How Would You Prefer To Leave Iraq?

[Lqskdiver]

With all the whining and back and forth, I'd like to get and idea where most of you feel about Iraq and it's people.

This is just about the region in itself and what options do we currently have. Whether we evacuate or reinforce the troops, this has an affect on what the outcome of the regions stability is going be like in the next coming years.

[Lqskdiver]

I'd like to have a mod edit the 2nd option to read "Yes! We need to HELP stabilize the region with US and Coalition troops."

Thanks in advance.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Lqskdiver
I'd like to have a mod edit the 2nd option to read "Yes! We need to HELP stabilize the region with US and Coalition troops."

Thanks in advance.


You didnt say please ;)

[LoungeMachine]

Are there any "coalition" troops left?

[LoungeMachine]

I'm about to watch the Documentary WHY WE FIGHT.

I'll answer this poll when I'm done :cool:

[Lqskdiver]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
Are there any "coalition" troops left?

Now that is a good question. I'd say a small minority, but can't be sure since there were so little to begin with. :rolleyes:

I think some brits are still there. I'll have to check.

Still, the purpose of that question is not to isolate the US solidarity but involve our foreign brethren such as the Scots.

Sesh...you guys still know how to throw down, do you?

Oh and "thanks" for meeting my demands. ;)

[FORD]

The UK is about to pull a lot of their troops out. That's about the end of the so called "coalition". And they'll probably pull the remaining ones once Poodle is out of office, since I'm sure whomever replaces him won't want anything to do with this catastrophuck (as Jon Stewart has appropriately labeled it)

There's no way for US troops to "win" this thing. Why kill thousands more trying?

[Lqskdiver]

Originally posted by FORD
The UK is about to pull a lot of their troops out. That's about the end of the so called "coalition". And they'll probably pull the remaining ones once Poodle is out of office, since I'm sure whomever replaces him won't want anything to do with this catastrophuck (as Jon Stewart has appropriately labeled it)

There's no way for US troops to "win" this thing. Why kill thousands more trying?

So, that's one hearty NO, FUCK EM! Is that about right?

[FORD]

Yep. It's already a civil war, so why not make it a civil war without any dead Americans?

[LoungeMachine]

Although I don't like the "No, Fuck them" frame of the question, it is closest to my personal feelings, hence my vote.


We already "Fucked" them.

We will not be "fucking" them by leaving.

We will be "fucking" the PNAC gang, BushCO, The Military Industrial Complex, the BCE, and Chimpy's flacid legacy.

So on second thought, yeah

FUCK EM

[LoungeMachine]

Since this is Liquid Skindiver's poll, and he framed the questions, I'd like a clarification....


WHAT THE FUCK could you possible have meant by "stabilizing the region"

seriously. :cool:

[Lqskdiver]

Exactly what it means, Kip.

We stabilize and help control the violence by driving back the insurgents hiding in the red zones. We keep that area secure with the use of roadblocks and random inspections.

We then grant the Iraqi's the time to TRAIN UP their current militia and help in the increase in recruitment. As time goes by ranking promotions among their guard installs the proper leadership among the units. This helps morale and gives more purpose and gravitas to their militia. This will not quell all the violence, but it will help them stand on their own two feet.

I purposely chose those words to see if their would be a reaction among you. I had to get some clarification from FORD. And your initial hesitation makes me think if that really is how everybody feels.

I'm not just talking partisan..I'm talking about helping the good people of that region better their lives.

Just like you and me.

[LoungeMachine]

But when was the last time the region was stable?

and part deux of that question.....

How can you possibly expect to stabilize it after what we've done to it?

It's like taking your 9 iron to a hornet's nest, looking at the mess on the ground, and telling yourself they'll be much happier down there.

I'm just saying.....

We've blasted any hope of stability right out of the equation.

IMO

[LoungeMachine]

Don't worry....

The analogy police have already been alerted.

[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Lqskdiver




We stabilize and help control the violence by driving back the insurgents hiding in the red zones. We keep that area secure with the use of roadblocks and random inspections.

We then grant the Iraqi's the time to TRAIN UP their current militia and help in the increase in recruitment. As time goes by ranking promotions among their guard installs the proper leadership among the units. This helps morale and gives more purpose and gravitas to their militia.


This hasn't worked yet, so why will it work now?

Are we not using roadblock and random inspections?
Haven't we "granted them time" to train troops?


