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Pink Spider
04-28-2004, 02:33 AM
http://www.strike-the-root.com/4/hambidge/hambidge2.html

'They Hate Us Because of Our Freedom'

by Alfred A. Hambidge, Jr.

Whenever I hear “they hate us because of our freedom” or "because they hate our way of life" or some other such drivel, I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. If real people didn’t suffer the consequences of it, such ignorance would be amusing. But another annoying thing about statements like these is that they perpetuate the myth that we live in a land of freedom. The sad fact is, we are not free, and haven't been for a long, long time.

In They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45, Milton Mayer wrote about how the German people kept believing they were still free while the Nazis were tightening their control and extending their power over every facet of life. At first people refused to see the obvious, because the infringements on their freedom were coming in small steps. Each of those small steps, on its own, seemed to be no big deal, nothing to rebel against. But by the time you could no longer ignore the big picture, it was too late. “Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven't done (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing) . . . You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.” Remember, all the people had to do for all that to happen was--nothing. The same phenomenon is happening right here, right now, in the U.S. of A. It had been proceeding at a slower rate than 70 years ago in Germany , but now the pace quickens.

I know there are some who will say, “Wait a minute, fella. You’re going too far. The U.S. of A. is still a free country.” O.K., then. If you’re free, you should have no trouble doing something that people have done for time immemorial. Buy a cow, shelter and feed and care for it, milk it, and sell the milk. Go ahead, try it and see what happens. Come back and let us know how free you are to do such a simple thing, which has been done since the dawn of civilization.

Freedom is a state of being where an individual does not have to get permission in order to do something that harms no one else’s person or property. How many things can you do without getting some form of government permission? Can you build your house on your own property without obtaining government approval? Can you put a new room on your house? Or a new porch? Put in a new toilet? Or even put a shed in your backyard? If you are not free to make your home on your own property, you are not free.

Once you have that home, can you refuse to sell it to the government if they want to use your land for some other purpose? Can you make them go away simply by telling them, “I will not sell you my property, at any price!” If you are not free to choose if, when, how, to whom, and for how much you will sell your property, you are not free.

Can you drive a motor vehicle across this “free” country without someone in government approving of you as a driver? Or without getting government permission to use that vehicle on the roads? If you are not free to travel without permission, you are not free.

Can you buy a pistol without government permission? Can you drive across the country with it on your person, even if you have permission to drive a properly permitted vehicle? There’s a man, a good man from what I’ve heard, who got in trouble in Ohio for doing just that. And I’ll bet there are many more good people that I haven’t heard of who wound up in similar trouble. Let’s remind them how free they are. Could anyone even ride a horse cross-country, with an old Winchester rifle in a scabbard, without being hassled? If you are not free to have a firearm at hand for self-defense, no matter where you go, you are not free.

Are you free to say to the government, “I don’t like your retirement plan; therefore, I will no longer pay for it?” Can you, without penalty, tell the government that you will no longer pay for subsidies, for regulations, for wars, for empire, or for any activities that you disapprove? If you are not free to refuse to pay for things that you do not want, you are not free.

If the government decides it needs more troops to build and maintain its empire, can you refuse to go if it calls for you? Will they leave you alone if you tell them you won’t kill and die for them? Can you simply ignore the draft, without consequence? Can you refuse to be a conscripted slave? If you are not free to tell the government “Hell no, I won’t go!” you are not free.

Can you open a business, like a simple barbershop, without government permission? Or how about a bakery? A diner? A hot dog stand? A gun shop? It’s been said that before we invaded Iraq , there were more gun shops in Baghdad than in Washington D.C. Can you wire or plumb or fix TVs or cars without a government license? If you’re not free to make a living without getting permission, you are not free.

And once you have government approval to open a restaurant or bar, are you free to decide what people may do within your business? Can you choose whether or not they may smoke on the premises? Are you free to invite them to light up and enjoy a cigarette, a cigar, or a pipe with their drink, or after their meal? If you are not free to decide what people may or may not do on your property or within your business, you are not free.

