. 'I am the way' could just mean he gets to decide who gets in. To me, the existence of different religions, just as the reality of different races, ideologies is God's attempt to put people together to see how they treat each other.

[Pink Spider]

From what I can see I'd say Islam is generally a more tolerant religion than Christianity and I also don't believe Jesus will turn someone away because of their religious/spiritual practises. 'I am the way' could just mean he gets to decide who gets in. To me, the existence of different religions, just as the reality of different races, ideologies is God's attempt to put people together to see how they treat each other.

Or race and religion could be different adaptations to sunlight and regional inaccessibility. Just sayin'.

I don't think that Islam is more tolerant than Christianity by a long shot. If this were an Islamic run country I would have probably been executed for being a vocal female or for my atheism by now. Interpretation of the koran with most Muslims seems to be generally more hard lined than that of Christians and the bible. While it might not be true with all, it seems to be the case that you have more fundamentalists coming from that side than the other.

But, over half of Americans wouldn't vote an atheist into office either! So, things don't look so good for the other side.

Even I thought about voting for a creationist in the last election. Of course, the choices weren't all that good. But, still...

[FORD]

Even I thought about voting for a creationist in the last election. Of course, the choices weren't all that good. But, still...

http://zacharytaylor.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/mike-huckabee-new-hampshire.jpg
The Huckster? :D

[Pink Spider]

No, no. The Paulster.

You see what 2 terms of Bush can do to a person?

I was a staunch socialist before G.W.

Anyway, I ended up voted for Barr...with a lot of regrets.

[LoungeMachine]

Nice to see Pink back in the house....

:gulp:

[Andy Taylor]

Or race and religion could be different adaptations to sunlight and regional inaccessibility. Just sayin'.



If that's all there is to it I wonder why people can't be more easily tolerant of others. 'That brutha over there has been in the sun too long, it's cool with me.'


I don't think that Islam is more tolerant than Christianity by a long shot. If this were an Islamic run country I would have probably been executed for being a vocal female or for my atheism by now. Interpretation of the koran with most Muslims seems to be generally more hard lined than that of Christians and the bible. While it might not be true with all, it seems to be the case that you have more fundamentalists coming from that side than the other.

But, over half of Americans wouldn't vote an atheist into office either! So, things don't look so good for the other side.

Even I thought about voting for a creationist in the last election. Of course, the choices weren't all that good. But, still...

Which only goes to show the ideas people have about the region. Whenever people talk about the women and religion they're talking about either Saudi or Iran, they just don't know it, and they stretch that out to include the whole Muslim world. In Lebanon they have gay and trans bars. Dubai is a very cosmopolitan city. Christians are better? We know what the bible belt is like. In Dubai and another city maybe in Bahrain or Qatar, the shiekhs donate land to build churches. The inaugrations are attended by these same sheikhs. Did you know that? Course not, it's enough to assume their tyrants and be done with it. How many religious Christians would do that? They are FAR more accepting of Christianity than Christians are of Muslims. They consider Christians as believers, but with Christians it's accept Jesus or you're going to hell, there's no other path!

Even at an inter faith 'dialouge' in the Vatican, I believe initated by some Imams, they were willing to compromise by accepting the validity of Christianity but they were told, 'believe that Jesus is the son of God or else.' Regardless of the rise and fall of Middle eastern cultures, on the whole they have been more tolerant than the fire brand Christian preachers.

[Pink Spider]

Which only goes to show the ideas people have about the region. Whenever people talk about the women and religion they're talking about either Saudi or Iran, they just don't know it, and they stretch that out to include the whole Muslim world.

So, you're telling me that women have the same rights in the rest of those countries?


In Lebanon they have gay and trans bars.

Which Christian country bans those? I'm sure there's one at least.


Dubai is a very cosmopolitan city.

No shit. So was Leningrad. So what?


Christians are better? We know what the bible belt is like. In Dubai and another city maybe in Bahrain or Qatar, the shiekhs donate land to build churches. The inaugrations are attended by these same sheikhs. Did you know that? Course not, it's enough to assume their tyrants and be done with it. They are FAR more accepting of Christianity than Christians are of Muslims. They consider Christians as believers, but with Christians it's accept Jesus or you're going to hell, there's no other path!