As to the morale and gravitas.............stop, my sides hurt.



Has any CON in here brought up the fact that according to your Chimp himself, we weren't even ALLOWED into certain areas due to Iraqi military, police, and politcal INTERFERENCE.

Just what the fuck kind of war are you guys running over there?

[Lqskdiver]

Originally posted by LoungeMachine
This hasn't worked yet, so why will it work now?

Are we not using roadblock and random inspections?
Haven't we "granted them time" to train troops?


As to the morale and gravitas.............stop, my sides hurt.



Has any CON in here brought up the fact that according to your Chimp himself, we weren't even ALLOWED into certain areas due to Iraqi military, police, and politcal INTERFERENCE.

Just what the fuck kind of war are you guys running over there?

Roadblocks and inspections are continual are working in the areas that they are being implemented. When you are talking of a populous of 6 million, it is a constant threat and risk.

When we first invaded Iraq the Coalition consisted of 315k strong. Now it's around 130k...less than half. The total of coalition casualties: 3900. That's over 1%. Pretty good figures compared to other conflicts.

AS for not being allowed into certain areas by the Iraqi military that would be the al Sadr Mahdi army who have infiltrated the Iraqi army.

That is sumbitches we need to kill.

[Nitro Express]

Let's nuke the oil fields and make them radioactive so nobody will fight over them anymore. LOL!

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Lqskdiver
Roadblocks and inspections are continual are working in the areas that they are being implemented. When you are talking of a populous of 6 million, it is a constant threat and risk.

When we first invaded Iraq the Coalition consisted of 315k strong. Now it's around 130k...less than half. The total of coalition casualties: 3900. That's over 1%. Pretty good figures compared to other conflicts.

AS for not being allowed into certain areas by the Iraqi military that would be the al Sadr Mahdi army who have infiltrated the Iraqi army.

That is sumbitches we need to kill.

You're living with a bag over your head --one filled with Kool Aid aether...

The typical counterinsurgency strategies are not working because THEY WERE IMPLEMENTED FAR TOO LATE by an army that was both understrength and incompetently led.

The only way to defeat the insurgency is too flood the country with light infantry that we don't have.

And most think that a "victory" means supporting Shiites as they repress the Sunnis and are backed by Iran, and of course fighting the death squad militias means fighting the Iraqi police which are really mostly the Shiite police and army, which seems to be the new US strategy...

Cut the losses, allow the Iraqis to break up their country into autonomous ethic enclaves and withdraw most US troops while leaving behind a reaction force split in Kuwait and "Kurdistan."

[Lqskdiver]

You're living with a bag over your head --one filled with Kool Aid aether...

So is that where you've been these past days...on a sugar bender. Lay off the narcs, Nick, they'll only do you worse.

But you are right about one thing...they were/are understrength. Which is why we can't flood the country with light infantry. Our forces were reduced to half since the start of the war.


And most think that a "victory" means supporting Shiites as they repress the Sunnis and are backed by Iran, and of course fighting the death squad militias means fighting the Iraqi police which are really mostly the Shiite police and army, which seems to be the new US strategy...

Unfortunately, the Shiites are after revenge after all those years of suppresion.


Cut the losses, allow the Iraqis to break up their country into autonomous ethic enclaves and withdraw most US troops while leaving behind a reaction force split in Kuwait and "Kurdistan."

It's the Iraqi losses that will most likely increase and ESCALATE this civil war. As it seems the consensus around here is FUCK EM by the rheoteric of this thread. Looks like Dems will play a bigger part in this by following along those lines.

Now I only wonder if the media will continue reporting the mounting death toll in that region if we do pull out prematurely.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Lqskdiver
So is that where you've been these past days...on a sugar bender. Lay off the narcs, Nick, they'll only do you worse.

Clever! The funny thing is that I'm the one reflecting the political reality and have been right all along.

You're the political anachronism defending positions that look just silly at this point...


But you are right about one thing...they were/are understrength. Which is why we can't flood the country with light infantry. Our forces were reduced to half since the start of the war.


Oh, I get it! It's all Clinton's fault now!

If only we had a gigantic Army ruining our economy, I mean we only spend 50% of the worlds total defense spending at the Pentagon as it is, we could have an idiot pResident settle his personal vendettas, enriching his cronies, and holding on to the past of fossil fuels...

So, you admit that Bush fucked his military by knowingly sending them to a battle that did not need to be waged?