Are you free to smoke a joint? Are you free to hire someone to help you satisfy a physical urge? You can do both in the same afternoon in Amsterdam . I haven’t heard of anybody attacking the Dutch because of their freedom. If you are not free to entertain your mind and body in any way that does not harm another, with anyone who is willing, you are not free.

Can you undergo any medical treatment you think is in your best interest? Can you use whatever drug you deem appropriate for your condition? Can you even get some marijuana to help you avoid nausea so you can keep your meds from coming back up? Can you get it just to feel a little better for a little while? If you are not free to pursue any treatment or use any substance you think might help you obtain, regain, or retain your health, you are not free.

Are you able to criticize political candidates by name? A week before the next election or primary, place a newspaper or TV or magazine or radio ad criticizing a candidate. Let us know how you fare. The Supreme Court says it’s okay to make that a crime. If you are not free to talk about politicians at any time, at any place, by any means, in any form, you are not free.

Can you take your children out of a government or conventional private school setting, without explaining to some bureaucrat how you plan to educate them? Can you homeschool them without getting government approval of your lesson plans? Can you tell everyone to buzz off, that it’s none of their business how or if you educate your kids? If you are not free to teach your children what you want, where you want, when you want, and how you want, you are not free.

So, let’s reiterate. You need government permission to make your home, travel, earn a living, defend yourself, obtain medical treatment, and educate your children. You will never get government approval for many of those things in many places. You will never get government permission to entertain your mind and body in unapproved ways. At certain times, you cannot criticize those who decide who and what gets approved. You must sell your property to the government if they want it, and you must kill and die for them if they tell you to. And you have no choice but to pay for it all anyway, whether you like it or not.

And still, we think we are free.

Al Hambidge morbidly watches the Rise of Empire, wondering why so many are admiring the emperor’s new clothes.

ELVIS
04-28-2004, 04:48 AM
Go jump off a bridge you mindless twat.. you're free to do that...

What do you want.. a rule free society ???

Get real...

:elvis:

Pink Spider
04-28-2004, 09:31 AM
You have missed the entire point of the argument which leads me to believe that you don't understand it.

There are absurd rules out there that don't have any benefit to society at all. Just to make the rich richer and the poor poorer, to throw harmless people in jail and curb dissent. Do you not agree with even the most conservative parts of the article or do you disagree with it all because parts of it were *gasp* a little left leaning?

And by the way, if you want to be a moron and insult me in every post feel free, you rhinestone jumpsuit wearing dumbass.

BigBadBrian
04-28-2004, 09:41 AM
Pinky, quit spamming the board with this Leftist drivel. :gulp:

Pink Spider
04-28-2004, 09:49 AM
I'm trying to figure out who's the bigger mental fuck-up. You or Elvis.

Were either of you dropped on your head as children? Perhaps something to do with paint chips? Mothers on crack? Clue me in.

FORD
04-28-2004, 10:01 AM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Pinky, quit spamming the board with this Leftist drivel. :gulp:

"Leftist drivel"??

No, the author here is clearly a right leaning libertarian. And while I don't agree with everything he says, he certainly makes his point. Everything the author lists is easily verified, and he doesn't even really go into shit that's been done since the "patriot" act was written.

And indeed if you open your fucking eyes and look at the big picture, it ain't pretty.

Cathedral
04-28-2004, 10:22 AM
I can agree with some of the points made in that article, but it is going to the extreme because a society without laws is an Anarchist Society.

Laws are there to protect people and their possessions. what the dude is missing is the reason for having laws. Remember the Wild West?
Lawless Towns were ruled by fear and run by a small time dictator.

You need permission to build on your property to ensure that you don't shelter your family in a shack that will crush them if a swift wind passes by.
They're called building codes and they are for your own protection.

Food Service Establishments have codes as well so they don't end up killing you with food poisoning.

I can buy and wear a gun where I live so I have no issue with that, and I can place my shotgun across the window in my truck and drive across the country without being hassled.

Driving is NOT a right and you can set out on foot and walk any damn place you feel without needing any permits of any sort.

I'm self employed and i didn't need a permit to be allowed to do so, but I do have to pay my taxes and I do every year without hassle.
Now if I wanted to hire someone to work for me then I have to make provisions for their security, I got no problem with that because I would want the same from my employer.