I didn't say that Christians are much better. Marginally better.
I know about Lebanon and that it is very secular for the middle east. But, I'm just saying that I have less chance of getting killed for my disbelief in the west rather the middle east. Do you really want to debate this?


Even at an inter faith 'dialouge' in the Vatican, I believe initated by some Imams, they were willing to comprise by accepting the validity of Christianity but they were told, 'believe that Jesus is the son of God or else.' Regardless of the rise and fall of Middle eastern cultures, on the whole they have been more tolerant than the fire brand Christian preachers.

Basically you're saying that if you disbelieve in Mohammad, you can still be a Muslim? That's the first I've heard of such a thing.

[FORD]

It's funny that the right wing Jews and right wing Christians both have so much hatred for Iraq, because if you take the Bible literally (as they do) then the Garden of Eden itself was bordered by the Tigris and Euphrates rivers, which would put it in Iraq. And Abraham, who is considered the "founder" of the Jewish faith is clearly described as a "Chaldean" in the scriptures.

The Iraqis also invented beer, which is worthy of respect in and of itself :gulp:

[Andy Taylor]

So, you're telling me that women have the same rights in the rest of those countries?


So, which Christian country bans those? I'm sure there's one at least.



No shit. So was Leningrad. So what?


If this were an Islamic run country I would have probably been executed for being a vocal female or for my atheism by now.


----

I didn't say that Christians are much better. Marginally better.
I know about Lebanon and that it is very secular for the middle east. But, I'm just saying that I have less chance of getting killed for my disbelief in the west rather the middle east. Do you really want to debate this?

A few select Middle Eastern countries. People don't go around killing others because of religion outside of those countries.


So, basically you're saying that if you disbelieve in Mohammad, you can still be a Muslim? That's the first I've heard of such a thing.


Did I say anything about disbelieving in Mohammed? The one path idea really belongs to Christianity.

[Andy Taylor]

The Iraqis also invented beer, which is worthy of respect in and of itself :gulp:

You learn something new everyday.

[binnie]

I judge as I find.

This I will say: all of the Muslims and Sikhs I know are far, far more tolerant, kind, compassionate, family orientated people than many of the friends of mine who profess to be Christian (although that by no means includes all of my Christian friends.)

The notion of an extremist applies to a minority only.

[Pink Spider]

----

A few select Middle Eastern countries. People don't go around killing others because of religion outside of those countries.


I never said that they all did. I was talking about Islamic run countries and not the more secular countries. I agree that there are saner parts of the middle east. There are saner parts of North American too. Like Canada.


Did I say anything about disbelieving in Mohammed? The one path idea really belongs to Christianity.

Of course that comes at a contradiction of it's holy book, but since I don't believe in either, I don't really care. So, therefore I endorse your position on the matter. ;)

[Pink Spider]

I hate 20 minute edit limits. I was going to add:

How many paths are there exactly without tipping the boat over? A lot of Christians will claim that there are many paths while picking and choosing in what they want to believe. If part of something seems immoral or stupid why does the rest of it get credibility?

[Andy Taylor]

[/b]


I never said that they all did. I was talking about Islamic run countries and not the more secular countries. I agree that there are saner parts of the middle east. There are saner parts of North American too. Like Canada.

[/b]

Of course that comes at a contradiction of it's holy book, but since I don't believe in either, I don't really care. So, therefore I endorse your position on the matter. ;)


Half of those countries are Islamic run, especially those church donating ones.


It's not picking and choosing, more like a matter of interpretation. Some will say that Christianity was more spiritual in the older days, it changed with western adoption. Being Christian is no excuse to switch off one's brain and Jesus was one of the people that taught that I believe. Each time a pharisee went for a literal over zealous application of scripture, Jesus would provide a different reading of it, also from scripture. I don't see fundamental 'flaws', but I think people were meant to learn things for themselves. If you simply followed the rules of the bible, that shows no love or real character - a part of holiness. That's why most if not all spiritual people, and even those who don't know it yet have experiences that guide them through scripture. So I think the 'contradictions' in the bible are helping to weed out the zealots and whoever else so that truly only the pure of heart make it through the narrow path... tests in life are not just accidental, and I think they apply here as well.