Thank you for seeing the light.



Unfortunately, the Shiites are after revenge after all those years of suppresion.


Oh well, that's good! It's okay to support "Islamofascists" as long as their OUR pro-Iranian terrorists.

How farsighted and helpful...

Maybe we should nuke Turkey on behalf or Armenians everywhere?



It's the Iraqi losses that will most likely increase and ESCALATE this civil war. As it seems the consensus around here is FUCK EM by the rheoteric of this thread. Looks like Dems will play a bigger part in this by following along those lines.

'Fuck them?' We already did that by the multitude of blunders here.

What happened to the rhetoric of Iraqis "standing up for themselves?" "Freedom spreading?"

The truth is that the Bush Administration has suppressed any Iraqi talks of Nat'l Reconciliation that considers splitting up into three distinct nations --so they can hold them together into the appearance of a nation state that no longer functionally exists.

This would significantly reduce the civil strife as well as removing US troops from the role of propping up a Shia gov't and force the Shiites to make concessions to the Sunnis rather than hiding behind US infantry, armor and air power, as they do!


Now I only wonder if the media will continue reporting the mounting death toll in that region if we do pull out prematurely.

"Pull out prematurely?" What a Freudian nightmare of macho, face-saving dogma you are...

Like you give a shit? Do you even bother to read anything other than Cliff Notes for Right Wing Dummies, like on Darfor?

[Lqskdiver]

Geezuz, Nick, you wake pretty fucking early with a Hard On for the Republicans with guns blazing.

Wassamadda...haven't had yer cup of Joe...or Schnapps. Lighten up!

I'll respond to your post later.

In the meantime try to bring down the blood pressure by rolling a fattie. Here, I'll put some music on for you.




Buffalo soldier
------Bob Marley

Buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta:
There was a buffalo soldier in the heart of america,
Stolen from africa, brought to america,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival.

I mean it, when I analyze the stench -
To me it makes a lot of sense:
How the dreadlock rasta was the buffalo soldier,
And he was taken from africa, brought to america,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival.

Said he was a buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta -
Buffalo soldier in the heart of america.

If you know your history,
Then you would know where you coming from,
Then you wouldnt have to ask me,
Who the eck do I think I am.

Im just a buffalo soldier in the heart of america,
Stolen from africa, brought to america,
Said he was fighting on arrival, fighting for survival;
Said he was a buffalo soldier win the war for america.

Dreadie, woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!
Woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!
Buffalo soldier troddin through the land, wo-ho-ooh!
Said he wanna ran, then you wanna hand,
Troddin through the land, yea-hea, yea-ea.

Said he was a buffalo soldier win the war for america;
Buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival;
Driven from the mainland to the heart of the caribbean.

Singing, woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!
Woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!

Troddin through san juan in the arms of america;
Troddin through jamaica, a buffalo soldier# -
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival:
Buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta.

Woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!
Woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy! /fadeout/

[FORD]

Jah Rastafari!!

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[LoungeMachine]

LMAO

I'm serious...

Liquid Skindiver should mod this forum instead of WarNOT.

A Con with A Clue, a sense of humor, and some facts......

Beats the shit out of WarBOT coming by once every few weeks to tell us what a fucking shithole the forum is.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by Lqskdiver
Geezuz, Nick, you wake pretty fucking early with a Hard On for the Republicans with guns blazing.

Ha! Because I am one, or was one. I'm a registered Republican, that will be changing shortly...


Wassamadda...haven't had yer cup of Joe...or Schnapps. Lighten up!

I ate the fucking coffee with a spoon...:)

And it will be a while before I sip schnapps again...:(


I'll respond to your post later.

I'll await with bated breath...


In the meantime try to bring down the blood pressure by rolling a fattie. Here, I'll put some music on for you.

You know, I really need too. My blood pressure is up, my fucking bad cholesterol is up, my good cholesterol is down...







Buffalo soldier
------Bob Marley

Buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta:
There was a buffalo soldier in the heart of america,
Stolen from africa, brought to america,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival.

I mean it, when I analyze the stench -
To me it makes a lot of sense:
How the dreadlock rasta was the buffalo soldier,
And he was taken from africa, brought to america,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival.

Said he was a buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta -
Buffalo soldier in the heart of america.

If you know your history,
Then you would know where you coming from,
Then you wouldnt have to ask me,
Who the eck do I think I am.