Bitching because you can't smoke in a bar is stupid because second hand smoke does hurt people and there are those who choose not to smoke, the problem is the lack of consideration by smokers for those who don't and some who are alergic to it, they do exist ya know?

I have family that still milks cows and sells the milk so that whole deal makes no sense to me. If you have it processed properly it protects those who purchase and consume it from getting sick and therefore there is nothing illegal about it.

I have never seen the government pay someone less than what their land is worth. in fact in my experience they have always made a more than generous offer for such property here in Ohio. and if you put up a fight, 9 times out of 10 they increase that offer to up to 10% over market value. That was the case with my brother when a Highway under construction decided its best route was through his living room... He was glad to sell and get that extra help from the government on getting a better deal on a better home...It's all in how you work the deal and people do have options, staying unfortunately isn't one of them. But in the same breath I'll we still have it better than the Indians did some time ago.

There is no draft at this point in time, and I don't see it coming back any time soon. But if it did you do have the option to live in another country where life is a bit harder. But having some pride in your homeland shouldn't be a burdon and giving your service and life if needed is not to much to ask for the freedoms and security we all enjoy. It isn't free for anyone.

Pot and Hookers, now there is a conflict of interest... I have never had any trouble getting high and i never had any need to pay for sex when it is free to those who look in the right place.
You can grow pot in your own home and unless you start selling it to the local scum of the neighborhood, you will most likely never have any issues with the government. (worked for me)
getting high is not against the law, unlawful distribution is.......

From where I sit, I am pretty damn free in this country...

ELVIS
04-28-2004, 10:28 AM
Thank you Cat.. a voice of reason...

Cathedral
04-28-2004, 10:40 AM
I don't know how reasonable it is, but I don't believe the author of the article is thinking realistically.

We wouldn't have lasted over 200 years if our society was based on where he was headed, but i did see his point.

It leads me to what seems like a joke but it is a fact, Freedom is not free to acquire and it does have a pretty hefty price as history has dictated.

The Patriot Act is another issue that I am not real fond of, basically because of the way it was implemented and how it has been used in some cases. I am still waiting for those revisions we were promised at the beginning of it.

ELVIS
04-28-2004, 10:49 AM
Well.. Pinky and FORD can leave to find their free freedom...

I'm enjoying mine...

Dr. Love
04-28-2004, 11:01 AM
It's been my experience that libertarians and liberals put a lot more stock in an 'ideal world' than the real world.

Then again, so do a lot of conservatives.

In any event, I agree with the first line in the article, but only because I seriously doubt anyone hates us because we're free to do what we want. More likely they hate us because we can (and do) push them around (regularly).

Cathedral
04-28-2004, 11:02 AM
Freedom without a price does not exist.
While you can buy and smoke pot in an establishment in Amterdam, there was no mention about what happens to those who are busted using it outside on the streets......

Life in Prison and even a penalty of death from what i understand are possible consequences.

Our drug laws are lax compared to that scenario.

Cathedral
04-28-2004, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Love
It's been my experience that libertarians and liberals put a lot more stock in an 'ideal world' than the real world.

Then again, so do a lot of conservatives.

In any event, I agree with the first line in the article, but only because I seriously doubt anyone hates us because we're free to do what we want. More likely they hate us because we can (and do) push them around (regularly).

Actually, they hate us because we leave dictators in power, do deals with them and have no thought about the suffering citizens of their countries.
They hate us because we have the power to make their lives better and do nothing, nothing but push them around, lol.

lms
04-28-2004, 12:18 PM
Freedom is just another word for nothing left to loose. Do we really want to be free? Everything in life has a price-everyone has to decide how much they are willing to pay. But, being an American is not what it used to be.