[Coyote]

Nice to see people are still debating over their favorite version of the fairytale...

So, here's to you.
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Besides, it's ALL about vibrations and resonance... (Might sound a bit "new age" but I'm just posting this to piss you off :D )
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[LoungeMachine]

Evolution is the opposite of chance.

I thought Community Chest was.......


:gulp:

[bueno bob]

I thought Community Chest was.......


:gulp:

Speaking of which, where the Hell is Christian Monopoly?

"In this game, there is no Chance because everything happens for a reason."

[Va Beach VH Fan]

Nobody told it like Carlin, NOBODY....

[Pink Spider]

Speaking of which, where the Hell is Christian Monopoly?

"In this game, there is no Chance because everything happens for a reason."

It's probably too (http://evolvefish.com/fish/GetOutofHellFreeProducts.html) late (http://www.boardgames.com/bibleopoly.html)to patent.

[Andy Taylor]

Nice to see people are still debating over their favorite version of the fairytale...


Besides, it's ALL about vibrations and resonance... (Might sound a bit "new age" but I'm just posting this to piss you off :D )


Oh you'll have to do much better than that to piss me off. I know what's going through your head, you're thinking you're being very cool in laughing at new agers, Christians, hippies etc, all while trying to score points by using clips from comedians. You and Carlin only have yourselves to blame if you're stunted in your growth.

[Blackflag]

Oh you'll have to do much better than that to piss me off. I know what's going through your head, you're thinking you're being very cool in laughing at new agers, Christians, hippies etc, all while trying to score points by using clips from comedians. You and Carlin only have yourselves to blame if you're stunted in your growth.

:cato2:

[LoungeMachine]

Oh you'll have to do much better than that to piss me off. I know what's going through your head, you're thinking you're being very cool in laughing at new agers, Christians, hippies etc, all while trying to score points by using clips from comedians. You and Carlin only have yourselves to blame if you're stunted in your growth.

Don't take it personally, Andy......




we laugh at everybody.

:gulp:

[Blackflag]

Don't take it personally, Andy......




we laugh at everybody.

:gulp:

Except yourselves.

[LoungeMachine]

Except yourselves.

especially ourselves...

If you haven't caught on to that yet, you're thicker than yo momma's discharge. :rolleyes:

This whole place is a fucking self-mocking lubejob, you schmuck.

The sooner you get that, the sooner you'll relax that sphincter of your's.....

:moon:
:stupid:

[Blackflag]

especially ourselves...

If you haven't caught on to that yet, you're thicker than yo momma's discharge. :rolleyes:

This whole place is a fucking self-mocking lubejob, you schmuck.

The sooner you get that, the sooner you'll relax that sphincter of your's.....

:moon:
:stupid:

Keeping telling yourself that...;)

[Andy Taylor]

Don't take it personally, Andy......




we laugh at everybody.

:gulp:

Maybe so, but I wasn't about to let that slide. :p

[LoungeMachine]

Keeping telling yourself that...;)

I will.

And you keep telling Nick to stop talking to you.

:spank:

[Coyote]

Oh you'll have to do much better than that to piss me off. I know what's going through your head, you're thinking you're being very cool in laughing at new agers, Christians, hippies etc, all while trying to score points by using clips from comedians. You and Carlin only have yourselves to blame if you're stunted in your growth.

Can't help it if you don't want to look at things from another perspective...

And if you really do know what's going through my head, my lawyer will be in touch with you for copyright infringement...
















And what the hell does "cool" have anything to do with this?

[Andy Taylor]

Can't help it if you don't want to look at things from another perspective...



Guffaw... maybe it makes it easier for you think I'm a simpleton. I have had many perspectives.

[Coyote]

I'm sure you have.

[Andy Taylor]

Indeed I have. It's amazing what you can learn being away from VH forums.