Im just a buffalo soldier in the heart of america,
Stolen from africa, brought to america,
Said he was fighting on arrival, fighting for survival;
Said he was a buffalo soldier win the war for america.

Dreadie, woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!
Woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!
Buffalo soldier troddin through the land, wo-ho-ooh!
Said he wanna ran, then you wanna hand,
Troddin through the land, yea-hea, yea-ea.

Said he was a buffalo soldier win the war for america;
Buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta,
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival;
Driven from the mainland to the heart of the caribbean.

Singing, woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!
Woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!

Troddin through san juan in the arms of america;
Troddin through jamaica, a buffalo soldier# -
Fighting on arrival, fighting for survival:
Buffalo soldier, dreadlock rasta.

Woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy!
Woy yoy yoy, woy yoy-yoy yoy,
Woy yoy yoy yoy, yoy yoy-yoy yoy! /fadeout/

Ahhh, Marley singing about the Buffalo Soldiers (black calverymen that served on the plains...)

I need that fattie....


Originally posted by FORD
Jah Rastafari!!

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[LoungeMachine]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh


I need that fattie....

Need me to hook a brutha up? :cool:

[Nickdfresh]

I gotta get hooked up first!

:smoke:

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
The typical counterinsurgency strategies are not working because THEY WERE IMPLEMENTED FAR TOO LATE by an army that was both understrength and incompetently led.

The only way to defeat the insurgency is too flood the country with light infantry that we don't have.


If they were ever serious about any sort of victory this would have been done from jump.THIS IS THE ONLY WAY TO STABILIZE AND SECURE IRAQ.Even after the terrorist element is swept out,and the borders secured,the Sunni-Shiite conflict will continue.That can never be a mission for us.The problem with their own security (sunni police not protecting shiites,and vice versa)will have to reform itself,or we will never leave,and our military should never be used as a peacekeeping force for another country.
Passing by ammo dumps on the way in instead of securing them initially was a fucked up idea,too.Thanks,Rummy!Gee,where'd all them IEDs come from?
I know it's not a popular option,but it's the only one.Start the draft,I say.It's not about Bush anymore,it's about helping our overextended,undermanned military out of the worst situation imaginable.This time,NO DEFERMENTS.
If only they would have paid attention to what Gen.Shwartzkopf said in '97 about going into Baghdad.Fucking nailed it.

[FORD]

The only draft that will work is one based on a whole new "lottery system"....

The bigger bank balance your daddy has, the sooner your number comes up. Draft the rich first, and we'll see how long this insanity lasts.

If they try to get out of the draft, shoot them on sight for treason.

[Nickdfresh]

What we should be focusing on now is stopping the use of US servicemen to meddle in the Iraqi civil war. Take them off the streets and stop making them targets, and redeploy them to small forts along the borders and around Baghdad.

Then begin a gradual withdrawl...

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by FORD
The only draft that will work is one based on a whole new "lottery system"....
The bigger bank balance your daddy has, the sooner your number comes up. Draft the rich first, and we'll see how long this insanity lasts.
If they try to get out of the draft, shoot them on sight for treason.

I say it should be an equal opportunity type draft;18-40-until the military is built up to strength to deal with an Iran/NK scenario.One of the reasons I'm for it is:
1)The military can rebuild with a better quality soldier rather than lowering the standards of enlistment to meet quota.
2)We need the manpower NOW.Imagine what could happen should Iran or NK decide to make a move while we're already overextended.
3)No one "buys their way out".Belive it or not,I'm considering a "comeback"now that Dumbsfeld is out,but 20,000 isn't enough.they need more to execute that kind of operation.
should Iran fully commit to a military action on a wounded Iraq,I'll be going for sure.WE cant stick our guy's out there like this.

[StretchOnBass]

The IED's are now coming from Iran. They have to stop the flow there which they are doing a better job of now.

If they disarm the militias, we can go home. This has to happen. It is nutts seeing 16 yr olds with full auto machine guns and rocket launchers.

[StretchOnBass]

Another thing Rummie screwed up on is he didn't understand the mind set there. They are really tribal people. They have tribes and religious sects and follow that instead of a national mindset. That was a Big mistake.

We have to win this war. I hope we do.

[Steve Savicki]

We need to pull out yesteryear(s).