A college degree used to be worth more than being bilingual. Have you worked in the schools. We teach English as a SECOND LANGUAGE. (WE DO NOT EDUCATE ENGLISH SPEAKING PEOPLE TO BE ABLE TO EXIST IN A BILINGUAL WORLD until at least junior high, and then it is optional, and as a person who took spanish in Junior High and again in College, I still am unable to communicate with the majority of the hispanic speaking individuals I need to-WHY...because they do not desire to communicate with me!-more benefits are received as the result of being unable to communicate. In the community where I live there are schools composed totaly of spanish speaking children. All school work is printed in spanish. All books are in spanish. My last name is Smith. I cannot tell you how many times I have received notes from school in Spanish. When I call the school to explain that I do not speak spanish and would like to receive notes in English I was told that they had simply "run out" of the English notes. I AM NOT AGAINST IMMIGRANTS! This county is born of people who immigrated here to make a better life for themselves and their families, because they wanted to be AMERICANS. Not because they wanted to come here and change the rules to fit what their society before coming here believed. This county was founded on people coming here because they wanted what our forefathers believed in.


At 16 it is perfectly legal to decide to have intercourse which can spread disease and produce an illegitimate child-but you cannot marry the father of that child without parental permission until you are 18. At 18, you can die for your country, but you cannot buy a drink until you are 21. What does this say about our values?

What kind of law requires you to have a drug tax stamp, and then arrests you if you follow the law and obtain one? Why do we have so many laws on when and where you can smoke, and who you can subject second hand smoke to-but yet smoking is still a major money making industry-and perfectly legal. Why is it legal for people to go into a bar and drink, but then can be arrested simply for "public intoxication". And believe me-this one gets abused more than you would imagine. It is called legal harrasment. There are many forms. You just do not understand the judical system until you become involved in it. Trust me, at that point it is to late to begin complaining about what ever happened to your rights. You are just a disgruntled citizen.

Another true story on schools. My American History final at college was given as an oral exam. Why-becase the teacher had been reprimanded for discrimination. It seems that it is discrimination against people who are unable to read to have a written test. No Shit. And this is college. The only thing people are willing to pay for and not get-an education.

My 15 year old daughter was sent home from school for wearing the american flag on her shirt. It caused problems for the "ethnic groups" on campus and incited racial violence. We have a latin club, a hispanic club, an african american club, an asian club, a spanish dance club, chess club, art club, rap club, etc. but we cannot have an American Club-or a Prayer Group? There are scholarships for the above listed minorities-they are perfectly acceptable-and these are awarded to people of the race designated, EXCEPT FOR WHITE PEOPLE-that would be discrimination. (I live in a town that is 64% hispanic-but they are still considered a minority?)

You should further see Al Hambridges site and read "The Wall". Unless you have ever lost someone in a war, or tried to live with them when they came home from one, you can never appreciate how much its "costs" to defend this country. And you cannot begin to understand how little what we fight over really matters.

I agree with you Pink Soldier.

John Ashcroft
04-28-2004, 12:30 PM
I'm free to bang your girlfriend...

ELVIS
04-28-2004, 12:45 PM
Pal...

Cathedral
04-28-2004, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by John Ashcroft
I'm free to bang your girlfriend...

Or wife................

Mr Grimsdale
04-28-2004, 03:49 PM
or gerbil

er...

Ally_Kat
04-28-2004, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by lms
My last name is Smith.

*falls over from shock* I met one I'm not related to!


At 16 it is perfectly legal to decide to have intercourse which can spread disease and produce an illegitimate child-but you cannot marry the father of that child without parental permission until you are 18. At 18, you can die for your country, but you cannot buy a drink until you are 21. What does this say about our values?

i could be wrong, but I do believe the drinking one is for health reasons. Something about the liver being fulled developed around 21 or something like that. It was a while ago when I learned that.

And for the kids being legal to choose to have sex -- dude, kids are going to go and have sex if they want to. This is where parenting comes in to ensure that if the kids decide to go that route that they know how to prevent disease or pregnancy, unless, of course, you propose we make a legal sex-age act. Virginity for all until 21! :D I know a lot of fathers would probably like that.



My 15 year old daughter was sent home from school for wearing the american flag on her shirt. It caused problems for the "ethnic groups" on campus and incited racial violence.


And you live where? Dude, I would have so called the double-standard card and had them remove all flag from the school then (just to be a bitch). And if you were met with resistence, then I would have gone to some local political figure. Everyone here is flag happy and says shit to nobody about the flag the other guy has.

ELVIS
04-28-2004, 05:18 PM
Kick his ass Ally !!

:elvis:

Cathedral
04-28-2004, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Ally_Kat
[BAnd for the kids being legal to choose to have sex -- dude, kids are going to go and have sex if they want to. This is where parenting comes in to ensure that if the kids decide to go that route that they know how to prevent disease or pregnancy, unless, of course, you propose we make a legal sex-age act. Virginity for all until 21! :D I know a lot of fathers would probably like that. [/B]

Amen Ally...
I am one father who would love that, lol...But it wouldn't be right and I don't want the government sticking their nose in it.

As a parent it is my job and my job only to teach my daughter proper values and morals.

ashstralia
04-28-2004, 06:12 PM
Can you wire or plumb or fix TVs or cars without a government license? If you’re not free to make a living without getting permission, you are not free.



mate, you can use the pot-smoking unlicenced electrician if you want,
but i'll stick with the trained one.

BigBadBrian
04-28-2004, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral

As a parent it is my job and my job only to teach my daughter proper values and morals.

Exactly, no matter how much FORD thinks sex ed in schools should be mandatory. Good going, Cat. :gulp:

Dr. Love
04-28-2004, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Exactly, no matter how much FORD thinks sex ed in schools should be mandatory. Good going, Cat. :gulp:

I completely agree. So then parents are the foundation of our moral culture, and we shouldn't depend on the school to teach our kids right from wrong.

Or churches.

Right? ;)

Ally_Kat
04-28-2004, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by ashstralia
Can you wire or plumb or fix TVs or cars without a government license? If you’re not free to make a living without getting permission, you are not free.



Dude, I don't want someone playing around with my electrical, my plumbing, or any electronics unless they know what they are doing. I don't see having to obtain a license as limiting freedom. People who don't know how to do something like that up to set standards shouldn't be allowed to publically offer their services. And it has nothing to do with not being free. It has everything to do with public safety.

My brother is going to Aviation High School to become an aeromechanic. If he doesn't pass his two FAA license tests, which ensures that he is capable enough to work on the plane you might ride one day, would you say that that is the gov't keeping him back and preventing his persuit of happiness? As much as I love my brother, I would say that that was the FAA keeping my ass safe, because if he fucks up -- plane crash.

If that doesn't make sense to you, think of it this way. Do you want just anybody to get behind the wheel of a car and drive around with no insurance that they know what the different signals and signs mean, or how to even operate a car safely? I hope not as that would surely be a fatal accident waiting to happen.

Ally_Kat
04-28-2004, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Love
I completely agree. So then parents are the foundation of our moral culture, and we shouldn't depend on the school to teach our kids right from wrong.

Or churches.

Right? ;)

well hun, for the church thing -- if a child is attending a church or a religious-based school, then I would think that the parents approve of and agree with the message promoted by said religion and were probably most likely to try to install similar values into their child.

BigBadBrian
04-28-2004, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by Ally_Kat
well hun, for the church thing -- if a child is attending a church or a religious-based school, then I would think that the parents approve of and agree with the message promoted by said religion and were probably most likely to try to install similar values into their child.

Ally 1
Doc 0

Cathedral
04-28-2004, 10:07 PM
My child attends a Christian School so I pretty much have control over what she is exposed to.
As for sex education, she is only a 3rd grader so that is a couple years away for now.
I do have my message already and it will be the same one as my older daughter had....ALL MEN ARE SCUM AND ARE OUT FOR ONE THING, AVOID IT AND IF THEY PERSIST, USE THE MARTIAL ARTS UNCLE GARY IS TEACHING YOU TO CONVINCE THEM OTHERWISE.

I held nothing back and was very open with Tabs. She was a very decent girl and made me proud to be her father.
Tara on the other hand is as hard headed as I am, thinks she knows it all and will be more likely to learn from mistakes as opposed to thinking before making them. So, I am making real sure she knows the consequences of her minor mistakes now and not being so protective of when i see them coming her way.
She is going to be a challenge for me and I can see it coming already.