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by StretchOnBass
The IED's are now coming from Iran. They have to stop the flow there which they are doing a better job of now.
If they disarm the militias, we can go home. This has to happen. It is nutts seeing 16 yr olds with full auto machine guns and rocket launchers.

Not all of them.
Allowing Sadr City to exist is another mistake.

It's nuts allowing 1 AK per household,too in my opinion,but....

20,000 more is not enough-what do you think? Once ahmed is run out of an area,we have to occupy it. then another and so on. In every direction.

[Nickdfresh]

Originally posted by StretchOnBass
The IED's are now coming from Iran. They have to stop the flow there which they are doing a better job of now.

If they disarm the militias, we can go home. This has to happen. It is nutts seeing 16 yr olds with full auto machine guns and rocket launchers.

The IEDs are still mostly made in Iraq. And there is no way the Iraqi gov't is going to disarm what amounts to their only real, reliable security force..

We should negotiate with the the Sunnis to get rid of most of al Qaeda in Iraq, and leave...

[Nickdfresh]

And on CNN right now, they're discussing how we may well be training, and giving heavy weapons to potential enemies (The "Iraqi" Shiite gov't)...

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
And on CNN right now, they're discussing how we may well be training, and giving heavy weapons to potential enemies (The "Iraqi" Shiite gov't)...

Yeah, I saw itjust now. That is going to happen. I just don't see how we can stop Iran from taking over. Either overtly or just like they do with hezbollah in Lebanon. That's what they do. They've been doing it for my whole lifetime.

And we knew this... Don't fucking tell me Army strategists didn't foresee this.

[ODShowtime]

Originally posted by StretchOnBass
Another thing Rummie screwed up on is he didn't understand the mind set there. They are really tribal people. They have tribes and religious sects and follow that instead of a national mindset. That was a Big mistake.

We have to win this war. I hope we do.

You are correct on your first statement. But what is winning this war? What does that mean?

[Cathedral]

I am so non-political at this point but, I voted, "No, Fuck 'Em"...

Let them settle their own problems at this point, we can't improve the situation any more if it has improved at all from the beginning.

We are going to need our military in the near future and we will need it to be in top form not broken down as is the current state of things.
That region has been entrenched in battle for well over 6,000 years and nothing is going to change that in any less time i do honestly believe.
No government that is left there when we do pull out will stand anyway since it will only be seen as a puppet government run by Western Ideals and Interests.

My approval of the war was based on removing Saddam due to broken cease fire agreements from the early 90's and resolutions he failed to abide by. well, last i checked, Saddam was dead, game over, bring the troops on home with a banner that reads, "Job Well Done".

The rest of the job belongs to the Iraqi's, it's their country to raise up or let fall down, NOT our troops responsibility anymore, period.

As for the war on Terra?
That battle should have started in Saudi Arabia if you ask me.
Iraq and the Terra War are two completely seperate issues, and after the SOTU address it is clear to me that it is NOT clear to Bush.

May God Help Us All!!!

[hideyoursheep]

Yeah, they are a secular people that have been given their freedom from a tyrant for the first time, now they're going after each other AND us.Now Al-Qaida is trying the divide and conquer strategy neighborhood by neighborhood.Not the biggest problem,least till we leave.Then it's gonna take a sumbitch to run that sumbitch.Or we'll have to go back.
Winning in Iraq will be Iraq being able to police itself.You know the terrorist factions will claim victory regardless of the circumstances under which we index(end) the mission.

[hideyoursheep]

Originally posted by Nickdfresh
The IEDs are still mostly made in Iraq. And there is no way the Iraqi gov't is going to disarm what amounts to their only real, reliable security force..
We should negotiate with the the Sunnis to get rid of most of al Qaeda in Iraq, and leave...

The only reliable security force in Iraq right now is US-the IED problem has more to do with the numerous ammo dumps abandoned during the invasion than the new Iraqi security forces.Although the assholes are stealing it any way they can.
Al-Qaeda would see any negotiations between Arabs and the US as a threat to their existence.They would target their own people(and often do)for any kind of cooperation with the west.You don't understand how hardcore these people are.The average sunni wants nothing to do with Al-Qadea.They are hardliners against any type of relations with the west.You cannot negotiate with them.They represent themselves,not Sunni Arabs;That 's how all this shit got started-Saudi Arabia(sunni)financing the Gulf War and allowing US forces to remain in the region.It's why Bin-Laden was denied entry back to Saudi Arabia-Al-Qaeda is a threat to them as well.