She's sneaky too, lol.....Just like Daddy...

Dr. Love
04-28-2004, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Ally_Kat
well hun, for the church thing -- if a child is attending a church or a religious-based school, then I would think that the parents approve of and agree with the message promoted by said religion and were probably most likely to try to install similar values into their child.

Don't mind me. I'm just needling 3B because he isn't saying anything more on it than "I'm wrong" on the whole thing. Like many people here, not all the content I post is reflective of my personal views at all.

Dr. Love
04-28-2004, 10:44 PM
Originally posted by BigBadBrian
Ally 1
Doc 0

Predictable. ;)

knuckleboner
04-29-2004, 12:35 PM
Originally posted by Cathedral

You need permission to build on your property to ensure that you don't shelter your family in a shack that will crush them if a swift wind passes by.
They're called building codes and they are for your own protection.



not just protect the people who live there, cat. it protects the firefighters or EMS techs who may have to go in to save you. it also protects the people who you invite into your house who might not know if you built a shoddy dwelling or not.


this article was written by an idiot. he has no concept of how a society works.

for instance, he mentions that not letting anyone who wants to drive, drive on our freeways without licensing is not letting people travel.

uh, dumb. they can buy a plane ticket. they can buy a train ticket. they can hitchhike, or get a licensed friend to drive them. or they can walk. they're fully allowed to travel. he just doesn't like that we don't let 5 year olds drive. or the blind. or the mentally challenged.

why not? because your freedoms are fine, so long as they aren't harming somebody else's freedoms, like some blind 10 year old who kills me because he shouldn't have been driving.

society is a balance between laws that restrict the individual "freedoms" available in anarchy in order to protect the general rights of everybody else.

is America perfect on the balance? probably not. it's not a perfect world. there are laws i'd change. like the drug laws. so what, though? there are ways to change those laws.

in America, you have the right to choose where you live, what job you have, what you buy, who your leaders are and where you go. and most importantly, if you realize that you can't live in an orderly society, so you have the right to move you, your family and your wealth and get the hell outta dodge.

but we have the right to let the door hit you on the way out.

ELVIS
04-29-2004, 01:18 PM
Nice...;)

Seshmeister
04-29-2004, 09:27 PM
Being naive must be comforting.

Cathedral
04-30-2004, 02:05 AM
Originally posted by knuckleboner
not just protect the people who live there, cat. it protects the firefighters or EMS techs who may have to go in to save you. it also protects the people who you invite into your house who might not know if you built a shoddy dwelling or not.


this article was written by an idiot. he has no concept of how a society works.

for instance, he mentions that not letting anyone who wants to drive, drive on our freeways without licensing is not letting people travel.

uh, dumb. they can buy a plane ticket. they can buy a train ticket. they can hitchhike, or get a licensed friend to drive them. or they can walk. they're fully allowed to travel. he just doesn't like that we don't let 5 year olds drive. or the blind. or the mentally challenged.

why not? because your freedoms are fine, so long as they aren't harming somebody else's freedoms, like some blind 10 year old who kills me because he shouldn't have been driving.

society is a balance between laws that restrict the individual "freedoms" available in anarchy in order to protect the general rights of everybody else.

is America perfect on the balance? probably not. it's not a perfect world. there are laws i'd change. like the drug laws. so what, though? there are ways to change those laws.

in America, you have the right to choose where you live, what job you have, what you buy, who your leaders are and where you go. and most importantly, if you realize that you can't live in an orderly society, so you have the right to move you, your family and your wealth and get the hell outta dodge.

but we have the right to let the door hit you on the way out.

Hey, I agree with you...I was just getting tired of listing everything that was on my mind, lol. Believe me, there were plenty of examples i wanted to list. Feel free to add many more because they are numerous.

knuckleboner
04-30-2004, 09:34 AM
nah, i wasn't trying to say you were off, i was just jumping on your bandwagon.

i, too, stopped at bitching about this idiot. cause i could've gone on quite a bit more as well on why certain zoning/building permit laws are beneficial to everyone. but why take all the glory? let somebody else jump in!